RadixJournal - Born to Kill

00:00:00.000 John, Romain, welcome back.

00:00:01.980 Thanks, Richard. Thanks for having me back.

00:00:03.880 So when did you two first see Full Metal Jacket?

00:00:07.600 John, I guess we'll start with you, because Romain wasn't even born or something.

00:00:13.440 I was four.

00:00:14.460 You were four. Okay.

00:00:16.140 I saw it on VHS, too, but John, you first.

00:00:20.440 Well, I remember when the TV commercials for it were on in the U.S. in 1987,

00:00:27.400 and I already knew about Kubrick because even as a teenager, I loved 2001,

00:00:34.260 but I was obviously too young to go to an R-rated movie.

00:00:38.500 I was only 14 at the time.

00:00:40.980 But I think I saw it the first time in 1990 on HBO,

00:00:47.540 and I remember it was at the time when I was working my way through all of Kubrick's films

00:00:53.420 when I was first kind of becoming a cinephile.

00:00:55.480 And I remember I was really blown away by the first half, I mean, the part on Paris Island.

00:01:03.940 And then being kind of, not exactly disappointed,

00:01:08.460 but I felt like the second part of it wasn't as interesting,

00:01:13.520 although I've come to appreciate it more in later years on subsequent viewings.

00:01:20.060 But, yeah, I just, I mean, when you don't know what's going to happen,

00:01:23.980 when you see the whole sequence on Paris Island,

00:01:27.640 I just think that that's so amazing.

00:01:31.300 You know, it's so powerful and shocking, you know, multiple things about it.

00:01:36.700 But, of course, it was also at that time in the late 80s,

00:01:42.020 you know, there was this whole rash of Vietnam films,

00:01:45.400 and, like, every American director who was serious had to, like, make a Vietnam film.

00:01:51.820 But I think it was kind of a reflection.

00:01:56.120 I mean, now, you know, with all the wars we've had since then,

00:01:59.880 it's kind of receded from people's minds.

00:02:02.320 But people probably can't appreciate how obsessed with Vietnam Americans were in the 80s

00:02:08.340 because it had such a, you know, an effect on the popular consciousness of the country.

00:02:16.560 It was the first war that we so obviously lost in the eyes of the world.

00:02:22.280 I mean, that was a real shock to America.

00:02:24.900 And I think it's, well, to quote the Watchmen,

00:02:28.300 I think it drove America a little bit crazy.

00:02:32.160 And maybe in some sense we never really recovered.

00:02:35.580 But it was, you know, Full Metal Jacket, I think,

00:02:37.800 was definitely Kubrick's contribution to that sort of national self-reflection through film

00:02:43.240 that went on in the 80s.

00:02:44.900 Yeah. I think the way I would put it is that we never learned anything.

00:02:49.440 And I think this will get at some of the themes we're going to talk about as we dive into this.

00:02:54.760 But I agree.

00:02:56.780 I remember that because I was born in 1978.

00:02:59.320 So I was around 10 or 11 when Full Metal Jacket was released.

00:03:04.780 And it came immediately after Platoon.

00:03:08.680 There was, of course, Deer Hunter, which that might have been,

00:03:12.200 Deer Hunter Apocalypse Now, which was made in the 70s.

00:03:15.500 Those were kind of the first wave of Vietnam movies.

00:03:18.720 And then there were all these, you know, imitators born on the 4th of July,

00:03:22.160 casualties of war.

00:03:23.280 And it became this kind of almost like a cliche, as you were saying, like, oh, I'm...

00:03:30.300 Let's not forget Rambo.

00:03:31.920 Well, Rambo is, in a way, a very important one.

00:03:34.780 Because I think that one, it was kind of interesting because you had this, like, kind of,

00:03:40.580 you could say reactionary idea about, like, the loss of innocence.

00:03:46.180 And, like, you know, and it kind of...

00:03:48.740 He says this in Rambo, too, I know, but why didn't you let us win?

00:03:51.940 Will you let us win this time kind of thing?

00:03:54.120 And it was the, you know, the guy who was betrayed by his country and set loose.

00:03:58.380 And then he was, you know...

00:03:59.540 And then in Rambo, too, he becomes, like, a superhero, basically.

00:04:03.980 Right.

00:04:04.340 And, you know, and it was written by James Cameron when he was, like, in his Republican phase,

00:04:09.140 like, I guess you could say.

00:04:12.060 And...

00:04:12.620 But it was basically, like, Vietnam that becomes superhero, you know, who goes and wins the war

00:04:20.160 this time kind of thing.

00:04:22.560 But, yeah, there was definitely, like, a spate of these films.

00:04:26.620 I would say that there's also kind of this ambiguity to it all because, you know, when you make

00:04:33.620 a Vietnam movie, you have to, you know, layer it with all this mock tragedy and seriousness

00:04:43.660 of, like, oh, this is just so terrible.

00:04:46.420 But I remember watching the first act of this movie, like, when I was with my football team.

00:04:55.480 And we would often, on a Thursday night, we would have these parties where we'd eat pizza,

00:05:00.460 which I guess was not a good thing to do before you play football.

00:05:02.700 But, anyway, we'd, like, eat pizza and watch a badass film.

00:05:07.740 So I remember watching, like, Mad Max, The Road Warrior and, you know, various things like

00:05:12.300 that.

00:05:12.820 But we would always watch, like, the first third of this movie just so that we would get,

00:05:17.260 you know, drill instructor Hartman and Private Pyle and all that kind of stuff.

00:05:23.800 And, you know, we'd repeat the stuff, you know, all the stuff back at each other.

00:05:26.660 Like, you're the kind of man who would fuck another man up his ass without the common courtesy

00:05:30.500 of giving him a reach around.

00:05:31.960 Like, that kind of nonsense.

00:05:34.660 So there's this way in which...

00:05:35.420 Which apparently Kubrick thought was hilarious, by the way.

00:05:37.980 They said whenever Ernie said that line, he had to stuff a sock in his mouth so that the

00:05:44.580 laughter wouldn't be audible on the recording.

00:05:48.260 That is funny.

00:05:49.180 And Kubrick, you know, is famous for having so many takes.

00:05:52.920 They probably did that scene, like, 200 times.

00:05:55.380 And Kubrick was like, oh, it's funniest.

00:05:58.460 It keeps getting funnier, you know.

00:06:02.060 But I think there's this ambiguity where, you know, this is...

00:06:07.460 Objectively speaking, Full Metal Jacket and all of those films are anti-war movies.

00:06:13.580 Maybe even pacifist, at the very least, anti-Vietnam War.

00:06:18.300 And yet, they become popular for young men almost, like, in spite of themselves.

00:06:24.480 Like, it's like, oh, I want to go to Parris Island and, like, see if I can hack it, you know,

00:06:30.760 to use their language.

00:06:31.700 Like, see, test myself.

00:06:32.960 And, like, I want to smash myself up and see if I can rebuild myself.

00:06:37.740 I want to leave bourgeois reality behind and become a killer, you know, for the Marine.

00:06:44.480 It's this weird, like, there's this, you know, ambiguity where it's both, at least for young men,

00:06:51.040 it's both a, it's an anti-war film and then, like, a rat, it's like a recruiting film on the other side.

00:06:57.480 Yeah, I definitely felt that when I saw it.

00:06:59.700 I remember.

00:07:00.260 I mean, I was, I think I was 17 at the time.

00:07:03.900 And, yeah, I actually, it was actually the Gulf War that, I thought about going into the military,

00:07:10.200 but then when I saw the Gulf War, you know, I was never interested in being a pilot or anything.

00:07:15.340 I always wanted to be, you know, one of the guys on the ground who, you know,

00:07:18.400 actually, you know, gets into hand-to-hand combat.

00:07:20.480 But then it seemed like in the Gulf War of 91 that that was all over.

00:07:25.180 And, like, from now on, you know, war was going to be a purely technological thing.

00:07:28.520 So I was kind of like, oh, what's the point of that?

00:07:30.640 I kind of lost interest.

00:07:32.100 But, yeah, I remember having that reaction when I saw it.

00:07:34.900 Like, that's awful, but, wow, that's awesome.

00:07:38.500 Badass.

00:07:41.220 Yeah.

00:07:42.100 Yeah, definitely.

00:07:43.640 Romain, when did you see it first?

00:07:47.600 Actually, it was my first Kubrick.

00:07:51.400 I think I was a teenager, maybe 15, something like that.

00:07:58.480 And I, of course, I liked the first act, like both of you.

00:08:04.040 And, you know, as my first Kubrick, I don't say, I wouldn't say I was disappointed by it

00:08:13.460 because I obviously liked it.

00:08:16.600 But, you know, it's not why I would become a Kubrick fan.

00:08:21.040 And it was a bit later with his most famous movies.

00:08:27.160 So, you know, it's weird because it was my introduction to it.

00:08:32.960 And at the same time, it's not the reason why I like Kubrick movies.

00:08:38.600 And the other thing is that I liked Vietnam War movies, the other ones, more than this one,

00:08:46.740 despite its terrific beginning.

00:08:50.620 So maybe, yes, maybe like John, I think the second part is maybe it's half-baked.

00:09:01.080 I don't know how to put it, but it certainly doesn't, you know, match the first one.

00:09:08.680 Match the first one.

00:09:10.300 I used to think that, but as I've seen it more, I've really,

00:09:14.020 I've come to appreciate how it almost kind of parallels the first part.

00:09:18.540 For me, it's still not quite as powerful, but I think it has some good elements to it

00:09:26.600 that kind of redeem it.

00:09:28.420 Well, it is a bit chaotic.

00:09:31.240 I mean, because you don't, the second, I agree with John.

00:09:35.640 I mean, I agree with both of you.

00:09:37.120 Clearly, the first 45 minutes of the movie is really intriguing and entertaining.

00:09:45.060 And the second hour or so is harder to watch.

00:09:48.600 It's a bit chaotic.

00:09:49.460 You don't know what it, you almost don't know what the movie's doing in a way.

00:09:52.920 Like, is Joker the protagonist?

00:09:55.160 I mean, I don't even know.

00:09:56.940 So is this like a Dadaist mashup movie, you know, where you're part of it's like stylized

00:10:04.860 and news reports and things like this?

00:10:07.820 Or is this actually a drama?

00:10:10.620 Is this an action movie, which it kind of is at one point?

00:10:13.400 I remember there's this one scene, which I think was almost like Kubrick directly telling

00:10:21.320 you what to think, where it's right before the final action scene with the sniper.

00:10:25.920 And 8-Ball, who's, you know, the black soldier, where did he get that name?

00:10:31.800 I don't know.

00:10:32.200 And cowboy are there, and they're lost.

00:10:37.320 And they actually say on the map, oh, we're lost.

00:10:39.620 We're here, but we should be here.

00:10:42.280 And I think that was actually, I think Kubrick is literally telling the audience, like, we're

00:10:49.340 lost.

00:10:50.280 We're a little chaotic.

00:10:51.420 But this is actually what the movie's about.

00:10:54.900 Well, and I imagine, I mean, I have to say that I've talked to a couple of Vietnam vets

00:11:00.020 about it, where they've actually said that, well, Full Metal Jacket came the closest in

00:11:05.140 their view to what it was actually like to be there.

00:11:08.140 Right.

00:11:08.360 Because, you know, I imagine when you're in combat, you often, you know, you do make

00:11:13.060 mistakes and get lost, and you often have no idea what's going on.

00:11:16.360 There's no climactic battle, you know.

00:11:19.560 Right.

00:11:19.780 You know, I mean, even in the Second World War, I mean, most soldiers, at least from the

00:11:24.040 American side, the vast majority of soldiers did not fire their weapon.

00:11:27.560 You know, I mean, it was, you know, it's this, a lot of waiting, and you're not where the

00:11:32.580 action is, and you're, this weird thing where, you know, you're, you know, like 20 guys going

00:11:38.180 after one sniper, all this weird stuff.

00:11:41.440 But I do think as well, like, the two films, if you want to say that, are deeply connected.

00:11:49.780 And, you know, in a way, like, the second platoon that Joker stumbles upon after he leaves the

00:11:59.840 journalism propaganda wing, they're almost like doppelgangers of the trainees.

00:12:08.120 I think in most, I mean, in Cowboy is there, he's kind of almost like the link.

00:12:15.140 But I think Animal Mother is probably the most obvious that he's, because he looks so much

00:12:22.600 like Private Pyle.

00:12:24.820 He looks like a badass version of Private Pyle.

00:12:28.520 And he kind of, I think he must be, be supposed to be stoned or something when you first see

00:12:34.400 him, but he talks in that really slow way.

00:12:37.040 Yeah.

00:12:37.400 Like, you talk the talk, but do you walk the walk?

00:12:42.360 Which is like how Pyle talked.

00:12:44.520 Like, because Pyle is almost like, at some points he seems almost retarded.

00:12:49.140 Yeah.

00:12:49.640 Or, you know, semi-retarded.

00:12:51.540 And I think in, you know, you kind of, I mean, this gets to a bigger theme that I see in the

00:12:58.960 film of this, like, you're stripping down the layers of manhood.

00:13:05.960 And, you know, the title itself, because, you know, remember, you know, there are no coincidences

00:13:13.380 of Kubrick.

00:13:14.080 You know, he chooses the title.

00:13:15.980 He takes, you know, he does 200 takes of a scene.

00:13:21.080 You know, he, you know, this film was made in England.

00:13:24.740 You know, people don't recognize that.

00:13:26.140 In East London.

00:13:27.280 Right.

00:13:27.800 It's ridiculous.

00:13:29.360 They shipped in palm trees from Spain or something.

00:13:32.200 I was reading it.

00:13:33.080 You know, I mean, he is, it is a totally controlled environment.

00:13:36.820 I think they did, there are some scenes that I think might be Vietnam, but that was like

00:13:40.840 the second unit he just sent them, like, ah, I get some background shots or something.

00:13:44.640 Like, everything is filmed in a controlled environment.

00:13:47.900 Like, you see what he wants you to see.

00:13:50.820 Yeah.

00:13:51.360 Nothing, literally nothing is, like, found objects.

00:13:55.980 Everything is chosen.

00:13:58.300 And, you know, so, so, like, when, when they try to, when he tries to make a link between

00:14:04.540 two things, like, if you, if you think that's what he's doing, that is what he's doing.

00:14:08.540 Like, he's, you know, he's, he's creating that.

00:14:11.280 But, but I think the, um, to go back to what I was saying, the, you're kind of like stripping

00:14:16.760 down, oh, I was talking about the title, like full metal jacket, I think is also kind of

00:14:21.040 a metaphor of unclothing or taking off layers.

00:14:24.900 Like, you, you've got this hard layer that, the full metal jacket, and, and it's also kind

00:14:30.800 of like a badass layer, uh, to you.

00:14:33.520 But, you know, even the, the opening shots of your, you know, the country music song about

00:14:37.660 going to Vietnam and you're shaving off their heads.

00:14:40.920 Like, it's, it's just this metaphor of like getting closer and closer to this primal being.

00:14:46.680 Uh, something that I, I think that the, I, that Kubrick is trying to make clear is, you

00:14:52.920 know, technology was always an obsession with him and the way humans use technology.

00:14:57.040 And I think what the, the Paris Island sequence is supposed to depict is, you know, the military

00:15:02.380 trying to, to turn these men into actual weapons, you know, into tools.

00:15:07.800 Uh, the problem with Pyle is he's, he becomes, you know, at first he's very bad and then he becomes

00:15:15.420 too good of a tool and he kind of malfunctions like how it ends up killing, uh, his, his master.

00:15:22.800 Uh, I've never thought about the how connection.

00:15:25.620 I think that's, that's definitely there.

00:15:28.660 But, but I, yeah, I, I, I think that this, you know, this sense of making people into tools,

00:15:34.100 like, like a realization I had when I was in India is that the, the spiritual process that

00:15:39.020 monks go through and what soldiers go through is almost the same.

00:15:43.660 You know, it's, it's about breaking down, you know, your ego and your personality and

00:15:48.400 replacing it with something impersonal.

00:15:50.440 Of course, the ends are very different between the military and being in a monastery or something,

00:15:56.340 but it's the same kind of process.

00:15:58.040 Both are the aesthetic ideal.

00:16:00.200 Yeah.

00:16:00.480 Yeah, exactly.

00:16:01.720 Nietzsche would say, yeah.

00:16:03.040 Overcoming yourself.

00:16:04.360 Yeah.

00:16:04.760 And smashing yourself up and seeing if anything remains.

00:16:07.780 Can you hack it?

00:16:08.560 Um, and you know, it, it, what I was going to that is, is like to, to go on this, like,

00:16:13.680 uh, the guy's named animal mother.

00:16:15.760 And it says, I, and his, on his hat, it says, I am become death.

00:16:19.440 I mean, it's just this, like, he's this primal badass, this, you know, this like earlier version

00:16:25.720 of humanity that is still within us.

00:16:27.960 You know, it's, it's in everyone, um, even, even, even social justice warriors.

00:16:32.540 If, if you, if, you know, throw a social justice warrior into Paris Island for a long enough

00:16:39.080 time and they'll come out, uh, uh, uh, uh, an animal mother.

00:16:43.320 Um, and, uh, you know, it's, it's kind of interesting cause that, that scene where the, the final scene

00:16:48.760 of the first act where it's nighttime and you have that like characteristic Kubrickian blue

00:16:54.200 light, you know, everywhere. It's like reminds you of eyes wide shut. Um, but, uh, they, uh,

00:17:00.500 the drill instructor, the drill instructor there, you, uh, Joker walks through the hall and then he,

00:17:05.560 he hears something and he walks by the drill instructor. Then he walks in a room that's called,

00:17:09.620 it's labeled head. And of course that's a, you know, colloquial for the toilet, but it's all,

00:17:18.320 also like obviously metaphorical, like you're going into his head and you're,

00:17:24.200 he goes into his head and you have pile has, has, has the thousand yard stare. He has that

00:17:31.100 demonic, you know, with, you see the, you see the whites below the pupils of their eye of his eyes.

00:17:38.020 And he's staring at you in this like reptilian, uh, like way. And, uh, I, I think it's, it is that

00:17:45.220 metaphor. Very much like Alex, very, very much like, um, uh, reminiscent of many of, uh,

00:17:53.300 Jack Nicholson's, uh, you know, stairs in the shining as well. And I'm sure there are others.

00:18:00.220 Um, but you, you get at that other within ourselves. Cause there, you know, there's the,

00:18:05.260 there's the shadow and the union sense of there, there's another, there's an other outside of

00:18:10.340 ourself. And that, that is the other of a different race, a different, a different world,

00:18:15.340 you know, the, the Viet Cong, but there's that other within ourself. There's that shadow being who,

00:18:20.060 who is a killer. And, and he was also a terrible, I mean, you know, this, um, sorry, I've been,

00:18:25.860 I've been flowing here for a little while. I'll get you guys, I'll let you guys talk. I'll force

00:18:29.560 myself to be quiet, but it's my podcast. But, uh, you know, when, when the Marines are with, uh,

00:18:37.040 with the drill instructor, Hartman, hard man, you know, real, obviously metaphorical, um, he, he

00:18:44.240 tell, he, he, he talks about the university of Texas assassin. And then he says, you know,

00:18:49.780 who I, who is that Hinkley? Is that his name? Uh, uh, uh, Charles Whitman, Charles Whitman,

00:18:54.280 excuse me. Yes. I, I'd forgotten Hinkley obviously shot Reagan, right. Um, but it was Charles

00:18:58.740 Whitman. And then, um, and then he mentions Lee Harvey Oswald. And so he's saying, you know,

00:19:03.680 who are, you know, they did amazing shots, like for a moving target at 250 yards, you know,

00:19:09.680 where did they learn to shoot the Marine Corps? And, uh, it's, it's funny. And it obviously like

00:19:17.400 looks forward to the sniper, um, as well, the female sniper. So it's this, it's this kind of

00:19:23.100 sense that like the Marines will break you down and they'll, they'll turn you into a, a, they'll

00:19:28.320 turn you into a killer. And they'll also turn you into a robot, despite, uh, Joker's insistence that

00:19:34.000 they don't want to do that. They will kind of turn you into a robot, but, but on a, on another level,

00:19:39.200 it's like a, it's like a weapon that has no like warrior to it. Like it could go fire off. It could

00:19:45.820 fire off at itself. It can fire off at friend. And then, you know, it's that, it's that killer

00:19:50.800 instinct that, that is, it's, it's dangerous and uncontrolled. You're, you're, you're, yeah,

00:19:55.920 you're playing with fire. It's, it's made it even clearer in the book. I have to say, uh, if Kubrick

00:20:02.940 had actually, it's called the short timers. Yeah. Uh, if Kubrick had actually faithfully adapted

00:20:09.160 the book, nobody would have believed it. I mean, it's, it's way more psychotic. I mean

00:20:15.400 that the basic feeling you get from the book is that all Marines are psychos. Like the

00:20:20.920 scene where Pyle shoots Hartman in the book, uh, the last thing Hartman does before he dies

00:20:27.220 is he congratulates Pyle on like, you'll complete it. He doesn't finish his sentence, but you think

00:20:34.220 he's going to congratulate him for like completing his training? Uh, and then like after, uh, Pyle

00:20:40.940 shoots himself, Joker just orders all the other men back into bed. Uh, and they just leave the

00:20:48.040 bodies lying on the floor and he's, the book is told from Joker's perspective. And he says

00:20:53.200 something like, Oh, well, probably the civilians are going to make a noise about that or something

00:20:58.120 like that. But you know, we don't care. Then they all get into their bunks and, uh, they

00:21:03.300 start praying to their rifles. And then like Joker has some dream of like, you know, falling

00:21:09.520 in love with his rifle or something. And that's the end of the Paris Island. It's, it carries

00:21:16.160 over into the Vietnam part. Like, uh, uh, the Marines actually spend more time almost killing

00:21:23.960 or actually killing each other as they do fighting the Vietnamese. Uh, uh, like, uh, in the book,

00:21:30.520 uh, uh, uh, Rafter Man is actually run over by this psychotic Marine driving a tank. That's

00:21:39.200 how he dies. Uh, well, he doesn't die in the film at all. I, I won't go on at length about

00:21:44.180 this. There's, but there's many examples of this. It's, it's a very odd book if, if, if

00:21:49.940 you read it, it's, I actually think Kubrick improved it by, uh, well, I think Michael

00:21:55.080 Hare, maybe pulling back a little bit is sometimes important, you know? Yeah. Because

00:22:00.640 I, and I've actually heard that some Vietnam vets have read the book and said like, well,

00:22:05.280 and actually Gustav Hasford who wrote it himself was a combat journalist in Vietnam and in the

00:22:11.020 Marines. But some people have said that, you know, they, they think he was, he was exaggerating

00:22:15.900 quite a bit. And I think the changes Kubrick made were, were good, but it, it reinforces

00:22:21.220 this idea that, you know, that is in the story that, uh, you know, this, this kind of psychotic

00:22:26.600 animal energy is released, uh, through this process. Yeah. Well, we, we all have a reptilian

00:22:34.360 brainstem. Um, you know, there, there's, uh, in human evolution, uh, which took place over

00:22:41.200 the last, uh, you know, when the world was created 3000 years ago. Um, no, just, um, it,

00:22:46.700 I thought it was 5,000. Oh, five, sorry. Oh, 5,000. Yeah. Yeah. What are you reading? Richard

00:22:52.020 Dawkins or something? I mean, no, it just, well, yeah, I mean, we're, you know, we, I think

00:22:57.820 I, I probably mentioned this another one. I mean, we're connected to the dinosaurs, you know,

00:23:02.600 like we, we, we have a, a reptilian brainstem that is still functional and it's, it's actually

00:23:11.400 the most efficient part of our brain. It is the, you know, the fight or flight mechanism. It's

00:23:17.140 basically fight, uh, flight, fuck, kill, you know, death, you know, kind of mechanism. And it is in

00:23:26.620 everyone's brain and the, you know, the mammalian system that grew out after that. So with human

00:23:33.220 evolution, like in a way, like you can see human evolution in the completed organism. It's not,

00:23:38.960 it's not like a, the little, you know, little proto mammal that survived the extinction of the

00:23:43.540 dinosaur is like, you know, disappeared and a man arose or something, you know, it's like you,

00:23:47.760 it's like an accumulation of, of evolutionary things. And, um, so we still have a reptilian brainstem

00:23:54.400 and it's very, it's highly efficient. I mean, cause it's so old it's, it's been honed. And then

00:24:00.120 on top of that, we have the mammalian system, which is more about emotions and connections with

00:24:06.740 the community and things like, you know, mammals generally raise their children as opposed to eat

00:24:11.960 them like reptiles, you know, um, small difference, you know, um, uh, and then, uh, high, high investment

00:24:20.700 parenting. Yes, it is. It's high investment.

00:24:23.140 Like, like, shall we eat our child's sweetheart? Hmm. Maybe not this time. Let's raise this into a,

00:24:31.780 an adult, uh, you know, uh, and then we have this.

00:24:36.100 And also the reptilian brain is protected.

00:24:39.020 Yes.

00:24:39.760 Uh, unlike the other parts. That's why when someone is traumatized, he will keep all his reptilian,

00:24:47.420 um, instincts, uh, you know, um, intact while some, you know, areas like, uh, language or, uh,

00:24:58.380 the ability to smell or to taste, uh, can be affected. So it's the most important parts

00:25:04.180 because it's a, it's a core of it.

00:25:07.640 Absolutely. And this cerebral cortex developed very late and, you know, and it's very inefficient

00:25:14.060 and we can't use it for long periods. Like, you know, you can only concentrate intently on

00:25:20.160 something for, you know, a little more than an hour. You, you have to take a break. You can't

00:25:24.720 just, you know, you can't solve a math equation for two hours or something, you know, it's,

00:25:29.700 you know, I don't know, maybe some, maybe some autists can do that, but they, they don't,

00:25:34.220 they don't have a reptilian brain. They only have a cerebral cortex. But, um, so it's a very

00:25:39.220 inefficient part of the mind and, and a way you could think about it is that, you know,

00:25:43.200 our, our cerebral cortex kind of rationalizes. So, you know, we'll, we'll, we'll go and we'll

00:25:49.880 become killers in a war. And then we'll go home and write a book about how it was a just cause and,

00:25:54.860 and it was for the glory of God and, and so on. I know I'm, I'm sounding extremely cynical,

00:26:00.720 but I think people get my, get my point that, you know, what we think of as, as human and

00:26:07.000 consciousness is this like utmost outer layer of actual consciousness, which actually often just

00:26:14.520 invents reasons to explain things that we do that come from this lower, uh, animalistic part of our

00:26:22.400 nature. Well, right. The outer layer is like rafter man, you know, and he's like, they died for a good

00:26:27.780 cause, you know, or, you know, or like, what are we fighting for? And he's like, freedom. And then,

00:26:32.560 you know, what does the animal mother say to that? He's like freedom. If there, you know,

00:26:37.020 if there's a war that is, if there's a word that describes this, it's a fucking slaughter. He says

00:26:41.900 something like that. Um, you know, so it's like, there's a rafter man in your brain and he's like

00:26:48.980 rationalizing things. And, but then ultimately there's a animal mother in your brain that wants

00:26:56.840 to fuck things and kill them and dominate other people and so on. So it's, you know, it's, it's who

00:27:02.880 we are. Although the interesting thing is when they're confronted by the dying sniper at the end,

00:27:11.060 there's a moment where, uh, I guess animal mother at that point is in command of the squad and, uh,

00:27:21.280 the camera shows him and he's like, okay, let's get out of here or something like that. But you see

00:27:26.500 his face and you can see that he's like freaked out. Like maybe he's never actually seen a dying

00:27:34.060 person that close before. Uh, right. It's quite clear, you know, just for a, just for a moment.

00:27:41.560 Uh, and then, then when Joker says that, you know, well, we can't just leave her here. Then he kind

00:27:46.120 of snaps back into, into, you know, uh, whatever you want to call it, savage mode. Yeah. But, uh,

00:27:56.020 there is that moment where it's like, you know, he actually has this look on his face of, uh,

00:28:00.620 almost like terror. Well, even when you're in this mode of, of kill them all, you know,

00:28:06.160 kind of a thing, like it's, it's impossible not to have some empathy. Like there's, you can't,

00:28:11.660 that, that final scene when the, this, the sniper young girl comes out, um, there's no way you see

00:28:18.580 that and you can't have a sense of pity or you're, you're not human being, you know? I mean, it's,

00:28:24.240 it's a truly, it's a truly sad thing. Um, well, I also think it's not a coincidence that you,

00:28:30.960 you know, you've got this film about extreme masculinity and then, you know, the woman who

00:28:35.600 almost takes them, you know, it's a woman who almost takes them down. Yeah. Uh, in the end,

00:28:40.700 I mean, that's, that's also clearly symbolic. Yeah. I mean, there, when you first, I think also

00:28:46.980 there, you know, again, there, there are a lot of layers to this, but I think that woman is,

00:28:50.560 is kind of a symbolic, uh, one of the prostitutes, you know, it's not, she's not literally,

00:28:55.580 it's the same actress, but, but kind of like Buniel would, you know, the, which film,

00:29:01.300 is that the discrete charm of the bourgeoisie or maybe that's another one. There's one where he has

00:29:06.040 two separate actresses playing the same character. Uh, I can't remember, but Kubrick loved Buniel.

00:29:12.320 Oh, I'm sure he did. Yeah. There, there's a lot, we should do some Buniel movies. Those are,

00:29:17.600 uh, really fantastic ones. Um, I think it's a discrete object of desire. Um, you, you have the

00:29:24.280 wonderful woman who, uh, the actress who played, um, uh, who played, uh, Miss, uh, Havlock in

00:29:32.660 for your eyes only to bring everything back to a James Bond film as I, as I'm one to do. Uh,

00:29:38.100 uh, she actually was in a Buniel film, I think before or afterward. And then she like got mad

00:29:42.900 at Bunuel and just left or something. And he just hired another actress, but, but they were like,

00:29:47.900 oh, should we reshoot the scenes? He's like, ah, no, it's fine. So like two actresses playing the

00:29:53.080 same character anyway. Um, uh, you know, very surreal, but yeah, it's, it's like the, the sniper at the

00:29:58.680 end is one of those prostitutes. You can kind of sense it, you know, it's, and one scene Joker

00:30:03.620 says, um, you know, these prostitutes, they're all officers in the Viet Cong. Yeah. Yeah. Um,

00:30:11.420 and you know, and, and, and that final scene, it's like, it's a, it's a parallel to the, to the

00:30:16.380 earlier scene where they're negotiating with a prostitute and they're all there, you know, the,

00:30:20.900 the, the final scene is almost like them gang raping her and, you know, having, having their way with

00:30:28.200 her, you know, I'm a heart. Yeah. They even say no more boom, boom for this mama song.

00:30:32.920 Yeah. Yeah. No more boom, boom. The fact that they call sex boom, boom is also interesting

00:30:38.060 because it's also a bomb or, uh, or a sniper shot or, um, you know, kind of. Which brings

00:30:44.720 us to the younger thing. Yeah. You know, the duality of man. And, uh, the fact that on his

00:30:51.960 helmet, he both, uh, he has a peace sign on his jacket and, uh, uh, born to kill on his

00:30:58.920 helmet. Right. Yeah. It's this way. And, um, he mentioned it's funny. Yeah. And it's funny

00:31:07.240 because, um, actually I know there's a kind of, uh, uh, Aryan Jewish rivalry between Freud

00:31:15.900 and, and Jung, but, um, you know, you find that in, uh, Freud's work too, in, um, you

00:31:22.860 know, one of his, uh, later works just before the, before world war two, just before he died,

00:31:29.100 uh, maybe in 35, um, he developed the ideas that, uh, civilization is based on heroes and

00:31:38.280 senators. So on love and death. And it's exactly what you find here. And I was surprised when

00:31:45.620 I saw it again, uh, as an adult, not as a teenager that, uh, Kubrick cited Jung and not

00:31:53.800 Freud, which maybe was more a natural reference for him. Hmm. Hmm. No, I'm, I'm thinking through

00:32:04.180 that. I think that that is interesting that he's doing that because the, you know, like

00:32:08.360 eyes wide shut is a very Freudian movie. Um, almost, almost overtly. It's like kind of

00:32:14.700 like Freud for dummies or something. Um, um, but, but it is interesting cause there's almost

00:32:20.120 like the duality of, of Jung and Freud who obviously, um, and shining too. Yeah. Yeah,

00:32:25.980 definitely. And it's three movies in a row, actually. Yeah. Over the course of 25 years

00:32:32.620 or Kubrick is so slow. Well, the psychological thing is important, but I think especially now

00:32:40.860 when you have two fresh wars to see the same phenomenon in action that go born to kill and

00:32:47.160 the peace symbol, that's like America's way of making war, which is probably why we're so

00:32:52.280 bad at it, or at least of winning them. Cause you know, America always thinks that, uh, well,

00:32:58.180 you know, we can do these incredibly violent, barbaric things, but it's all, you know, it's

00:33:02.440 all going to bring about this, this peaceful utopia at the end. It's, it's always been kind

00:33:08.800 of the American misconception about war. Yeah. It kind of, it gets back to what I mentioned

00:33:13.740 for earlier where, you know, we, we, we did all of the, even Hollywood did all these Vietnam

00:33:20.420 films that were all serious and tragic. Oh, you know, let, you know, let's contemplate the

00:33:28.380 heart of darkness kind of thing, but we never learned anything as a culture. And, you know,

00:33:33.800 it's like seeing, seeing this movie now in, in 2016 where we're like, we're like 10 years

00:33:39.820 distance from the Iraq war and, and we're many decades distance from the, uh, Vietnam war.

00:33:46.020 Um, you, you see that we still, we're still like saying the same crap, you know, um, that

00:33:51.480 where he meets, um, cause I think there are a lot of doppelgangers in this movie and, and

00:33:56.320 the Joker meets, uh, Hartman's doppelganger in this older, uh, you know, is a colonel or general

00:34:04.500 or something, uh, who comes on when they, when they see this, you know, uh, mass death, the mass

00:34:10.140 grave covered with these poor people covered in lime. Um, he meets that, he meets that guy. He's

00:34:16.320 like, you know, what are you doing with a, you know, uh, what are you doing the peace sign? Are you

00:34:20.360 a commie? Like, why don't you come join the home team, you know, get ready for a big win for the big

00:34:25.480 win? All this football metaphors. Yeah. So America, it's so like small town American,

00:34:33.220 like white, white Christian, white Protestant, really. It's, it's, uh, but, uh, uh, but he,

00:34:40.020 but he says to him, uh, you know, he's like white, a peace symbol and a born to kill. It's

00:34:43.500 like, it's the young and duality of man. And, uh, and then he gets into his mode of, of propaganda.

00:34:48.800 He's like, you know, within every gook, there's an American just waiting to get out. And that

00:34:54.700 line, I think might be the most important line in terms of understanding American consciousness

00:35:00.360 where America is both this racist nation. And I, I use that term with hesitation, but it's a racist

00:35:10.080 nation, but then it's at the same time, this almost like anti-racist post-racist nation of,

00:35:16.400 you know, let's go kill the Arabs so that they'll have democracy one day and they'll,

00:35:21.440 you know, be, be shopping at malls just like us, you know, you know, kind of like one day

00:35:27.020 they'll be playing football over in Iraq and, you know, you know, they'll be our, uh, you know,

00:35:33.220 they'll be our, uh, our allies. We go kill some Nazis. Nazis, if you want to say it like George C.

00:35:40.400 Scott's. Right. So it, it's, you know, it, I, and it's funny, like we haven't learned anything.

00:35:46.840 Like it's, I, I, I was, I, I, I was definitely opposed, I opposed the Iraq war in a weird way.

00:35:55.440 I was almost red pilled by the Iraq war because it's like ever, I was so against it and everyone

00:36:01.480 was for it that I was almost like that inspired me to start reading alternative, the alternative

00:36:07.660 right, you know, kind of stuff, you know, who, uh, and, um, certainly reading up on, on Jewish

00:36:13.420 influence and the neoconservatives and so on. Um, but, but I think what's also important is that

00:36:19.420 like we, there's this deep myth within America that, that within every gook is an American just

00:36:24.880 waiting to get out. Like that, that is, that's some deep on some deep level of consciousness.

00:36:29.680 We all believe that. And it, and it's, we don't, we don't ever really learn like now everyone is

00:36:35.380 opposed to the Iraq war. It's being against the Iraq war is not controversial at this point,

00:36:39.920 but we, we've never actually learned anything. Like you, you hear the same nonsense with like,

00:36:45.920 let's help the Libyans. Let's, you know, let's help the Egyptians become Americans. Like there,

00:36:51.700 there's going to be another intervention. There'll be another intervention perhaps

00:36:55.320 in the Trump administration where we will say the same crap because this is our foundational myth.

00:37:02.560 And, and it's, it, we, we really have never been able to get away from it.

00:37:06.780 No, no, it's very deeply embedded. I mean, I think it actually comes out of the, you know,

00:37:13.280 the Christian myth that, that, of the, of the, the Puritans who came over to America and Christianity

00:37:20.060 more generally, just this idea that, well, you have to, you have a crusade, uh, to bring about,

00:37:26.740 you know, God's kingdom on earth. Uh, I mean, it's been secularized, but the, the basic, uh,

00:37:33.520 idea is the same. Yeah. And you see, I think you see a variation on this in France as well. I mean,

00:37:39.380 Romain would not deny that there's a, there's a, there's a, you know, our civilizing mission type,

00:37:47.000 type way of articulating.

00:37:48.360 Uh, the regime that was established in 1789 was obviously linked to, uh, the new American one.

00:37:56.720 So there's no question about it. And of course there were human links. I mean, Lafayette fought on the,

00:38:03.980 the American side, uh, the, the insurgent side. And then, um, uh, Benjamin Franklin and, uh, Thomas Paine

00:38:12.440 were in Paris and really helped the revolution. Jefferson, of course.

00:38:17.160 Thomas Paine was actually a French MP. Uh, he was American and French at the same time because he

00:38:23.940 was on, on the revolution side. Um, so that's, that's not true that the French, he, he was a

00:38:31.100 Frenchie because he was left wing. So he was French, obviously. Um, no, but more, more seriously.

00:38:41.360 Um, yeah, um, yeah, there is the same idea, but I don't think it went, um, as far as, uh, shaping the

00:38:50.480 army. Uh, obviously the French army is not much today, but, uh, when it was, you know, at the height of

00:38:59.720 its glory, uh, so maybe the first world war, I don't think, you know, it was more about fighting for,

00:39:09.540 you know, it's very ambiguous because, uh, I think the army remained traditional to some extent,

00:39:18.380 but serving a non-traditional regime where, while in America, maybe it's more consistent to have,

00:39:26.680 um, you know, the Marine Corps, uh, a drill, uh, instructors saying that, uh, here you are equally

00:39:34.280 worthless whether you are yellow or black or Jewish. So, you know, it's, I don't, I don't think

00:39:43.500 that in a European army. So today's are maybe two European armies. If you exclude, uh, Russia,

00:39:50.720 uh, you could hear something like that, uh, really ideological speech. You know, it's more about

00:39:58.020 defending, uh, uh, defending, uh, practical interests. And I don't really see the civilizational

00:40:05.700 mission in, you know, it's, uh, you know, we call, um, we Frenchmen, we call the army, uh, the great

00:40:15.820 mute because it doesn't speak, it only acts. And, uh, you, you don't really find ideology.

00:40:23.940 And actually, if you look at the forces inside the army that are fighting each other, it's

00:40:31.860 half Catholic and half Masons. So it's, uh, they had to find a kind of compromise. Whereas in,

00:40:40.940 maybe in America, it's more, yeah, consistent with the regime and its ideology. Yeah.

00:40:47.680 Well, I also, but in the French case, couldn't that partially be because of what happened at the

00:40:53.640 end of the Algerian war, where there was that coup of military officers where, you know, they,

00:40:58.880 they actually, I guess they actually almost put an action, a plan to, to overthrow de Gaulle by force.

00:41:05.920 So never got to that point, but I assume there must've been a real kind of purging of, uh,

00:41:12.840 politics from the army in that aftermath of that.

00:41:16.320 Actually, there have been several purges, um, starting of course, after world war two, because,

00:41:22.780 uh, most of the army, uh, joined the Vichy regime, but, uh, yeah, uh, first you had the

00:41:29.680 Indochina war, which was actually a prequel to the Vietnam war. And, and at that time you

00:41:37.860 had, um, you know, a kind of, um, uh, tension between the country, which wanted peace and at

00:41:45.640 the price of, uh, you know, abandoning all these colonies. And, and the army that was defending

00:41:51.980 a kind of a romantic vision of the country, uh, and its mission. And of course, Algeria

00:41:57.940 was the final, uh, stage because then the empire was over and France has to, had to think of

00:42:06.740 itself differently, maybe more as a European countries and as a kind of a empire. And of

00:42:13.220 course it was the same for, um, England once it lost all, all its colonies. And of course,

00:42:20.840 with America is different because, um, Vietnam was, I think liberals are right to say that

00:42:28.860 it was a kind of colonial war and, and, you know, uh, America was really at its height.

00:42:36.380 So, and it's, it was still the case in 91 with the Iraq war. So as a Gulf war, so well,

00:42:44.020 Vietnam, I see, I don't think it would have happened were it not for the cold war, because

00:42:49.620 there wasn't really anything that America was interested in, in getting in Vietnam. It

00:42:55.280 was more, I think, you know, the idea that, well, you know, we can, if that one falls, you

00:42:59.880 know, all the dominoes in Asia will fall and, you know, the world will go communist within

00:43:05.380 10 years or something like that. I think that was more of the idea behind it than that we

00:43:09.380 actually wanted to, to rule it.

00:43:12.580 Well, I think that, I think there are many people who genuinely believed that. Um, I, I,

00:43:19.380 I agree. I don't think it was a colonial war, uh, like, uh, like a 19th century colonial

00:43:24.820 war. Uh, but I think what's interesting is that the, the United, the cold war inherited

00:43:31.220 all of this, this colonial baggage, you could say. Yes. And, and they, they became the new

00:43:36.820 colonialist, uh, almost just by, by the act of, of being there. You, but you, and yeah,

00:43:42.600 I, I just go back a little bit on, on the kind of like the nature of the military. I mean,

00:43:46.400 I, I'll say this, I I've never served in the military. I've only watched Vietnam movies,

00:43:50.560 but, uh, but I, I, you know, I have an outsider's perspective. I think I can still talk about

00:43:56.660 it. Um, I, I would say that maybe America, the American army had, had a greater synthesis

00:44:03.660 and, and that's why it still does have this aura to it where, um, where, I mean, one of

00:44:10.440 the things that this movie definitely presents is that the, the American army is still dominated

00:44:14.940 by this like older, uh, Midwestern and Southern, uh, Christian, uh, white to say, you know, don't,

00:44:23.140 don't even need to mention it, but white Christian, but not even white Christian, really

00:44:26.600 white Protestant type mentality of, you know, drill Sergeant Hartman of, you know, uh, when

00:44:34.000 someone says like, do you believe in the Virgin Mary? And he, uh, you know, he freaks out,

00:44:38.740 you know, uh, kind of thing. And this, uh, uh, you know, we, we, you know, God loves the

00:44:43.800 Marines cause we keep, uh, heaven full of fresh souls and all this kind of stuff. So there

00:44:49.480 was this synthesis achieved where you, you, it kind of like brought in the, the revolutionary

00:44:55.340 egalitarian universalist qualities of America itself, but then it kind of enveloped those in

00:45:02.620 this, uh, Midwestern and Southern, you know, almost conservative type people who were leading

00:45:09.800 it. And, and I think maybe that, that synthesis is why the, the American army is, is still in a way

00:45:15.380 going as a major force. Uh, I mean, it's now being, uh, you know, from what I can tell, the army

00:45:21.240 is now being, um, uh, social justice warrior eyes. Uh, you know, you have all these, you

00:45:26.780 know, transgender soldiers and, and, and all this kind of nonsense, but, um, but even

00:45:32.860 Yeah. But, but you posted it a few years ago. I remember, I remember that. Yeah. And there

00:45:40.420 was one, uh, there, there was one person, uh, I can't remember his name at the moment. Was

00:45:46.000 it? No, it wasn't. I can't remember his name, but it was after the, that terrible event in the

00:45:50.440 Fort Hood shooting where a Muslim cleric, you know, shot, um, dozens of people. And, uh,

00:45:58.200 there was this, uh, this army general, um, do you remember his name? But he said, basically

00:46:03.380 as terrible as this event was, if we give up on diversity, that would be worse. And, uh,

00:46:10.120 I don't think I actually remember. Yeah. I mean, in some ways that it's totally unsurprising.

00:46:15.340 Yeah. I mean, it's, it's just this.

00:46:16.880 It was a chief of staff. Yeah. But even, and so he, he uttered this just totally ridiculous

00:46:24.040 thing. The kind of thing that you would expect to hear, you know, at the, the, at the postmodern

00:46:29.440 literature department at Duke university or something like just, you know, eye rollingly

00:46:35.200 nonsensical, like giving up on diversity is worse than mass murder. You know, like, wow,

00:46:41.500 that's, you're really dedicated. Uh, but, but the guy who said it was probably like from

00:46:48.100 Oklahoma or something, you know, you know, who goes to his mega church every Sunday and,

00:46:54.020 you know, Ooh, yeah. You know, okay. So we've, I think America has reached this just horrible

00:46:58.560 synthesis in its military culture. Um, I, I have to say, I, uh, uh, unlike Europe, which still

00:47:06.080 has this older tradition of, of a kind of pompous ruling class type culture. You know, we, we

00:47:14.180 are, we're, we're, we, we are the, the, the weaponized arm of the, the Prussian elite or

00:47:20.660 something. I think there's still probably some hangover of that in America.

00:47:24.120 Oh yeah. I, I think I've read that the American military is, is especially after

00:47:29.600 world war two, you know, very much borrowed from, uh, what they learned from fighting

00:47:34.600 the Germans and especially from Prussian tactics and of course, weapons and things

00:47:39.660 too, that were, that were taken from the Germans after the war. So yeah, I definitely

00:47:43.680 think that there's, and let's face it. I mean, you know, with, with no offense to our, our

00:47:48.800 European comrades, but I mean, you know, they, they've had, you know, they've had the

00:47:52.180 shield of the U S now for 70 years. So yeah, but they didn't really have the

00:47:57.360 choice, especially the Germans. Oh, I, I know. I, I, they are not allowed to have

00:48:02.220 an army. So, but I'm just saying, you know, we can't really fault Europe for not

00:48:06.820 having, uh, you know, a true military culture anymore because we can, and we

00:48:13.760 can't at the same time. Uh, it's really paradoxical because, um, Europeans, and it's

00:48:21.680 not only the governments, it's also the public opinion, doesn't want a real army,

00:48:28.220 especially in, you know, Northern countries or countries like Germany, which are really

00:48:33.600 pacifist. But at the same time, uh, you know, it's not like there has been a real

00:48:40.140 choice between the two options. And, uh, you know, because I, you know, I read and I, I

00:48:47.940 heard Trump criticizing NATO, but you know, it, it's both a shield and, and a sword at

00:48:55.260 the heart of Europe. Yeah. And, you know, because, um, if, if America left NATO and, or

00:49:03.680 if NATO was dismembered, which would be good and bad at the same time, um, it would mean

00:49:11.100 that, uh, maybe it's close to 100,000 soldiers, uh, in Germany, I think American

00:49:18.100 soldiers. And, uh, maybe it would at last, uh, give the opportunity to Germany to build

00:49:26.660 a real army. And, uh, you know, it's really, uh, it's, we've reached a stability. It's the

00:49:32.800 stability where America wants to pretend that it's not an empire.

00:49:36.980 It's not an unsound stability, a bad stability. And, uh, you know, it's really ridiculous

00:49:42.160 because Germany is one of, um, you know, they produce some of the best weapons that they

00:49:48.900 export all over the world. And, uh, but they can't have an army and, you know, it, it would

00:49:56.820 just take, uh, you know, a withdrawal of the, of NATO and you would get a German army. And

00:50:04.460 I, I think the public opinion would shift, you know, it's, it's easier to be a pacifist

00:50:12.020 when you don't really have the choice. And, uh, I think, but at the same time, I think

00:50:17.080 it's a little more ambiguous actually.

00:50:18.640 I'll be short, but, uh, in a way I support NATO, not, uh, you know, the way it is, but,

00:50:26.680 uh, I like the idea that, you know, there would be a transatlantic force that would unite

00:50:32.760 Western countries. Uh, the problem being that it's not defined that way. And that's why

00:50:38.360 you get Turkey in the mix.

00:50:40.700 Well, that's, that's the same problem with the EU. It's a great concept. It's the execution.

00:50:46.440 Yeah. No, absolutely. I, I think we're all on the same page. I, I might be a little more

00:50:51.520 critical towards Europe, but then, then an equally critical to the United States at the

00:50:55.140 same time. In America, we, we've had this stability, uh, in the, in the post-war era,

00:50:59.960 the beginning of the cold war, let's, let's just say 1950 onward. And it's now kind of

00:51:05.600 cracking up, but we've had the, we've had this stability where America, because, because

00:51:10.700 we're not, we don't, we want to have this born to kill and peace sign empire. Like we

00:51:15.100 want to, we, we're going to have an empire, but we're going to pretend that we're not

00:51:18.500 imperialists and that we're doing this for freedom and God and, and you know, all that

00:51:23.180 kind of stuff. Uh, but then at the same time, like, as you're saying, like Germans and,

00:51:28.860 and, and, and all Europeans, like they, it's, it's easy to be a pacifist when you know that

00:51:33.240 you don't have to like ultimately confront an enemy. And, you know, I almost think that

00:51:38.700 we've reached maybe this point of European decadence. And again, I don't like, uh, criticizing

00:51:45.140 Europeans. I, I, I like criticizing Americans. I feel like I should do that, but you know,

00:51:49.520 criticizing Europeans where it's my role. That's why I bring you on here. Yeah. Um, but it's

00:51:54.860 almost like a point where even if America pulled out, like if Trump goes full Trumpian

00:51:59.500 and says, Oh, we're, we're just ending NATO. You guys defend yourself. Um, it's almost

00:52:03.960 like Europe has reached a state of decadence where they wouldn't even step up to the fight.

00:52:07.720 And I, you know, I, I, I, I hope that that's not the case. I would certainly hope.

00:52:13.800 I'm not sure about it. Um, so I am more pessimistic than Romain. Wow.

00:52:20.180 You see, things happen. Uh, you know, I, I always say I'm pessimistic on the short run and

00:52:27.240 optimistic on the long one, but you know, I'm not sure because, um, you know, it's,

00:52:35.540 it's, it's really a spoiled kid phenomenon, you know, this pacifist thing. And it was the

00:52:41.560 case in, you know, the interwar era. It was a case in the fifties and it's a case today.

00:52:47.440 Uh, I mean, I know it, it could also be applied to America. I mean, so of course you have a,

00:52:55.300 there's a strong American army with lots of American boys fighting overseas, but most of

00:53:01.360 the population is shielded from, you know, combat and death the same way that Europe is

00:53:07.960 and maybe even more because, uh, okay. So granted you had something like nine, 11, uh, 15 years

00:53:16.840 ago, but America is really far from a war situation, which is not the case of Europe. I mean, 20 years

00:53:26.120 ago, uh, in the Balkans, it was real and, you know, actual war. So, you know, I, I kind of

00:53:35.020 respect guys, uh, you know, joining the, the U S army, uh, even if they're deluded in, in some

00:53:43.080 way, but most of the American population is like Europe's. Yeah. When you go to Walmart,

00:53:49.880 do you really feel like you have, um, a people, you know, ready to fight if it's necessary? And

00:53:59.000 I'm don't, I'm not referring to the black Friday. The answer is yes. No. Yeah. If you remove the

00:54:07.120 cortex. No, no, of course not. No, we're, we're, we're perhaps even worse than Europeans. Europeans

00:54:14.780 at least experienced decadence with taste and style. We, we experienced decadence of

00:54:20.840 the, you know, that's why John is in Hungary. Right. Who lives the last days of the Habsburgs.

00:54:29.420 Yes. So the last gasp, but, but also, well, I mean, this came out really during the Iraq war,

00:54:36.200 but, uh, you know, I mean, basically what the U S military was, was like, you know, a hired,

00:54:42.540 you know, class of people, you know, to go in. Uh, I mean, that was always the irony of the people

00:54:48.980 who really gung ho over the Iraq war was, it was like, you know, they were very strongly committed

00:54:54.060 to the idea that America should be there. But personally, Americans, unless you had a member

00:54:58.540 of the family in the military, you know, you really didn't have to sacrifice anything. Yeah.

00:55:04.480 So it wasn't like, you know, in Vietnam to be in favor of the war, you know, if you were a young

00:55:09.820 man anyway, you actually had to be willing to go over there and fight. But in Iraq, you know,

00:55:13.840 but in the case of the Iraq war, everybody was very much, uh, you know, who was, uh, talking about

00:55:20.100 how, how great a crusade it was, you know, really was risky very little in order to do that. They

00:55:25.420 were like, you know, I, I have no great affection for Michael Moore, but there was that great scene

00:55:30.460 in Fahrenheit nine 11 where he stands outside of Congress and his congressmen are going by.

00:55:36.400 He's trying to give them, uh, army literature to persuade them that, you know, they should

00:55:41.260 send their kids to Iraq. Cause I think there was only one congressman who had a, I remember

00:55:47.060 that scene. Yeah. I thought it was, it was quite hilarious because some of them were, you

00:55:52.220 know, really got quite upset. Uh, but it was the truth. Yeah. It was like a, the Iraq war was

00:55:58.780 kind of, and, and, and subsequent wars, like the Libyan war or whatever that they're almost

00:56:03.080 these post-war wars. Maybe the first one of these was actually with Bill Clinton's, uh,

00:56:08.600 intervention in, in the Balkans was, uh, I remember there was a leftist who coined this

00:56:13.360 phrase, the, the laptop bombardiers. And it was kind of a post-war war where it's like,

00:56:20.480 oh, no one will die. I mean, you know, at least on our side, you know, we're, we're just,

00:56:24.940 we're just bringing about feminism and capitalism, you know, to these, to these benighted, uh,

00:56:30.600 you know, European nationalist types. Um, yeah, yeah. I think that's, uh, that's definitely

00:56:36.700 the case. So do you want to get back to, uh, the movie where we're analyzing the actual movie?

00:56:44.580 Um, yeah, I, I was thinking maybe we should, um, cover the shaving scene because, uh, you

00:56:53.820 know, in shining, there was a subtle reference to the Holocaust. Um, and of course in full

00:57:01.700 metal jacket, it's more obvious and more plain. I mean, they're shaved the same way. Uh, no,

00:57:09.240 I'm not going to make a Holocaust joke, uh, the same way they were in Auschwitz. And, um,

00:57:16.300 do you think there's a Jewish element to it? Um, in addition to the fact that Kubrick of

00:57:24.060 course is Jewish, but, uh, because the reference to me is obvious, but, uh, is there more to

00:57:32.360 it that maybe that, uh, every country is based on a mass murder of some kind, which in shining

00:57:41.640 is, uh, also, um, you know, there's a reference to the genocide, uh, of the Indians.

00:57:47.780 Oh, I, I, I want to definitely get into the, the connection between the cowboys and Indians

00:57:53.400 and, and the Vietnam war. I think that's also a major theme. Um, do you want to go, do you

00:57:58.460 want to talk more about the Holocaust? I mean, I, or do you, is there, is there something

00:58:02.320 beyond? I, I agree. It was more a remark and a question. Uh, I, is it just a visual reference

00:58:10.400 or is there something deeper? And with Kubrick, we know it's always deeper than just, uh, you

00:58:17.900 know, a passing reference. Maybe, I don't know if the meaning is that, you know, uh, America

00:58:24.960 as a country is based on mass murder or if you need to eradicate, uh, you know, a kind

00:58:33.620 of humanity to, um, to bring a new one, which is, uh, a recurring theme in, in Kubrick, especially

00:58:41.180 in 2001. Uh, so it was a question.

00:58:44.820 I see it more as the latter. I mean, I, I, I think what you're saying about the Holocaust,

00:58:50.180 that that's a possible interpretation, but I always just saw it as more of a general,

00:58:54.480 uh, you know, portrayal of, of dehumanization that it's like the first phase in the stripping

00:59:01.660 away of their, their person at their civilian personalities. So, you know, like Richard was

00:59:06.460 saying before with the full metal jackets, I, I, uh, but you know, what you're saying

00:59:11.660 is entirely possible. I, I've never seen Kubrick. I mean, from reading his public statements and

00:59:18.640 his other films, he, I never got the feeling he was very hung up on the Holocaust like Spielberg

00:59:23.780 or somebody was, but, uh, who knows it's, it's possible.

00:59:27.000 Yeah. It's, it's, I think it's definitely there, you know, it's not, he's not hung up

00:59:34.120 on it objectively, but, but I, I, I think there's something going on there. I agree. You

00:59:38.160 in a way, it doesn't even matter what Kubrick's motivations were. I mean, you, you can't see

00:59:42.800 that and not have that reference there. Um, I, I was also thinking that that last shot of

00:59:48.840 the, the little prelude where they're, they're playing this country Western song about going

00:59:53.980 to Vietnam and then the, but then they're being dehumanized. I thought that was an

00:59:58.340 interesting, you know, juxtaposition. We can talk about the music in this film, which

01:00:02.540 is pretty brilliant, um, of these juxtapositions of, of pop songs and, and, and visuals that

01:00:09.080 are, uh, strikingly opposed, but so you have this dehumanization, but then it's given like

01:00:16.300 a Southern twang, you know, to it and, and Southern hospitality. And then it's kind of

01:00:20.740 interesting that final scene, he shows a very, a still shot of all of the hair mixed

01:00:26.740 up together on the floor. Um, which is also very interesting. It, it, it almost seemed

01:00:35.220 to kind of like that, that race mixing aspect of the Marines itself, where it's like, you

01:00:39.940 know, it doesn't matter if you're a, a kike or a nigger or a greaser or a spick, you're

01:00:45.020 all equally worthless and you're all just kind of like lying on the floor there.

01:00:49.960 Um, I think that's there. I think the, the definitely the more overt, uh, reference

01:00:55.960 is, uh, to Cowboys and Indians and to the, uh, the figure of John Wayne that like, is

01:01:02.880 that you, John Wayne? Which it's kind of an interesting thing because the Joker repeats

01:01:08.600 that joke. It's not an actual quote from any film. It, you know, it's, it almost sounds

01:01:14.280 like it is, but it's not, it's, it's just, it's this kind of question out there. Is

01:01:18.080 that you, John Wayne? Like, is that you, uh, you know, exemplar of American masculinity

01:01:25.360 and also maybe a kind of callback to, um, the, the, the genocide, which, you know, again,

01:01:33.480 gosh, I'm going to be accused of sounding like a heart, you know, a bleeding heart leftist

01:01:37.480 by saying this, but the genocide that really does, that, that really is at the heart of

01:01:43.140 the, of the foundation of a European country on the North American continent, you know,

01:01:47.880 I mean like one people and civilization lost and another one predominated. And, you know,

01:01:55.380 you can't, I mean, you can't go to a, an Indian reservation and not today and not recognize

01:02:01.760 that there was a genocide. The, the Indians who are still around living in, living in

01:02:05.940 Indian communities are, are totally demeaned and humiliated, uh, you know, at this point.

01:02:12.580 Um, there, there are also some little things, the, there's a movie theater that occurs throughout

01:02:18.660 and it's this, uh, they're playing a Jap, excuse me, a Vietnamese, uh, translation of Red

01:02:24.720 River, which is Hawks film about, you know, a cowboys and Indians clash. It's starring John

01:02:31.120 Wayne. That's going on in the background. There's a, there's that famous scene where

01:02:34.860 you have like almost Kubrick himself filming the soldiers. And as he's, he's passing by,

01:02:40.580 you're following him as well. And as he's passing by, um, you get, uh, uh, their, their reaction

01:02:47.480 like, Oh, welcome to Vietnam, the movie. I think Cowboy says that, which is pretty funny.

01:02:53.100 And then, you know, it's like, uh, we'll be the cowboys who will play the Indians. The

01:02:57.600 gooks will be the Indians. Uh, and, and it's, it's, it's definitely kind of playing with

01:03:02.700 that. And, and I think there is a kind of loss of, of innocence. I mean, uh, be just

01:03:07.260 because I, I mean, I, I highly respect John Ford. I, I hope, um, not a lot of people in

01:03:13.620 our, uh, world know John Ford movies, but I think maybe we should do the searchers at

01:03:19.400 least. Um, but the searchers is a highly ambiguous film, uh, as well. I think in a way

01:03:25.920 like we, we imagine John Wayne is this expression of just pure American masculinity, but, um,

01:03:33.400 I, I think you could, uh, that, that movie, what it's saying in a way is that John Wayne

01:03:39.100 himself, very, very similar to, uh, sorry, I got a phone call there. Very similar to, um,

01:03:46.000 the, uh, the, the, the message of full, full metal jacket, where you're, you're stripping

01:03:50.660 down your humanity and you're getting to this primal killer, this other within yourself,

01:03:54.720 uh, the same goes for John Wayne. I mean, he, he becomes a kind of savage Indian in order

01:04:00.560 to kill the Indians and, and John Wayne wants genocide. I mean, he says that explicitly.

01:04:06.000 Um, well, another interesting connection as far as full metal jacket goes is John Wayne

01:04:10.800 made that film, the green berets, which I think was one of the few Vietnam war films made during

01:04:17.240 the war as what you would expect of a John Wayne film about Vietnam, because it's, you know,

01:04:22.420 he tries to depict it as in a very simplistic good versus evil way. So it's kind of like,

01:04:28.620 uh, you know, that's like the idea, John Wayne is the idea of what these guys probably thought

01:04:33.980 the war was going to be, but then they get there and it's actually, you know, they're in

01:04:37.820 this kind of nihilistic realm where there's no right or wrong and, you know, everything's

01:04:43.180 just about, you know, who's stronger basically.

01:04:45.860 Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. I was just thinking to, to go back to this theme of, uh, of the,

01:04:52.880 the two, you could say they're two halves. It's kind of like the first third and the second

01:04:56.700 two thirds. Um, but they, they, they do have these recurring themes or when you, when you

01:05:01.540 first enter the camp, um, of, uh, of where Cowboy is in his platoon, you enter through this

01:05:08.560 circular gateway kind of, which is a lot of people have talked about that as being like a film

01:05:13.520 lens that Kubrick is, you know, referencing himself, but, but Cowboy's shaving. Uh, you

01:05:20.180 know, it's kind of interesting. You, you keep meeting these people as they're shaving down

01:05:23.980 themselves. Again, I, you know, with, with Kubrick, maybe he didn't even intend that, but

01:05:29.900 he, but he kind of did subconsciously or something, you know, there's, Oh, I'm sure he did. I don't

01:05:34.060 think, like you said before, there's any accidents in a Kubrick film. Yeah. Like he, when he,

01:05:38.660 when he told him to do that, he's like, Oh, let's have you shaving. It's, it's a kind

01:05:41.700 of callback to the, to the early, the, the, the, the, the, the time when you first see

01:05:45.560 these people and they're being, they're being dehumanized and they all do kind of blend in

01:05:49.500 with one another. Um, you know, these, these different characters. Um, but, uh, yeah, no,

01:05:57.520 I, I think that is, you know, that, that is there where it's, it's like you're, you're

01:06:01.920 reenacting in Vietnam, you're reenacting this Cowboys versus the Indians myth and you're, you're,

01:06:09.620 you're doing it again, but this time you, you see it up close and it, and it's chaotic and

01:06:14.180 meaningless and, and, and so on.

01:06:22.360 Yes. Yes. I agree. Is there anything we, uh, is there anything we missed? We need to talk about

01:06:29.360 Mickey mouse. Yeah. Well, which the first time, I think the first time it occurs in the film

01:06:38.080 is when Hartman comes into the head to confront Pyle and he says, what in the hell is this Mickey

01:06:46.200 mouse shit? Yeah. Uh, which of course, you know, that's like a foretelling of the ending of the

01:06:54.240 film. Yeah. That's a good catch. I forgot he said that, but that's, and, and it's also shit is,

01:07:00.340 it's also this recurring theme of, I want to world of shit. I'm in a world of shit. And then when

01:07:05.640 people want to see comment, combat, they say, I want to get in the shit. I want to get, you know,

01:07:11.180 so it's this, and, and they're literally in, in one of those scenes, they're almost literally in

01:07:15.320 shit of their, they're in this like mud race or something and they're, and just mud is everywhere

01:07:20.460 and they're in the shit, you know, almost literally. Uh, yeah, I, I think the Mickey mouse,

01:07:27.780 because also when you, when you go to, um, the propaganda office where, uh, where Joker is

01:07:34.860 working, you, there's these Mickey mouse in the background, whenever they show Matthew Modine,

01:07:40.160 there's a little Mickey mouse, two of them, I think the characters, um, and there's some other

01:07:44.820 little cartoons. There's this one shot that's like a 300, 360 degree movement shot. And you see Mickey

01:07:52.300 mouse, you see this kind of oriental fan on the wall, which, which seems almost like something

01:07:58.580 out of Madama butterfly or something. I, I, you know, almost like our, our view of Asians or Snoopy,

01:08:04.620 uh, as well as a kind of, kind of thing. Um, and then, you know, most famously, I think that this

01:08:12.200 is the scene where I felt like I got the movie and I got what Kubrick was saying, which, because it

01:08:19.820 it encaptured basically everything about the film in one scene, but it's the, the final scene of

01:08:26.120 they've killed the snipers. They're walking away. The jolly green giants are walking away from a

01:08:31.580 burning village and they're singing, uh, the Mickey mouse club theme song, um, which as a March.

01:08:40.240 And it, I think it encapsulated everything. There's the infantilization of these men,

01:08:47.240 you know, they're, they're singing a kid's song. Uh, it's hard not to see also the, the like

01:08:52.340 March of Americanism of your, you know, you're, you're destroying this, you know, I wanted to go

01:08:58.080 to ancient Vietnam, the jewel of the East and kill them all, you know, kind of. Oh, I love that line.

01:09:03.420 Yeah. To meet exotic people from an ancient culture and kill them. Um, you know, it's too,

01:09:10.700 it's too bad that they want, they'd rather, what is it? They'd, they'd rather be dead than free or

01:09:16.040 they'd rather be alive than free. Poor dumb bastards. Yeah. Right. But, uh, you, you have

01:09:25.200 this scene and it, and it's kind of like the whole movie where you, you have like the March

01:09:29.380 of Americanism of the Mickey mouse scene, Mickey mouse March, you have the infantilization

01:09:34.320 of all these men. Um, but you can also see it as an attempt to return to innocence. Like

01:09:40.500 they've just been through this cauldron of, you know, barbarism and it's, you know, an

01:09:45.900 attempt to recapture their, their innocence somehow. Absolutely. Well, he says at the

01:09:51.520 end, he goes, you know, I, I, I, I, the home, what is it? The homecoming fantasies of

01:09:56.380 Mary Jane rotten crotch, you know, kind of thing. And it says, I'm a woman had referred

01:10:00.940 to in the beginning. Yeah. Which is your days of finger banging old Mary Jane rotten

01:10:06.780 crotch through her pin. He's, he's over. Yes. Yeah. It's, it's funny because that,

01:10:13.380 that's almost like a, a vision of America and it's a rotten crotch and it's, and it's

01:10:20.320 Mary Jane, which I've, you know, it's almost like the Virgin Mary, which again is referenced

01:10:25.180 by a drill instructor Hartman as well. There, there's this scene that like, there's a sense

01:10:31.140 of, of America itself, like your mother, your, your home, your, you know, this, this

01:10:36.640 like little small town where you came from that it is rotting in its crotch, you know,

01:10:41.860 as we speak. Um, and, uh, yeah, I, I mean, I, I think that was definitely, uh, that, that

01:10:48.320 was definitely there. And then, but then at the other level of it is that, and this is

01:10:52.760 why I think Kubrick is a great filmmaker is, is the ambiguity, which is that, you know, and

01:10:58.820 this is my vision of the film, which is probably, I don't know, maybe it's not even that controversial.

01:11:03.880 I think this is a pro war movie. Um, and at the end of the day, like, despite all that

01:11:10.200 shit that we've just talked about, all of these men are coming together as men and experiencing

01:11:16.900 themselves in a real way as men, like they are bonding tribally. They're, they're bonding

01:11:22.280 in a, in a, in a, in a, you know, Jack Donovan type, type manner. And they're, they're getting

01:11:28.680 closer to their, their inner world, their inner self and for maybe for the first time. And

01:11:35.060 so it's, it's hard not to even look at that scene and want to be there.

01:11:40.420 Yeah. Yeah. I, I, I'll, I'll confess that, uh, I mean, I'm, I'm really too old for it now,

01:11:46.500 but in some ways I do regret that I'll never get to experience that. Uh, uh, you know,

01:11:52.980 I mean, I've never been in the military either. And, uh, but I, you know, I, although I'm sure

01:11:57.440 in some ways it would be absolutely horrifying and also saltifying, but at the same time, you

01:12:03.100 know, well, I mean, these days, of course, war is so, so different. I mean, even, even from

01:12:07.960 Vietnam, because there's so little actual contact between the soldiers and the, and the people

01:12:13.720 they're trying to kill these days. But, uh, you know, if you actually can get into that

01:12:17.920 situation, I've got to believe that it's, you know, you learn things about yourself

01:12:21.960 that, uh, well, there's a line from Apocalypse Now when, uh, uh, he says, uh, Willard says,

01:12:30.100 uh, he's talking about the, the military. He says, well, it lets you know who you are more

01:12:34.820 than some factory in Ohio. Uh, you know, I think that that is the thing about war. It's

01:12:40.800 horrible, but at the same time, it's, it's also a fundamental part of who we are in our

01:12:47.020 experience. And, uh, even though I'm, I'm in some ways, I'm very glad I haven't had to

01:12:52.420 experience it. In some ways, I also feel like my life will always be a little bit incomplete

01:12:56.540 since I never did.

01:12:57.800 You never face death. You know, what is it? You only live twice, once when you're born and

01:13:02.800 the second time when you face death and the, you confront death. Um, and, and those, those

01:13:09.020 people have confronted death. I mean, they've experienced an existence in a way that we,

01:13:13.140 we haven't, um, we have, we've not been the first kids in our block to get a confirmed kill.

01:13:19.980 Well, another, another line that I really love, uh, in that scene where I forget his name,

01:13:27.060 uh, the guy who unveils the dead Viet Cong and then he kind of gives this monologue, but one

01:13:33.520 of the, one of the lines I've always loved, he says, uh, these people who we wasted here

01:13:38.160 today are the finest human beings we will ever know, which you think it's funny, but when

01:13:43.420 you really think about it, they're actually saying like, you know, actually these, these

01:13:47.360 people who were trying to kill and they're trying to kill us, you know, we actually understand

01:13:52.280 them more than, you know, the people we left behind at home. Uh, you know, it's like the

01:13:58.140 brotherhood of war in a sense.

01:13:59.900 Yeah. Yeah. You're actually in some ways you're more connected to your enemy than you

01:14:04.700 are to, uh, you know, the people you're allegedly fighting for.

01:14:08.940 That's the thing. I, I would not start this podcast by saying this is a pro war film because

01:14:14.140 I think people would then misunderstand me and they'd be like, Oh, Richard, wow. He, he

01:14:18.240 must be in support of Vietnam and he loves this. So like he loves Americans destroying other

01:14:24.020 cultures. I'm like, no, I don't. I think Vietnam was stupid. I think all these subsequent

01:14:28.060 wars are idiotic, but, um, but I'm not going to also deny the, the reality of, uh, of the

01:14:35.600 fact that there is a killer in us and that in a way that's a, that's a more intense and

01:14:40.300 a more real version of ourself than the one sitting here recording podcast.

01:14:45.820 Um, but, um, but, um, but I guess we can only, maybe, maybe a subsidiary question would

01:14:55.760 be, um, almost 30 years after it has been released. Uh, and let's not forget that the

01:15:03.400 cold war was not over when, uh, all these Vietnam war movies were, were shot. Uh, did America

01:15:12.240 really lose the Vietnam war because now there are Vietnamese kids, uh, wearing, uh, you know,

01:15:19.780 Mickey Mouse, uh, ears, you know, and even if, uh, the Viet Cong won in 75, then, you know,

01:15:29.840 on the long run, they lost. And, uh, and no, now China is formally, uh, communist, but is

01:15:37.780 really capitalist. And there are many other examples like that. So, yeah, I think that's

01:15:43.900 very insightful. It's, um, you know, it's maybe, of course, not what Kubrick wanted to

01:15:50.680 say. It's not the subject, but with 30 years, you know, from the time it was shot, we, we

01:15:57.800 can certainly see that, uh, you know, I, I don't agree when, you know, it was not really

01:16:04.600 a defeat for America and nothing was really at stake and it was not an American soil.

01:16:10.940 I really heard America's pride. Yeah. I mean, it had a catastrophic impact on American culture

01:16:16.700 and I think also our international reputation at the time. Yeah. There's no question about

01:16:22.540 it, but on the long run, did America really lose? I'm, you know, we, we won them over through

01:16:29.860 passive nihilism basically. And if you compare, uh, there's a body count. If you compare the body

01:16:36.780 count in this war, I think it was 60,000 American soldiers who were killed. And on the other side,

01:16:43.720 it's 2 million, uh, maybe equally between the North and the South. But, uh, I mean, Vietnam was, uh,

01:16:52.000 you, you see that in, um, maybe more in apocalypse now than in, um, in full metal jacket.

01:16:59.860 Of course, because, uh, of this, uh, this studio, but this London studio, but, um, you know,

01:17:07.560 all the, the architecture and the, the art that was destroyed during this war was, uh, really horrendous.

01:17:15.820 And, uh, it was even worse in Cambodia, actually. Um, so, you know, I.

01:17:22.320 It's one of the, the frightening things about what America is, I think, is that even when, you know,

01:17:29.000 somebody is our mortal enemy and, you know, even in the case of Vietnam where they win,

01:17:33.480 they still end up becoming part of the liberal order. Yeah. Well, I mean, that's the thing.

01:17:38.680 It's like a zombie, zombie power. Yeah. Well, that, that's what, that's the, that's the other

01:17:44.180 aspect of, of Americanism. And I think we are kind of at the end of something. It's not where,

01:17:49.440 this is not the beginning of Americanism, but, but it, it, or the, the liberal American paradigm,

01:17:56.180 you know, the, the, the, the second political theory, I guess, and, and to use Dugan's, um,

01:18:02.220 terminology, it still is dominant. And there's no really, there there's, or excuse me, there's

01:18:08.940 the third political theory in Dugan's. Yes. Communism, fascism, and liberalism. Um, but there,

01:18:14.900 there's, there really isn't the fourth political theory is a big question mark. I mean, there,

01:18:18.700 there's, you know, there, there's some people who are taking a different path. I mean, China

01:18:23.180 is taking a different path in a way, but I agree that it's, it's still taking a consumerist

01:18:29.740 pacifist, uh, passive nihilism path, even if it's slightly, you know, parallel. Um, but there's

01:18:37.560 really no other way. Like the, all the, the, the, the, the counter, the, the, the alternative

01:18:43.900 to, uh, nihilistic Americanism is, is a big question mark. And there, there's no one out

01:18:51.440 there that really has something else. Like there's, you know, the, the. Including Russia.

01:18:56.780 Yeah. Even including Russia. Cause Russia is a very, as you could say is a very similar

01:19:00.840 thing. Like they're, they obviously Russia.

01:19:04.020 There are Starbucks coffee joints in, in Moscow.

01:19:06.820 Exactly. People want, people want to get rich and so on. And you, and you could also

01:19:11.760 actually take, go back even further and say that, that communism and Americanism were kind

01:19:15.980 of like twins separated at birth. I think is what Tomaslav Sunish says. They were kind

01:19:20.660 of, you know, twins in the womb and the different paths. But yeah, Russia, obviously, I think from

01:19:25.840 our perspective, we see Russia as, um, better and resisting this, but, but, you know, if you

01:19:31.380 step back a few paces, you see it as just a parallel path, you know, towards this and, and

01:19:36.200 other nationalist movements, like I, the, the Scottish nationalists, they're, they're not

01:19:40.480 offering some new way or something. They're just, you know, God, no. Yeah. And so it's

01:19:45.180 like, no one has it. I think, and I'm, I'm trying to be in a way very self-critical as well.

01:19:50.140 Or even Islam, actually.

01:19:52.240 Right. Even, wow.

01:19:53.400 Islam is, Islam is more, uh, you know, it's, it's like the bully, uh, on the school, you

01:20:00.360 know, on the schoolyard, but, um, um, you know, it's, it's just a negative reaction to,

01:20:09.360 to the West or to America.

01:20:11.560 ISIS is, is kind of like an extreme net. It's like a extreme photographic negative of,

01:20:17.800 of, of Western Catholics.

01:20:19.340 Even his flag is negative, right?

01:20:20.380 It's like a parody of us in a way.

01:20:21.880 Yeah.

01:20:22.500 It's like they're sitting there going, well, how can we be the opposite of everything that,

01:20:26.100 that the West is?

01:20:27.140 Right.

01:20:29.940 Right. No, I, I mean, it is, I, I wonder, um, I, I wonder if there is another paradigm.

01:20:36.440 I mean, it's, it's...

01:20:37.560 Atlantis.

01:20:39.560 I'm kidding.

01:20:41.540 And Kubrick is getting at this. I mean, we haven't done 2001 yet, but we have, but that,

01:20:45.580 that is that you can only imagine the new paradigm as like a, you know, an infant in

01:20:51.040 the stars. I mean, we, we, it's, you, you can't, we can't really fully make it material

01:20:56.160 yet.

01:20:56.740 We have to evolve first.

01:20:58.720 We might have to even comprehend it right now.

01:21:00.740 We might have to die first.

01:21:05.020 You have to, you have to say a line like that with a little twinkle in your eye because

01:21:09.580 it's true, but then, yeah, it's a little...

01:21:13.080 You've convinced me I'm, I'm going to join ISIS.

01:21:14.980 This is the black pill.

01:21:21.680 Well, uh, let's, uh, let's put a black pill in this. That should be my new catchphrase

01:21:26.960 as opposed to, uh, bookmark. Let's just, uh, let's each take our black pill and go home.

01:21:34.140 But did you want to say anything about, uh, Kubrick? Like what? Full Metal Jacket is only

01:21:40.360 one of several films that Kubrick made about war and even it's, it's, it's very bad. But

01:21:47.040 if you watch his first film that he wanted destroyed fear and desire, it's actually very

01:21:52.380 similar to Full Metal Jacket in many ways, because it's about this band of soldiers, you

01:21:56.760 know, stuck behind enemy lines and, you know, they're trying to survive. And, uh, I mean,

01:22:02.100 it's very crude in comparison, of course, but it seems like it's, it's a theme that he kept

01:22:06.160 coming back to band of brothers. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's impassive glory and in a very

01:22:13.000 different way. And you could see it a little bit in Dr. Strangelove. I think, um, clock in

01:22:19.760 orange, you can see the droogs, the droogs, um, almost like a, in Burlinden, the only time

01:22:26.860 when, um, uh, Redmond is, uh, you know, uh, an accomplished man. It's, uh, when he's a

01:22:35.380 soldier, even if, uh, he's with, you know, social outcasts and, you know, people you wouldn't

01:22:43.240 like to have as neighbors, um, he's a real man when he's a soldier. And that's when

01:22:49.240 you know, he's, uh, that's just after that, that he's, uh, uh, uh, gambling all over in

01:22:56.280 Europe. But, um, uh, as soon as he gets to what he said he wanted, he becomes weak and

01:23:04.340 soft and he, he starts, uh, you know, unraveling. So that's, I think this theory of, uh, of in

01:23:14.140 a way, like all Kubrick movies being these, like a, it's like a Russian doll. Like they're

01:23:18.240 all nested, you know, in, in, in the, yeah. And, and you, you kind of like see, you know,

01:23:24.160 the, their aspects of Full Metal Jacket and Barry Lyndon, like what Romain was just saying.

01:23:28.660 And, um, when I was watching it, the, the scene where they beat up Private Pyle with soap

01:23:34.120 and a towel, um, it just, they're, the way they even come over to them, they, they look

01:23:39.340 quite like monkeys. They're actually hunched over. And I could almost hear, you know, see the

01:23:44.560 2000, the very famous 2001 scene of these monkeys in front of the obelisk going, you

01:23:49.240 know, smashing things. And, uh, you know, you, you have that, you have the, the thousand

01:23:54.320 yard stare takes you back to the shining. It takes you back to some, uh, to some other

01:23:59.820 films of that, you know, it's that the shadow opening shot of clockwork orange, right?

01:24:03.900 Exactly. Where he's giving you a thousand yard stare at the, you know, the, the camera pans

01:24:08.480 out. So there, there is this, this funny way where it's like Kubrick made this like one

01:24:13.340 film and it's, it's all like kind of mashed together. Uh, it's, it's very interesting.

01:24:20.360 I'm sure someone has done this, but if they haven't, we should do a, we should do a big

01:24:24.140 Kubrick mashup of parallel, parallel aesthetics that, that recur throughout his, his movies

01:24:31.500 like, like light motifs.

01:24:32.920 Yeah. Yeah. That would be, that would be, it would take a long time, but it'd be worth

01:24:36.820 it.

01:24:37.000 Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Definitely. Well, anyway, let's, uh, let's put a bookmark in this

01:24:42.960 one and, um, or a black pill. Let's all take the black pill. And, uh, which, which, uh,

01:24:49.380 which one should we do next?

RadixJournal - May 31, 2016

Born to Kill

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