RadixJournal - Banned in the UK

00:00:00.000 you think about like the Kennedy assassination, which took place like within a mile of where

00:00:04.060 this assassination took place, that, that, that Kennedy assassination, it, it, I mean,

00:00:10.540 it, it divided the country kind of like later, but at the very moment it brought the country

00:00:18.340 together. Like it, it was a, where were you when Kennedy was assassinated? And, um, I, I, and I

00:00:25.880 think this is a very different one because this, this assassination, which resembled the Kennedy

00:00:31.720 assassination in remarkable ways, uh, you know, just the location, the use of rifles, which were

00:00:37.820 apparently used, um, you know, picking off public authority figures. I mean, it's, it was like,

00:00:43.800 uh, the Kennedy assassination for the 21st century, but I guess what it's different. It's, it's like

00:00:49.200 with the, with the assassination of a head of state, everyone wants to come together and talk about it,

00:00:55.540 you know, wow. You know, this reminds us who we are as Americans, or I never thought this would

00:01:00.680 happen here. You know, this, how could they do this to such an energetic, handsome, young leader,

00:01:05.980 so on. Um, now people don't want to talk about it because it is precisely because it is so painful

00:01:14.160 because to talk about it, you've got to talk about race and the reality of this fragmenting society

00:01:22.720 that we live in. You, you can't get away from the fact that this, this, this wasn't just a madman,

00:01:28.420 you know, he didn't do it to impress Jodie Foster or, you know, he, they, they did it for ideological,

00:01:35.340 political reasons. And these political reasons are precisely racial nationalism. And these, this is

00:01:41.920 exactly the thing that we don't want to ever talk about in America and, and, and around the world.

00:01:49.040 Like this, this is something it, it kind of, it haunts us like a nightmare. And, um, and yet this

00:01:55.440 is the exact thing that defined this event, but Matthew Tate, welcome. I'm, uh, you've never been

00:02:02.480 on the podcast before that. I am remiss for not inviting you earlier, but, uh, but thanks for being

00:02:08.020 on. Well, it's a pleasure. Thanks for, uh, for inviting me on. I'm looking forward to coming to the

00:02:13.820 conference in November. So having the chance to speak to you is, uh, very, very welcome.

00:02:19.040 It's my pleasure. Uh, why don't, let's talk a little bit about what happened in Dallas. This,

00:02:25.780 this is definitely not what we planned to talk about today, but, uh, sometimes the, uh, best made

00:02:31.120 plans, uh, get, uh, get changed when, uh, when an event like, um, what happened last night, uh, occurred.

00:02:37.780 So, um, just speaking as a, as a non-American, as an, as an outsider, how are, how are you thinking

00:02:44.540 about the Dallas event and, and, and maybe also how, how are, how are some normies in,

00:02:50.720 in England thinking about the event? How, how do people talk about it?

00:02:55.880 Well, to be honest with the, with the news being so fresh, I haven't really seen that much of it.

00:03:01.920 I have some, uh, some assumptions and I've done some basic reading about what's gone on,

00:03:06.020 but, um, my impression is from the normie press in, in the UK is that it's being reported

00:03:11.840 along the narrative. So the narrative is, uh, police brutality against blacks,

00:03:17.860 blacks feel victimized, blacks have legitimate gripe, therefore organize themselves to defend

00:03:22.860 themselves in a sort of Martin Luther-esque capacity, fighting for their own justice.

00:03:28.420 And, um, are you referring to the Protestant reformer or the black civil rights activist?

00:03:34.720 Oh, yes, of course. The, uh, the latter. Did I say Martin Luther?

00:03:38.780 Yeah. Well, Martin Luther King has, has, uh, usurped Martin Luther in the, in our collective

00:03:45.100 consciousness. I, is an interesting slip in a way.

00:03:47.920 It is interesting. Yeah. But you know what I mean? Um, certainly the way it's being reported

00:03:51.520 over here is, is exactly along with the narrative without any kind of an insight into the realities

00:03:56.220 of it. And I, I'm assuming that these, uh, these, I think the two men have been shot by police

00:04:01.880 recently and it's triggered a whole fresh round of protests all across the country. And I assume

00:04:06.360 that these two young men are the, uh, of the didn't do nothing capacity who, um, were probably

00:04:12.880 guilty as charged. Is that right? Well, yeah. I mean, look, I, these, these things are very ambiguous.

00:04:22.140 Um, I, you know, every, every event, well, well, almost every event, uh, of where, where

00:04:29.200 a police officer will shoot someone is, is, is ambiguous. There are some that certainly

00:04:34.200 are cut and dry. Um, you know, there's a video that's being passed around of, of someone who

00:04:39.600 these two people in the car. And, uh, I don't know if you've seen this one, but it's a very

00:04:44.860 surreal video because it happens after, uh, the, uh, uh, the man had been shot and he is

00:04:52.420 literally, uh, lying in his car dying while his, uh, girlfriend is, um, rather calmly making

00:05:02.740 a selfie video of the event. So we, we don't know what happened before that. Um, uh, the other

00:05:09.580 one involving Alton, uh, someone is again, this guy was a huge thug. Uh, that doesn't

00:05:16.140 mean that he deserves to die of course, but, um, but you know, let's be honest. I mean,

00:05:21.540 if you, if you put yourself in the shoes of, of a police officer, you put yourself in his,

00:05:26.960 you try to think about his experience with people like Alton and others, uh, they are in

00:05:33.200 a terribly difficult situation. And, uh, there, I'm sure there's some ambiguity, ambiguity

00:05:38.640 of these cases, but, um, you know, it is what it is. And also police violence against blacks,

00:05:44.440 it really, it is not, there is no, it is predictable as to their arrest. So it's not this whole idea

00:05:55.660 that the police are out hunting, uh, blacks, which is a, a meme that goes around, uh, just

00:06:02.040 really does not make sense. I mean, it, it, police violence is proportional to the arrest of

00:06:08.600 blacks and, and blacks engaging in violent crimes. I have seen some statistics on this

00:06:15.200 and the stats that I saw, I think indicated actually that if you're being arrested by the

00:06:20.680 police for committing a violent crime or an alleged violent crime, the police are much less likely to

00:06:25.620 shoot you if you're black than if you're white. Have you seen that? I've not, I've actually not

00:06:30.040 seen that statistic. I'm going to go look that up. Um, I would say this, even if whether that statistic

00:06:36.680 is true or not, I think that statistic is going to be true in the foreseeable future because this,

00:06:43.280 this, these events, which in themselves are, you could say unimportant, you know, there,

00:06:50.160 there are 30,000 or so people die in, in automobile accidents every year in America. That's a pretty

00:06:57.480 shocking number of deaths to be honest, thousands every weekend, yet none of them are reported.

00:07:03.400 None of them capture the imagination. They're just treated as accidents. Uh, but these, you know,

00:07:09.160 a few, uh, a few incidents of police brutality, especially when you could, when the police are

00:07:14.760 white and the victim is black, it just captures the media's imagination. It fits right into their

00:07:20.240 narrative and it becomes this thing that we're, we have to talk about for months. Basically we talk

00:07:25.320 about it until the next one occurs. Uh, and so I think the, these things are so intense and,

00:07:30.600 and, and political correctness is so this, this regime of political correctness is so intense

00:07:35.620 that, um, I, I, I'm, I've, I wouldn't, I would easily predict that they're going to be serious,

00:07:44.160 um, you know, uh, how do you say diversity training and, you know, racial sensitivity training going

00:07:51.760 on in police, uh, departments from here on out to the point that a police officers are going

00:07:57.580 to be afraid to do anything to blacks. They're going to, they're going to be afraid to use force

00:08:01.240 rightly. Yeah. They're going to think that, is it really worth it? Because no matter what happens,

00:08:05.700 they're going to be the ones on, uh, in, in the firing line, they're going to be damned if they do

00:08:10.560 damned if they don't. Exactly. Um, and, and I, I think they're going to, they'll be afraid to use

00:08:17.060 force and rightly when, when they should be using force. And I think a lot of police officers

00:08:21.220 will no doubt die because they are afraid to use force when force is necessary. Uh, so it's,

00:08:28.220 it's, it's just a, uh, it's, it's a big, uh, it's a shit show. I mean, there's no, there's no other

00:08:33.180 way. It's, it's, it's all of, all of this stuff is, uh, is bad. And, and as I, as I was saying

00:08:38.300 before, um, just comparing what happened in Dallas with the, the, the Kennedy assassination,

00:08:44.160 it's, it's interesting how, when you, when you listen to these politicians, they, they all want

00:08:50.940 to be, you know, Robert F. Kennedy and talk, you know, and hold hands and have group prayers

00:08:58.160 and sing Kumbaya. We've all been wounded last night. And, you know, okay, I get it. You know,

00:09:06.820 I, you know, these things are shocking. We all need a little chicken soup once in a while, but

00:09:12.360 what's, what's so, what's so important about these events is that no one really wants to discuss

00:09:18.560 the nature of them is that, you know, it's, it's like, this wasn't just some, this wasn't

00:09:24.960 a madman. This wasn't just some, uh, you know, crime gone wrong or, or, or some, something

00:09:32.860 like this. This was an ideological, political, and, and racial, racially nationalist act. And

00:09:41.700 it was meant to be perceived that way. It was, it was certainly intended, uh, in those

00:09:46.300 terms explicitly, I'm going to kill white cops as I'm going to kill white people who are

00:09:52.680 symbols of authority, symbols of oppression in their minds. Uh, and this is what sort of,

00:09:57.820 this is what it is about. It is not just some, it's not like a, uh, uh, an outer space meteor

00:10:03.340 hit the planet and we all need to, you know, ask why and hold hands and pray to the gods.

00:10:09.540 It's like, no, we, we know exactly why this happened. Uh, this is a, it's a, it's a racially,

00:10:15.680 ideologically, nationalistically motivated political crime. And yet we, we just can't

00:10:22.700 talk about it. We, we can't talk about it on those terms. Conservatives might want to say,

00:10:27.160 might want to call them racist or something, but we, we don't really want to get at the heart

00:10:31.280 of the matter, which is that, um, you know, this, this country is breaking apart and it's maybe

00:10:37.800 already broken apart and we're just seeing the, the, the symptoms of it all.

00:10:42.560 Have you ever tried to have a conversation with, um, with somebody about race, but they

00:10:48.480 actually have a mixed race children or their daughter has married someone of a different

00:10:53.420 race and they have mixed race grandchildren. If you have the experience in, certainly in my

00:10:58.500 experience, they're beyond reason. They're the very, the very, the very existence of their

00:11:05.300 family and everything they care about is now skewed. They have to, they have to sort

00:11:11.460 of tackle things from the point of view of, of defending their own position. So accepting

00:11:17.680 reality becomes something which is bad for them. So they make every resistance to dealing

00:11:22.820 with it. And I think that that's a microcosm of what you have in multicultural societies where

00:11:27.040 to talk about the fundamental causes of Dallas is really to admit that there is a huge

00:11:34.860 gulf, a fundamental rift in the entire society, which just cannot be fixed in any easy way.

00:11:41.760 It's, it's such an ugly truth to face that nobody has the guts to do it.

00:11:46.660 Hmm. Well, I have not, I've not talked with anyone with multiracial children like that. I, I,

00:11:51.680 I certainly have talked to black people about my ideas and things. I've actually had some

00:11:56.060 long conversations with one, uh, that recently there was a, uh, a black, uh, female journalist

00:12:01.580 who I talked to for about an hour and she wrote a story that was, um, actually fairly, uh, fairly

00:12:07.200 accurate. Um, but I, I, I, you know, look, everyone talks in a different way to a different

00:12:14.520 audience that, that, that's natural. And it's, it's good. You'll, it's, uh, it's not being

00:12:20.500 autistic. You recognize who the other person is and you always try to find common ground with

00:12:24.540 them. So I, I will certainly when I'm talking with a, you know, a person of color, a black person

00:12:31.020 or someone else, I'll talk, you know, I'll talk in a different way. I'll try to find common ground

00:12:36.200 of like, you have an identity. This is what you care about. Well, I care about the same things.

00:12:41.140 We actually have some, some common ground here. Uh, this is where we disagree. This is where we

00:12:47.200 can coexist, but you know, I, I try to be very diplomatic. Um, but I, I, I mean, have you ever

00:12:53.960 talked to someone who has like, let's say a mixed race child or grandchild or, or, or family member

00:13:00.440 that it must be just extremely, you can just see it in their face when you're talking to them.

00:13:05.860 I used to know a guy who was a member of UKIP in the local area and I used to bump into him on the

00:13:10.580 campaign trail at election times. Very nice guy, very sound on a lot of different things. But then when

00:13:16.180 you made the point to him that a nation has a racial element and that racial homogeneity is

00:13:23.400 important for any number of different societal ends, he wouldn't have any of it. And I could

00:13:28.600 not work out why a very rational guy who's very sensible on every other matter could just could

00:13:33.880 not and just seemed like he would put up a brick wall to that one point. And then I found out that

00:13:38.840 his daughter was married to a Nigerian man and that they had, he had a couple of mixed race

00:13:44.040 grandchildren. And after that, it all made sense. And that pattern has been repeated when I've

00:13:48.440 had conversations with people about, um, about racial issues. And I've found a number of different

00:13:54.100 times that the brick wall goes up. They, you know, if you, you can, you can make logical points

00:13:59.500 as much as you like, but it's now against their interests and now their interests are multiculturalism.

00:14:05.260 So they will, they will go for that and they will advocate for that.

00:14:08.060 And it's a microcosm for the nation itself, because to talk about race, why it's so painful

00:14:15.020 is because you are admitting that modern America doesn't work, uh, or modern Britain. I mean,

00:14:22.340 look, we're all, all of these nations, we're basically all in the same boat now. Um, you know,

00:14:27.620 maybe it's central Europe. You can start to reach, uh, you know, let's say East of Germany,

00:14:33.240 you could start to reach nations that really are, um, uh, racially defined and even ethnically

00:14:39.200 defined nations. Um, but, uh, but, but really in terms of Britain and Western Europe, where we're

00:14:45.580 really in the same boat. And, and so to talk about race, you're, you're basically saying that

00:14:49.920 this doesn't work. And as humans, I mean, we're, we are a herd animal at some very deep level.

00:14:57.720 And so we don't, we want to be part of the herd. We, we, we want, we, you don't want to, you don't

00:15:04.620 want to hear that the herd is poison. You know, you, you want to, you want to hear that, oh, the

00:15:09.720 herd's good. You're part of something that's good. You know, it's, it's just a natural tendency for

00:15:14.580 all humans. And so to, to, to say that, no, that this is not going to end well, this is going to end

00:15:20.360 in tears and it might end in blood or, uh, you know, and, and I don't see any other, uh, I don't see any

00:15:27.460 other outcome, to be honest. Uh, maybe it would, maybe it would end in a whimper and not a bang

00:15:31.940 that we just, uh, uh, you know, we just go off into the sunset as a bunch of, uh, morons, uh,

00:15:39.880 watching virtual reality and, you know, updating their Facebook accounts that that's one, uh,

00:15:46.280 rather terrifying option. The idiocracy option. The idiocracy option. Yeah. Uh, but, but I, I think

00:15:53.440 that, that, you know, a lot of signs point that we're not going to end up like that. We're going

00:15:57.780 to, we're going to end up in some really painful, uh, divisive and, and, you know, lacrimose and

00:16:05.180 bloody, uh, situation. Yeah. And, um, and to say that to someone, it's just, it's just painful.

00:16:10.920 It's just not something they want to hear. Um, you know, I, and I, I think that, that, you know,

00:16:16.260 there's obviously there's political correctness, there's cultural Marxism, there's so on.

00:16:19.300 And I get it, but there's another kind of deeper way of, of people don't want to hear that they're

00:16:25.460 part, they're living a lie, that they're part of something, um, that is, uh, that, you know,

00:16:30.360 they're part of a herd that's about to run off a cliff. Yeah. Well, it's, it's something that's

00:16:34.740 been said any number of times that people prefer the comfortable lie to the, uh, the difficult

00:16:38.760 truth. And I suppose the deeper point to that is that in, in regards to things like Dallas,

00:16:43.380 being able to talk about that in any meaningful way means questioning the, the entire narrative.

00:16:49.740 And when you start questioning the entire narrative, you really are, um, being that person

00:16:55.260 that no one really wants to engage with. You're bringing that message that really inevitably leads

00:17:00.320 to, um, the acceptance that we are a herd hitting off a cliff, a cliff, and nobody wants to accept

00:17:06.700 that. So it's incredibly difficult even to, even to get people to think, uh, to think analytically

00:17:12.540 about a very, very complicated issue that's, that's led to something like Dallas.

00:17:16.960 Hmm. Absolutely. Well, let, let's shift gears a little bit. Um, and let, let's talk about

00:17:23.520 Britain. Um, I, I've already done a couple, I've, I've done about three podcasts on Brexit,

00:17:29.080 but, uh, I, I, I'm eager to do more because this, um, this is a major event and I, and I think

00:17:36.760 there are many different angles that we can take on it. And, and I, it's, it's, it's an

00:17:42.340 ongoing event as well. I don't think we fully know what it means yet. Um, exactly. But let's,

00:17:48.920 let's go back a little bit because you have a personal history in British nationalism. I,

00:17:54.380 I, when we first, when we first met, it was 2010 in the winter, 2010. And, um, you were

00:18:02.480 the, uh, uh, bright, uh, young star of the, uh, BNP. Um, uh, I think we met at a rump American

00:18:11.560 Renaissance meeting that American Renaissance conference had been canceled. And, um, so tell

00:18:16.840 us a little bit of just about your own personal history and then, and then we can kind of get

00:18:21.300 into where the right is going. Um, you know, the future of UKIP or if there is a future of UKIP,

00:18:28.040 I don't know. Um, and, uh, but when do you talk just a little bit about your own, your

00:18:33.240 own personal story? Yeah, sure. I, uh, I joined the BNP when I was 18 years old. That was back

00:18:39.280 in 2004 and the BNP really started to, um, to, to, to crop up and, um, be talked about since

00:18:47.220 about 2003. And the party was growing really, really well. We were winning councillors all

00:18:52.640 over the country. We became the official opposition in, uh, in a borough in, uh, the

00:18:58.020 eastern part of greater London. And, uh, obviously the BNP success culminated in the election of

00:19:03.860 two members of the European parliament. Uh, everyone I think knows about that. Um, I've

00:19:08.980 been involved in who was the other person. Yeah. Nick Griffin and Andrew bronze, Andrew

00:19:13.980 bronze. Right. Yeah. And, uh, I, I was involved very heavily. Uh, I threw myself into it very

00:19:20.100 enthusiastically and I campaigned locally. I campaigned, um, for candidates in other areas

00:19:26.420 as well. I've stood for election multiple times myself at local and national level. Uh,

00:19:31.080 interestingly, I was the, uh, I was the election agent for Timothy rate, who was the BNP

00:19:37.460 candidates in the constituency of maidenhead, which is, uh, just on the, just outside of London

00:19:43.940 on the Western side. And the reason that's interesting is because the member of parliament

00:19:48.160 there is Teresa may who, um, people are now starting to hear about, I think outside this

00:19:53.200 country, because she's probably going to be our next prime minister. And I did get to meet

00:20:00.100 her and she had to shake my hand while I was wearing a BNP rosette and the look on her face

00:20:04.760 will, uh, will remain with me forever. Cause she really didn't like it. Really didn't like

00:20:11.420 it at all. She was not a fan of the BNP and actually she's got quite a history of interfering

00:20:16.260 and, uh, trying to, uh, trying to prevent the BNP through sort of Machiavellian tactics.

00:20:21.940 That's very interesting. Um, she, she is a bit of a Machiavelle. The fact that she has benefited

00:20:28.420 from Brexit, even though she opposed Brexit, she, she supported David Cameron and things like that

00:20:33.620 is pretty fascinating. Uh, and it demonstrates that there's something going on there. She's not,

00:20:38.700 she doesn't, she might look like a school marm, but there's something more to her, uh, than that.

00:20:44.520 That's interesting. What were some of the things she did? Uh, well, she's, she's been a member

00:20:49.180 of parliament for a long time. She, she doesn't have any children. So she's very much committed

00:20:53.440 her entire life to her political career. So the fact that she's ambitious enough to want

00:20:58.020 to even stand to become the, uh, leader of the conservative party and therefore the next

00:21:02.280 prime minister isn't really of any great surprise. But in, uh, in, I think 2003, 2004, at the beginning

00:21:09.680 of the time when the BNP was starting to do well, particularly in the North of England,

00:21:13.960 uh, in Burnley, particularly, which is one of these towns, which has had a huge influx of Muslim

00:21:20.100 immigrants from Pakistan, particularly these are sort of old mill towns, um, where they needed in

00:21:26.500 helping in industry. Um, some time back, the BNP started to do very well. And, um, Theresa May was,

00:21:34.800 uh, actively campaigning to have conservative candidates standing in areas where the BNP was

00:21:40.540 standing. And these are in areas where the conservative party would normally not even

00:21:44.580 bother to stand because it was such a labor stronghold, such a working class area that the

00:21:49.880 conservatives just really didn't really have any presence. But what she campaigned to do was to

00:21:54.260 put up paper candidates or to run campaigns there specifically to split the right wing vote

00:21:59.280 and to, um, just to try to keep BNP counselors out. I'd be pretty confident that her maneuvering

00:22:05.960 did actually prevent some BNP candidates from being elected because there was some very, very

00:22:10.860 close run races where we lost out. And after she was doing that, it got, uh, it got back to Nick

00:22:16.940 Griffin. And I understand that Nick Griffin asked Timothy rates to stand in Maidenhead, which is an area

00:22:22.140 that the BNP wouldn't normally tend to stand in because it's a wealthy commuter belt, uh, area of the

00:22:27.760 Royal borough. And, um, we stood a candidate there. The candidate didn't do particularly well,

00:22:32.960 unfortunately, but it was a very, very small campaign. And really it was more of a moral

00:22:37.700 victory because we got the word out and we recruited a lot of people and, um, we made her, uh, very

00:22:43.660 uncomfortable for a period of time. Um, now I, I, the, the thing I really wanted to get for this,

00:22:49.780 um, for this interview was a quote, which I'm sure came from her, but I can't find it and I can't

00:22:55.500 confirm what it was or even if I'm even mistaken, but I believe that she at some point said that the

00:23:02.000 world would be a better place without BNP members in it or something that was very sort of kind of

00:23:09.100 passive aggressive, if you like, or certainly one of those kinds of things where, you know,

00:23:13.980 if you'd said, um, the world would be a better place if insert, you know, minority, uh, minority

00:23:20.800 interest group here wasn't in the world anymore. It would be a headline news that this person was

00:23:26.520 effectively beginning the process of dehumanizing this group and setting people against them.

00:23:31.620 So it was particularly nasty. I can't quite confirm exactly what she said or whether I'm even mistaken,

00:23:37.100 but I'm reasonably confident that something came from her like that. And certainly when,

00:23:42.440 when we stood there, she was one of these people who pretty much went through the, the,

00:23:46.700 the basic motions of getting every single leader of any of every faith group together in, in, to,

00:23:52.200 to unify against hate and to denounce the vile hate candidate and all this kind of stuff. So

00:23:57.820 she certainly has a, has a record of, of, of, of trying to, um, prevent nationalists from getting

00:24:04.180 any kind of political influence. And, um, she certainly hasn't got a very good reputation and is

00:24:09.920 not well liked amongst anyone who, uh, who, who, who we would have any, any political affiliation with.

00:24:15.960 Right. Well, the, the, the dark secret of the Tories and the conservatives of the past 30 years is

00:24:21.560 that they, they want to basically steal the thunder of the quote, far right, in quote. Um,

00:24:28.140 the, you know, there, there's a, this, this famous speech that Margaret Thatcher gave,

00:24:32.140 where she said, we're being, she said, we're being swamped or we're being swarmed.

00:24:36.180 She used a swamp. She used a very vivid language. And, uh, and, and that, that was directed

00:24:41.880 against the national front. Um, you know, certainly the, the Tories, some of the Tories at least

00:24:47.520 wanted to kind of ride the wave of, of nationalist feelings, which, which were behind the Brexit vote,

00:24:52.380 no doubt. Um, but we're, we're going to end up with Theresa May. Uh, I will mention that, uh, I'll,

00:24:58.300 I'll release a little bit of news on this podcast. Um, I've been waiting to see, uh, how best to release

00:25:04.920 this news. But, um, I actually received a personal correspondence from Theresa May, uh, just the other

00:25:11.560 day. And, uh, I, it, it came in this Manila envelope that, um, I still have, it's here in my

00:25:17.640 office. It says something like on her majesty's Britannic service or something. And I was, when I

00:25:24.100 got an envelope like that, I was a, wow, it reminded me of a James Bond film, or I thought maybe I was

00:25:30.480 being invited to meet the queen, which you're being invited to the garden party, which would be, I

00:25:36.140 would expect it. I mean, I, I, yeah, of course. Yeah. I mean, I, I, I, but, uh, no, uh, it was a

00:25:44.280 letter, uh, in which, um, I was, uh, informed that I was banned from the United Kingdom and it was sent

00:25:51.400 to me from the home secretary, Theresa May signed by her. Um, so, uh, it's a pretty, I have to say it's

00:25:59.160 been really shocking for me because, um, as, as I, I've, I've mentioned to you before, I, you know,

00:26:05.320 I, the first time I was in England, um, maybe not the first time, but a very memorable time was when

00:26:11.480 I was, uh, uh, in high school or middle school, I was probably like 12 or 13 years old. I went with

00:26:16.940 my grandparents and my mom and, you know, we did all the touristy stuff and we saw a couple of

00:26:22.840 West End, like theater productions. And then we, we went on a car trip around Northern England. We,

00:26:29.160 went to some places where King Arthur, like the historical King Arthur might've been, I mean,

00:26:33.280 really, really fun stuff. You know, I have a memory, still have the photos and, and I've been to,

00:26:39.600 you know, England many times since then and London and some other places, Scotland. Uh, and, uh,

00:26:45.440 just the idea that I can never return, uh, is just pretty, uh, pretty shocking and, uh, and very sad,

00:26:55.620 to be honest. Uh, um, I, I can only, uh, enter England through, uh, the internet, uh, apparently

00:27:03.000 for the rest of my life, uh, unless there is a dramatic change in, uh, in politics. So it's a,

00:27:09.460 uh, pretty, uh, pretty shocking turn of events. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know what to say really,

00:27:14.080 Richard. I mean, I'm, I'm shocked to hear that news. Uh, I mean, things are bad in many ways over

00:27:19.420 here, but we tend to be a bit less authoritarian with this kind of stuff than say countries like

00:27:25.080 Germany and other places with very, very strict political, uh, political laws. So I am very,

00:27:31.700 very shocked at that. And it really is absolutely appalling. Yeah, it is appalling. I was, I was

00:27:37.760 thinking, you know, just putting yourself in the mindset of someone like Theresa May, uh, where,

00:27:44.240 I mean, for one thing, my name is Richard Spencer, which is about as English as you can get. And,

00:27:50.620 um, you know, when they, when they were describing why they banned me, they were listing all these

00:27:55.680 things. And I actually expected to read some, you know, offhand, uh, you know, thoughtless

00:28:02.600 comments I made on Twitter or something like that. And, you know, these damn immigrants or something.

00:28:08.960 Uh, but no, they actually quoted from public speeches that I've given. And, um, one of them

00:28:16.200 at the traditional Britain group, uh, a few years ago. And, uh, so all of these speeches that I gave,

00:28:22.700 they would quote these paragraphs where I was being, you know, uh, hyper romantic and bombastic

00:28:28.020 about how, you know, in the, in the ashes of the old world, we'll build a new, you know, all this kind

00:28:33.380 of, uh, heady stuff. And, uh, I don't know how anyone could conceivably find that to be, uh,

00:28:40.740 inciting violence or, or, uh, you know, or the equivalent of violence or whatever they think it

00:28:45.680 is. Uh, so I, I, I do kind of wonder, you know, do they, do they blush a little bit when they do this

00:28:52.620 or, or, or no, do they, are they actually immensely self-satisfied? Do they, do they think they're

00:28:58.980 actually accomplishing something? Like, do they think that this it's, it's bad, but it must be done?

00:29:03.380 What, what do you, I don't know the answer to that question. What, what do you think is kind

00:29:08.000 of going through their minds when a, a, a white person like Theresa May is banning a, a, you know,

00:29:15.320 a, an Englishman abroad, you know, I'm, my name is Richard Spencer after all, they're, they're banning

00:29:20.400 someone for speaking for, literally for ideas because they don't actually even accuse me of doing

00:29:27.460 anything violent or, or untoward or illegal. It's pure ideas. Like what, what is, what is going

00:29:33.300 to their mind when they do that? Well, uh, I can only guess, but I'd say if, if we had a labor

00:29:39.340 government, particularly a sort of Tony Blair, Blairite government, I'd say any home secretary

00:29:44.360 would probably rub their hands with glee at the idea of banning Richard Spencer. In fact, they,

00:29:49.380 I'm sure they'd rub their hands with glee if they could ban everybody with any kind of waspish

00:29:54.200 sounding name from ever coming into the country. If your name isn't Mohammed, uh, they, they don't want

00:29:58.920 you, Richard, but we've got a conservative or so-called conservative government and Theresa May

00:30:04.760 being home secretary is supposed to be a relatively right wing traditional conservative. The only thing

00:30:11.560 I can really think is that these people are, they're like office bureaucrats. They're filling

00:30:15.840 out paperwork. I, I doubt they had any emotional feeling at all about, about this. And I would,

00:30:21.860 I would say that, um, they're probably having to balance the, uh, to balance the, uh, the scales

00:30:29.100 here because they're probably having to ban any number of different people called Mohammed from

00:30:33.700 entering the country and plenty of other non-waspy foreigners. So for every, for every person they

00:30:39.920 have to ban from coming into the country, uh, for being a, uh, an Islamic radical or for training

00:30:44.800 in Syria or God knows what else they might be getting up to, to, to trigger the warnings in the home

00:30:49.280 office. For every one of those, they probably have to pick on someone like you. And then, uh,

00:30:55.080 and then they get to go around to, uh, to the lobby groups, the, uh, the minority lobby groups,

00:31:00.300 I'd say particularly the Muslim lobby groups, which are growing very strongly in this country.

00:31:04.840 They can say, we ban Richard Spencer. Hmm. Yeah. That's another, you know, unintended consequence

00:31:11.320 or intended consequence, I guess. I think to, to, to keep the peace in a, in a country where there

00:31:16.840 is such huge rifts, such a divided country, we inevitably suffer injustices like this because

00:31:24.240 there is always this need to, to show all of these minority groups who must be kept in check

00:31:30.940 to save the peace that they are not being victimized. They are not being picked upon.

00:31:35.220 And the government have these really solid examples of other groups of nationalistic groups of, um,

00:31:41.380 people who advocate for the interests of European descended peoples and be able to say, look,

00:31:47.940 we're being even handed here. We're not just picking on you. Yeah. Yeah. Well, let's, uh,

00:31:53.920 enough about me. Let's, uh, let's talk a little bit more about, um, British nationalism and,

00:31:59.140 and the future of it. Uh, what, so talk, talk about the, the fall of the BNP. I, I think we can,

00:32:07.720 we could probably pronounce its death at this point. It's not, um, it still exists, but it is,

00:32:15.560 um, not really going anywhere and it's, it's heavily demoralized. So what do you think was a

00:32:21.140 turning point in this? Um, you know, a lot of people point to the question time performance by

00:32:27.740 Nick Griffin, uh, which was in 2009, was it? Or, or 2000, 2010, but what do you, but that might've

00:32:35.140 just been a symptom of a, of a deeper decay? What, what do you think set off the decline and

00:32:40.160 things like that? Well, it's a very complicated subject, but I did hear your podcast with Adrian

00:32:46.560 Davis and I'm, I know you made that point about question time. And I do think that is very much

00:32:50.940 the, uh, the key turning point. If there is one, I think at that point, Nick Griffin went from being,

00:32:56.680 uh, a guy who is kept away from the media. He's not given a chance. He's unfairly treated. He's got

00:33:02.680 something to say to being the guy who had his chance and blew it. And I think in, in people's

00:33:09.940 mind, there was a lot of hope and it was all seen as potential and a growing party. And suddenly we'd

00:33:15.580 burst into the mainstream. And in a way you could say the BNP was destroyed by its own success,

00:33:22.120 but I suppose more fundamentally, it was about the, uh, the level of talent of Nick Griffin and the

00:33:27.860 people around him. And I suppose all of us really in the, in the BNP, uh, the, the, the level of,

00:33:32.760 of, of talent that the BNP could, uh, attract was, was never particularly high and it had a way of

00:33:38.000 alienating and, uh, and driving away people and, uh, also ruining lives of people that came into it

00:33:43.340 because of the, uh, the very unfriendly circumstances in, in this country and in, and in others that you

00:33:48.480 know very well about. Um, but the BNP is certainly a spent force and is no longer relevant to politics in

00:33:56.060 this country. I don't think there's any point in, uh, in, in expecting it to ever achieve anything

00:34:00.900 ever again, really. So it's a very sad situation. Um, I suppose a lot of us want to pick a side and

00:34:06.640 therefore we've, um, we've taken in more of an interest in, in UKIP. And I think Farage has,

00:34:11.840 uh, has warmed on people if you like. Um, but he's a very talented person. I mean, he, he's very

00:34:18.580 talented. He made some, he's made some errors like this, this, um, uh, um, uh, announcing that the,

00:34:24.940 the Brexit vote, he'd lost the Brexit vote. I, that, that was a bizarre. I don't know why he did

00:34:30.360 that, but he's never seen anyone do that before. That was strange, but, but he kind of, he, he

00:34:35.820 survived it. So he's made some mistakes, but, uh, even though I'm critical of Nigel Farage, he is a

00:34:42.060 very compelling person. Like I would, I would want to talk with Nigel Farage. He, he, he has something

00:34:48.420 to say he has a perspective, uh, you know, clearly charismatic and funny, uh, person. Uh, so, so he,

00:34:57.680 he definitely has that going for him. Um, it is this interesting thing where, you know, you have

00:35:03.200 this, it's, it's, it's, there's probably a real direct correlation, just this decline of the BNP

00:35:08.960 and then the, the, the rise of UKIP, um, where I don't, do you think that a lot of the same voters

00:35:15.940 were just switching parties? Uh, even though the BNP was probably going after more of a working

00:35:20.820 class, uh, type voter, uh, and that the UKIP was not going afterward, at least theoretically. I mean,

00:35:27.900 that, that was a kind of neo Thatcherite liberal, you know, neoliberal, you know, capitalism first

00:35:34.280 type thing. Uh, but, but, but I, I would just presume that, that a lot of the BNP working class

00:35:41.180 voters were switching allegiances to this Thatcherite party. Um, uh, so, so do you think

00:35:47.880 that's where it was, where being, being anti EU was a kind of metaphor for being nationalistic

00:35:54.660 as opposed to being directly nationalistic? Yeah. I, I think, I think in many ways,

00:36:00.240 the fact that UKIP's primary objective is not anything to do with immigration or anything that's

00:36:07.840 loosely related to race was, uh, I think what was the way we described it in the BNP and the way we

00:36:13.860 used to talk about things was it was a reputational shield and other political parties in Europe have

00:36:19.580 this as well. So if you look, for example, at the, uh, the Flemish nationalist party, which is now

00:36:24.080 called the Vlaams Belang, their primary, uh, the thing they're primarily known for in Belgium isn't

00:36:30.960 their policies on immigration. It's that they are separatists. They want a separate state for the

00:36:36.580 Flemings. And there are any number of parties in Europe who have done very, very well, who have

00:36:42.620 done so with this reputational shield. They have a, uh, another subject, which they really hammer on

00:36:48.500 much more than they do immigration, but immigration is, is their secondary, uh, secondary area of

00:36:53.960 interest. So I think UKIP did benefit from that in some ways, although it's very strange. If you look

00:36:59.680 back to the time when I joined the BNP, UKIP already had many different members of the European

00:37:05.400 Parliament elected, and they already did well in the Euro elections, which happened every five years.

00:37:11.280 Ironically.

00:37:12.220 Yeah. Yeah. Ironically, as you say, uh, and now they're all out of a job.

00:37:17.460 They voted themselves out of a job.

00:37:20.160 That's actually worth talking about actually the whole, uh, what's the future there. But, um, in, in,

00:37:24.880 in regards to the, to the BNP in, in election after election, local level and at national level,

00:37:30.460 the BNP used to get a lot more votes than UKIP. And, um, we, I remember seeing a stat that our

00:37:35.920 guys did and it showed that UKIP was having to pay this enormous amount of money for every vote

00:37:42.320 that they want. And the BNP was spending this minuscule amount of money for the votes they got.

00:37:47.860 But the, the, the UKIP voters of today certainly are far higher than the BNP voters of five,

00:37:56.480 10 years ago. So this isn't simply a case of BNP voters switching, although I'm sure that

00:38:01.800 BNP voters of the past, no longer with a BNP candidate to vote for, will almost certainly

00:38:06.880 be voting for the UKIP candidates. It's, it's really something that's far more significant

00:38:11.980 because people are really starting to, uh, to, to drop the main political parties and

00:38:17.820 base of support that UKIP has is far larger than what the BNP had, even at its height.

00:38:24.680 Right. But, but there is this strange self liquidating aspect to, to UKIP where,

00:38:31.920 you know, Nigel Farage, and it really was a 20 year anniversary. I think wasn't UKIP founded in

00:38:37.800 1997 or 1998 or something like that. Um, I thought it might've been older than that. I think it might

00:38:43.340 be early nineties. Oh, early nineties. Okay. Well, there was another party I think called the

00:38:47.280 referendum party that existed. Anyway, it's, you know, this is all technical history. Um,

00:38:53.700 but anyway, he, he's been on this crusade and he won effectively and he voted himself out of

00:39:02.060 parliament and, uh, and he voted himself out of the European parliament, which is, you know,

00:39:07.460 again, ironically, one of the few places where, um, the, uh, people who, who are associated with

00:39:12.740 the Flemish bloc, um, uh, Philippe Claes, uh, well, Philippe Claes, but, uh, uh, Philippe de Winter,

00:39:18.440 Philippe de Winter and, and others, uh, they, they've, they've had more success in the European

00:39:24.020 parliament, even though they speak out against the EU constantly, but UKIP has voted themselves

00:39:29.260 effectively out of a job. And I, I, I think there is this question of what, what happens because,

00:39:35.940 I mean, Nigel, Nigel Farage resigned and, um, who was his rival who tweeted a, a smiley face with

00:39:43.900 sunglasses when that, when that happened? Douglas Carswell. Douglas Carswell. Yeah, he's a very

00:39:47.920 strange man. And he explicitly said that, you know, he was offended by the, uh, the, the anti-refugee

00:39:56.460 poster that the UKIP used, that this is, this isn't about immigration, even though the voters,

00:40:03.260 it was for the voter, it was 100% about immigration, but, you know, but he, for the,

00:40:08.220 for the leaders, oh, it wasn't at all about immigration. It's about all these arcane

00:40:11.640 regulations that Brussels, Brussels issues and so on. And, and then also you, you have even the

00:40:18.540 Tories who, um, you know, there, there was a shakeup there and you get someone who might in the

00:40:23.660 person of Theresa May, who might conceivably be worse than David Cameron, if that's possible.

00:40:28.120 And it's, it's just this, it's, it's, it's this kind of terrible, but in a way, very predictable

00:40:34.260 aspect of, of, of you could say metaphorical nationalism where, you know, these, these so-called

00:40:42.060 conservative or libertarian leaders will use nationalist energies and use the nationalist

00:40:49.360 voting block, but for their own ends. Um, you know, the Daniel Hannon is another one, this,

00:40:54.800 this journalist and writer, uh, just saying some of the most appalling things, you know,

00:41:00.040 we, we, we want to get away from Europe. That's the old world. We want to, we want to link up with

00:41:04.860 India and, you know, South Asia for our great English speaking capitalist brothers. You know,

00:41:12.720 it's just, it's just terrible nonsense. And, uh, it's agony to listen to. It really is.

00:41:19.160 So it's like, this seems to be, there's, there's just, I don't know. I, I guess I should probably

00:41:24.140 write an article about this. There, there, there seems to be this almost kind of self liquidating

00:41:28.420 aspect to, to certain nationalisms where if we don't talk about the real thing, the real dope,

00:41:34.400 and we just talk about getting out of the EU, we, we, we end up getting out of the EU and not,

00:41:41.580 not, not, not really changing anything. So, uh, uh, well, you could see many positive things in,

00:41:48.360 in the Brexit vote. And I certainly voted for, uh, to leave. And I think this is a great

00:41:54.260 opportunity, but I think you've said it quite well, really, that this is an opportunity to,

00:41:57.740 uh, to take back control of what we're doing. And, uh, it gives hope to people who, who thought

00:42:03.300 that you just could not do anything about the direction that we were going in towards complete

00:42:07.440 globalism and consumer capitalism. But really it's an option to, to take back the, uh, the controls

00:42:14.020 on a, on a, on a vehicle that's careening, uh, towards the cliff. And, um, our next leader could

00:42:21.340 either decide to, uh, to, to rest controls, uh, and steer us further away from the, uh, inevitable

00:42:28.120 doom, or they could decide to just go full throttle and carry on towards it. And I think

00:42:32.600 Theresa May would be one of those people who will, uh, will, will just, uh, pedal to the metal,

00:42:38.200 as you say. Uh, that is, uh, quite terrible. Uh, what, what do you think? I mean, I know we

00:42:47.020 don't, we don't quite know, but do you think UKIP will be destroyed by its success or, or,

00:42:54.000 and all this energy is going to flow into the Tories?

00:42:57.720 I, to, to be honest, I, uh, I've had this kind of conversation with some people and I, I even

00:43:03.680 considered joining the conservative party because I think the fact that UKIP have grown

00:43:07.720 to, to, to the point that they have where they're really able to be a quite an effective

00:43:11.700 pressure group on the conservative party, I think really what will inevitably happen and

00:43:17.520 what will have to happen is that the conservatives will have to take back some of that support

00:43:22.280 from UKIP. And the only way they can do that is to, uh, is to have someone come along and

00:43:27.720 say, at least say things about stopping immigration. But of course we know the history there, Margaret

00:43:33.540 Thatcher said kind of that she was going to stop immigration and therefore everyone

00:43:37.640 left the national front vote and voted for her. And then nothing was ever done about

00:43:41.620 it. However, what we could potentially see, I think is, is, is someone who is rather more

00:43:46.960 a, uh, uh, a rebel come up through the conservative party. And I think actually that Andrea leads

00:43:52.780 them, who is the, uh, the only person now who can stop Theresa May from becoming the next

00:43:57.140 prime minister is in with a fighting chance. And she is very much an outsider. She's got the

00:44:01.940 support of a number of different, uh, members of parliament who I do actually think a lot

00:44:06.640 of. There's a local member of parliament to me called Steve Baker, who almost no one's

00:44:11.560 ever heard of, but Steve Baker, uh, he is a very, he's very keen on monetary reform. He,

00:44:17.920 he hosted the, uh, the first debate in parliament on the subject of money being created as debt

00:44:23.240 and the entire fiat money system. And he, he brought that into, into parliament for the

00:44:27.480 first time to be debated in over a hundred years. And, uh, he, he's a guy who I think

00:44:32.880 is, is immensely genuine and would be a great, a great leader of the future. He is one of

00:44:38.360 her key supporters. And, uh, that to me really symbols, uh, symbolizes something good.

00:44:43.500 Leedsum was, was firmly, uh, in favor of Brexit. She's got a number of other very politically

00:44:48.100 incorrect, uh, opinions on things like fox hunting, gay marriage. I think that although,

00:44:54.120 although about two thirds of the conservative MPs backed Theresa May, uh, and only one third

00:45:01.660 backed Andrea Leedsum, I think that the Tory membership are far more conservative as is

00:45:06.680 always the case than the representatives. And what happens now at this next stage of the

00:45:11.180 leadership contest is it goes to a vote of the members. And I think that the members

00:45:15.580 will be much more favorable towards, um, towards Andrea Leedsum than the MPs are. So although,

00:45:22.560 you know, Andrea Leedsum certainly is still a, uh, a conservative in, in, in all the bad

00:45:27.580 ways and in many respects, I certainly think that there is some hope there. And I think

00:45:31.580 that she will, uh, ride the tide that has been created by UKIP as a pressure group and

00:45:37.640 from the leave EU campaign. I honestly don't think that UKIP is, is going to, is going to

00:45:43.860 really ever get to a position where it's going to take control of the government. And I think

00:45:47.980 that that's because of the people who, who, who are in UKIP. And I think Adrian said this,

00:45:52.940 even UKIP being far more respectable than the BNP ever was, if you want to use that word,

00:45:57.620 it just doesn't seem to have that talent base. Um, Douglas Carswell, I thought was one of the,

00:46:02.880 the better people, um, in UKIP and he's gone on to show he's, he's completely unable to get on with

00:46:07.920 others and that his motivations seem to be at completely at odds with, with the entire basis

00:46:12.880 of UKIP aside from leaving the EU. So honestly, I think that, that, that the UKIP is really made

00:46:20.580 up of its MEPs. It had a large number of MEPs more than any other party in the European parliament

00:46:26.960 from our last elections. In fact, UKIP actually for the first time in the history of Britain,

00:46:32.660 they won a national level election. Uh, it was the first time that a party that wasn't the

00:46:37.840 conservative party, the labor party, or the old liberal party that doesn't exist anymore,

00:46:41.720 won a national level election. So it was really quite radical back a couple of years ago.

00:46:46.920 Um, now they voted themselves out of business and, uh, all of these people are going to have

00:46:51.020 to go and find jobs or something. So who knows what's going to happen, but I honestly don't think

00:46:55.700 that UKIP are going to survive this particularly well. I think the only way they could have survived

00:47:00.560 this is if Nigel Farage remained his leader. Really UKIP is made up of its MEPs and Nigel Farage

00:47:08.920 particularly. So quite frankly, I don't have a great deal of hope for UKIP.

00:47:12.620 Why did Nigel, uh, pull out? It's looking at it from afar. It just seems inexplicable.

00:47:20.220 Well, I think that he's, uh, he's been involved for so long. He's, he's had a very long career in,

00:47:26.120 in politics. He's probably just got, he's burned himself out. I think, uh, he's, he's very much a

00:47:32.520 one man force. Uh, he's been receiving a greater amount of death threats and he has to be followed

00:47:38.440 around by probably more security than the prime minister does. He's, uh, there's a lot of very,

00:47:44.380 very, um, very violently minded left wing types, liberals, violent liberals who absolutely hate him.

00:47:54.080 And, uh, the environment in this country is a bit like with Donald Trump where these people feel that

00:47:59.760 it's, it's a legitimate thing to try and attack someone like that. You know, you saw actually

00:48:04.620 it was an English guy comes all the way from England to try to assassinate Donald Trump at a

00:48:08.600 rally. And I completely think that if Nigel Farage was ready to, to get into, into the,

00:48:14.300 into the Westminster parliament and UKIP was to grow further, I really think that he would be in danger

00:48:19.920 of these kind of lone wolf attacks from people who have been whipped into this sort of moral frenzy

00:48:25.160 that, uh, the idea that, that UKIP are going to get into government is going to be the end of the

00:48:29.260 world and sky is going to fall in. Uh, and you know, all of this kind of rhetoric has come from

00:48:34.140 the very top. Even David Cameron has been talking about how if we vote to leave the EU, it's going

00:48:39.300 to be like world war three, the sky is going to fall in. All of us are going to starve to death. You

00:48:43.120 know, this is, this was how the campaign was fought over here. And Nigel Farage is seen as the

00:48:47.740 harbinger of doom. I don't think he wants that anymore. Yeah. I, I completely understand that.

00:48:53.920 Um, that, that is, uh, that, you know, that, that's in a way sad, uh, that people don't want to be

00:49:00.500 involved in, in politics like that. Um, you know, uh, you know, I, it's also just the, the personal

00:49:07.600 scrutiny that a politician can undergo. I mean, just some little mistake you make in life or what have

00:49:15.880 you, you know, some, uh, you know, indiscretion or a sexual affair or something like that. The idea of

00:49:21.480 all these things being broadcast is, is pretty terrifying. Uh, you know, everyone's made mistakes.

00:49:26.760 Uh, it's, it's, you know, it's a, it's a very, uh, dirty business. Um, why did it, I've, I've read a

00:49:35.600 few articles on this, but why did Boris Johnson pull out? I thought he was poised to take advantage

00:49:42.800 of the situation and he seemed wildly ambitious. Oh yeah. Yeah. I, I have no, I have no doubt that

00:49:51.700 Boris Johnson is very ambitious. And, uh, as, uh, as Adrian said in your interview, I have no doubt

00:49:58.140 that he has the, the utmost confidence that, uh, that he believes that the right thing for the

00:50:02.740 country is for him to be prime minister. I honestly don't know quite why, uh, why he didn't stand. I

00:50:08.460 think if he had stood, he'd have done very, very well. And being a, uh, uh, one of the key faces

00:50:14.480 of the Brexit vote, I think he would have done particularly well when it comes to this second

00:50:18.380 stage. I think if it was Boris versus Theresa May, I think Boris would be very much the favorite to

00:50:23.340 win. Honestly, I have no idea. There must be something else. I, I just, when some, when you

00:50:28.820 can't explain something, there must be some other factor in that. Cause it, we, it's not like he lost

00:50:34.020 his ambition or where I've heard things about this, uh, what is it? Grove person who was his

00:50:38.660 client or his, his patron and then kind of turned on him and so on. But I imagine there's some

00:50:44.380 skeleton in his closet or, um, yeah, I I'd imagine he's exactly the kind of guy who would have

00:50:49.680 skeletons in his closet. So maybe literally skeletons. And yeah, maybe, you know, you never

00:50:55.760 know when to eat and so, you know, uh, he's, uh, he's, he's part of the elite, right? Yes. Uh,

00:51:02.180 getting blowjobs from dead pigs or something. Oh yeah. I'm, I'm sure. I mean, he was in that.

00:51:08.260 I'm glad I didn't go to Eden. Well, the, the, the club, the club with the, uh, with the pigs

00:51:14.680 ceremony, I believe wasn't eaten. It was actually, uh, I think it was the, the Bloomington club,

00:51:19.360 which is an Oxford drinking club, but Boris Johnson was in that as well. Uh, you've probably seen the

00:51:24.820 famous photograph, David Cameron, Boris Johnson and George Osborne, the chancellor all dressed up in

00:51:30.300 their, in their fancy clothes, going to a, a Bullington club dinner. Yes. Looking, uh, excessively

00:51:36.700 smug. Oh yes. Incredibly self-satisfied. Yeah. It kind of makes you want to kind of makes you want

00:51:47.840 to punch them in the face or maybe a little bit more. Uh, so what's, uh, what's going on in,

00:51:56.520 in, in Britain, in terms of, you could say the, the alt right. I mean, what, cause I, I think that

00:52:04.420 is, uh, you know, if politicians are going to just continually betray us and, and I think Brexit

00:52:12.300 has clearly been betrayed. I mean, I, you know, who knows, maybe this will launch something that I'm

00:52:18.500 not seeing, but it just looks like it's just this really predictable, conservative betrayal of

00:52:25.920 nationalist voters where they vote for one thing and the, their leaders give them the something

00:52:32.140 else, maybe even the exact opposite. Uh, but, but what, what's going on in terms of, um, in terms of

00:52:39.640 the alternative, right, you could say, and in Britain in terms of groups and, and things like that.

00:52:46.460 Well, I think that going back to the times when I first came over to Amron and we first met back in

00:52:52.240 those days, everyone wanted to hear about what was going on in this country with the BNP and

00:52:57.300 nationalist politics in Europe, because there was just nothing going on in America apart from the

00:53:01.560 occasional Amron conference and a couple of good websites like alternative rights and that kind of

00:53:06.520 stuff at the time. And I think things really have flipped. There is very, very little to tell you,

00:53:12.520 uh, of, of alt right things that are going on in this country. I think we're far behind

00:53:17.020 you guys. Um, I think that you've got a, a much stronger sort of an intellectual, uh, output,

00:53:25.000 uh, over there. You've got many, many more excellent writers. You've got the proliferation

00:53:30.040 of websites and podcasts and cultural, cultural space. And I really think that, um, that we will

00:53:37.720 probably be able to ride on the coattails of that because we share the same language. I do bump into

00:53:42.360 people, um, who I would never have expected to be listening to podcasts, say on TRS or the Radix

00:53:50.100 podcasts or, or tuning into, um, to Jared Taylor on YouTube. And it is starting to spread, but there

00:53:57.720 isn't really any, um, there isn't really anything much springing up over here. I don't think at the

00:54:02.800 moment we're very much, um, plugging into what's going on over in the States.

00:54:07.700 Hmm. It's an interesting phenomenon that when you don't have a political outlet, it does inspire

00:54:16.060 perhaps greater intellectual activity. And in America, we haven't really had a political outlet.

00:54:22.400 Um, I, I think it's, you know, the, there are certainly people who think that we can play ball

00:54:29.380 with Republicans or something, but I, I think those people are a bit delusional. Um, but in this

00:54:34.840 interesting case that the Trump movement has really inspired a lot of, uh, things. So it's,

00:54:40.160 it's, it's maybe, it's maybe kind of contradicts my, my earlier thing. This, I guess what I was

00:54:46.280 thinking is that when you don't have any kind of political outlet, it might inspire you to, uh,

00:54:51.500 engage in, in that all important intellectual and cultural discourse and, and building of a

00:54:57.880 cultural space as you called it. And, uh, in some sense, when you have a political outlet,

00:55:02.740 you, you, you're, you're a little too political and, you know, you're thinking about winning

00:55:07.500 elections or how you're going to, uh, you know, talk to the person in, um, Nebraska or,

00:55:13.280 or some English village. And, you know, you're not going to send that person a, a Radix article

00:55:18.920 that they, they would probably be confused and, you know, things like that. You, uh, you know,

00:55:25.160 so you, you want to speak to them where they are. I mean, that, that's what a politician does,

00:55:30.300 but there, that, and that's fine and that's good in its own sphere, but there, there are

00:55:34.960 obvious limits to that. You, you, you can't always just speak to where people are. You,

00:55:39.860 you have to speak to different people and you have to kind of speak to where you hope they will be.

00:55:44.240 Um, so, and I, and I think that is, that is something that in, in America we have, we have done,

00:55:49.260 I think maybe because we've benefited from being in the wilderness, but, um, that's changed.

00:55:54.260 I think you have, go ahead. We, we, we had, we, we had all of our eggs in one basket and that basket

00:55:59.380 was the BNP and nothing, nothing is more addictive than succeeding. And when you can have a tan,

00:56:06.080 a tangible, real victory, like, uh, someone, you know, becomes an elected representative of some

00:56:11.920 kind in a local area or in a national area, you really do feel as though you're on top of the

00:56:17.040 world and we're always chasing the next success. But in the end, these things are transitory and,

00:56:22.240 and another election comes along and there's a bit of a dip in support and you, and you lose it.

00:56:27.180 And because all of our eggs were in that one basket, there was a huge, huge dip in morale.

00:56:32.200 And I think a lot of those people have, um, come along, they've become political campaigners.

00:56:37.060 They've got disillusioned and burned themselves out and been disappointed and let down.

00:56:41.800 And, uh, they've gone back to get on with their, their normie lives to a certain degree.

00:56:46.460 And I think that what you've benefited from over there in a way is, is not having all your eggs in one

00:56:51.520 basket and being forced to, to create an alternative space and an alternative cultural

00:56:58.120 phenomena, which is far more advanced over there than it is over here. But I think we can benefit

00:57:03.980 from it. Now, I think it is incredibly important to, to give people a way of being involved in,

00:57:08.780 in what we're doing without having to give them a load of leaflets to give to people or

00:57:13.880 just force them to stand in an election. I think we've always set the hurdle too high that the barrier

00:57:19.660 to entry for our movement was always quite high. You had to be very, very bold and very,

00:57:24.240 uh, very fearless and have, have nothing to lose or be very, very, uh, independent, uh,

00:57:29.640 economically, particularly to be involved. Whereas to be involved in the, in the right in the,

00:57:34.440 in the capacity in which it's been born in America more recently, it just means, um, you have to have a

00:57:39.760 really cool sounding alias and, uh, be on the right forums and start creating your own YouTube

00:57:45.760 channel and speaking and, or, or making, uh, making, making up your own music or doing karaoke

00:57:52.540 to, uh, to other stuff and, and, and having fun and having fun and creating cultural content and

00:57:58.560 all of these different things that have sprung out of it is I think, um, a far more living,

00:58:03.180 breathing, um, organic thing than just trying constantly to win an election. So I'm really,

00:58:10.140 really favorable about the things that are going on over there. And I just hope that it does,

00:58:13.200 it does spark things over here. And I am starting to see people who are doing musical things and

00:58:18.600 cultural things. And, and we have these things, uh, legion martial arts camps where we, um, we go

00:58:23.560 off and we do martial arts things and we, we do survival techniques and we just get back to nature

00:58:28.340 and form bodily bonds and stuff. I think that's the way that we're going to do this. I think if we

00:58:34.620 allow ourselves to get, to get drawn down into the mundane all the time, I don't think that that's

00:58:41.060 where we're going to find victory. But I think you can ride the coattails of a phenomenon like

00:58:45.240 Donald Trump. And I think there's a huge opportunity to recruit people, but I don't

00:58:49.220 think their vote is particularly important. Obviously I hope they vote for Trump and I hope

00:58:53.160 that Trump is the next, is the next president. That'd be a great thing. But I think really the

00:58:57.760 important thing is here is to capitalize on the opportunity to recruit people into our new

00:59:02.740 culture, our new sub society, this alternative society that, that is the going to be the,

00:59:08.660 the body of people from which something political can come. Whereas what we've always been trying

00:59:13.680 to do over in Britain here is, is to, is to, is to put the cart before the horse is to try and take

00:59:19.700 control of a government when actually the people aren't really ready for it. What we're doing,

00:59:24.700 I think over with your right is to create a community from which a political change can come.

00:59:30.040 Well, I, I totally agree. However, um, for me to ever visit England again, uh, we will need,

00:59:38.800 uh, some people in government. Yes, that's true. So, uh, I'll work on that one. Thanks. Uh, don't,

00:59:47.060 don't tweet too much. Uh, but maybe I shouldn't leave the country. I might not be let back in.

00:59:52.480 Ah, well, you know, that, this is another thing. Maybe, maybe we should just end on this prospect,

00:59:57.940 um, which is that, um, none of us, none of us have experienced, uh, something like the Soviet Union.

01:00:05.940 Uh, none of us have experienced the, the, the, the life that was, um, discussed in, in George Orwell's

01:00:13.580 1984. Uh, we, the, the world we've lived in has been a very, one of soft power and it has been very

01:00:21.780 soft. Um, you know, Teresa May has not thrown me in jail. Uh, you know, Victor Orban put me in jail

01:00:28.680 for a weekend, but that was, that was an interesting experience. I'm glad it happened, but I never feared

01:00:33.840 for my life. Uh, we've lived in a soft totalitarianism, you could say. Uh, but I, I wouldn't

01:00:41.280 be surprised if it doesn't start to get hard at some point because it's, you know, these things

01:00:48.760 are cracking up and I, I, Dallas was an extreme example of this, but, uh, the, you know, these,

01:00:58.080 this is not, this, this isn't going to end well, as we talked about before. And in, maybe in order to

01:01:06.420 perpetuate liberalism, the liberal elites are going to have to start to get hard. And

01:01:11.240 they're not just going to, you know, not allow in an American citizen. Cause you know,

01:01:15.980 a foreign, foreign citizen has effectively no rights to enter a country. I get that,

01:01:21.040 but that they actually might start taking away the rights of citizens who are law abiding, but

01:01:26.400 think dangerous thoughts. And I, I hate to be, I don't, I don't want to depress you or scare you.

01:01:31.400 It's not my intention. I'm just being realistic about what might happen.

01:01:34.060 Hmm. Yeah, I, I, I can't, uh, I can't rule that out completely. I think actually the, uh, the,

01:01:41.860 what the elites have shown is that their ability to use soft, um, soft persuasive measures is

01:01:49.020 incredibly effective. And, um, I think that what the Soviet union shows is that in, in, in, in,

01:01:55.700 if you use hard, um, if you use hard measures, uh, you make people aware of what's going on. And if

01:02:02.600 there's, if there's a member of the stars in a, in a, in a, in a black suit on the street corner

01:02:06.800 with a gun, you know, you're being oppressed. So this could go, this could go several ways,

01:02:12.980 but if it does get sufficiently hard, it could be that they overplay their hand and people begin to,

01:02:18.960 um, become much more aware of what's going on. So, um, let's just hope that that's, that's the

01:02:24.620 way it happens and that they do decide to, um, to become harder and harder on people, uh, people

01:02:29.400 like us with dissenting opinions, hopefully that we can take advantage of it.

01:02:33.080 Yeah, I agree. I think that is the, absolutely the best outlook, uh, which is that it makes,

01:02:39.140 it makes things more clear. And, uh, you know, even the Soviet union wasn't the Soviet union after a

01:02:44.900 while, you know, the Stalinism burnt itself out. You, you, you can't perpetuate something like that.

01:02:49.780 You know, the latter Soviet union, not, not saying it was a ideal society by any stretch of the

01:02:55.940 imagination, but it, they, they weren't just, you know, shooting, shooting newspaper editors and

01:03:02.760 left and right. And, you know, things like that. There's a tremendous amount of surveillance,

01:03:06.440 uh, to be sure. But, um, but it was not the, you know, Stalinist caricature that, that some people

01:03:12.940 thought of. Um, but I, I, and, and clear, as you say, you're absolutely correct that, uh, the, uh,

01:03:18.200 kind of Americanism has been more effective. Uh, soft totalitarianism has been more effective than

01:03:23.940 hard. Um, but it's almost by the nature of the game, they're going to have to become harder

01:03:28.180 in their totalitarianism. And in a way that is good for us, because it makes things clear.

01:03:33.280 Um, it's, it's not just about, Oh, how could you hold that opinion? That that's so crazy

01:03:38.120 kind of thing. It's, it's more like, why are they arresting bloggers?

01:03:45.360 And I think that will kind of give a, maybe a few light bulbs will go off in people's minds when

01:03:51.140 that starts happening. I'm thinking of the, isn't there a sort of a cultural trope that

01:03:55.420 you see in a lot of horror films where you're, um, you know, the, uh, the, the, the figure

01:03:59.760 of horror in, in the movie is, uh, someone like, um, um, on Nightmare on Elm Street, is

01:04:05.480 it Freddy Krueger? Yes. And, uh, he, he comes after you in your sleep and you can't do anything

01:04:09.840 about it, but, um, you have to, you have to bring him into the, into the real world before

01:04:14.620 you can kill him. And, uh, you know, if there's a ghost or something haunting, you have

01:04:18.880 to sort of corporealize it. You have to crystallize the enemy so that you can attack him. And, uh,

01:04:23.780 if our enemies are going to, to crystallize themselves and corporealize themselves in

01:04:27.940 front of us as an enemy, as you say, that could be the, uh, the clarifying moment that

01:04:32.660 could, could lead to something new.

01:04:35.140 This is a brilliant analysis, Matthew. This, I'm, this is, this is like a real radix type,

01:04:41.120 uh, perspective on, on things. I, I totally agree that that is how, I think that's, that's

01:04:47.020 how you defeat Freddy is, is you, uh, you, you bring him into the real world and you,

01:04:52.060 you confront him. Um, but it, it is, it is also interesting where that there's a, you

01:04:56.880 know, a ghost is worse than a real person. You, you can kill a person, but you can't really

01:05:00.960 kill Freddy cause he's in your mind. Um, but it, you know, when, once they're out of our

01:05:06.240 minds and we, and it becomes clear, then we can deal with them. It's a nightmare on Elm

01:05:10.520 Street. Well, let's put a bookmark in it on that note. Uh, thank you, Matthew. You

01:05:17.780 should definitely come back on. I can't believe you haven't been on before. So, uh, I'll

01:05:21.960 definitely have you on soon.

01:05:23.880 Yeah, great. Well, it's been an absolute pleasure. I'd love to come on and speak some

01:05:27.480 more. So thanks very much for having me.

01:05:29.020 Thanks. And I will see you, uh, if I don't see you before then, uh, I will definitely see

01:05:33.300 you in Washington DC in November. This is going to be a, a great event. So I really look forward

01:05:39.920 to that. Yeah. I can't wait to come. I'm, uh, it's, it's the only trip I've got booked

01:05:44.380 abroad at the moment and it still seems a long way away, but I can't wait.

RadixJournal - July 09, 2016

Banned in the UK

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