Radio 3Fourteen - G.I. Gurdjieff_ The Fourth Way

00:00:00.000 Thank you.

00:00:30.000 This is Radio 314 on the Red Ice Radio Network.

00:01:00.000 He is also the author of eight books on the Fourth Way and is the director, writer, narrator of the excellent documentary, DVD trilogy, The Life and Significance of G.I. Gurdjieff.

00:01:10.300 Patterson was a longtime student of Lord John Pentland, who was appointed by Gurdjieff to be the leader of the work in America.

00:01:17.240 And William is the founder director of the Gurdjieff Studies program.

00:01:20.780 For many years, he has led groups as well as given seminars and talks throughout the U.S.

00:01:25.220 We'll be discussing themes of the Fourth Way teaching, such as the idea that humans are not born with a soul, but must create and develop a soul through the course of his or her life.

00:01:34.160 William presents a different perspective on life, one that defies most teachings you've heard.

00:01:39.140 Welcome, William.

00:01:39.960 How are you this afternoon?

00:01:41.480 Very good.

00:01:42.140 Well, as founder director of Gurdjieff Studies programs, what personally drew you to the teachings of Gurdjieff?

00:01:49.200 Deeply, though I couldn't formulate it then, a desire for knowledge, why we were here, what we were doing here, what was of value, what was of meaning.

00:01:58.160 I remembered kissing my grandmother's forehead after she died, and it was called like stone, and it just went right into me, those questions.

00:02:13.080 But I was so young, but it created a question that then I could later formulate, is what I just told you.

00:02:20.340 For those who aren't familiar with Gurdjieff, can you give us a little background into how he became such an influential spiritual teacher?

00:02:26.460 Yeah.

00:02:28.160 Well, he was the, in my view, the seminal spiritual teacher of the last century, and probably the century to come.

00:02:37.360 He was born in 1872.

00:02:40.800 He died in 1949.

00:02:44.340 And in that time, he came to the whole sensation of himself.

00:02:50.600 Usually, we're just in a part of our sensation, but it was the whole sensation of himself, really vibrating.

00:02:56.720 He looked around, and he saw so much misery, confusion, and what have you, that he came to the question, what was the purpose of life on Earth, and human life in particular?

00:03:09.740 And with that, he set out with some like-minded friends.

00:03:14.040 They called themselves the Seekers of Truth.

00:03:17.520 They felt that the remote societies of the world contained, perhaps, the answers to these questions.

00:03:27.060 And this eventually led him to Egypt, and he was initiated four times in the Egyptian mysteries, and began to recognize that the science of being, the teaching that predates all teaching, was founded in Egypt.

00:03:46.520 And then, over time, it was dispersed northward, and then he took a second journey into the Hindu Kush, Tibet, India, Middle East, what have you, collecting the various pieces of the teaching.

00:04:04.660 And then he reformulated for our time, and he brought it to the West.

00:04:10.760 He came to the West in 1924, because he said, unless the energy of the West and the science of the East is harnessed and used harmoniously, the world will destroy itself.

00:04:27.160 So, he felt he needed to bring an esoteric teaching into the public domain, a teaching of self-development, of coming to genuine consciousness.

00:04:41.240 And this is what he called the fourth way, correct?

00:04:44.040 That's right.

00:04:44.800 There are three classical ways.

00:04:47.080 There's the way of the body, the fakir, the way of the heart, the monk, and the way of the mind, which is the yana yogi.

00:04:58.200 The fourth way combines all three.

00:05:02.400 We work on the body, the emotions, and the head simultaneously.

00:05:08.400 Now, he also taught that humans are not born with the soul, and they're not really conscious, but only believe they're conscious because of the socialization process.

00:05:15.800 And so, a person must create or develop a soul through the course of his life.

00:05:19.220 Can you talk about this?

00:05:21.160 That's right.

00:05:22.120 We've all been led to believe we have a soul, though the definition of a soul and the experience of a soul seems rather non-scientific.

00:05:35.180 His view was that we did not have a soul, and if we didn't create a soul in this lifetime, then when we died, we would just become fertilizer.

00:05:45.800 So, do we wake up through the creation process of making our own soul?

00:05:52.780 Because you talked about how everyone's in a state of a hypnotic waking sleep.

00:05:56.660 Man lives life in his sleep, and then he dies and sleeps.

00:06:00.460 That's right.

00:06:01.760 You can't wake yourself up because you're not an indivisible eye.

00:06:07.780 You're many eyes.

00:06:08.980 As it says in the Bible, man's name is Legion.

00:06:14.460 So, we're many eyes.

00:06:16.100 We're just not one.

00:06:17.920 We have to become an individual eye.

00:06:20.800 And in doing that, we create not a soul to begin with, but what he calls a Keshedan body,

00:06:29.420 then an emotional body, then a mental body, and finally the soul.

00:06:36.720 The good news is, if you just create a Keshedan body, then it's likely you can return. 1.00

00:06:44.040 Otherwise, there's nothing there when we die.

00:06:46.760 So, thinking of the many eyes, does man have any unity within himself?

00:06:54.600 It seems kind of schizophrenic then, doesn't it?

00:06:57.220 Well, we live in complete unity all the time because the body-mind basically adjusts immediately

00:07:06.880 to whatever thought, emotion, impulse we're having.

00:07:10.680 So, we live in a unison, but it's not an aware unison.

00:07:16.600 So, how would he view the collective?

00:07:18.920 A lot of New Agers talk about how we're all one.

00:07:21.640 What would he say to that?

00:07:23.860 Imagination.

00:07:26.900 Yeah, that makes sense.

00:07:29.080 It's like with Jungian psychology.

00:07:31.400 People talk about becoming an individual.

00:07:34.360 You have to know the other side of yourself.

00:07:37.320 If you're a male, you have to know the female side of a female, the male side. 0.70

00:07:42.720 Both sides become an individual in a Jungian context.

00:07:48.000 With Gurdjieff, it's coming to an awareness to first recognize,

00:07:52.480 I am not one eye, but many eye.

00:07:55.560 And they're all thinking different things.

00:07:58.860 Sometimes quite contradictory.

00:08:00.640 I have to have the key practices he brought to practice and verify this.

00:08:08.720 Yeah, kind of, one of his sayings was, life is real only when I am.

00:08:12.620 I am, you are, we all are, that, and that is, correct?

00:08:16.100 Life is real only then when I am.

00:08:19.980 Right?

00:08:20.420 It should be, basically, I think, life is real only then when I am, capital A, right?

00:08:29.520 Capital I.

00:08:30.920 And life is always real.

00:08:32.920 The problem is, I'm not real.

00:08:34.960 So, I wake up to higher and higher degrees of consciousness of sleep.

00:08:40.780 Wow.

00:08:41.340 So, people in their typical state function as unconscious automatons, as he said,

00:08:46.400 but one can wake up and become a different sort of human being altogether.

00:08:49.780 So, what kind of human being is that?

00:08:52.340 Well, we can cease to become a machine.

00:08:56.120 So, in doing that, we become, as he says, an image of God.

00:09:01.140 The only true thing, idea, that has reached us is that we are images of God, but we're undeveloped images of God.

00:09:12.060 So, we have to, like the old camera film, we have to pass through a solution and be hung out to dry.

00:09:19.180 And then, what is positive simply comes into view.

00:09:23.320 We're developed.

00:09:25.920 Gershaw focused on two main cosmic laws, the law of three and the law of seven.

00:09:30.820 Can you talk about this?

00:09:33.460 Well, the law of three, Trima Cosno, Trima Cosno, is the active, the passive, and the neutralizing.

00:09:43.480 We see this in Indian psychology with the Gunas, but there, they're static. 1.00

00:09:51.140 Here, the three forces, the active, the passive, the neutral, are all vibrating and changing places all the time.

00:09:59.520 Within us, and of course, in the outer world.

00:10:03.940 And then, there is the law of seven, which is an octave.

00:10:08.560 That everything to complete itself has seven movements, beginning with, for example, the musical scale.

00:10:18.180 Do, re, mi, fa, so, la, si, da.

00:10:20.540 The problem is that most people, in beginning something, they begin at a do, I want to do this.

00:10:26.100 And then, their will runs out, or they get interested in other things, so it's do, re, mi, an abortive octave.

00:10:34.360 So, we start so many things, and we never finish them, because we don't have the will and the awareness and the desire to do that.

00:10:42.500 So, it's managing the law of three within the law of seven, consciously, that allows us to complete projects, consciously.

00:10:53.860 Interesting.

00:10:54.920 Yeah, the fourth way also focuses on the ability to constantly perform what he called conscious labors, an intentional suffering.

00:11:00.920 So, what is intentional suffering?

00:11:02.460 Well, it's an intentional suffering when I withdraw myself from the hypnotism of life and the self-image that I'm living.

00:11:13.460 That can be a moral suffering when I see that I'm all self-image.

00:11:20.980 It's not the suffering that happens when you break your finger or you lose your boyfriend or something like that.

00:11:28.140 But, this is a moral suffering that I've been living, or what's been living me is the life of an imposter, the false personality.

00:11:38.500 And I begin to see, as he says, that I have to learn to be sincere.

00:11:44.580 Learn to be sincere.

00:11:45.620 We all think we're sincere.

00:11:46.720 But, to be really sincere is to move into the world of these different eyes and to see how the contradictions arise and what have you.

00:11:58.960 Yeah.

00:11:59.540 And what is conscious labor?

00:12:02.500 Conscious labor is when you do something intentionally from a point of view of awareness.

00:12:09.260 And that means you become embodied.

00:12:12.960 Most people are not embodied.

00:12:15.080 We look like we're here.

00:12:17.760 We feel like we're here when we're angry or in some extreme situation.

00:12:22.740 But, basically, where are we generally?

00:12:26.040 We're in our head.

00:12:27.800 We're commenting, talking about what?

00:12:31.020 About me, me, me, me.

00:12:33.720 So, it's to come into the body, to redirect the attention.

00:12:38.600 For example, right now, we might perform a little experiment.

00:12:41.960 If you're ready?

00:12:42.620 Okay.

00:12:43.660 Okay.

00:12:44.860 Where is your right foot right now?

00:12:47.920 It's crossed over my left leg.

00:12:50.940 Did you know that before?

00:12:52.560 No.

00:12:53.380 No.

00:12:53.740 I think I did in the back of my head, but now it's in the forefront of my head.

00:12:57.060 Oh, yes.

00:12:57.440 My legs are crossed.

00:12:58.300 You see, what happened when you recognized your legs were crossed?

00:13:04.980 Either you looked visually or you transferred your attention into your leg and recognized that's where it was.

00:13:13.820 We're so mental, we live out of the head, but if you now put your right foot on the floor and breathe into it, come to the sensation of the right leg.

00:13:28.760 Fill the right leg. 0.93

00:13:30.000 Fill the right leg with your attention and your breath.

00:13:32.460 And try to maintain that.

00:13:35.700 And we can go on talking.

00:13:38.240 I felt relaxed as soon as I did that.

00:13:41.360 That's right.

00:13:43.200 Exactly.

00:13:43.760 So does this have to do with the centers that Gurchieff talked about?

00:13:47.860 Well, this has to do primarily with the redirection of the attention into the body, out of the head brain, out of the hypnotism of life, into physical reality.

00:14:01.460 Your body and my body is here, but am I aware of it?

00:14:06.520 Is there a conscious sensation of this?

00:14:08.880 Usually not.

00:14:09.760 I am lost in thought, in imagination, fears, the future, historicizing, what have you.

00:14:17.860 So we live in a very mental world, and very few people are actually here in the body.

00:14:24.700 Once you're in the body, then we can talk about centers.

00:14:28.800 Up to that point, it's just a word.

00:14:31.860 So what about people that spend a lot of time meditating and they're actually out of their body?

00:14:35.800 Is this not a good thing?

00:14:36.860 To go out of your body is to be in your body and to have the body expand that you come to what is called the blank state in meditation, where there's just subject-object.

00:14:56.520 I might say before I say this, we think in perception that we're all living in subject-object perception.

00:15:05.460 But if I really examine myself seriously, I'll see my attention is either out of myself or in myself.

00:15:16.300 I'm either attracted to something outside or something has happened internally that has taken my attention.

00:15:23.100 So I'm really not in subject-object attention.

00:15:26.560 So through doing the meditation that we prescribe, you come into the body, you experience a subject-object perception, recognition,

00:15:41.740 and eventually you come down through the various material you're carrying, the memories, the things you have not digested,

00:15:52.260 to what's called a blank state, where there's just a subject, your consciousness, and the object that you are sitting.

00:16:01.900 If you can maintain this long enough, at a certain point, you'll have a double absence.

00:16:09.000 There will be no subject, there will be no object, and you'll be in total consciousness.

00:16:17.880 Yeah, well, this is interesting because if we are, like you've said, bioplasmic machines,

00:16:22.280 we're already programmed a certain way.

00:16:24.560 Is part of what you're explaining basically a deprogramming process to override the machine?

00:16:30.700 Absolutely.

00:16:31.860 It's to debrief the head brain and the emotional center of everything they're carrying,

00:16:37.240 and the same with the body itself, right?

00:16:41.360 Readjusting, re-educating the nervous system, the mind, what have you.

00:16:46.700 And I might say, you can't do this alone.

00:16:50.220 We live in a time when everybody wants to be their own teacher.

00:16:53.860 We're afraid of other teachers.

00:16:55.500 We've read all these stories and what have you.

00:16:57.340 If we are, in fact, all these different I's, then one I is going to teach me.

00:17:06.760 It's just an I.

00:17:08.820 I need a teacher.

00:17:11.900 But a lot of people, what they do is they read books and maybe listen to programs like this,

00:17:16.860 and they put together their own idea of what is being said,

00:17:20.800 and they just lock themselves into what I would call the esoteric I.

00:17:27.440 Oh, yeah.

00:17:29.180 I've seen that happen plenty of times.

00:17:32.340 All those people on grass or LSD who are talking about oneness, right?

00:17:37.980 Yep.

00:17:40.440 Oh, yeah.

00:17:41.180 They get under my skin, too, you know,

00:17:43.020 because I want to be an individual, true individual, separate and whole on my own.

00:17:48.880 Don't you?

00:17:49.300 Yeah.

00:17:51.080 No.

00:17:52.240 No?

00:17:53.440 So what do you want to be?

00:17:55.600 What I am.

00:17:57.240 Yeah.

00:17:58.940 Well, I feel like I am an individual.

00:18:03.220 So is that a delusion?

00:18:05.180 Well, Honeywood, I have to work on that.

00:18:08.700 I have to start there.

00:18:10.840 So, yeah.

00:18:11.940 Well, so then how does one begin this self-observation process?

00:18:16.820 That's a very good question.

00:18:18.100 First of all, if I am totally hypnotized, an automaton, an ongoing reality, where can I begin?

00:18:29.820 I can't begin there, can I?

00:18:31.160 Right?

00:18:33.100 Yeah.

00:18:34.120 So what is there?

00:18:35.880 What is there is what I have, which is my attention, my energy, and my time.

00:18:42.560 I have to learn to withdraw that from the ongoing hypnotic reality to myself.

00:18:49.480 And then when I'm ensconced within myself, I've come to physical reality.

00:18:55.140 Then I observe what is happening with me mentally, emotionally, instinctually, sexually.

00:19:03.020 And I will see that I am, in fact, not an individual, but an assemblage of various eyes, according to what is going on, internally and externally.

00:19:18.060 That has to be verified by everybody, because naturally everybody thinks they're an individual and awake and all of these ideas and have a soul.

00:19:27.620 So, it's a good crowd control.

00:19:32.800 What do you mean?

00:19:35.060 Well, by telling people that they are awake, that they have a soul, that they need to be societally adjusted and perform good works and so forth and so on, it makes for a society that's stable.

00:19:51.120 So, how does the new era of science play into this, then?

00:19:58.040 Are we just going deeper into the slumber?

00:20:01.800 In one way, we are.

00:20:05.120 Science is basically, it started, I believe, back in the caveman days, when someone observed lightning hitting a tree and a fire starting.

00:20:17.640 And so, they made an intuitive jump that if they could take two pieces of wood and rub them together, they might get far, which they did.

00:20:27.660 There had to be some experience like that that woke up the mind.

00:20:32.060 And from that point of view until now, it's been a constant waking of the mind to where we are now in the world of technology.

00:20:41.080 And it has marvelous powers.

00:20:44.040 It can do many things for us, take us many places and what have you.

00:20:48.700 But technology is not neutral.

00:20:51.780 It is reforming the way we think, the way we live, the way we use our energy, the way we relate to people, and so forth and so on.

00:21:01.460 So, we've created, in a way, just as we're the son of God, we've created the son of man, the robo-sapien.

00:21:09.800 They even talk about the robo-sapien having self-awareness now. 0.55

00:21:15.180 Now, it can't have the self-awareness I'm talking about, but it can demonstrate that to a degree that people might believe that.

00:21:25.380 So, it's really facing us with the age-old question, who am I?

00:21:32.060 Why am I here?

00:21:33.900 What's all this about?

00:21:36.300 And I've got to work with science, as well as myself, in terms of creating a Keshetan body, at least, a soul, hopefully,

00:21:48.860 so that I come to a deeper and deeper consciousness, of which technology plays its part, but it's not overriding me.

00:21:59.320 Otherwise, I will lose my spiritual potential and simply become a machine, a bioplasmic machine.

00:22:06.960 And that's the great danger we all live in.

00:22:10.760 It's already happened.

00:22:12.100 If I look around, I already see that.

00:22:14.480 That's right.

00:22:15.040 It's already happening.

00:22:15.880 And it's taking away one's identity.

00:22:20.660 The identity most people have is with the job that they do.

00:22:25.100 When you take away a person's job, what's their identity?

00:22:28.720 They're open to anything.

00:22:30.900 So, we seem to keep taking jobs away and people unemployed and so forth and so on.

00:22:40.140 There's going to be a reaction at some point.

00:22:42.380 And I wouldn't be surprised if we would see a coup here, but who knows?

00:22:49.380 What I wouldn't want to get involved with that.

00:22:51.820 What I would want to do is learn to work with technology by being present to myself.

00:22:58.040 So, I use technology and I'm not used by it.

00:23:01.080 And then we have the transhumanists and the apple crowd, which is basically developing a new religion. 0.74

00:23:09.100 Don't you see that?

00:23:10.320 Oh, yes.

00:23:11.040 Exactly.

00:23:11.600 I've talked about that.

00:23:13.180 That's right.

00:23:14.380 But what is the transhuman crowd?

00:23:16.900 I haven't heard of that.

00:23:18.180 Oh, yeah.

00:23:19.100 Exactly.

00:23:19.600 It's basically the idea of man morphing with machines.

00:23:22.760 Oh, yes.

00:23:23.520 Oh, okay.

00:23:24.200 Yes.

00:23:24.640 Oh, yes.

00:23:25.120 Trying to extend their life and upload their consciousness.

00:23:28.260 I don't know if that's actually going to happen, but they're trying.

00:23:31.200 The fact that they would even try seems to me to be a devaluation of the human being and his or her potential as an image of God.

00:23:40.300 But I think a lot of people who we affectionately call nerds tend to be so in their heads and so quick and look down on other people and just believe there will be no more crime or war if people could become robo-sapiens or transhuman beings.

00:24:01.640 That's not going to happen.

00:24:02.980 Do you feel, and how did Gertrude feel about this, that we actually need to have some kind of conflict in order to evolve?

00:24:11.860 Oh, definitely.

00:24:12.980 An angel can't evolve.

00:24:15.120 It has no struggle with itself.

00:24:17.080 It's pure goodness.

00:24:19.160 So a lot of these people that claim that Earth should be a utopia or we should be a socialist kind of society, what would Gertrude say about that?

00:24:27.300 He said Marxism is satanic.

00:24:32.080 That's great.

00:24:32.980 I feel that way, too.

00:24:36.820 Yeah.

00:24:37.880 Can you explain more about that?

00:24:40.100 Well, that's a long conversation, but Marxism is central control by government of human beings and their dealings.

00:24:51.680 Who is a government that's controlling and why?

00:24:55.600 It's going to control for power, its own power.

00:24:58.460 We see that in the Soviet Union right now.

00:25:00.680 Yeah.

00:25:01.520 Right?

00:25:01.980 Yep.

00:25:02.160 So democracy, if it's really practiced, we're actually living in, I would say, capitalistic democracy.

00:25:09.820 But if we really practice democracy, that gives us freedom to do and say what we wish to do, to try out new things and so forth and so on.

00:25:20.600 And that's all part of being a human being.

00:25:22.780 The problem right now is that there's so many soulless automatons.

00:25:25.880 So if that's the majority, the democracy calling the shots, then uh-oh.

00:25:29.660 Well, I die alone, I don't die with you or anyone else, I wish you the best, and I wish everyone else the best, but my concern primarily is with myself.

00:25:42.300 Now, the image of the self can extend to other people, but I first have to come to my own self.

00:25:49.380 Then whatever is happening in the outer world is happening in the outer world.

00:25:55.440 It's historical.

00:25:56.220 I don't want to get involved with it.

00:25:58.400 I can't affect it in any way other than by being present and receiving and transmitting energies of a higher level.

00:26:08.060 Instead of eating at McDonald's, I'm eating at a very fine restaurant with very good food, green and luscious and what have you.

00:26:18.960 And the people who eat at McDonald's, well, okay, you'll find out what happens.

00:26:26.360 Yeah, I know, Gertriff, he wasn't in favor of anything that claimed change by the masses because it had to be an individual effort.

00:26:33.940 So each individual eventually will make up the masses, right?

00:26:38.060 Exactly, exactly.

00:26:41.540 That his belief was that by really learning to be sincere, having a desire for knowledge, practicing the teaching he brought, which is a seminal, sacred, esoteric teaching that hails from ancient Egypt.

00:26:56.120 Not the Egypt we know, but the Egypt we don't know.

00:26:59.600 When we practice that, we begin to receive energies and transmitted energies on a very high level that affect the world around us and the people in it.

00:27:11.960 And in that way, we can have an effect.

00:27:15.320 And with myself and writing these books and videos and holding seminars and leading groups,

00:27:23.120 I'm hoping to bring the people who are with me to their own individuality so that they can go out and do the same for others.

00:27:32.440 If we go back to the ancient teachers in Egypt, where did they receive these truths, this knowledge?

00:27:39.240 Well, what I hear is, I can't verify this, but I think it's likely to be true. 0.92

00:27:47.300 This teaching is extraterrestrial, that when you really open up in a conscious way,

00:27:54.720 you can make contact with higher developed regions and a teaching can be given from there.

00:28:02.860 Look at all the teachings that have come to us, beginning with the Hindu, the slayer and the slain are one. 0.98

00:28:12.960 That's a very, very high teaching, all right?

00:28:16.040 But how to get there, right?

00:28:19.360 Then we have the Ten Commandments, right?

00:28:25.520 Judaism.

00:28:26.700 Then we have Jesus, love thy neighbor, resplendent love.

00:28:31.740 And then we have Muhammad, Allah is all, right? 0.99

00:28:36.020 Now, Gurdjieff comes and says, you have no soul.

00:28:40.460 No matter how intelligent you are or what you do or don't do, when you die, there will be really nothing crystallized, nothing there, and you will become fertilizer.

00:28:51.380 If you work on yourself, if you come to yourself, if you reclaim yourself as an image of God, then you will be working at a much higher level here on Earth.

00:29:03.660 And when you die, the crystallization will pass into the solar system and eventually become immortal within the solar system.

00:29:12.440 And you will do a great deal of good for yourself and for other people.

00:29:16.820 Your life will always have meaning because you have meaning.

00:29:21.720 Mm-hmm.

00:29:22.320 Yep.

00:29:22.600 So if the fourth way predates all religion, and we're just talking about extraterrestrials here, was mankind possibly seeded by an outside force on this planet?

00:29:34.480 Well, we're getting into speculation, and your speculation is as good as mine.

00:29:39.300 I would think so, but I cannot prove it, and I have no means of verifying it.

00:29:43.720 Yeah.

00:29:43.940 See, so I'm basically a scientist, young lady.

00:29:49.680 I always like to ask anyway.

00:29:51.820 Now, let's get into Gertriff's moon theory, because that's very interesting.

00:29:55.140 Do you know much about that?

00:29:56.980 The moon theory?

00:29:58.220 Yeah.

00:29:58.320 You mean the world 96?

00:30:00.800 He's talking about the ray of creation, and it all begins in the Holy Sun Absolute, and out of that come the three forces that we talked about earlier.

00:30:11.620 And they come into the world.

00:30:16.520 In the world, in the universe, is a substance, primal substance, called Okidanuk.

00:30:22.980 And these forces meet the Okidanuk, and they create a physical reality on their terms. 0.99

00:30:33.960 And, of course, the first physical reality is barely physical at all, but there is something there.

00:30:40.420 And then you come down through the ray of creation, down to our solar system with the sun and the planets, and then the earth, and beyond the earth is the moon.

00:30:54.840 The moon is the world 96.

00:30:59.740 The earth is world 48.

00:31:01.460 The astral worlds are 24, 12, and 6.

00:31:08.040 Most of us are living in world 96, the moon world.

00:31:12.120 And the moon world is highly dualistic.

00:31:16.340 And because it's highly dualistic, then there's going to be a lot of misery, suffering, war, and everything we see in the media.

00:31:25.340 It has to be that way.

00:31:27.020 Because we have not come to ourselves.

00:31:29.920 We're living out of ideas.

00:31:31.840 And the ideas are always partial and discriminatory, and there is a me and a you, and out of that comes jealousy, and so forth and so on.

00:31:45.040 Where did these numbers come from?

00:31:46.300 I don't know where the numbers came from.

00:31:50.520 The teaching that he brought gave these numbers.

00:31:56.900 So I don't know.

00:31:58.200 It's a very interesting question.

00:31:59.760 I don't know that we can know that.

00:32:01.800 But it's a way of speaking and understanding using numbers.

00:32:09.440 Numbers, as you know, you're a scientist yourself, right, are wonderful.

00:32:13.320 Yeah, that's right.

00:32:16.540 So let's talk about Gurchieff's influence over people like Blavatsky and Crowley.

00:32:22.300 Well, he had read Madame Blavatsky's book.

00:32:28.100 And when he was in Tibet, went to a number of places, into Hindu Kush, that she had talked about, and he didn't find them.

00:32:34.940 Her teaching went into psychic phenomena and more or less collapsed on itself, especially after Krishnamurti left.

00:32:46.600 Crowley visited Gurchieff once at the prairie, his center in France, and he treated him in a very hospitable way.

00:32:57.140 Remember, he's a person of the old world. 1.00

00:33:01.300 But when Crowley was leaving, he told him, get out of here. 1.00

00:33:06.280 You're filthy. 0.98

00:33:08.160 So that's what he thought of Crowley. 0.99

00:33:11.320 Because he had taken powers.

00:33:13.900 One of the problems in any true, authentic, spiritual endeavor is you're going to acquire power over yourself and then over other people.

00:33:27.880 How are you going to use this?

00:33:29.160 Are you going to use this egotistically or not?

00:33:33.240 Well, Crowley is a good face for using it, not in a good way.

00:33:39.460 And we see that then, of course, with Crowley's second lieutenant, L. Ron Hubbard, right, in Scientology.

00:33:46.120 Yep.

00:33:46.980 And what happened with Ospensky?

00:33:51.980 Ospensky was an old, old soul.

00:33:56.380 He had come here many, many times.

00:33:59.780 He had recognized that we live in eternal recurrence, that our lives happen over and over and over again.

00:34:09.460 And he apparently had tried many different ways.

00:34:15.080 And this time, he said he wanted, he was seeking a new or forgotten road, right?

00:34:22.320 In other words, he was aware of the three classical ways, the way of the body, the way of the monk, the way of the mind.

00:34:28.900 Apparently, I would think that he had tried them.

00:34:30.840 And while they gave results, they didn't give total results.

00:34:36.460 So, he was looking for a new or forgotten road.

00:34:39.640 And he went to India twice.

00:34:41.000 He came back.

00:34:42.600 He said, finally, he wanted a teaching of a more rational kind, where you didn't have to give up everything at once.

00:34:52.100 In these classical teachings, as practiced in India, you have to go away to an ashram.

00:34:57.720 You have to change your name here in the various monasteries and so forth and so on.

00:35:03.360 In the work, we accept everybody just as they are.

00:35:08.220 The life they're living is perfect for them, given their understanding of themselves and others.

00:35:13.680 What we want to do is take that life and let's look at it.

00:35:17.340 Let's see why I'm doing this or not doing that and so forth and so on.

00:35:23.600 And so, use my very life to awaken to what's real in me.

00:35:29.200 And part of that focusing your attention is also minimizing daydreaming, correct?

00:35:35.500 Absolutely.

00:35:36.820 And imagination of all types, other than creative imagination.

00:35:40.560 Now, Mr. Ospensky, he was Gurdjieff's main pupil in his Russian days, so we think.

00:35:53.540 But I'm now thinking that there are several others that are even higher than he was.

00:35:59.960 But he had a lot of problems with Gurdjieff.

00:36:03.220 Gurdjieff made demands on him to do otherwise.

00:36:06.640 And he felt they were unfair and became very confused, left the teaching.

00:36:15.340 Then he left the teaching, I think, in 1918, 1919.

00:36:19.240 Then he came back in Constantinople with Gurdjieff again.

00:36:24.700 And then he went to England.

00:36:27.620 And he was part of the prairie for a time.

00:36:30.920 And then he left once more.

00:36:33.200 He went out of his own.

00:36:34.760 He broke the teaching, the octave, and so much more powerfully had he not done that.

00:36:42.520 And he was a very sincere and decent man and a great seeker.

00:36:49.320 But he could not, well, as he said, he suffered from, you'll like this, extreme individuality.

00:36:56.820 And he could not break through that, unfortunately.

00:37:03.180 So I suppose, if he's right, he's coming back again.

00:37:08.660 According to him, eternal recurrence, you're going to be born on the same day, the same minute that you were born before.

00:37:16.760 And you'll go through it again until you begin to wake up to it.

00:37:21.320 And then you can pass on.

00:37:24.940 Hmm.

00:37:25.880 Interesting.

00:37:27.440 So the many eyes, the individual, the collective, help me clarify this.

00:37:33.000 When you say that we're not an individual, help me to understand that.

00:37:38.740 How am I not an individual?

00:37:40.180 Well, you're an individual in your belief.

00:37:45.220 But as an actuality, no, because you're not in the body.

00:37:50.880 How could you be an individual when you're not even in physical reality?

00:37:54.820 You're in the mind, in an image, supported by everyone else who thinks they're individuals.

00:38:01.760 And it's all sleep.

00:38:04.580 So we're having a shared dream where we're all kind of mind controlling each other?

00:38:08.600 Yes, of course.

00:38:09.560 So where are we then?

00:38:13.900 Where do we exist?

00:38:15.800 Well, you exist as an organic being, unconsciously receiving and transmitting the energies that come to Earth and procreating.

00:38:26.960 We're here to procreate, right?

00:38:29.860 Those people who don't procreate are, from nature's point of view, blanks. 0.96

00:38:36.740 I have not procreated.

00:38:39.560 Well, there's one out for you.

00:38:42.220 Mr. Gurdjieff says, if you're not in the work of procreation, then you have to create yourself through an authentic teaching that is the fourth way.

00:38:54.060 Now, he had seven children.

00:38:55.800 And wasn't it with seven different women, as I read? 0.96

00:38:59.120 Oh, I'm sure he had more.

00:39:02.700 So he was into that procreating.

00:39:05.800 Oh, he loved women. 0.97

00:39:09.020 Why not?

00:39:09.720 So, in his last esoteric message, he said, and this is a long time ago.

00:39:14.120 I mean, looking at today, I mean, this was prophetic.

00:39:16.640 He said, man is becoming a willing slave.

00:39:18.980 He no longer needs chains.

00:39:20.520 He begins to grow fond of his slavery to be proud of it.

00:39:23.840 And this is the most terrible thing that can happen to a man.

00:39:27.600 Hasn't this already happened to most of the planet?

00:39:29.760 If you look around, everyone's in that mechanical form of life.

00:39:34.400 Well, you know, I can't speak for eight billion people.

00:39:37.300 But I can certainly say to the degree people are interested and support the media that we know about.

00:39:45.840 You know, the crime, the politics, the war, all into that.

00:39:52.120 It's all imaginary.

00:39:54.100 And unfortunately, they're caught up in it.

00:39:56.180 And the people mainly who are attracted to the work are rebels.

00:40:01.140 They aren't completely hypnotized by the carrots of life and are wondering, as I said, what is life all about?

00:40:09.040 What is the meaning of life, right?

00:40:11.820 These are serious questions and questions that are age old.

00:40:16.740 And everybody should come to an answer for themselves, right?

00:40:19.980 Yeah.

00:40:20.520 Now, if we think of we're all procreating, what about the question of overpopulation eventually?

00:40:26.900 Well, usually nature takes care of that, don't they?

00:40:29.700 True.

00:40:31.120 That's true.

00:40:31.920 But, you know, the medical industry is trying to prevent that, not letting people die, barely keeping them alive with vaccines and medicines.

00:40:39.560 But then again, maybe all those things are killing them off, too.

00:40:41.900 Well, you know, in every new invention or discovery they can come about, they can come forth with, it always is going to solve this disease or that disease.

00:40:55.660 But that's how it's sold.

00:40:57.760 But it's also going to do a lot of other things, right?

00:41:00.940 Which will be basically taking our freedom away from us.

00:41:05.760 So how can we look at life in terms of energy if we want to shift our thinking?

00:41:09.800 Well, when you have sex, don't you experience energy?

00:41:16.220 Sure.

00:41:17.180 Okay. 0.87

00:41:17.940 Now, that's just physical sex, right? 0.97

00:41:20.520 Mm-hmm.

00:41:20.840 When you're really interested in someone, or they're interested in you, for one reason or another, you're experiencing their vibration, aren't you?

00:41:30.640 Yep.

00:41:30.900 And those vibrations are mixing.

00:41:36.140 They're being exchanged.

00:41:37.360 We live in a sexual world.

00:41:39.440 We're all sexual, right?

00:41:41.760 And some maybe more so, so they're stuck in that center as opposed to integrating the other centers, right?

00:41:47.460 Well, we psychologize it.

00:41:51.040 Sex doesn't need to be psychologized, right?

00:41:53.700 Sex is beautiful and wonderful, and as Mr. Gurdjieff says, it's a divine sacrament.

00:41:59.480 Because when two conscious beings enter into an exchange of substances, they will pass out of gender.

00:42:09.240 You'll no longer be a man or a woman. 1.00

00:42:11.500 You'll pass out of gender and experiencing divine sex, where you're not one or the other. 0.67

00:42:19.320 So gender neutral.

00:42:23.460 Bypassing gender. 0.57

00:42:26.080 So what were his views on psychology?

00:42:29.480 He did not have a very good view of psychology, because it was only working with memory, socially adjusting people to the ordinary.

00:42:43.900 The people who are psychologists aren't there.

00:42:47.820 They're there as Jungians, Freudians, Adler, what have you, or whatever they put together.

00:42:53.500 But they're not in the body.

00:42:56.540 And they are listening to people who are not in the body.

00:43:01.040 So it's all entertainment.

00:43:03.900 It's a whole lot of drama, usually.

00:43:07.020 Right.

00:43:07.320 You go to a psychologist or a therapist, the shrink, and you offload what is bothering you.

00:43:15.900 He or she listens, maybe gives you some pointers.

00:43:18.840 You leave, and you feel better, because you've offloaded all this energy.

00:43:23.720 But it comes back, and there you are again.

00:43:26.720 So as you begin to inhabit the body, mind, consciously, you open up to what you're carrying in the subconscious.

00:43:39.800 And that comes up in your consciousness, and you eat it.

00:43:46.380 And as you eat it, you weaken it.

00:43:49.100 And a lot of what we carry will just be destroyed forever.

00:43:52.980 Some things are strong enough to remain, but when they come up, then we use that as a reminder to remember ourselves.

00:44:02.180 So we clean out the closet, you might say.

00:44:06.040 I see.

00:44:06.940 Interesting.

00:44:08.840 So I also hear a lot of people talking about, specifically in the alternative fields and media, that they're pushing for this global shift in consciousness.

00:44:17.980 Is this even possible?

00:44:19.460 Is this part of our imagination or a delusion if we're not even in the body completely, and some of us maybe are even soulless?

00:44:27.660 That's true.

00:44:28.400 No matter what would happen if I'm not here in physical reality, I can take advantage of it, and I will certainly ego-fy it.

00:44:37.700 I'll make it dualistic.

00:44:40.940 So whatever I'm given, I am going to pollute, as long as I'm not here and taking conscious responsibility for myself.

00:44:51.180 You see, you don't have any responsibility until you're awake, because there's no choice.

00:44:56.220 Only when there's a choice, and I have the will to do right or wrong or go left or go high or whatever, am I responsible?

00:45:07.320 So one of the reasons I believe people keep themselves asleep is they don't want the responsibility.

00:45:13.840 Because if you're not here, whatever you do, what happens to who's not here?

00:45:21.140 You die, and you become merit fertilizer.

00:45:24.260 So that's it for you?

00:45:27.340 Game over?

00:45:27.840 You don't get to come back?

00:45:29.720 No, and why would you?

00:45:31.020 Yeah, well, that's how I feel.

00:45:32.540 If you're here, you have to honestly live.

00:45:35.160 Some people come here, and they just don't even live.

00:45:37.280 They don't even try to live their life.

00:45:39.780 They don't even know about it, right?

00:45:42.340 Yeah.

00:45:42.520 But if you look at the different teachings that were brought, you know, we started with

00:45:46.180 the Hindus, the slayer and the slain is one, right? 0.96

00:45:49.420 One.

00:45:50.520 And you go down through the Ten Commandments, and love, and Allah is one.

00:45:56.160 Look at all of those teachings.

00:45:57.680 They're all very good.

00:45:58.580 But here Mr. Gurdjieff comes and pulls the rug out from under the mall.

00:46:03.560 You have no soul.

00:46:05.320 You're not awake.

00:46:06.680 And you'll become nothing unless you work on yourself.

00:46:10.360 Here are the laws.

00:46:12.560 Here's the way crystallization happens.

00:46:15.100 Here's the practices.

00:46:16.900 Go for it.

00:46:19.060 That's never been given before.

00:46:21.860 Yeah.

00:46:22.920 It's esoteric knowledge.

00:46:25.080 But it also wasn't some of this knowledge, I think you said in one of your videos, basically

00:46:28.720 esoteric Christianity, a version of Christianity before Jesus Christ.

00:46:33.560 Exactly.

00:46:34.740 He was contemptuous of contemporary Christianity. 0.88

00:46:38.120 But esoteric Christianity is the foundation of the fourth way.

00:46:45.940 And it comes from ancient Egypt, only not the Egypt we know.

00:46:51.640 So there was a Christianity before the birth of Christ.

00:46:56.820 The Trinity was known before the birth of Christ, and love, and so forth and so on.

00:47:01.820 And then over time, things weaken or pass down and change forms and so forth.

00:47:09.640 So we're going back to the beginning with the fourth way, as amazing as that sounds.

00:47:16.480 Interesting.

00:47:17.040 But if we try it, we don't have to certainly believe that or anything I've said today.

00:47:21.900 The point is to verify it.

00:47:24.020 That's the foundation of the work.

00:47:26.900 So the foundation of the work is verification, which is scientific, which I believe then makes

00:47:32.520 us the teaching for this time.

00:47:35.440 Interesting.

00:47:36.740 Another thing that you said in your video that I thought was really interesting, you didn't

00:47:40.000 elaborate on it, but you said that we were pretty much dead pre-9-11.

00:47:44.060 Can you talk about that?

00:47:44.880 Well, you saw what happened with 9-11.

00:47:48.540 I mean, the churches were just packed afterwards, right?

00:47:51.940 Mm-hmm.

00:47:53.760 And then six months later, we were back to, quote-unquote, normal.

00:47:58.140 Yeah.

00:47:59.800 We were dead before, and we returned to being dead to ourselves, right?

00:48:04.240 Yeah.

00:48:04.960 We're functionally alive.

00:48:07.000 We have a functional consciousness, right?

00:48:10.300 But that's not awareness.

00:48:11.660 That's not the consciousness Mr. Gurdjieff is talking about.

00:48:14.880 Right?

00:48:15.580 Some people have a very high level of functional consciousness.

00:48:20.100 Right?

00:48:21.300 Look at, his name escapes me right now.

00:48:28.340 Oh, one of the co-founders of the DNA, Francis Crick.

00:48:32.440 Is that him?

00:48:32.740 Yeah.

00:48:33.040 Yeah.

00:48:33.160 Okay.

00:48:34.380 There he is on his deathbed.

00:48:36.920 He's still talking to his co-workers about experiments to perform, right?

00:48:43.680 He's still identified with his incredible mind, right?

00:48:48.300 And I understand that, you know.

00:48:50.380 But from the point of view of consciousness, he's still asleep, and he's going to die, right?

00:48:58.040 Yeah.

00:48:58.480 And he has this idea, I suppose, because he's such a great mind and discoverer, that he's

00:49:05.580 going to live after.

00:49:07.340 He's going to be fertilizer.

00:49:10.660 Very high for fertilizer, probably.

00:49:13.980 Good mind.

00:49:15.380 I'd like some.

00:49:18.840 So did he have this view about Darwin as well?

00:49:22.720 Oh, I don't know anything about him other than that.

00:49:24.700 Yeah.

00:49:25.260 Yeah.

00:49:26.320 Yeah.

00:49:26.720 Yeah, I was reading somewhere, I don't know if this is right information, but about the

00:49:29.780 moon collecting the souls of underdeveloped humans basically as food for the moon.

00:49:33.880 Is this correct?

00:49:34.820 Oh, yes.

00:49:35.520 Yes.

00:49:35.840 We will be food for the moon.

00:49:37.380 You have to go someplace, you know.

00:49:40.120 Yeah, because there's a lot of theories, too, that the moon was actually dragged and put

00:49:44.060 into its place.

00:49:44.860 It wasn't originally there.

00:49:47.220 Well, Mr. Gurdjieff believed that a comet hit the Earth and separated from the Earth two

00:49:53.320 moons.

00:49:55.340 One he called the moon, or a nullios, and another, which the science have just found out about,

00:50:03.440 called Tora.

00:50:04.620 It's a very small moon, and it comes around not too often.

00:50:10.280 But there are two moons, not one.

00:50:12.760 And it's because of a comet hitting the Earth, which I believe some people at Harvard, astronomers,

00:50:18.260 what have you, are beginning to recognize.

00:50:21.360 Does the fourth wave mention anything about humanity's ancient past?

00:50:26.320 Is there different forms of humanity that have been on the planet?

00:50:28.840 Yes, it does.

00:50:33.220 You know, we, Mr. Gurdjieff talks about the, well, he's talking about what we would know.

00:50:40.540 I think maybe you're using the word forms in a different way, which he does not.

00:50:45.440 He talks about past civilizations, but he doesn't talk about people being here with two heads

00:50:51.320 or three arms.

00:50:52.060 Well, in these past civilizations, were they more evolved?

00:50:55.420 Have we de-evolved?

00:50:57.160 Oh, yes.

00:50:58.080 Oh, yes.

00:51:00.020 Yeah.

00:51:00.640 So what was it like before?

00:51:02.660 Was there a golden age?

00:51:05.580 Well, these are all ideas, aren't they?

00:51:07.580 Yeah.

00:51:08.500 How can I verify them?

00:51:11.320 See, I'm only interested in what I can verify.

00:51:14.420 Now, if we want to have a beer together and have some good talk, we could talk about that.

00:51:19.140 But you wouldn't know any more than I would.

00:51:22.220 It'd just be what our predilection would be.

00:51:24.340 So it's about verifying what life is about as opposed to how you should live your life.

00:51:29.920 Right.

00:51:30.880 Okay.

00:51:31.100 How you should live your life is up to you, but it should come out of consciousness

00:51:36.360 and not some control mechanism of your parents or your society.

00:51:41.140 Same with morality.

00:51:42.240 All these thoughts are foisted upon us, right?

00:51:45.400 That's right.

00:51:45.900 Exactly.

00:51:46.440 Morality, rights.

00:51:48.620 That's right.

00:51:49.220 What's freedom?

00:51:50.480 Everyone's a little neurotic about sex, but as I say, we live in a sexual world.

00:51:55.060 We are sexual beings.

00:51:58.080 Yeah.

00:51:58.280 There's no surprise about that, and it's a wonderful experience, and it's going on all

00:52:02.700 the time, not only physically.

00:52:05.060 With people you know that you like very much, there's an exchange of substances.

00:52:08.700 Sure.

00:52:09.040 It's an energy exchange.

00:52:10.460 Well, I find it interesting that most religions condone sex. 0.99

00:52:14.880 Christianity is very strict about that.

00:52:16.420 All of the Islam, Judaism, somewhere along the line, that was altered. 0.70

00:52:22.400 That's right.

00:52:23.300 That's right.

00:52:23.820 And it's made people more weird, a little crazy, you know?

00:52:28.440 That's right.

00:52:29.380 And I think to a great degree, it was that we really hadn't, as a society, very few societies

00:52:35.260 worked out their relationship of man to woman.

00:52:39.280 So, you see, in the Middle East, women were burkus. 0.68

00:52:44.080 Here in the West, they were, you know, bikinis and less, right? 1.00

00:52:48.440 Yeah.

00:52:48.980 These are two extremes, right?

00:52:50.860 And we try to relate in that way, but we can't.

00:52:55.280 We have to relate consciously and see what that is, because every man is a woman, and

00:53:02.440 every woman is a man. 1.00

00:53:03.540 And what is that when you come together and you're conscious, right?

00:53:07.460 Mm-hmm.

00:53:08.040 Yeah, right now, it seems like there's a great imbalance of what's going on between men and

00:53:15.020 women. 0.81

00:53:15.340 It's all very jaded right now.

00:53:17.220 If you watch any TV or read these feminists, or we've been covering a lot of the subject 1.00

00:53:22.920 lately, it seems to be kind of a war on men going on as well.

00:53:27.560 Exactly.

00:53:28.040 Obviously, and that's tragic, because I don't believe, well, I'm not talking from what I

00:53:42.380 can verify, but I'm a heterosexual, and that's really all I know about.

00:53:49.640 That's a good thing.

00:53:50.440 We need those around to stay around.

00:53:53.820 So, as we begin to wrap up, what are some other important things that you want us to know

00:53:57.340 about Gertriff?

00:54:00.020 Well, you've been asking some very good questions.

00:54:02.900 What haven't I answered that you'd like to know about?

00:54:06.180 Maybe you could give us a couple tips on his methods to minimize some absent-mindedness.

00:54:13.460 Well, one of the things that he worked with was adulation.

00:54:18.120 You know, he was a man of great being and great knowledge, and so students would very

00:54:22.980 often fall into idolizing him.

00:54:26.100 And when they did, he would act otherwise, because what they were doing was they were

00:54:31.540 passing off their responsibility onto him for waking up.

00:54:35.780 You should idolize yourself, right, in a real way and not other people.

00:54:41.020 The teacher takes the role of the teacher.

00:54:45.620 He's not really the teacher.

00:54:47.080 If he takes himself as a teacher, then he's identified with the teacher, and he's wrong.

00:54:52.240 Gertriff never identified himself with the teacher, other than to say he was a teacher

00:54:56.480 of dancing, meaning that he worked with the law of three, the law of seven, the holy sun

00:55:03.600 absolute, and so forth and so on.

00:55:05.400 So dancing in the world and the energies, are we doing so consciously, and can we be there

00:55:13.240 for when things happen that are not to our liking?

00:55:19.160 Can I still demand of myself, I'm going to be present, I'm going to keep my eyes open,

00:55:24.360 right?

00:55:24.540 And I'm going to work with this as consciously as I can, and to see, perhaps, that I can't,

00:55:31.840 and not beat myself over the head about it, but then to recognize, what is it about what

00:55:36.640 happened that I couldn't really assimilate?

00:55:40.860 In this way, I begin to grow.

00:55:43.700 So does that mean we should just go with the flow of life, whatever happens, even if it's

00:55:48.420 bad events or bad things that happen to us?

00:55:50.320 Well, no, of course not.

00:55:53.980 We should become involved in creating a soul, and then everything takes care of itself.

00:56:01.760 Then you need a practice, then you need a teaching, and this is the teaching for our time.

00:56:07.620 I believe that sincerely.

00:56:08.820 I've practiced it now for over 40 years.

00:56:12.520 And it's interesting to me to see some of my friends who have been interested in one thing

00:56:19.800 or another and given their life to it.

00:56:23.040 And now when they're retired, what they have done has changed or diminished or been surpassed,

00:56:30.720 and they don't know where they are.

00:56:32.940 They don't know what their identity is anymore.

00:56:35.400 In a way, their life has no meaning.

00:56:38.060 My life takes on greater and greater meaning because I'm exploring myself in a genuine way,

00:56:44.880 not an egotistical way.

00:56:46.760 Yeah.

00:56:47.140 So you keep alive, and every time you practice the teaching, you arrest aging.

00:56:57.500 Every time.

00:56:59.240 Now, you may have genetic functioning or organic problems, what have you.

00:57:04.660 That's not going to cure that.

00:57:05.880 But every time you come to yourself and observe yourself, conscious labor and intentional suffering,

00:57:12.400 you step into physical reality, into a new time, right?

00:57:18.500 The time we're living in is a psychological time.

00:57:21.140 It's not real time at all.

00:57:22.860 So you arrest aging.

00:57:24.880 Want to grow younger, honey?

00:57:26.400 Yeah, of course.

00:57:27.180 I'd like to stay 34 for a while.

00:57:29.020 I'm liking it.

00:57:29.580 Well, we have a Gurdjieff Studies program.

00:57:34.320 One last question for you before we get into your websites and everything.

00:57:38.720 So how do you view this world that we currently live in?

00:57:41.400 It's pretty toxic.

00:57:42.380 The planet's being poisoned.

00:57:43.740 Our government's becoming very fascist.

00:57:46.240 How do you personally relate to that using these teachings?

00:57:49.860 Well, sometimes I do get upset.

00:57:52.560 My wife reminds me of that.

00:57:55.360 But I recognize that it's all historical.

00:57:58.300 It can't be otherwise because of the choices we have made and not made down through time

00:58:05.240 that largely have been unconscious.

00:58:09.540 So however those unconscious forces, actions play out is on a historical level.

00:58:17.520 To a great degree, it has nothing to do with me.

00:58:20.980 I know what foods to eat, where to live, how to breathe, and so forth and so on.

00:58:26.120 But, of course, I'm in that matrix.

00:58:30.420 And so you are affected to one degree or another, but you work with that.

00:58:36.740 I'm not looking to be living in paradise.

00:58:40.840 Some people are.

00:58:42.260 It's amazing.

00:58:43.700 But why?

00:58:44.520 Yeah.

00:58:45.120 They want to avoid confrontation.

00:58:47.260 They want to avoid dealing with themselves.

00:58:49.120 They want to stay the slave, I guess.

00:58:50.920 That's all I can think of.

00:58:51.920 And, well, then the world of technology is just right for them because it's going to take everything away.

00:58:58.340 Everything.

00:58:59.380 It's amazing.

00:59:00.760 And then it always goes bad.

00:59:02.020 Even the sci-fi movies show that.

00:59:03.400 If you're having soulless people programming technology, it's going to go bad.

00:59:07.580 Of course.

00:59:09.060 It has to.

00:59:09.520 The great egotism that comes with having a fine mind without really being embodied and coming to conscience,

00:59:19.580 particular to Mr. Gurdjieff's way is conscience, coming to conscience.

00:59:26.480 He says the ways of faith, love, et cetera, have been polluted,

00:59:31.100 that only conscience exists as a way forward.

00:59:36.560 And consciousness, conscience is in the subconscious.

00:59:40.460 And we reach that by becoming conscious.

00:59:44.120 That's good advice.

00:59:45.600 So when we come to conscience, you can't hurt another person without hurting yourself.

00:59:52.460 You'll feel it.

00:59:55.240 Because you are one.

00:59:56.560 Because the people who said that at the beginning of the program, they're right.

01:00:01.360 But they haven't experienced it yet.

01:00:03.200 They haven't worked for it.

01:00:05.540 Yeah.

01:00:05.820 Well, because quite honestly, to be one with some of these soulless people right now would be hell.

01:00:11.620 You know, I don't want to exchange energy with that.

01:00:16.340 Well, then you're putting yourself on a platform, aren't you?

01:00:24.740 Maybe you're soulless.

01:00:25.780 My husband doesn't feel that way.

01:00:31.460 Of course he wouldn't.

01:00:33.720 He's completely snowed by you.

01:00:37.760 Okay, William, how about you give us your websites and let us know about any seminars or events you have going on?

01:00:43.940 Okay.

01:00:45.040 It's gurdjifflegacy.org.

01:00:50.140 gurdjifflegacy.org.

01:00:51.380 And there you'll find information about the teaching, about books and other products we carry, information about me, and information about coming events.

01:01:04.580 I'm giving a seminar in Casa de Maria in Santa Barbara at a retreat center.

01:01:10.080 And the first weekend in December.

01:01:13.760 And the theme of the seminar, you'll like this, conscious relationship.

01:01:22.520 Oh, great.

01:01:23.860 Well, thank you, William, so much for your time today.

01:01:25.580 I really appreciate it.

01:01:26.960 Okay.

01:01:27.420 Thank you.

01:01:27.820 It's been funny and good.

01:01:29.680 There you have it, ladies and gentlemen.

01:01:31.480 So what eye is speaking to you and what one of your eyes is listening?

01:01:35.820 Do you have a soul?

01:01:37.080 Are you really awake?

01:01:38.740 Eyes?

01:01:39.120 Suppose we continue our conscious efforts and labor until we become present of all our eyes.

01:01:43.960 Then hopefully we'll fully integrate.

01:01:45.920 We'll leave you with the music of G.I.

01:01:47.340 Gurchiff and Thomas Hartman.

01:01:49.040 Take care.

01:01:49.420 Take care.

01:01:51.420 Take care.

01:02:21.420 Take care.

01:02:51.420 Take care.

01:03:21.420 Take care.

01:03:22.420 Take care.

01:03:23.420 Take care.

01:03:27.420 Take care.

01:03:31.420 You

Radio 3Fourteen - September 18, 2013

G.I. Gurdjieff_ The Fourth Way

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