RadixJournal - Bowden! - 12 - Understanding Spengler

00:00:00.000 Welcome to Vanguard, a podcast of radical traditionalism.

00:00:24.660 Here's your host, Richard Spencer.

00:00:27.380 Hello, everyone, and welcome back to Vanguard.

00:00:32.560 And welcome back as well, Jonathan Bowden.

00:00:35.080 How are you, Jonathan?

00:00:36.300 Yes, hello. I'm very well. Thanks for having me on again.

00:00:39.400 Quite good.

00:00:40.400 Well, today we're going to talk about the philosophy of Oswald Spengler.

00:00:46.960 And in these podcasts, we've talked quite a bit about philosophers who are of interest to the new right or the alternative right, white nationalists, whatever you want to call us.

00:00:59.860 And we've talked about Nietzsche in particular, and Nietzsche is an interesting case in the sense that despite the fact that he has quite a few unfashionable ideas from the standpoint of our enlightened modern age, nevertheless, he's still quite popular.

00:01:20.680 Libraries, bookstores are well-stocked with titles on Nietzsche.

00:01:25.900 Spengler, on the other hand, who equaled or surpassed Nietzsche's popularity in Central Europe in his own time, has gone down the memory hole in a way.

00:01:38.100 It's hard to find a book by Spengler at your local bookstore, even a large one.

00:01:46.700 And though I think a lot of people have heard about him, they have some general notion that he was, you know, a pessimistic German or something like this.

00:01:55.980 They don't really know a lot about the man and his philosophy.

00:01:59.300 So we hope we can increase the level of understanding, certainly with this discussion today.

00:02:08.100 Jonathan, the way I wanted to start out this talk about Spengler and the philosophy of history is at a very basic level of understanding.

00:02:19.480 And, you know, I was thinking before we started this conversation that this idea of linear history is one that is really powerful for people.

00:02:33.040 And it also, it has something to do with Christianity in a way, but it's also something that's survived well into the post-Christian West.

00:02:44.260 And that is what I mean by linear history is what maybe could be described in just a simple phrase like it keeps getting better all the time.

00:02:52.640 This notion that, you know, we're the next step in history and this history leads to greater freedom, greater liberation, greater understanding, greater technology, so on and so forth.

00:03:10.880 And that, yes, there might be some bad things that happen along the way, but those are kind of speed bumps along this highway towards utopia or something like that.

00:03:23.500 And I think if we look at the world from the standpoint of technology, perhaps that is true.

00:03:32.460 You know, we've had the creation of medicines, from, you know, the automobile to the iPhone or whatever.

00:03:40.780 You know, obviously there is a way that things have been getting better.

00:03:44.880 They've been slowly perfected.

00:03:46.560 But, of course, culture and civilization, these are two very different things than technology.

00:03:54.520 And so, Jonathan, maybe we can talk a little bit about that just to get this conversation started and to get our listeners' minds the wheels turning, so to speak, about the philosophy of history.

00:04:07.300 It's just to think about that powerful assumption that it seems that everyone in the modern West, maybe even the modern world, left and right, both have.

00:04:17.640 And that is of linear history and how Spengler is really challenging that.

00:04:23.800 So what do you think about that idea, Jonathan?

00:04:27.300 Yes, I think that's a good way in.

00:04:29.140 And Spengler is a cosmologist of history.

00:04:32.260 He's a bottomist of history in a way.

00:04:34.400 He sees human cultures and their repentant civilizations very much like geological strata or the morphology of plant life.

00:04:45.180 They think they have a natural cycle, even a diurnal or seasonal one.

00:04:49.900 They have a brief flowering.

00:04:52.280 They have a spring.

00:04:53.580 They have a summer.

00:04:55.140 They have an autumnal phase.

00:04:56.700 Then they have a winter of the soul.

00:04:59.520 And then they die.

00:05:00.460 They literally atrophy and die.

00:05:03.060 And his belief in the death of great cultures, that cultures can be seen to come to an end,

00:05:08.880 or they can lie fallow for enormously long periods prior to some renaissance or kickstart,

00:05:14.660 is deeply troubling to the modern mind, which is addicted to the idea of progress and progressivism,

00:05:21.480 whatever its standpoint.

00:05:22.660 And Spengler's emotional register was profoundly melancholic and pessimistic.

00:05:28.620 And he once famously in Nun and Technique said that optimism is cowardice.

00:05:33.200 And there is a degree to which his view of history, which is these radial circles that overlap with each other,

00:05:42.400 rather than like a Vendag and a mathematics, a science with which he was familiar,

00:05:46.760 accords very much with his own view that things are cyclic and circular and turn back upon themselves.

00:05:59.260 And cultures go through various stages, which are inevitable. 1.00

00:06:04.080 And each stage follows from the other one and has the seeds of death in its own mouth,

00:06:09.180 in the sense that the thing would turn through the circle in itself,

00:06:13.160 like cultural decline away to merely being of archival and archaeological interest.

00:06:20.620 These are forbidding and sort of almost totalitarian insights of pessimism,

00:06:26.640 which don't accord easily with the 20th century.

00:06:32.160 If you look at a book like Neil Ferguson's The War of the World, for example,

00:06:36.800 which is an analysis of the extreme violence in Western and global society

00:06:42.080 in the century of the masses, the 20th century,

00:06:45.540 that's a mordant book.

00:06:47.700 It's an apocalyptic book.

00:06:49.500 It's a book which, in some ways, is opposed to the idea that things are getting better and better.

00:06:55.220 Yet at the same time, it doesn't feel emotionally pessimistic,

00:07:01.880 despite the fact that it's dealing on the whole with pessimistic criteria.

00:07:06.500 So Ferguson remains an optimist and a sort of bellatist of liberal methodology,

00:07:16.000 the belief that things can get better even if they turn out for the worst at a particular time,

00:07:22.080 which he wishes to express.

00:07:23.940 Spengler would have no luck with that.

00:07:26.340 Spengler believes that cultures are sort of caged in a way

00:07:30.140 and will wither and die on a floresce just as they sprout up to beauty 0.52

00:07:37.000 in accordance with the rhythm, which is closer to that of biological life than human affairs.

00:07:48.620 Before we get into his organic concept of history,

00:07:52.020 let's talk a little bit about his milieu, where he was coming from.

00:07:57.960 And I would like to talk about the milieu in his life in Germany

00:08:05.920 at the first quarter, first half of the century, 20th century.

00:08:11.260 But before that, I think it's worthwhile just looking at going back a little bit to the 19th century

00:08:17.260 and some of the philosophies of history which preceded Spenglers.

00:08:22.420 And I'm thinking, of course, of Hegel and Kant,

00:08:27.180 probably the two biggest figures in that philosophical school.

00:08:35.040 So maybe you could just mention,

00:08:36.740 what are some of the ways that Hegel, probably the most well-known, influenced Spengler?

00:08:44.400 In particular, obviously Hegel had a dialectical view of history,

00:08:48.360 which is certainly more complicated than the kind of

00:08:51.680 it's-getting-better-all-the-time linear view.

00:08:54.600 But nevertheless, it was a progressive view of history.

00:08:58.660 He actually felt that actually history was kind of coming to an end

00:09:02.260 with the Prussian state and so on and so forth.

00:09:06.640 So what do you think about, say, the influence of some of these great German idealist thinkers

00:09:12.880 that came before Spengler and how that impacted his notion of the decline of the West?

00:09:22.440 Yes, I think that they obviously affected it deeply

00:09:25.380 because they looked for systematic answers.

00:09:29.500 Right.

00:09:29.900 Unlike the neo-Kantian school that said there is no plan for history 0.70

00:09:33.860 and that all attempts to find a plan in history are artistic and subjective

00:09:39.820 and therefore historically worthless.

00:09:42.900 It's important to realise that for a proportion of critics,

00:09:46.880 Spengler has not just been an asthma, but has been fundamentally mysterious.

00:09:51.740 Because there are quite a few philosophical schools

00:09:55.080 that believe, whether it's on the left with Cambry

00:09:58.140 or it's on the right with Spengler,

00:10:00.980 that it's utterly pointless to have attempts at historical analysis

00:10:06.060 which are non-linear and which seek for an answer to the conundrum of history

00:10:11.880 that seeks to at least debate the things

00:10:14.920 and get it to answer questions about the nature of historical reality,

00:10:20.060 they consider that there is no plan.

00:10:22.840 There is nothing other than linear notion in this pattern of time.

00:10:28.100 And that any attempt to find a historical plan,

00:10:34.180 which is other than the received wisdom of a work,

00:10:38.380 is fruitless.

00:10:39.680 They would consider a work like

00:10:41.400 The Decline of the Old Roman Empire by Gibbon

00:10:43.500 to be perfect in its way

00:10:46.300 because it takes the Roman Empire as its topic

00:10:53.040 where you have an enormous unfolding viscally-distorical time

00:10:58.420 and you have the idea that you have many triumphs and many disasters

00:11:03.360 but the end is partly a projection of the beginning.

00:11:08.540 So you have a biography of a society.

00:11:12.740 That's acceptable.

00:11:14.560 What isn't acceptable from this school of thinking,

00:11:17.640 which is the current one in academic orthodoxy at the present time,

00:11:21.060 is to try and find a key philosophical agency to history,

00:11:26.280 to interpret history,

00:11:28.080 that history has a meaning

00:11:29.240 in the way that Thomas Carlyle believed that history had a meaning

00:11:32.460 in the 19th century.

00:11:34.500 And Spence is addicted to finding a meaning in history,

00:11:38.120 which puts him outside of several of the major historical schools

00:11:41.240 to begin with.

00:11:43.620 There's also the fact that he is self-taught

00:11:46.920 and was a sort of autodidact.

00:11:51.060 And a sort of terribly gifted bilitant, 0.88

00:11:54.660 as somebody not completely kindly once said.

00:11:58.300 And history is an area par excellence

00:12:00.280 which only academics really believe that they're entitled to write.

00:12:05.460 So in two areas,

00:12:08.020 academicism and search for ontology in history,

00:12:14.280 search for teleology,

00:12:15.760 the belief that there is a prospective future

00:12:18.860 which can be determined,

00:12:21.580 as Marx believed in a totally different way,

00:12:24.140 and mapped out.

00:12:25.560 Those lie outside of Spence's purview

00:12:27.860 and yet make marginal

00:12:30.120 his historical essay,

00:12:32.700 his attempt

00:12:33.400 at finding ultimate meaning in things

00:12:36.080 in the two-volume enormous work

00:12:38.420 with The Clown of the West,

00:12:39.460 published in 1918 and 1922.

00:12:43.000 So he draws on those primary idealists like Hegel.

00:12:47.800 But I don't think there's much comparison,

00:12:50.260 to be frank,

00:12:51.540 when you get to the work.

00:12:54.080 Because Hegel believes that history

00:12:55.780 will reach its fulcrum

00:12:59.100 and its determination

00:13:00.140 in the idealistic presentation

00:13:02.500 of the Prussian state

00:13:03.700 in history,

00:13:06.600 as a sort of being in history.

00:13:09.340 Whereas for Spence,

00:13:10.980 the Prussian state,

00:13:12.880 although he wanted Germany

00:13:14.040 and the Germany of his time

00:13:15.120 to dominate Europe,

00:13:16.760 was just a part of the West

00:13:18.280 and a part of the cycle of the West

00:13:20.520 that would be doomed to decline,

00:13:23.140 as all of the great civilizations,

00:13:25.060 the Arab,

00:13:26.160 the Eastern Chinese,

00:13:28.480 the medieval,

00:13:29.180 were doomed to decline

00:13:31.160 in their way.

00:13:33.680 Before we talk a little bit more

00:13:35.380 about Germany and his time,

00:13:37.500 actually,

00:13:37.900 I think it'd be good

00:13:38.700 to lay out

00:13:40.180 some of the basic terms

00:13:41.680 of Spengler's history.

00:13:43.780 And he talked about

00:13:46.360 a series of great

00:13:49.280 or high cultures,

00:13:51.440 and these included

00:13:52.360 the Magian culture,

00:13:55.480 which is, I guess,

00:13:56.240 a Semitic culture,

00:13:57.320 and the Apollonian

00:13:58.800 or classical culture,

00:14:00.100 and then Western

00:14:01.240 American culture,

00:14:02.860 which he described

00:14:04.740 as quintessentially

00:14:06.640 Faustian in nature.

00:14:09.600 So, Jonathan,

00:14:10.040 maybe you could

00:14:10.760 elucidate

00:14:12.160 some of these

00:14:13.360 big ideas

00:14:15.100 for our listeners

00:14:16.700 so that they could

00:14:17.680 have an idea

00:14:18.660 of his organic

00:14:20.900 historical sense.

00:14:23.920 just in particular

00:14:27.440 with those

00:14:28.400 three massive

00:14:30.340 cultures.

00:14:32.000 And again,

00:14:32.320 we're not talking

00:14:32.800 about epochs

00:14:33.640 because he's getting

00:14:34.740 away from

00:14:35.520 a sense of time

00:14:37.760 and he's more

00:14:38.680 putting it in terms

00:14:39.400 of culture

00:14:40.220 and a people,

00:14:41.120 a civilization.

00:14:42.580 So maybe you could

00:14:43.400 explain those

00:14:44.600 basic concepts

00:14:45.380 concepts and then

00:14:45.940 also just delineate

00:14:47.960 for our listeners

00:14:49.020 what he means

00:14:50.520 by the Magian

00:14:52.480 and the Apollonian

00:14:53.280 and then finally

00:14:54.400 the Faustian culture,

00:14:55.580 which he felt

00:14:56.500 was coming to a close.

00:14:58.860 Yes,

00:14:59.620 he thought cultures

00:15:00.340 were self-enclosed

00:15:02.120 and were organic

00:15:04.420 and were not

00:15:05.740 time-concentric,

00:15:07.380 although they had

00:15:07.960 a period or an

00:15:08.780 expanse of time

00:15:10.540 associated with them.

00:15:11.700 He sees the

00:15:13.220 Middle Eastern

00:15:13.700 culture as

00:15:14.400 essentially magical

00:15:15.420 and somewhat

00:15:16.440 sterile

00:15:17.120 and introverted 0.99

00:15:19.460 and flat

00:15:20.360 in the culture

00:15:20.960 of the desert.

00:15:22.660 He sees Greek

00:15:23.640 culture as

00:15:25.600 proportioned

00:15:27.900 and massive

00:15:28.620 in its sort

00:15:29.440 of architectural

00:15:30.240 and classical

00:15:31.020 relief.

00:15:32.460 He sees it

00:15:33.180 as less

00:15:34.660 dynamic

00:15:35.180 than the

00:15:36.460 Western culture,

00:15:37.420 more staid,

00:15:38.780 more

00:15:39.000 with a fixity

00:15:40.100 and a tendency

00:15:40.700 towards a

00:15:41.420 preternatural

00:15:41.960 order

00:15:42.400 and a

00:15:43.900 specificity

00:15:44.560 of sign.

00:15:46.040 The Western

00:15:46.520 culture,

00:15:47.140 which he's

00:15:48.180 most keen

00:15:48.800 on,

00:15:50.320 he sees

00:15:50.800 as a partly

00:15:51.320 diabolical

00:15:52.020 culture.

00:15:53.440 He sees

00:15:53.840 as Faustian.

00:15:55.780 He sees

00:15:56.280 as a mismatch

00:15:57.200 and a matching

00:15:57.900 of things

00:15:58.580 that don't

00:15:59.960 coherently

00:16:00.360 go together

00:16:01.000 in other

00:16:01.380 cultures.

00:16:02.860 He sees

00:16:03.300 it as a

00:16:03.720 culture of

00:16:04.180 immense

00:16:04.500 restlessness

00:16:05.580 and absence

00:16:07.360 of an

00:16:07.680 inner sense

00:16:08.200 of ease

00:16:08.780 and with

00:16:10.060 an extraordinary

00:16:10.660 desire for

00:16:11.400 self-transcendence

00:16:12.540 which is

00:16:14.080 a desire

00:16:14.640 to change

00:16:15.440 everything

00:16:15.840 again and

00:16:16.620 again and

00:16:17.280 again to

00:16:18.280 make it new

00:16:19.080 and make it

00:16:20.100 work and

00:16:21.620 make the

00:16:21.960 Western culture

00:16:22.520 the most

00:16:22.900 dynamically

00:16:23.620 aggressive

00:16:24.540 culture on

00:16:25.240 earth.

00:16:25.580 So is he

00:16:27.500 talking about

00:16:28.380 a mindset

00:16:29.420 with this

00:16:31.860 kind of

00:16:33.060 I hesitate

00:16:34.460 to use this

00:16:35.120 term but a

00:16:35.660 collective

00:16:36.060 consciousness

00:16:36.660 so to speak

00:16:37.360 what is he

00:16:38.820 amongst the

00:16:39.560 people that

00:16:40.780 is expressed

00:16:41.700 most fully

00:16:42.360 say in some

00:16:42.880 of the great

00:16:43.400 people of

00:16:44.060 civilization

00:16:44.740 or is that

00:16:46.600 a good way

00:16:46.920 to describe

00:16:47.420 what he's

00:16:47.740 talking about?

00:16:49.140 Yes it's

00:16:49.860 a sort of

00:16:50.400 a civilizational

00:16:51.880 construct of

00:16:52.720 culture

00:16:53.260 permeated through

00:16:54.880 the elite

00:16:55.540 as articulated

00:16:57.100 to and by

00:16:58.020 the masses

00:16:58.600 within the

00:17:00.120 particular

00:17:00.600 civics over 0.67

00:17:02.520 time.

00:17:04.000 It's

00:17:04.400 racially based

00:17:05.140 to an extent

00:17:06.020 but only

00:17:06.520 partly so

00:17:07.480 because his

00:17:08.880 positions are

00:17:10.180 sublimated

00:17:11.000 racialisms 0.50

00:17:11.940 whereby

00:17:13.380 although the

00:17:15.200 Semitic 0.92

00:17:15.660 largely goes

00:17:16.500 with the

00:17:16.800 Median

00:17:17.240 and the

00:17:17.920 Eastern

00:17:18.460 Mediterranean

00:17:20.960 largely goes

00:17:22.100 with the

00:17:22.980 Apollonian

00:17:23.560 and the

00:17:24.480 Western

00:17:25.300 is made

00:17:25.840 up of

00:17:26.440 most of

00:17:29.000 Europe

00:17:29.340 and ex-Europe

00:17:31.100 in the

00:17:32.220 New World

00:17:32.880 and the

00:17:33.540 far regions

00:17:34.120 of the

00:17:34.420 world

00:17:34.720 associated

00:17:35.840 with Western

00:17:36.620 imperial

00:17:37.060 conquests

00:17:37.880 and settlements

00:17:39.380 and North

00:17:41.120 America in

00:17:41.780 particular.

00:17:43.380 The notion

00:17:44.980 that they are

00:17:45.820 purely racial 0.83

00:17:46.660 is not one

00:17:47.320 that she

00:17:47.600 accedes to.

00:17:49.060 He has a

00:17:49.480 Nietzschean

00:17:49.920 concept of

00:17:50.560 race

00:17:50.960 which is

00:17:52.080 that race

00:17:52.500 is important

00:17:53.220 because breeding

00:17:54.900 is the

00:17:55.220 basis of

00:17:55.700 everything

00:17:56.200 but it's

00:17:56.980 too

00:17:57.220 rudimentary

00:17:58.140 for reasons

00:17:59.340 of analysis.

00:18:00.700 For analysis

00:18:01.280 you have to

00:18:01.780 look at the

00:18:02.220 culture and the

00:18:03.000 civics which

00:18:04.000 are created

00:18:04.660 by specific

00:18:06.220 races and

00:18:07.000 intermingled

00:18:08.200 the variants

00:18:09.880 of races

00:18:10.480 over time

00:18:11.440 and

00:18:12.600 pure

00:18:15.740 biology

00:18:16.280 is not

00:18:16.820 enough to

00:18:17.260 describe

00:18:17.700 man's

00:18:18.160 ascent

00:18:18.620 if indeed

00:18:19.220 it has

00:18:19.540 been in

00:18:19.920 ascent

00:18:20.460 rather than

00:18:21.440 the

00:18:21.560 withering

00:18:21.880 to death

00:18:22.380 of prior

00:18:23.560 and acknowledged

00:18:24.140 cultures

00:18:24.680 of whatever

00:18:25.180 beauty.

00:18:27.080 So

00:18:27.200 Spengler

00:18:28.800 is always

00:18:30.660 an unhappy

00:18:31.220 bedfellow

00:18:31.880 for various

00:18:32.520 people

00:18:33.020 because he

00:18:33.800 never fits

00:18:34.360 in with

00:18:34.880 people's

00:18:36.200 preconditions

00:18:37.120 and prior

00:18:37.600 suppositions.

00:18:39.500 There will

00:18:39.840 always be

00:18:40.220 attention

00:18:40.740 even with

00:18:42.340 the

00:18:42.480 racialist

00:18:42.980 right

00:18:43.360 with

00:18:43.640 Spengler

00:18:44.260 as there

00:18:45.320 is with

00:18:46.060 the left

00:18:47.460 over his

00:18:48.200 view

00:18:48.580 pessimistic

00:18:49.300 and

00:18:49.840 non-materialist

00:18:51.380 views of

00:18:51.800 history,

00:18:53.700 his

00:18:53.960 intuitionism,

00:18:55.900 his opening

00:18:56.800 to the

00:18:57.280 subjective

00:18:57.680 element in

00:18:58.320 culture,

00:19:00.000 his belief

00:19:00.660 in the

00:19:02.120 wintering of

00:19:02.600 the soul

00:19:02.980 of a

00:19:03.260 culture

00:19:03.640 and its

00:19:04.480 partial

00:19:04.880 decline

00:19:05.500 over time,

00:19:07.020 his

00:19:07.260 obsession

00:19:07.700 with the

00:19:08.020 conduct of

00:19:08.580 decadence,

00:19:09.240 all of

00:19:11.840 these

00:19:12.220 would not

00:19:14.040 render him

00:19:14.560 attractive to

00:19:15.160 a left

00:19:15.460 wing mind

00:19:15.900 at all.

00:19:17.440 But at

00:19:17.820 the same

00:19:18.180 time,

00:19:19.460 the liberal

00:19:19.860 progressive

00:19:20.340 sees

00:19:20.740 little in

00:19:21.240 him,

00:19:21.480 the man

00:19:21.680 of the

00:19:21.920 centre,

00:19:23.020 because he's

00:19:23.520 too morbid,

00:19:25.160 too

00:19:25.360 mordant and

00:19:25.960 pessimistic,

00:19:27.720 too

00:19:27.860 professorial,

00:19:29.640 and too

00:19:30.640 linked to a

00:19:31.200 prior theory

00:19:32.080 which cuts

00:19:33.520 against their

00:19:34.160 ingrained

00:19:34.620 optimism and

00:19:35.480 feeling that,

00:19:36.200 as you said

00:19:36.580 at the beginning

00:19:37.080 of his

00:19:37.400 tour,

00:19:38.260 the things

00:19:38.640 are getting

00:19:38.980 better and

00:19:39.480 better.

00:19:41.960 Jonathan,

00:19:42.760 why don't you

00:19:43.220 tell us a

00:19:44.000 little bit

00:19:44.540 about this

00:19:45.740 organic story

00:19:47.180 of Western

00:19:48.340 or Faustian

00:19:49.140 culture,

00:19:51.360 and its

00:19:53.300 origins after

00:19:54.540 the collapse

00:19:55.360 of the Roman

00:19:55.760 Empire,

00:19:56.480 and then how

00:19:57.800 he felt

00:19:59.060 that it was

00:19:59.720 declining and

00:20:00.880 ending in

00:20:02.200 his own

00:20:02.540 lifetime.

00:20:03.680 So maybe

00:20:03.920 you could

00:20:04.120 just give us

00:20:04.680 some outlines

00:20:05.900 of Faustian

00:20:08.160 culture's

00:20:09.180 birth and

00:20:10.840 flowering and

00:20:13.100 then decline.

00:20:14.600 What was he

00:20:15.100 talking about?

00:20:15.700 And obviously,

00:20:17.040 in order to

00:20:18.340 talk about

00:20:18.780 these things,

00:20:19.180 you have to

00:20:19.440 paint in

00:20:19.920 really broad

00:20:21.300 strokes,

00:20:22.540 but I think

00:20:23.420 that's good,

00:20:24.560 particularly with

00:20:25.260 a podcast like

00:20:26.500 this.

00:20:26.820 So give our

00:20:27.760 listeners a

00:20:28.500 sense of

00:20:29.960 the story,

00:20:32.100 this organic

00:20:32.540 story of

00:20:33.240 Faustian

00:20:33.620 culture.

00:20:34.680 Well,

00:20:36.260 I think he

00:20:36.620 thinks,

00:20:37.200 after the

00:20:37.780 collapse of

00:20:38.160 the Roman

00:20:38.320 Empire,

00:20:38.800 I think he

00:20:39.180 thinks that

00:20:39.940 the classical

00:20:41.180 world comes to

00:20:41.920 an end and

00:20:42.500 the medieval

00:20:42.920 world as

00:20:44.260 such begins,

00:20:46.080 that the

00:20:46.380 medieval world

00:20:47.320 is a static

00:20:48.220 and enclosed

00:20:49.780 civilization,

00:20:50.900 which is a

00:20:52.020 magical one

00:20:53.000 based upon

00:20:54.300 sort of

00:20:54.640 totem and

00:20:55.220 taboo,

00:20:56.440 and based

00:20:56.840 upon a

00:20:58.580 stiff and

00:20:59.840 regulated

00:21:00.460 cosmology

00:21:01.260 that is

00:21:02.620 only unsettled

00:21:03.620 by the

00:21:04.140 return of

00:21:04.700 classical

00:21:05.060 wisdom in

00:21:06.640 what becomes

00:21:07.520 the proto-

00:21:08.120 renaissance

00:21:08.740 and then the

00:21:09.960 renaissance.

00:21:11.360 And the

00:21:11.740 renaissance

00:21:12.180 inflames the

00:21:15.360 entire civilization

00:21:16.420 mentally and

00:21:17.300 culturally and

00:21:20.100 sends an

00:21:21.060 enormous

00:21:21.500 coursing sort

00:21:22.640 of torrent of

00:21:24.880 energy through

00:21:25.580 it, which

00:21:27.020 leads to an

00:21:29.360 unnapping and

00:21:30.360 an unfolding of

00:21:31.660 new visions

00:21:32.460 and new

00:21:32.900 vistas,

00:21:34.660 thereby we

00:21:35.300 see the

00:21:35.620 middle ages

00:21:36.100 replaced by

00:21:37.960 a post-medieval

00:21:38.720 Europe that

00:21:40.240 looks back to

00:21:40.860 the classical

00:21:41.320 period, but

00:21:42.820 based upon the

00:21:43.540 stolidity and

00:21:44.300 the solidity and

00:21:45.980 the transcendental

00:21:47.140 maddianship of

00:21:49.280 the middle ages.

00:21:50.680 And it's the

00:21:52.020 renaissance and

00:21:53.820 the scientific

00:21:54.400 methodology that

00:21:55.380 gives rise to

00:21:56.220 it, which

00:21:56.920 is the return

00:21:57.900 to a particular

00:21:59.060 intellectual

00:21:59.540 inheritance of

00:22:00.300 the Greeks,

00:22:01.680 that gives

00:22:02.240 man this

00:22:03.020 sort of 0.94

00:22:03.920 diabolical

00:22:05.120 pact element

00:22:05.920 in the

00:22:07.160 Western cosmos.

00:22:09.260 This is the

00:22:09.780 idea that

00:22:10.600 Faust will

00:22:12.080 literally

00:22:12.700 sell his

00:22:14.720 soul to 0.94

00:22:15.140 Mephistopheles

00:22:15.820 for knowledge.

00:22:17.320 He will

00:22:18.300 sell his

00:22:18.860 soul for

00:22:19.660 power over

00:22:21.620 given things,

00:22:23.240 for the power

00:22:23.900 of magic

00:22:24.400 almost,

00:22:25.000 in the

00:22:26.980 interpretation of

00:22:27.920 physical reality

00:22:28.780 and his

00:22:29.960 ability to

00:22:30.580 hold

00:22:30.860 swerve

00:22:31.500 over the

00:22:36.480 physical world

00:22:37.500 with which the

00:22:38.240 sciences are

00:22:38.780 concerned.

00:22:40.940 And Western

00:22:41.740 man begins a

00:22:42.460 transmutation of

00:22:43.500 everything in

00:22:44.200 life, of

00:22:45.640 every science,

00:22:47.160 of every art,

00:22:48.980 of all forms of

00:22:49.780 economic dealing,

00:22:51.920 all forms of

00:22:52.800 culture and

00:22:53.400 civilizational

00:22:54.120 intent are

00:22:57.620 recalibrated and

00:23:00.480 cast anew through

00:23:01.640 this prism of

00:23:03.500 Christian fire. 0.73

00:23:05.260 and this

00:23:07.520 enables the

00:23:08.260 West to

00:23:08.960 set out,

00:23:09.640 as the

00:23:10.080 Athenians had 0.99

00:23:11.220 once done,

00:23:12.320 in a

00:23:12.620 restricted

00:23:13.060 Grecian

00:23:13.620 compass to

00:23:14.960 conquer much

00:23:16.540 of the

00:23:16.780 known world

00:23:17.520 and to

00:23:18.280 subdue it to

00:23:19.040 their own

00:23:19.500 restless

00:23:19.920 tasking and

00:23:21.640 desire for

00:23:22.320 self-overcoming

00:23:23.300 at every

00:23:24.180 possible instant.

00:23:25.720 So the

00:23:26.460 West is seen

00:23:27.220 as in some

00:23:27.780 ways the

00:23:28.100 culture of

00:23:28.580 the Superman

00:23:29.040 in Nietzschean

00:23:30.740 terms.

00:23:32.300 Reaching out

00:23:33.080 across the

00:23:33.560 world,

00:23:34.900 reshaping

00:23:35.500 other cultures,

00:23:37.180 interacting with

00:23:38.120 them in often

00:23:38.660 destructive,

00:23:39.500 very creative

00:23:40.220 ways, to

00:23:41.700 release more

00:23:42.360 energy, to

00:23:43.980 enhance more

00:23:44.740 transcendence, to

00:23:46.660 enhance more

00:23:47.520 creativity, to

00:23:49.380 lead to more

00:23:50.000 thirsty impacts

00:23:50.880 and bargains,

00:23:52.740 and then to

00:23:53.680 become even

00:23:55.600 more enraptured

00:23:57.760 of its own

00:23:58.360 colossal strength

00:23:59.500 and vigour

00:24:00.120 by importing

00:24:01.860 even more

00:24:02.900 energy, through

00:24:04.560 even greater

00:24:05.280 and deeper

00:24:05.880 and more

00:24:06.300 resonantial

00:24:06.920 fast impacts,

00:24:08.620 until the

00:24:09.120 thing

00:24:09.500 peters on the

00:24:12.380 brink of

00:24:12.760 absurdity to a

00:24:13.620 degree, because

00:24:15.120 the West

00:24:16.800 becomes so

00:24:17.520 enamored of

00:24:18.040 its own

00:24:18.440 model that

00:24:19.820 it can't see

00:24:20.660 that it's

00:24:21.220 beginning like

00:24:21.880 all cultures

00:24:22.660 to engage

00:24:23.960 upon ineffable

00:24:25.100 decline.

00:24:26.600 What creates

00:24:27.960 the decline?

00:24:28.740 What leads

00:24:30.380 to decadence?

00:24:31.340 What turns

00:24:33.260 self-overcoming,

00:24:34.600 continual self-

00:24:35.460 overcoming, into

00:24:36.960 decadence?

00:24:38.720 Probably

00:24:39.400 repetition, and

00:24:41.120 probably the

00:24:41.560 fact that he

00:24:42.020 believes that

00:24:42.640 everything is

00:24:44.340 pre-programmed

00:24:45.540 like a computer

00:24:46.660 chip to

00:24:47.220 decay over

00:24:47.860 time.

00:24:48.660 You can only

00:24:49.760 go to the

00:24:50.220 world so

00:24:50.720 often.

00:24:51.160 revolution, and

00:24:52.780 probably the

00:24:55.320 spread of

00:24:57.160 democratic,

00:24:59.000 liberal

00:24:59.380 humanist, and

00:25:01.060 materialist

00:25:01.640 ideas, and

00:25:04.020 the disjunction

00:25:04.660 between the

00:25:05.320 Enlightenment and

00:25:06.640 the Renaissance.

00:25:08.420 The Renaissance is

00:25:09.380 seen by most

00:25:10.300 Enlightenment

00:25:10.800 thinkers as a

00:25:11.560 precursor of the

00:25:13.220 Enlightenment, but

00:25:15.040 who doubtless

00:25:15.660 sees the

00:25:16.240 Enlightenment as

00:25:17.860 the giving

00:25:19.260 way of the

00:25:20.900 Faustian

00:25:21.380 bargain to

00:25:23.160 decadence, who

00:25:26.320 untrammeled ideas

00:25:27.460 about the rule of

00:25:28.260 the majority, which

00:25:30.300 the people who put

00:25:31.020 them forward, he

00:25:31.780 believes, must know

00:25:32.800 absurd, because the

00:25:34.740 majority of men can

00:25:35.560 never decide any

00:25:36.340 question of any

00:25:37.700 importance amongst

00:25:39.100 themselves.

00:25:39.780 the extension of

00:25:43.080 the women would 0.99

00:25:45.500 be given the

00:25:46.020 vote, and

00:25:47.040 would be allowed

00:25:47.700 into the

00:25:50.080 function hall of

00:25:50.880 the male, the

00:25:53.320 liberal

00:25:54.900 humanism that

00:25:55.660 would increasingly

00:25:56.400 refuse to

00:25:58.700 distinguish between

00:25:59.640 patterns of

00:26:00.280 being, and

00:26:01.300 hierarchies in

00:26:02.240 nature, as

00:26:04.280 they express

00:26:04.700 themselves in

00:26:05.320 society.

00:26:06.520 So really, it's

00:26:08.700 the Enlightenment

00:26:09.740 and its

00:26:10.860 definition of

00:26:11.660 the West, which

00:26:13.540 is necessary,

00:26:15.540 because in my

00:26:16.420 reading of his

00:26:17.080 Cadence of

00:26:17.720 History, is

00:26:19.340 that the

00:26:22.360 decline is

00:26:22.920 necessary, and

00:26:23.940 therefore is

00:26:24.480 inborn, and

00:26:25.980 the forces which

00:26:26.780 are there, rather

00:26:27.980 like illness and

00:26:28.780 death in the

00:26:29.220 individual, are

00:26:30.660 there to

00:26:31.080 permit change

00:26:32.560 and renewal in

00:26:33.200 the future, and

00:26:34.440 the ending of a

00:26:35.080 cycle which is

00:26:35.820 natural, as it

00:26:37.280 is in the

00:26:38.020 biological world.

00:26:39.100 So he

00:26:40.020 doesn't see

00:26:40.620 evidence as a

00:26:41.380 disaster, he

00:26:42.820 sees it as a

00:26:43.660 necessity.

00:26:45.780 So are we

00:26:46.280 still living in

00:26:47.420 an enlightened

00:26:47.960 age, in a

00:26:49.360 way, that that

00:26:50.800 was the turning

00:26:51.600 point, and

00:26:52.320 we're kind of

00:26:53.360 the last

00:26:54.020 dregs of the

00:26:55.960 Enlightenment?

00:26:56.400 you could

00:26:57.960 interpret it in

00:26:58.720 that way, although

00:26:59.440 of course, at

00:27:00.040 the end of the

00:27:00.580 decline in the

00:27:01.040 West, in the

00:27:01.560 second volume, he

00:27:03.520 preaches a new

00:27:04.340 Caesarism, that

00:27:05.260 there will be a

00:27:05.880 democratic

00:27:06.340 Caesarism, which

00:27:09.320 of course came to

00:27:12.700 be true.

00:27:14.400 Throughout the

00:27:14.980 first half, or the

00:27:16.380 first, the latter

00:27:19.880 third of the

00:27:21.880 first quadrant of

00:27:22.920 the 20th

00:27:23.500 century, his

00:27:25.000 view that

00:27:25.700 democratic

00:27:27.220 niceties would 0.97

00:27:28.020 be replaced by

00:27:28.880 a much more

00:27:29.400 Machiavellian and

00:27:30.920 realistic politics,

00:27:32.840 the politics of

00:27:33.680 ruthless real

00:27:34.400 politique, associated,

00:27:38.080 even though he

00:27:38.700 never advocated it,

00:27:40.160 with fascism,

00:27:41.880 although some of

00:27:42.860 his political

00:27:43.400 sayings are close

00:27:45.100 to that of a

00:27:45.840 fascistic, or

00:27:47.440 fascistic 0.70

00:27:47.980 conservative. 0.83

00:27:51.720 That's why, again,

00:27:53.000 he falls between

00:27:53.780 two camps.

00:27:55.420 He's not

00:27:55.860 fascistic enough

00:27:56.740 for those people

00:27:57.480 who are enamoured

00:27:58.140 of those governments

00:27:59.080 and regimes at a

00:28:01.620 particular time, but

00:28:03.500 nor is he

00:28:03.940 conservative enough

00:28:05.000 not to be

00:28:05.920 associated with

00:28:06.800 them, at least

00:28:07.880 through the

00:28:08.260 glamour of

00:28:08.720 nostalgia.

00:28:09.940 So he's too

00:28:11.960 quasi-fascistic

00:28:13.440 for many

00:28:13.920 conservatives,

00:28:15.100 particularly now,

00:28:16.980 but he's also

00:28:17.920 too conservative

00:28:18.700 for thorough

00:28:21.040 going fascistic

00:28:21.920 types, and

00:28:23.240 that was his

00:28:23.660 attitude, of

00:28:24.260 course, to

00:28:25.900 one of the

00:28:27.580 most notorious

00:28:28.040 governments in

00:28:28.680 the Western

00:28:29.020 world, which

00:28:29.600 you lived through

00:28:30.080 the early stages

00:28:30.880 of in the

00:28:32.000 1930s in his

00:28:33.080 own country.

00:28:34.100 Right.

00:28:34.460 Actually, we

00:28:35.000 talked about

00:28:35.740 that, and

00:28:36.240 actually, the

00:28:37.300 Nazi regime

00:28:39.060 banned his

00:28:39.960 book, The

00:28:41.000 Hour of

00:28:41.520 Decision, which

00:28:43.340 again,

00:28:44.020 I'm sure

00:28:46.080 in most

00:28:48.240 of the

00:28:48.420 modern mind,

00:28:49.240 they would

00:28:49.800 probably just

00:28:50.680 lump someone

00:28:51.700 like Spengler 0.81

00:28:52.600 on in there

00:28:53.760 with Hitler 0.84

00:28:54.300 as evil 0.96

00:28:58.020 right-wingers,

00:28:58.900 but obviously

00:28:59.700 that's certainly

00:29:01.680 not the way

00:29:02.180 they saw it

00:29:02.860 at the time.

00:29:04.020 So maybe

00:29:04.400 you could put a

00:29:05.100 little more

00:29:05.340 pressure on

00:29:05.860 this, because

00:29:06.160 this is an

00:29:06.680 interesting issue

00:29:07.680 of Spengler's

00:29:10.800 life in an

00:29:12.460 age which

00:29:13.100 could be even

00:29:13.720 described as

00:29:14.380 democratic

00:29:15.060 Caesarism, that

00:29:17.920 is one based

00:29:19.100 on, say,

00:29:20.700 populism, maybe

00:29:21.620 even popular

00:29:22.140 sovereignty, but

00:29:23.460 then one that

00:29:24.000 is harsh and

00:29:26.060 brutal in many

00:29:28.300 ways, you

00:29:29.120 know, enamored

00:29:30.340 with real

00:29:30.860 politique and

00:29:31.640 so on and

00:29:31.900 so forth.

00:29:32.280 So maybe we

00:29:32.960 can talk, I

00:29:33.580 think it's a

00:29:33.940 very interesting

00:29:34.420 topic of

00:29:35.540 Spengler's

00:29:36.780 own life.

00:29:39.000 Yes, there's

00:29:41.480 always been a

00:29:42.500 liberal qualm

00:29:43.540 here as to

00:29:44.560 why he

00:29:45.440 didn't support

00:29:49.580 the Nazi

00:29:49.980 regime.

00:29:51.900 He did vote

00:29:52.860 for Hitler, 0.65

00:29:53.240 it was against

00:29:53.960 Hindenburg in

00:29:54.940 the presidential

00:29:55.480 election, which

00:29:56.220 of course Hitler 0.94

00:29:56.700 lost, and

00:29:58.000 Hindenburg

00:29:58.300 retains

00:29:58.760 presidency

00:29:59.260 until he

00:29:59.780 died in

00:30:00.140 office.

00:30:02.260 And then it

00:30:02.700 was after

00:30:03.180 the Terschelter 0.92

00:30:03.920 and it was

00:30:04.940 just rolled

00:30:05.760 up and it

00:30:06.840 became one of

00:30:07.460 Hitler's many 0.98

00:30:07.980 officers as

00:30:08.740 he became

00:30:09.280 supreme leader

00:30:10.080 of all

00:30:10.440 elements of

00:30:10.960 the state

00:30:11.520 and the

00:30:12.640 office of

00:30:13.080 president and

00:30:13.660 chancellor was

00:30:14.240 amalgamated

00:30:14.920 into that of

00:30:15.600 the leader

00:30:16.000 figure.

00:30:19.720 He also

00:30:20.660 put a

00:30:21.400 swastika outside

00:30:22.260 his logic

00:30:22.780 windows once

00:30:24.120 to annoy the

00:30:24.840 neighbours with 0.93

00:30:25.880 his sister,

00:30:27.420 saying as he

00:30:28.200 unveiled it

00:30:28.860 that one

00:30:29.140 should always

00:30:29.640 be prepared to

00:30:33.000 pay the price

00:30:33.620 for annoying

00:30:34.080 people, but

00:30:35.980 at the same

00:30:36.480 time he

00:30:39.060 thought of

00:30:39.520 them as

00:30:39.820 irretrievably

00:30:40.660 vulgar and

00:30:43.300 without high

00:30:43.900 culture, very

00:30:45.220 much James

00:30:45.700 Jung's snobbish 0.99

00:30:47.140 intellectual

00:30:47.720 attitude towards

00:30:48.560 them.

00:30:49.820 He wasn't so

00:30:50.380 much worried

00:30:50.840 about the

00:30:51.460 social origins

00:30:52.280 of many of

00:30:52.900 them, which 0.88

00:30:54.120 is what

00:30:54.440 convulsed the

00:30:55.080 German old

00:30:55.640 right, in

00:30:57.020 which Spengler

00:30:57.580 would have

00:30:57.860 been more

00:30:58.260 comfortable, but

00:31:00.020 he was

00:31:00.680 concerned about

00:31:01.560 their cultural

00:31:02.140 ignorance as 0.64

00:31:02.800 far as he 0.94

00:31:03.200 was concerned,

00:31:04.280 and the

00:31:04.960 greatness and

00:31:05.500 glory of what

00:31:06.160 it was to

00:31:06.700 be German

00:31:08.460 seeming cultural

00:31:09.880 terms.

00:31:12.360 In some ways

00:31:12.840 he's too

00:31:13.280 fair and too

00:31:14.780 stark and too

00:31:15.840 elitist to

00:31:16.480 figure.

00:31:18.040 For him, just to

00:31:18.900 make mouth-watering

00:31:20.080 speeches about

00:31:20.820 Germany and

00:31:22.240 German identity

00:31:23.040 entirely begins

00:31:24.340 with what you

00:31:25.140 mean by

00:31:25.620 Germany, what

00:31:26.420 do you mean by

00:31:27.040 German cultural

00:31:27.760 identity, unless

00:31:29.380 you're highly

00:31:29.920 educated, civilized

00:31:33.160 and knowledgeable

00:31:33.780 about what it

00:31:34.640 means to be

00:31:35.320 German or to

00:31:36.720 be European in 0.52

00:31:37.600 extensa, these

00:31:39.320 political remarks

00:31:40.380 are slightly

00:31:40.940 meaningless.

00:31:42.320 He's one

00:31:42.700 intervention into

00:31:43.420 politics when he

00:31:44.300 was attempting

00:31:45.660 to get the

00:31:46.300 power for a

00:31:47.660 German on

00:31:49.260 Lugendorf's

00:31:49.900 general staff

00:31:50.620 during the

00:31:51.060 First War,

00:31:52.080 General von

00:31:52.640 Schecht, I

00:31:53.340 think, didn't

00:31:55.700 really go

00:31:56.280 anywhere because

00:31:57.580 his view of

00:31:58.520 practical politics

00:31:59.600 as a man of

00:32:00.960 the study was

00:32:02.520 rather, probably

00:32:05.520 overly

00:32:06.140 conspiratorial and

00:32:07.540 sort of overly

00:32:08.500 verified, like a

00:32:10.520 lot of academic

00:32:11.160 intellectuals, he

00:32:11.960 didn't make a

00:32:12.440 good politician.

00:32:14.200 But at the

00:32:14.600 same time,

00:32:16.440 although he

00:32:17.040 despised the

00:32:17.700 buy my

00:32:18.100 republic in

00:32:18.740 regard to

00:32:19.260 did his

00:32:19.680 and unnecessary

00:32:20.840 appendage to

00:32:22.660 the glory of

00:32:23.500 the German

00:32:23.860 Empire that

00:32:24.540 you preceded

00:32:25.120 it, he

00:32:27.580 was actually

00:32:28.200 not particularly

00:32:30.100 enamoured of

00:32:30.660 the Germans,

00:32:31.900 partly because he

00:32:32.540 believed they

00:32:32.980 were too hostile

00:32:33.600 to other

00:32:34.040 European peoples.

00:32:36.800 And he

00:32:37.580 believed that

00:32:38.240 the coming

00:32:39.300 battles were

00:32:40.020 civilisational and

00:32:42.040 there should be

00:32:42.480 alliances with

00:32:43.240 other European

00:32:43.880 nation-states

00:32:44.840 against the

00:32:46.800 hordes of

00:32:47.380 Asia and

00:32:48.420 Africa and

00:32:49.680 the Far

00:32:50.060 East that

00:32:51.460 would be the

00:32:51.940 real enemies

00:32:52.440 in the

00:32:52.760 future.

00:32:54.320 So he had

00:32:55.260 an almost

00:32:55.960 Nietzschean,

00:32:56.700 good European

00:32:57.360 sense, or

00:32:58.200 one that was

00:32:59.280 almost similar

00:32:59.860 to maybe even

00:33:01.260 Lothrop

00:33:01.620 Stoddard and

00:33:02.380 some other

00:33:02.880 people in

00:33:03.440 that general

00:33:04.680 time period.

00:33:05.320 That's

00:33:06.000 right, he

00:33:06.640 sort of, to

00:33:10.300 a leftist

00:33:10.820 mind, he's

00:33:11.520 almost as

00:33:12.060 right as

00:33:12.600 Hitler, but 0.85

00:33:13.140 he doesn't

00:33:13.460 agree with

00:33:13.880 his views.

00:33:16.180 That's the

00:33:16.860 sort of,

00:33:18.900 just as an

00:33:21.940 enormous number

00:33:22.540 of Latin

00:33:22.840 intellectuals,

00:33:23.540 of course,

00:33:23.780 didn't agree

00:33:24.180 with Stalin.

00:33:26.700 So there's

00:33:28.440 a degree to

00:33:29.000 which he

00:33:30.620 also didn't

00:33:31.780 entirely agree

00:33:33.080 with the

00:33:33.780 aggressive,

00:33:34.540 sort of

00:33:35.260 technological

00:33:36.580 features in

00:33:37.580 Third Reich, 0.76

00:33:38.720 which was

00:33:39.620 romantic and

00:33:40.500 realist and

00:33:41.620 agrarian at

00:33:42.480 one level,

00:33:43.600 and yet

00:33:43.820 embraced

00:33:44.260 motorways and

00:33:45.360 rockets and

00:33:46.860 high technology

00:33:47.680 at another,

00:33:49.080 because he

00:33:49.440 believed that

00:33:50.000 technology had

00:33:50.720 become a part

00:33:51.500 of the

00:33:51.720 statement of

00:33:53.500 the modern

00:33:53.860 man, very

00:33:54.400 much prefiguring

00:33:55.180 Heidegger's

00:33:55.800 thinking in

00:33:57.000 this regard.

00:34:00.760 And also,

00:34:02.040 of course,

00:34:02.360 he didn't

00:34:02.680 share the

00:34:03.120 anti-Semitism

00:34:03.700 in Iowa

00:34:04.200 particularly,

00:34:05.800 while in

00:34:07.500 no sense

00:34:08.020 being

00:34:08.340 philo-Semitic

00:34:09.520 about Nietzsche,

00:34:11.220 he didn't

00:34:12.600 share the

00:34:13.200 crude,

00:34:13.980 drew-baiting,

00:34:14.860 beer-hall

00:34:16.420 attitudes that

00:34:19.040 swirled around

00:34:21.340 the German

00:34:21.780 rise,

00:34:23.600 which were

00:34:24.160 not

00:34:24.420 civilizationly

00:34:25.380 part of the

00:34:25.960 way he

00:34:26.320 perceived

00:34:26.680 reality,

00:34:27.700 because he

00:34:28.520 didn't view

00:34:29.080 the world

00:34:29.480 conspiratorially,

00:34:31.200 or

00:34:31.580 metaphysically

00:34:32.320 conspiratorially,

00:34:33.600 he viewed the

00:34:34.180 world in

00:34:34.720 terms of

00:34:35.160 these great

00:34:35.680 overarching

00:34:36.340 abstractions of

00:34:37.860 cultural

00:34:38.240 civilizations,

00:34:39.620 of which

00:34:40.020 Germany was 0.95

00:34:40.600 only a part.

00:34:42.540 He also was a

00:34:43.880 pessimist,

00:34:44.520 and he didn't

00:34:44.980 share the

00:34:45.720 extreme and

00:34:48.060 rather myopic

00:34:48.860 optimism of that

00:34:49.860 regime,

00:34:50.880 which was very

00:34:51.540 shrill,

00:34:52.580 particularly on

00:34:53.140 its own

00:34:53.460 behalf.

00:34:54.020 So,

00:34:56.640 Jonathan,

00:34:57.040 what kind of

00:34:58.020 ideas did

00:34:58.900 Spengler have

00:34:59.900 for the

00:35:00.460 future,

00:35:01.460 and did

00:35:03.460 he see the

00:35:04.000 rise of a

00:35:04.740 new civilization?

00:35:06.440 You know,

00:35:06.660 I was actually,

00:35:07.700 this past

00:35:08.240 weekend,

00:35:08.800 I attended the

00:35:09.820 American Renaissance

00:35:10.600 Conference,

00:35:11.500 and Dr.

00:35:12.740 Richard Lynn

00:35:13.440 was there,

00:35:14.180 and he gave

00:35:15.280 a very

00:35:15.740 enjoyable and

00:35:17.200 informative talk

00:35:18.240 about eugenics,

00:35:19.940 actually,

00:35:20.560 but he ended

00:35:21.860 by talking

00:35:22.780 about

00:35:23.340 the world

00:35:26.260 of the

00:35:26.740 21st and

00:35:27.660 probably

00:35:28.100 22nd,

00:35:28.960 maybe 23rd

00:35:29.880 century being

00:35:31.160 that of the

00:35:31.920 East,

00:35:32.620 and China in

00:35:33.960 particular.

00:35:35.340 Do you think,

00:35:36.240 did Spengler talk

00:35:37.200 about any of

00:35:37.720 this,

00:35:37.960 or did he

00:35:38.800 believe that

00:35:40.240 a new

00:35:42.040 civilization would

00:35:43.260 arise,

00:35:44.020 that maybe an

00:35:44.800 Oriental

00:35:45.360 civilization might

00:35:46.320 have a new

00:35:47.640 rebirth?

00:35:49.600 Or did he

00:35:50.380 talk about this,

00:35:51.000 or maybe you

00:35:51.500 could even

00:35:51.860 speculate it,

00:35:53.020 speculate on

00:35:53.880 it yourself?

00:35:56.680 Yes,

00:35:57.180 he didn't

00:35:57.520 really speak

00:35:58.420 of it.

00:35:59.040 He sort of

00:35:59.900 sounded the

00:36:01.500 death knell

00:36:03.520 of another

00:36:03.900 present West

00:36:04.720 that was

00:36:06.560 exhausted at

00:36:07.220 the end of

00:36:07.540 the Great

00:36:07.840 War.

00:36:08.940 His thesis

00:36:09.380 was misunderstood,

00:36:11.320 the tens of

00:36:11.800 thousands of

00:36:12.360 coppers that

00:36:13.040 made him from

00:36:13.740 a penniless

00:36:14.480 living in

00:36:16.500 gentile poverty

00:36:17.260 intellectual

00:36:17.920 culture into

00:36:19.340 a sort of

00:36:20.340 major cultural

00:36:21.100 figure throughout

00:36:21.800 Germany and

00:36:23.320 the West was 0.75

00:36:24.940 based on a

00:36:25.460 misnomer.

00:36:26.600 The massive

00:36:27.060 cultured people,

00:36:29.040 of course,

00:36:29.540 we're talking

00:36:29.960 yourselves in

00:36:30.820 tens and

00:36:31.380 hundreds of

00:36:31.860 thousands,

00:36:32.460 not the

00:36:32.740 millions,

00:36:33.880 who bought

00:36:34.380 his enormous

00:36:34.920 book and

00:36:35.560 some of the

00:36:36.020 others,

00:36:37.140 and he made

00:36:37.640 him moderately

00:36:38.200 wealthy as a

00:36:38.980 consequence,

00:36:39.960 and able to

00:36:40.480 live independently.

00:36:42.220 They interpreted

00:36:43.020 the book as

00:36:44.200 an explanation

00:36:44.800 for Germany's

00:36:45.520 defeat in the

00:36:46.180 First World

00:36:46.640 War, and

00:36:48.500 because it

00:36:50.040 basically put it

00:36:51.020 into world

00:36:52.040 historical and

00:36:53.060 cosmological terms,

00:36:54.760 it exominated

00:36:55.540 Germany from

00:36:56.260 a personal

00:36:56.740 defeat.

00:36:58.420 It also

00:36:58.780 seemed so

00:36:59.920 scholarly and

00:37:00.840 sort of

00:37:01.100 well-wrought,

00:37:03.700 and was not

00:37:05.020 propagandistic,

00:37:06.220 it was not

00:37:06.640 the stab in

00:37:07.140 the back

00:37:07.780 of mythology,

00:37:10.120 it was not

00:37:10.500 the fact that

00:37:10.880 they were being

00:37:11.160 let down by

00:37:11.920 forces at

00:37:12.520 home,

00:37:13.020 what was

00:37:15.180 it,

00:37:15.300 the normative

00:37:15.840 liberal view

00:37:16.620 that they

00:37:16.940 just run

00:37:17.460 out of

00:37:17.860 men,

00:37:18.280 run out

00:37:18.600 of material,

00:37:20.060 run out

00:37:20.500 of resources,

00:37:22.140 and been

00:37:23.700 defeated in

00:37:24.360 that way.

00:37:26.820 So people

00:37:27.980 stopped in

00:37:28.620 his book

00:37:29.000 really on

00:37:29.500 the misnomer,

00:37:30.960 because what

00:37:32.060 he was saying

00:37:32.840 was that

00:37:33.820 Germany's

00:37:34.500 defeat was

00:37:35.180 part of a

00:37:35.800 pattern of

00:37:36.320 defeats that

00:37:37.540 were going

00:37:37.960 on within

00:37:38.440 the civilization

00:37:39.300 at a

00:37:40.400 particular

00:37:40.720 time.

00:37:42.220 He

00:37:42.460 deposited the

00:37:43.000 idea that

00:37:43.600 these

00:37:43.800 defeats could

00:37:44.360 be arrested

00:37:45.040 for a

00:37:46.180 time by

00:37:47.620 democratic

00:37:48.220 athesism and

00:37:49.600 various forms

00:37:50.280 of populism

00:37:50.980 for which he

00:37:51.460 had a

00:37:51.740 distaste,

00:37:52.540 actually,

00:37:53.680 but which he

00:37:54.120 believed to be

00:37:54.680 necessary at

00:37:56.120 this time in

00:37:56.720 the cycle.

00:37:58.640 And in

00:37:58.880 Manning

00:37:59.180 Technics,

00:37:59.720 for example,

00:38:00.420 there's a

00:38:00.700 quite sort of

00:38:01.260 ruthless

00:38:01.680 extolling of

00:38:03.260 the virtues of

00:38:04.100 some of

00:38:04.440 these sorts of

00:38:05.000 regimes up to

00:38:06.340 a point.

00:38:06.960 but he

00:38:08.140 never thought

00:38:08.640 that they

00:38:08.980 were the

00:38:10.200 be-all and

00:38:10.720 end-all for

00:38:11.280 culture.

00:38:12.980 And so his

00:38:13.480 belief is that

00:38:14.080 the West would 0.98

00:38:14.640 continue to

00:38:15.160 decline throughout

00:38:16.740 the 20th

00:38:17.340 century.

00:38:19.080 And one of

00:38:20.020 Spendler's

00:38:20.580 offshoots,

00:38:21.180 of course,

00:38:22.160 is the

00:38:22.500 Doctrine of

00:38:22.940 the Clash

00:38:23.280 of Civilizations,

00:38:24.840 which is made

00:38:26.040 famous by that

00:38:27.020 book,

00:38:27.500 The Clash of

00:38:28.060 Civilizations.

00:38:29.300 Right.

00:38:29.820 By Samuel

00:38:30.240 Huntington.

00:38:30.800 Yeah,

00:38:31.760 it's written

00:38:32.120 about,

00:38:32.600 what,

00:38:32.960 15 years

00:38:33.780 ago now?

00:38:34.620 Or so,

00:38:35.140 yeah.

00:38:37.140 Now,

00:38:37.820 that's a

00:38:38.240 Spenglerian 0.94

00:38:38.880 thesis,

00:38:39.420 even though

00:38:39.800 he may not

00:38:40.260 like to

00:38:40.780 admit to

00:38:42.300 be influenced

00:38:42.840 by Spengler,

00:38:43.640 some people

00:38:44.080 don't choose

00:38:44.720 to.

00:38:45.840 You know,

00:38:46.100 all sorts of

00:38:46.560 people like

00:38:46.940 the Beats

00:38:47.520 and the

00:38:47.880 left,

00:38:49.580 or

00:38:49.980 metacultural

00:38:51.380 left,

00:38:51.800 let's put it

00:38:52.180 that way,

00:38:52.580 like Barrows

00:38:53.260 and

00:38:53.420 Ginsburg

00:38:54.380 and

00:38:54.780 Kerouac,

00:38:55.660 who openly

00:38:56.060 admit to

00:38:56.560 being strongly

00:38:57.120 influenced

00:38:57.460 by Spengler.

00:38:58.420 But other

00:38:58.980 people are

00:38:59.400 very reluctant

00:39:00.020 to even

00:39:01.160 admit the

00:39:01.640 fact that

00:39:02.020 he's come

00:39:02.380 anywhere near

00:39:02.960 them and

00:39:04.020 their thinking

00:39:04.520 at all.

00:39:05.960 Nevertheless,

00:39:07.540 the idea

00:39:08.160 that other

00:39:08.660 civilizations

00:39:09.260 will rise,

00:39:11.300 particularly

00:39:11.640 in the

00:39:11.940 Far East,

00:39:13.560 and will

00:39:14.140 challenge

00:39:14.600 the West

00:39:15.040 of Germany

00:39:15.560 later in

00:39:17.360 the last

00:39:17.760 century,

00:39:18.820 don't forget

00:39:19.200 he died

00:39:19.620 in 1936,

00:39:22.240 is indisputable

00:39:25.440 from the

00:39:25.820 nature of

00:39:26.240 his work.

00:39:27.100 But he

00:39:27.360 doesn't go

00:39:27.780 on to

00:39:28.120 specify it

00:39:28.920 very much

00:39:29.580 he deals

00:39:30.820 with the

00:39:31.880 second volume

00:39:32.660 of the

00:39:32.860 decline of

00:39:33.280 the West

00:39:33.600 basically

00:39:34.360 closes on

00:39:36.280 the turnaround

00:39:37.560 of the

00:39:37.960 democratic

00:39:38.420 theismism

00:39:39.100 and the

00:39:40.120 fact that

00:39:40.440 the West

00:39:40.820 is nevertheless

00:39:41.520 going into

00:39:43.000 an autumnal

00:39:43.740 and wintery

00:39:44.440 stage and

00:39:45.800 leads it to

00:39:46.320 that.

00:39:47.600 But lots

00:39:47.980 of people,

00:39:48.440 of course,

00:39:48.660 take up the

00:39:49.140 mantle.

00:39:50.780 Jocki's

00:39:51.240 views are

00:39:52.500 strongly

00:39:53.040 Spenglerian,

00:39:53.880 even though

00:39:55.040 he fills

00:39:57.800 in

00:39:58.020 Spengler's

00:39:58.820 work

00:39:59.280 by

00:40:01.380 essentially

00:40:01.940 giving it

00:40:02.500 a National

00:40:02.860 Socialist

00:40:03.420 Register.

00:40:04.980 In some

00:40:05.300 ways,

00:40:05.960 Jocki is a 0.94

00:40:06.620 Nazi-fied

00:40:07.200 Spengler

00:40:07.760 because Spengler

00:40:09.920 would never

00:40:10.380 take that,

00:40:11.400 it was never

00:40:11.960 a whole hogger

00:40:12.760 as far as

00:40:13.800 they were

00:40:14.080 concerned,

00:40:14.960 and actually

00:40:15.520 had a

00:40:15.880 different viewpoint.

00:40:17.560 That's why

00:40:18.160 Jocki's book

00:40:19.000 tends to be

00:40:19.660 two books

00:40:20.120 in one.

00:40:21.380 80% of it

00:40:22.460 is a

00:40:22.760 Spenglerian 0.94

00:40:23.640 exercise,

00:40:24.840 and then

00:40:25.960 at the

00:40:26.220 end,

00:40:26.640 the 20%, 0.73

00:40:27.480 when he

00:40:27.800 basically

00:40:28.200 adopts

00:40:28.700 a sort

00:40:29.000 of

00:40:29.160 Fourth

00:40:30.680 Reich,

00:40:31.480 Third

00:40:31.820 Reich

00:40:32.160 viewpoint,

00:40:33.720 which is

00:40:34.200 he's

00:40:34.320 going

00:40:34.600 grafting

00:40:35.180 onto

00:40:35.520 the

00:40:35.780 Spenglerian 0.94

00:40:36.580 architecture

00:40:37.320 of a

00:40:38.440 sort

00:40:38.660 of

00:40:38.860 neo-National

00:40:39.540 Socialist

00:40:40.320 Declaration

00:40:41.540 of London

00:40:42.220 opinion

00:40:43.960 or

00:40:44.480 editorial.

00:40:45.720 One

00:40:46.060 question

00:40:46.460 that was

00:40:46.880 coming to

00:40:47.360 my mind

00:40:47.940 was,

00:40:49.220 we were

00:40:50.080 witnessing,

00:40:51.400 experiencing

00:40:52.040 the winter

00:40:53.360 of Faustian

00:40:54.460 Western

00:40:54.820 culture.

00:40:56.020 Do you

00:40:56.580 think that

00:40:57.080 if there

00:40:57.400 were a

00:40:58.380 rebirth

00:40:58.900 amongst

00:41:00.140 European

00:41:01.620 peoples,

00:41:03.180 that it

00:41:03.960 would be

00:41:04.380 something

00:41:04.700 different

00:41:05.200 than

00:41:05.440 Faustian

00:41:05.860 culture?

00:41:06.360 I mean,

00:41:06.720 would it

00:41:08.100 be a

00:41:08.340 kind of

00:41:08.680 revival

00:41:09.280 of the

00:41:10.940 West

00:41:11.340 as we've

00:41:12.580 known it?

00:41:13.360 Or would

00:41:14.120 there actually

00:41:14.600 be a

00:41:15.320 different

00:41:15.940 paradigm

00:41:16.480 that would

00:41:17.820 be adopted

00:41:18.540 by European

00:41:19.980 peoples?

00:41:22.080 Well,

00:41:22.260 that's very

00:41:22.660 broad.

00:41:23.360 I personally

00:41:24.040 think that

00:41:24.320 that if

00:41:24.580 there was

00:41:24.860 to be

00:41:25.100 a revival,

00:41:26.460 it probably

00:41:27.180 has to be

00:41:27.720 more classical

00:41:28.380 than anything

00:41:28.880 else,

00:41:30.660 and has to

00:41:31.160 be a sort

00:41:31.660 of a

00:41:32.060 classicism,

00:41:33.300 and has to

00:41:33.840 be a return

00:41:34.500 to the

00:41:35.060 verities of

00:41:36.120 the

00:41:37.600 Greco-Ramon

00:41:38.520 world as

00:41:40.200 at least a

00:41:41.300 cultural basis

00:41:42.080 and a starting

00:41:42.720 point of

00:41:43.200 thinking,

00:41:44.300 because that

00:41:44.780 provides you

00:41:45.520 with a

00:41:47.260 pre-Christian 0.90

00:41:47.880 as well as a

00:41:48.480 post-Christian 0.98

00:41:49.080 dynamic.

00:41:49.600 it's

00:41:50.820 rational.

00:41:52.660 All of

00:41:53.380 Western

00:41:54.120 high culture

00:41:55.040 bears the

00:41:56.780 Hellenic 0.98

00:41:57.380 stamp upon

00:41:58.100 it,

00:41:59.280 filtered

00:41:59.540 through

00:41:59.880 Rome,

00:42:00.400 and Romans

00:42:01.000 hold the

00:42:01.920 empire,

00:42:02.920 Christianized,

00:42:04.040 and Germanicized

00:42:04.860 that came

00:42:05.320 after it.

00:42:05.980 and in

00:42:09.000 some ways

00:42:09.760 it's a

00:42:10.960 common

00:42:11.220 appeal to

00:42:12.860 the inner

00:42:13.460 tensions in

00:42:14.380 Western

00:42:14.760 man that

00:42:15.960 can be

00:42:16.280 resolved

00:42:16.780 classically.

00:42:18.460 So that's

00:42:18.900 the inner

00:42:19.420 regions for

00:42:20.100 Greece,

00:42:20.560 of course,

00:42:21.140 the

00:42:21.300 Benoit

00:42:21.700 outfit,

00:42:23.080 calling

00:42:23.380 itself

00:42:23.900 the

00:42:24.160 group

00:42:24.340 to

00:42:24.500 research

00:42:25.020 into

00:42:25.880 the

00:42:26.060 origins

00:42:26.440 of

00:42:26.640 European

00:42:27.100 civilization

00:42:28.500 and culture.

00:42:30.300 They want

00:42:30.740 to go

00:42:30.980 back to

00:42:31.420 Greece

00:42:31.840 with

00:42:33.220 modern

00:42:33.520 technology

00:42:34.140 and with

00:42:35.480 the

00:42:35.760 hallmark

00:42:36.500 of the

00:42:36.780 New

00:42:36.960 West.

00:42:38.180 And they

00:42:38.540 want a

00:42:38.860 new

00:42:39.120 right

00:42:39.400 rather than

00:42:39.840 an old

00:42:40.200 right to

00:42:41.100 carry that

00:42:41.560 project

00:42:41.900 forward.

00:42:43.940 Even though

00:42:44.660 at least

00:42:45.060 five currents

00:42:46.020 of the

00:42:46.320 New

00:42:46.520 Right now

00:42:47.060 are separated

00:42:47.660 out even

00:42:48.140 from the

00:42:48.500 Benoit.

00:42:50.580 That's

00:42:51.060 certainly

00:42:51.320 true.

00:42:52.320 Well,

00:42:52.840 Jonathan,

00:42:53.260 this has

00:42:53.560 been a

00:42:53.920 fascinating

00:42:54.400 discussion,

00:42:55.420 and I'm

00:42:56.000 just going

00:42:56.220 to put

00:42:56.600 a bookmark

00:42:57.900 in it

00:42:58.240 because I

00:42:58.740 think we

00:42:59.080 could return

00:42:59.800 to

00:43:00.220 Spengler

00:43:00.760 later on,

00:43:01.660 as with

00:43:03.340 so many

00:43:03.840 of our

00:43:04.080 podcasts,

00:43:04.700 we only

00:43:04.980 scratched the

00:43:06.440 surface on

00:43:06.960 these ideas,

00:43:08.000 and I speak

00:43:09.700 for a lot

00:43:10.100 of the

00:43:10.280 listeners,

00:43:10.800 waiting for

00:43:12.800 more,

00:43:13.520 so we

00:43:13.880 should do

00:43:14.140 it again.

00:43:14.960 Thanks for

00:43:15.540 being on

00:43:16.020 the show

00:43:16.460 again and

00:43:17.260 speaking with

00:43:17.880 us about

00:43:18.240 Spengler,

00:43:18.860 and we'll

00:43:19.360 talk to you

00:43:19.780 soon.

00:43:20.840 Thank you

00:43:21.360 very much.

00:43:21.740 We'll be

00:43:22.000 back.

00:43:33.840 Spengler,

00:43:49.720 spengler.

RadixJournal - January 04, 2018

Bowden! - 12 - Understanding Spengler

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