Bowden! - 10 - The Homosexual Question
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Summary
In this episode, Richard and Jonathan discuss the politics of homosexuality, in general, and specifically, the role of the gay movement in the modern left, and how it fits into the broader social movements of the past and into the present.
Transcript
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Welcome to Vanguard, a podcast of radical traditionalism.
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Hello, everyone, and welcome back to Vanguard, and welcome back as well, my weekly partner
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Well, it seems that the weather's extraordinarily mild, considering we had snow about 10 days
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We're being, at least in my neck of the woods, which I guess is literally a part of the woods.
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Today, we're going to talk about a very interesting, but certainly contentious and sometimes painful
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We're going to talk about the homosexual question in general, but also the politics of homosexuality.
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And, you know, I think when we take on an issue like this, and of course, we can't do it fully
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But when we take on an issue like this, I think it's often best to find an entry point
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in the way that it's most contemporary, relevant in contemporary times.
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And I think that is probably this politics of homosexuality.
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You know, as we were talking, Jonathan, off the air, when we were thinking about doing
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a podcast on the subject, you mentioned that the homosexual question as a political issue
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It might have been thinkable or becoming thinkable amongst the vanguard of the left during the
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But now it's not only thinkable, it's become a kind of shibboleth.
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And it's in the sense of it is a decisive issue for whether you think of yourself as on the
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Uh, also the gay movement is something that did not exist within, uh, recent memory yet
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now, again, is something that's quite powerful and something that is decisive, uh, in terms
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of, uh, where you fall on the left, right spectrum.
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Um, uh, so Jonathan, why don't we talk a little bit about this, this, this gay movement in general
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And let me just, to, to begin that conversation, I'll just relate a amusing anecdote.
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I, I would, uh, I used to live actually in a very, uh, hip neighborhood in Brooklyn and
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it was one in which on weekends, invariably, uh, you would meet someone, uh, probably around
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22, 23, usually a younger person, sometimes a cute girl, and they'd be out there trying
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to get you to sign a petition for this and that and probably collect your email address.
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And there, there are a lot of environmental causes and so on and so forth, some anti-war
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causes, but gay marriage was something that you would see probably more than any of the
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And, um, I, I would usually be a little bit provocative and when I, whenever they would
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talk to me of, you know, do you want to sign this in support of marriage equality, which
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I would say something kind of perverse, like, uh, no, I demand that we liberate gays from
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And they, they, they probably tell that I was joking a little bit, but I don't think
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And, um, so, you know, again, I, I think this shows the kind of, uh, formless and ever changing
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nature of the left, um, that it can at some point, uh, view bourgeois marriage as something
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it wants, that that's, it needs to liberate people from it as something it wants to destroy.
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Um, and then in other ways, it wants to fight for marriage equality.
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It's, you know, the left can always change like this, but Jonathan, why don't you talk
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about the, the role homosexuality plays in politics in general and the way that it fits
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It's a sort of been a hundred year story really.
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Um, way back in the beginning of the sort of last century, certainly the second decade
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of the last century, the 1920s, the Bloomsbury group in Britain was one of the few, few cultural
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sort of vanguard groups that were pushing for what would now be called an equality agenda
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And they were as under pressure as politically incorrect social conservatives are today.
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We've seen the total reversal in the sort of, uh, storm scape of the sky.
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All of the landmarks have remained the same and yet the atmosphere around them has changed
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A hundred years back, people with these ideas were, you know, under deep carbon.
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They were frightened for their careers and their reputations.
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If it was revealed, they had these sorts of ideas.
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They used to have a sort of masonry in which, in which they met by which I don't mean anything
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I just mean that they had not funny handshakes when they met, but they had ways of recognizing
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each other's views and they had extended circles and networking and contacts to keep their
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views separate from people who weren't as quote unquote progressive or in their terms as up
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And, uh, it's quite interesting because, of course, some of the great espionage scandals
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of the 20th century involving the security services of both Britain and the United States
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of America are rooted in these sorts of cultural networks because the Bloomsbury Group was a
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an open cultural network up to a point with closed features.
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But the Apostles Group at Cambridge University and its equivalent of Oxford University and
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its equivalent in certain colleges at London University was more of a closed elitist cultural
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And it was a communist circle, a general ultra-liberal ethos through which these circles floated.
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And it was very much a homosexual circle, one of the key spies and MI6, MI5 traitors in
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the later decades in Britain, Anthony Blunt, who went on to be the surveyor of the Queen's
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pictures, believe it or not, and was sort of pardoned and yet not pardoned and later revealed
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as a spy by Margaret Thatcher and stripped of all his various establishment honours.
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He was part of a homosexual circle that overlapped with these other circles of ultra-liberalism
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These were ideas which were totally at variance with the society in which they lived.
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The society was a conservative, in British terms, News Chronicle Society, where a sort
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of newspaper that's, Morning Chronicle Society rather, a paper that's long since defunct.
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I don't know if you can think of a pretty traditional, bourgeois, conservative newspaper in the United
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Maybe the New York Post Society, Wall Street Journal Society, I guess.
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Imagine that 10 times to 50 times more conservative than it is now.
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And this issue of all issues was a trigger issue, because it's an issue about which the
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majority of people who don't think about these issues at all have an instantaneous judgment,
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an intuitive judgment, a physiological judgment, a sort of naysaying by virtue of what they
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are, because despite the ideology that says that 20%, 40%, and more accurately in terms of
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the ideology, 10% are inverted or homosexual in sexual orientation, it might be as low as
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1.5% to 2% for either gender, which is a very small number of people.
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And yet, the politics of getting them civic equity has been an enormous struggle.
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And yet it's been inconducted when, in some ways, there was no real need to do it, in a
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At times, it's almost not been about homosexuals.
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It's been about the effect you can have on society by promoting them and it.
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Now, the so-called gay liberation movement has always existed amongst homosexuals themselves,
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but its heterosexual supporters, because the bulk of the left that supported them, of course,
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didn't share their orientation, but shared their desire to change society, absolutely,
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in all sorts of stages and at all sorts of levels.
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Traditional Marxism had very little to say about sexuality, about drugs, about the culture
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Marxist-Felanist regimes, of course, have been highly socially conservative and have been
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quite toxic about issues of decadence, and retained the ultra-conservative trade union
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attitudes that often prevailed on the old left at the beginning of the 20th century.
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When it's in opposition, it advocates the maximum degree of breakdown and debility, and
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But when in power, it reverses that and has a very socially conservative mantra.
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But to return to the movement itself, the movement didn't really become observable until
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the 1950s and 1960s, when it was part of the general current that reverberated within and
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beyond the 60s cultural revolutions that spread into the 1970s, the term gay and its etymology
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is quite interesting, of course, because technically it's a 19th century word, and it means a
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prostitute, or it means somebody who's louche and somebody who's decadent in their sexuality.
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In Victorian England, the term gay meant essentially a woman who was easily available for sexual usage.
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It's a famous punch cartoon from the 1840s, quite daring, given what we're told about the
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Victorian attitudes towards these things, of two slattons under a lamppost, and one says
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to the other, if you're so gay, why do you look so miserable?
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And the term gay meaning sexual outsider, mountebank, hustler, somebody who uses their sexuality in
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order to get on, somebody who is in some ways a sexual criminal, that was the original word,
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because of course its counterpart is straight, and in criminal jargon, those who are not criminals
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are straight, they're the ones who obey the rules, they're the nerds, you see, in this
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sort of quasi-criminal way of looking at things, this sort of underground man way of looking
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at things, the people who obey all the rules and stick to the lines, and who work for a
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living, and this sort of thing, are regarded as straight, or having gone straight, or not
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And this idea that one is different, and is transgressive, and is transgressive in the
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It's got nothing to do with being happy and carefree, as most people believe.
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So even the origin of the word is ideological, is deliberately ideological, and the whole movement
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was ideological because they decided to invert national socialist motifs for the way in
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So the pink triangle became a symbol of pride, and the inversion of stereotypical prejudices
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against them became an object of correlative in relation to their own identity, and that's
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The movement began in a very militant and vanguard way, and it softened over time because the
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bulk of homosexuals are not interested in militant vanguard politics.
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On the issue of marriage, traditionally, the gay movement was always opposed to marriage
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for homosexuals, believing that it was a bourgeois construct that heterosexuals engaged in,
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and the whole point of them was that they were different.
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They were different people who had a different lifestyle, and that bourgeois marriage was not
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part of it, and it's become rather uneasily, actually, the liberal left and the bourgeois left
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has claimed this space for itself, and the idea that a small proportion of them who wish
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to marry should have the right to do so outside church in civic ceremonies that go beyond civil
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It's largely an initiative of the bourgeois left.
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It appears far left to people on the other side, but they, on the whole, are relatively indifferent about it.
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They'll tick the box for it, but it's not something that they cheerlead particularly.
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Well, no, there's a serious split in the gay movement between the Andrew Sullivan type,
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and I'm referring to the journalist and blogger, the kind of neoconservative, neoliberal kind
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of guy, used to edit the New Republic, who's been out in front with gay marriage.
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I mean, he's kind of the conservative wing of, we just want to be bourgeois kind of thing,
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and there's obviously another militant wing of the gay movement that can't stand someone
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Actually, Justin Raimondo, who's an excellent anti-war blogger, he certainly despises Andrew
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Sullivan for his views on foreign policy, at least ostensibly.
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But there's also something underneath it, which was that he was part of a more radical,
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vanguardist gay movement in California that would loathe someone like Andrew Sullivan as
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a sellout or gay traitor or something like that.
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Although they have morphed over the years because the group that's advising the British
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government on homosexual marriage legislation, something that's being brought in tacitly
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Don't forget, we have a conservative-liberal hybrid coalition here.
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Yeah, I mean, I was just thinking through these things.
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I mean, one could say that the motivation is a far-left motivation.
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They truly want to just subvert and destroy the basic family structure with gay marriage.
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I don't think a lot of the wishy-washy liberals who support gay marriage and think it's nice,
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I'm not sure they have such totally negative motivations.
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I mean, it's simply a case that a lot of these people have a kind of gay friend and they think
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I mean, why has this become a shibboleth in the way that other things happen?
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I mean, legalization of drugs is not a shibboleth.
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What do you think the motivation is amongst heterosexuals?
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I think it's become a tokenistic thing to prove how moderately right on and progressive one is.
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The reason for its adoption by the British conservative government is purely political positioning
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He's always come from the center of the party in British terms.
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But it's like to posture as a liberal conservative who's not right-wing or reactionary on social issues.
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One of the ways he could run against his own party and prove his independence and the fact that he wasn't really right-wing
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but was a conservative of an allegedly modern character, a sort of civic neoconservative without the foreign policy accretions, if you like,
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was to champion homosexual marriage in the teeth of his party's sullen opposition to it because the Tory party doesn't like it at all
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and it's going to be a large-scale rebellion which may scupper his project.
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It's also considered to be a meaningless sort of gesture as well because hardly any of them want to get married.
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And so what it is, it's a chattering classes issue.
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If you had a vote on it, the vote would be quite close because the issue is being forced onto the agenda to such a degree
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that liberal attitudes towards it are much more prevalent than they used to be.
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There would be a majority against a marriage because they've got civil partnerships anyway.
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And there's a strong lobby that's opposed to marriage, particularly a Christian lobby,
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which involves the ex-archbishop of Canterbury and other people.
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So it probably won't happen under a Tory government, actually,
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but it will happen under a Labour government at some time in the future.
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It's become a shibbolist because heterosexuals wish to support tokenistic gestures that make them feel good.
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But let's talk a little more broadly about this issue.
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You know, I, for one, I find the homosexual movement to be absolute poison,
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something that is a part of a larger movement that I think is bringing about the death of the West.
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That said, I don't think that your average homosexual is someone who is, say, totally morally suspect.
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And indeed, I don't think that they can be changed.
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And I think it's a physical attribute, if not necessarily a genetic one.
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So I guess someone might view my position on this as laissez-faire and tolerant,
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or maybe I'm kind of like an older reactionary who just would like gays to be quiet about it and not have a gay movement.
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But I don't really want to go save them or investigate them or jail them or anything like that.
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But, you know, one of the reasons why I hold this view is that homosexuality is not new.
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It was not something that was invented in the 1960s.
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It's something that has always been marginal, although it's always been with us.
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And actually, I hesitate a little bit in even suggesting it was marginal.
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It's worth pointing out that when you read some of these great platonic dialogues,
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like the symposium, which is on the nature of love,
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those people are debating the nature of love of a young boy.
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And that's something that's shocking and a bit disturbing, certainly for me.
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I'm certainly, I imagine it's for every other reader.
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So, you know, in some ways, homosexuality has always been there.
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It's never been the, say, the mainstream of society.
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But it's had a larger and smaller role to play.
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I guess one might, someone might actually object here and say that that's homosexuality,
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which is something different than a gay identity, and that's certainly true.
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Looking back over the great thrust of Western history,
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what kind of role do you think homosexuality has played in this?
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You know, as I said before, it's always been there,
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and yet it's, you know, sometimes suppressed, sometimes ignored.
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Sometimes it actually was an activity that had a part in society.
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There was actually even an elite society, such as we see with the ancient Greeks.
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Yes, I think it's a physical manifestation, and it's always been there.
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It's always been important in one sense because it's played to elites.
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The elites of Western society have often been segregated along gender lines early in life,
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segregated by schooling, segregated before marriage.
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Marriage is often semi-arranged, not in accordance with romantic love ideas anyway.
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Aristocratic prerequisite, whereby your nanny and sisters and your mother,
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aunts and female relatives were really the only women that many young men met until they were 20.
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Even then, universities were segregated, at least at colleges,
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although you did get to meet the opposite sex at that time.
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So this hothouse atmosphere at upper class and upper class schools,
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particularly in Western Europe, especially in Britain,
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And the issue of the dandy and people who stand outside by virtue of style
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and the importance in the arts, where this minority has been extremely radically represented,
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if not overrepresented, but in relation to far.
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I mean, in excess of the representation in the arts can be 15, 20 percent, 35 percent, more.
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Oh, you know, if you go look at contemporary Broadway musicals or something,
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Or if you look at art history, when I was a graduate student,
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art history departments were 100 percent either female or gay male,
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So, yeah, I mean, it's tremendous in those areas.
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And yet, the percentage in the society may be actually proportionately very small.
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Except when they all group together, in particular locales,
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But then again, people wish to live with their own kind.
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One of the biggest tensions holding it back in Western society is Christianity,
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which Christianity has always been quite biblically literal about inversion and homosexuality,
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This is not to say that there's always been Christians who've had a liberal view about it.
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And the bark was largely worse than the bite if people were discreet.
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But at the end of the day, Christianity is one of the major sanctions upon it.
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And as secular Westerners struggle to get these civic equality measures onto the statute book,
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it's evangelical Christianity with a certain element of reactionary Catholic Christianity added in
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that's conducting the last stand, as it were, really,
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And although Catholics don't literally believe in the Bible because the church interprets for you what the Bible means,
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Protestants of any radicalism have to believe literally in the Bible
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because they don't have any overarching church structure to give their faith coherence.
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It's very important, indeed, for all three religions of the book,
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It's actually a central issue, which is why they tend to debate it so much,
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For the broader society, it's not really an issue.
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The bulk of heterosexuals would rather not think about it.
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Let's talk a little bit about this in closing of just your views on the physical nature of homosexuality.
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I know we were talking off air, and you think that this earlier view,
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which might seem rather intuitive or mystical or something,
00:24:10.500
that a gay man has a woman's mind, or maybe even a woman's brain,
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and vice versa for lesbians, that this might actually be correct.
00:24:26.180
I actually have a short three-fourths written blog article on this,
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I'll try to publish it coinciding with this podcast.
00:24:41.060
and this was actually done by an East German researcher,
00:24:47.340
and that is that there's a lot of evidence that homosexuality is not a genetic manifestation,
00:24:58.960
And it involves that when a child is in a womb,
00:25:02.520
they're subjected to a series of, just to speak rather colloquially,
00:25:11.880
And in a sense, one of them will determine the sex of the fetus.
00:25:19.240
Another will determine, let's say, the object of desire of the fetus,
00:25:23.340
that will kind of gender it of, you want to be with women.
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And then another bath will determine the kind of, let's say, gender behavior.
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And that sometimes in stress, and sometimes just simply randomly,
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that the fetus is not subjected to these individual baths of testosterone.
00:25:48.040
And so you'll have a lot of situations where, you know,
00:25:50.820
oftentimes you will have the stereotypical feminine man who's gay.
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He might even be obsessed with more interest in womanly things like fashion or so on and so forth.
00:26:07.240
But there are actually a lot of other different gay people.
00:26:09.440
Actually, when I lived in New York City, I remember walking around Chelsea.
00:26:16.340
And there were some of these, clearly a band of people who were openly homosexual,
00:26:23.620
They looked like they had been working out in the gym all day long.
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They were, you know, they were kind of prowling streets.
00:26:30.380
Not exactly the most reputable people or anyone I'd want to hang around with.
00:26:35.180
But anyway, they were clearly not wimps or, you know, lady men or girly men or whatever.
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They were quite masculine, but they clearly had their object of desire was a man.
00:26:48.960
And so this basically, I think this way of thinking about it really can explain it.
00:26:54.480
And it can also lead us to, you know, at least have my view on the subject,
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which is that this is a physical component of their lives.
00:27:10.100
it might be a bit immoral in the sense that it's not supportive of the family.
00:27:14.640
And it can be, quite frankly, dangerous in terms of, you know, disease and so on and so forth.
00:27:21.340
But it doesn't really come from a moral failing of the homosexual himself.
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Or it comes from a, you know, let's just say physical failing.
00:27:30.340
It's a kind of subnormal, not exactly desirable.
00:27:34.540
And of course, when I say this, this will make me extremely unpopular with two groups.
00:27:38.640
Um, that is the homosexual movement, but also, uh, the anti-homosexual, uh, movement,
00:27:45.300
which is mainly Christian, uh, because they, the, the, the latter wants to believe that it is simply
00:27:50.600
a moral failing and therefore we can pray with them or save them or so on and so forth.
00:27:56.820
At the same time, if we had a different kind of society, um, one that had a, a more eugenic
00:28:03.800
principle, um, then I think we could make sure that these fetuses did receive proper testosterone
00:28:11.300
baths and that the percentage of the population of homosexuals perhaps went from say 2%, what
00:28:18.140
it is today, or maybe one and a half, uh, to zero.
00:28:20.620
Um, that we could actually, um, cure this, um, in a way.
00:28:26.620
And I, I think in some ways the, the gay movement wants to think of themselves as born that way.
00:28:31.460
They don't want to think of themselves as a choice.
00:28:33.800
Uh, but the, but once you start talking about, um, you know, uh, fixing them or, or, or finding
00:28:39.760
a way around them, I don't think they would actually like that at all.
00:28:42.860
So in many ways, I guess my view is completely unpopular, uh, but, but I actually think it's
00:28:48.780
a, it's a, it's a, but it's, uh, but I think it is a sane and rational one, but, uh, so while
00:28:56.320
I'm sticking to it, uh, but what is your view, Jonathan, obviously we're, neither of us are
00:29:01.280
scientists, so we're, we're simply speculating, uh, but, but what is your view on the, the biological
00:29:13.720
These, yeah, it was in the late seventies and sixties, seventies when this East German,
00:29:20.480
And it's interesting because he theorized that, um, you know, in, when you're doing scientific
00:29:25.560
reasoning, you want predictability and also you, you want disprove ability, so to speak,
00:29:31.120
um, that you could prove that this is incorrect.
00:29:34.400
The theory, you know, unlike say Freudianism, you can never really prove that Freudianism is
00:29:38.900
incorrect because, um, you would always say, oh, the reason why you think it's incorrect
00:29:44.060
is because you're, you have an edible complex and you're resisting it or something, which
00:29:47.980
is, you know, this Karl Popper, um, you know, very important philosopher talked about this.
00:29:54.860
Well, anyway, um, this person who did this research, he actually looked at women who were
00:30:00.760
in Dresden, uh, during the horrible bombing, uh, in the second world war of that city.
00:30:06.860
And you actually had a higher percentage of gay children.
00:30:09.840
And he theorized that this was due to the terrible stress that they were under, um, while they
00:30:15.820
were pregnant and that their fetuses were not, you know, uh, getting the proper testosterone
00:30:23.340
Um, and so it, it actually is a sign, it is a theory that has some predictability and,
00:30:30.540
Um, so I, I think it actually is a quite cogent in that way.
00:30:34.460
And, uh, uh, but yeah, so there is some evidence for that, but, but what do you think about that
00:30:39.180
in terms of, um, do you, do you think that old, the older view, which, which is a bit, let's
00:30:46.340
mystical or intuitive that, you know, a gay man has a woman's mind?
00:30:53.700
Do you, do you think it's a kind of mindedness that that's what, um, that's what homosexuality
00:31:00.440
So I think it's, um, in relation to these East German experiments, just to begin with
00:31:03.920
them, um, they were quite notorious because of course these were conducted by a communist
00:31:11.260
And, uh, many of the experiments were relatively benign, but some were not because most of them
00:31:18.180
And they were conducted because Honecker and the elite of the East German vanguard wondered
00:31:24.560
why homosexuality existed so much in East Germany.
00:31:28.020
And they were particularly thinking around the, um, the Brechtian theater that existed
00:31:34.880
And a lot of money had been put into the Berlin Ensemble theater, which still exists in a
00:31:42.100
Um, but not financed by German taxpayers in the same way.
00:31:47.480
Now they, they thought that homosexuality was a virtual perversion and they believed that
00:31:53.240
state socialism had been achieved in Eastern Germany and communism, the perfection of it
00:31:58.260
was well on the way, indeed was being achieved actively.
00:32:04.060
And with the literal mindedness that communists always have, they took groups of homosexuals
00:32:08.640
and asked them to write out their life histories.
00:32:10.980
The Stasi was incredibly interested in documenting everything and crossing every, uh, T and dotting
00:32:20.020
Um, others, they actually did experiments on by showing them heterosexual pornography and
00:32:26.020
some, which presumably had to be smuggled in from the West.
00:32:28.460
Uh, and seeing what their response to it would be and tying them to electrode machines and,
00:32:38.460
And a proportion of them, they, this was the Stasi, don't forget, a proportion of them
00:32:43.220
that were left, they went into a much more direct action, which was illegal, but was given
00:32:48.840
state sanction in that some of these individuals were shot and they, scientists operated on their
00:32:54.140
brains and they discovered, uh, something which has become normative in Western medicine in
00:33:01.380
the last 20 years, that heterosexual women and have the same brains as homosexual men,
00:33:09.160
because men and women have different brains and homosexual women and heterosexual men have
00:33:16.320
So this leads to the theory that you have the brain of a man in the body of a woman and
00:33:22.060
you have the brain of a woman in the body of a man.
00:33:25.440
And this is one of the later scientific theories, which seems to be justified by fact.
00:33:31.820
There's been a definite silence about this, uh, theory or this expostulate, as you could
00:33:39.220
Uh, it's often the, uh, the liberation movement concerned never wants to discuss their own
00:33:46.560
They want to discuss the dynamic agenda whereby they're given more and more civic and quality
00:33:56.640
Uh, you know, I didn't know this backstory and I, I'm glad to hear it.
00:34:01.280
Um, I, I, uh, yes, the, the backstory about the, these German research into, uh, homosexuality,
00:34:09.000
um, but yeah, I mean, again, this, this is, um, as we were saying, you can, you can really
00:34:16.220
alienate both sides when you take this position because, um, you know, I, I think, you know,
00:34:21.640
a lot of that research might've actually been productive.
00:34:24.280
I, of course, don't, uh, you know, Neil has to say, I don't support, you know, shooting
00:34:28.700
people and operating on them and looking at their brain.
00:34:32.920
Well, what, what happened is the West has replicated these experiments, but in a consensual
00:34:36.780
way by using the tissue samples and the brains of people who left their bodies to science
00:34:46.060
Well, that, that, yeah, that, that's certainly a lot better, but I, I think in general, you,
00:34:49.740
you will get to this point that, um, homosexuals want to be born that way, uh, to quote the,
00:34:57.840
this, you know, Lady Gaga song of the past year.
00:35:00.940
They want to be born that way in the sense that it is an identity.
00:35:06.440
It's how they define themselves, uh, maybe even the primary way that they define themselves.
00:35:11.420
Um, but at the same time, they don't want to ever think if you, I don't think homosexuality
00:35:16.220
is genetically based, but if, if it were, if someone started wanting to do gene therapy or
00:35:21.100
if you, you know, women wanted to select, um, if they, they, they could, you know, have a
00:35:26.120
select children, uh, maybe abort a child if they could do genetic testing and determine
00:35:32.900
Uh, needless to say, once you go down that road, uh, I, I think the, uh, the gay movement
00:35:38.380
would be completely horrified, much like the, um, uh, the, the women's, uh, rights and the
00:35:45.800
I've noticed that, you know, all, all of these women, you know, abortion is a, uh, you know,
00:35:50.420
a, a shivolous, as we were saying before, it's an unquestion, you know, you must support
00:35:54.340
that as unquestionable when they hear about abortions occurring in India, where, uh, they're
00:35:59.620
basically doing, uh, gender selection abortions.
00:36:02.820
You know, if they're having a child, they'll, they'll most likely having a female, the most
00:36:08.340
Uh, they obviously want to outlaw that they're quite pro-life when it comes to that.
00:36:12.960
So I, you know, a lot of these things is, is not so much the issue itself, but how the
00:36:18.240
issue is articulated, um, in the left, right political spectrum.
00:36:23.200
Um, and, uh, I, I think that's true, but both of that, the abortion case that I mentioned,
00:36:28.140
but, uh, but also the, uh, the homosexual issue.
00:36:31.280
Well, Jonathan, I think we've just scratched the surface, but, um, uh, do you have any other,
00:36:35.540
uh, lingering thoughts on the matter before we, uh, bring this conversation to a close?
00:36:41.420
And that's the extraordinary example that these experiments were done in East Germany, which
00:36:46.360
was a communist regime that supported by the Stasi secret police who used to finance and
00:36:51.960
arm the Red Army faction in the West Germany to spread chaos and mayhem.
00:36:57.140
And yet here we have the most illiberal, dysgenic type experiments being conducted, all in the
00:37:03.980
name of socialism, which would literally horrify the whole liberal left, all those people that
00:37:10.440
you met in, uh, Brooklyn out with their clipboards, getting people to, um, sign up for civic equality
00:37:17.820
Think what they'd think about those communist experiments in East Germany.
00:37:21.680
And yet it's part of the same continuum that they're on.
00:37:26.520
I mean, it's, it's something we, we've come back to this and in so many of our broadcasts,
00:37:30.900
which is the, the, the, the malleable Promethean nature of the left.
00:37:37.400
It's able to move and rethink itself and contradict itself and all of these ways in which it becomes
00:37:44.900
I think, you know, one of the major problems conservatives faces face is that they're simply
00:37:58.600
We're not, uh, we're, you know, again, we're, um, we're, we're trying to hold a line and
00:38:05.800
And I think in many ways, it's something we're trying to change with alt-right and, and similar
00:38:13.540
But Jonathan, thank you for being back on the program.
00:38:17.100
And, uh, it's, again, this is, we're only able to scratch the surface of these issues.
00:38:21.260
So I think we probably should take up the homosexual question again, um, in the foreseeable