Assassination Insurance
Episode Stats
Length
1 hour and 15 minutes
Words per Minute
136.04475
Summary
Reactionary Tree joins me to discuss Trump's VP pick, Mike Pence, and why he might not be a good choice. Also, we talk about why I think Mike Pence is not a good VP pick and why I don't think he should have been chosen.
Transcript
00:00:00.000
Okay. Reactionary Tree, thank you for being on this emergency podcast. I appreciate it. I've been meaning to have you on for a couple of months now, but it's unfortunate you have to be under such frustrating circumstances as Mike Pence, but welcome.
00:00:19.000
Well, thank you. When the future king of the white race calls, you answer, so here I am.
00:00:25.280
That's a good answer, Tree. We joked about this. I said it's going to be kind of weird calling you Tree, but we're getting in touch with our Native American heritage. Like, yes, great tree.
00:00:42.200
Getting it, we're, you know, harkening back to paganism, getting around, tree hugging, worshiping Odin. We're going to get into it.
00:00:52.220
That's what we're into. But why do you think Trump did this? And I guess that's a loaded question because I obviously think this was a very strange move and a very boring move, a very un-Trumpian move at the same time.
00:01:09.640
But what do you think his rationale was? What is the strategy for doing this?
00:01:16.240
Well, there's one of two things, and they both probably go together, is since Paul Manafort has taken over his campaign, it's kind of to water down some of Trump's kind of anti-establishment, I guess you could call it radicalism.
00:01:37.400
Even though he's actually quite moderate on all issues, he's just an anti-establishment guy.
00:01:43.920
The other thing is that it's meant to appease the Republican establishment.
00:01:51.160
I think it's both. I think you're both right on that.
00:01:54.560
I've heard a lot of strategery on Twitter about winning over the Midwest and things like that.
00:02:03.140
I'm not sure Pence could do that. I'm not sure any VP pick can really do that.
00:02:09.400
I've actually read some articles that are very skeptical of how much a VP pick really matters.
00:02:16.740
But yeah, I think we should take Trump at his word.
00:02:20.740
In his address, which he gave today, which I actually just listened to before coming on the podcast, he explicitly said he goes,
00:02:34.600
But I guess I just find this such a strange strategy.
00:02:38.740
Because Trump, from the beginning of his campaign up to now, one of the reasons why I admire him,
00:02:48.740
despite whatever criticism I might have, and in criticism of the whole system in general,
00:02:54.000
what I admire him, he is willing to do things that just demonstrate that he has balls,
00:03:01.920
that he doesn't give a fuck, that he is just going to go for it, and double down on Trumpness.
00:03:11.220
So when he was in South Carolina, if I were his campaign manager, I would have told him,
00:03:16.940
don't talk about the war in Iraq, don't talk about the 2000s, because that stuff was actually popular here.
00:03:24.660
But no, Trump, in the debate in South Carolina before the primary, he went on this impassioned anti-Bush family
00:03:38.560
I mean, I agree with everything he said, and he was clearly emotional about it.
00:03:45.760
But the fact is, I think people, even South Carolinians who might have been pro-war, pro-Bush,
00:03:50.940
just admired the guy, that he's this ballsy and this genuine.
00:03:56.920
And he was just, he was doubling down on being, separating himself from the field,
00:04:01.660
being the badass in the field, and all this stuff.
00:04:05.980
He would double down, like when, with the whole wall thing,
00:04:09.220
when he got pushed back from the Mexican, or Vincente Fox, the former Mexican president,
00:04:13.960
he said, all right, the wall's going to be 10 feet taller.
00:04:17.740
The Mike Pence thing seems to be this, just the reverse.
00:04:23.100
And what I don't understand is that Trump has miraculously defeated all of these forces.
00:04:30.720
The GOP establishment obviously does not like him.
00:04:36.600
They are not willing to disrupt the convention,
00:04:40.840
or disrupt the whole structure and process that they have in order to stop him.
00:04:54.580
The religious right leadership, at least, or at least most of the religious right leadership,
00:05:00.180
Jerry Falwell Jr. and one of these Dallas guys, notwithstanding.
00:05:06.160
Just the mainstream Republicans do not like him.
00:05:09.840
There is actually reason to believe that Mike Pence does not like him.
00:05:13.220
A man named Dan Sr. tweeted just when this happened,
00:05:18.700
I can't believe someone would work with Trump who expressed privately the fact that he found Trump unacceptable.
00:05:30.020
And then now, after he beats them, after he demonstrates that they're not relevant,
00:05:35.120
after he's now entering the general election, where you don't need them as much,
00:05:39.820
where you've got to reach new people, you don't have to reach conservative movement ideologues,
00:05:53.040
I, I, the, the, I, I, I've, I've been thinking about this for about 24 hours,
00:05:57.840
and I, I do think that what you said, the, the, the Paul Manafort idea that he is coming in,
00:06:04.080
he clearly has the backing of the Trump family.
00:06:06.440
He clear, as someone who has a lot, a lot of experience, clearly Trump, trust him.
00:06:11.100
And Paul Manafort is, you know, just watering him down and weakening him.
00:06:20.320
I've just, these past couple of weeks, I've actually been reading the art of the deal.
00:06:26.320
He was, one of his deals that he did in, near Lincoln Center,
00:06:32.720
there was a, another developer whose name I'm forgetting.
00:06:35.860
And Trump actually says, I really liked that guy.
00:06:41.180
But he was doing something called Lincoln Center West, I believe.
00:06:45.180
And he, he'd never, he didn't promote it correctly.
00:06:53.300
And he, he ultimately got in over his head and couldn't handle the financing and had to sell to
00:06:59.200
Trump went in and the first thing he's, he called it television city.
00:07:02.960
It was going to be this new city on the Upper West Side.
00:07:05.420
It was going to have literally the tallest building in the world.
00:07:09.160
You know, I mean, this, you know, and this, this never was realized, of course,
00:07:13.980
but it's just an expression of his boldness, his willingness to shake things up, to go against
00:07:19.700
the grain, to, to go totally out of left field.
00:07:23.260
Sometimes like I, I was, I was, part of me was expecting that he was going to do something
00:07:29.020
Like he was going to pick someone that we'd never heard of.
00:07:31.640
He, he was going to pick a non-political person maybe, or maybe a Democrat or I, you know,
00:07:37.660
I, I was really thinking that he was going to do something fascinating.
00:07:40.260
And instead he surprised us with the most boring man I could imagine.
00:07:49.620
It doesn't make any sense, you know, and you're right.
00:07:52.220
He, uh, Donald Trump is this anti-establishment wrecking ball and he just literally destroyed
00:08:03.460
And then now he's the guy and he's just bringing them back in to the woodwork.
00:08:12.740
What he should have done obviously is, yeah, done something that, uh, is more fitting to
00:08:17.820
his character and roll with some type of out of left field, uh, pick or just, um, double
00:08:26.640
down on someone who agrees with you on one or two of your issues very strongly.
00:08:32.500
Like, you know, Senator Jeff Sessions would have been a great compliment because Jeff Sessions
00:08:42.440
He, uh, probably played a very strong role in developing Donald Trump's immigration plan.
00:08:52.900
It would really say that this is what this, this campaign is about.
00:09:00.360
It's about globalism and that we're not going to stand for it.
00:09:04.860
Instead, he picks the most basic bitch conservative he can find that exists.
00:09:12.420
I mean, if you're looking for your average milquetoast conservative and that's going to
00:09:19.440
be your presidential campaign, then yeah, Mike Pence makes a lot of sense.
00:09:23.040
But for Donald Trump, it doesn't make any sense at all.
00:09:27.660
And Donald Trump, Donald Trump used to talk about, we're going to, we're going to have
00:09:33.240
It's, we're not going to assume that all these, uh, red states, or we're not going to assume
00:09:38.040
that all these blue states are going to be blue states.
00:09:42.880
Granted, maybe that's aspirational, delusional.
00:09:49.140
But maybe it's not, you know, like Massachusetts went so intensely for Trump that clearly there
00:09:58.040
We always associate Massachusetts with Elizabeth Warren, but there are tons of people outside
00:10:03.960
of Boston and maybe some, maybe many in Boston, uh, who are, who are totally good for Trump.
00:10:12.340
I think, you know, we, we've actually had pretty conventional, uh, Republicans, uh, try
00:10:18.900
to do this red state strategy that we, that we've been doing really since 2000.
00:10:25.020
And, uh, and you know, they're more or less the same swing states, small changes, but generally
00:10:35.740
Uh, you know, I, I mean, didn't Romney prove that?
00:10:40.360
Uh, it's just, you, you, I think if the, if the GOP is going to, is going to be a party,
00:10:47.660
And, you know, the GOP keeps getting whiter more and more every year, more, it keeps getting
00:10:54.720
It's like a percentage and a half are going towards the Republican party because basically
00:10:59.160
the Democratic party is the party of minorities and crazy liberals and so on.
00:11:03.280
And the Republican party is, is not so much the conservative party.
00:11:09.840
It's the people who are offended by black lives matter and, and so on.
00:11:14.980
And, you know, so there are tons of people that do not resonate with religious right kind
00:11:21.620
of stuff, uh, which is what Mike Pence always plays footsie with.
00:11:27.920
If there is something there, I'm not sure there is.
00:11:31.920
Uh, but you know, why not, why not become this nationalist candidate where it's like,
00:11:37.100
we're going to bring back the draw jobs with, with strong, uh, some tariff barriers.
00:11:42.820
Uh, we're going to not go into these crazy middle Eastern wars.
00:11:47.120
We're going to start protecting the environment because, you know, he, Trump talked about that.
00:11:51.060
He, he started something that Republicans never talk about.
00:11:56.060
I'm going to, I'm going to fix the infrastructure.
00:11:58.480
Uh, why doesn't he talk about like, let's protect the environment.
00:12:01.060
That is a, that's just a total win issue, particularly with these normal middle of the
00:12:06.720
range white people, uh, who are our people where our movement shouldn't just be about,
00:12:14.760
And yet he, he does this where it's like, I don't, I don't think he is decisively lost
00:12:21.480
these middle of the road people, but he, but I don't think we should also underestimate
00:12:28.760
Uh, yeah, when you look at the, uh, for example, if you're looking at the election map, your swing
00:12:35.980
states are going to, the big swing states that you're going to need to win.
00:12:40.680
If you're a Republican, you're going to need Ohio, you're going to need Florida, you're going
00:12:46.360
to need Virginia, you're going to need states like Pennsylvania and Michigan.
00:12:50.580
And, you know, sure in the more, uh, rural parts of those, uh, states, you're going to
00:12:59.260
have, uh, your evangelical, strong Christian conservative types, but you're right.
00:13:05.400
Your average white American is fairly moderate on religious issues.
00:13:11.380
And they're really not feeling like the whole, uh, Christian conservative right when like
00:13:19.760
the snake handlers and all these kind of nutty people out there that doesn't resonate with
00:13:26.820
And Trump's nationalist message of, you know, of populism to a degree and resisting, um, third
00:13:36.300
rural immigration, and also having a foreign policy that's sensible.
00:13:42.120
People don't want to get involved in the Middle East anymore.
00:13:48.960
And when you look at someone like Mike Pence, he is the neocon.
00:14:00.720
He supported the surge in Iraq and he has supported intervention in Libya.
00:14:05.320
Most, even your average, uh, conservative nowadays who probably supported the war, everyone has
00:14:12.540
gone sour on this, this militarism over in the Middle East.
00:14:18.200
And so that's another reason why this pick doesn't make any sense.
00:14:24.180
People are more concerned at what's going on here at home than they are overseas.
00:14:28.880
And people are more concerned about, will I be able to put food on my family's table?
00:14:39.900
Is there going to be a future here in this country for my, my grandchildren?
00:14:53.700
And I, I would, I would add to it, uh, I don't really know who Pence is.
00:14:58.660
I mean, I, I was actually forcing myself to watch some videos on, on YouTube of him responding
00:15:04.920
And he's just so colossally boring that I, I don't know if there's any there, there.
00:15:09.380
I mean, he is, he is one of the least compelling people.
00:15:12.240
Uh, but yeah, as you were saying, and, and, and lots of people have, uh, have mentioned
00:15:16.980
this on Twitter, so I should, I should give them credit, but like Hillary Clinton can run,
00:15:22.580
literally run ads where he, she, she, she can quite legitimately say, oh, really Trump?
00:15:30.300
Like you want, you want a better foreign policy?
00:15:34.860
You want a, uh, Fortress America, you know, uh, tariff barriers and so on.
00:15:40.840
Cause he, he, he, he supports, he goes along with Clinton and this whole kind of neocon
00:15:46.000
neoliberal, you know, mishmash on all of those issues.
00:15:50.160
So it just, it just undermines everything he did.
00:15:54.840
Also just to go, uh, to push a little harder on, on Pence himself in terms of the gay wedding
00:16:02.340
Um, I had never heard of Mike Pence until about a year and a half ago, uh, when Indiana became
00:16:11.320
And this was over an Indiana law that basically, uh, there was, you know, usually goes under
00:16:16.620
the rubric of religious freedom and allows people to, uh, not patron.
00:16:23.020
If you, a business owner allows you to do something like not make a gay wedding cake,
00:16:27.140
not provide pizza for a hypothetical gay pizza wedding.
00:16:31.820
And, you know, I don't, I don't even, I, I have a difficult time talking about this because
00:16:38.520
I don't, I don't want to say that I oppose such a law because I am in complete support
00:16:46.460
Um, I think that anyone has the right to deal with anyone and, or not deal with anyone for
00:16:56.560
Uh, I have the right to not go to this restaurant because I don't like their food.
00:17:01.540
I have the right not to go buy something at the store because I, I, I, uh, know the guy
00:17:07.520
who owns it and I didn't like him in high school.
00:17:09.440
And what I mean by that, I, I can go, I can not patron someone's business for any reason,
00:17:13.680
no matter whether it's rational, irrational, stupid, or intelligent.
00:17:20.340
I don't, a business that is your private, uh, property.
00:17:24.920
You don't have to do, you don't have to serve everyone.
00:17:28.600
If I'm, if I make cakes and someone says, make me a giant dildo cake for my horrifying
00:17:36.300
gay wedding, I can be like, you know, sorry, life is short.
00:17:41.760
Uh, and you know, no, you, you know, a hundred bucks, that's just not worth it for me.
00:17:51.940
And I, so I totally support everyone's right for that.
00:17:55.160
The problem with this, like religious freedom nonsense is that these people will like, you
00:18:00.800
know, the, the civil rights act basically violates these basic rights of a free association.
00:18:09.580
A business owner should have a right not to serve a black person.
00:18:14.420
But it just is what it is that, that, that if we're going to live in a free society, you
00:18:18.920
The civil rights act obviously violates, uh, private property and free association.
00:18:24.740
So the religious right who will endorse Martin Luther King will deify Martin Luther King and
00:18:33.220
But, but apparently if you, if you have a monotheistic or religious commandment not to do something,
00:18:42.040
So they don't even support true freedom of association.
00:18:45.580
They just support this bullshit freedom of association that if you can lawyer up, go to
00:18:53.080
court and claim that my holy book made me do it.
00:18:56.860
And therefore you don't have to service a gay wedding.
00:19:00.380
I mean, it's just, look, I don't want to say that I'm against this free association, but
00:19:05.940
the freedom of religious freedom as defined by the religious right and the conservative movement
00:19:12.780
And I'm sorry about that, but that's what it is.
00:19:16.360
And that Indiana law, first off, explicitly said in the law that a federal, the federal
00:19:22.200
government can override this law whenever it sees fit, which they don't even have to
00:19:28.380
We live in a federal structure, but anyway, so it was, the law was basically meaningless.
00:19:33.600
I mean, if someone, if someone claimed the religious freedom, like a Mormon claimed
00:19:38.680
it's religious freedom, not to serve people with the mark of cane or something that would
00:19:43.440
kind of be hilarious, but clearly the federal government would come in and stop that.
00:19:50.260
And then after that law passed in the state of Indiana and the, in, in the Congress of
00:19:56.580
Indiana, uh, and they had all this pushback and on the media was going wild.
00:20:00.860
You know, Tim Cook of Apple wrote his stupid op-ed against all this kind of stuff.
00:20:05.820
After Mike Pence felt the heat, he backed down and he, he, he watered down the law even
00:20:11.600
So it was this, he, he wanted to have his cake.
00:20:14.180
He wanted to have his gay wedding cake and eat it too, so to speak.
00:20:17.660
He wanted to signal morally signal that he is a member of the religious right.
00:20:23.100
He's a card carrying, uh, you know, uh, American traditionalist, uh, yeah.
00:20:27.680
But then he didn't want to actually do anything.
00:20:30.060
So, uh, you know, I, as I was joking with you before we, we, we turn on the recorder,
00:20:34.940
you know, I almost respect a, like a dyed in the wool creationist or, or, or, uh, really
00:20:45.740
I respect them for the courage of their convictions.
00:20:48.760
I don't respect someone like Mike Pence who lacks the courage of his convictions.
00:20:53.300
He's just, he's just a morally signal signaling, uh, fake, uh, conservative.
00:20:59.940
And so the other thing, Mike Pence is going to get a ton of heat.
00:21:05.100
He is going to get so much pushback by the fact that he's associated with Trump because
00:21:10.160
Trump is associated with white nationalism, with, uh, Russia with, you know, let's throw
00:21:16.260
out other thing, you know, uh, radical conservatism and so on.
00:21:20.880
And all we've seen from him is that he's just this milk toast weakling.
00:21:26.940
So when he gets pushed on something, I guarantee you that Hillary, cause Hillary's smart and
00:21:31.980
crafty and she is getting old and, but she still has some craftiness left in her.
00:21:41.420
Let's not, you know, she, she's still an intelligent bitch and she's going to push him
00:21:47.340
into a corner and she's going to get him in a way where she's going to make him basically
00:21:52.200
disagree with Trump and, and, and undermine Trump's nationalism.
00:21:56.800
And I, I guarantee you this is going to happen.
00:22:01.480
They're going to purposely try and divide the ticket because Mike Pence is nothing at all.
00:22:09.780
Like, like Donald Trump, he's like you said, he's this basic bitch, milk toast conservative
00:22:17.900
who doesn't really compliment the ticket in any way.
00:22:25.220
I mean, from here on out until the election, we're just going to be witnessing weekly struggle
00:22:31.020
sessions for Mike Pence on the cable news networks when they're going to pull up like, oh, Donald
00:22:42.020
Do you support Vladimir Putin who, you know, he's guilty of all these like human rights violations.
00:22:52.520
Because Donald Trump said he'd let Bruce Jenner use the ladies room at Trump Tower.
00:23:01.300
You know, it's, it's, he doesn't stand with Trump on any of the issues that Trump has really
00:23:12.560
And so from here on out, it's just going to, that's going to be the strategy of the, the
00:23:17.320
Democrats and the Clinton war machine is to basically make Mike Pence look like a fool because
00:23:25.320
he's essentially has to flip flop on, on the wars.
00:23:29.120
He has to flip flop on the Christian conservative values because Donald Trump, Donald Trump, I
00:23:36.120
don't really think he believes in any of the Christian conservative right stuff.
00:23:41.320
And I think he's always, he's just signaled like, oh yeah, I'm pro-life now because, you
00:23:46.360
know, I had this change of heart and I just think it's really bad.
00:23:50.600
It's really a lighthearted attempt to just appeal to the Christian conservative right in
00:24:02.220
He seems like a fairly secular guy, probably libertarian in his social beliefs.
00:24:08.760
So I don't think he really cares about any of those issues to be entirely honest.
00:24:14.720
He seems more concerned about the issues he's formed his campaign around of and Mike Pence
00:24:32.560
Uh, meanwhile, you have Mike Pence here who, he supported the Central American Free Trade
00:24:41.940
He supported free trade agreements with South Korea, Colombia, Peru, Panama, Oman, Chile,
00:24:47.620
Singapore, and Donald Trump is against all of those things.
00:24:58.880
I mean, I, all I've heard is he's a former Reagan hand, and then he's kind of been around
00:25:05.240
the world and was involved with Yanukovych, who was a pro-Russian president in, uh, in
00:25:12.760
Ukraine, who was, um, uh, overthrown by the Maidan, uh, revolution.
00:25:18.040
Uh, so I, I, I've heard things like that and I've been like, oh, this guy sounds kind of
00:25:22.240
Um, but I, I, you know, and I, and I felt, I almost imagined him to be this Machiavellian
00:25:28.720
cold, uh, uh, person, but I, I, and maybe he is, but I, I almost feel like it just because
00:25:36.700
of his age and his experience in the American context, he, he's just kind of a, a, a, a
00:25:45.000
And, and he, so we're seeing his tendencies and Corey Lewandowski, who I look, I, I don't,
00:25:53.780
I don't think we should totally, uh, lionize Corey Lewandowski.
00:25:58.020
I mean, he, the, the Trump campaign was just basically Trump's like Twitter feed that, that
00:26:07.460
They didn't have a ground game and Trump overcame it all, which is great.
00:26:13.340
But, uh, but, but, you know, I, I, I, I don't think Corey Lewandowski, I think Corey Lewandowski
00:26:18.080
looked to be a little bit out of his league, although he, he seemed to be a genuine guy.
00:26:24.180
And I, and I think I, I've heard this, this story, I don't know if you've heard as well,
00:26:27.700
like there was a sign in the campaign headquarters, which said, let Trump be Trump.
00:26:32.780
And, you know, whatever you want to say about Corey, he made some mistakes, but that was
00:26:41.580
One thing you got with, uh, Corey Lewandowski is Corey Lewandowski came out of the Tea Party
00:26:49.020
And regardless of what you think about the Tea Party movement, it was kind of a anti-establishment
00:26:59.640
Um, and Corey Lewandowski has kind of, you know, he came out of that movement.
00:27:05.280
And so he does hold some anti-establishment views himself.
00:27:09.740
And so he was the perfect, uh, manager at the time for Donald Trump because Donald Trump's
00:27:18.200
Donald Trump represents, he's become the shelling point for all these, you know, right-wing
00:27:24.380
groups like the libertarians, the Tea Party, the white nationalists, the agrarian people,
00:27:33.020
He, and he just popped up and everyone just naturally gravitated towards him.
00:27:38.520
And like, this is the wrecking ball we're going to use.
00:27:41.780
And that was what Corey Lewandowski was kind of helping lead the charge with that.
00:27:48.420
You got Paul Manafort and I'm looking at his Wikipedia page now.
00:27:55.800
I don't even think he's necessarily a basic bitch conservative.
00:27:59.240
I think he's just a, a Republican, he's a party guy.
00:28:03.040
He's been an advisor to Ford, Reagan, Bush one, Dole, Bush two, McCain.
00:28:11.440
He's a Republican party guy who comes in and this is probably why he was brought in, was
00:28:19.260
to, to help with the convention because that's important that Donald Trump not get screwed
00:28:26.040
But also it seems that Paul Manafort has perhaps neutered the Donald Trump campaign to some extent
00:28:39.040
And instead he's trying to whip up the party to get everyone behind Donald Trump so that
00:28:45.680
they could win an election, which ultimately that's the goal here is to win an election.
00:28:51.080
But Donald Trump is also leading a political movement.
00:28:56.420
It's not just, oh, we're going to win an election and do some conservative things.
00:29:00.380
This is about changing the political discussion.
00:29:04.860
And when Paul Manafort comes in and he pulls, you know, someone like Mike Pence and decides
00:29:12.620
this is going to be the guy we're going to put on the ticket.
00:29:14.520
It really takes away from the message and ultimately it hurts the movement in the short term and
00:29:24.680
in the long term because this just sets up someone like Mike Pence to run for president in the
00:29:31.740
future and you know that it's going to be back to business as usual.
00:29:37.380
And we know that Donald Trump doesn't even necessarily like the Michael Pence pick.
00:29:43.400
There's some news stories that came out that says that Donald Trump was even hesitant to
00:29:50.500
And so Donald Trump's not going with his gut here, which is something he's been essentially
00:29:55.460
doing the whole time is just going with his gut and doing what Donald Trump does.
00:30:01.480
And it seems that Paul Manafort has taken over the campaign of Donald Trump.
00:30:09.820
So they might have been reporting from the same source or perhaps they were reporting
00:30:15.140
But basically, they were saying that Donald Trump was making these last minute phone calls
00:30:20.040
on Friday night, seeing if he could switch gears if it were too late.
00:30:26.880
I mean, he shouldn't have allowed it to go that far.
00:30:29.460
But yeah, I mean, that is one piece of evidence.
00:30:34.160
That's certainly not definitive that Trump's gut was not in this and that he wanted to
00:30:43.320
And instead, he picked a successor who was just a return to 2000 era, Bush era conservatism.
00:30:56.120
He just said that, no, my successor, my right-hand man is that, like in its essence, in its
00:31:03.200
most purified and therefore most boring form is Mike Pence.
00:31:11.180
Um, how would you gauge the alt-right Twitter reaction?
00:31:17.840
Uh, because I have my opinion, but I want yours, because obviously it's difficult to
00:31:24.040
We're kind of going with feedback we're getting, but, but what, what is your sense of the alt-right
00:31:36.580
I don't think anyone's really impressed by the pick.
00:31:40.400
A lot of people think that this is just a pick to appease the conservative establishment.
00:31:48.860
Vice presidential choices are entirely irrelevant.
00:31:54.060
And Trump was just going to pick a non-important person to be on the ticket because, I mean, Donald
00:32:04.060
But there's nothing that you can put on the ticket that would really jazz it up in a way
00:32:10.340
that would make it more exciting than it already is.
00:32:15.520
No one's going to go to the convention for Pence.
00:32:19.540
And, and also I think, you know, there's probably some apologists, uh, in our sphere for the pick.
00:32:28.480
Maybe they're very, they're a little more emotionally invested in the Donald Trump campaign than they
00:32:36.440
And so they're going to, anytime Trump has a slip up, they're going to immediately come
00:32:42.100
to the defense because ultimately they just want Donald Trump to be the candidate.
00:32:46.600
But I think most everyone is not really impressed.
00:32:50.860
And then a lot of us are, you know, repulsed by the pick.
00:32:55.120
We just think it's stupid and it doesn't make sense.
00:33:01.880
I feel like they're rationalizing, uh, more than anything.
00:33:06.020
And then, and they'll make arguments like, well, he's not black or, or he, we need to
00:33:13.240
win over all these people, which is, again, it's like the, the religious rights stuff does
00:33:26.360
He, he's, Pence is actually having trouble within his own state.
00:33:29.380
He might, he might very well have been elected, but that was actually in question.
00:33:42.940
Um, and, and they, they just seem to be rationalizing.
00:33:45.600
I think there's a lot of also like, uh, keep calm and put your faith in Trump because Trump
00:33:53.420
Um, you know, he, he, this has worked so far, but, uh, you know, he, Trump actually has made
00:34:03.700
Uh, the, the abortion thing, I think, I think was a clearly an error.
00:34:08.000
I, I don't think that was that, that brought him absolutely nothing.
00:34:11.740
And he backtracked and flipped very uncharacteristically, uh, effectively apologized.
00:34:17.860
So, uh, I, I don't, you know, I, he, he has made some major errors and I think there's,
00:34:24.480
there's reason to believe there's evidence, not definitive evidence that his gut really wasn't
00:34:34.680
I, I don't, I think, I think our movement is going to be, is we're going to be, we're
00:34:40.520
And I think we're going to have more impact and influence when we criticize people.
00:34:45.000
If, if we're taken for granted as the Trump cheerleading squad, no one, people aren't going
00:34:53.560
Um, and I agree, look, Trump has been like overwhelmingly inspiring thus far.
00:34:59.660
Uh, but I, I always knew there was going to come a time when you have to push back.
00:35:07.660
I don't, I don't know how many people are really off the Trump train.
00:35:14.200
Um, but I think, I, I think generally speaking, even the people who are rationalizing it, I
00:35:21.160
think if you, if they really were honest with you, they would admit that this is really
00:35:29.560
It's just not, it's not what we wanted and it's just not exciting.
00:35:34.540
Again, like choosing Jim Webb or something totally outside the box, uh, that would have
00:35:42.100
Another interesting pick, you know, uh, generally when you're running, uh, for president, another
00:35:50.700
move is to pick someone that you were running against.
00:35:56.200
So, uh, Chris Christie, maybe, but not really, but also an interesting pick, kind of an out
00:36:04.180
there pick would have been someone like Rand Paul.
00:36:07.140
Who Rand Paul is appealing to a lot of, you know, Midwestern types because he's kind of
00:36:13.100
like a libert, he's like his father in some ways, you know, very libertarian, very sensible
00:36:19.840
And he's, he's, he's not necessarily one of these, you know, culture war, the, you know,
00:36:27.640
That's more concerned about gay weddings and like gay conversion therapy.
00:36:32.720
He seems to be more concerned about foreign policy and like government surveillance.
00:36:38.940
And those are things that a lot of Americans are concerned about.
00:36:44.340
And it has some appeals, even though Rand Paul cucked himself by calling himself a Detroit
00:36:52.220
That was just kind of a goofball move, but that would have been a more interesting pick than
00:36:58.820
I think Rand shot himself in the foot by going, he, he was effectively never Trump or at the
00:37:05.380
very least pretty viciously anti-Trump, uh, during the early primaries before he dropped
00:37:10.960
I mean, I remember he went on, um, uh, one of those like post John Stewart daily show thing,
00:37:17.320
like the black daily shows that are now running.
00:37:20.080
And he was like, Oh, he's an orange face clown.
00:37:23.080
He, he just, that, that kind of stuff was really unnecessary.
00:37:27.240
And, and also when you're down, uh, you know, it, it, it look, it just looks cheap, you know,
00:37:35.560
He, he, he's, he has many multiples more support than you do.
00:37:40.280
You know, the sad thing is that, uh, that this movement was ran to Paul's to kind of take
00:37:47.760
over and to be this grassroots populism, let's take back our country, rah, rah, rah.
00:37:54.020
And instead he's in Detroit throwing the, you know, the federal tax code in a wood chipper
00:38:04.520
I, this whole election was ran Paul's to lose and we forget that now.
00:38:09.240
Uh, but he was in early 2015, I think he was announced as the most interesting man in
00:38:19.400
Lots of people picked him, but I think more than that, the Trump movement was his to lose
00:38:23.380
because his father had a little mini Trump movement going and, um, and there, you know,
00:38:31.740
And, and, and I think you had a lot of genuine people who, uh, would have voted for, would
00:38:37.920
have gotten on board with Rand if he had been this kind of, you know, libertarian, conservative
00:38:45.500
Uh, and instead he became this left libertarian black lives matter synthesis, which, uh, basically
00:38:58.860
Prior to Donald Trump getting into the race, if you would have told me a few years ago
00:39:03.760
that I would be voting for Donald Trump and not for Rand Paul, I would have said that you're
00:39:10.640
And I'm sure a lot of the guys in the alt-right are like that.
00:39:16.120
I know lots of guys in the alternative right were Ron Paul people.
00:39:21.160
And, uh, in 2012, we were looking at this like, oh, Rand Paul is going to be the guy
00:39:26.200
that this is going to be at, and he, he just, um, really dropped the ball to say the least.
00:39:33.200
It's, it's like he, he's, he pursued a strategy that was somewhat similar to what Weld and,
00:39:40.320
uh, Gary Johnson are pursuing, which they, they'll, they'll say things like, oh, we're,
00:39:45.460
uh, socially liberal, but fiscally conservative, like as if they're the best of both worlds.
00:39:50.120
But what they really are is the worst of both worlds, uh, because they don't, they, they
00:39:55.740
seem actually rather squishy on foreign policy.
00:39:59.460
They're, they're definitely not populist about it.
00:40:02.000
Uh, they want all the stuff that turns off graph grassroots conservatives.
00:40:10.640
Uh, uh, but then, you know, they're pro I'm sure they're, they would say nice things about
00:40:17.060
Uh, but then they're also like, oh, but also by the way, we're going to take away your social
00:40:22.740
I mean, it's just like, you know, if you wanted to construct a less attractive candidate, I'm
00:40:30.800
I'm for BLM and against your pension vote for me.
00:40:37.600
I mean, it's, and, and, and Rand Paul had a little bit of that going where he, he was
00:40:41.740
like drawing on all the, the wrong aspects of left and right.
00:40:46.380
Uh, and, and, and Donald Trump draws on the positive aspects of left and right.
00:40:53.120
He draws on the nationalism, the anti-immigration stuff, the let's bring the jobs back.
00:40:59.240
This like basic conservatism that is very appealing.
00:41:03.360
Uh, and then he'll pull some things from the left.
00:41:05.440
I mean, he, as many have pointed out, Bernie Sanders and Donald Trump sound very similar
00:41:16.260
And, uh, so, I mean, that's the kind of, I mean, it's just clear.
00:41:19.960
That's the kind of thing that you can start a movement and shake things up.
00:41:23.540
Um, and again, I, I just, I don't know what to say.
00:41:26.500
I, I'm not, I mean, I'm not never Trump at this point.
00:41:36.460
I mean, this just seems to be pointing in the wrong direction and it's all symbolism because
00:41:42.200
again, the VP does not have a tremendous out of power.
00:41:45.200
He's basically the, he presides over the Senate.
00:41:49.080
I mean, it's not, you know, and he's in the cabinet, uh, and, and Trump doesn't, you know,
00:41:58.740
He doesn't, he's not always going to listen to his cabinet, uh, but nevertheless, it's just
00:42:09.460
Um, I don't know if you've read the piece in Breitbart, it was written about 10 days
00:42:14.200
ago by Ann Coulter, but, uh, she was saying that, uh, yeah, if Donald Trump picks any one
00:42:21.740
of these insider Republicans, it's going to be garbage, they're not going to add anything
00:42:27.920
If anything, they're just going to weigh the ticket down because now the media is going
00:42:36.940
And like we mentioned earlier, put Michael Pence through a weekly struggle session of, uh,
00:42:43.300
being an apologist for Donald Trump being, you know, a nasty racist who hangs out with
00:42:48.760
white supremacists on Twitter and all this shit.
00:42:52.000
And then she also made a very interesting point, which I don't know if they would ever do this,
00:42:57.860
but she said that, um, if Donald Trump were elected with one of these Republican insiders
00:43:03.640
like Michael Pence, that, uh, the, the Republican party would then lead an impeachment campaign
00:43:11.760
against Donald Trump to kick them to the curb and then put their party establishment guy
00:43:21.640
I mean, I, I've, I've heard this, uh, bandied about on Twitter and I, I, I, for good reason,
00:43:27.080
I think, and that, that is assassination insurance.
00:43:32.600
Uh, definitely not, but I think Rand Paul would have given some assassination insurance
00:43:38.700
because the, the neocons have never trusted Rand Paul, uh, liberals don't really trust them
00:43:46.140
because they, they see in his father and the libertarian movement, they, they just have,
00:43:54.300
I think Rand Paul could have been assassination insurance.
00:44:02.360
Jim Webb, who knows what he would have done, would have been, you know, Jacksonian America,
00:44:11.300
Uh, so, uh, but yeah, Mike Pence, he, he's not only is he a generic basic bitch Republican,
00:44:19.620
And so I, I think they, I think a lot of the people who are, uh, uh, against Trump correctly
00:44:29.500
I think someone tweeted at me before we, just before we went on this podcast that, um, it's
00:44:35.400
Uh, Gerald Ford actually was a fairly smart guy, but he's generally remembered as a, as
00:44:40.320
a pushover, as a total middle of the road, no real ideas, you know, pragmatic to a fault
00:44:54.700
Are the, can you find a reason to gin up hatred against Trump, uh, to get enough people in
00:45:00.780
Congress and the, including Democrats and Republicans to impeach him to do something
00:45:07.860
Um, and, and there, there is the terrible thing that I don't even want to talk about because
00:45:12.820
it's so distasteful and, uh, and that is the, you know, assassination, uh, kind of thing.
00:45:18.840
Um, you know, look, if these people, trillions of dollars are at stake, the future of the world's
00:45:24.360
at stake, uh, things like for, you know, foreign geopolitics, foreign policy, you know, they're
00:45:31.980
Uh, so I don't, I don't think we should be Pollyannish and say, Oh, they'd never do that.
00:45:37.460
Uh, I don't, I, again, I don't like talking about that because it's, it's just so distasteful.
00:45:42.600
Uh, but yeah, um, get, you know, get rid of Trump by, by impeachment or some other means.
00:45:49.440
And you have this doofus up there who's going to appoint some other doofus as his new VP
00:45:59.700
I think also just to add onto that and, and to talk in less sinister terms, I think this
00:46:07.720
Uh, the GOP, the GOP establishment never wanted Trump.
00:46:12.500
I think they're comfortable with conservatism as their dominant ideology and Trump, they're,
00:46:19.780
they're not at all comfortable with nationalism as their dominant ideology.
00:46:23.780
So even if the, some of the far reaches of the religious right might offend them, they
00:46:29.720
generally would prefer that to, um, you know, the, the kind of nationalism that, that Trump
00:46:41.020
Um, I, I think that they were experimenting with different rules, um, here and there, uh, that
00:46:48.860
they were, you know, there's this rule, what is it?
00:46:51.060
Rule 40 that to be nominated by the floor, you have to have won, uh, what is it?
00:46:57.260
Eight primaries or do you, do you know the details of that?
00:46:59.940
Yeah, the, the, the, the Ron Paul rule essentially from, uh, 2008 in order, you had to win, yeah,
00:47:08.820
I believe it was something like five, it sounds right.
00:47:12.060
Eight states, you had to win eight primaries in order to be eligible for nomination on the
00:47:21.080
So they, they doubled down on that rule actually.
00:47:24.900
So the never Trump movement, you know, William Kristol's wet dream of having Doug French
00:47:35.240
So that's, that's done with, uh, that ain't going to happen.
00:47:38.660
But now we have this new thing where now we have, we have someone, we have basically a
00:47:44.100
total establishment party insider guy who is, uh, right there, one breath away from the,
00:47:55.840
So perhaps they could try to impeach Donald Trump and that would have the support of both
00:48:01.700
That would be the only bipartisan support that would ever happen in Washington would be kicking
00:48:06.640
out Donald Trump because the left would, wants to get rid of him and the Republicans
00:48:18.380
The left will love to see the Republicans eat themselves alive and the Republicans would
00:48:34.940
This is never heard of before this total outsider running on these radical new ideas that don't
00:48:46.540
We live in very interesting times as you know, we're always saying, and it's true.
00:48:52.880
Uh, I mean, the future of this country's at stake, the future of Europe's at stake.
00:49:03.120
And if we can, uh, you know, squelch that by kicking Donald Trump out and going back to
00:49:09.320
business as usual, then, you know, the party, the establishment would definitely want to
00:49:20.400
I mean, it would piss off everyone who voted for Donald Trump.
00:49:22.740
Well, I think they, I think they originally wanted to keep rule 40 last, uh, fall and winter,
00:49:30.140
uh, before the primaries, because they felt that Donald Trump wouldn't get to eight states
00:49:37.020
Uh, and then, then they kind of got to this new situation where after he was winning, they're
00:49:42.180
like, oh, well, maybe we should get rid of rule 40.
00:49:47.560
Uh, that basically says, maybe we should get rid of it so that we can have a never Trump,
00:49:51.340
you know, contested fight and Ted Cruz will get up there.
00:49:54.680
I think at some point, um, the rents previous of the world, uh, basically set down and, and
00:50:04.980
I mean, they're, they're, they're brutally pragmatic.
00:50:08.080
Uh, and they look, they, they sat down and said, look, if we, after what's just happened
00:50:13.320
with the creation of this movement and, and also just Trump's success winning New Hampshire,
00:50:17.680
South Carolina on, on that, if we were to take it away from him, that, that might seriously
00:50:24.040
jeopardize the, the Republican party going forward.
00:50:28.020
And so I think they came to a, you know, accommodation where they said, let's lose this
00:50:36.380
And then basically say, we told you so you can't do this stuff.
00:50:39.660
And then they'll just go to a reset and we will be back with, you know, a battle between
00:50:46.520
Jeb Bush and Mike Pence for the presidency in, uh, 2020.
00:50:52.220
It's just going to be back to that same boring nonsense.
00:50:54.400
They're just going to, you know, write out Western civilization.
00:50:59.200
And, uh, you know, and I, I don't think you can go back.
00:51:02.940
I think Trump has unleashed energies and in many ways, unleashed energies unwillingly to
00:51:10.820
Uh, but, uh, but, but nevertheless, I think that is their strategy.
00:51:15.080
I think they're just going to reluctantly hold their nose and give the nomination to
00:51:18.600
I think the possibility of a contested convention is approaching zero.
00:51:24.980
And with the hope that we'll just reset it, you know, uh, you know, in 2017.
00:51:29.960
And, um, so yeah, I, I think that's what they want, but I don't think they'll get that.
00:51:35.200
But again, if, if Trump, if Trump blows this and Trump, you know, allows himself to be impeached
00:51:43.420
and then we get, and then Mike Pence is there, if Trump sets up Mike Pence as his successor,
00:51:48.200
which just seems ridiculous in a way, just look at this guy.
00:51:52.460
Um, I, I think that we could see that this, this was just kind of like this moment had all
00:52:02.620
Um, yeah, it would be, and it would hurt a lot because while the alternative right is
00:52:12.000
not necessarily as emotionally invested in Trump's success, uh, middle America is, I mean,
00:52:20.980
they're going to rallies where they're putting their lives in danger and they're getting
00:52:29.260
They do, in a lot of ways, they do view a lot of middle Americans who, they're very much
00:52:35.020
married to the idea of what they think America is or what it was.
00:52:42.080
And Trump getting totally neutered in that way would really be, I think, heartbreaking to
00:52:49.660
Um, and they, in many ways might give up on, on America as a whole.
00:52:57.300
I think that's, that's, uh, very poignant what you just said.
00:53:01.360
I mean, I, to a very large degree, the alt-right is intellectually and ideologically post-American.
00:53:08.040
Uh, I know I am, but a lot of people who, who might even call themselves all right now because
00:53:19.960
Uh, but, uh, definitely, I mean, it's definitely not, I'm a small part of it actually, but, um,
00:53:29.000
They are not intellectually or ideologically or emotionally, uh, post-American at all.
00:53:36.840
And, uh, they have, they have a lot more of their heart at stake in this election.
00:53:42.820
And, uh, so yeah, I, I, I think for them, it is very sad because conservatives have been,
00:53:49.640
Conservatives have just consistently sold them out and it's like they finally found a guy
00:54:00.880
Yeah, it's, uh, and that's the thing is they're not going to know where to go because
00:54:07.120
a lot of the people, uh, the, you know, the middle America, the Mars, as Sam Francis put
00:54:13.180
it, the middle American revolution, they're not willing to do what people in the alternative
00:54:20.480
I mean, in a lot of ways we have completely uninstalled, um, America and installed like
00:54:29.180
new post-American thinking of how we're going to operate in this new environment.
00:54:33.960
They, once that Americana is uninstalled from their minds because it essentially has been
00:54:40.400
destroyed by the destruction of the Trump campaign, they don't know where to go.
00:54:45.600
And, you know, we're the scary, you know, anonymous racists on the internet.
00:54:52.800
You know, they're generally, they're, they're not racially conscious in the way that we are.
00:54:58.440
They just, they view themselves as they're Americans and they very strongly believe in,
00:55:07.360
And when Trump, the man who's going to stand for America goes down, then it's back to business
00:55:15.120
And they don't know where to turn and they're going to be very afraid and hesitant to turn
00:55:19.760
to people like us, which is we need to get those people.
00:55:23.040
We need to get those people regardless if Trump is successful or not, because that's
00:55:29.380
If, you know, that's white America, that's where we want the movement.
00:55:33.140
We need those people and they're going to be lost and they're going to feel, they're
00:55:41.600
And, and I don't, I don't think we should just assume that, uh, they're going to come
00:55:46.340
I think we should be honest with ourselves, um, that we're going to have to come to them
00:55:51.460
a little bit also, you know, we, we, we don't, you don't want to always, when I'm speaking
00:55:56.860
with people who are already initiated, I think that is the time to, uh, you know, go full red
00:56:03.720
pill, talk about the coming European order, talk about being post America, but yeah, let's
00:56:09.840
We're going to also need to speak to people on their level.
00:56:12.540
And that doesn't mean that we're lying to them.
00:56:14.520
There's a very big difference between trying to manipulate someone and just understanding
00:56:19.800
your audiences and speaking to them on their terms and maybe not giving them the whole
00:56:25.440
red pill all at once because they're not going to swallow it.
00:56:28.640
So I think that is definitely a, uh, a major challenge for us.
00:56:32.880
Yeah, basically we have to take these radical, um, I would say non-American ideas or post-American
00:56:42.520
ideas and package them so that these people who, they are diehard Americans and basically
00:56:52.800
we need to take alt-right thinking, package it in Americana and give it to these people
00:56:57.500
so that it's not foreign and weird to them, that it's something that resonates with them.
00:57:04.600
And so that, that is going to be a big part of what the alternative right has to do.
00:57:09.000
They have to Americanize, uh, the message and not in a bad way, but, you know, appeal
00:57:18.660
And there's a lot of things that Americans should be proud of.
00:57:22.680
And there's a lot of things here, the revolutionary spirit of the American revolution, the archetypes
00:57:28.800
of like the pioneer, the cowboy, the astronaut, we went to space, we went to the moon, we've
00:57:36.540
done a lot of great things here in America and, you know, we're all, everyone, we all
00:57:41.520
love to shit on America, but we, we, and you know, America's shit on by all kinds of people
00:57:47.800
all the time and we do it ourselves, but it's time to start, you know, it's time to stop
00:57:54.480
It's time to see what do we have here that we can really work with that can, can we get
00:58:00.100
it to resonate with American people so that all of white America can be in the alt-right
00:58:05.440
so that we can make this, uh, something real, something that we can actually build a society
00:58:13.680
around if it's strange and it doesn't make sense to American people, then it's, it's
00:58:25.560
I think we need both because I, I think the intellectual side and, you know, the, the, the
00:58:32.100
totally red pilled Evolian or Nietzschean side, I don't think we should ever lose that.
00:58:37.220
Uh, because, you know, you, you have to have, sometimes you do have to think for people.
00:58:42.320
You, you've got, you've got to develop the software and you, so you've got to know the
00:58:47.540
Uh, and I, and I think also we, we, one thing that we can start to do because the, the environments
00:58:54.460
change so much in terms of technology, but also in terms of legitimacy is start to really
00:58:59.540
replace the conservative movement in terms of intellectual activity.
00:59:03.760
And that, that is in terms of publishing and so on.
00:59:06.700
And that's not going to be, that's an achievable goal.
00:59:09.940
That's not going to be too hard because the, the conservative movement really is brain
00:59:14.940
I was going to say, you're implying that there is an intellectual movement in American
00:59:21.800
I mean, there, there was to a degree, uh, it was a, you know, Buckley hammered together
00:59:28.960
a bunch of things that didn't quite fit together.
00:59:32.080
There was a, a kind of old right libertarianism clobbered onto a, you know, uh, this European
00:59:40.540
Catholic traditionalism that was brought to them from immigrants, including many Jews.
00:59:47.020
Uh, it, it, it was a weird thing that they started to create.
00:59:50.600
And you had people like Russell Kirk kind of imagining that he was the next step in this
00:59:58.040
Um, you know, I think I described it as a, as a jigsaw puzzle, but the pieces didn't
01:00:04.640
And, and that is definitely, um, pretty accurate, but, uh, but I, I think we can replace them
01:00:11.360
because it, you know, they, they don't, there's not a lot of gas left in the tank.
01:00:15.580
I mean, they, they, they, they were a more intellectual movement.
01:00:19.120
And I think at this point, their, their intellectual side are these, you know, Ann Coulter book knockoff
01:00:25.540
books with, you know, one word title, you know, like treason, Hillary Clinton's plan to appoint
01:00:34.660
And, you know, and they, they have a picture of a, you know, caught looking talk conservative
01:00:41.700
And she's holding a assault rifle and standing against a brick wall wearing a prom dress.
01:00:57.740
I mean, like, yeah, like Dana Lesh, she's got a cowboy hat on and her, you know, she has
01:01:04.040
six shooters and she, there's a picture of Dana Lesh's books, a new book.
01:01:08.360
It's called like fly over country or something.
01:01:09.980
And she, she's got like four layers on, she's got like a, a leather jacket and a vest and
01:01:15.620
a t-shirt and a, like something, it's just this like layered cowboy hat.
01:01:19.980
And then she has like gun, like Western style bullets holster and, and like a six shooter.
01:01:29.920
It's like a caricature in a way it's, it's very tacky and, you know, it's very unappealing
01:01:40.360
And then that's another reason why the alternative right is growing because they look at that
01:01:44.140
and they just think that's like goofy shit that only really appeals to like boomers.
01:01:52.120
And so that's why also Ron Paul is popular because he, Ooh, he's like, he has ideas.
01:01:57.440
He's actually talking about philosophers that have influenced his way of thinking.
01:02:02.300
You know, he's actually a pretty interesting guy.
01:02:04.900
And, and then if you stuck around long enough, the, um, the rumors are true.
01:02:10.820
Ron Paul leads to racism and you'll be having a podcast with Richard Spencer.
01:02:17.240
Well, on that note, uh, let's put a book, bookmark in it.
01:02:26.520
And, uh, I think there are going to be some, some more things.
01:02:29.200
I'm glad, I'm glad also that we're criticizing Donald.
01:02:32.140
I, I, I, I was waiting for this moment when it was the time for us to seriously criticize
01:02:43.200
It's important that we're not just cheerleaders for Donald Trump.
01:02:47.880
You know, we are our own ideological metapolitical movement.
01:02:52.920
And, um, we should applaud people when they step to us and, uh, wave our finger at them when
01:03:01.540
And this is the opportunity where Donald Trump deserves to be criticized because the Michael
01:03:10.220
All the key issues Donald Trump cares about, Michael Pence has been opposed to his entire