Radio 3Fourteen - Red Ice 101

00:00:00.000 We'll be right back.

00:00:30.000 This is Radio 314 on the Red Ice Radio Network.

00:01:00.000 A true Renaissance man. Hello, Henrik.

00:01:03.440 Hi, Lana. It's great to be on your fine program today. Thank you so much for inviting me. I'm really looking forward to this.

00:01:09.360 I think it's a good time for you to share the philosophy of Red Ice and your approach to the website. Perhaps we can begin with how you go about choosing guests.

00:01:18.380 Okay. Yeah, we try to be diverse as possible. I guess the main selection is up to me on some level. I guess I'm the main man when it comes to selecting guests.

00:01:31.400 But we take suggestions and everyone who's involved in Red Ice has input in this, obviously.

00:01:37.780 And the selection process is basically one that we try to get a very broad perspective in here.

00:01:47.100 And for someone who's new to it or might not really maybe understand our philosophy, if I can put it that way, might seem or have the perception that we bring on guests that are contradictory.

00:02:00.240 And that is absolutely correct. It is contradictory. And that's the point of it. It should be contradictory for very obvious reasons.

00:02:08.720 And those are you have to learn about many different sides of the same story.

00:02:14.420 You have to learn about the fact that there's different arguments, different perspectives.

00:02:18.920 And so I think it's our task to bring on and give our listeners a chance to come to a conclusion based on so many different perspectives as possible about one given subject.

00:02:33.840 Obviously, we're going to have one level of censorship, more or less, because we are restricted.

00:02:40.140 Not restricted, but we are interested in certain topics. And I am personally as well.

00:02:44.360 So maybe we wouldn't do a program about fine English gardens or, you know, the latest Premier League scores or American Idol or some bullshit like that.

00:02:53.780 We are restricted in that sense. But even what that is might vary a little bit.

00:02:59.140 We might be interested in more spiritual topics for a while into that.

00:03:04.280 And then we go over to a little bit more on conspiracy and then over to ufology and, you know, back and forth.

00:03:09.720 We try to cover as much as possible and nothing is really off limits.

00:03:14.740 And so hence, this might seem contradictory to people.

00:03:18.300 It might seem, you know, where do you stand in all this or, you know, what's your agenda here or something like that.

00:03:25.800 But that's really not the point here.

00:03:28.240 The point is to try to, again, offer a service of sorts.

00:03:33.000 We're doing this as kind of an open source thing because I consider myself to be a researcher, if you will, or I'm investigating these topics and the claims they're in and these researchers also.

00:03:44.680 So we keep an eye on this alternative movement, the conspiracy field, the spiritual field, ufology, and so many more topics, history, religion, mythology.

00:03:56.760 And the point isn't to agree with your guests 100% of the time.

00:03:59.740 No, absolutely not.

00:04:01.260 And we, see, I try to make it my, make it a thing out of actually bringing on people that I personally don't agree with as well.

00:04:10.820 Because I think it's healthy for myself to hear their perspective.

00:04:15.500 And I think it's going to be healthy for our listeners to hear their perspective, whether they agree or not.

00:04:19.700 But at the end of the day, there might be something in these interviews that we do that really unlocks it for certain people, that really gets their headspace into a completely new area.

00:04:31.700 And they have a, so to speak, their mind is blown, as they say.

00:04:36.800 And what that is, I mean, I can't determine that.

00:04:39.220 It's going to be different for me than for you.

00:04:41.740 And different things make different people click or get it.

00:04:45.240 And this could be everything from speculation to facts to just talking about life in general or spirituality, what have you.

00:04:54.160 So it's very important to offer this broad perspective, be open-minded, and then not try to just shoot anybody down right away just because we don't happen to agree with them or something like that.

00:05:06.060 I mean, I've done many programs with guests that I, first of all, when bringing them on, that I'm not agreeing with.

00:05:14.040 I can take a few examples here.

00:05:16.920 The Venus Project is a classic one for me.

00:05:19.840 Jack Fresco and Roxanne Meadows, I consider personally that their ideas are, they might come from a good, you know, an honest place.

00:05:27.260 And I think they do.

00:05:28.600 I think they mean well.

00:05:29.840 But I definitely can see how their ideas could be, they're very dangerous, actually.

00:05:34.820 That's what I think, personally, because of the fact that what they advocate is a very difficult thing to implement.

00:05:42.420 And an elite faction could definitely take advantage of that.

00:05:46.260 And I can't help to compare it to when communism came into Soviet Russia, because the resource-based economy that Jack has talked many times about actually is a concept where you would have to take all the resources that are available on the planet.

00:06:04.820 To give it to this, I don't know, a group or a committee.

00:06:10.560 I mean, he talks about doing surveys and stuff like that.

00:06:12.780 And there would be, I don't know if it's engineers that would oversee this or whatever.

00:06:17.560 But you could argue that this would be some kind of council of wise elders that obviously have a much better perception than you do, and they're educated, and therefore they're simply better than you.

00:06:28.880 And then you should, you know, take that for the fact that they know better than you, and therefore they're going to make the decision for you.

00:06:36.200 And I'm definitely opposed to that.

00:06:38.100 It's just another centralized system.

00:06:39.880 Yep, exactly.

00:06:40.500 And Jacques Fresco is not a spiritual man.

00:06:44.200 So I've heard, and we kind of realized that when we did the program with him as well.

00:06:48.900 And again, that's fine.

00:06:49.940 I mean, some of his ideas might be great, might be superb.

00:06:55.880 And I'm not saying that.

00:06:57.120 I'm just saying, overall, the overarching themes that he presents could be used for something really, really nefarious.

00:07:04.300 And even though his intentions might not lie there, this could still be used that way.

00:07:10.200 And I think people who are limited, if you will, in their research, that tend to miss out on certain things.

00:07:16.460 I think you have to be holistic and have a broad perspective.

00:07:19.480 Again, something we try to offer our listeners to be able to determine if some of these ideas and propositions that come along are viable.

00:07:27.160 If you want to bet on this horse, so to speak, you have to know all its traits and its flaws and what it's good at doing.

00:07:37.160 So, yeah, so in this case, there's no way around it.

00:07:40.060 You would have to take all the resources from all the people on the earth to bring in a resource-based economy that's worldwide spreading.

00:07:47.780 And that's exactly what happened in Soviet Russia.

00:07:50.020 You come in and the government says, we now own this because for the benefit of all, we're going to give it to the people.

00:07:55.440 And you're not allowed to have private property anymore.

00:07:57.960 So there's no way around that.

00:07:59.700 So we did that program to – so some people might say then, oh, well, then you – because you had them on, you're advocating these ideas.

00:08:06.400 Now you're promoting their message.

00:08:08.920 And I don't consider that.

00:08:10.240 I don't think that at all.

00:08:11.340 I think this is – for me, this was even more about trying to realize what perspective that came from.

00:08:17.040 I mean, that's why I spent so much time on talking with them about how would you implement your ideas.

00:08:22.640 Because I saw that as a very delicate process, a very, very sensitive area in their propositions.

00:08:30.780 So it's not promotion.

00:08:33.760 Definitely not.

00:08:34.560 This is – look at it as an investigation.

00:08:36.840 And hopefully along the line as we talk about their work, we ask them questions about themselves and their take on certain things,

00:08:45.000 you, on some level, might be able to understand them better.

00:08:48.820 And that's what it really is about.

00:08:50.380 You know, try to understand a researcher, what perspective do they come from, what do they view about this, that, certain things.

00:08:57.940 And so we're testing the waters a little bit.

00:09:01.040 And there's a couple of other examples of people that we don't agree with but still find very interesting to have on.

00:09:10.240 And one of these shows was with the Satanist we had on, Winter Lake.

00:09:15.920 And I was, I guess, a little surprised about how many people were so incredibly upset about the fact that we had a Satanist on.

00:09:24.220 Oh, my God, what are you doing, Henrik?

00:09:26.060 You know, how can you have a Satanist on the program?

00:09:28.220 Yeah. And, I mean, just, first of all, I think the guy was very mellow.

00:09:32.220 He was just laid back.

00:09:34.720 His ideas were quite altruistic when we got to the core of things.

00:09:39.260 And, yeah, we had a two-hour discussion.

00:09:41.980 And I heard from people who were so upset that they turned off after five minutes or 15 minutes without even hearing the guy out.

00:09:48.140 And so how can you –

00:09:48.480 This is what happens.

00:09:49.380 People don't actually hear the other person all the way through.

00:09:52.720 That's right.

00:09:53.160 Yet they make a judgment right away.

00:09:54.740 Yeah, exactly.

00:09:55.360 So their mind is already made up.

00:09:57.460 Don't bother me with the facts.

00:09:59.760 You know, I'm already decided. 1.00

00:10:02.040 So on one level, okay, you think Satanism is all bullshit. 0.99

00:10:05.720 And I can understand that point of view. 0.99

00:10:07.560 So they might have an opinion that I don't need to learn more about this.

00:10:11.500 I don't need to study it more. 0.99

00:10:12.680 I know it's garbage. 0.96

00:10:14.300 But – and I'm not saying that Winter Lake, in any regard, represents Satanism 100% that he's the pinnacle point of the man that is Satanism embodied. 0.97

00:10:25.780 Actually, I think a lot of his ideas were quite altruistic and were kind of diametrically opposed to what I thought, what I've read about Satanism, that it's based on the self or the self-interest.

00:10:37.240 You put that first.

00:10:38.120 And when we kind of came down to some of these issues, it was – I mean, he had a very altruistic approach to all of this.

00:10:44.700 So for me personally, maybe that was a little bit of a contradiction maybe or – I mean, this was just his philosophy.

00:10:50.520 So people are missing out on the opportunity to learn about certain things and learn about certain philosophies.

00:10:59.120 And I try to make the point that, okay, well, if it's your task or if it's in your best interest to try to make sure that Satanism never, ever gets a stronger position in the world, then why wouldn't you want to learn and study about those aspects?

00:11:22.060 That's right, like a good game of chess.

00:11:23.700 You want to know your opponent.

00:11:24.820 Well, exactly.

00:11:25.400 There you go.

00:11:25.840 And so it's kind of a double standard there.

00:11:30.400 I mean, learn about it, study it, and question yourself, question your own belief, question why you disagree or why you agree.

00:11:39.680 Whatever it is, you know, it's about trying to analyze this.

00:11:42.260 And yes, I think people are missing out a little bit by turning off too quickly and not hearing the guy out.

00:11:48.100 I mean, and overall, I understand that people are busy, they have a lot of things to do.

00:11:52.100 And if there's something that simply doesn't interest them, that's fine, don't listen to it.

00:11:56.400 But I guess what I'm opposed to is when there's still going to be outspokenness about the subject matter.

00:12:00.660 There's still going to be a determination that you did wrong now for bringing on this guy or, you know, this guy is full of it, but I didn't listen to the show.

00:12:09.880 So, you know, well, don't speak out about it then, just avoid it altogether and move on and focus on the areas that you're interested in personally.

00:12:17.920 Just a few more examples.

00:12:20.400 I thought the show, some people laughed at this.

00:12:22.580 We did that show about the old Jewish lady who were behind the Barbie doll, the girl or the woman who wrote the biography on her.

00:12:31.780 I forget her name right now.

00:12:33.680 Well, M.G. Lorde was the guest, but the name of the lady who was behind the Barbie doll. 0.97

00:12:37.880 Anyway, and it was quite fascinating for me.

00:12:41.520 And some people were like, what the hell is this?

00:12:43.480 The kind of show is this.

00:12:45.140 Well, of course, because Barbie's been so controversial, you know, the ideal woman. 0.98

00:12:48.780 Well, exactly.

00:12:49.520 That's what I'm trying to get to.

00:12:51.020 Who set the standard for that, right?

00:12:52.480 Yeah, created so many issues with teenage girls and creating so much low self-esteem and everything from eating disorders and anorexia to, like, these, you know, weird, strange beauty ideals and everything else, you know.

00:13:04.060 So try to get to the core of this, like, was this lady, you know, in on it?

00:13:07.660 Did she know what she was doing?

00:13:08.880 What was up with that, you know?

00:13:10.520 So I just found that very interesting.

00:13:11.940 So therefore, again, something to learn from, something to try to add to your perspective.

00:13:17.440 And then there's been a couple other shows.

00:13:19.160 I mean, one reason one was with Daniel Pinchbeck, personally, very much not at all, agreed with what he talked about specifically during the second hour.

00:13:29.380 But again, that's fine.

00:13:31.160 That doesn't matter.

00:13:33.080 It doesn't matter if I disagree or not with that.

00:13:36.500 And sometimes you might make it a point to try to argue to a certain extent with them to try to coax out more of the discussion,

00:13:46.560 to try to make it both interesting and also create a little bit more dynamics there.

00:13:50.560 Usually if a person has a very good way or determiness in how they present their material, I try to step back as much as possible.

00:13:59.840 But if there's a kind of more difficult to get it going or whatever, I try to step in there more and try to ask certain things and maybe even provoke a little bit to get, you know, some debate going a little bit.

00:14:10.900 And so every interview is different.

00:14:13.580 Every aspect has something to add, I believe.

00:14:17.440 And I think it's a big mistake to throw all of this out.

00:14:20.560 But the bottom line I want to return to is this idea that it's not a promotion just because we have a guest on.

00:14:27.820 In many cases, I've come out the other end of doing a show being, how can I put it, being very much interested in some of the ideas that a guest presents.

00:14:38.840 But then I come out of the other end and like, whoa, this is not at all what I expected because it's a different feel when you actually talk to the person, you get a better sense of them.

00:14:49.460 It's very different doing an interview with somebody than listening to an interview with somebody so that you have that dynamics there too.

00:14:55.420 But at the same time, I think what we're doing here then is kind of a, I don't know if I can call it open source, but it's like the investigation is open and we're doing it right there on the spot.

00:15:09.260 It's like we're inviting the listener to have an opportunity and a chance to listen in as we're kind of inquiring with this researcher or the author or the guest and their ideas.

00:15:20.020 And so one example I just want to make about that as well is, think about it this way.

00:15:26.040 I think the relationship sometimes to the information has to be changed a little bit.

00:15:32.700 The perception that we, as I say, might have or our listeners might have out there of why we highlight certain things.

00:15:41.580 Think about it this way.

00:15:42.300 We publish an article on the website, a headline about surveillance technology in some country and new technology has been developed and this government is now snooping on their people.

00:15:53.860 And we publish that on the website.

00:15:57.120 That would be equally a saying then that, oh, okay, you published a website because you agree with what the government says, which is not the case at all.

00:16:06.340 It's a matter of fact that we're reporting on the issue.

00:16:10.480 We're trying to get people to realize what's going on.

00:16:13.240 And just because we don't add a comment to this article telling people what to think about this, we hope, obviously, that people can connect the dots in their own heads in that exercise and try to see the absurdities, see the inconsistencies in this.

00:16:30.020 And that's why we combine the news headlines maybe with the radio show so that all of this together as a whole will add something to our listeners' perspective so they can realize how absurd some of these things are that we publish in the news section.

00:16:48.040 And just because we don't write under every article how absurd this is, that doesn't mean that we agree with what's stated in the article.

00:16:54.760 Absolutely not.

00:16:55.420 So just a little change of perception sometimes I think is necessary.

00:16:59.980 Take everything with a grain of salt, basically.

00:17:02.800 Yeah, and the screening process is going to be different for everyone.

00:17:05.360 You can't screen everything that's going to work for everybody all the time, too.

00:17:08.740 Of course not.

00:17:09.280 So it's an individual process.

00:17:10.620 What would you say to people that say, but Henrik, you have a moral obligation to screen your guests better.

00:17:16.160 How could you let this person on?

00:17:17.900 No, I don't think so.

00:17:19.160 I think the obligation lies at the end of the day at the listener's end, at the receiver, for the simple fact that I'm one who personally have a philosophy where I think everything should be free and open, if you will.

00:17:33.600 I think everybody should be allowed to think what they want to think, say what they want to say, and have the belief system that they want to have.

00:17:41.920 I don't think that there should be a governing body telling everybody else.

00:17:46.040 I mean, we could view that from the point of view of producing goods or something like that.

00:17:52.340 Everyone is free to buy what they want, I think.

00:17:55.900 And I think everyone should be free to produce what they want.

00:17:58.380 There shouldn't be someone in there and telling them beforehand, nope, you can't sell this, and you can't buy this.

00:18:04.000 Let it just be open there, and then it's on the responsibility of the consumer to make that choice.

00:18:11.520 And that's why the world—and again, I'm not saying that there's not conspiracy here, because of course there is.

00:18:16.800 But to a large extent, the world, I believe, looks the way it looks because of the fact that on some level people are supporting it.

00:18:25.160 And the world is shaped accordingly.

00:18:29.240 Where there is a demand for something, someone is going to be there and supply that.

00:18:33.700 So I think that we do the best we can to investigate—well, not investigate.

00:18:41.900 We do the best we can to bring on interesting people.

00:18:45.440 And again, just to go back to that idea that sometimes we bring on somebody who we absolutely disagree with,

00:18:51.960 to come closer to a realization if we agree with them or not, you know,

00:18:56.240 and to give them an opportunity and a time to speak out,

00:18:59.680 because we don't take it—we don't assume, rather, that our listeners have heard this guest elsewhere,

00:19:07.820 although they could have done that,

00:19:09.440 or that they've already personally themselves researched this guest

00:19:12.360 and come to a conclusion that they don't agree and this is all bunk, you know.

00:19:15.720 So I don't see the reason or the point in handing that over to us now

00:19:20.420 and saying that you should have realized what I realized just because you've looked into that.

00:19:24.460 It doesn't work like that.

00:19:26.280 This is a process of discovering this for yourself, coming to your own conclusions.

00:19:32.400 And I'm just puzzled by this concept of trying to control everybody else all the time.

00:19:37.760 Try to—

00:19:39.360 Micromanage.

00:19:41.220 Yeah, exactly.

00:19:42.300 Try to get everybody else to believe something or—I mean, think about it.

00:19:45.660 If we zoom out, I mean, look at the world the state things are in now.

00:19:52.960 And look at what the governments are doing, what the corporations are doing,

00:19:58.140 the military are doing, what the psychopaths out there are doing.

00:20:01.160 They are trying to control everybody else all the time.

00:20:04.180 What they should do, what they should think, how they should act, blah, blah, blah.

00:20:08.500 And the world is in a mess.

00:20:09.580 We have all these monkeys running around trying to control everybody else all the time.

00:20:13.360 And I think the only way out of that is to go—is to let that thing go, you know,

00:20:19.100 and not be like that because otherwise we're no different at all.

00:20:23.380 And we become equally fascist, actually, in our own approach because now we know the truth

00:20:29.820 and we know what's right.

00:20:30.920 And this incredible 100% determination is almost like a religious belief.

00:20:36.300 You know, it's like as absurd—

00:20:37.800 So much so, it's a new religion. 0.64

00:20:39.440 Exactly.

00:20:40.000 And what is truth, people?

00:20:42.220 Well, I wanted to get into that a little bit later, too,

00:20:44.640 because it's a good philosophical argument.

00:20:46.980 And I think people don't have the—they might jump to conclusions a little bit.

00:20:51.780 I mean, truth is a concept that philosophers have discussed for hundreds of years.

00:20:56.200 This is not something that we're going to realize just because we have access to the Internet

00:20:59.740 and studied it for a few years, if even that, you know.

00:21:03.500 But anyway, the basic idea here is that I think we should allow people to come to the conclusions for themselves

00:21:13.620 and investigate.

00:21:14.520 I think there is a kind of a stagnation that happens if we begin to shoot people down

00:21:19.200 just because we consider them to be on the wrong trail.

00:21:21.700 Oh my God, do you dare to look into UFOs? 1.00

00:21:23.680 You're obviously, you know, a moron and an idiot, you know, whatever. 1.00

00:21:27.800 Because this is now off limits. 1.00

00:21:29.340 That's not about truth or whatever.

00:21:31.540 Well, so what?

00:21:32.240 Let people do that.

00:21:33.260 I mean, that's fine.

00:21:35.880 What does that matter?

00:21:36.920 Who is to tell what is the truth and what isn't?

00:21:40.560 This is so much about perception.

00:21:42.300 I think from a philosophical point of view, once you get into the idea of what truth is,

00:21:47.280 the concept of it begins to crumble apart a little bit

00:21:52.620 because there are so many different schools out there of what they consider truth to be.

00:21:58.040 Some people claim, philosophers claim and certain groups claim that just because the majority have agreed upon something,

00:22:06.780 then that becomes the truth.

00:22:08.460 And that to me is like a, that's a really scary argument because think about propaganda and everything that's out there. 1.00

00:22:13.660 Think about how many idiots are out there. 1.00

00:22:15.100 Yeah, exactly. 1.00

00:22:15.960 So just because the majority think something, that's now the truth.

00:22:18.720 I mean, and then you have so many different things here.

00:22:22.220 But basically, if you come from the older school of correspondence theory, I think it's called,

00:22:28.240 there's something that states that it should be verified in external reality.

00:22:32.560 But after all, we do have, the instrument that we have for measurement is our senses.

00:22:40.060 And we have to question if we can trust our senses.

00:22:45.960 And I don't think we can.

00:22:47.500 I've seen, just a brief example, I've seen people watch a movie, for instance,

00:22:53.740 and they've, well, again then, from my perspective, completely missed the point in certain things

00:23:00.860 that are being conveyed in the message of the movie.

00:23:03.180 And I'm not saying I'm 100% right, but I think I, for reasons that could be debated with the people

00:23:09.780 I've watched the movie with, could argue that I think I have a better perception of what was said during the outcome.

00:23:17.680 I've seen that they might have discussed or talked amongst themselves while something was unfolding in the movie,

00:23:24.820 so they missed one point.

00:23:26.020 And it's like, all I'm getting at is that the perception level is very, very different.

00:23:30.760 I mean, they've done these experiments of someone walking into a classroom or whatever,

00:23:35.080 and then the person walks out again, and then they ask the classroom,

00:23:37.500 the students in the classroom to describe the person that walked in.

00:23:40.520 And they can get the most absurd, you know, questions back.

00:23:44.180 The other person had a red jacket on, but the fact that they had a black jacket.

00:23:48.200 It's like a bad game of telephone.

00:23:49.660 Yeah, telephone, that's a classic, of course, yeah.

00:23:51.820 So the question is, can we trust our senses?

00:23:56.040 And sure, there are methodologies to get closer to it, but there's so many layers to this.

00:24:00.660 Just because something is documented doesn't mean it's the truth, you know.

00:24:04.240 Documents can be forged, and it's not the only version of the truth either.

00:24:08.580 There are so many dynamics at play, so it's easy to accuse people of being guilty for something

00:24:15.240 just because they had an association and everything, you know.

00:24:17.580 So it's more delicate than that.

00:24:20.980 It's more difficult from my point of view.

00:24:22.600 It's something that I think truth is a process that we need to come to.

00:24:30.460 We might get closer to the truth.

00:24:32.440 It's like a sliding scale, you know, a gray scale or whatever.

00:24:34.960 It's like, I think it's, think about it from this point of view.

00:24:39.900 If we travel back a thousand years, then certain things we didn't know then,

00:24:44.880 but we still consider it to be the truth, or the people who lived at that time.

00:24:49.140 They might have said something about the sun or whatever, and yeah, we know what it is,

00:24:53.980 and it's a disc in the sky, and that's the truth.

00:24:58.060 And then we go forward, and now we know more.

00:25:00.440 I mean, on certain things, and if we look back in history, we've probably fallen backwards.

00:25:05.440 We've been subjected to propaganda, and now we're further away from the truth on certain points.

00:25:10.200 Might have been closer to it a long time ago.

00:25:12.840 But so, for me personally, I think it's important to have that position

00:25:19.720 when being able to just hear many different perspectives,

00:25:23.580 to not be so set in stone and so determined.

00:25:27.440 There are things that could come along tomorrow that completely would change

00:25:31.460 our perception of things or what we thought we knew about something.

00:25:35.000 And so just keep that in mind in every single situation,

00:25:37.020 that there might be something there that just you didn't know about

00:25:39.780 or that we collectively even didn't know about that might come along to change things.

00:25:43.440 That kind of makes me think of our symbolism TV show

00:25:46.500 when you made a quote by Henry Wallace saying,

00:25:48.980 Roosevelt, like myself, was a 32nd degree Mason.

00:25:51.980 And people actually thought that you, Henrik Pongren,

00:25:55.280 was admitting that you were a Mason.

00:25:56.960 Yeah, it's amazing, isn't it?

00:25:59.000 Yeah, exactly.

00:25:59.720 See, that's a perfect example of that.

00:26:02.460 And you can correct that person, write them back,

00:26:05.080 and then they still want to fight you on it.

00:26:07.360 Oh, they know.

00:26:07.860 They're 100% convinced that they've heard me, that I'm a Mason.

00:26:10.680 Then I'm telling them down to the minute in what TV episode this is,

00:26:15.140 in episode three, about nine minutes, I'm reading this quote by this guy.

00:26:18.940 That's what you've heard.

00:26:20.240 And no, no, no, no, no.

00:26:21.380 I have it somewhere else and I ask, well, can you send it to me then?

00:26:24.200 Please send me this material, detail this reference for me.

00:26:26.860 They never do.

00:26:27.360 Send it to it.

00:26:27.880 And they can't because it doesn't exist.

00:26:30.160 So taking things out of context, another thing, you know,

00:26:33.600 they're not interested in what happened one second earlier or one second after that quote.

00:26:37.880 They're now determined that just because I read that this quote, you know, from somebody,

00:26:43.380 and I wasn't so specific that it was like over the top, that I'm now reading a letter,

00:26:49.780 begin quote, and then 32nd degree Mason.

00:26:52.440 And then there's so many layers on top of that.

00:26:54.440 Never mind that there is not even a Scottish Rite system within Sweden where I'm at.

00:26:58.640 There's no up to the 32nd degree here even.

00:27:02.080 What I've read about it, there's a completely different system.

00:27:05.360 And so, I mean, what does that mean?

00:27:07.820 Oh, yeah, I traveled over to America then, I guess, and joined up there. 0.92

00:27:12.240 I mean, it's just ridiculous. 0.50

00:27:13.140 And then consider all the programs we've done about this and how over and over again

00:27:18.300 I've said that I'm against joining these kinds of groups and everything.

00:27:21.700 So, anyway, this is a petty detail.

00:27:23.680 But it's a good example of how uninterested people really are

00:27:27.560 in remotely beginning to approach something that begins to look like the truth.

00:27:31.420 Why is it that when we do programs or have articles on the occult aspects of Hollywood,

00:27:39.340 they're always the most popular?

00:27:41.860 Yeah, that's a good question.

00:27:44.800 I think it's because it's still within the realm of celebrity, unfortunately.

00:27:50.580 I think there are a few different reasons for it, but it's a new dynamic, a new facet

00:27:57.880 to an old fascination of stars and celebrity and everything else.

00:28:04.140 But I also think that it's a very easy induction into the world of conspiracy

00:28:11.780 and a greater reality, I guess, of your world.

00:28:15.140 Something you can point out.

00:28:16.140 It's that symbol right there.

00:28:17.480 Yeah, and they're involved and people are still kind of obsessed a little bit

00:28:21.880 with celebrities and everything.

00:28:25.120 So, anyway, I guess it's good that it's there and it's good that people are looking and paying attention.

00:28:32.040 And it's a really good place to begin.

00:28:35.080 But there's definitely more beyond it than that, though.

00:28:38.560 Anything can become an obsession, if you know what I mean.

00:28:42.820 And anything can become like, you want to try to sort every little aspect out about one little item.

00:28:52.620 And in certain cases, that's good.

00:28:53.780 That's what you need to do.

00:28:54.940 I guess that's the beginning of how certain researchers are.

00:28:57.880 They begin to investigate this very small area and begin to become very specialized,

00:29:04.180 which is excellent because they add on to something greater,

00:29:09.700 which is those who have a holistic approach or are trying to look more across the board

00:29:14.760 can, of course, look at somebody's material for someone who's studied it for 10, 15 years

00:29:19.620 and gain a lot of insight into one particular subject.

00:29:23.820 I think what happens sometimes, though, is that people who become specialized

00:29:29.020 think that they can explain the whole world from their own little perspective,

00:29:32.940 which I guess is a level of critique I would have.

00:29:37.120 It becomes difficult when you try to explain reality or the world based on a model or a concept.

00:29:47.280 And I know personally that I can be maybe vague sometimes or reach for words or try to walk

00:29:56.780 around the subject and maybe not try to hit it straight on.

00:29:59.580 But the fact is, I'm just the kind of person that I don't want to generalize too much.

00:30:04.380 I don't want to simplify.

00:30:06.140 And the fact is, the world is a pretty complex place.

00:30:10.120 And people like when it's simplified to them.

00:30:13.020 And I understand that point of view.

00:30:14.240 I mean, your study of something might be very complex, but your conveying of the message

00:30:18.880 of what you've learned might have to be simplified sometimes so that you can convey it or be able

00:30:23.740 to explain it.

00:30:26.000 But sometimes, and that's why stories are really good or analogies or even symbolism overall,

00:30:33.080 because with very simple and easy terms, you can explain something larger.

00:30:39.420 And it's like a template that you can add on to many different situations later on.

00:30:43.220 So it's not about detailing every little aspect.

00:30:47.200 World history is a pretty big subject and accuracy and facts within world history.

00:30:52.080 It's like, oh God, are we ever going to sort it out?

00:30:54.680 And the further, the more we go in history as well, the more and more data there is,

00:30:58.720 the more and more books are written, the more and more reference points there is.

00:31:02.660 I mean, you couldn't spend your whole lifetime to even learn about 5% of all the stuff that's available out there.

00:31:10.320 There's just, there's so much material written about everything.

00:31:14.620 And there's just no, there's not time to read and learn about every single thing into the minus detail.

00:31:21.140 I mean, it's impossible.

00:31:22.000 So therefore, we have to have a different approach to it.

00:31:26.380 And I think, personally, I believe that the example approach or the symbol approach or the analogy approach works pretty good.

00:31:37.940 You have a general idea of how things are maybe run in the world, and then you can apply that to certain scenarios.

00:31:44.400 But never mistake yourself.

00:31:46.560 You could, you might always be wrong.

00:31:49.260 It might not be the truth.

00:31:51.020 And there's always a chance.

00:31:53.040 So why do you think occult symbols are showing up so much in pop culture now?

00:31:57.800 Well, I think at this stage, they know it.

00:32:00.520 They know that it works.

00:32:01.740 They know that it helps to spread the message.

00:32:03.680 They know that it helps to get it out there viral.

00:32:07.120 And at the same time, what they're involved in, what they're doing,

00:32:11.380 if it wasn't their intention to begin with, of actually using these dark occult symbols,

00:32:18.800 at least their intention into them now, the energy and the intention that they put into these talismans

00:32:24.600 are charging them up into something really dark.

00:32:28.240 And so all the people out there that are looking into it and observing it and reacting in a certain way

00:32:34.600 when they see these symbols are maybe kind of feeding into it a little bit as well.

00:32:38.860 They're charging in energy into them more than maybe would be necessary.

00:32:44.740 I'm a person of a belief that I don't think that a symbol inherently in itself contains any wickedness or evil.

00:32:52.020 I think everything can be interpreted in different ways.

00:32:56.320 So therefore, it's the intention of the person who created it and for what reason.

00:33:02.880 And I think, not always, but I think in some cases, these symbols are put in there

00:33:07.580 because they know that one bunch of the people out there are going to react in a very, I don't know,

00:33:15.680 angry or charged up kind of way.

00:33:18.780 So it helps to charge up the music video or the album or the artist even further,

00:33:24.880 while the other group might be not savvy to the symbolism.

00:33:28.080 But it actually works on them on a subconscious level.

00:33:31.160 And they're drawn to it for some reason and they might not understand why.

00:33:34.900 So there are a lot of dynamics to this.

00:33:38.180 Well, in light of my last interview, I was very disappointed to hear how people dealt with an opposing viewpoint.

00:33:43.740 It got really ugly and turned into war between people basically who believe in conspiracy

00:33:47.980 or look into conspiracy research and those who don't. 0.99

00:33:51.680 And those who don't say it's bullshit and use my least favorite word, you're fear-mongering. 0.94

00:33:59.740 So in your viewpoint, how do you approach conspiracy? 0.99

00:34:04.180 Yeah, I think with a grain of salt somewhere in the middle of the line,

00:34:07.700 I think it's a pretty good approach for me personally.

00:34:10.320 I think that we can lose ourselves a little bit in the polarization

00:34:17.160 and we decide to take the side here of one or the other issue

00:34:25.900 because, again, it confirms our worldview and it feeds into our own belief of a certain situation.

00:34:32.740 And, again, I'm trying to talk about this from above the fact that it might be the truth

00:34:38.920 or it might not be the truth.

00:34:41.580 I think at the end of the day, it's a personal experience

00:34:45.120 and it's what you come to as a realization individually.

00:34:49.460 But we're still back to the earlier point I raised of trying to control everybody else

00:34:55.020 and try to tell them what is or what isn't, how it should be or shouldn't be.

00:35:01.540 And I understand that to a certain extent.

00:35:03.580 And we want to be right.

00:35:09.340 We want to tell other people that we are right.

00:35:13.600 We are going to have a lady on red ice soon called Barbara Oakley 1.00

00:35:16.640 who talks about the fact that there's even pleasure centers in your brain

00:35:21.520 that basically lights up when we read things or hear things that supports our own worldview.

00:35:27.320 I mean, it's not necessarily a negative thing.

00:35:28.940 It might be that it's like a reward for the fact that you're continuing to learn something

00:35:33.400 or the fact that you're happy about that.

00:35:37.260 But it could be a little dangerous thing as well.

00:35:41.480 It can become an addiction of sorts.

00:35:44.560 And I think it's important to just have that balanced point of view

00:35:47.380 that we always have to realize that we might be wrong.

00:35:50.200 And to be so incredibly certain about something is kind of, it's a little scary to me.

00:35:59.820 And I understand there can be an incredible lot of supporting material out there for a certain worldview.

00:36:06.320 But I mean, again, it's like this is not something new.

00:36:08.640 People have been fighting about this for forever.

00:36:10.680 And I mean, there's certainly a context of conspiracy to world wars.

00:36:17.200 But the fact is that there's disagreements behind the reasons why these things begin and start.

00:36:23.260 And in wars and in battles, truth and honesty are some of the first victims to go.

00:36:28.720 And people lose their sensibility and rationality and they begin to fighting for the sake of fighting

00:36:33.180 and just protecting their own point of view and their side.

00:36:35.480 And so one part of me is questioning why are many people so afraid of not being right

00:36:48.740 or rather afraid of why the other side, we might consider them to be wrong.

00:36:54.860 And then we have to convince them otherwise.

00:36:56.800 There is this pull in humans that we want to have the numbers on our side or something like that.

00:37:03.900 There is a comfort zone in the fact that we have people on our side and we're in the right, you know.

00:37:10.960 And I understand that too, that that's a really, it is a driving force behind the reasons why we advocate a point.

00:37:18.880 I think that on one hand, there is an insecurity behind it.

00:37:25.320 I think that that's why people are afraid sometimes to listen to the other side of the argument

00:37:30.000 or to learn about it because they have a fear that what if I'm convinced, what if I'm realized that I'm wrong?

00:37:36.580 And it just feels good to be part of a team and being on, you know, team black or team white or team red or team blue.

00:37:44.340 And they want to have, because they identify with that and that's their whole life, that's their whole identity.

00:37:48.860 I mean, there's people who are out on the streets fighting with each other over freaking football teams. 0.99

00:37:54.900 Morons, you know, come on, wake up. 0.99

00:37:57.000 Yeah, they hate each other over it too. 1.00

00:37:58.560 They hate each other.

00:37:58.720 There's this lack of finding middle ground and having a true conversation with people.

00:38:03.960 Yeah, yeah, I agree.

00:38:05.760 And so that's a shame.

00:38:06.960 So, again, coming closer to the truth, I think that that process is one of the first things that is sacrificed in these kinds of battles, if you will.

00:38:17.260 And I think that the more we begin to throw stones at other people because we consider them to be in the wrong point of view,

00:38:25.680 I think, again, that will staunch the development and now people will take the opposing viewpoint just because of the fact that it is opposing to you or whatever and everything you represent.

00:38:36.320 And so it stagnates and we kind of stop there, you know.

00:38:40.420 But, again, this is nothing new.

00:38:42.420 This is how it's been going for thousands of years, probably even more throughout human history.

00:38:47.260 And so I'm not here and trying to set that straight or whatever.

00:38:50.340 I mean, but I'm just observing this and it's kind of, it's, I don't know, it's a shame.

00:38:54.100 I think some of what's going on too is an unconscious soul crashing.

00:38:57.560 People are actually so quite different on that deep unconscious level that they're worrying about, you know, this one little topic.

00:39:04.920 But it's actually about something much deeper going on.

00:39:08.620 Yeah, probably.

00:39:09.400 I think you're right.

00:39:10.040 Sometimes it's other things that play out and people have things to vent maybe and issues to deal with and everything else.

00:39:20.720 But this is how it is.

00:39:22.160 This is the dynamics of being a human being, the human experience.

00:39:25.680 And I think it's quite unique in the time period we're in right now as well because of the technology we have available to us.

00:39:32.880 And I always go back to that idea.

00:39:34.480 I mean, look at the, look at YouTube comments and everything there and how much vile garbage is on there.

00:39:43.120 And then when you try and delete it, then people say, you're censoring my comment. 0.85

00:39:46.760 And, well, yeah, if you're going to sit there and just call bad names and say horrible things.

00:39:52.700 Exactly.

00:39:53.180 If you have nothing to add or if you have just being plain rude and it doesn't add anything to discussion, it's going to go.

00:40:00.720 I suppose I'm just really disappointed after this last interview too because in the alt media crowd,

00:40:05.400 it's supposed to be people that are searching for more, that are more conscious, that actually want humanity to evolve.

00:40:10.680 But yet they're so quick to point fingers and say horrible things to each other and accuse each other of being disinfo agents.

00:40:18.480 And it's just really rotten.

00:40:20.800 I mean, but remember when you're pointing fingers like that and saying horrible things, don't be surprised when it starts coming back to you.

00:40:27.360 Well, that's what happens.

00:40:28.680 Of course it is.

00:40:30.460 It doesn't matter.

00:40:31.840 Well, at the end of the day, it doesn't matter what you say.

00:40:33.620 Someone is always going to be able to, or be able to, they're going to critique you for whatever reason.

00:40:39.040 They don't like, you know, the way you said something or the way of tone.

00:40:42.160 It's a misunderstanding and they don't understand the dynamics behind something.

00:40:47.100 There's so many things at play.

00:40:48.820 It might just be a bad day.

00:40:51.080 We said the wrong things and we didn't really think about it.

00:40:54.820 But see, all of this is part of reality.

00:40:57.100 This is part of, the map is not the territory.

00:40:59.620 We're not going to be able to come up with a model to explain everything.

00:41:05.100 Reality is reality and this is what's happening.

00:41:07.380 We're not going to be able to come up with a concept of simplification to try to explain everything.

00:41:13.080 I mean, this is just how it is.

00:41:15.420 But no, I agree with you.

00:41:16.860 I think it's a shame.

00:41:18.000 And hopefully along the line, it'll become, I guess the point here is, there's a lot of violence in different ways out there.

00:41:30.780 And I think what's lacking is being a little bit more humble and kind and gentle.

00:41:39.940 And it goes for all sides.

00:41:43.060 This is not about taking sides or anything like that either.

00:41:45.460 But yeah, I really don't know what to say about that.

00:41:48.900 I mean, it is what it is.

00:41:50.580 All you can do is you can, I think you can lead by example.

00:41:54.580 Because otherwise, the same level of critique or whatever that I've been laying out here to a certain extent is just turned back onto me.

00:42:03.820 Because I'm not trying to sit here and tell everybody else how to do it.

00:42:06.520 Because again, then I'm the same way and that can be applied to me.

00:42:09.580 What are you trying to fix me or tell me how to be or whatever?

00:42:12.000 So I'm just kind of observing this and saying that that's what it is.

00:42:15.840 And this is how I see it from my point of view.

00:42:17.960 And we all have the right to do what we want to do.

00:42:21.700 It's not anybody's obligation to respond to the accusations or to fight back if someone begins fighting with us.

00:42:30.020 We have a choice to just, you know, whatever.

00:42:33.460 What do I care about what you say?

00:42:34.980 So what?

00:42:35.440 And just, you know, go back and do your own work instead and focus on the real things of actually getting somewhere and achieving something.

00:42:42.320 Usually it's because people want to fight back.

00:42:44.580 That's why these things begin and that's why they continue. 0.94

00:42:48.300 And parasites exist on every level.

00:42:50.320 Just because somebody researches all day long doesn't mean they're more enlightened either.

00:42:55.720 No, of course not.

00:42:56.420 I mean, again, it's true across the board.

00:42:58.860 I mean, this is, again, as I said, the human experience on all walks of life, no matter what the wording is, people are going to have different demons that they deal and struggle with.

00:43:08.120 It's just part of it.

00:43:09.900 I mean, many people have looked at the examples of some of the pastors in America, these televangelists and whatever else they're called,

00:43:17.600 who one day go and preach about, you know, Jesus saving and love and whatever else.

00:43:25.160 And then the next day they go and, like, rent a rent. 0.83

00:43:28.700 They go and buy or whatever that's really called, a hooker and some crack cocaine or whatever, heroin. 0.98

00:43:37.240 And then they say, oh, yep, it's evidence Satan is in the world.

00:43:40.560 I was tempted there for a little bit, you know.

00:43:43.220 Well, that brings me back to the disinfo claim, which I hear people making all the time.

00:43:46.860 What do you think when you hear those accusations being made?

00:43:50.920 Disinfo, you mean about a certain material or researcher?

00:43:56.180 Yeah, or even certain guests you've had on.

00:43:57.640 Some people have said, there it is, info agents.

00:44:00.000 Yeah, I think people jump to conclusions way too quick.

00:44:03.320 I think that, I think it's, I think it's very simple to do that.

00:44:10.020 It's a very simple way out.

00:44:11.500 And when I've looked at some of the evidence, and I don't say I've claimed, I've looked at all the evidence of every single one and every single accusation and everything out there.

00:44:24.320 But I'm saying that what I've been able to come across when I've been interested in trying to find out if it's a so-called disinformation agent or not.

00:44:32.720 But I haven't been convinced by it in most cases.

00:44:37.620 It's been very, very shady.

00:44:40.180 And I think there's a lot of things lacking there.

00:44:43.420 I think, again, people jump to it way too quick.

00:44:45.320 And I think the dynamics, some of the names of people we've had on the program and some people of these we've met as well, and they seem as very, very honest people and very mellow in their approach.

00:44:59.420 And they might be a little eccentric maybe in certain regards or whatever, but they seem genuine to me just from my feeling and perception.

00:45:10.880 And, again, that's not meant to convince anybody.

00:45:13.660 That's just my own take on it.

00:45:16.440 But I think it's an easy way to try to discredit somebody by calling them a disinfo agent.

00:45:21.360 I think we have to question and wonder if that's really something that, first of all, who's behind the disinformation?

00:45:29.500 Usually it's the government or it's the CIA or COINTELPRO or some program running somewhere.

00:45:35.140 And I think we have to question, do they have nothing better to do than to invade into this little community?

00:45:46.060 But then there are things and hints that come along now and then that seems to indicate that they are.

00:45:52.600 There's this one example, and I apologize if I forget the name right now, but there was this one guy who wrote a paper on how he wanted to infiltrate the 9-11 alternative community or 9-11 research groups or whatever.

00:46:09.100 But, see, I think that what he did there with that paper, that is what the point of it was.

00:46:17.660 That people are going to focus on that paper and now begin to eye everybody else around them as being the potential disinformation agent.

00:46:25.320 So what I'm saying is that by releasing this one paper, he did a whole lot of damage.

00:46:32.380 That's right.

00:46:32.800 Because everybody in that group now begins to eye, oh, maybe he's the one or she's the one or maybe those are at that group.

00:46:38.420 Or, oh, that's right, they talk about that type of research within this community.

00:46:42.820 Therefore, they must be the bunk ones.

00:46:44.160 They're trying to discredit us to the larger context and the larger world.

00:46:48.360 I'm not saying that the government doesn't have the capability or maybe even the interest to infiltrate and to destabilize.

00:46:55.640 And there's certainly evidence that seems to suggest that they've been interested in that in the past.

00:47:00.560 But I think there is a stigma there, too, of trying to, that we jump, or some people jump to that way too quickly.

00:47:08.100 That's all I'm saying.

00:47:09.000 And we have to be careful about that because otherwise we might fulfill the job that one of those papers is intended to do, which is create just havoc and disharmony within it.

00:47:20.080 And just, come on, relax.

00:47:22.060 I mean, really.

00:47:22.960 It's like just, it's information at the end of the day.

00:47:28.040 It's information.

00:47:29.340 And sure, information can be very important.

00:47:32.080 It can change the world.

00:47:33.140 It has in the past.

00:47:34.020 I'm not saying that either.

00:47:36.780 But I'm saying that the personal decision-making must be there and for us to either actively want to take part of something or not.

00:47:45.720 And I think there's a whole lot of people who just follow along and go along to get along or to belong to something or whatever.

00:47:51.840 And I think that's when the most damage happened.

00:47:54.340 I mean, look at all the things that happened in world history.

00:47:57.100 It's always about people who are following someone else who's saying something.

00:48:01.500 That's the major damage from Napoleon to Stalin.

00:48:04.640 You know, it's like everyone before and after. 1.00

00:48:07.060 It's because people actually are so stupid that they line up and align themselves by one of these tyrannical psychopaths and are willing to lay down their own lives in the process. 1.00

00:48:18.460 And in that, when they do that, the whole freaking world burns in world war, you know. 1.00

00:48:24.760 So, idiots, wake up. 1.00

00:48:26.740 Think for yourself. 1.00

00:48:27.860 You know, those who are out there and fighting and being part of wars.

00:48:31.580 And it's like a, it's a scale there.

00:48:34.160 It's a scale.

00:48:34.840 That's all I'm saying.

00:48:35.420 You can be in a tiny little infighting and that's still a version of a war, really.

00:48:41.180 And then it's all the way up to the military-industrial complex or fighting their battles.

00:48:47.200 That's the bigger scale, the macro version of those wars.

00:48:51.320 So, yeah, it's always appealed to sensibility and rationality, some humor, some portion relax, you know.

00:49:01.640 And just that kind of laid-back approach.

00:49:05.300 Of course, it's serious.

00:49:06.200 Of course, it's important.

00:49:09.220 But sometimes I think people forget to just kind of enjoy their life on this planet as well and just realize where they're at and what incredible place this really is.

00:49:20.900 And how shitty it's turned because people are so freaking obsessed with these tiny details about what really happened 50 years ago or not, you know.

00:49:29.360 Sometimes your guests make some pretty big claims and oftentimes what they say doesn't come true.

00:49:35.320 What goes through your head when you hear people making big predictions or claims?

00:49:39.080 Well, again, I always stick with a grain of salt.

00:49:40.900 I have this approach that anything is possible.

00:49:42.640 Anything could happen.

00:49:43.540 And certainly weird things have happened before.

00:49:46.740 And it doesn't mean that weird things couldn't happen in the future.

00:49:51.420 But as you develop, as you research, as you walk your own path, you tend to get more and more wary of people who have big claims that come along.

00:50:05.400 And that's just how it is.

00:50:07.860 There's always going to be opportunists who jump on the bandwagon of, you know, now it's another Planet X scare in the works.

00:50:17.720 And I remember it in 2003 and before that it was earlier and these cycles come and go.

00:50:26.440 And it's 2012 and it's doomsday and it's war with Iran and everything.

00:50:33.000 And again, anything is possible.

00:50:34.420 And I'm not saying that, so I'm not going to discount that it's not going to happen.

00:50:42.220 But some conviction that people seem to have is just kind of a little scary to me.

00:50:47.920 So what I do personally is that I take it with a grain of salt.

00:50:50.940 I listen to it.

00:50:51.620 All right, you know, lay it out there, see what it is, see what they say.

00:50:56.060 There have been catastrophic things happening in the past.

00:51:00.160 But I think usually it's, people like to ramp it up too.

00:51:07.640 It's just part of the human condition.

00:51:10.740 People like to exaggerate, to get people involved and drawn into things.

00:51:16.760 And I think it's important to hear people out.

00:51:19.300 And so what the approach is for me anyway on the radio show and stuff like that is that everything is a study.

00:51:27.820 Everything is a part of the research.

00:51:29.780 It's like anthropology and studying psychology at the same time.

00:51:35.940 You know, what is it to make people believe in these things?

00:51:38.820 And why are people drawn into believing them?

00:51:42.380 And there's many things you can learn by just listening, you know.

00:51:48.240 So that's what we do.

00:51:49.520 And there's other people who can't take that or won't do that.

00:51:52.180 And then just don't listen to it.

00:51:54.580 It's fine.

00:51:56.060 See, there's this one approach by Carl Jung.

00:51:59.380 I think he had a concept that he didn't discount anything to try to be able to determine the state of the patient that he worked with.

00:52:08.820 And he assumed that, well, he didn't assume.

00:52:13.180 He just had the approach that everything that they say, everything that they experience is reality because it's part of that person's world.

00:52:22.760 This is how they perceive things.

00:52:24.620 So anything from dreams to, you know, seeing UFOs and everything was things that he took into the picture.

00:52:32.080 And he didn't laugh at it or exclude it just because it was outlandish.

00:52:35.960 The approach is everything means something, potentially, at least for the person who is experiencing it.

00:52:43.580 It's a message in that.

00:52:45.720 And only after hearing out a person, you can maybe come to a conclusion about them, basically.

00:52:53.780 In his case, he started them to, you know, diagnose them, I guess, from a psychological point of view.

00:53:00.660 But something within them was a reason why they had the dreams they had or the sightings they had or even the delusions, if that's what it is, that they had.

00:53:11.560 And so that's part of something.

00:53:12.760 That's part of the message that comes to you from the subconscious.

00:53:19.160 And so if you can encode that or interpret that, it's going to be able to tell you something.

00:53:24.100 And so the same thing goes when we listen to different people.

00:53:30.040 What if there's a dynamic at play that different people need to hear different things, even if they are outlandish?

00:53:36.780 Because, again, as I said before, this unlocks something within them.

00:53:40.280 It shakes something loose.

00:53:41.800 What if the world looked like a place where only kind of agreed-upon state-approved matters were discussed or something like that?

00:53:55.520 You know, it's like a nightmare, worse than any Orwellian nightmare ever.

00:54:00.500 Thought control and, you know, microchips implanted in the brain of limitations.

00:54:05.380 No, we've made it our task not to focus on nonsense because it's not our—we focus on reality only, the truth 100%.

00:54:14.180 It's like robotic. It's dead.

00:54:17.800 It's like, well, where's the mystery in this?

00:54:20.480 Where's the drive? Where's the mysticism?

00:54:23.680 Where's the spiritual deeper components to the dynamic of being a human being?

00:54:29.440 You know, we understand so little about ourselves, and yet we're so quick to try to edit things out because we think it's nonsensical, because we don't think it means anything to us.

00:54:40.680 So I think an open approach, then, will have—will be something valuable, you know, of value to us at the end of the day, even if we might not understand it right away.

00:54:54.280 See, so many things have happened in world history where things fall into place of the right person at the right time, being at the right place to deter an accident or to come up with a new invention, and also mistakes.

00:55:09.720 Just think about how mistakes puts things in there and mixes up things, which causes us to look at things in a new way.

00:55:17.820 Being a musician, I know that making a mistake in a song can be some of the greatest things you do because it adds a whole new dynamics to it.

00:55:24.720 Whoops, in a note I never even thought about before, but hey, listen how that sounded. It was just incredible.

00:55:29.400 And so, as we experiment, as we try out different things and listen to different things, I think we awaken dormant things within ourselves.

00:55:42.220 And at the end of the day, it's an imagination thing. It's a dreaming thing. It's a spiritual thing.

00:55:49.680 Although we're having this very real and physical experience, we are a creature that lives in two different worlds.

00:55:56.160 And we're a mental being and we're a physical being, and one affects the other.

00:56:02.700 And so, let's not forget about the whole.

00:56:05.040 And just because we consider it to be something stupid or something that we don't agree with, again, we don't realize that that's going to be perceived by other people and what the result of that is going to be at the end of the day.

00:56:17.860 If humanity is looking for new ways out of the energy crisis, of the economic situation, of just bad ideas in general, maybe there will be something that shakes the tree enough so an apple falls down and we can feed on new ideas, so to speak.

00:56:37.000 And as other people have argued, this might have been that took out humanity from the sameness rut that they were in for a couple of millions of years, where something seemed to have happened overnight that basically just gave an incredible spark of ideas.

00:56:54.840 Boom! And it just was an explosion.

00:56:57.160 And all of a sudden, we can do tools and we can mess with fire and come up with things and art on cave walls and all kinds of incredible stuff.

00:57:07.000 And what we see in front of us today with our iPads and big screen TVs and internet and everything is basically just an updated version of those initial ideas, a reflection of a desire to convey other ideas and imagery and art and everything else.

00:57:25.640 So, yeah, I think we would do ourselves a disservice if we discount things too much.

00:57:30.260 But again, what we choose to spend time on, that should be our own choice.

00:57:34.100 And I think no one should come along and tell anybody else what they should or what they shouldn't spend their time on while on this planet.

00:57:41.180 Would you like to say anything about the new members website?

00:57:44.080 Okay, sure.

00:57:45.140 Yeah, we've built a completely new members website with a whole lot of new functions and features that we're really proud of.

00:57:52.600 Taking a lot of time to build it and create it the way it now looks and feels and stuff.

00:57:58.880 Often there's some things with it that's really cool.

00:58:01.440 One of them is the comments section.

00:58:03.440 So people can put their own input in there for each of the shows and what they think or add on to something or whatever.

00:58:11.300 We've also updated our RSS feeds in a completely new way.

00:58:17.180 So we now have our entire archives available through RSS feeds, which is pretty cool back to 2006 and all the way up to today.

00:58:27.120 And it's just a basic, much better server it's on.

00:58:31.380 It's much quicker and faster.

00:58:33.020 The search function is much better.

00:58:36.080 But there's more coming there.

00:58:37.440 We're still working on stuff.

00:58:38.840 So more material and more features are going to add on to it.

00:58:44.420 Well, thank you, Henrik.

00:58:45.480 It's always quite different interviewing my husband.

00:58:48.300 Yeah, that's different, isn't it?

00:58:51.040 Thank you, Lana.

00:58:51.780 Great to be here.

00:58:53.000 If you like what we do, you can help us by becoming a member.

00:58:55.880 We're a small team, independent with no commercials.

00:58:58.160 For the price of a cocktail, once a month you can listen to over six years of archived radio.

00:59:03.320 We're going to leave you today with a song by Solar Fields called Discovering.

00:59:06.980 Be kind to yourself and be kind to others because all the research in the world won't necessarily make you a better person.

00:59:12.620 And remember, we're always changing, so go easy on each other.

00:59:15.560 Talk to you later.

00:59:16.140 We'll be right back.

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Radio 3Fourteen - September 24, 2012

Red Ice 101

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