RadixJournal - January 04, 2018


Bowden! - 12 - Understanding Spengler


Episode Stats

Length

43 minutes

Words per Minute

126.97037

Word Count

5,566

Sentence Count

195

Misogynist Sentences

5

Hate Speech Sentences

28


Summary

In this episode, Richard and Jonathan discuss the philosophy of Oswald Spengler and the ideas he had about the decline and fall of civilizations. They talk about his ideas about the nature of history, and how they relate to the decline of cultures.


Transcript

00:00:00.000 Welcome to Vanguard, a podcast of radical traditionalism.
00:00:24.660 Here's your host, Richard Spencer.
00:00:27.380 Hello, everyone, and welcome back to Vanguard.
00:00:32.560 And welcome back as well, Jonathan Bowden.
00:00:35.080 How are you, Jonathan?
00:00:36.300 Yes, hello. I'm very well. Thanks for having me on again.
00:00:39.400 Quite good.
00:00:40.400 Well, today we're going to talk about the philosophy of Oswald Spengler.
00:00:46.960 And in these podcasts, we've talked quite a bit about philosophers who are of interest to the new right or the alternative right, white nationalists, whatever you want to call us.
00:00:59.860 And we've talked about Nietzsche in particular, and Nietzsche is an interesting case in the sense that despite the fact that he has quite a few unfashionable ideas from the standpoint of our enlightened modern age, nevertheless, he's still quite popular.
00:01:20.680 Libraries, bookstores are well-stocked with titles on Nietzsche.
00:01:25.900 Spengler, on the other hand, who equaled or surpassed Nietzsche's popularity in Central Europe in his own time, has gone down the memory hole in a way.
00:01:38.100 It's hard to find a book by Spengler at your local bookstore, even a large one.
00:01:46.700 And though I think a lot of people have heard about him, they have some general notion that he was, you know, a pessimistic German or something like this.
00:01:55.980 They don't really know a lot about the man and his philosophy.
00:01:59.300 So we hope we can increase the level of understanding, certainly with this discussion today.
00:02:08.100 Jonathan, the way I wanted to start out this talk about Spengler and the philosophy of history is at a very basic level of understanding.
00:02:19.480 And, you know, I was thinking before we started this conversation that this idea of linear history is one that is really powerful for people.
00:02:33.040 And it also, it has something to do with Christianity in a way, but it's also something that's survived well into the post-Christian West.
00:02:44.260 And that is what I mean by linear history is what maybe could be described in just a simple phrase like it keeps getting better all the time.
00:02:52.640 This notion that, you know, we're the next step in history and this history leads to greater freedom, greater liberation, greater understanding, greater technology, so on and so forth.
00:03:10.880 And that, yes, there might be some bad things that happen along the way, but those are kind of speed bumps along this highway towards utopia or something like that.
00:03:23.500 And I think if we look at the world from the standpoint of technology, perhaps that is true.
00:03:32.460 You know, we've had the creation of medicines, from, you know, the automobile to the iPhone or whatever.
00:03:40.780 You know, obviously there is a way that things have been getting better.
00:03:44.880 They've been slowly perfected.
00:03:46.560 But, of course, culture and civilization, these are two very different things than technology.
00:03:54.520 And so, Jonathan, maybe we can talk a little bit about that just to get this conversation started and to get our listeners' minds the wheels turning, so to speak, about the philosophy of history.
00:04:07.300 It's just to think about that powerful assumption that it seems that everyone in the modern West, maybe even the modern world, left and right, both have.
00:04:17.640 And that is of linear history and how Spengler is really challenging that.
00:04:23.800 So what do you think about that idea, Jonathan?
00:04:27.300 Yes, I think that's a good way in.
00:04:29.140 And Spengler is a cosmologist of history.
00:04:32.260 He's a bottomist of history in a way.
00:04:34.400 He sees human cultures and their repentant civilizations very much like geological strata or the morphology of plant life.
00:04:45.180 They think they have a natural cycle, even a diurnal or seasonal one.
00:04:49.900 They have a brief flowering.
00:04:52.280 They have a spring.
00:04:53.580 They have a summer.
00:04:55.140 They have an autumnal phase.
00:04:56.700 Then they have a winter of the soul.
00:04:59.520 And then they die.
00:05:00.460 They literally atrophy and die.
00:05:03.060 And his belief in the death of great cultures, that cultures can be seen to come to an end,
00:05:08.880 or they can lie fallow for enormously long periods prior to some renaissance or kickstart,
00:05:14.660 is deeply troubling to the modern mind, which is addicted to the idea of progress and progressivism,
00:05:21.480 whatever its standpoint.
00:05:22.660 And Spengler's emotional register was profoundly melancholic and pessimistic.
00:05:28.620 And he once famously in Nun and Technique said that optimism is cowardice.
00:05:33.200 And there is a degree to which his view of history, which is these radial circles that overlap with each other,
00:05:42.400 rather than like a Vendag and a mathematics, a science with which he was familiar,
00:05:46.760 accords very much with his own view that things are cyclic and circular and turn back upon themselves.
00:05:59.260 And cultures go through various stages, which are inevitable.
00:06:04.080 And each stage follows from the other one and has the seeds of death in its own mouth,
00:06:09.180 in the sense that the thing would turn through the circle in itself,
00:06:13.160 like cultural decline away to merely being of archival and archaeological interest.
00:06:20.620 These are forbidding and sort of almost totalitarian insights of pessimism,
00:06:26.640 which don't accord easily with the 20th century.
00:06:32.160 If you look at a book like Neil Ferguson's The War of the World, for example,
00:06:36.800 which is an analysis of the extreme violence in Western and global society
00:06:42.080 in the century of the masses, the 20th century,
00:06:45.540 that's a mordant book.
00:06:47.700 It's an apocalyptic book.
00:06:49.500 It's a book which, in some ways, is opposed to the idea that things are getting better and better.
00:06:55.220 Yet at the same time, it doesn't feel emotionally pessimistic,
00:07:01.880 despite the fact that it's dealing on the whole with pessimistic criteria.
00:07:06.500 So Ferguson remains an optimist and a sort of bellatist of liberal methodology,
00:07:16.000 the belief that things can get better even if they turn out for the worst at a particular time,
00:07:22.080 which he wishes to express.
00:07:23.940 Spengler would have no luck with that.
00:07:26.340 Spengler believes that cultures are sort of caged in a way
00:07:30.140 and will wither and die on a floresce just as they sprout up to beauty
00:07:37.000 in accordance with the rhythm, which is closer to that of biological life than human affairs.
00:07:48.620 Before we get into his organic concept of history,
00:07:52.020 let's talk a little bit about his milieu, where he was coming from.
00:07:57.960 And I would like to talk about the milieu in his life in Germany
00:08:05.920 at the first quarter, first half of the century, 20th century.
00:08:11.260 But before that, I think it's worthwhile just looking at going back a little bit to the 19th century
00:08:17.260 and some of the philosophies of history which preceded Spenglers.
00:08:22.420 And I'm thinking, of course, of Hegel and Kant,
00:08:27.180 probably the two biggest figures in that philosophical school.
00:08:35.040 So maybe you could just mention,
00:08:36.740 what are some of the ways that Hegel, probably the most well-known, influenced Spengler?
00:08:44.400 In particular, obviously Hegel had a dialectical view of history,
00:08:48.360 which is certainly more complicated than the kind of
00:08:51.680 it's-getting-better-all-the-time linear view.
00:08:54.600 But nevertheless, it was a progressive view of history.
00:08:58.660 He actually felt that actually history was kind of coming to an end
00:09:02.260 with the Prussian state and so on and so forth.
00:09:06.640 So what do you think about, say, the influence of some of these great German idealist thinkers
00:09:12.880 that came before Spengler and how that impacted his notion of the decline of the West?
00:09:22.440 Yes, I think that they obviously affected it deeply
00:09:25.380 because they looked for systematic answers.
00:09:29.500 Right.
00:09:29.900 Unlike the neo-Kantian school that said there is no plan for history
00:09:33.860 and that all attempts to find a plan in history are artistic and subjective
00:09:39.820 and therefore historically worthless.
00:09:42.900 It's important to realise that for a proportion of critics,
00:09:46.880 Spengler has not just been an asthma, but has been fundamentally mysterious.
00:09:51.740 Because there are quite a few philosophical schools
00:09:55.080 that believe, whether it's on the left with Cambry
00:09:58.140 or it's on the right with Spengler,
00:10:00.980 that it's utterly pointless to have attempts at historical analysis
00:10:06.060 which are non-linear and which seek for an answer to the conundrum of history
00:10:11.880 that seeks to at least debate the things
00:10:14.920 and get it to answer questions about the nature of historical reality,
00:10:20.060 they consider that there is no plan.
00:10:22.840 There is nothing other than linear notion in this pattern of time.
00:10:28.100 And that any attempt to find a historical plan,
00:10:34.180 which is other than the received wisdom of a work,
00:10:38.380 is fruitless.
00:10:39.680 They would consider a work like
00:10:41.400 The Decline of the Old Roman Empire by Gibbon
00:10:43.500 to be perfect in its way
00:10:46.300 because it takes the Roman Empire as its topic
00:10:53.040 where you have an enormous unfolding viscally-distorical time
00:10:58.420 and you have the idea that you have many triumphs and many disasters
00:11:03.360 but the end is partly a projection of the beginning.
00:11:08.540 So you have a biography of a society.
00:11:12.740 That's acceptable.
00:11:14.560 What isn't acceptable from this school of thinking,
00:11:17.640 which is the current one in academic orthodoxy at the present time,
00:11:21.060 is to try and find a key philosophical agency to history,
00:11:26.280 to interpret history,
00:11:28.080 that history has a meaning
00:11:29.240 in the way that Thomas Carlyle believed that history had a meaning
00:11:32.460 in the 19th century.
00:11:34.500 And Spence is addicted to finding a meaning in history,
00:11:38.120 which puts him outside of several of the major historical schools
00:11:41.240 to begin with.
00:11:43.620 There's also the fact that he is self-taught
00:11:46.920 and was a sort of autodidact.
00:11:51.060 And a sort of terribly gifted bilitant,
00:11:54.660 as somebody not completely kindly once said.
00:11:58.300 And history is an area par excellence
00:12:00.280 which only academics really believe that they're entitled to write.
00:12:05.460 So in two areas,
00:12:08.020 academicism and search for ontology in history,
00:12:14.280 search for teleology,
00:12:15.760 the belief that there is a prospective future
00:12:18.860 which can be determined,
00:12:21.580 as Marx believed in a totally different way,
00:12:24.140 and mapped out.
00:12:25.560 Those lie outside of Spence's purview
00:12:27.860 and yet make marginal
00:12:30.120 his historical essay,
00:12:32.700 his attempt
00:12:33.400 at finding ultimate meaning in things
00:12:36.080 in the two-volume enormous work
00:12:38.420 with The Clown of the West,
00:12:39.460 published in 1918 and 1922.
00:12:43.000 So he draws on those primary idealists like Hegel.
00:12:47.800 But I don't think there's much comparison,
00:12:50.260 to be frank,
00:12:51.540 when you get to the work.
00:12:54.080 Because Hegel believes that history
00:12:55.780 will reach its fulcrum
00:12:59.100 and its determination
00:13:00.140 in the idealistic presentation
00:13:02.500 of the Prussian state
00:13:03.700 in history,
00:13:06.600 as a sort of being in history.
00:13:09.340 Whereas for Spence,
00:13:10.980 the Prussian state,
00:13:12.880 although he wanted Germany
00:13:14.040 and the Germany of his time
00:13:15.120 to dominate Europe,
00:13:16.760 was just a part of the West
00:13:18.280 and a part of the cycle of the West
00:13:20.520 that would be doomed to decline,
00:13:23.140 as all of the great civilizations,
00:13:25.060 the Arab,
00:13:26.160 the Eastern Chinese,
00:13:28.480 the medieval,
00:13:29.180 were doomed to decline
00:13:31.160 in their way.
00:13:33.680 Before we talk a little bit more
00:13:35.380 about Germany and his time,
00:13:37.500 actually,
00:13:37.900 I think it'd be good
00:13:38.700 to lay out
00:13:40.180 some of the basic terms
00:13:41.680 of Spengler's history.
00:13:43.780 And he talked about
00:13:46.360 a series of great
00:13:49.280 or high cultures,
00:13:51.440 and these included
00:13:52.360 the Magian culture,
00:13:55.480 which is, I guess,
00:13:56.240 a Semitic culture,
00:13:57.320 and the Apollonian
00:13:58.800 or classical culture,
00:14:00.100 and then Western
00:14:01.240 American culture,
00:14:02.860 which he described
00:14:04.740 as quintessentially
00:14:06.640 Faustian in nature.
00:14:09.600 So, Jonathan,
00:14:10.040 maybe you could
00:14:10.760 elucidate
00:14:12.160 some of these
00:14:13.360 big ideas
00:14:15.100 for our listeners
00:14:16.700 so that they could
00:14:17.680 have an idea
00:14:18.660 of his organic
00:14:20.900 historical sense.
00:14:23.920 just in particular
00:14:27.440 with those
00:14:28.400 three massive
00:14:30.340 cultures.
00:14:32.000 And again,
00:14:32.320 we're not talking
00:14:32.800 about epochs
00:14:33.640 because he's getting
00:14:34.740 away from
00:14:35.520 a sense of time
00:14:37.760 and he's more
00:14:38.680 putting it in terms
00:14:39.400 of culture
00:14:40.220 and a people,
00:14:41.120 a civilization.
00:14:42.580 So maybe you could
00:14:43.400 explain those
00:14:44.600 basic concepts
00:14:45.380 concepts and then
00:14:45.940 also just delineate
00:14:47.960 for our listeners
00:14:49.020 what he means
00:14:50.520 by the Magian
00:14:52.480 and the Apollonian
00:14:53.280 and then finally
00:14:54.400 the Faustian culture,
00:14:55.580 which he felt
00:14:56.500 was coming to a close.
00:14:58.860 Yes,
00:14:59.620 he thought cultures
00:15:00.340 were self-enclosed
00:15:02.120 and were organic
00:15:04.420 and were not
00:15:05.740 time-concentric,
00:15:07.380 although they had
00:15:07.960 a period or an
00:15:08.780 expanse of time
00:15:10.540 associated with them.
00:15:11.700 He sees the
00:15:13.220 Middle Eastern
00:15:13.700 culture as
00:15:14.400 essentially magical
00:15:15.420 and somewhat
00:15:16.440 sterile
00:15:17.120 and introverted
00:15:19.460 and flat
00:15:20.360 in the culture
00:15:20.960 of the desert.
00:15:22.660 He sees Greek
00:15:23.640 culture as
00:15:25.600 proportioned
00:15:27.900 and massive
00:15:28.620 in its sort
00:15:29.440 of architectural
00:15:30.240 and classical
00:15:31.020 relief.
00:15:32.460 He sees it
00:15:33.180 as less
00:15:34.660 dynamic
00:15:35.180 than the
00:15:36.460 Western culture,
00:15:37.420 more staid,
00:15:38.780 more
00:15:39.000 with a fixity
00:15:40.100 and a tendency
00:15:40.700 towards a
00:15:41.420 preternatural
00:15:41.960 order
00:15:42.400 and a
00:15:43.900 specificity
00:15:44.560 of sign.
00:15:46.040 The Western
00:15:46.520 culture,
00:15:47.140 which he's
00:15:48.180 most keen
00:15:48.800 on,
00:15:50.320 he sees
00:15:50.800 as a partly
00:15:51.320 diabolical
00:15:52.020 culture.
00:15:53.440 He sees
00:15:53.840 as Faustian.
00:15:55.780 He sees
00:15:56.280 as a mismatch
00:15:57.200 and a matching
00:15:57.900 of things
00:15:58.580 that don't
00:15:59.960 coherently
00:16:00.360 go together
00:16:01.000 in other
00:16:01.380 cultures.
00:16:02.860 He sees
00:16:03.300 it as a
00:16:03.720 culture of
00:16:04.180 immense
00:16:04.500 restlessness
00:16:05.580 and absence
00:16:07.360 of an
00:16:07.680 inner sense
00:16:08.200 of ease
00:16:08.780 and with
00:16:10.060 an extraordinary
00:16:10.660 desire for
00:16:11.400 self-transcendence
00:16:12.540 which is
00:16:14.080 a desire
00:16:14.640 to change
00:16:15.440 everything
00:16:15.840 again and
00:16:16.620 again and
00:16:17.280 again to
00:16:18.280 make it new
00:16:19.080 and make it
00:16:20.100 work and
00:16:21.620 make the
00:16:21.960 Western culture
00:16:22.520 the most
00:16:22.900 dynamically
00:16:23.620 aggressive
00:16:24.540 culture on
00:16:25.240 earth.
00:16:25.580 So is he
00:16:27.500 talking about
00:16:28.380 a mindset
00:16:29.420 with this
00:16:31.860 kind of
00:16:33.060 I hesitate
00:16:34.460 to use this
00:16:35.120 term but a
00:16:35.660 collective
00:16:36.060 consciousness
00:16:36.660 so to speak
00:16:37.360 what is he
00:16:38.820 amongst the
00:16:39.560 people that
00:16:40.780 is expressed
00:16:41.700 most fully
00:16:42.360 say in some
00:16:42.880 of the great
00:16:43.400 people of
00:16:44.060 civilization
00:16:44.740 or is that
00:16:46.600 a good way
00:16:46.920 to describe
00:16:47.420 what he's
00:16:47.740 talking about?
00:16:49.140 Yes it's
00:16:49.860 a sort of
00:16:50.400 a civilizational
00:16:51.880 construct of
00:16:52.720 culture
00:16:53.260 permeated through
00:16:54.880 the elite
00:16:55.540 as articulated
00:16:57.100 to and by
00:16:58.020 the masses
00:16:58.600 within the
00:17:00.120 particular
00:17:00.600 civics over
00:17:02.520 time.
00:17:04.000 It's
00:17:04.400 racially based
00:17:05.140 to an extent
00:17:06.020 but only
00:17:06.520 partly so
00:17:07.480 because his
00:17:08.880 positions are
00:17:10.180 sublimated
00:17:11.000 racialisms
00:17:11.940 whereby
00:17:13.380 although the
00:17:15.200 Semitic
00:17:15.660 largely goes
00:17:16.500 with the
00:17:16.800 Median
00:17:17.240 and the
00:17:17.920 Eastern
00:17:18.460 Mediterranean
00:17:20.960 largely goes
00:17:22.100 with the
00:17:22.980 Apollonian
00:17:23.560 and the
00:17:24.480 Western
00:17:25.300 is made
00:17:25.840 up of
00:17:26.440 most of
00:17:29.000 Europe
00:17:29.340 and ex-Europe
00:17:31.100 in the
00:17:32.220 New World
00:17:32.880 and the
00:17:33.540 far regions
00:17:34.120 of the
00:17:34.420 world
00:17:34.720 associated
00:17:35.840 with Western
00:17:36.620 imperial
00:17:37.060 conquests
00:17:37.880 and settlements
00:17:39.380 and North
00:17:41.120 America in
00:17:41.780 particular.
00:17:43.380 The notion
00:17:44.980 that they are
00:17:45.820 purely racial
00:17:46.660 is not one
00:17:47.320 that she
00:17:47.600 accedes to.
00:17:49.060 He has a
00:17:49.480 Nietzschean
00:17:49.920 concept of
00:17:50.560 race
00:17:50.960 which is
00:17:52.080 that race
00:17:52.500 is important
00:17:53.220 because breeding
00:17:54.900 is the
00:17:55.220 basis of
00:17:55.700 everything
00:17:56.200 but it's
00:17:56.980 too
00:17:57.220 rudimentary
00:17:58.140 for reasons
00:17:59.340 of analysis.
00:18:00.700 For analysis
00:18:01.280 you have to
00:18:01.780 look at the
00:18:02.220 culture and the
00:18:03.000 civics which
00:18:04.000 are created
00:18:04.660 by specific
00:18:06.220 races and
00:18:07.000 intermingled
00:18:08.200 the variants
00:18:09.880 of races
00:18:10.480 over time
00:18:11.440 and
00:18:12.600 pure
00:18:15.740 biology
00:18:16.280 is not
00:18:16.820 enough to
00:18:17.260 describe
00:18:17.700 man's
00:18:18.160 ascent
00:18:18.620 if indeed
00:18:19.220 it has
00:18:19.540 been in
00:18:19.920 ascent
00:18:20.460 rather than
00:18:21.440 the
00:18:21.560 withering
00:18:21.880 to death
00:18:22.380 of prior
00:18:23.560 and acknowledged
00:18:24.140 cultures
00:18:24.680 of whatever
00:18:25.180 beauty.
00:18:27.080 So
00:18:27.200 Spengler
00:18:28.800 is always
00:18:30.660 an unhappy
00:18:31.220 bedfellow
00:18:31.880 for various
00:18:32.520 people
00:18:33.020 because he
00:18:33.800 never fits
00:18:34.360 in with
00:18:34.880 people's
00:18:36.200 preconditions
00:18:37.120 and prior
00:18:37.600 suppositions.
00:18:39.500 There will
00:18:39.840 always be
00:18:40.220 attention
00:18:40.740 even with
00:18:42.340 the
00:18:42.480 racialist
00:18:42.980 right
00:18:43.360 with
00:18:43.640 Spengler
00:18:44.260 as there
00:18:45.320 is with
00:18:46.060 the left
00:18:47.460 over his
00:18:48.200 view
00:18:48.580 pessimistic
00:18:49.300 and
00:18:49.840 non-materialist
00:18:51.380 views of
00:18:51.800 history,
00:18:53.700 his
00:18:53.960 intuitionism,
00:18:55.900 his opening
00:18:56.800 to the
00:18:57.280 subjective
00:18:57.680 element in
00:18:58.320 culture,
00:19:00.000 his belief
00:19:00.660 in the
00:19:02.120 wintering of
00:19:02.600 the soul
00:19:02.980 of a
00:19:03.260 culture
00:19:03.640 and its
00:19:04.480 partial
00:19:04.880 decline
00:19:05.500 over time,
00:19:07.020 his
00:19:07.260 obsession
00:19:07.700 with the
00:19:08.020 conduct of
00:19:08.580 decadence,
00:19:09.240 all of
00:19:11.840 these
00:19:12.220 would not
00:19:14.040 render him
00:19:14.560 attractive to
00:19:15.160 a left
00:19:15.460 wing mind
00:19:15.900 at all.
00:19:17.440 But at
00:19:17.820 the same
00:19:18.180 time,
00:19:19.460 the liberal
00:19:19.860 progressive
00:19:20.340 sees
00:19:20.740 little in
00:19:21.240 him,
00:19:21.480 the man
00:19:21.680 of the
00:19:21.920 centre,
00:19:23.020 because he's
00:19:23.520 too morbid,
00:19:25.160 too
00:19:25.360 mordant and
00:19:25.960 pessimistic,
00:19:27.720 too
00:19:27.860 professorial,
00:19:29.640 and too
00:19:30.640 linked to a
00:19:31.200 prior theory
00:19:32.080 which cuts
00:19:33.520 against their
00:19:34.160 ingrained
00:19:34.620 optimism and
00:19:35.480 feeling that,
00:19:36.200 as you said
00:19:36.580 at the beginning
00:19:37.080 of his
00:19:37.400 tour,
00:19:38.260 the things
00:19:38.640 are getting
00:19:38.980 better and
00:19:39.480 better.
00:19:41.960 Jonathan,
00:19:42.760 why don't you
00:19:43.220 tell us a
00:19:44.000 little bit
00:19:44.540 about this
00:19:45.740 organic story
00:19:47.180 of Western
00:19:48.340 or Faustian
00:19:49.140 culture,
00:19:51.360 and its
00:19:53.300 origins after
00:19:54.540 the collapse
00:19:55.360 of the Roman
00:19:55.760 Empire,
00:19:56.480 and then how
00:19:57.800 he felt
00:19:59.060 that it was
00:19:59.720 declining and
00:20:00.880 ending in
00:20:02.200 his own
00:20:02.540 lifetime.
00:20:03.680 So maybe
00:20:03.920 you could
00:20:04.120 just give us
00:20:04.680 some outlines
00:20:05.900 of Faustian
00:20:08.160 culture's
00:20:09.180 birth and
00:20:10.840 flowering and
00:20:13.100 then decline.
00:20:14.600 What was he
00:20:15.100 talking about?
00:20:15.700 And obviously,
00:20:17.040 in order to
00:20:18.340 talk about
00:20:18.780 these things,
00:20:19.180 you have to
00:20:19.440 paint in
00:20:19.920 really broad
00:20:21.300 strokes,
00:20:22.540 but I think
00:20:23.420 that's good,
00:20:24.560 particularly with
00:20:25.260 a podcast like
00:20:26.500 this.
00:20:26.820 So give our
00:20:27.760 listeners a
00:20:28.500 sense of
00:20:29.960 the story,
00:20:32.100 this organic
00:20:32.540 story of
00:20:33.240 Faustian
00:20:33.620 culture.
00:20:34.680 Well,
00:20:36.260 I think he
00:20:36.620 thinks,
00:20:37.200 after the
00:20:37.780 collapse of
00:20:38.160 the Roman
00:20:38.320 Empire,
00:20:38.800 I think he
00:20:39.180 thinks that
00:20:39.940 the classical
00:20:41.180 world comes to
00:20:41.920 an end and
00:20:42.500 the medieval
00:20:42.920 world as
00:20:44.260 such begins,
00:20:46.080 that the
00:20:46.380 medieval world
00:20:47.320 is a static
00:20:48.220 and enclosed
00:20:49.780 civilization,
00:20:50.900 which is a
00:20:52.020 magical one
00:20:53.000 based upon
00:20:54.300 sort of
00:20:54.640 totem and
00:20:55.220 taboo,
00:20:56.440 and based
00:20:56.840 upon a
00:20:58.580 stiff and
00:20:59.840 regulated
00:21:00.460 cosmology
00:21:01.260 that is
00:21:02.620 only unsettled
00:21:03.620 by the
00:21:04.140 return of
00:21:04.700 classical
00:21:05.060 wisdom in
00:21:06.640 what becomes
00:21:07.520 the proto-
00:21:08.120 renaissance
00:21:08.740 and then the
00:21:09.960 renaissance.
00:21:11.360 And the
00:21:11.740 renaissance
00:21:12.180 inflames the
00:21:15.360 entire civilization
00:21:16.420 mentally and
00:21:17.300 culturally and
00:21:20.100 sends an
00:21:21.060 enormous
00:21:21.500 coursing sort
00:21:22.640 of torrent of
00:21:24.880 energy through
00:21:25.580 it, which
00:21:27.020 leads to an
00:21:29.360 unnapping and
00:21:30.360 an unfolding of
00:21:31.660 new visions
00:21:32.460 and new
00:21:32.900 vistas,
00:21:34.660 thereby we
00:21:35.300 see the
00:21:35.620 middle ages
00:21:36.100 replaced by
00:21:37.960 a post-medieval
00:21:38.720 Europe that
00:21:40.240 looks back to
00:21:40.860 the classical
00:21:41.320 period, but
00:21:42.820 based upon the
00:21:43.540 stolidity and
00:21:44.300 the solidity and
00:21:45.980 the transcendental
00:21:47.140 maddianship of
00:21:49.280 the middle ages.
00:21:50.680 And it's the
00:21:52.020 renaissance and
00:21:53.820 the scientific
00:21:54.400 methodology that
00:21:55.380 gives rise to
00:21:56.220 it, which
00:21:56.920 is the return
00:21:57.900 to a particular
00:21:59.060 intellectual
00:21:59.540 inheritance of
00:22:00.300 the Greeks,
00:22:01.680 that gives
00:22:02.240 man this
00:22:03.020 sort of
00:22:03.920 diabolical
00:22:05.120 pact element
00:22:05.920 in the
00:22:07.160 Western cosmos.
00:22:09.260 This is the
00:22:09.780 idea that
00:22:10.600 Faust will
00:22:12.080 literally
00:22:12.700 sell his
00:22:14.720 soul to
00:22:15.140 Mephistopheles
00:22:15.820 for knowledge.
00:22:17.320 He will
00:22:18.300 sell his
00:22:18.860 soul for
00:22:19.660 power over
00:22:21.620 given things,
00:22:23.240 for the power
00:22:23.900 of magic
00:22:24.400 almost,
00:22:25.000 in the
00:22:26.980 interpretation of
00:22:27.920 physical reality
00:22:28.780 and his
00:22:29.960 ability to
00:22:30.580 hold
00:22:30.860 swerve
00:22:31.500 over the
00:22:36.480 physical world
00:22:37.500 with which the
00:22:38.240 sciences are
00:22:38.780 concerned.
00:22:40.940 And Western
00:22:41.740 man begins a
00:22:42.460 transmutation of
00:22:43.500 everything in
00:22:44.200 life, of
00:22:45.640 every science,
00:22:47.160 of every art,
00:22:48.980 of all forms of
00:22:49.780 economic dealing,
00:22:51.920 all forms of
00:22:52.800 culture and
00:22:53.400 civilizational
00:22:54.120 intent are
00:22:57.620 recalibrated and
00:23:00.480 cast anew through
00:23:01.640 this prism of
00:23:03.500 Christian fire.
00:23:05.260 and this
00:23:07.520 enables the
00:23:08.260 West to
00:23:08.960 set out,
00:23:09.640 as the
00:23:10.080 Athenians had
00:23:11.220 once done,
00:23:12.320 in a
00:23:12.620 restricted
00:23:13.060 Grecian
00:23:13.620 compass to
00:23:14.960 conquer much
00:23:16.540 of the
00:23:16.780 known world
00:23:17.520 and to
00:23:18.280 subdue it to
00:23:19.040 their own
00:23:19.500 restless
00:23:19.920 tasking and
00:23:21.640 desire for
00:23:22.320 self-overcoming
00:23:23.300 at every
00:23:24.180 possible instant.
00:23:25.720 So the
00:23:26.460 West is seen
00:23:27.220 as in some
00:23:27.780 ways the
00:23:28.100 culture of
00:23:28.580 the Superman
00:23:29.040 in Nietzschean
00:23:30.740 terms.
00:23:32.300 Reaching out
00:23:33.080 across the
00:23:33.560 world,
00:23:34.900 reshaping
00:23:35.500 other cultures,
00:23:37.180 interacting with
00:23:38.120 them in often
00:23:38.660 destructive,
00:23:39.500 very creative
00:23:40.220 ways, to
00:23:41.700 release more
00:23:42.360 energy, to
00:23:43.980 enhance more
00:23:44.740 transcendence, to
00:23:46.660 enhance more
00:23:47.520 creativity, to
00:23:49.380 lead to more
00:23:50.000 thirsty impacts
00:23:50.880 and bargains,
00:23:52.740 and then to
00:23:53.680 become even
00:23:55.600 more enraptured
00:23:57.760 of its own
00:23:58.360 colossal strength
00:23:59.500 and vigour
00:24:00.120 by importing
00:24:01.860 even more
00:24:02.900 energy, through
00:24:04.560 even greater
00:24:05.280 and deeper
00:24:05.880 and more
00:24:06.300 resonantial
00:24:06.920 fast impacts,
00:24:08.620 until the
00:24:09.120 thing
00:24:09.500 peters on the
00:24:12.380 brink of
00:24:12.760 absurdity to a
00:24:13.620 degree, because
00:24:15.120 the West
00:24:16.800 becomes so
00:24:17.520 enamored of
00:24:18.040 its own
00:24:18.440 model that
00:24:19.820 it can't see
00:24:20.660 that it's
00:24:21.220 beginning like
00:24:21.880 all cultures
00:24:22.660 to engage
00:24:23.960 upon ineffable
00:24:25.100 decline.
00:24:26.600 What creates
00:24:27.960 the decline?
00:24:28.740 What leads
00:24:30.380 to decadence?
00:24:31.340 What turns
00:24:33.260 self-overcoming,
00:24:34.600 continual self-
00:24:35.460 overcoming, into
00:24:36.960 decadence?
00:24:38.720 Probably
00:24:39.400 repetition, and
00:24:41.120 probably the
00:24:41.560 fact that he
00:24:42.020 believes that
00:24:42.640 everything is
00:24:44.340 pre-programmed
00:24:45.540 like a computer
00:24:46.660 chip to
00:24:47.220 decay over
00:24:47.860 time.
00:24:48.660 You can only
00:24:49.760 go to the
00:24:50.220 world so
00:24:50.720 often.
00:24:51.160 revolution, and
00:24:52.780 probably the
00:24:55.320 spread of
00:24:57.160 democratic,
00:24:59.000 liberal
00:24:59.380 humanist, and
00:25:01.060 materialist
00:25:01.640 ideas, and
00:25:04.020 the disjunction
00:25:04.660 between the
00:25:05.320 Enlightenment and
00:25:06.640 the Renaissance.
00:25:08.420 The Renaissance is
00:25:09.380 seen by most
00:25:10.300 Enlightenment
00:25:10.800 thinkers as a
00:25:11.560 precursor of the
00:25:13.220 Enlightenment, but
00:25:15.040 who doubtless
00:25:15.660 sees the
00:25:16.240 Enlightenment as
00:25:17.860 the giving
00:25:19.260 way of the
00:25:20.900 Faustian
00:25:21.380 bargain to
00:25:23.160 decadence, who
00:25:26.320 untrammeled ideas
00:25:27.460 about the rule of
00:25:28.260 the majority, which
00:25:30.300 the people who put
00:25:31.020 them forward, he
00:25:31.780 believes, must know
00:25:32.800 absurd, because the
00:25:34.740 majority of men can
00:25:35.560 never decide any
00:25:36.340 question of any
00:25:37.700 importance amongst
00:25:39.100 themselves.
00:25:39.780 the extension of
00:25:43.080 the women would
00:25:45.500 be given the
00:25:46.020 vote, and
00:25:47.040 would be allowed
00:25:47.700 into the
00:25:50.080 function hall of
00:25:50.880 the male, the
00:25:53.320 liberal
00:25:54.900 humanism that
00:25:55.660 would increasingly
00:25:56.400 refuse to
00:25:58.700 distinguish between
00:25:59.640 patterns of
00:26:00.280 being, and
00:26:01.300 hierarchies in
00:26:02.240 nature, as
00:26:04.280 they express
00:26:04.700 themselves in
00:26:05.320 society.
00:26:06.520 So really, it's
00:26:08.700 the Enlightenment
00:26:09.740 and its
00:26:10.860 definition of
00:26:11.660 the West, which
00:26:13.540 is necessary,
00:26:15.540 because in my
00:26:16.420 reading of his
00:26:17.080 Cadence of
00:26:17.720 History, is
00:26:19.340 that the
00:26:22.360 decline is
00:26:22.920 necessary, and
00:26:23.940 therefore is
00:26:24.480 inborn, and
00:26:25.980 the forces which
00:26:26.780 are there, rather
00:26:27.980 like illness and
00:26:28.780 death in the
00:26:29.220 individual, are
00:26:30.660 there to
00:26:31.080 permit change
00:26:32.560 and renewal in
00:26:33.200 the future, and
00:26:34.440 the ending of a
00:26:35.080 cycle which is
00:26:35.820 natural, as it
00:26:37.280 is in the
00:26:38.020 biological world.
00:26:39.100 So he
00:26:40.020 doesn't see
00:26:40.620 evidence as a
00:26:41.380 disaster, he
00:26:42.820 sees it as a
00:26:43.660 necessity.
00:26:45.780 So are we
00:26:46.280 still living in
00:26:47.420 an enlightened
00:26:47.960 age, in a
00:26:49.360 way, that that
00:26:50.800 was the turning
00:26:51.600 point, and
00:26:52.320 we're kind of
00:26:53.360 the last
00:26:54.020 dregs of the
00:26:55.960 Enlightenment?
00:26:56.400 you could
00:26:57.960 interpret it in
00:26:58.720 that way, although
00:26:59.440 of course, at
00:27:00.040 the end of the
00:27:00.580 decline in the
00:27:01.040 West, in the
00:27:01.560 second volume, he
00:27:03.520 preaches a new
00:27:04.340 Caesarism, that
00:27:05.260 there will be a
00:27:05.880 democratic
00:27:06.340 Caesarism, which
00:27:09.320 of course came to
00:27:12.700 be true.
00:27:14.400 Throughout the
00:27:14.980 first half, or the
00:27:16.380 first, the latter
00:27:19.880 third of the
00:27:21.880 first quadrant of
00:27:22.920 the 20th
00:27:23.500 century, his
00:27:25.000 view that
00:27:25.700 democratic
00:27:27.220 niceties would
00:27:28.020 be replaced by
00:27:28.880 a much more
00:27:29.400 Machiavellian and
00:27:30.920 realistic politics,
00:27:32.840 the politics of
00:27:33.680 ruthless real
00:27:34.400 politique, associated,
00:27:38.080 even though he
00:27:38.700 never advocated it,
00:27:40.160 with fascism,
00:27:41.880 although some of
00:27:42.860 his political
00:27:43.400 sayings are close
00:27:45.100 to that of a
00:27:45.840 fascistic, or
00:27:47.440 fascistic
00:27:47.980 conservative.
00:27:51.720 That's why, again,
00:27:53.000 he falls between
00:27:53.780 two camps.
00:27:55.420 He's not
00:27:55.860 fascistic enough
00:27:56.740 for those people
00:27:57.480 who are enamoured
00:27:58.140 of those governments
00:27:59.080 and regimes at a
00:28:01.620 particular time, but
00:28:03.500 nor is he
00:28:03.940 conservative enough
00:28:05.000 not to be
00:28:05.920 associated with
00:28:06.800 them, at least
00:28:07.880 through the
00:28:08.260 glamour of
00:28:08.720 nostalgia.
00:28:09.940 So he's too
00:28:11.960 quasi-fascistic
00:28:13.440 for many
00:28:13.920 conservatives,
00:28:15.100 particularly now,
00:28:16.980 but he's also
00:28:17.920 too conservative
00:28:18.700 for thorough
00:28:21.040 going fascistic
00:28:21.920 types, and
00:28:23.240 that was his
00:28:23.660 attitude, of
00:28:24.260 course, to
00:28:25.900 one of the
00:28:27.580 most notorious
00:28:28.040 governments in
00:28:28.680 the Western
00:28:29.020 world, which
00:28:29.600 you lived through
00:28:30.080 the early stages
00:28:30.880 of in the
00:28:32.000 1930s in his
00:28:33.080 own country.
00:28:34.100 Right.
00:28:34.460 Actually, we
00:28:35.000 talked about
00:28:35.740 that, and
00:28:36.240 actually, the
00:28:37.300 Nazi regime
00:28:39.060 banned his
00:28:39.960 book, The
00:28:41.000 Hour of
00:28:41.520 Decision, which
00:28:43.340 again,
00:28:44.020 I'm sure
00:28:46.080 in most
00:28:48.240 of the
00:28:48.420 modern mind,
00:28:49.240 they would
00:28:49.800 probably just
00:28:50.680 lump someone
00:28:51.700 like Spengler
00:28:52.600 on in there
00:28:53.760 with Hitler
00:28:54.300 as evil
00:28:58.020 right-wingers,
00:28:58.900 but obviously
00:28:59.700 that's certainly
00:29:01.680 not the way
00:29:02.180 they saw it
00:29:02.860 at the time.
00:29:04.020 So maybe
00:29:04.400 you could put a
00:29:05.100 little more
00:29:05.340 pressure on
00:29:05.860 this, because
00:29:06.160 this is an
00:29:06.680 interesting issue
00:29:07.680 of Spengler's
00:29:10.800 life in an
00:29:12.460 age which
00:29:13.100 could be even
00:29:13.720 described as
00:29:14.380 democratic
00:29:15.060 Caesarism, that
00:29:17.920 is one based
00:29:19.100 on, say,
00:29:20.700 populism, maybe
00:29:21.620 even popular
00:29:22.140 sovereignty, but
00:29:23.460 then one that
00:29:24.000 is harsh and
00:29:26.060 brutal in many
00:29:28.300 ways, you
00:29:29.120 know, enamored
00:29:30.340 with real
00:29:30.860 politique and
00:29:31.640 so on and
00:29:31.900 so forth.
00:29:32.280 So maybe we
00:29:32.960 can talk, I
00:29:33.580 think it's a
00:29:33.940 very interesting
00:29:34.420 topic of
00:29:35.540 Spengler's
00:29:36.780 own life.
00:29:39.000 Yes, there's
00:29:41.480 always been a
00:29:42.500 liberal qualm
00:29:43.540 here as to
00:29:44.560 why he
00:29:45.440 didn't support
00:29:49.580 the Nazi
00:29:49.980 regime.
00:29:51.900 He did vote
00:29:52.860 for Hitler,
00:29:53.240 it was against
00:29:53.960 Hindenburg in
00:29:54.940 the presidential
00:29:55.480 election, which
00:29:56.220 of course Hitler
00:29:56.700 lost, and
00:29:58.000 Hindenburg
00:29:58.300 retains
00:29:58.760 presidency
00:29:59.260 until he
00:29:59.780 died in
00:30:00.140 office.
00:30:02.260 And then it
00:30:02.700 was after
00:30:03.180 the Terschelter
00:30:03.920 and it was
00:30:04.940 just rolled
00:30:05.760 up and it
00:30:06.840 became one of
00:30:07.460 Hitler's many
00:30:07.980 officers as
00:30:08.740 he became
00:30:09.280 supreme leader
00:30:10.080 of all
00:30:10.440 elements of
00:30:10.960 the state
00:30:11.520 and the
00:30:12.640 office of
00:30:13.080 president and
00:30:13.660 chancellor was
00:30:14.240 amalgamated
00:30:14.920 into that of
00:30:15.600 the leader
00:30:16.000 figure.
00:30:19.720 He also
00:30:20.660 put a
00:30:21.400 swastika outside
00:30:22.260 his logic
00:30:22.780 windows once
00:30:24.120 to annoy the
00:30:24.840 neighbours with
00:30:25.880 his sister,
00:30:27.420 saying as he
00:30:28.200 unveiled it
00:30:28.860 that one
00:30:29.140 should always
00:30:29.640 be prepared to
00:30:33.000 pay the price
00:30:33.620 for annoying
00:30:34.080 people, but
00:30:35.980 at the same
00:30:36.480 time he
00:30:39.060 thought of
00:30:39.520 them as
00:30:39.820 irretrievably
00:30:40.660 vulgar and
00:30:43.300 without high
00:30:43.900 culture, very
00:30:45.220 much James
00:30:45.700 Jung's snobbish
00:30:47.140 intellectual
00:30:47.720 attitude towards
00:30:48.560 them.
00:30:49.820 He wasn't so
00:30:50.380 much worried
00:30:50.840 about the
00:30:51.460 social origins
00:30:52.280 of many of
00:30:52.900 them, which
00:30:54.120 is what
00:30:54.440 convulsed the
00:30:55.080 German old
00:30:55.640 right, in
00:30:57.020 which Spengler
00:30:57.580 would have
00:30:57.860 been more
00:30:58.260 comfortable, but
00:31:00.020 he was
00:31:00.680 concerned about
00:31:01.560 their cultural
00:31:02.140 ignorance as
00:31:02.800 far as he
00:31:03.200 was concerned,
00:31:04.280 and the
00:31:04.960 greatness and
00:31:05.500 glory of what
00:31:06.160 it was to
00:31:06.700 be German
00:31:08.460 seeming cultural
00:31:09.880 terms.
00:31:12.360 In some ways
00:31:12.840 he's too
00:31:13.280 fair and too
00:31:14.780 stark and too
00:31:15.840 elitist to
00:31:16.480 figure.
00:31:18.040 For him, just to
00:31:18.900 make mouth-watering
00:31:20.080 speeches about
00:31:20.820 Germany and
00:31:22.240 German identity
00:31:23.040 entirely begins
00:31:24.340 with what you
00:31:25.140 mean by
00:31:25.620 Germany, what
00:31:26.420 do you mean by
00:31:27.040 German cultural
00:31:27.760 identity, unless
00:31:29.380 you're highly
00:31:29.920 educated, civilized
00:31:33.160 and knowledgeable
00:31:33.780 about what it
00:31:34.640 means to be
00:31:35.320 German or to
00:31:36.720 be European in
00:31:37.600 extensa, these
00:31:39.320 political remarks
00:31:40.380 are slightly
00:31:40.940 meaningless.
00:31:42.320 He's one
00:31:42.700 intervention into
00:31:43.420 politics when he
00:31:44.300 was attempting
00:31:45.660 to get the
00:31:46.300 power for a
00:31:47.660 German on
00:31:49.260 Lugendorf's
00:31:49.900 general staff
00:31:50.620 during the
00:31:51.060 First War,
00:31:52.080 General von
00:31:52.640 Schecht, I
00:31:53.340 think, didn't
00:31:55.700 really go
00:31:56.280 anywhere because
00:31:57.580 his view of
00:31:58.520 practical politics
00:31:59.600 as a man of
00:32:00.960 the study was
00:32:02.520 rather, probably
00:32:05.520 overly
00:32:06.140 conspiratorial and
00:32:07.540 sort of overly
00:32:08.500 verified, like a
00:32:10.520 lot of academic
00:32:11.160 intellectuals, he
00:32:11.960 didn't make a
00:32:12.440 good politician.
00:32:14.200 But at the
00:32:14.600 same time,
00:32:16.440 although he
00:32:17.040 despised the
00:32:17.700 buy my
00:32:18.100 republic in
00:32:18.740 regard to
00:32:19.260 did his
00:32:19.680 and unnecessary
00:32:20.840 appendage to
00:32:22.660 the glory of
00:32:23.500 the German
00:32:23.860 Empire that
00:32:24.540 you preceded
00:32:25.120 it, he
00:32:27.580 was actually
00:32:28.200 not particularly
00:32:30.100 enamoured of
00:32:30.660 the Germans,
00:32:31.900 partly because he
00:32:32.540 believed they
00:32:32.980 were too hostile
00:32:33.600 to other
00:32:34.040 European peoples.
00:32:36.800 And he
00:32:37.580 believed that
00:32:38.240 the coming
00:32:39.300 battles were
00:32:40.020 civilisational and
00:32:42.040 there should be
00:32:42.480 alliances with
00:32:43.240 other European
00:32:43.880 nation-states
00:32:44.840 against the
00:32:46.800 hordes of
00:32:47.380 Asia and
00:32:48.420 Africa and
00:32:49.680 the Far
00:32:50.060 East that
00:32:51.460 would be the
00:32:51.940 real enemies
00:32:52.440 in the
00:32:52.760 future.
00:32:54.320 So he had
00:32:55.260 an almost
00:32:55.960 Nietzschean,
00:32:56.700 good European
00:32:57.360 sense, or
00:32:58.200 one that was
00:32:59.280 almost similar
00:32:59.860 to maybe even
00:33:01.260 Lothrop
00:33:01.620 Stoddard and
00:33:02.380 some other
00:33:02.880 people in
00:33:03.440 that general
00:33:04.680 time period.
00:33:05.320 That's
00:33:06.000 right, he
00:33:06.640 sort of, to
00:33:10.300 a leftist
00:33:10.820 mind, he's
00:33:11.520 almost as
00:33:12.060 right as
00:33:12.600 Hitler, but
00:33:13.140 he doesn't
00:33:13.460 agree with
00:33:13.880 his views.
00:33:16.180 That's the
00:33:16.860 sort of,
00:33:18.900 just as an
00:33:21.940 enormous number
00:33:22.540 of Latin
00:33:22.840 intellectuals,
00:33:23.540 of course,
00:33:23.780 didn't agree
00:33:24.180 with Stalin.
00:33:26.700 So there's
00:33:28.440 a degree to
00:33:29.000 which he
00:33:30.620 also didn't
00:33:31.780 entirely agree
00:33:33.080 with the
00:33:33.780 aggressive,
00:33:34.540 sort of
00:33:35.260 technological
00:33:36.580 features in
00:33:37.580 Third Reich,
00:33:38.720 which was
00:33:39.620 romantic and
00:33:40.500 realist and
00:33:41.620 agrarian at
00:33:42.480 one level,
00:33:43.600 and yet
00:33:43.820 embraced
00:33:44.260 motorways and
00:33:45.360 rockets and
00:33:46.860 high technology
00:33:47.680 at another,
00:33:49.080 because he
00:33:49.440 believed that
00:33:50.000 technology had
00:33:50.720 become a part
00:33:51.500 of the
00:33:51.720 statement of
00:33:53.500 the modern
00:33:53.860 man, very
00:33:54.400 much prefiguring
00:33:55.180 Heidegger's
00:33:55.800 thinking in
00:33:57.000 this regard.
00:34:00.760 And also,
00:34:02.040 of course,
00:34:02.360 he didn't
00:34:02.680 share the
00:34:03.120 anti-Semitism
00:34:03.700 in Iowa
00:34:04.200 particularly,
00:34:05.800 while in
00:34:07.500 no sense
00:34:08.020 being
00:34:08.340 philo-Semitic
00:34:09.520 about Nietzsche,
00:34:11.220 he didn't
00:34:12.600 share the
00:34:13.200 crude,
00:34:13.980 drew-baiting,
00:34:14.860 beer-hall
00:34:16.420 attitudes that
00:34:19.040 swirled around
00:34:21.340 the German
00:34:21.780 rise,
00:34:23.600 which were
00:34:24.160 not
00:34:24.420 civilizationly
00:34:25.380 part of the
00:34:25.960 way he
00:34:26.320 perceived
00:34:26.680 reality,
00:34:27.700 because he
00:34:28.520 didn't view
00:34:29.080 the world
00:34:29.480 conspiratorially,
00:34:31.200 or
00:34:31.580 metaphysically
00:34:32.320 conspiratorially,
00:34:33.600 he viewed the
00:34:34.180 world in
00:34:34.720 terms of
00:34:35.160 these great
00:34:35.680 overarching
00:34:36.340 abstractions of
00:34:37.860 cultural
00:34:38.240 civilizations,
00:34:39.620 of which
00:34:40.020 Germany was
00:34:40.600 only a part.
00:34:42.540 He also was a
00:34:43.880 pessimist,
00:34:44.520 and he didn't
00:34:44.980 share the
00:34:45.720 extreme and
00:34:48.060 rather myopic
00:34:48.860 optimism of that
00:34:49.860 regime,
00:34:50.880 which was very
00:34:51.540 shrill,
00:34:52.580 particularly on
00:34:53.140 its own
00:34:53.460 behalf.
00:34:54.020 So,
00:34:56.640 Jonathan,
00:34:57.040 what kind of
00:34:58.020 ideas did
00:34:58.900 Spengler have
00:34:59.900 for the
00:35:00.460 future,
00:35:01.460 and did
00:35:03.460 he see the
00:35:04.000 rise of a
00:35:04.740 new civilization?
00:35:06.440 You know,
00:35:06.660 I was actually,
00:35:07.700 this past
00:35:08.240 weekend,
00:35:08.800 I attended the
00:35:09.820 American Renaissance
00:35:10.600 Conference,
00:35:11.500 and Dr.
00:35:12.740 Richard Lynn
00:35:13.440 was there,
00:35:14.180 and he gave
00:35:15.280 a very
00:35:15.740 enjoyable and
00:35:17.200 informative talk
00:35:18.240 about eugenics,
00:35:19.940 actually,
00:35:20.560 but he ended
00:35:21.860 by talking
00:35:22.780 about
00:35:23.340 the world
00:35:26.260 of the
00:35:26.740 21st and
00:35:27.660 probably
00:35:28.100 22nd,
00:35:28.960 maybe 23rd
00:35:29.880 century being
00:35:31.160 that of the
00:35:31.920 East,
00:35:32.620 and China in
00:35:33.960 particular.
00:35:35.340 Do you think,
00:35:36.240 did Spengler talk
00:35:37.200 about any of
00:35:37.720 this,
00:35:37.960 or did he
00:35:38.800 believe that
00:35:40.240 a new
00:35:42.040 civilization would
00:35:43.260 arise,
00:35:44.020 that maybe an
00:35:44.800 Oriental
00:35:45.360 civilization might
00:35:46.320 have a new
00:35:47.640 rebirth?
00:35:49.600 Or did he
00:35:50.380 talk about this,
00:35:51.000 or maybe you
00:35:51.500 could even
00:35:51.860 speculate it,
00:35:53.020 speculate on
00:35:53.880 it yourself?
00:35:56.680 Yes,
00:35:57.180 he didn't
00:35:57.520 really speak
00:35:58.420 of it.
00:35:59.040 He sort of
00:35:59.900 sounded the
00:36:01.500 death knell
00:36:03.520 of another
00:36:03.900 present West
00:36:04.720 that was
00:36:06.560 exhausted at
00:36:07.220 the end of
00:36:07.540 the Great
00:36:07.840 War.
00:36:08.940 His thesis
00:36:09.380 was misunderstood,
00:36:11.320 the tens of
00:36:11.800 thousands of
00:36:12.360 coppers that
00:36:13.040 made him from
00:36:13.740 a penniless
00:36:14.480 living in
00:36:16.500 gentile poverty
00:36:17.260 intellectual
00:36:17.920 culture into
00:36:19.340 a sort of
00:36:20.340 major cultural
00:36:21.100 figure throughout
00:36:21.800 Germany and
00:36:23.320 the West was
00:36:24.940 based on a
00:36:25.460 misnomer.
00:36:26.600 The massive
00:36:27.060 cultured people,
00:36:29.040 of course,
00:36:29.540 we're talking
00:36:29.960 yourselves in
00:36:30.820 tens and
00:36:31.380 hundreds of
00:36:31.860 thousands,
00:36:32.460 not the
00:36:32.740 millions,
00:36:33.880 who bought
00:36:34.380 his enormous
00:36:34.920 book and
00:36:35.560 some of the
00:36:36.020 others,
00:36:37.140 and he made
00:36:37.640 him moderately
00:36:38.200 wealthy as a
00:36:38.980 consequence,
00:36:39.960 and able to
00:36:40.480 live independently.
00:36:42.220 They interpreted
00:36:43.020 the book as
00:36:44.200 an explanation
00:36:44.800 for Germany's
00:36:45.520 defeat in the
00:36:46.180 First World
00:36:46.640 War, and
00:36:48.500 because it
00:36:50.040 basically put it
00:36:51.020 into world
00:36:52.040 historical and
00:36:53.060 cosmological terms,
00:36:54.760 it exominated
00:36:55.540 Germany from
00:36:56.260 a personal
00:36:56.740 defeat.
00:36:58.420 It also
00:36:58.780 seemed so
00:36:59.920 scholarly and
00:37:00.840 sort of
00:37:01.100 well-wrought,
00:37:03.700 and was not
00:37:05.020 propagandistic,
00:37:06.220 it was not
00:37:06.640 the stab in
00:37:07.140 the back
00:37:07.780 of mythology,
00:37:10.120 it was not
00:37:10.500 the fact that
00:37:10.880 they were being
00:37:11.160 let down by
00:37:11.920 forces at
00:37:12.520 home,
00:37:13.020 what was
00:37:15.180 it,
00:37:15.300 the normative
00:37:15.840 liberal view
00:37:16.620 that they
00:37:16.940 just run
00:37:17.460 out of
00:37:17.860 men,
00:37:18.280 run out
00:37:18.600 of material,
00:37:20.060 run out
00:37:20.500 of resources,
00:37:22.140 and been
00:37:23.700 defeated in
00:37:24.360 that way.
00:37:26.820 So people
00:37:27.980 stopped in
00:37:28.620 his book
00:37:29.000 really on
00:37:29.500 the misnomer,
00:37:30.960 because what
00:37:32.060 he was saying
00:37:32.840 was that
00:37:33.820 Germany's
00:37:34.500 defeat was
00:37:35.180 part of a
00:37:35.800 pattern of
00:37:36.320 defeats that
00:37:37.540 were going
00:37:37.960 on within
00:37:38.440 the civilization
00:37:39.300 at a
00:37:40.400 particular
00:37:40.720 time.
00:37:42.220 He
00:37:42.460 deposited the
00:37:43.000 idea that
00:37:43.600 these
00:37:43.800 defeats could
00:37:44.360 be arrested
00:37:45.040 for a
00:37:46.180 time by
00:37:47.620 democratic
00:37:48.220 athesism and
00:37:49.600 various forms
00:37:50.280 of populism
00:37:50.980 for which he
00:37:51.460 had a
00:37:51.740 distaste,
00:37:52.540 actually,
00:37:53.680 but which he
00:37:54.120 believed to be
00:37:54.680 necessary at
00:37:56.120 this time in
00:37:56.720 the cycle.
00:37:58.640 And in
00:37:58.880 Manning
00:37:59.180 Technics,
00:37:59.720 for example,
00:38:00.420 there's a
00:38:00.700 quite sort of
00:38:01.260 ruthless
00:38:01.680 extolling of
00:38:03.260 the virtues of
00:38:04.100 some of
00:38:04.440 these sorts of
00:38:05.000 regimes up to
00:38:06.340 a point.
00:38:06.960 but he
00:38:08.140 never thought
00:38:08.640 that they
00:38:08.980 were the
00:38:10.200 be-all and
00:38:10.720 end-all for
00:38:11.280 culture.
00:38:12.980 And so his
00:38:13.480 belief is that
00:38:14.080 the West would
00:38:14.640 continue to
00:38:15.160 decline throughout
00:38:16.740 the 20th
00:38:17.340 century.
00:38:19.080 And one of
00:38:20.020 Spendler's
00:38:20.580 offshoots,
00:38:21.180 of course,
00:38:22.160 is the
00:38:22.500 Doctrine of
00:38:22.940 the Clash
00:38:23.280 of Civilizations,
00:38:24.840 which is made
00:38:26.040 famous by that
00:38:27.020 book,
00:38:27.500 The Clash of
00:38:28.060 Civilizations.
00:38:29.300 Right.
00:38:29.820 By Samuel
00:38:30.240 Huntington.
00:38:30.800 Yeah,
00:38:31.760 it's written
00:38:32.120 about,
00:38:32.600 what,
00:38:32.960 15 years
00:38:33.780 ago now?
00:38:34.620 Or so,
00:38:35.140 yeah.
00:38:37.140 Now,
00:38:37.820 that's a
00:38:38.240 Spenglerian
00:38:38.880 thesis,
00:38:39.420 even though
00:38:39.800 he may not
00:38:40.260 like to
00:38:40.780 admit to
00:38:42.300 be influenced
00:38:42.840 by Spengler,
00:38:43.640 some people
00:38:44.080 don't choose
00:38:44.720 to.
00:38:45.840 You know,
00:38:46.100 all sorts of
00:38:46.560 people like
00:38:46.940 the Beats
00:38:47.520 and the
00:38:47.880 left,
00:38:49.580 or
00:38:49.980 metacultural
00:38:51.380 left,
00:38:51.800 let's put it
00:38:52.180 that way,
00:38:52.580 like Barrows
00:38:53.260 and
00:38:53.420 Ginsburg
00:38:54.380 and
00:38:54.780 Kerouac,
00:38:55.660 who openly
00:38:56.060 admit to
00:38:56.560 being strongly
00:38:57.120 influenced
00:38:57.460 by Spengler.
00:38:58.420 But other
00:38:58.980 people are
00:38:59.400 very reluctant
00:39:00.020 to even
00:39:01.160 admit the
00:39:01.640 fact that
00:39:02.020 he's come
00:39:02.380 anywhere near
00:39:02.960 them and
00:39:04.020 their thinking
00:39:04.520 at all.
00:39:05.960 Nevertheless,
00:39:07.540 the idea
00:39:08.160 that other
00:39:08.660 civilizations
00:39:09.260 will rise,
00:39:11.300 particularly
00:39:11.640 in the
00:39:11.940 Far East,
00:39:13.560 and will
00:39:14.140 challenge
00:39:14.600 the West
00:39:15.040 of Germany
00:39:15.560 later in
00:39:17.360 the last
00:39:17.760 century,
00:39:18.820 don't forget
00:39:19.200 he died
00:39:19.620 in 1936,
00:39:22.240 is indisputable
00:39:25.440 from the
00:39:25.820 nature of
00:39:26.240 his work.
00:39:27.100 But he
00:39:27.360 doesn't go
00:39:27.780 on to
00:39:28.120 specify it
00:39:28.920 very much
00:39:29.580 he deals
00:39:30.820 with the
00:39:31.880 second volume
00:39:32.660 of the
00:39:32.860 decline of
00:39:33.280 the West
00:39:33.600 basically
00:39:34.360 closes on
00:39:36.280 the turnaround
00:39:37.560 of the
00:39:37.960 democratic
00:39:38.420 theismism
00:39:39.100 and the
00:39:40.120 fact that
00:39:40.440 the West
00:39:40.820 is nevertheless
00:39:41.520 going into
00:39:43.000 an autumnal
00:39:43.740 and wintery
00:39:44.440 stage and
00:39:45.800 leads it to
00:39:46.320 that.
00:39:47.600 But lots
00:39:47.980 of people,
00:39:48.440 of course,
00:39:48.660 take up the
00:39:49.140 mantle.
00:39:50.780 Jocki's
00:39:51.240 views are
00:39:52.500 strongly
00:39:53.040 Spenglerian,
00:39:53.880 even though
00:39:55.040 he fills
00:39:57.800 in
00:39:58.020 Spengler's
00:39:58.820 work
00:39:59.280 by
00:40:01.380 essentially
00:40:01.940 giving it
00:40:02.500 a National
00:40:02.860 Socialist
00:40:03.420 Register.
00:40:04.980 In some
00:40:05.300 ways,
00:40:05.960 Jocki is a
00:40:06.620 Nazi-fied
00:40:07.200 Spengler
00:40:07.760 because Spengler
00:40:09.920 would never
00:40:10.380 take that,
00:40:11.400 it was never
00:40:11.960 a whole hogger
00:40:12.760 as far as
00:40:13.800 they were
00:40:14.080 concerned,
00:40:14.960 and actually
00:40:15.520 had a
00:40:15.880 different viewpoint.
00:40:17.560 That's why
00:40:18.160 Jocki's book
00:40:19.000 tends to be
00:40:19.660 two books
00:40:20.120 in one.
00:40:21.380 80% of it
00:40:22.460 is a
00:40:22.760 Spenglerian
00:40:23.640 exercise,
00:40:24.840 and then
00:40:25.960 at the
00:40:26.220 end,
00:40:26.640 the 20%,
00:40:27.480 when he
00:40:27.800 basically
00:40:28.200 adopts
00:40:28.700 a sort
00:40:29.000 of
00:40:29.160 Fourth
00:40:30.680 Reich,
00:40:31.480 Third
00:40:31.820 Reich
00:40:32.160 viewpoint,
00:40:33.720 which is
00:40:34.200 he's
00:40:34.320 going
00:40:34.600 grafting
00:40:35.180 onto
00:40:35.520 the
00:40:35.780 Spenglerian
00:40:36.580 architecture
00:40:37.320 of a
00:40:38.440 sort
00:40:38.660 of
00:40:38.860 neo-National
00:40:39.540 Socialist
00:40:40.320 Declaration
00:40:41.540 of London
00:40:42.220 opinion
00:40:43.960 or
00:40:44.480 editorial.
00:40:45.720 One
00:40:46.060 question
00:40:46.460 that was
00:40:46.880 coming to
00:40:47.360 my mind
00:40:47.940 was,
00:40:49.220 we were
00:40:50.080 witnessing,
00:40:51.400 experiencing
00:40:52.040 the winter
00:40:53.360 of Faustian
00:40:54.460 Western
00:40:54.820 culture.
00:40:56.020 Do you
00:40:56.580 think that
00:40:57.080 if there
00:40:57.400 were a
00:40:58.380 rebirth
00:40:58.900 amongst
00:41:00.140 European
00:41:01.620 peoples,
00:41:03.180 that it
00:41:03.960 would be
00:41:04.380 something
00:41:04.700 different
00:41:05.200 than
00:41:05.440 Faustian
00:41:05.860 culture?
00:41:06.360 I mean,
00:41:06.720 would it
00:41:08.100 be a
00:41:08.340 kind of
00:41:08.680 revival
00:41:09.280 of the
00:41:10.940 West
00:41:11.340 as we've
00:41:12.580 known it?
00:41:13.360 Or would
00:41:14.120 there actually
00:41:14.600 be a
00:41:15.320 different
00:41:15.940 paradigm
00:41:16.480 that would
00:41:17.820 be adopted
00:41:18.540 by European
00:41:19.980 peoples?
00:41:22.080 Well,
00:41:22.260 that's very
00:41:22.660 broad.
00:41:23.360 I personally
00:41:24.040 think that
00:41:24.320 that if
00:41:24.580 there was
00:41:24.860 to be
00:41:25.100 a revival,
00:41:26.460 it probably
00:41:27.180 has to be
00:41:27.720 more classical
00:41:28.380 than anything
00:41:28.880 else,
00:41:30.660 and has to
00:41:31.160 be a sort
00:41:31.660 of a
00:41:32.060 classicism,
00:41:33.300 and has to
00:41:33.840 be a return
00:41:34.500 to the
00:41:35.060 verities of
00:41:36.120 the
00:41:37.600 Greco-Ramon
00:41:38.520 world as
00:41:40.200 at least a
00:41:41.300 cultural basis
00:41:42.080 and a starting
00:41:42.720 point of
00:41:43.200 thinking,
00:41:44.300 because that
00:41:44.780 provides you
00:41:45.520 with a
00:41:47.260 pre-Christian
00:41:47.880 as well as a
00:41:48.480 post-Christian
00:41:49.080 dynamic.
00:41:49.600 it's
00:41:50.820 rational.
00:41:52.660 All of
00:41:53.380 Western
00:41:54.120 high culture
00:41:55.040 bears the
00:41:56.780 Hellenic
00:41:57.380 stamp upon
00:41:58.100 it,
00:41:59.280 filtered
00:41:59.540 through
00:41:59.880 Rome,
00:42:00.400 and Romans
00:42:01.000 hold the
00:42:01.920 empire,
00:42:02.920 Christianized,
00:42:04.040 and Germanicized
00:42:04.860 that came
00:42:05.320 after it.
00:42:05.980 and in
00:42:09.000 some ways
00:42:09.760 it's a
00:42:10.960 common
00:42:11.220 appeal to
00:42:12.860 the inner
00:42:13.460 tensions in
00:42:14.380 Western
00:42:14.760 man that
00:42:15.960 can be
00:42:16.280 resolved
00:42:16.780 classically.
00:42:18.460 So that's
00:42:18.900 the inner
00:42:19.420 regions for
00:42:20.100 Greece,
00:42:20.560 of course,
00:42:21.140 the
00:42:21.300 Benoit
00:42:21.700 outfit,
00:42:23.080 calling
00:42:23.380 itself
00:42:23.900 the
00:42:24.160 group
00:42:24.340 to
00:42:24.500 research
00:42:25.020 into
00:42:25.880 the
00:42:26.060 origins
00:42:26.440 of
00:42:26.640 European
00:42:27.100 civilization
00:42:28.500 and culture.
00:42:30.300 They want
00:42:30.740 to go
00:42:30.980 back to
00:42:31.420 Greece
00:42:31.840 with
00:42:33.220 modern
00:42:33.520 technology
00:42:34.140 and with
00:42:35.480 the
00:42:35.760 hallmark
00:42:36.500 of the
00:42:36.780 New
00:42:36.960 West.
00:42:38.180 And they
00:42:38.540 want a
00:42:38.860 new
00:42:39.120 right
00:42:39.400 rather than
00:42:39.840 an old
00:42:40.200 right to
00:42:41.100 carry that
00:42:41.560 project
00:42:41.900 forward.
00:42:43.940 Even though
00:42:44.660 at least
00:42:45.060 five currents
00:42:46.020 of the
00:42:46.320 New
00:42:46.520 Right now
00:42:47.060 are separated
00:42:47.660 out even
00:42:48.140 from the
00:42:48.500 Benoit.
00:42:50.580 That's
00:42:51.060 certainly
00:42:51.320 true.
00:42:52.320 Well,
00:42:52.840 Jonathan,
00:42:53.260 this has
00:42:53.560 been a
00:42:53.920 fascinating
00:42:54.400 discussion,
00:42:55.420 and I'm
00:42:56.000 just going
00:42:56.220 to put
00:42:56.600 a bookmark
00:42:57.900 in it
00:42:58.240 because I
00:42:58.740 think we
00:42:59.080 could return
00:42:59.800 to
00:43:00.220 Spengler
00:43:00.760 later on,
00:43:01.660 as with
00:43:03.340 so many
00:43:03.840 of our
00:43:04.080 podcasts,
00:43:04.700 we only
00:43:04.980 scratched the
00:43:06.440 surface on
00:43:06.960 these ideas,
00:43:08.000 and I speak
00:43:09.700 for a lot
00:43:10.100 of the
00:43:10.280 listeners,
00:43:10.800 waiting for
00:43:12.800 more,
00:43:13.520 so we
00:43:13.880 should do
00:43:14.140 it again.
00:43:14.960 Thanks for
00:43:15.540 being on
00:43:16.020 the show
00:43:16.460 again and
00:43:17.260 speaking with
00:43:17.880 us about
00:43:18.240 Spengler,
00:43:18.860 and we'll
00:43:19.360 talk to you
00:43:19.780 soon.
00:43:20.840 Thank you
00:43:21.360 very much.
00:43:21.740 We'll be
00:43:22.000 back.
00:43:33.840 Spengler,
00:43:49.720 spengler.