The Myth of Male Power
Episode Stats
Length
1 hour and 15 minutes
Words per Minute
159.76456
Summary
Dr. Warren Farrell is the author of seven books on men's and women's issues. He came to prominence in the 1970s when he championed the cause of feminism, serving on the New York City Board of the National Organization of Women (NOW). Now, when NOW took anti-male and anti-father positions, he began advocacy for boys, men, and fathers. He s now recognized as one of the most important figures in the modern men's movement.
Transcript
00:04:05.940
I need to move to a new area for a new job. I've
00:09:51.740
and, and getting liberated themselves. And that
00:12:32.920
to a quarter of a million dollar fine, um, to a
00:12:47.120
um, at the age of 18. So if you have ambivalence
00:13:08.040
frequently and so on. Now, so we would set up a
00:13:23.420
to the point that females died in, in, in battle
00:13:26.400
at, at a ratio of 27 to one, which is, which is
00:13:36.620
life, we would have seven offices of men, federal
00:13:42.580
offices of women's health, as opposed to having
00:13:50.020
offices of, uh, men's health. Uh, we would, uh, we
00:13:56.960
fact that, that men over 85, um, uh, commit suicide at
00:14:01.940
1,350, um, the rate of women over 85. Um, and, and, and,
00:14:07.900
but right now, um, the system that's set up, we don't
00:14:15.100
1,350, the rate of, of women over 85. So, and we would
00:14:20.400
go on and on. We would make sure that, that the, that
00:14:22.880
the hazardous jobs were jobs that women took so that,
00:14:26.280
that women were the ones, uh, risking their lives in,
00:14:28.960
in coal mines and, um, and, and, and working in
00:14:32.680
sewers and cleaning them out and, um, you know,
00:14:35.200
working on oil rigs and so on. This is the way the
00:14:37.940
world would look if the world was a patriarchy, which
00:14:40.520
meant that it was set up by men to benefit men at the
00:14:44.820
expense of women. Then what the way the world was set
00:14:48.800
up in the system had nothing to do with patriarchy
00:14:51.760
per se. What it had to do was the needs to survive. And
00:14:55.880
in the needs to survive, neither our mother nor our
00:14:58.640
father had rights. Um, they had responsibilities,
00:15:01.960
they had obligations. If we talked to, you know, when
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I talked to my father about the, you know, when I
00:15:06.520
was at the beginning of the feminist movement, yeah, he
00:15:09.020
would say things like, you know, I just had this
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problem with this, this word rights. Um, it's sort
00:15:16.340
of like we, our life was not Warren about rights. It
00:15:20.400
was about responsibilities. It was about obligations. You
00:15:24.860
something, it was, it was like a fingernail that a
00:15:27.240
chalkboard from his perspective. And he saw the
00:15:30.920
future of people who talked about rights, of the
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future of the people who talk about rights with
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entitlement. And entitlement was not what created a
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I completely agree with that. I, it bugs me when I
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Totally, totally. I mean, you're not even born with a
00:15:52.000
right to live. You're, you're, you're born, period.
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specifically, I'd say white, straight men are the
00:16:02.060
worst treated demographic today from affirmative
00:16:04.380
action to college admission and scholarships, to
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portrayal in media and TV, to courts that side with
00:16:10.140
women in custody cases. And then of course, there's no
00:16:14.380
demographic. Yet somehow this discrimination is
00:16:17.080
okay. And feminists actually wonder why there's a
00:16:19.460
men's rights movement that's growing in numbers. So
00:16:22.060
if men are the force and power, why are they being
00:16:26.220
Yes. Well, they're being discriminated against in
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part because they are believed to be the ones that
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have the power. So until you understand, and, and, and
00:16:35.780
so people who believe in equality of opportunity,
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confuse equality of opportunity with equality of
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outcome. And they, you know, they say if everything
00:16:45.780
isn't equal, it must be because the white males have
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made a system that doesn't allow us to become, or this
00:16:52.740
group or that group to be equal to another group. And
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that would be a little bit like saying, you know, that,
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you know, the NBA, the National Basketball Association,
00:17:00.980
it really discriminates against whites because there are
00:17:03.680
more percentage of whites in the NBA than there are
00:17:06.500
blacks in relation to the population. And so, you know,
00:17:10.460
we, and so the deeper question that always needs to be
00:17:14.620
asked is, um, do men have power? And if, if they do, and we
00:17:21.560
want a world that is egalitarian, that has equal, at least equal
00:17:24.880
opportunity for everybody, um, is, is, is the fact that more men
00:17:30.920
are in positions like Congress or the Senate, uh, Senate or, um, on
00:17:36.440
the, um, Supreme Court or in CEOs, does this mean men have more
00:17:41.100
power? And from, if you define power as influence in institutions
00:17:48.300
outside of the family, men clearly have more power and white
00:17:53.900
males clearly have a disproportional amount, um, of that
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power. The, um, but if you define power differently as having
00:18:02.700
control over your own life, being able to make the choices that
00:18:07.200
you want with your life, having the encouragement to go inside
00:18:10.840
of yourself, uh, when you're a child and decide who you are and
00:18:14.380
what you're motivated by, and then being honored by the rest
00:18:17.760
of society for the choices that you make, then we're talking
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about a totally different game. So for example, when a woman
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and a man, um, are married in their middle class, uh, and
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above, um, and they have a child and the, um, the, the woman
00:18:33.460
generally generates in that situation three decisions. Um,
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do I want to be full-time involved with the children or the
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child? Do I want to be full-time involved with the workplace
00:18:43.060
or do I want to do some combination of both? Uh, the man has
00:18:47.020
three options also. Um, option one is to work full-time. Option
00:18:51.580
two is to work full-time and option three is to work full-time
00:18:55.640
or, you know, if he's a working class man, work two jobs, or
00:18:59.460
if he's a corporate man, you know, working overtime at the job
00:19:03.080
that he, that he has. And so the, so he will then, so then
00:19:07.980
let's look at what happens. So let's say the woman says, I
00:19:11.160
really want to be home with the children. And 40% of women
00:19:14.220
say that. And among women who are married and are middle-class
00:19:19.720
women, the much higher percentages of women say, I want to be
00:19:23.280
home with the children full-time. That's, that's their desire.
00:19:27.020
That's their choice. Um, and so the, so when that decision is
00:19:31.920
made, first of all, the man is usually not even a part of that
00:19:35.380
decision-making process. So that's the first really major
00:19:38.840
inequality. If the, a man and a woman are supposedly equal in
00:19:43.980
having children, then both of them should have as much say as
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to who wants to work full-time, who wants to work part-time, who
00:19:49.580
wants to be full-time involved with the children. But normally
00:19:52.760
speaking, the woman generates a choice among those three options. And
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the man sits back and supports her choice. And then based on her
00:20:00.500
choice, she, he then figures out whether he needs to work more
00:20:04.260
hours than he did. So if she chooses to stay home full-time
00:20:08.060
with the children, now they have one source of income rather
00:20:10.940
than two. And so he will, statistically speaking, begin to
00:20:14.960
make more than he's ever made before. So the feminist look at
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his now making more than he's ever made before as just one more
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example of a man earning more than a woman and therefore having more
00:20:28.300
power than a woman because he advances more quickly through
00:20:31.340
whatever hierarchy he's a part of. But if you look at power as control
00:20:35.160
over your own life, that man is actually has less power than a woman
00:20:39.760
because he never had a chance to make a decision as to whether he
00:20:43.500
wanted to be full-time involved with the workplace at home or some
00:20:46.280
combination of both. And he's now feeling obligated to earn money that
00:20:50.440
somebody else will spend, the family will spend, while he will probably be
00:20:54.420
more stressed and die sooner. And feeling obligated to earn money that
00:20:58.020
somebody else spends while you die sooner is not my definition of power.
00:21:02.400
My definition. So what men have learned to call power is learning how to
00:21:07.480
climb each rung of a ladder to get to the top of that ladder. And feminists
00:21:14.480
have said, ah, there's more men at the top of that ladder than there are
00:21:18.780
women. Men have more power. And what I'm saying in the myth of male
00:21:22.720
power is, excuse me, until you have the choice of which wall you put that
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ladder on, which the wall of being a corporate male, the wall of working for
00:21:34.860
the government, the wall of working for a public, a law firm that's publicly,
00:21:41.160
does public service, a law firm that doesn't do public service, you being an
00:21:45.400
artist, a writer, or being supported by a woman economically while you take care
00:21:49.440
of the children. Those would be examples of the different walls. Until you have a
00:21:54.300
choice of which wall you want to put that ladder on, you don't have power. If all
00:22:00.540
your social pressures and your willingness of a woman to marry you is based on your
00:22:08.060
willingness to put the ladder on the wall of money producing, then you don't have that
00:22:15.460
choice to feel like you're valued, loved, cared for, and respected as a man, not just
00:22:21.660
by women, but by your parents and by male peers at your 20th high school
00:22:26.380
anniversary reunion. And so that's the questions that are not being asked. That's the
00:22:32.020
questions that are core to the under, until that re-examination of what I, or in the
00:22:39.480
myth of male power that I talk about, the re-examination of what power is, occurs, we
00:22:46.520
will always believe that the white male is the, is the, the usurper of more power when
00:22:55.800
in fact he's the one at this point in history that has the least amount of choice
00:23:00.120
and their belief power. Yeah, definitely. Well, feminists and Marxists, they love to
00:23:04.520
blame men for colonialism, slavery, racism, war, corrupt governments, you know, all this
00:23:09.080
stuff, and they leave out all the good stuff. But how do you respond to those who try and
00:23:12.420
blame men for events in history or current political problems? Because that's a common
00:23:16.260
theme I keep hearing. You know, that's as, that's as accurate and as inaccurate as
00:23:21.540
blaming mothers for all the problems in history, because as the Catholic Church says, give me the
00:23:26.340
child for the first five years, and I'll give you the adult. And, you know, you can, you
00:23:31.800
can say that, that, that the mother who had the responsibility for the primary, the socialization
00:23:39.340
of the child in those first five years was responsible for training boys to be more likely
00:23:45.640
to go to war, training girls to be more likely to be at home. You know, they were, mothers were
00:23:52.220
oftentimes the, the, the, the dictators of what, what morality was in a culture and so
00:23:57.480
on. Or you could say that it had nothing to do, you know, with mothers per se and fathers
00:24:02.980
per se, that we, that, that, that the really controlling force was the need to survive. And
00:24:09.860
to survive, we, you know, almost everything, almost all the decisions we made in the world
00:24:15.840
were ones based on that, that, that, that parameter. And the people who didn't make that
00:24:22.040
with, with, with survival in mind, didn't survive. So they're not here today, you know, to talk
00:24:30.520
about it. And, and so, yeah, so whenever you look at something through one ideology of, if
00:24:38.240
you, if you start out with men have the power, then it appears that men have been in charge
00:24:44.460
of everything. If you started out from a different ideology that, that because mothers had the
00:24:49.920
control over the children for the most part in most countries, in most places, in most
00:24:54.340
points in history for the first five years, therefore they had the power. But in maybe
00:25:00.080
upper class, upper class homes, nannies had the power then by that type of logic. So there
00:25:06.080
was, you know, we, and it's, but the, but the issue was not men or women. The, the point
00:25:13.620
that feminists miss is that men love women. Men were willing to die for women. Men are
00:25:21.440
willing to die before women are even hurt. That's why men in the 19th century who were
00:25:27.040
called gentlemen had to wear a sword so that if their fiance, anybody who became their fiance
00:25:32.780
or more serious, their, their wife, they, if that fiance was even insulted, they were expected
00:25:40.220
to take a sword and to challenge the man who insulted their wife or their, their fiance to
00:25:45.380
a duel. Um, and so we, we sort of talk about, you know, women were property. Well, that's
00:25:51.420
true. Women were often treated as property and men were expected to, to die to protect their
00:25:57.460
property. Um, and so in a way that put men at a lower position than the women did, you
00:26:02.920
know, and men weren't at all lovable by women or respected by men until they had property.
00:26:07.980
And so it was to look at it as, um, to look at it without understanding the, the role of
00:26:13.620
survival in the process is to pretty much guarantee that you're, you're going to misunderstand
00:26:17.880
everything. And unfortunately the people in the world who know the least about men, who
00:26:23.340
have the least compassion for men, who understand the least about male, female relationships are
00:26:29.600
the, are the leading feminists in the world. And unfortunately they're located at our top
00:26:34.820
universities. Um, and they're, they're teaching gender studies courses. Um, and they're, so we
00:26:40.820
have the people who know the least about men teaching courses on male, female, gender at the
00:26:47.640
top universities in the world. Well, most of those teachers, they don't even like men. They don't even
00:26:51.860
have sex with men. So I mean, I don't, I don't know the data on that, but the most important thing
00:26:58.280
is whether they like or dislike or have, or don't have sex with men is that they do not
00:27:03.020
have a way of looking at men that helps boys and men and women and girls love each other.
00:27:11.520
And that is where that's, you know, you know, to paraphrase John Lennon, it's all, you know,
00:27:17.420
um, it's all, it's really all about love. Well, just the other day I was reading some,
00:27:21.700
I say insane gender studies courses being taught. One I saw was, and was how to be gay,
00:27:27.920
male homosexuality and initiation. Another one was encouraging the feminization of men for the
00:27:33.180
fate of the planet. So is there a push to feminize men at this time? Yes, there is. And part of that
00:27:40.640
push is good. And part of that push is bad. Um, you know, our gender, our, our traditional gender
00:27:45.780
roles were very narrow and confining and women didn't have nearly as much opportunity to, you
00:27:53.320
know, express the assertive side. I remember when I went to high school and, um, the, you know,
00:27:58.560
my guidance counselor would, um, you know, if, if, if, if a, if a girl, young girl or young woman
00:28:04.160
in my, um, high school was, um, really bright and, you know, and had, had it together. Um, you know,
00:28:11.960
she, the, the guidance counselor would say, well, you can be a nurse, you can be a teacher. Um, you
00:28:17.100
know, and, you know, um, that, that would be pretty much the options, professional options she was
00:28:23.080
offered as a bright woman. And, um, and so it's wonderful that young women today are being told,
00:28:31.680
you know, um, you go girl and, you know, do anything you want and get the wind beneath your
00:28:36.640
wings and all options are, uh, you know, should be open to you and there's, it should be nothing
00:28:41.220
that you shouldn't consider the possibility of doing. Um, and we need to, to, to, um, mix that
00:28:49.760
in with helping the young woman understand the trade-offs of becoming whatever she wishes to
00:28:55.480
become if she becomes an Olympic star. Um, that's wonderful if you hold open that possibility
00:29:00.380
for her, but it's sad if you don't help her understand that everything she's going to have
00:29:05.180
to give up in terms of friendships and time and free time and, um, so on in order to become
00:29:10.580
that Olympic star. And so sometimes we paint the dream without the, without the hard work
00:29:14.980
that it takes to get to that dream. Um, and so conversely, um, men in order to protect women
00:29:20.860
and in order to be willing to go to war and die, uh, for both women and, um, their country
00:29:27.180
and to protect other men and children, uh, they had to learn to disconnect from their
00:29:32.380
feelings. So for example, if you, um, if I'm at war with a guy and I really get very, very
00:29:38.480
close emotionally to him, um, the closer that I get to him emotionally, if when he, if he's
00:29:44.900
killed and his blood spatters all over my body and bits and pieces of his skin and guts are
00:29:50.800
falling all over me and I, the closer I am to him, the more, the more emotional damage
00:29:59.460
that it's going to do to me, the greater the chance of my never recovering from that.
00:30:05.140
So I had to learn that when the going gets tough, the tough get going, not when the going
00:30:09.280
gets tough, the tough get in touch with your feelings. Um, or, you know, when I, when I
00:30:13.280
learn, when I meet a man, instead of like say, Hey bro, you know, how are you? You know,
00:30:17.780
that type of thing or, Hey dude, um, you know, and you know, um, you, I really get to appreciate
00:30:23.380
him, know him, know what's going on inside of him. And so in every way, and you know,
00:30:29.140
when, when a football player in a, in a high school in the United States today is playing
00:30:34.820
football, um, you know, the cheerleader is going first and 10, do it again. Now exactly
00:30:39.320
what is she cheering for when she cheers for do it again? She's not cheering for him expressing
00:30:44.760
his feelings. She's cheering for him, risking spinal cord injuries, concussions, broken noses,
00:30:50.180
uh, dislocated shoulders. And she's saying, do it again for the sake of bringing a piece of leather
00:30:55.320
a few yards further on the football field. And if he does do it again and does it effectively,
00:31:00.520
he's considered a hero and her body is being, you know, that saying first and 10, do it again.
00:31:06.600
That's, you know, for in seventh grade, a beautiful girl's body. This is the first exposure
00:31:12.300
for many guys to a beautiful woman in the flesh. And she's basically saying, when you do it again,
00:31:18.120
when you risk your body, when you risk your, um, your, your mind, you can cut it in the terms
00:31:23.580
of a concussion again, um, my love, my sexuality, my adoration of you will increase. And so he's
00:31:30.980
learning. And, and also his, his guy friends, um, are saying the same thing to him and his parents
00:31:36.180
are coming out on Thanksgiving and cheering for him when he risks his body. And I just went to my
00:31:40.800
50th high school reunion, not too long ago. And, you know, the, the guy who was the quarterback
00:31:45.220
and the other guy who was the, and who scored the most touchdowns on the football team, they
00:31:50.780
were by far and away the most sought after people, um, in, you know, in the, uh, um, at the
00:31:57.200
50th high school. So you have the legacy of, you know, just performing well in high school.
00:32:03.760
Um, but all of this required these guys to disconnect from their feelings. And, and so
00:32:11.660
now, is it more feminine to be in touch with your feelings? The standard stereotype ways?
00:32:16.960
Yes. Is it healthy for men to be more in touch with their feelings? Overall? Yes. In relation
00:32:21.460
to what men are. On the other hand, you can take every virtue taken to its extreme becomes
00:32:25.760
a vice. Um, if you get so in touch with your feelings that every time something goes wrong,
00:32:30.180
you're crying and you're, you're, you're a drama king or queen, then you have, then, then
00:32:35.080
you prevent yourself from doing what you need to do in emergencies. And so we, you know, both
00:32:40.880
sexes need to understand and, um, get skillsets that were, that were deprived, uh, that were
00:32:49.640
deprived, uh, in the normal traditional socialization of, of, uh, gender roles.
00:32:54.520
Yeah. Do you ever think about what was it like in pre-Christian pagan days with the, the roles
00:33:00.680
were between the genders and what their relationships were like? Do you think it was healthier than
00:33:04.120
this modern liberalism kind of religious thing we have going today?
00:33:08.300
I think overall the religious part, no, but the, uh, we, we've always been, um, in the United
00:33:15.340
States and most, you know, most countries in the world throughout history have had very strong
00:33:19.160
superstitions and religions. That's the only way that we could cope with the stress, you know,
00:33:23.200
and, you know, the fear that there would be, you know, seven years of, of feast would be
00:33:27.980
followed by seven years of salmon. And so almost all religions were very crucial to the survival
00:33:33.760
of a culture because they helped to unify that culture. So, you know, we probably haven't
00:33:39.320
inside of us a little bit of a, um, a gene for the belief in, in, um, in God, because the
00:33:45.180
belief in God allowed us to unify and therefore battle an opposing, um, uh, kinship network
00:33:53.200
or opposing, um, country and be more successful in doing so. If you had that type of belief,
00:33:58.720
that doesn't mean there is a God. It just means that the belief in there being a God,
00:34:03.240
um, um, is, um, probably had some positive functionality for many years. The problem is
00:34:08.920
that it is, it is, um, it is also, you know, very dysfunctional in many ways to believe that
00:34:15.780
something external is magically controlling your future or that it, that if you just, um,
00:34:21.720
you know, that if there's, um, a trillion people out there that, uh, a prayer and saying,
00:34:27.740
gee, I would like some, um, some ice cream for dessert for dinner, um, that that will be paid
00:34:33.300
attention to, um, by you, um, by the, somebody listening to you upstairs.
00:34:38.440
Yeah, I was thinking about that European pre-Christian pagan days, and I was thinking,
00:34:44.460
hmm, I wonder if suicide rates were high then, and probably not because one, men were their
00:34:48.480
own masters, and two, they probably had healthier relationships and they were more in touch with
00:34:52.300
the primordial traditions and, and nature, not this religion and liberalism we have today.
00:34:59.760
No, I would overall, let me give a perspective on that. Um, one of the things I do is teach
00:35:04.840
couples communication. And, um, during the class, I teach people how to, um, how to handle personal
00:35:12.180
criticism without becoming defensive. And I basically start out with the class and saying
00:35:17.120
that historically speaking and biologically, when we heard a criticism, uh, we responded,
00:35:22.820
um, it had the potential for being an enemy. So it was functional for us to get up our defenses
00:35:28.600
to defend against being killed by the enemy. And it was even more functional for us to kill
00:35:33.040
the enemy before the enemy killed us. If we did that, we survived. However, if, um, you
00:35:39.580
and your partner, um, in life, um, are having challenges with each other and you open up and
00:35:45.660
express some of your feelings of, of hurt or pain to your partner, and he or she says, you
00:35:51.680
know, some version of, um, and, and he, he or she becomes defensive, um, you learn to shut
00:35:57.620
your mouth and to not open it again, because unless you really, unless it's so important that
00:36:02.700
you're willing to risk the possibility of escalation. And so the, what was functional
00:36:08.180
for survival is dysfunctional for love. Um, and so the, um, it really, but if I ask, so
00:36:17.020
I, I, I work with the people, the couples in my group to, to learn that. And somewhere
00:36:21.540
during the workshop, I say, by the way, um, how many of you feel that your communication
00:36:26.540
even before you came into this workshop was better than your parents and your
00:36:30.640
grandparents and virtually everybody in the group says yes. And then I say, well, if I
00:36:36.380
were to, but we all agree that our grandparents had a divorce rate that was lower than the divorce
00:36:41.880
rate of people today. And so does that mean that, um, better communication leads to more
00:36:50.440
divorces? And of course the answer is no, that's not what it leads to. That's a correlation that
00:36:56.800
doesn't have a cause attached to it, but what the cause of the greater amount of divorces.
00:37:02.680
And if you ask a different question and say, who, who's happier us today or our grandparents,
00:37:11.400
that's a much tougher question to ask, even though their communication, I mean, that doesn't ask
00:37:16.820
but answer, even though our grandparents communication was probably significantly worse
00:37:23.140
than most couples communication is today. Um, the grandparents may have been happier because
00:37:29.440
they had lower expectations because life was simple. The choices were simpler. Um, and, you
00:37:35.680
know, now if, you know, if a kid doesn't have an iPhone, you feel, you know, he or she feels
00:37:40.680
like, you know, they're discriminated against and they're left out of the group and they're,
00:37:45.540
you know, that type of thing. And if the parents prevent them from having a Facebook page or
00:37:49.140
doing Twitter or whatever, um, you know, they, they feel deprived. And, uh, and so, um, you
00:37:54.920
know, whereas my father used to say, you know, what I got for Christmas was an orange each year
00:38:00.460
and that was it. And, and so, you know, the, the idea of us getting more than a couple of
00:38:07.380
presents for Christmas was sort of really hard for him to work with. And my dad was born on
00:38:13.280
Christmas and he just got a Christmas and birthday gift all in one. For him, I do feel sorry.
00:38:19.140
So if we discuss our PC culture today, do you think it's negatively affecting men and young
00:38:25.640
boys growing up in this kind of environment? Yes. Um, you know, I've given complex answers to
00:38:31.680
every question, but I love that when I can give a clear yes to, um, and it's because PC isn't by
00:38:39.960
definition bad, um, if it's at the very beginning stages, but almost every, every, almost by definition,
00:38:47.920
political correctness means that you can't speak about certain things, um, without getting into
00:38:54.400
trouble. And the moment you move speech into that context, you undermine the very concept of what the
00:39:00.560
first amendment and freedom of speech was about. And you certainly undermine everything a university
00:39:06.160
is supposed to be about. And so for there to be, you know, when I grew up and I'm 71 years of age and
00:39:12.040
I grew up during the Vietnam war and the free speech movement was, you know, the, with that,
00:39:16.360
the universities were the center of freedom of speech. We were the center of the group of people
00:39:20.780
that, that said that, um, that the, you know, the McCarthy was, you know, just an evil person for,
00:39:28.320
you know, wanting to, you know, make sure that anyone who spoke in positive, in positive ways about
00:39:33.520
Russia or communism was immediately going to be suspicious. And so here we are at a point. We,
00:39:40.580
we were at that point, a point in a point in history where the universities were at the core
00:39:45.000
of articulating the importance of, of, of multiple ways of thinking and looking at things and questioning
00:39:51.620
the way, you know, the, the, the, the center of the first group in history that said, maybe going to
00:39:58.100
war, uh, was not the right thing to do. We need to question the war and ask for the motives and
00:40:02.940
things like that. And then we've gone from the university being that to not being able to say
00:40:08.280
in the university, anything in a gender class, almost anything that is male positive without
00:40:13.800
being ostracized in that class and without being, and if you challenge, you know, so for example,
00:40:19.820
I'm playing tennis a few years ago with, um, with the president of Northwestern University and we
00:40:25.120
finished the tennis, um, we were, we belonged to a same thing tag together. We didn't know who the
00:40:29.100
other one was before we played tennis. We just got, we just met at the tennis court and we finished
00:40:33.620
the tennis game. And he says, well, you know, what do you do? And I tell him that, you know,
00:40:36.340
I'm into, and I describe what, um, men's issues are. And he goes, wow, that's really fascinating.
00:40:41.600
We don't have any of that at Northwestern University. And I said, well, would you like to make
00:40:46.020
Northwestern University the first major university in the world that has a genuine male studies
00:40:52.840
curriculum to not be, uh, to not replace the women's studies curriculum, but to be synergistic
00:40:58.880
with the women's studies curriculum. He said, I liked the way you put that, but he said,
00:41:02.820
well, and he smiled at me and somewhat condescending smile. And he said, you know, Warren, I would be,
00:41:07.960
um, I would be not a university president long enough to get that implemented. If I even articulated
00:41:17.040
that the moment I articulated that the feminist would in essence kill me, um, you know, academically.
00:41:24.640
And so then I said to him, well, is there any way, shape or form that there could be, um, men's
00:41:31.500
studies courses at Northwestern University? And without missing a beat, he said, sure,
00:41:38.300
sue the university. And I said, tell me more. He said, if you, if you sued us, then I would be a
00:41:44.900
hero for preventing the university from losing money in a lawsuit. Um, and therefore my forming a men's
00:41:54.120
studies course or curriculum would see, would be, would seem to be the necessary political power
00:42:01.680
response to prevent the force of that lawsuit from overwhelming us. Then I'd be a hero. It took him a
00:42:10.380
minute to think of that. Um, so, and yet it's been hard for me to organize and get, um, in order to do,
00:42:18.460
do something like that, you have to have two major factors. You have to have students at a university
00:42:23.440
that are actually, that do want to belong to, or be part of a men's studies course. And then second, you have
00:42:30.220
to have some, you know, good pro bono lawyers or a good, you know, a good, um, um, contribution to finance
00:42:37.400
lawyers to, to make that happen. But I would pretty much assure one that if when, if, if a group of
00:42:44.620
students got together and did that with a couple of good lawyers working with them, that they would
00:42:49.500
make change, that that would make national publicity and that would get universities all over the country
00:42:55.880
to be very fearful of, um, doing anything, but, um, but really re-examining that issue. And that that,
00:43:04.060
and that that would lead to, and once that happened in the United States, it would begin to happen all
00:43:08.400
over the industrialized world. Well, it's as dangerous as starting a white students union.
00:43:13.280
You know, some people have tried to do that and all hell broke loose. People accuse them of being
00:43:17.440
Nazis and KKK immediately. Yes, yes, indeed. Um, it is very, you know, it's, um, it's very sad how we've,
00:43:27.700
we've limited ourselves and we can, I have more empathy for it in the, um, black, white area than I
00:43:36.820
have in the male or female area. And this is, I think, one of the, the major problems that, that
00:43:42.460
feminism made. Um, feminism came onto the scene. This second wave of feminism came onto the scene
00:43:49.060
in the early seventies. And we had just passed through two major, um, two major eras, if you will,
00:43:56.140
the era of the civil rights movement in which there were oppressors and oppressed and the era of
00:44:02.840
Marxism being very strong in Marxism divided, divided the world into the oppressors and the
00:44:08.900
oppressed. So when feminism came on board, it was like the, the, it was no longer, um, the oppressors
00:44:17.960
and the, they divvied up men and women into the oppressors and oppressed. And that was the false
00:44:25.220
division. Um, so when, when you talk about black studies, there really was a, an oppressed group,
00:44:33.640
um, that, you know, in the United States that, that had many, that we did not allow to have equal
00:44:40.420
opportunity very clearly. And so when you want to do something for that group, what you should do for
00:44:47.080
that group to empower them is very arguable. But the fact that they were in an oppressed position
00:44:52.440
is in my opinion, less arguable, but with men and women, it wasn't a matter of oppressed, oppressor.
00:44:59.140
It was a matter of men and women, both had it having obligations and responsibilities and strict
00:45:05.060
roles. And, you know, women's role was raise children. Men's role was raise money. Women's role,
00:45:10.680
um, men's role was to risk their lives in war to protect the children that women bore. And so we had,
00:45:16.800
we had all of that happening in which both men's lives were clearly more disposable and every culture
00:45:22.460
that survived, every, every culture that survived, survived based on its ability to train sons to be
00:45:27.540
disposable, disposable in war, disposable in work. And because many of those men who were killed in war,
00:45:33.540
killed in work were also fathers, uh, disposable as fathers as well. And so the, um, so all of this was
00:45:40.320
very, um, so being disposable, in my opinion, is not about being, you know, being an oppressor. Um,
00:45:48.240
it's more, it's closer, more akin to being oppressed. Um, but again, it was not about men being
00:45:53.860
oppressed any more than women. Women had to risk their lives and childbirth. And so what the real
00:45:58.500
issue was is every kinship network or nation figuring out a way or, you know, groups like, um,
00:46:05.460
Jews or Arabs or whatever, figuring out a way that that group of Catholics or whatever, whatever group
00:46:12.060
it was could survive and produce more Catholics and, and, um, and have, and have that religion or
00:46:18.220
that group or that ethnic, ethnicity survive. Now, another controversial one for you. Is it healthy
00:46:24.240
for boys to grow up with two moms and no father? Because a boy already struggles, I think, greatly growing
00:46:29.720
up with a single mom and no father. Yes. We don't have great evidence on the two mom situation.
00:46:36.800
What we do know is that children that do, um, the best have about an equal amount of father and mother.
00:46:45.140
Uh, they have, they have four things happening for them. They're, they're ideally in an intact male,
00:46:51.180
female family. That seems to be the, the group in which the, the way in which children do the best.
00:46:56.500
Um, the, um, the, the second way they do the best is they have to be brought up in a non-intact family
00:47:03.220
that they have about an equal amount of time with father. They have, the four things need to happen,
00:47:07.660
uh, simultaneously. They have to have about an equal amount of time with the mother and the father.
00:47:14.640
Second, the mom and the dad need to live close enough to each other so that the children don't have to give
00:47:20.880
up friends or activities to be involved, to see the other parent. Otherwise, there develops a
00:47:26.820
resentment toward the other parent, usually the non-custodial parent. And the, um, and that
00:47:33.060
resentment leads to, you know, negative things or the, and the child doesn't have a chance to develop,
00:47:39.200
to be involved with a soccer team and really get to be good on the team or, you know, develops a
00:47:44.360
friendship and can't go to that friend's birthday party. And so that's, that type of, um, that's
00:47:51.180
number. So the number two point is the children, the, the parents live to need, need to live close
00:47:56.580
enough to each other, usually within about 20 minutes from each other so that the child can go
00:48:01.380
from one parent to the other without having to miss, um, friends and activities. Uh, number three
00:48:06.800
is that the child is not able to overhear any bad mouthing from mother to father or father to
00:48:12.560
mother. And bad mouthing is a broad term word that I use to also cover negative body language. So
00:48:19.080
rolling, you mentioned your, you mentioned mom to dad and dad rolls his eyes at mom. The child gets
00:48:25.380
this, you know, that dimension of mom, the debt, the child gets the, uh, the, the, the feeling of the
00:48:30.980
understanding that it's not safe to talk to about mom in a positive way to dad or vice versa.
00:48:35.680
And, um, and then the fourth thing that's crucial to children doing well in a, in a non-intact family
00:48:41.880
is the, um, child, is the parents having, being consistently involved in, in, in counseling, um, not
00:48:50.480
just emergency-based counseling, but consistently involved in proactive preventing of problem
00:48:57.460
counseling at each stage of that child's growth and development.
00:49:01.640
Switching gears a little, are you aware of the type of feminism in, in Sweden?
00:49:05.680
I'm only, I've been to Sweden and, um, and certainly heard that it's, um, even if you
00:49:14.440
More of, more of a straight jacket there than it is here.
00:49:16.700
Well, there's lots of female politicians and they're not any better than men. In fact,
00:49:19.960
I'd say they're probably even worse. There's one female politician she's suggesting for men
00:49:28.280
Yeah. And now some Swedish schools have even suggested using genderless pronouns to
00:49:32.320
avoid pushing gender roles. What do you think about that?
00:49:35.720
Well, this would be as, as stupid. I mean, let's, let's take the first one first about
00:49:41.060
the sitting down while peeing. Think of the, think of the situation right now. When a man
00:49:47.160
goes into a men's room, almost all, at least in the United States and most of the world that
00:49:51.880
I've been to, um, there is an every men's room, a urinal. Every time he urinates, he uses
00:49:58.700
urinal, not the, um, not the, you know, the regular sit down toilet. When he goes, when
00:50:04.460
he, when he gets married, if he gets married and has a home, he can be a multimillionaire
00:50:10.000
and have a gorgeous home and there will be not a single urinal in that home.
00:50:16.880
And so can you imagine a maskless movement coming along saying what we should have, you know,
00:50:23.720
women should learn to stand up and pee like men do. And we should have only urinals in homes
00:50:28.740
that, that, that people use for, um, peeing and, um, and, you know, but, and people can use the,
00:50:35.640
the, the, the toilets for other purposes. And so it's sort of like so stupid, you know, like men
00:50:41.300
and women do have differences. Our differences are both physical, they're biological, they're,
00:50:46.800
they're, um, they're neurosciences. Neuroscience can articulate hundreds and hundreds, probably
00:50:53.060
thousands of differences between male and female in the, in the uterus. Um, um, you know, when you
00:50:58.960
become, um, when there's huge amounts of testosterone that go through the, the, uh, the
00:51:05.620
uterus to, to that flood the boy, the person, the, the embryo that's going to become a male
00:51:11.600
and, uh, that, that does not exist with the embryo that's going to become a female. And,
00:51:17.240
you know, a thousand other things, you know, we're, we as guys, when we see a woman who is
00:51:22.480
an hourglass type of figure, uh, we are pulled emotionally and sexually toward her once we,
00:51:29.340
once we enter puberty. And that creates a powerlessness among us, um, to that woman who
00:51:35.580
is young and beautiful. And, um, and so the, so we, we, the question that needs to always
00:51:43.340
be asked is what's functional and what's dysfunctional? Um, you know, men and women should be able to
00:51:49.160
do anything that they wish to do as long as it doesn't hurt other people.
00:51:52.480
Um, we should always be asking the question, not what is male or female, what is feministically,
00:51:57.860
you know, what is politically correct or not, but rather, you know, what is functional, what is,
00:52:02.560
um, and then what is functional, but we should be different for different people.
00:52:06.160
You know, we, we need our firefighters and our soldiers and we need our police officers.
00:52:11.720
And there's a traditional men may decide to be that way. So we should always honor and support
00:52:16.280
that willingness to risk their lives, but to have a boy grow up in a military family and be told the
00:52:21.500
only way that you can become a man is to become a soldier is, is to restrict his freedom to be
00:52:28.060
who he wishes to be. So the good news of feminism is that for women, it really very much expanded
00:52:34.920
women's options and, um, expanded women's psychology. And, and we saw to, you know, if people were to live,
00:52:43.780
grew up in the fifties, like I did. And people say, well, you know, when you get older, Warren,
00:52:50.060
more people, more people going to law school will be women than men, more people going to medical
00:52:54.140
school will be women than men. You know, I would have had a hard time following that, not for,
00:53:00.280
because, because I just would have, couldn't have imagined that. And so what, part of what,
00:53:04.260
what science teaches us is neuroplasticity and the brain of a woman or a man changes as we change
00:53:11.320
roles. When a man begins to father, uh, he's, his testosterone level goes down, his oxygen level
00:53:18.060
goes up, his nurturing skills increase. We are extraordinary complex as beings. We have extra,
00:53:24.660
and the, the, the way we are most, um, most functional is by our extraordinary ability to adapt
00:53:31.420
to changing circumstances. The people that survive the best and the longest are the ones, um, best able
00:53:36.760
to adapt. And so feminism has done a really good job of, of taking that adaptation assumption and
00:53:43.820
working with it. And they've, that turned out to be quite accurate, but it's been, but in the process,
00:53:50.960
it has done two major, um, major things that have been problems. One is it has undermined the family,
00:53:58.780
devalued the family and D and demonized men. And there was no reason to demonize men, except for
00:54:06.420
the fact that feminism got born in a period of history where, when you, when you, um,
00:54:14.420
where you created oppressed and oppressors, you dichotomize. And ironically, that's a highly
00:54:19.540
competitive modality that, that feminist claims to not be interested in is competition.
00:54:25.660
Yeah. You mentioned testosterone and you, you know, now I've spoken to other guests in the past,
00:54:30.880
most men suffer from low testosterone because of all the endocrine disrupting chemicals out there
00:54:36.500
and all the bad ingredients and food and all the other toxic exposure we get. And that actually makes
00:54:43.040
men suffer, makes them irritable, creates all kinds of problems. Have you looked into this?
00:54:48.040
Yes. Um, so this is really important what you're bringing up here and very few people know about this.
00:54:52.520
Um, so in the United States, as we all know, there's a lot of rivers where there's, um,
00:54:57.580
plastics that are, um, dumped, um, near the rivers or, or that go from the factories into the rivers.
00:55:05.460
And you see this especially around places like Lake Apopko and, um, outside of Disneyland where there's
00:55:11.380
millions and millions of, of, um, bottles, plastic bottles that leach into Lake Apopko and,
00:55:18.100
in studies of different rivers, um, at different junctions in the United States, there's, there's
00:55:23.620
studies showing that, that, that the plastics leach phthalates and the, and the phthalates, um, mimic
00:55:31.980
estrogen. And so particularly in areas where there's a high amount of estrogen in the water,
00:55:38.760
um, the, you have an acceleration of what I call the gender puberty gap. And we all know that
00:55:46.040
girls tend to mature more quickly in puberty than, than boys do. But when there is, um,
00:55:53.020
contact with water that has this, that mimics estrogen, uh, almost by definition, the girls
00:55:59.560
reach puberty even more quickly than the boys, than, than they did before. And the boys reach
00:56:04.920
puberty more slowly than before. So the old gender puberty gap in which girls matured more
00:56:10.560
quickly than boys is now accentuate, accentuated in many areas. And that's a real problem.
00:56:16.520
It's especially a real problem when you think about it in relation to sexuality, probably
00:56:20.820
the most vulnerable dimension of growing up, um, in, in your adolescent years is what happens
00:56:28.120
around sexuality and rejection and our self-concept. Uh, well, the least mature, when, when boys are
00:56:35.500
even less mature than in comparison to girls than they have been in the past, then we, um,
00:56:42.660
and, and they're still the one expected to risk sexual rejection when they, when they know barely
00:56:48.800
anything about sex and virtually nothing about girls. And they're, and get there. So there,
00:56:55.620
we're still live in a world where we're told sex is dirty. Uh, you see, if you see a man on TV,
00:57:02.700
your 13 year old and 15 year old daughter and son watching a male masturbate on TV, the chances are
00:57:09.420
most parents are likely to go over and turn that TV off. And so the, the, the message that comes
00:57:14.480
across to kids is that sex is dirty, but we still say to boys, you initiate the dirt. So we're saying
00:57:20.580
sex is dirty. The least mature sex that knows the least about girls and sex should be the one to risk
00:57:28.020
the sexual rejection, um, and initiating something that's dirty. That, what does that produce? That
00:57:32.760
produces shame and that produces self-disgust and, um, and feelings of guilt and feelings that we need
00:57:40.500
to compensate and be more, uh, do things in order to prove ourselves worthy of girls. So we begin to
00:57:46.660
start earning more money, um, to be able to add, afford to ask a girl out and pay for dinner and pay for
00:57:51.980
dates and pay for drinks and pay for, um, you know, um, for ultimately for diamonds, like I was
00:57:56.740
mentioning before. And so all those things lead to a, um, so, so that, that leaching of the lates in
00:58:04.840
our water that exaggerates the old, um, gender puberty gap, particularly in the light of sexuality,
00:58:14.280
creates, um, creates a magnification of problems, um, that have, we've never really faced in humankind.
00:58:21.400
And, and that magnification is increased still further by technology. In the old days, a boy had
00:58:29.040
to deal with asking a girl out. He was expected to ask a girl out. He was expected to screw it up.
00:58:35.440
He was expected to overdo it or underdo it, or, and he paid different prices if he overdid it or
00:58:40.480
underdid it. Um, but today, if he, you know, if he realizes he can't handle that, he turns to,
00:58:46.060
you know, a selection of 250 million free video porn, um, sites that, that helped him to be able
00:58:52.020
to hide in the, uh, hide in the, in the video porn, um, release himself sexually to that and therefore
00:59:00.760
be able to isolate himself further from real life women. A couple more questions for you. Circumcision.
00:59:06.740
I mean, personally, I think it's completely unnatural. And if you're not Jewish,
00:59:10.160
why do it America? But psychologically speaking, do you think a boy is traumatized from circumcision?
00:59:16.220
Most probably. Yes. Um, how much the trauma, how long the trauma lasts and how deep it is.
00:59:22.420
The fact that we really have done very minimal research until recently on to get the answer
00:59:28.020
to that is part of, you know, our ask is part of the deeper, a deeper question, which is that
00:59:33.780
boys were trained for disposability, not for being caring about how, um,
00:59:39.840
here have having us care about the level of their sensitivity. And so clearly what we do now
00:59:45.460
is that when we take off the end of a male penis, that we, that we desensitize that penis in the old
00:59:51.780
days or in many warrior cultures, still a couple, even today, when the culture was truly a warrior
00:59:58.220
culture, a boy didn't get circumcised until he was about 13, 14, 12, 11. And then he got circumcised
01:00:06.540
in front of the entire tribe of males. And he, um, wasn't allowed to use anesthesia. No anesthetic
01:00:14.220
was used on him. And the cutting of his penis was done in front of the other males. And if he even
01:00:20.620
evinced an ouch or a pain or any type of, um, feeling of, of upsetness, he was not allowed to pass on to
01:00:29.600
being a full male. And so, and so the, the point of that is, is that he was, he was learning that
01:00:38.640
the circumcision was used as a rite of passage ritual that helped him, that taught him that
01:00:47.200
anybody that would be respected by his tribe or his culture was going to be somebody who would be
01:00:53.440
able to, when the going got tough, the tough got going and would never admit pain, who would die.
01:00:59.520
So others would live. That's the training that it took to be a male. So that's the history of where
01:01:04.420
it comes from and, and what it's related to and why we, you know, why we do it. Now, I personally
01:01:09.980
think that a male, a circumcised male penis looks nicer, more attractive than an uncircumcised male
01:01:16.140
penis. So, you know, but, but is, is, is, you know, we do a lot of things for looks, you know,
01:01:21.800
women get plastic surgery for looks. Is plastic surgery healthy for women? I don't think so.
01:01:26.720
But they do it anyway. And, and men are doing it increasingly now as well. And so the question
01:01:32.060
has to be, you know, if you do believe that a circumcised penis looks better than a non-circumcised
01:01:37.200
penis, then, then be part, try to be as supportive of a culture, which also does studies to find out
01:01:47.080
how long the trauma of the cutting of a, of a, an infant penis at an early age, how, how deep does
01:01:55.200
it go? How long does it last? What, what are the ramifications of it? And that at least will say
01:02:01.640
that we're beginning to care about what happens inside of men and boys. And so, you know, that's
01:02:08.700
the trade-off that we have to make. And the question, I think the underlying questions we need to ask
01:02:13.240
and to recognize that this is not about a religious thing. It's about a trade-off. It's
01:02:20.480
that the fundamental neglect has been to even care enough to study how, how deep the trauma
01:02:27.900
of the cutting goes. Last question for you. How do you see a healthy relationship dynamic between
01:02:34.360
a man and a woman? I think the single most important thing that the Achilles heel of all human beings
01:02:42.960
is male or female, is our inability to handle personal criticism without becoming defensive.
01:02:50.980
And so part of what I have started focusing on doing is to, and that's really hardwired into the
01:02:59.340
brain, but hardwiring doesn't mean it can't be changed. It's just like you have a hardwired computer.
01:03:05.660
You can develop a workaround to the software of the computer to accomplish something that wasn't
01:03:10.360
accomplished by the original programming. And so what I try to do with couples that I work with
01:03:15.520
is to, um, to, to say, basically, if it's biologically natural to not be able to hear
01:03:23.400
personal criticism and communicate with each other, then we have to create an unnatural way
01:03:29.160
to be able to emotionally associate what our partner needs to say to us that includes criticism
01:03:35.100
and emotionally associate that with love. So, you know, so, but you can't do that unless you meditate
01:03:42.880
yourself into an altered state so that you're ready and centered enough to be able to hear whatever
01:03:49.400
your partner needs to say. And then once you do that, you have to work with certain specific
01:03:55.960
dimensions of that meditation. So you, if you were my sister, let's say, and you always felt that I got
01:04:01.720
more attention than, than, than, uh, you did from dad and mom, uh, that you might, that I might,
01:04:07.660
instead of thinking of while you're talking and saying that that was true, I was starting to think
01:04:12.520
of all the responses that I had and all the ways that you were paid attention to more than by dad
01:04:16.760
and mom. And so, um, but instead I'm taught that, you know, I, I really, my main goal with you,
01:04:23.800
my partner, my partner, let's say, uh, my main goal with you is to be loved by you. And if I can provide
01:04:29.860
a safe environment for you to be able to share your story, your, your, the way you look at the
01:04:36.620
world, um, and that you will feel more loved by me, you will feel safer by me. And if I can do that
01:04:44.080
for you and you feel more loved by me, you'll feel more love for me. So that's the beginning of the
01:04:50.220
process of associating, um, someone else's criticism of a, with an opportunity to be loved.
01:04:56.660
That's, you know, that's the tip of the iceberg. If, if, you know, somebody wants more on that
01:05:00.120
issue or any of the other things that I've mentioned, it's, um, I have a website, warrenferrell.com
01:05:05.500
that, you know, somebody can go to and, you know, see any of the books on any of the issues that I've
01:05:09.380
been talking about, but that's, but, you know, if you, if you have to do anything, you have to focus
01:05:14.500
on anything that I've talked about, it's, you know, if you work on that single issue, whether you're a,
01:05:23.100
if you're a feminist, you'll be able to hear men. If you're Republican, you'll be able to hear
01:05:27.700
Democrats and vice versa, Israeli, Jewish, you know, behind all the problems of our time
01:05:32.820
is practically the, is more than any other single thing is the inability to communicate,
01:05:38.440
hear each other in a loving and compassionate way.
01:05:40.980
Absolutely. Well, thank you. I really appreciate your time today. And if you could one more time,
01:05:44.540
give out your website and any other information you want to give the audience.
01:05:47.300
Sure. warrenferrell.com. And the, the myth of male power that was discussed probably most in this,
01:05:55.640
um, discussion is now just available in a 2014 ebook edition for the first time.
01:06:02.240
And so I probably recommend that over the hardcover edition, um, because it's both up to date and has
01:06:07.420
a lot more access to videos and things like that in it that I was not able to put in my 1991 book.
01:06:14.880
Great, Warren. Thank you. I appreciate your time today.
01:06:19.380
No doubt about it. The most delicate relationship in society is between the male and the female,
01:06:24.560
and the children rely on this relationship to be in balance and harmony. If the children are the
01:06:29.740
future, what kind of example are we setting for them? Both the male and the female are equally as
01:06:34.980
important. There's a saying that says the woman makes the man. And I also know based on my relationship
01:06:39.840
that the man also makes the woman. I personally feel empowered and more free because of the man I am with.
01:06:45.880
Women blaming men for the problems in the world is childish. First off, I wouldn't exist if it
01:06:51.500
weren't for a man. Secondly, my ancestors were also men who fought to protect the females in my line
01:06:57.240
and made possible my life today. Today, I wouldn't be enjoying the comforts of the Western world if it
01:07:02.560
weren't for men's ingenuity. And ladies, we inspire men to reach these great heights. Don't you know that
01:07:07.660
by now? I think feminists have greatly exaggerated with the help of Hollywood the mistreatment of
01:07:12.900
women in the past and in the present, as if all men have always been barbarians and a healthy female
01:07:18.520
male relationship never existed in the past. These are Marxist lies used to divide the sexes and disrupt
01:07:24.880
the family unit, which is a primordial tradition based on the natural order of nature. I really do feel
01:07:31.100
that before the religions of Abraham and before the religion of liberalism, the male-female dynamic
01:07:36.840
was more in tune with nature and folk traditions that were based on thousands of years of a sacred
01:07:42.180
natural order. Therefore, the sexes were healthier and happier. I will never be able to lift 200 pounds
01:07:48.000
and I'm okay with that. My brain might not be wired to set up recording gear and I'm okay with that too.
01:07:53.220
Men and women are unequal in many ways, but when we come together, it equals a whole that is equally
01:07:59.460
as important. Cheesy, I know. Stay tuned for much more coming up. Remember, you can sign up for a Red
01:08:04.980
Ice membership at RedIceMembers.com, which we greatly appreciate. Radio314.com and RedIceCreations.com
01:08:12.500
are the websites where you'll find more. We'll talk soon.