Greg Johnson is the editor-in-chief of Countercurrents Publishing and its journal and webzine, North American New Right. He is the author of Confessions of a Reluctant Hater and New Right vs. Old Right, which we ll spend the hour focusing on. Greg shares his vision of European ethno-metopolitics and distinguishes it from fascism and national socialism.
00:19:55.320They have all kinds of trivial options to choose from in toothpaste, in politics, and so forth.
00:20:02.300And it just so happens that the left and at the core of the left, really, is the organized Jewish community.
00:20:10.180When I talk about left-wing domination, I really am talking about Jewish domination, Jewish hegemony.
00:20:16.400They're the key, the core to the left, and they always have been.
00:20:21.780What we have in America today is we have a range of political options, but every one of those political options is carefully vetted so that it's safe for Jews and it's conducive to Jewish interests.
00:20:37.720Now, I don't see any reason to change that system, the basic system of having lots of choices.
00:20:43.320I just want to make sure that once the new right attains power, that all the political choices that people have available to them are safe for whites, right?
00:20:57.220White genocide, white extinction, white degradation is going to be off the table and no longer an option for anybody up and down the political spectrum.
00:21:07.380You simply can't choose that, just like you simply can't choose anything that endangers Jewish interests today.
00:21:14.060I think that whites in white countries should be as sacrosanct as Jews are today.
00:21:31.960But behind the scenes, basically, there would be a consensus that would vet every political candidate that would be working to create a culture that would be conducive to white interests.
00:21:48.020Whites would still be arguing about abortion and taxes and feminism and so forth, but it would just be an argument within the family, basically, right?
00:21:58.460We would have family differences and there would be no option of bringing in outsiders as allies to try to gain advantages over members of one's own extended family.
00:22:11.400So that's the end game as I conceive of it.
00:22:14.600Not such a scary prospect because liberals today live under that system.
00:22:19.960It's just that it's a system that is rigged to destroy them and their values and all the rest of us.
00:22:26.380I just want to get rid of that rigging, so to speak.
00:22:30.380I want to get rid of the anti-white bias and the pro-Jewish bias and switch the system around so it preserves and enhances our interests.
00:22:39.660Yeah, you talk about why you think it's important for white nationalists to adopt an elitist strategy.
00:22:44.220And you also talk about directing the message to the educated, the professional classes and above to mold the masses.
00:25:23.620The best sort of situation for a people is to have an elite that is organically connected to them and that looks out for their interests.
00:25:32.480I wrote a piece for Countercurrents called Notes on Populism, Elitism, and Democracy.
00:25:38.260It's actually in the New Wright versus Old Wright book.
00:25:40.520And what I make clear in there is that I'm a populist in the sense that I believe that the only legitimate political system looks out for the interests of all the people.
00:25:51.980OK, however, I also argue that the political system that best looks out for the interests of all people is going to be one where the leadership is on average better than the masses.
00:26:05.940And most people understand that instinctively.
00:26:09.060We want our leaders to be better than us on average, just as we want our doctors to know more about medicine than we do and our dentists to know more about teeth than we do.
00:26:21.000And the guy who sets up our new TV to know more about TV than we do, right?
00:26:27.280We recognize that expertise gives authority and we want that in politics as in every other area of life.
00:26:36.020Yet at the same time, we want these experts to be responsive to the interests of the whole.
00:26:43.560I think we have to be populist in the sense that we look out for the interests of everybody, elitist in the sense that we recognize that the best way to do that is to have people who are on average smarter and more public-spirited in positions of authority.
00:27:01.240Now, to get that, what we need to do in the present day is we need to create that elite.
00:27:11.680There's nobody looking out for the interests of white people.
00:27:14.960The people who run our societies are looking out for the interests of Jews.
00:27:19.520They're looking out for the interests of themselves.
00:27:21.840They're looking out for the interests of the rich, basically.
00:27:25.960Nobody's looking out for the interests of whites.
00:27:28.160If we're going to have a society where white interests are sacrosanct, we're going to have to have a leadership caste that looks out for white interests.
00:27:37.500And the only way to get that is to start appealing to people today who are better than average in terms of intelligence, morality, public spiritedness, taste, and so forth, and try to create that leadership cast that we're going to need down the road.
00:27:56.040So my approach is basically to search all existing social classes, all existing white constituencies. I'm spreading a very broad net. I want to find the best white people for the cause.
00:28:12.940And I want to persuade the best white people of my vision of things and to get them writing, thinking, organizing, and becoming that organically connected elite that will provide the leadership cast for our race.
00:28:29.220Because eventually we're going to have to take control politically of our own destiny again. And to do that, we have to have the leadership to do that.
00:28:38.320So that's my goal. And that's why I have an elitist focus. And by an elitist focus, I do not mean that I'm just appealing to the educated.
00:28:48.740I'm trying to appeal to the best people in all political classes, in all social classes, in all levels of education.
00:28:55.900There are lots of really bright people who've never been to college. And in fact, some of the brightest people I know are largely self-educated.
00:29:02.820So I'm not a snob in the social class sense of the term, although I do recognize that people with better educations and more money do have more power in society.
00:29:13.540But I am a snob in the sense that I want to find the best people, no matter where they are in the current social system.
00:29:21.380And I want to bring them into my vision of things because I do think we need a leadership cast that will actually take the interests of our race into account.
00:29:31.120Now, you also write about the need to focus on metapolitics and you compare it to occult warfare.
00:29:36.820And the points you talk about is one, propaganda, two, community organizing. Can you talk about this?
00:29:42.920Yeah. Metapolitics is just a term that refers to the things that have to be established for there to be political change.
00:29:51.780And basically what I do is I break metapolitics down into two categories.
00:29:56.960One is the battle of ideas, propaganda, basically, and two, community organizing.
00:30:04.960There are certain ideas that need to be established in people's minds if we're going to live in a white nationalist society.
00:30:13.480We have to get people concerned with the danger to our race.
00:30:19.380We have to awaken people to the fact that there are bigger problems than abortion and school prayer and going on in the Middle East.
00:30:36.520And we need to be as worried about white extinction as some people are worried about Bengal tigers and snail darters and rare frogs that are going extinct as well.
00:30:50.140And when the white race goes extinct, all those other species are going to go extinct too because we're the only ones who really care about preserving them.
00:30:57.340So we need to awaken people to the danger.
00:31:00.620We need to awaken people to their identity.
00:31:04.140We need to get white people to think of themselves as white people and to think of themselves as white people unapologetically.
00:31:12.180So there's a moral element to this too.
00:31:14.660We have to teach people that it's not only normal to belong to a group, but it's also right to take your group's side in conflicts.
00:31:25.940White people have had that notion bred out of them, and we need to start taking our own side because we do live in a world of ethnic conflicts.
00:31:34.400And we also need to have ideas about what's feasible.
00:31:38.900Nobody is going to accept the idea of the white ethno-state if they think that it's simply impossible to create.
00:31:47.580And so we have to convince people that it is possible.
00:31:50.880So these are metapolitical ideas that need to be argued out and established, and they need to be propagated to all white groups.
00:32:01.280And we need to have ways of propagating these things and making them appealing to every white constituency, every white age group, every white ethnic group, every white nation, and so forth.
00:33:02.280I'm just talking about real-world networks, families, extended families, tribes, mutual aid networks, existing businesses, and things like that, where we have our people.
00:33:14.100We have to think in terms of taking it off the Internet and geographically localizing things and building real communities.
00:33:25.440So that's the second part of metapolitics.
00:33:28.040My focus is on those two things, mostly on the battle of ideas because I'm just one guy out here on the Internet, right?
00:33:38.480However, one of the things that I do try and do in the community organizing field is to bring together people that I know of who are in the same area but who might not know one another and get them to meet one another and try and foster face-to-face interactions amongst our readers.
00:34:20.240And so I put these people in touch, and suddenly two very lonely dissidents have somebody that they can meet for coffee.
00:34:29.460It's a small beginning, but the longest journey begins with a single step, right?
00:34:34.240So another thing that I do to this end is I go around and make occasional talks and meet people in the real world.
00:34:42.560I used to have these dinners and things like that.
00:34:44.740And at these dinners, I discovered that there were a couple of people in the same town who came to my dinner, but they didn't know each other in the real world.
00:34:54.720So I made sure that everybody in the room raised their hands and said what town they're from.
00:34:59.120And I said, hey, you two are from Petaluma.
00:35:02.000You better get together after the talk and exchange cards.
00:35:14.220So those are two areas that I'm focused on.
00:35:19.000And I'm hoping that if the metapolitical foundations are strong, right, then somebody's going to come along with the right combination of political skills and charisma at the right time politically.
00:35:34.780And suddenly it's going to be possible for there to be a really effective political movement that will just gel.
00:35:41.980But until those metapolitical foundations are in place, there's going to be a lot of headwind against it.
00:35:47.720It's going to be very thin and astroturfy.
00:35:50.600There's going to be no grassroots basis for it because there's no real grassroots white community, conscious white community, right?
00:37:07.180And so my view is that it's closer to the truth to say that whites are being murdered and that the people who are putting in place the trends that are leading to white dispossession and white extinction are disproportionately Jewish and that Jews are not only disproportionately responsible for setting up this system.
00:37:29.240They are the main impediment to changing it.
00:37:32.420And I think that's an important distinction.
00:37:37.180Sidetracked, basically, arguing about what percentage of our problems are caused by Jews as opposed to Christianity or capitalism or whatever.
00:37:51.020And it's an argument about whether we're doing it to ourselves or whether it's being done to us.
00:38:11.640And when you talk about changing the future, when you talk about changing the existing trends that are destroying our race, ask yourself, who's standing in the way?
00:38:22.020It's the organized Jewish community there, the lynchpin of resistance to every sensible policy to limit white extinction, basically, white dispossession.
00:38:34.400And so when you start thinking politically and you start looking at who lines up against us, it's the Jews.
00:38:53.760So the Jews are the core of this minority disgruntled coalition, of course, which basically is the majority of humanity when you start incorporating all non-whites into it.
00:39:05.960But within white societies, they organize non-white minorities, they organize gays and lesbians, they organize environmentalists, anybody on the left.
00:39:17.480They try and organize and make part of their coalition in order to project power.
00:39:22.340Yet at the same time, when you look at which policies dominate, it's the Jewish agenda of white race replacement that always dominates.
00:39:34.140So, for instance, feminists, they always fall silent when anybody brings up the problem of rape.
00:39:43.820Because, you know, when you look at rape in Scandinavia, it's not Scandinavian men who are raping women levels that you find in a war zone.
00:39:55.080And yet, where are the feminists opposing this?
00:39:58.620There are no candlelight marches against Islamization.
00:40:01.300They're silent because the feminist agenda is always trumped by the Jewish anti-white race replacement agenda.
00:40:09.980And we need to break up the coalition of the left by making clear that these non-Jewish groups on the left that are part of the leftist coalition will never get their way whenever their values conflict with white race replacement.
00:40:34.960All of these groups, they routinely get steamrolled whenever there's a chance to bring in more diversity.
00:40:42.980Well, on that note, is Judaic Christianity compatible with white nationalism?
00:40:47.320Well, when you put the Judeo in there, it sort of prejudices me.
00:40:53.460Yeah, because there's a lot of, I know there's a lot of nationalists, you know, the Christian versus pagan argument.
00:40:58.800Yeah, I think that's an important discussion to have.
00:41:01.760I think that the value system of Christianity is incompatible with white nationalism.
00:41:09.880I think that if you look at the suicidal values, if you will, that a lot of whites do have programmed into them, they are justified in terms of Christian doctrine, Christian attitudes.
00:41:23.360And, you know, we'd be better off weaning these people away from these attitudes.
00:41:29.280When you start talking about the necessity of taking our own side in ethnic conflicts, the first thing a lot of people will say is, well, I mean, that goes against my Christian values, turning the other cheek and things like that.
00:41:52.360I've never been a Christian in the sense that I believe in the Christian value system.
00:41:59.440And I think that it's a weakness in our race.
00:42:03.160It's one of the weaknesses that has allowed Jews so much power over us.
00:42:06.820Because, of course, if you believe the New Testament, then the Jews have a particularly important place in the history of mankind and in the salvation history of mankind.
00:42:17.440And that has given them a great deal of power over us, for one thing.
00:42:22.360So my tendency is to think that Christianity is one of the weaknesses in our society.
00:42:28.000And I think that as Western man, as whites become less influenced by Christianity, I think that maybe that is going to open up the possibility of being less, how to put it, sheep-like and weak in the face of our impending genocide, basically.
00:42:59.540Yeah, the perils of positive thinking.
00:43:02.180I wrote that because, and the perils of positive thinking piece sort of relates to the blame ourselves meme that goes around, too.
00:43:11.420I definitely think that people who want to keep it all positive and people who want to not go populist and not talk about reasons for white people to feel resentment and anger are on the wrong track.
00:43:29.560Because our race is being destroyed, we have every reason to be righteously resentful and angry about that.
00:43:37.800And the people who say, keep it positive, I think they're, well, they're sort of delusional.
00:44:40.120I mean, I think the basic ideas are there.
00:44:44.260I don't think that we need to worry too much about what legal system we'll have and will there be two houses of parliament or one or anything like that.
00:44:56.520All of that stuff has been done, basically.
00:45:00.620Whites have come up with brilliant systems of government for thousands of years.
00:45:44.320But we're at the just beginning stages of getting people to realize the necessity of reorienting politics away from center left, center right stuff that we're bickering about, which doesn't really matter, towards preserving our race.
00:46:01.420Once people get their minds wrapped around the danger and the necessity of moving towards a white republic, politics will take care of itself.
00:46:09.840But we're just at the beginning of that journey.
00:46:12.700Now, what can you say to willing, intelligent folks who they're passionate about this cause but don't know what they can do?
00:46:18.880It depends on where they are in their lives, what they have going for them, if they're just starting out, if they're well-established, if they have a lot of independence or if they're very dependent on others for their livelihood.
00:46:33.480So there are a lot of different options.
00:46:35.660I guess the first thing I would say to anybody is to just get educated about these things and get passionate about it.
00:46:43.160Second is to take stock of your life and determine what you can do, what you're willing to give up, what you're willing to spend, and therefore what you can do within those parameters.
00:46:54.660I think it's very important for you to meet other people in your area who share these views.
00:46:59.400But you've got to be really careful because, you know, some of the best people I know are white nationalists and some of the worst people I've ever encountered are white nationalists.
00:47:08.360You've got to be a little careful about who you meet.
00:47:11.620You know, don't invite people to your house that you've never met before.
00:47:18.300People on the left are very careful about that.
00:47:20.680They're involved in left-wing organizing and stuff like that.
00:47:23.920They always pick neutral places to meet people.
00:47:28.020They don't invite somebody they've never met to their house.
00:47:30.920So we need to be smart about things like that.
00:47:33.460So get educated and start making connections with like-minded people in your area.
00:47:39.420Those are the first things that you can do.
00:47:42.520After that, the direction you go sort of depends on where you are in your life, what your resources are, etc.
00:47:48.420If you're retired, if you're quite comfortable, you might consider becoming a more open advocate.
00:47:54.720If you're just a college student starting out in life, you don't want to go through life with a big cloud of controversy over your head.
00:48:01.740You might want to think about being a secret agent rather than a standard-bearer, a public standard-bearer.
00:48:08.540The point that I try and make in New Right vs. Old Right and my other writings is that, again, we have to be willing to accept a whole range of different white options, right?
00:48:22.440And we have to allow every white person who's racially conscious to determine his or her own level of explicitness and involvement.
00:48:31.540And we're not going to be chewing them out and saying, you coward.
00:48:37.220I don't know why certain people make the decisions they make, right?
00:48:42.340And I'm not going to question their decisions.
00:48:44.820I will try and persuade everybody to expand their comfort zone, right, to do more.
00:48:51.900I'm constantly trying to persuade people to do more.
00:48:54.840But I respect people who need to keep it on the down low, so to speak, who want to be secret agents.
00:49:01.240We need people like that because if every person who believes what we believe suddenly decided on national coming out as a white nationalist day to out themselves,
00:49:12.860well, the system would have them in its beams and a lot of these people would be scarred and jobless and friendless and be harmed by it.
00:49:23.700And that would only make the system stronger and the movement weaker.
00:49:58.620And he said one of the most important things for any activist to think about is, first of all, you've got to sell yourself as a person before you can sell your message, your program.
00:50:13.120And I think that's a very important thing for people to contemplate.
00:50:17.400Because if you're living in a community and you're not very well known in that community and suddenly you become an explicit white nationalist, well, you know, you're going to be the local crank.
00:50:28.020Because a lot of people are not going to know who you are and they're only going to know you as somebody who has aberrant, radical political views.
00:50:36.800That's probably not a good way of going about it.
00:50:40.340You're not going to do much for the cause and you're not going to do much for yourself.
00:50:44.100You're going to find that you're eventually going to get kind of alienated and burned out.
00:50:49.480We want people to stick with this in the long haul.
00:50:53.600So what do you do if you want to become the local white nationalist guy?
00:50:58.700Well, first of all, it's important for people to know who you are without the politics, right?
00:51:04.660It's important for you to be a good dad and a good little league coach and a member of various community groups and some guy who's involved with the art show.
00:51:17.960Just anything that makes you a public known figure and sells you as an individual.
00:51:23.880If you are a well-established member of the community, people like you for who you are.
00:51:28.860People know that you're responsible and public-spirited and altruistic and trustworthy.
00:51:34.860And then it comes out that you have some kind of aberrant political views.
00:51:40.760And in fact, by being a stand-up guy and a member of the community, it's actually going to advertise positively those views.
00:51:49.040And so one of the things I'm going to say to everybody who wants to be involved with this thing is to make yourself as good a person as possible as an individual and as a member of the community.
00:52:00.060Be as well-liked and likable and deserving of being liked as possible.
00:53:02.140And isn't it always better to be cool anyway?
00:53:04.900Jonathan Bowden talks about that, too.
00:53:09.680Part of the appeal of our ideas is that they are a little out there.
00:53:14.840What you ideally want is you want our advocates to be people who are intelligible and respectable and well-established in their communities, but they got something a little dangerous and odd about them.
00:53:29.700Because that's also very appealing, right?
00:53:32.920You don't want to be totally out there.
00:53:35.260You don't want to be some guy with long, stringy hair and a sandwich board standing in the park baying about the end of the race or something like that.
00:53:46.560But, you know, if you're totally indistinguishable from any other milquetoast Rotarian, that's not a good thing either.
00:53:53.260So what you've got to be is you've got to be the well-respected local guy who's a little touched and a little different, a little demonic.
00:54:03.240You've got to have something, a quality of idealism, a visionary quality that sets you apart.
00:54:09.420And so I think that's a hard thing to get.
00:54:12.100You've got to be a little cooler than the rest of people, a little more dangerous than the rest of people, but you can't be totally out there.
00:54:19.720And I think most people who are nationalists, that would be a good balance, right?
00:54:24.880It would be a good balance to be well-respected, securely employed, member of your community, but also be somebody that people look to as like, wow, this guy is not just together, but he's a little further out there than the rest of us.
00:54:41.000And he has a vision that suddenly doesn't seem totally aberrant and crazy and evil, but something that you want to hear about.
00:54:49.620You're the well-known local white nationalist, but you're kind of untouchable because you've sold yourself and established yourself.
00:55:16.540I think the trend that I've seen since I've gotten involved with this, I've been really involved with this for 14 years now.
00:55:23.920The trend has been every year, it seems like the average age of people involved is younger.
00:55:29.980The average education level is a little higher.
00:55:33.880The sex ratio thing is a little more balanced every year.
00:55:38.600When I got started, I was like the youngest person involved and it was a room of gray-headed men.
00:55:43.720Okay, now it's a room with 30% women or 40% women in some groups and the average age of people is under 40.
00:55:55.800That's a huge change and I think that's a change that really makes us, makes me hopeful because you need to be able to look and see the future of our cause.
00:56:07.220When the cause is over 60, it doesn't have much future, but younger people have more future.
00:56:12.500And so when I see younger people who are really together involved in this, it's just encouraging.
00:56:17.540It's a concrete proof that our race has a little bit more of a future than it did just a few years ago.
00:56:24.140One of the things I like to say is that we do represent the interests, we strive to represent the interests of all white people.
00:56:31.460But at the same time, we also have to bear in mind, back of our mind maybe, that whites as a race do not have a future right now.
00:56:42.940We might be becoming the whites who have a future.
00:56:46.800And that's what I see when I go to these gatherings now.
00:56:49.240When I went to the London Forum meeting back in September, it was a very impressive group of people and I really felt these are white people with a future.
00:56:57.220It might not be the whole race right now, but there is a group of whites who are forming now that do have a future and that's very encouraging.
00:57:06.480Well, as we end the hour, please share any closing remarks for us and give us your website and book details.
00:57:11.760Okay, well, I've written two books now.
00:57:14.200One is called Confessions of a Reluctant Hater and the other is New Right vs. Old Right.
00:57:20.120And both of those are available from CounterCurrents Publishing.