RadixJournal - January 02, 2018


Bowden! - 14 - The E Word


Episode Stats


Length

51 minutes

Words per minute

137.06996

Word count

7,048

Sentence count

133

Harmful content

Misogyny

8

sentences flagged

Toxicity

32

sentences flagged

Hate speech

32

sentences flagged


Summary

Summaries generated with gmurro/bart-large-finetuned-filtered-spotify-podcast-summ .

Eugenics, Madison Grant, Lothrop Stoddard, and the whole constellation of ideas and thinkers surrounding that subject. Richard and Jonathan discuss the history of Eugenics, and why it has been dismissed as a pseudoscience.

Transcript

Transcript generated with Whisper (turbo).
Misogyny classifications generated with MilaNLProc/bert-base-uncased-ear-misogyny .
Toxicity classifications generated with s-nlp/roberta_toxicity_classifier .
Hate speech classifications generated with facebook/roberta-hate-speech-dynabench-r4-target .
00:00:00.000 Welcome to Vanguard, a podcast of radical traditionalism.
00:00:24.580 Here's your host, Richard Spencer.
00:00:27.380 Hello, everyone, and welcome back to Vanguard, and welcome back as well, Jonathan Bowden.
00:00:33.380 Yes, hello. Nice to be here.
00:00:35.640 Very good. Jonathan, today we're going to talk about eugenics, Madison Grant, Lothrop Stoddard,
00:00:43.780 and the whole constellation of ideas and thinkers surrounding that subject.
00:00:51.080 And before we jump into the conversation, I think it's worth mentioning this.
00:00:57.960 We certainly live in an age of partisan vitriol and left-right battles,
00:01:05.040 but some of the things that really interest me are not those places where the left and the mainstream left and right disagree with one another,
00:01:14.080 but where they are in total agreement, where they walk lockstep.
00:01:18.880 And one of those things is the denunciation of eugenics as the most evil movement, or at least one of them, of the past 200 years.
00:01:35.580 And it's certainly also quite often associated with that other most evil movement of fascism or national socialism.
00:01:46.440 And that it's both, I think all of them are in agreement that it is both a pseudoscience,
00:01:51.780 but then it's also in some ways all too effective and something we need to resist.
00:01:57.040 So it didn't work, but then it was all too effective at the same time, usually in some of these irrational critiques they have of it.
00:02:06.560 And, you know, this is a fascinating opinion because this is something that has changed dramatically over the past century.
00:02:17.600 It's hard to find another opinion where you have a 180-degree shift in such a fairly short amount of time.
00:02:28.460 It's almost as if the Western world converted to Islam and began denouncing Christianity and secularism overnight. 0.74
00:02:37.500 Perhaps not that dramatic, but you see my point.
00:02:40.400 Certainly something like the National Socialist Regime in Germany did have eugenics programs.
00:02:47.680 They were not actually as pronounced as some might believe.
00:02:50.940 They actually modeled a lot of those programs on the eugenics programs found in Sweden and in the state of California.
00:02:57.740 California is probably the ultimate model.
00:03:00.940 You had eugenics being endorsed by university presidents.
00:03:05.820 That is, it was very much part of the elite.
00:03:07.920 They thought this was a good thing.
00:03:10.740 And it was also part of the progressive elite.
00:03:13.240 Eugenics was not a reactionary opinion.
00:03:15.740 It was something that was opposed by the, say, old-time religion folks or whom you might call reactionaries.
00:03:25.080 It was something that might even be on the left in certain contexts.
00:03:30.060 Certainly with someone like Lothrop Stoddard, whom we're going to speak about a little bit later,
00:03:34.520 it was a position held by someone who openly thought of himself as a progressive and as a modernist.
00:03:42.240 And it also had some popular appeal.
00:03:45.880 Actually, in a talk I gave not too long ago at the H.L. Mencken Club, I showed some pictures.
00:03:53.120 They were actually taken by a very good book, a biography of Lothrop Stoddard,
00:03:56.780 which is written by a left liberal who doesn't like Stoddard very much but recognizes his importance.
00:04:03.860 But these pictures were of eugenics buildings at the State Fair.
00:04:08.900 And I believe the one, a famous one, is from the Kansas State Fair.
00:04:12.520 And they would have competition for the fittest family.
00:04:15.320 And what they wanted to see was a good genotype, that is a healthy family with all boys and girls looking strong and smart
00:04:23.880 and good-looking parents and things like this.
00:04:27.560 So eugenics really had a positive value in people's lives. 0.99
00:04:33.240 It was something that meant that they were healthy and good and normal and people of quality.
00:04:39.980 And obviously this has gone through a total reversal.
00:04:44.000 Well, Jonathan, just to kind of, I think we should talk more about all these things in detail.
00:04:50.840 But maybe you could pick up on that basic history of eugenics that I've just outlined.
00:04:59.380 That something that was hegemonic has become unspeakable just over the course of 100 years. 0.78
00:05:06.980 Something that was endorsed by presidents and now is associated with crazed lunatics.
00:05:12.360 Maybe just talk a little bit about that and talk maybe a little bit about why that happened.
00:05:19.080 Do you think it was just the legacy of the Second World War or was there something more involved?
00:05:25.920 So why don't you just pick up on that, this, let's say, our consciousness of eugenics in the 20th century.
00:05:32.440 Yes, I think what we have here is the acceptance of and then the rejection of one and the other.
00:05:40.560 The notion that biology impinges upon social matters to a very considerable degree.
00:05:46.300 From about sort of 1860, 1870 through to the 1940s, you had a very pronounced view in all sorts of countries,
00:05:53.860 particularly countries like Australia, Canada, New Zealand, Sweden, Denmark, Switzerland, and elsewhere.
00:06:01.260 Countries that you don't often associate with these sorts of ideas.
00:06:04.760 But eugenics ideas were very pronounced in the politics in these societies and amongst academic and clinical elites.
00:06:11.320 It was essentially, in some ways, a progressive biologism.
00:06:17.060 It was the belief that you could actually act upon man and upon the circumstances of lived anthropology,
00:06:22.360 as contemporaneously understood, and you could improve the human lot,
00:06:27.140 just as you could act on the social and economic sphere from a center-left perspective to improve mankind's lot.
00:06:33.460 You could actually, and from an interventionist conservative perspective as well,
00:06:38.060 you could also improve man's lot biologically.
00:06:41.560 How this was to be done was the subject for, you know, sort of maximal debate.
00:06:46.680 But the idea that if you bred the strongest children and the tallest children and the fairest children
00:06:53.220 and the most intellectually precocious children, who also had pronounced athletic abilities,
00:06:59.880 that you would actually begin to create more wholesome human beings,
00:07:05.160 better families, and better communities, and better societies,
00:07:09.480 that sort of viewpoint would have been regarded as athletic in the mid-1930s.
00:07:18.420 And it would have been shared by left-wing liberals, some socialists,
00:07:23.960 many sort of active and latte-faire libertarians and old liberals,
00:07:32.660 many new liberals, many conservatives of all sorts.
00:07:36.360 The only people who would really oppose it were people who were very much linked
00:07:40.960 to certain forms of biblical Christianity,
00:07:43.860 because, of course, these ideas are inevitably linked to notions of biological health
00:07:49.700 and reproduction, what would later be cast by feminism, 1.00
00:07:53.760 later in the century, second-wave feminism, as reproductive rights, 1.00
00:07:58.220 but then was looked at as reproduction for health and for eugenic health at that. 0.90
00:08:04.420 And this meant that contraception and abortion, 0.97
00:08:08.340 abortion as a form of contraception, particularly in relation to life,
00:08:11.980 which was considered in some respects unworthy or inferior in one category or another,
00:08:18.180 would definitely come into play.
00:08:20.740 And Christian moral concerns about that aspect of eugenics was very pronounced.
00:08:26.560 However, probably a large number of evangelicals shared semi-eugenic ideas,
00:08:33.120 because racial and national ideas were so much more conservative during this epoch
00:08:38.700 and were so much more hegemonic,
00:08:41.900 that it meant that the amount of opposition that eugenics got was relatively small
00:08:47.140 in comparison to the almost universal odium in which it's held at the present time.
00:08:54.160 Let me jump in on that, actually.
00:08:57.000 You know, one of the groups that loathes eugenics at the moment is the evangelical Christians,
00:09:03.580 but it's worth mentioning that there were eugenic laws in the state of North Carolina,
00:09:09.360 for instance, up until the 1970s.
00:09:12.820 And the state sterilized a tremendous amount of people, most of them black,
00:09:19.140 you know, which it considered unfit for bearing children. 0.61
00:09:24.800 So there was a kind of old-time religious, you know, repulsion from eugenics as modernists,
00:09:32.520 and that kind of makes sense.
00:09:33.600 But just to back up your point, it was something that was accepted
00:09:39.040 by the large majority of Protestants in the South.
00:09:45.420 Yes, the sterilization of the unfit, which was carried out outright across the Western world,
00:09:50.960 until a particular generation of natural scientists died out
00:09:54.980 in the terms of the social application of biological ideas in the 1970s.
00:10:00.840 Really, what you have is you have a generation that accepts these ideas
00:10:06.440 in the 30s and 40s when they are young
00:10:10.600 and carries them out in orphanages and halfway houses
00:10:15.260 and children's homes and clinics for the elderly and the infirm
00:10:22.800 and mental hospitals and way stations for the mentally subnormal 0.73
00:10:28.460 and so on and so forth,
00:10:31.480 and carries these functions out right across the 50s, 60s, and into the 70s.
00:10:37.120 And that generation then dies out, 0.98
00:10:40.000 and the scientists who follow them don't have the same ideas
00:10:43.480 because they've been exposed to a different and a contrary mindset
00:10:47.040 from 1945-46 onwards.
00:10:50.660 So you have a reversal of what went on,
00:10:55.060 and at times an unstated reversal,
00:10:57.420 whereby the policies just change,
00:10:59.860 and sterilization of people with grossly deformed and inadequate IQs, for example, 1.00
00:11:07.260 to prevent them from breeding people who might be described as idiots. 1.00
00:11:13.480 In future sort of percussive generations, 0.99
00:11:17.040 that came to an end in most Western countries around the same time in the mid-1970s.
00:11:24.340 And I think it came to an end because generationally,
00:11:27.360 the scientists who'd imbibed eugenic ideas
00:11:30.580 had essentially passed through the system and were retiring
00:11:34.440 and being replaced by a cohort that didn't share the same notions.
00:11:38.380 I also think it's important to realize that essentially what's happened
00:11:42.360 is that two concepts have been conflated into one another
00:11:45.580 in order to summarily dispatch both.
00:11:49.040 And this is the idea of eugenics as against dysgenics. 0.84
00:11:53.380 And dysgenics, which is, if you like, the negative side of eugenics, 0.81
00:11:58.440 whereby you act so as to prevent harm,
00:12:00.800 but you also act to, in some senses, prevent life through abortion
00:12:07.940 or through selective contraceptive use or through sterilization,
00:12:12.740 the proactive and yet sort of SNP-oriented and negative side of eugenics
00:12:19.080 is its really controversial feature.
00:12:21.040 Sure.
00:12:21.360 The wholesome side, the building people up,
00:12:25.280 the tonics for the brave sort of side
00:12:28.960 is one which only the most niggardly and sort of nihilistic 0.99
00:12:34.620 and sordid left-winger would be opposed to
00:12:37.380 because they find nauseous the idea of happy, athletic,
00:12:42.640 intellectually precocious families beaming for the camera
00:12:45.780 in an Osmonds-like way.
00:12:47.540 You know, it fills women with nausea and disgust. 1.00
00:12:49.980 But the number of people who are filled with nausea and disgust
00:12:53.220 for such sort of pangent healthy normality
00:12:56.160 are relatively few and far between. 0.80
00:12:59.080 And many of them are neurotic
00:13:00.300 and sort of outsider-in in their orientation.
00:13:05.820 So that sort of eugenics has been deconstructed
00:13:11.280 so that the term eugenics is no longer used
00:13:13.600 and it's just a symbol of healthiness.
00:13:17.020 Although there are radical Christians 0.71
00:13:19.060 of a certain specialization,
00:13:21.820 dislike even that.
00:13:23.400 I remember a Christian woman of my acquaintance
00:13:25.440 a long time ago, a theorist in Christianity,
00:13:28.880 Catholic variants of which have seen,
00:13:32.440 expected to me at great length
00:13:34.880 about how she was appalled by pictures of athletes
00:13:37.480 in hospital wards for the sick.
00:13:40.080 She said it's monstrously eugenic having these pictures
00:13:43.720 of these healthy goddess and god-type individuals,
00:13:48.060 reminding everyone who's palsied and lame and sick 1.00
00:13:51.760 and broken down what they're not.
00:13:55.160 And it's essentially a form of conceptually beating them
00:13:57.540 over the head with a trunction 0.56
00:13:58.840 as they're trying to get a little bit better
00:14:03.020 in their own terms.
00:14:04.060 And these were just pictures of health.
00:14:06.380 So it shows you how far the sort of negative reaction
00:14:11.520 to even the idea of healthiness as a presumed good
00:14:15.400 has worked in this society.
00:14:18.800 Illness is dealt with as a sort of something
00:14:22.640 to be alleviated.
00:14:24.420 But the corollary that you actually obtain health
00:14:27.500 when you're not ill
00:14:28.440 is something which has been rather left out of the equation.
00:14:31.520 Doctors who too radically value health
00:14:34.380 fall under a certain cloud
00:14:36.540 and under a certain moral suspicion these days
00:14:39.440 that their viewpoint tends in a sort of semi-eugenic direction.
00:14:44.120 So certainly there's been an incredible reversal.
00:14:47.420 But when most people say eugenics,
00:14:49.240 the thing that they're really talking about
00:14:50.680 is the negative side of eugenics,
00:14:52.880 the sort of parsimonious,
00:14:56.380 sort of quote-unquote getting rid of the inferior
00:15:00.660 dimension to it,
00:15:03.580 is what people really get riled against.
00:15:06.680 The more positive agenda
00:15:07.980 would probably have a sullen acquiescence
00:15:09.940 on behalf of most people
00:15:11.940 who are not sold on the idea
00:15:13.540 that healthiness is not necessarily
00:15:18.000 just next to godliness,
00:15:19.280 but two steps away from fascism.
00:15:20.980 Right.
00:15:21.760 And actually, it's worth pointing out
00:15:23.680 that many of the elite are pursuing eugenics.
00:15:28.140 I mean, they call it genetic therapy
00:15:30.320 or genetic counseling is another word.
00:15:34.360 And there are, you know,
00:15:35.620 I don't want to dwell on these things,
00:15:36.900 but they are in some ways pursuing negative eugenics
00:15:40.620 in the sense that they are certainly
00:15:43.180 much more willing to abort a child
00:15:46.920 with Down syndrome or so on.
00:15:49.500 And that, of course, can be discovered
00:15:51.860 in the womb.
00:15:53.940 And so, in some ways,
00:15:55.700 one could also suggest
00:15:57.240 that eugenics is still living on. 0.83
00:16:00.060 It's just you can't,
00:16:00.820 you simply can't use that name
00:16:02.560 because when you use that,
00:16:04.260 you know,
00:16:04.760 a swastika flag begins waving
00:16:07.720 in someone's mind.
00:16:08.680 I mean, it just seems like that,
00:16:09.780 you know, that is what it is.
00:16:11.300 But the actual practice seems to go on.
00:16:15.480 Of course, I mean,
00:16:16.320 it's worth pointing out,
00:16:17.300 I guess I want to talk a little bit.
00:16:19.760 I want to return actually
00:16:20.800 to your mentioning
00:16:22.460 of the academic side of this.
00:16:23.960 But before pointing out,
00:16:25.960 it's, I think I mentioned this
00:16:27.860 at the beginning of the program,
00:16:29.340 but Nazi Germany
00:16:31.760 did have certain eugenics programs.
00:16:33.820 They were not as unusual
00:16:36.120 as many people would have you believe.
00:16:39.180 And they weren't actually as pronounced
00:16:40.480 as someone would have you believe.
00:16:42.640 In some ways, they were rather
00:16:45.400 humdrum eugenics programs 0.87
00:16:47.100 when compared to
00:16:48.980 what was going on internationally.
00:16:51.320 And the, you know,
00:16:53.220 Hitler's attacks on, say,
00:16:54.960 the Jewish people
00:16:56.100 and what's come to be known
00:16:58.880 as the Holocaust,
00:17:00.020 that was obviously not
00:17:01.100 a eugenic program.
00:17:02.800 I mean, Hitler obviously was, 0.78
00:17:06.760 had very strong negative feelings
00:17:10.240 against the Jews,
00:17:10.980 and he thought that they were 0.95
00:17:12.060 a very dangerous enemy,
00:17:14.020 but he did not think 1.00
00:17:15.080 that they were stupid morons 1.00
00:17:17.360 or something. 1.00
00:17:17.940 It was just, you know,
00:17:18.940 again, when you conflate eugenics
00:17:21.220 and the Holocaust
00:17:22.800 or all of the, you know,
00:17:24.940 use of concentration camps
00:17:26.140 and so on and so forth
00:17:26.860 in the Second World War,
00:17:27.720 you're really mixing apples and oranges.
00:17:29.780 They're just not the same thing.
00:17:32.240 But again, that is the perception
00:17:33.880 and that is one,
00:17:34.720 that is the central reason
00:17:35.760 why eugenics is a kind of non-starter
00:17:39.360 in our contemporary world
00:17:41.240 or it kind of has a sub-rosa existence
00:17:44.060 or something like that.
00:17:45.500 Let me just ask you
00:17:47.080 a real quick question
00:17:47.900 because you were talking
00:17:48.440 about the academic side
00:17:49.740 of this issue
00:17:50.520 and the fact that
00:17:52.100 so many of these researchers
00:17:54.500 who were quite predisposed
00:17:57.880 to Galton, Darwinism,
00:18:01.660 eugenics, that that switched. 0.92
00:18:03.520 Is that part of the so-called
00:18:06.020 Boasian revolution
00:18:08.220 in anthropology?
00:18:10.020 And what I mean by that
00:18:10.840 is, of course, Franz Boas,
00:18:12.700 he was a sworn enemy
00:18:17.020 of Madison Grand.
00:18:18.100 In many ways,
00:18:18.980 this is actually one of the things
00:18:20.180 that some of us have forgotten
00:18:23.060 is that when Franz was talking,
00:18:26.180 when Boas, excuse me, 0.51
00:18:27.080 was talking about
00:18:28.140 things like, you know,
00:18:31.060 immigrants' head,
00:18:32.600 there's no correlation
00:18:34.240 or connection
00:18:35.240 between head shape
00:18:36.540 or head size
00:18:37.560 and brain size
00:18:38.260 and intelligence.
00:18:39.300 He would even say things
00:18:40.800 that are obviously false
00:18:42.220 in which he actually
00:18:43.120 literally fabricated his data
00:18:45.220 claiming that
00:18:45.940 an immigrant's head 1.00
00:18:47.540 would change shape
00:18:48.680 when it came to America.
00:18:50.440 You know,
00:18:50.920 it's almost this assimilation
00:18:52.460 or the melting pot
00:18:54.140 would change
00:18:54.900 the physics
00:18:57.220 kind of thing.
00:18:58.560 It's a totally
00:18:59.600 nonsensical notion.
00:19:01.360 But he was,
00:19:02.060 all of those
00:19:02.960 papers that he wrote
00:19:05.520 were all directed
00:19:07.180 against Grant
00:19:08.460 and eugenics.
00:19:09.300 That was the target.
00:19:10.560 And sometimes
00:19:10.960 that's forgotten
00:19:11.760 because Boas' 0.56
00:19:13.780 revolution
00:19:14.360 in anthropology
00:19:15.780 and genetics
00:19:16.320 has been so
00:19:17.380 profound
00:19:19.560 and broad
00:19:20.500 that you forget
00:19:21.640 that he was actually
00:19:22.380 reacting against
00:19:23.540 another force
00:19:24.200 and that was Grant
00:19:25.180 and eugenics
00:19:25.820 who again
00:19:27.180 were a hegemonic.
00:19:28.600 But Jonathan,
00:19:29.080 do you think,
00:19:29.500 is that what you were
00:19:30.180 getting to
00:19:30.700 when you were talking
00:19:31.240 about before
00:19:31.700 about the academic
00:19:32.700 shift amongst
00:19:34.060 researchers
00:19:34.720 that in some ways
00:19:36.800 when you had
00:19:37.780 baby boomers 0.93
00:19:38.720 and our generation
00:19:40.920 you essentially
00:19:42.980 were having people
00:19:43.680 who were influenced
00:19:45.000 by Boasian
00:19:45.860 anthropology
00:19:46.580 they did not
00:19:48.360 think in terms
00:19:49.380 of Galton
00:19:51.060 and say
00:19:51.520 let's call it
00:19:52.320 classical Darwinism
00:19:53.600 and that really
00:19:55.140 it's kind of
00:19:55.860 those people
00:19:57.200 where they lost
00:19:59.440 the battle
00:20:00.180 and this is the reason
00:20:02.240 why eugenics 0.99
00:20:03.440 kind of vanished
00:20:04.380 after the Second World War.
00:20:07.080 Yes.
00:20:08.200 I do think
00:20:09.160 it happened
00:20:09.520 in a certain context
00:20:10.620 though.
00:20:11.200 I think people
00:20:12.400 who supported eugenics 0.89
00:20:13.980 found that
00:20:14.480 unless they found
00:20:15.160 a different vocabulary
00:20:16.140 for it
00:20:16.780 their support
00:20:17.860 couldn't be
00:20:18.680 sustained
00:20:19.700 in polite society.
00:20:21.740 Therefore
00:20:22.220 they either found
00:20:24.500 arcane
00:20:25.120 in differentiated
00:20:26.100 terminology
00:20:26.840 or
00:20:28.600 they gave up
00:20:29.740 on it completely
00:20:30.540 and when you have
00:20:31.820 an idea
00:20:32.300 that time has come
00:20:33.820 a vanguard
00:20:34.720 will push
00:20:35.340 for a contrary system
00:20:36.440 and if there's nothing
00:20:37.720 to push back
00:20:38.420 against them
00:20:39.160 they will take
00:20:40.060 the high ground
00:20:40.820 and they will take over
00:20:41.960 the theoretical discourse
00:20:43.560 of the society
00:20:44.380 and you need
00:20:45.320 a very small number
00:20:46.060 of people
00:20:46.500 to be singing
00:20:47.400 from the same hymn sheet
00:20:48.540 in order to affect that.
00:20:50.360 So you just need
00:20:51.420 the anthropology societies
00:20:52.800 and the anthropological journals
00:20:54.500 and the anthropology academic
00:20:56.360 departments
00:20:56.940 of the United States
00:20:58.240 to tack one way
00:20:59.800 or to lopsidedly
00:21:01.440 to tack one way
00:21:02.700 decisively
00:21:03.400 for there to be
00:21:04.560 a complete re-routing
00:21:05.740 and for
00:21:07.200 one set of theories
00:21:08.540 to be replaced
00:21:09.380 by another one.
00:21:10.280 but it only happened
00:21:11.680 because the soil
00:21:13.080 was so fertile
00:21:14.020 because the other discourse
00:21:16.040 had drained away
00:21:16.920 to nothingness
00:21:17.720 and even those
00:21:18.700 who were in favour
00:21:19.500 of it
00:21:19.980 found themselves
00:21:21.140 unable to articulate it
00:21:22.800 given the moral climate
00:21:24.660 post-1945.
00:21:26.220 So
00:21:27.620 Boaz and his friends
00:21:30.000 seized the hour
00:21:30.920 basically
00:21:31.480 and introduced
00:21:33.340 forms of social discourse
00:21:35.860 because that's what it was
00:21:37.100 which explained everything
00:21:38.560 in terms of the social
00:21:39.660 ramifications of man
00:21:40.960 and this very much
00:21:42.340 of course
00:21:42.720 fed in indirectly
00:21:43.820 to the new left
00:21:45.200 of the 1960s
00:21:46.380 and 70s
00:21:47.160 which is
00:21:48.260 quite a break
00:21:49.540 from the old left
00:21:50.480 in many ways
00:21:51.280 which would accept
00:21:52.560 quite a lot of prior
00:21:53.640 and inheritable characteristics
00:21:55.240 even biological ones
00:21:57.260 Marx and so on
00:21:59.200 never thought
00:21:59.720 that man could be changed
00:22:00.720 biologically
00:22:01.340 at his primary nature
00:22:02.720 the only change
00:22:03.760 that could be brought about
00:22:04.620 was socio-economic
00:22:05.580 which could be decisive
00:22:07.880 but was rudimentary
00:22:09.880 in relation to man's
00:22:10.780 fundamental being
00:22:11.860 and Lenin as well
00:22:13.180 never thought
00:22:13.740 that man was capable
00:22:14.760 of change
00:22:15.320 at the biological level
00:22:16.480 some people 1.00
00:22:17.380 would always be born stupid 1.00
00:22:18.700 others would be born brilliant 1.00
00:22:20.160 some could approximate
00:22:22.320 to one or the other
00:22:23.520 by dint of some application
00:22:26.060 or its absence
00:22:26.940 people would be born sick
00:22:28.640 or rattled with disease
00:22:29.980 people would be born healthy
00:22:32.100 people would be born 0.69
00:22:33.740 with mental diseases
00:22:34.700 and disabilities
00:22:35.540 and
00:22:36.820 with the exception
00:22:38.700 of socialised medical concern
00:22:40.660 there was not too much
00:22:41.860 that could be done
00:22:42.380 about that
00:22:43.080 whereas the new left
00:22:44.420 believe that everyone
00:22:45.540 is a tabula rasa
00:22:46.660 and that everyone
00:22:48.600 can make it up
00:22:49.620 as they go along
00:22:50.540 and that although
00:22:51.620 there are certain things
00:22:52.840 which of course
00:22:53.500 impinge
00:22:54.260 such as extreme illness
00:22:56.140 and that sort of thing
00:22:57.180 from the biological realm
00:22:58.840 that's restricted
00:22:59.860 very much just
00:23:00.700 to the narrow issue
00:23:01.640 of personal health
00:23:02.680 other than that
00:23:04.120 every issue
00:23:05.300 is explicable
00:23:06.840 in terms of
00:23:08.060 social engineering
00:23:09.040 and purely
00:23:10.580 social engineering
00:23:11.640 but not
00:23:12.680 socio-biological
00:23:13.680 engineering
00:23:14.380 that was
00:23:15.340 rendered
00:23:16.040 out of
00:23:16.600 account
00:23:17.500 so progressivism
00:23:19.300 snips off
00:23:20.180 that element
00:23:21.180 of it
00:23:21.480 that was biological
00:23:22.340 in the past
00:23:23.260 and that's why
00:23:24.260 eugenics 0.78
00:23:24.720 were gotten rid of
00:23:25.660 yes
00:23:26.580 and I want to
00:23:28.160 return
00:23:28.740 to this
00:23:30.260 theme
00:23:30.820 that I was talking
00:23:31.340 about before
00:23:31.940 in terms of
00:23:32.720 Grant
00:23:33.100 and this
00:23:34.980 former
00:23:36.100 hegemonic discourse
00:23:37.320 and I think
00:23:38.200 it's worth
00:23:38.800 pointing out
00:23:40.200 a little bit
00:23:41.120 about
00:23:41.620 Madison Grant
00:23:43.580 the man
00:23:44.520 because I think
00:23:46.140 if you really
00:23:46.580 look at his story
00:23:47.900 you see
00:23:49.020 in a nutshell
00:23:51.340 as it were
00:23:52.860 the story
00:23:53.560 of the
00:23:54.020 dispossession
00:23:54.960 of the
00:23:55.780 wasp elite
00:23:56.800 over the course
00:23:58.500 of the 20th century
00:23:59.460 and
00:24:00.240 Grant was actually
00:24:02.260 he was a
00:24:02.980 a lawyer
00:24:04.260 by training
00:24:05.140 but he never
00:24:05.760 really practiced
00:24:06.960 he was
00:24:07.480 I guess he was
00:24:07.980 very similar
00:24:08.480 to Lothrop Stoddard
00:24:09.680 and to that degree
00:24:10.700 he also had a law degree
00:24:11.640 and also had a PhD
00:24:12.460 Stoddard did
00:24:13.260 but he
00:24:15.180 he was
00:24:16.380 immediately fascinated
00:24:17.220 by naturalism
00:24:18.320 and
00:24:18.920 he was actually
00:24:19.820 involved with people
00:24:20.880 like Theodore Roosevelt
00:24:22.240 and the
00:24:22.980 big game hunter
00:24:24.420 the Boone and Crockett
00:24:25.680 club
00:24:26.220 he was really
00:24:27.360 pioneering the whole
00:24:28.380 concept of
00:24:29.500 wildlife management
00:24:31.060 and conservation
00:24:31.820 he
00:24:33.060 was part of
00:24:34.400 the co-founder
00:24:34.960 of the Bronx Zoo
00:24:36.020 in 1899
00:24:37.640 I guess in his
00:24:38.360 native New York
00:24:39.240 they would actually
00:24:39.740 bring bison
00:24:40.500 into
00:24:40.980 New York City
00:24:42.700 things like this
00:24:43.880 he was
00:24:44.720 involved with
00:24:45.380 the American
00:24:45.700 Bison Society
00:24:46.720 there was actually
00:24:47.360 a
00:24:47.700 you know
00:24:50.020 there was some
00:24:51.060 statistics
00:24:51.920 that
00:24:52.560 before the society
00:24:54.320 got going
00:24:55.200 and the
00:24:55.680 bison were being
00:24:57.080 conserved
00:24:57.760 that there were
00:24:58.900 I can't remember
00:24:59.580 the exact statistic
00:25:00.320 but it was something
00:25:00.920 like less than
00:25:01.880 20 bison
00:25:02.940 were remaining
00:25:03.740 essentially
00:25:04.280 the
00:25:05.160 the bison
00:25:06.180 was obviously
00:25:07.260 a majestic
00:25:07.840 creature
00:25:08.300 but when it
00:25:09.060 entered the
00:25:09.880 world of
00:25:10.600 rifles
00:25:11.960 and you know
00:25:13.000 horseback
00:25:14.020 horse riding
00:25:15.800 men with
00:25:16.320 guns
00:25:17.000 it was a
00:25:18.120 big
00:25:18.440 you know
00:25:19.400 slab of
00:25:20.180 meat
00:25:20.560 as a target
00:25:21.340 and it was
00:25:21.900 being slaughtered
00:25:23.560 he 1.00
00:25:24.200 we might
00:25:25.280 we might
00:25:26.120 very well
00:25:26.580 not have
00:25:27.500 the bison
00:25:28.160 the American
00:25:28.680 buffalo
00:25:29.120 without someone
00:25:29.820 like Madison
00:25:30.300 Grant
00:25:30.620 he was part of
00:25:31.460 the co-founders
00:25:32.360 of Glacier
00:25:33.320 National Park
00:25:34.240 which I
00:25:35.940 am quite
00:25:36.400 lucky to
00:25:37.060 live about
00:25:37.680 a 45
00:25:39.000 minute drive
00:25:39.720 away from
00:25:40.360 but it
00:25:41.680 might be
00:25:42.460 second only
00:25:43.120 to Yellowstone
00:25:43.840 National Park
00:25:45.020 but maybe
00:25:46.760 even some
00:25:47.220 might rank
00:25:47.700 it higher
00:25:48.080 but it's
00:25:48.380 a truly
00:25:48.880 gorgeous
00:25:50.580 part of
00:25:52.340 the world
00:25:52.860 that includes
00:25:53.680 all sorts
00:25:55.500 of things
00:25:55.920 from mountain
00:25:56.400 peaks
00:25:56.880 to rivers
00:25:57.700 and lakes
00:25:58.480 and it's
00:25:59.840 truly
00:26:00.180 a miraculous
00:26:01.940 place
00:26:02.480 he was part of
00:26:03.000 the Save the
00:26:03.560 Redwoods League
00:26:04.480 Redwoods
00:26:05.560 of course
00:26:05.800 these massive
00:26:06.620 trees
00:26:07.360 mostly in
00:26:09.220 California
00:26:09.760 again
00:26:10.620 we
00:26:11.740 shouldn't
00:26:13.520 forget
00:26:13.980 what
00:26:14.820 still
00:26:15.500 exists
00:26:16.120 today
00:26:16.540 for us
00:26:17.080 to
00:26:17.400 appreciate
00:26:18.040 and
00:26:20.420 what
00:26:21.140 probably
00:26:21.600 wouldn't
00:26:21.980 exist
00:26:22.420 without
00:26:22.640 the work
00:26:23.200 of
00:26:23.560 Madison
00:26:24.260 Grant
00:26:24.640 and his
00:26:25.000 colleagues
00:26:25.580 this is
00:26:26.520 someone
00:26:26.700 who is
00:26:27.100 directly
00:26:27.600 involved
00:26:28.340 with
00:26:28.820 the
00:26:29.240 1924
00:26:31.320 or excuse
00:26:32.220 me
00:26:32.380 1927
00:26:33.220 Immigration
00:26:33.860 Restriction
00:26:35.200 Act
00:26:35.500 he was
00:26:36.100 part of
00:26:36.320 the
00:26:36.400 American
00:26:36.720 Defense
00:26:37.160 Society
00:26:37.620 and the
00:26:37.820 American
00:26:38.020 Restriction
00:26:38.620 League
00:26:38.900 so he
00:26:39.240 was
00:26:39.400 certainly
00:26:41.100 not a
00:26:41.540 politician
00:26:42.000 or a
00:26:42.420 political
00:26:42.600 operative
00:26:43.120 but he
00:26:44.020 was the
00:26:44.780 intellectual
00:26:45.480 force
00:26:46.280 behind
00:26:46.760 these
00:26:47.300 major
00:26:48.420 initiatives
00:26:48.920 which
00:26:49.700 more or
00:26:51.140 less
00:26:51.420 cut off
00:26:52.740 immigration
00:26:53.240 to the
00:26:53.480 United
00:26:53.620 States
00:26:53.920 and I
00:26:54.160 think
00:26:54.280 did more
00:26:54.760 than that
00:26:55.220 because
00:26:56.000 it
00:26:56.640 made sure
00:26:57.740 that America
00:26:58.280 was actually
00:26:58.740 going to
00:26:58.960 return to
00:26:59.560 what Grant
00:27:00.120 thought of as
00:27:00.580 a Nordic
00:27:01.120 America
00:27:01.600 the America
00:27:02.160 even before
00:27:03.040 some of the
00:27:04.180 massive
00:27:04.520 Eastern European
00:27:05.500 and Southern
00:27:05.920 European
00:27:06.320 immigration
00:27:06.940 in the
00:27:08.140 second half
00:27:08.600 of the
00:27:08.780 19th century
00:27:09.520 so this
00:27:10.700 is a
00:27:11.120 this is a
00:27:11.680 man
00:27:11.940 he was
00:27:12.240 he was
00:27:12.500 part of
00:27:12.800 the elite
00:27:13.300 he was
00:27:13.680 he was
00:27:14.020 actually
00:27:14.240 a kind
00:27:15.060 of Brahmin
00:27:15.680 he was
00:27:16.240 actually
00:27:16.440 from New
00:27:16.760 York City
00:27:17.120 not Boston
00:27:17.740 but you
00:27:19.340 when you
00:27:20.120 look at
00:27:20.440 these people
00:27:20.940 now
00:27:21.440 you realize
00:27:22.420 that there
00:27:22.800 was this
00:27:23.200 entire
00:27:24.600 elite
00:27:25.400 wasp
00:27:26.160 class
00:27:26.700 that was
00:27:27.140 part of
00:27:28.220 even a
00:27:28.680 deeper
00:27:28.940 tradition
00:27:29.680 which might
00:27:30.120 have
00:27:30.200 included
00:27:30.540 the Adamses
00:27:31.640 and all
00:27:32.540 of these
00:27:32.860 people
00:27:33.160 but just
00:27:33.460 a totally
00:27:34.180 different
00:27:35.000 version
00:27:35.500 of the
00:27:35.860 American
00:27:36.220 right
00:27:36.620 than what
00:27:37.780 we have
00:27:38.220 today
00:27:38.700 and in
00:27:39.300 many ways
00:27:39.560 if you
00:27:39.740 think about
00:27:40.140 it
00:27:40.260 what we
00:27:40.520 have
00:27:40.660 today
00:27:40.940 the
00:27:41.120 kind
00:27:41.320 of
00:27:41.520 buckley-eyed
00:27:42.480 influence
00:27:42.940 right
00:27:43.280 is a
00:27:43.740 replacement
00:27:45.620 or a
00:27:46.400 perversion
00:27:47.620 of what
00:27:47.940 we had
00:27:48.340 so anyway
00:27:49.620 if you
00:27:50.160 think about
00:27:50.880 the history
00:27:51.700 of the
00:27:52.200 life of
00:27:52.620 Madison
00:27:52.920 Grant
00:27:53.200 you really
00:27:53.720 see this
00:27:54.280 other world
00:27:55.120 a kind
00:27:55.460 of alternative
00:27:56.040 reality
00:27:56.700 for what
00:27:57.620 American
00:27:58.040 conservatism
00:27:58.900 could be
00:28:00.180 but do you
00:28:01.080 have any
00:28:01.280 thoughts on
00:28:01.720 that
00:28:01.960 Jonathan
00:28:02.460 in terms
00:28:03.060 of
00:28:03.400 this
00:28:05.040 you know
00:28:05.540 maybe
00:28:05.820 maybe
00:28:06.340 America
00:28:06.900 before the
00:28:08.320 Second World
00:28:08.840 War
00:28:09.280 had a
00:28:11.320 chance
00:28:12.660 to
00:28:13.520 have a
00:28:14.820 different
00:28:15.120 path
00:28:15.680 in the
00:28:15.960 world
00:28:16.340 that if
00:28:16.940 people like
00:28:17.640 Madison
00:28:18.520 Grant
00:28:19.020 had been
00:28:19.940 the
00:28:20.440 intellectual
00:28:21.080 leaders
00:28:21.600 and they
00:28:21.980 had been
00:28:22.260 able to
00:28:22.640 influence
00:28:23.140 political
00:28:24.900 leaders
00:28:25.240 and they
00:28:25.540 were
00:28:25.860 influencing
00:28:26.360 political
00:28:26.760 leaders
00:28:27.040 you know
00:28:27.280 Calvin
00:28:27.600 Coolidge
00:28:28.180 was writing
00:28:29.000 articles
00:28:29.580 and how
00:28:30.120 America
00:28:31.000 shouldn't
00:28:31.340 become
00:28:31.700 a 0.80
00:28:31.920 waste
00:28:32.380 dump
00:28:32.840 for
00:28:33.220 the
00:28:33.500 degenerate
00:28:34.920 or something
00:28:35.160 he was
00:28:35.380 using
00:28:35.640 extremely
00:28:36.300 strong
00:28:37.460 language
00:28:37.940 to probably
00:28:38.280 shock
00:28:38.800 some 0.96
00:28:39.140 white
00:28:39.420 nationalists
00:28:40.180 or something
00:28:40.860 so you
00:28:42.380 know
00:28:42.500 but I
00:28:43.400 guess my
00:28:43.760 question is
00:28:44.340 do you
00:28:44.560 think that
00:28:45.040 there was
00:28:46.320 this other
00:28:46.860 path that
00:28:47.680 America
00:28:48.020 could have
00:28:48.360 taken
00:28:48.700 if people
00:28:50.060 like
00:28:50.600 Madison
00:28:51.220 Grant
00:28:51.680 had
00:28:52.100 prevailed
00:28:52.720 instead of
00:28:54.260 the types
00:28:55.080 of people
00:28:55.380 we have
00:28:55.720 today
00:28:56.060 yes very
00:28:58.240 much so
00:28:58.760 I think
00:28:59.240 the different
00:29:01.400 paths that
00:29:01.940 America could
00:29:02.500 have followed
00:29:03.020 are all
00:29:04.180 proportionate to
00:29:04.980 the issue of
00:29:05.500 isolationism
00:29:06.340 if America
00:29:07.880 could have
00:29:08.260 remained
00:29:08.580 isolated
00:29:09.200 from not
00:29:11.100 the rest of
00:29:11.520 the world
00:29:11.800 because that's
00:29:12.260 an impossibility
00:29:12.980 but isolated
00:29:14.360 from policy
00:29:15.240 involvement
00:29:15.880 with the rest
00:29:17.340 of the world
00:29:18.000 and military
00:29:18.640 intervention
00:29:19.200 in the way
00:29:20.720 that occurred
00:29:21.380 in the first
00:29:21.980 world war
00:29:22.520 after which
00:29:23.420 there was
00:29:23.640 an isolationist
00:29:24.380 phase of
00:29:24.940 course
00:29:25.300 when President
00:29:26.280 Wilson's
00:29:26.880 diktat was
00:29:27.500 overthrown
00:29:28.220 and there
00:29:28.920 was a
00:29:29.280 return to
00:29:29.840 an isolationist
00:29:30.680 posture
00:29:31.060 and then
00:29:32.340 the build up
00:29:33.480 to the second
00:29:34.020 war which
00:29:34.620 changed everything
00:29:35.500 and which
00:29:36.760 led to the
00:29:37.280 ascent to
00:29:37.800 globalism
00:29:38.440 as Stephen
00:29:38.940 Ambrose calls
00:29:40.540 it in his
00:29:41.520 famous book
00:29:42.160 about the
00:29:42.780 emergence of
00:29:43.520 an American
00:29:43.980 empire as
00:29:44.860 it were
00:29:45.380 and the
00:29:46.660 Korean war
00:29:47.400 and then the
00:29:47.860 war with the
00:29:48.380 communist blocs
00:29:49.320 and the
00:29:50.460 modern world
00:29:51.300 that we have
00:29:51.720 today
00:29:52.220 I think
00:29:53.220 the influence
00:29:54.900 that such
00:29:55.280 figures would
00:29:56.200 have had
00:29:56.800 was entirely
00:29:57.880 proportionate
00:29:58.800 to the
00:29:59.440 degree to
00:29:59.860 which America
00:30:00.440 remained a
00:30:01.320 republic
00:30:01.720 and not an
00:30:02.800 empire
00:30:03.280 to use
00:30:04.320 Buchanan's
00:30:05.680 phrase
00:30:06.100 and the
00:30:08.040 more imperial
00:30:09.000 America became 0.63
00:30:10.080 the more it
00:30:10.960 became enamored
00:30:11.780 of other
00:30:12.720 models
00:30:13.280 and the less
00:30:14.600 it became
00:30:15.080 enamored of a
00:30:16.060 nativist
00:30:16.600 American model
00:30:17.520 it's almost
00:30:18.740 inevitable
00:30:19.240 that
00:30:19.620 nakedism
00:30:20.180 would go
00:30:20.620 together
00:30:21.100 with the
00:30:22.000 desire to
00:30:22.520 keep America
00:30:23.120 isolate
00:30:23.640 and keep 0.50
00:30:24.540 America
00:30:24.940 out of
00:30:25.900 other
00:30:26.240 conflicts
00:30:26.900 and to
00:30:28.400 keep America
00:30:28.940 from drifting
00:30:30.160 towards global
00:30:31.080 policeman type
00:30:31.980 roles that
00:30:33.020 it's been
00:30:33.360 keen to
00:30:33.800 adopt
00:30:34.260 since the
00:30:35.540 mid-1940s
00:30:37.740 since the
00:30:38.140 attack on
00:30:38.500 Pearl Harbor
00:30:39.060 essentially
00:30:39.560 so I
00:30:41.460 think the
00:30:42.600 general point
00:30:43.340 about men
00:30:44.180 like Grant
00:30:44.800 is that they
00:30:45.760 were from
00:30:46.200 an era
00:30:46.680 where America
00:30:47.900 should have
00:30:48.400 decided its
00:30:49.080 own destiny
00:30:49.700 in its
00:30:50.120 own terms
00:30:50.980 where the
00:30:52.840 notion of
00:30:53.520 American
00:30:53.920 uniqueness
00:30:54.760 and preferentialism
00:30:56.700 and providentialism
00:30:57.940 which irritates
00:31:00.040 the hell out of
00:31:00.700 the rest of the
00:31:01.220 world of course
00:31:01.980 this notion
00:31:04.040 of exceptionalism
00:31:05.220 had been
00:31:06.260 turned around
00:31:07.080 to indicate
00:31:08.220 an imperial
00:31:08.840 or post-imperial
00:31:10.240 vision
00:31:11.680 but in
00:31:12.660 here Grant's
00:31:13.780 day
00:31:14.060 it was
00:31:15.260 a plea
00:31:15.960 for American
00:31:16.660 uniqueness
00:31:17.180 in American
00:31:17.820 terms
00:31:18.520 which meant
00:31:19.540 that America
00:31:20.100 was to be
00:31:20.580 a society
00:31:21.240 that did not
00:31:22.280 involve itself
00:31:23.020 with the old
00:31:23.600 world
00:31:24.060 particularly
00:31:24.560 there was a
00:31:25.080 new world
00:31:25.760 sufficient unto
00:31:27.040 itself
00:31:27.600 and I think
00:31:29.260 once
00:31:29.860 America opened
00:31:32.220 up to the
00:31:32.660 forces that
00:31:33.340 wanted it to
00:31:34.060 go global
00:31:34.800 and play a
00:31:35.980 global role
00:31:36.840 the influence
00:31:38.060 of this old
00:31:38.820 patterned
00:31:39.660 cross-grained
00:31:40.440 wasp elite
00:31:41.260 was bound
00:31:42.140 to falter
00:31:42.820 and die 0.89
00:31:44.060 in the way
00:31:44.780 that it has
00:31:45.500 yes
00:31:46.240 well speaking
00:31:47.320 of the
00:31:48.580 ascent to
00:31:49.240 globalism
00:31:49.980 I think it's
00:31:51.000 worth talking
00:31:51.800 about the
00:31:52.480 issue of
00:31:52.920 Haiti
00:31:53.280 which was
00:31:54.440 quite an
00:31:55.280 important topic
00:31:56.120 for Lothrop
00:31:57.100 Stoddard
00:31:57.660 who was
00:31:59.040 one of
00:31:59.560 Grant's
00:31:59.940 protégés
00:32:00.580 certainly
00:32:01.000 modelled
00:32:01.580 his theories
00:32:02.980 on Grants
00:32:03.940 and so on
00:32:05.120 and so forth
00:32:05.700 he actually
00:32:07.240 wrote his
00:32:07.780 doctoral
00:32:08.080 dissertation
00:32:08.560 on the
00:32:10.040 revolution
00:32:10.660 in San
00:32:11.060 Domingo
00:32:11.600 and that
00:32:11.900 is the
00:32:12.320 race war
00:32:13.460 for lack
00:32:14.380 of a better
00:32:14.720 term
00:32:15.140 that occurred
00:32:15.760 in that
00:32:16.020 island
00:32:16.340 after the
00:32:17.460 French
00:32:17.720 Revolution
00:32:18.260 which is
00:32:19.560 certainly
00:32:19.780 inspired by
00:32:20.500 the French
00:32:20.800 Revolution
00:32:21.200 and I
00:32:22.400 think it's
00:32:22.660 worth
00:32:22.840 pointing out
00:32:23.900 a couple
00:32:24.680 of things
00:32:25.360 to go
00:32:26.700 back to
00:32:27.320 American
00:32:27.820 globalism
00:32:28.580 but in
00:32:29.780 1915
00:32:31.100 US Marines
00:32:33.460 were actually
00:32:34.140 sent to
00:32:34.800 Haiti
00:32:35.100 by Woodrow
00:32:36.100 Wilson
00:32:36.460 and he
00:32:36.960 said that
00:32:37.500 he was
00:32:37.740 going to
00:32:38.040 bring
00:32:38.520 democracy
00:32:39.260 and they
00:32:40.680 actually
00:32:40.940 remained
00:32:41.460 there
00:32:41.800 for some
00:32:42.440 20-25
00:32:43.560 years
00:32:44.120 they built
00:32:45.060 all sorts
00:32:45.600 of things
00:32:46.060 and that
00:32:46.940 didn't really
00:32:47.460 work
00:32:47.860 and then
00:32:48.220 actually
00:32:48.600 in the
00:32:49.020 latter half
00:32:50.040 of Dwight
00:32:51.080 Eisenhower's
00:32:51.760 administration
00:32:52.360 Marines
00:32:53.940 were sent
00:32:54.380 back to
00:32:54.900 Haiti
00:32:55.120 to keep
00:32:55.680 it from
00:32:55.960 going
00:32:56.220 communist
00:32:56.820 and
00:32:58.260 the island
00:32:59.500 didn't do
00:33:00.200 too much
00:33:00.780 and then
00:33:01.400 in 1994
00:33:02.100 Bill Clinton
00:33:02.960 actually
00:33:03.320 sought to
00:33:03.800 restore
00:33:04.260 democracy
00:33:04.860 this time
00:33:06.340 around
00:33:07.300 75-100
00:33:09.580 years later
00:33:10.240 after it
00:33:10.620 was brought
00:33:11.200 to the
00:33:11.680 island
00:33:11.980 and so
00:33:13.840 it seems
00:33:14.700 like Haiti 0.84
00:33:15.440 it's
00:33:17.280 almost been
00:33:19.300 a platform
00:33:20.120 for all
00:33:21.140 of these
00:33:21.480 ideas
00:33:22.020 to play
00:33:24.060 out
00:33:24.360 that is
00:33:24.620 American
00:33:24.980 globalism
00:33:25.780 the continual
00:33:26.540 failure of
00:33:27.320 American
00:33:27.600 globalism
00:33:28.240 and also
00:33:29.800 something
00:33:30.200 that
00:33:30.560 Stoddard
00:33:31.100 talked
00:33:31.480 about
00:33:31.820 which
00:33:32.120 was
00:33:32.340 those
00:33:32.660 revolutionary
00:33:34.160 ideas
00:33:34.960 that would
00:33:35.680 inflame
00:33:36.580 the minds
00:33:38.040 of men
00:33:38.660 so
00:33:38.940 maybe
00:33:39.580 Jonathan
00:33:39.900 you could
00:33:40.100 just talk
00:33:40.520 a little
00:33:40.820 bit
00:33:41.160 about
00:33:41.780 Stoddard's
00:33:43.200 rather
00:33:43.980 fascinating
00:33:44.740 book
00:33:45.260 on Haiti
00:33:46.100 and a lot
00:33:47.220 of the
00:33:47.440 ideas
00:33:47.960 that he
00:33:48.240 brings
00:33:48.520 up
00:33:48.760 and also
00:33:49.700 just the
00:33:50.560 contemporary
00:33:51.140 relevance
00:33:51.760 of Haiti
00:33:52.220 how
00:33:52.660 it's
00:33:53.360 still
00:33:53.720 in the
00:33:54.100 news
00:33:54.420 we're
00:33:54.720 still
00:33:55.420 fascinated
00:33:57.360 by ideas
00:33:58.400 of
00:33:58.640 democratizing
00:33:59.580 it
00:33:59.900 or
00:34:00.080 quote
00:34:00.620 developing
00:34:01.280 it
00:34:01.580 in
00:34:02.260 quote
00:34:02.540 and
00:34:02.700 how
00:34:03.040 this
00:34:03.340 fetish
00:34:04.260 almost
00:34:04.600 won't
00:34:04.980 ever
00:34:05.260 go
00:34:05.460 away
00:34:05.820 yes
00:34:07.440 it's
00:34:07.860 a sort
00:34:08.160 of
00:34:08.340 starting
00:34:09.560 to start
00:34:10.000 relief
00:34:10.320 by the
00:34:10.720 recent
00:34:11.020 Haitian
00:34:11.480 earthquake
00:34:11.880 and the
00:34:13.160 enormous
00:34:13.520 expenditure
00:34:14.240 of dollars
00:34:14.860 and time
00:34:15.880 and muscle
00:34:16.400 and energy
00:34:16.980 in trying
00:34:17.960 to rebuild
00:34:18.600 Haiti
00:34:18.960 after the
00:34:19.500 earthquake
00:34:19.920 I remember
00:34:20.380 Alex
00:34:20.800 Katarjic
00:34:21.540 I think
00:34:22.480 wrote
00:34:22.860 a piece
00:34:24.160 on
00:34:24.320 alternative
00:34:24.780 right
00:34:25.360 or certainly
00:34:26.480 similar
00:34:26.900 websites
00:34:27.440 to the
00:34:27.900 extent
00:34:28.340 that
00:34:28.580 Haiti
00:34:28.900 should
00:34:29.180 not
00:34:29.380 be
00:34:29.580 rebuilt
00:34:30.120 which of
00:34:32.000 course
00:34:32.260 is an
00:34:33.160 argument
00:34:33.500 for
00:34:34.100 dysgenics
00:34:34.860 in many
00:34:35.240 respects
00:34:35.860 the
00:34:38.200 revolution
00:34:39.320 in San
00:34:39.680 Domingo
00:34:40.140 dealt
00:34:41.400 with the
00:34:42.040 immediate
00:34:42.580 aftermath
00:34:43.180 of the
00:34:44.640 French
00:34:44.960 revolution
00:34:45.440 impact
00:34:46.120 on Haiti
00:34:46.700 and the
00:34:48.160 tripartite
00:34:49.120 war that
00:34:49.600 developed
00:34:49.900 between
00:34:50.220 the
00:34:50.360 British
00:34:50.600 crown
00:34:51.020 and
00:34:51.260 Spanish
00:34:51.740 and the
00:34:52.040 French
00:34:52.280 authorities
00:34:52.800 there
00:34:53.240 and the
00:34:54.240 emergence
00:34:54.700 of
00:34:55.500 a
00:34:56.640 racially
00:34:56.960 conscious 0.69
00:34:57.440 black 0.55
00:34:57.820 army
00:34:58.240 under
00:34:58.560 Troisant
00:34:58.980 Leverture
00:34:59.660 and
00:35:02.180 its
00:35:02.780 aftermath
00:35:03.380 in
00:35:03.940 Haiti
00:35:04.340 where
00:35:05.860 Leverture
00:35:06.760 was outmaneuvered
00:35:07.620 by Napoleon
00:35:08.400 who history
00:35:10.100 records of course
00:35:11.040 was a
00:35:11.440 racialist
00:35:12.160 which rather
00:35:13.680 shocks people
00:35:14.440 today
00:35:15.020 when Troisant
00:35:16.620 was invited
00:35:17.400 to France
00:35:17.980 he was promptly
00:35:18.520 arrested
00:35:19.240 and put in a
00:35:20.220 tower
00:35:20.540 and Napoleon
00:35:22.760 turned to his
00:35:23.380 marshals
00:35:23.780 and said
00:35:24.140 you see
00:35:24.460 how I
00:35:24.840 deal
00:35:25.000 with them
00:35:25.400 and
00:35:27.540 Napoleon's 0.81
00:35:30.960 views on
00:35:31.780 many of
00:35:32.440 these matters
00:35:33.240 are now
00:35:33.720 quite notorious
00:35:34.460 and have led
00:35:35.420 to a de-escalation
00:35:36.440 of the Napoleonic
00:35:37.280 cult
00:35:37.800 that was part
00:35:38.860 and parcel
00:35:39.320 of French
00:35:39.940 intellectual life
00:35:40.940 for the
00:35:41.620 better part
00:35:42.140 of the
00:35:42.360 last 200
00:35:42.980 years
00:35:43.560 so
00:35:44.780 this
00:35:46.920 racial
00:35:47.480 warfare
00:35:48.120 which is
00:35:48.680 not too
00:35:49.520 extreme
00:35:50.380 to call
00:35:50.880 it
00:35:51.200 which
00:35:52.080 subsumed
00:35:52.980 Haiti
00:35:53.380 and which
00:35:54.380 led
00:35:54.720 after many
00:35:55.520 bloody
00:35:55.880 massacres
00:35:56.460 and interneed
00:35:57.100 strife
00:35:57.860 to the
00:35:58.560 massacre
00:35:58.920 of the
00:35:59.360 residual
00:35:59.800 white
00:36:00.400 largely
00:36:00.800 French
00:36:01.300 population
00:36:02.020 and
00:36:03.800 the
00:36:04.060 emergence
00:36:04.500 of a 0.97
00:36:04.940 black
00:36:05.280 republican
00:36:06.200 dictatorship
00:36:07.000 in
00:36:07.960 Haiti
00:36:08.280 for most
00:36:09.340 of the
00:36:09.600 19th
00:36:10.060 century
00:36:10.480 Haiti
00:36:11.460 is
00:36:11.720 essentially
00:36:12.080 an
00:36:12.280 African
00:36:12.560 society
00:36:13.200 in
00:36:14.720 the
00:36:15.180 western
00:36:15.620 world
00:36:16.220 and
00:36:17.220 closely
00:36:17.720 resembles
00:36:18.300 the
00:36:18.600 society
00:36:19.040 America
00:36:19.480 set up
00:36:20.020 in extreme
00:36:20.560 West Africa
00:36:21.220 called
00:36:21.560 Liberia
00:36:22.300 the
00:36:23.100 Liberian
00:36:23.640 flag
00:36:23.980 is of course
00:36:24.460 the
00:36:24.640 American
00:36:24.980 flag
00:36:25.500 which is
00:36:25.860 one
00:36:26.160 star
00:36:26.720 and
00:36:27.520 Liberia
00:36:28.160 which
00:36:28.420 America
00:36:28.820 has also
00:36:29.320 intervened
00:36:30.000 in
00:36:30.340 for the
00:36:31.040 best part
00:36:31.460 of a
00:36:31.660 century
00:36:31.960 and a
00:36:32.240 half
00:36:32.680 in order
00:36:33.420 to try
00:36:33.800 and make
00:36:34.140 things
00:36:34.480 right
00:36:35.000 was to
00:36:36.200 be the
00:36:36.780 resettlement
00:36:37.460 zone for 0.99
00:36:38.180 the black 0.99
00:36:38.540 slaves 0.55
00:36:39.160 the Lincoln
00:36:41.160 policy
00:36:42.100 in relation
00:36:43.400 to black
00:36:43.820 emancipation
00:36:44.540 had two
00:36:45.020 strands
00:36:45.620 one of which
00:36:46.580 of course
00:36:46.920 was never
00:36:47.300 realized
00:36:47.980 and that
00:36:48.700 was the
00:36:48.980 second
00:36:49.240 one
00:36:49.720 whereby
00:36:50.300 after the
00:36:50.840 civil war
00:36:51.600 he wished
00:36:52.620 at least
00:36:53.080 in theory
00:36:53.740 to deport
00:36:54.980 the African 0.75
00:36:55.960 population
00:36:56.600 of the
00:36:56.880 United
00:36:57.120 States
00:36:57.560 back to
00:36:58.060 Liberia
00:36:58.720 which is
00:36:59.460 why this
00:36:59.880 colony
00:37:00.180 was established
00:37:00.820 on the
00:37:01.300 extreme
00:37:01.580 West
00:37:01.840 African
00:37:02.200 coast
00:37:02.820 and that
00:37:03.920 of course
00:37:04.300 never
00:37:04.580 was carried
00:37:05.680 forward
00:37:06.200 but in
00:37:07.060 relation to
00:37:07.540 Haiti
00:37:08.060 Stoddard
00:37:09.280 sees
00:37:10.020 it is
00:37:12.460 a clear
00:37:12.860 example
00:37:13.420 of white 0.96
00:37:13.940 folly
00:37:14.380 in relation
00:37:15.440 to dealing
00:37:16.120 with
00:37:16.680 essentially
00:37:17.620 another
00:37:18.200 race
00:37:18.740 that has
00:37:20.140 different
00:37:20.580 standards
00:37:21.140 of behavior
00:37:22.080 different
00:37:22.900 standards
00:37:23.440 different
00:37:23.920 characteristics
00:37:24.940 of identity
00:37:25.700 and will
00:37:26.880 run a
00:37:27.240 society
00:37:27.760 in a
00:37:28.080 completely
00:37:28.440 different
00:37:28.920 manner
00:37:29.360 to that
00:37:30.240 which
00:37:30.460 Europeans
00:37:31.120 would
00:37:31.560 or even
00:37:32.500 semi-Europeans
00:37:33.480 would
00:37:33.820 the elite
00:37:34.920 in Haiti
00:37:35.420 since the
00:37:36.120 massacring of 0.97
00:37:36.720 the whites 0.90
00:37:37.140 in the early
00:37:37.620 20th and
00:37:38.140 19th century
00:37:38.900 has always
00:37:39.920 been the
00:37:40.380 latter
00:37:40.640 of course
00:37:41.140 has always
00:37:41.520 been of
00:37:41.840 mixed race
00:37:42.540 including
00:37:43.680 the
00:37:43.940 notorious 0.91
00:37:44.420 Haitian
00:37:45.440 dictatorship
00:37:46.020 of the
00:37:46.980 mid-20th
00:37:47.580 century
00:37:48.080 Papadoc
00:37:48.760 Devalier's 0.91
00:37:49.520 regime
00:37:49.940 and the
00:37:50.840 militia
00:37:51.240 of the
00:37:51.440 Tom Tom
00:37:51.860 Macout
00:37:52.340 through whom
00:37:53.020 he exercised
00:37:53.940 supreme
00:37:54.880 authority
00:37:55.420 the Americans
00:37:56.620 supported him
00:37:57.780 despite all
00:37:59.620 of the
00:37:59.860 penchant
00:38:00.400 for
00:38:01.000 bloodthirst
00:38:03.140 you know
00:38:03.460 putting
00:38:03.820 cabinet
00:38:04.200 members
00:38:04.540 to death
00:38:04.980 during 0.85
00:38:05.240 cabinet
00:38:05.600 meetings
00:38:06.240 personal
00:38:08.120 support
00:38:08.620 for
00:38:08.820 voodooism 0.99
00:38:09.520 dispensing
00:38:11.940 money
00:38:12.240 in the
00:38:12.560 streets
00:38:13.060 surrounded
00:38:14.720 by men
00:38:15.280 with
00:38:15.420 weapons
00:38:15.880 traditional
00:38:16.880 African
00:38:17.840 ways
00:38:18.240 of
00:38:18.380 behaving
00:38:18.860 the
00:38:20.400 United
00:38:20.680 States
00:38:21.060 of
00:38:21.200 America
00:38:21.540 supported
00:38:22.120 all of
00:38:23.260 this
00:38:23.560 for the
00:38:24.920 fear of
00:38:25.240 getting
00:38:25.440 something
00:38:25.760 worse
00:38:26.140 in
00:38:26.320 Haiti
00:38:26.620 indeed
00:38:27.700 America
00:38:28.160 is always
00:38:28.620 intervening
00:38:29.420 to either
00:38:30.340 prevent
00:38:30.760 authoritarianism
00:38:31.660 in
00:38:31.840 Haiti
00:38:32.160 hence
00:38:33.140 but also
00:38:35.900 reluctant to
00:38:36.840 endorse
00:38:37.220 certain
00:38:37.500 people
00:38:37.760 who
00:38:37.880 are
00:38:37.980 thrown
00:38:38.240 up
00:38:38.420 by
00:38:38.680 democracy
00:38:39.720 or
00:38:40.040 pseudo-democratic
00:38:40.900 reform
00:38:41.580 in
00:38:42.240 Haiti
00:38:42.540 the
00:38:43.300 controversy
00:38:44.660 around
00:38:45.020 President
00:38:45.420 Aristide
00:38:46.300 when Clinton
00:38:47.360 was in
00:38:47.940 power
00:38:48.720 is a
00:38:49.660 testament
00:38:49.980 to this
00:38:50.620 and
00:38:51.620 the
00:38:54.200 IQ
00:38:54.600 level
00:38:55.060 in
00:38:55.340 Haiti
00:38:55.640 is 1.00
00:38:56.240 pathetically 1.00
00:38:56.860 low
00:38:57.380 the
00:38:58.160 standard
00:38:58.600 of
00:38:58.820 living
00:38:59.060 is
00:38:59.420 extraordinarily
00:39:00.060 low
00:39:00.740 an
00:39:01.320 enormous
00:39:01.680 proportion
00:39:02.120 of the
00:39:02.380 population
00:39:02.900 still
00:39:03.300 live in
00:39:03.660 shanty
00:39:04.000 towns
00:39:04.480 still
00:39:05.380 live in
00:39:05.880 wooden
00:39:06.660 huts
00:39:07.240 still
00:39:08.040 live in
00:39:08.460 cardboard
00:39:08.820 boxes
00:39:09.300 a
00:39:09.560 significant
00:39:10.060 proportion
00:39:10.620 of
00:39:10.820 people
00:39:11.260 eke
00:39:11.960 out
00:39:12.340 a
00:39:12.900 purely
00:39:13.160 subsistence
00:39:13.880 form
00:39:14.160 of
00:39:14.320 life
00:39:14.760 one
00:39:16.580 of the
00:39:16.800 reasons
00:39:17.060 the
00:39:17.280 earthquake
00:39:17.560 had such
00:39:18.100 devastating
00:39:18.620 effects
00:39:19.200 the
00:39:20.300 size
00:39:20.660 of
00:39:20.820 the
00:39:21.000 houses
00:39:22.500 were
00:39:22.800 jelly
00:39:23.020 built
00:39:23.440 and
00:39:24.120 didn't
00:39:24.380 have
00:39:24.640 the
00:39:24.840 internal
00:39:25.320 architectural
00:39:26.040 armour
00:39:27.140 that's
00:39:27.960 necessary
00:39:28.500 to
00:39:29.040 prevent
00:39:29.480 them
00:39:30.220 from
00:39:30.420 falling
00:39:30.700 about
00:39:31.020 people's
00:39:31.520 ears
00:39:31.880 similar
00:39:32.900 earthquakes
00:39:34.500 occur in
00:39:35.040 Japan
00:39:35.240 all the
00:39:35.720 time
00:39:36.140 and
00:39:36.740 hardly
00:39:37.020 anyone
00:39:37.380 is
00:39:37.620 injured
00:39:37.880 at
00:39:38.120 all
00:39:38.460 and
00:39:39.020 this
00:39:39.140 is
00:39:39.260 because
00:39:39.480 the
00:39:39.680 quality
00:39:39.980 of
00:39:40.140 the
00:39:40.240 building
00:39:40.560 is
00:39:40.740 so
00:39:40.920 much
00:39:41.100 better
00:39:41.460 but
00:39:43.420 Haiti
00:39:45.140 is
00:39:45.460 essentially
00:39:45.900 a
00:39:46.120 basket
00:39:46.440 case
00:39:46.840 society
00:39:47.400 and
00:39:49.540 it's
00:39:51.180 Stoddard
00:39:52.280 systematized
00:39:53.300 the
00:39:53.480 recognition
00:39:53.980 of this
00:39:54.620 usually
00:39:55.500 it's
00:39:55.760 dealt
00:39:55.960 with
00:39:56.200 anecdotally
00:39:57.140 there's
00:39:58.860 a book
00:39:59.120 by
00:39:59.400 St.
00:39:59.660 John
00:39:59.960 at the
00:40:00.540 end
00:40:00.700 of the
00:40:01.080 20th
00:40:01.680 century
00:40:02.020 called
00:40:02.340 Haiti
00:40:02.780 19th
00:40:03.720 century
00:40:03.940 called
00:40:04.200 Haiti
00:40:04.480 the 0.98
00:40:04.700 black
00:40:04.900 republic
00:40:05.380 but
00:40:06.540 his
00:40:06.760 analysis
00:40:07.220 of
00:40:07.540 Haiti
00:40:07.820 is
00:40:08.560 anecdotal
00:40:11.840 really
00:40:12.400 and
00:40:13.060 spectatorish
00:40:14.340 whereas
00:40:15.540 Stoddard
00:40:17.240 is
00:40:17.760 scientific
00:40:18.540 and
00:40:19.920 eugenic
00:40:21.120 and
00:40:22.120 sociobiological
00:40:23.180 and
00:40:24.820 anthropological
00:40:25.920 biophysical
00:40:27.540 and racially
00:40:28.880 historical
00:40:29.500 so
00:40:30.840 it's an
00:40:31.780 attempt to
00:40:32.280 systematize
00:40:33.280 what might
00:40:34.140 otherwise
00:40:34.640 appear to
00:40:35.480 be whimsy
00:40:36.240 and a
00:40:36.940 collection
00:40:37.320 of
00:40:37.560 anecdotes
00:40:39.260 about
00:40:39.740 an
00:40:40.960 Africanized
00:40:41.740 society
00:40:42.340 in
00:40:43.380 the
00:40:44.520 Caribbean
00:40:44.900 and
00:40:46.120 the
00:40:46.340 perils
00:40:46.820 and
00:40:47.020 misadventures
00:40:47.660 of it
00:40:48.120 so
00:40:48.960 Stoddard's
00:40:49.720 view
00:40:50.060 is a
00:40:50.640 systematization
00:40:51.600 of what
00:40:52.620 otherwise
00:40:53.040 could be
00:40:53.720 sort of
00:40:54.240 ethnic
00:40:55.520 and
00:40:56.780 political
00:40:57.380 cliches
00:40:58.320 but it's
00:40:59.440 a pretty
00:40:59.720 devastating
00:41:00.280 analysis
00:41:00.840 of
00:41:01.400 Haiti
00:41:01.820 which
00:41:02.660 can't
00:41:03.000 really
00:41:03.240 be
00:41:03.440 refuted
00:41:03.980 given
00:41:04.760 its
00:41:05.160 current
00:41:05.940 power
00:41:06.360 of
00:41:06.580 state
00:41:07.060 as
00:41:08.060 a
00:41:09.020 semi
00:41:09.260 civilized
00:41:09.900 policy
00:41:10.440 yes
00:41:12.060 you know
00:41:12.340 one thing
00:41:12.960 that I
00:41:14.080 found quite
00:41:14.800 interesting
00:41:15.300 about his
00:41:16.200 book
00:41:16.540 which I
00:41:16.880 actually
00:41:17.140 read
00:41:17.600 recently
00:41:18.620 because Alex
00:41:19.260 put out a
00:41:19.920 new edition
00:41:20.780 and that is
00:41:21.700 the combination
00:41:22.740 between
00:41:23.640 let's say
00:41:24.900 leftist ideology
00:41:26.220 on one hand
00:41:27.240 and then
00:41:28.260 genetics
00:41:29.740 and biology
00:41:31.060 on the other
00:41:32.320 and you know
00:41:33.680 one thing you
00:41:34.340 got from the
00:41:35.260 book
00:41:35.640 is that
00:41:36.280 this pot
00:41:39.020 was simmering
00:41:40.160 for a long
00:41:40.900 time
00:41:41.320 there was
00:41:42.080 always going
00:41:43.000 to be
00:41:43.380 this racial
00:41:44.160 clash
00:41:44.920 it was never
00:41:45.940 going to
00:41:46.340 ultimately
00:41:46.960 work
00:41:47.460 it was always
00:41:47.860 going to
00:41:48.120 end in
00:41:48.560 tears
00:41:48.880 and blood
00:41:49.480 but what
00:41:50.680 really set
00:41:51.880 off the
00:41:52.380 revolution
00:41:53.140 the catalyst
00:41:54.520 was this
00:41:55.540 new way
00:41:56.560 of talking
00:41:57.280 that was
00:41:58.380 brought to
00:41:59.220 the island
00:41:59.700 immediately
00:42:00.720 after the
00:42:01.380 French
00:42:01.580 Revolution
00:42:02.080 that you
00:42:02.840 could soon
00:42:03.420 start talking
00:42:04.220 about the
00:42:04.680 rights of
00:42:05.180 man
00:42:05.540 and so
00:42:06.660 on and
00:42:06.900 so forth
00:42:07.460 and that
00:42:08.020 this
00:42:08.500 was like
00:42:09.920 pouring
00:42:10.440 gasoline
00:42:11.080 on the
00:42:11.480 fire
00:42:11.800 and it
00:42:12.020 almost
00:42:12.220 immediately
00:42:12.780 set off
00:42:13.620 a revolution
00:42:15.400 and a race
00:42:16.140 war on the
00:42:16.780 island
00:42:17.100 yes it
00:42:20.460 was
00:42:20.660 and yet
00:42:21.880 the irony
00:42:22.280 is that
00:42:22.660 most of
00:42:23.000 those
00:42:23.140 French
00:42:23.400 revolutionary
00:42:23.840 ideas
00:42:24.400 were never
00:42:24.700 to be
00:42:24.960 applied
00:42:25.260 in that
00:42:25.620 way
00:42:26.060 because
00:42:26.920 most of
00:42:27.440 the
00:42:27.560 extreme
00:42:27.920 revolutionaries
00:42:28.520 in France
00:42:29.140 such as
00:42:29.500 the
00:42:29.640 Club de
00:42:29.940 Cotelier
00:42:30.360 and the
00:42:31.300 Club de
00:42:31.620 Jacobin
00:42:32.200 the two
00:42:32.820 major
00:42:33.160 revolutionary
00:42:33.760 clubs
00:42:34.400 only ever
00:42:36.440 thought
00:42:36.760 that those
00:42:37.340 ideas
00:42:37.820 would be
00:42:38.140 applicable
00:42:38.560 to
00:42:39.040 Europeans
00:42:39.680 to
00:42:40.540 Frenchmen
00:42:41.040 in particular
00:42:41.700 and to
00:42:42.580 white men
00:42:43.020 in general
00:42:43.600 they never
00:42:44.920 thought
00:42:45.220 that those
00:42:45.580 ideas
00:42:45.960 would be
00:42:46.260 applicable
00:42:46.620 to other
00:42:47.040 groups
00:42:47.540 and although
00:42:48.440 there were
00:42:48.820 always those
00:42:49.580 that wished
00:42:50.060 to go
00:42:50.460 further
00:42:50.900 there was
00:42:52.320 no
00:42:52.760 tendency
00:42:53.840 in France
00:42:54.660 apart from
00:42:55.300 on the
00:42:55.640 fringes
00:42:56.120 of the
00:42:56.400 fringes
00:42:57.020 and this
00:42:57.900 was amongst
00:42:58.300 the revolutionary
00:42:58.920 class
00:42:59.440 don't forget
00:43:00.040 to
00:43:00.820 emancipate
00:43:01.420 the
00:43:01.580 slaves
00:43:02.100 nor
00:43:02.880 was
00:43:03.060 there
00:43:03.220 any
00:43:03.440 move
00:43:03.860 to
00:43:04.080 particularly
00:43:04.720 and
00:43:05.420 Napoleon
00:43:05.840 certainly
00:43:06.260 put the
00:43:06.600 kibosh 0.68
00:43:07.000 on that
00:43:07.420 because he
00:43:07.820 had no
00:43:08.100 intention
00:43:08.480 of doing
00:43:08.860 so
00:43:09.200 just as
00:43:10.060 there was
00:43:10.280 no
00:43:10.460 intention
00:43:11.300 to
00:43:12.260 extend
00:43:12.680 these
00:43:12.960 ideas
00:43:13.440 of
00:43:13.640 liberation
00:43:14.140 to
00:43:14.440 women 1.00
00:43:14.800 this was
00:43:16.020 regarded
00:43:16.420 as absurd
00:43:17.100 even by
00:43:17.760 the
00:43:17.920 Jacobins
00:43:18.380 themselves
00:43:18.960 and the
00:43:20.380 most radical
00:43:20.940 people on
00:43:21.640 the Jacobin
00:43:22.160 side
00:43:22.480 people like
00:43:23.000 Rubspear
00:43:23.620 and
00:43:24.320 St.
00:43:24.540 Just
00:43:24.980 deprecated
00:43:26.780 the idea
00:43:27.340 that these
00:43:27.880 ideas
00:43:28.400 were always
00:43:29.260 for export
00:43:30.000 and always
00:43:31.520 to be
00:43:32.440 reinterpreted
00:43:33.660 in different
00:43:34.060 contexts
00:43:34.780 although
00:43:35.620 there were
00:43:37.840 people who
00:43:38.400 saw the
00:43:38.800 correlation
00:43:39.360 and believed
00:43:41.000 in the
00:43:41.240 universalism
00:43:42.280 of the
00:43:42.580 declaration
00:43:43.060 of the
00:43:43.360 rights
00:43:43.540 of man
00:43:43.880 there was
00:43:44.180 the group
00:43:44.720 was it
00:43:45.020 the
00:43:45.220 amis
00:43:45.760 des
00:43:46.100 noirs
00:43:46.640 the
00:43:47.080 friends
00:43:47.720 of the
00:43:48.080 blacks 1.00
00:43:48.580 that I
00:43:49.640 remember
00:43:50.880 that were
00:43:51.480 kind of
00:43:52.240 putting
00:43:52.580 taking
00:43:53.140 leftism
00:43:54.840 to its
00:43:55.240 ultimate
00:43:55.720 conclusion
00:43:56.300 in some
00:43:57.440 ways
00:43:57.640 what we're
00:43:58.280 talking
00:43:58.620 about
00:43:58.940 is the
00:43:59.680 history
00:44:00.240 of the
00:44:00.500 left
00:44:00.700 in general
00:44:01.280 which has
00:44:01.840 moved
00:44:02.740 from
00:44:03.300 advocating
00:44:04.680 for
00:44:05.220 working
00:44:05.640 people
00:44:06.180 or the
00:44:06.540 proletariat
00:44:07.220 towards
00:44:07.980 advocating
00:44:08.580 for the
00:44:09.200 wretched
00:44:09.420 of the
00:44:09.760 earth
00:44:10.060 and the
00:44:10.920 third
00:44:11.100 world
00:44:11.540 in some
00:44:12.440 ways
00:44:12.560 that is
00:44:13.140 the
00:44:13.440 movement
00:44:14.380 of the
00:44:14.880 left
00:44:15.240 in a
00:44:15.780 nutshell
00:44:16.100 over the
00:44:16.620 past
00:44:17.580 hundred
00:44:17.820 years
00:44:18.140 or so
00:44:19.060 in
00:44:20.320 closing
00:44:20.740 Jonathan
00:44:21.160 let me
00:44:21.600 bring up
00:44:22.200 another
00:44:23.080 movement
00:44:24.660 which is
00:44:25.180 associated
00:44:25.780 with the
00:44:26.500 left
00:44:26.940 but it's
00:44:28.180 also one
00:44:28.740 that's
00:44:28.920 associated
00:44:29.320 with
00:44:29.560 Madison
00:44:29.960 Grant
00:44:30.460 and it's
00:44:32.460 one that
00:44:32.920 I truly
00:44:34.060 hope that
00:44:34.900 our
00:44:35.380 side
00:44:37.160 our little
00:44:38.360 fringe
00:44:38.960 contingent
00:44:39.700 that we
00:44:40.160 might
00:44:40.460 reclaim
00:44:41.880 at some
00:44:42.800 point
00:44:43.040 and I
00:44:43.260 think we
00:44:43.480 should be
00:44:43.800 working to
00:44:44.280 reclaim it
00:44:44.680 right now
00:44:45.080 and that
00:44:45.440 is
00:44:45.700 environmentalism
00:44:47.140 so-called
00:44:47.780 but I
00:44:49.480 actually
00:44:49.880 don't even
00:44:50.740 like the
00:44:51.240 word
00:44:51.660 environmentalism
00:44:53.140 I like
00:44:54.360 I think
00:44:55.060 saying we're
00:44:55.940 naturalist
00:44:56.780 or that
00:44:57.180 we want
00:44:58.320 to conserve
00:44:58.900 nature
00:44:59.500 is a much
00:45:00.680 better term
00:45:02.120 nature
00:45:03.660 has all
00:45:04.200 sorts
00:45:04.560 evokes all
00:45:05.540 sorts of
00:45:05.860 things
00:45:06.140 has all
00:45:06.500 sorts of
00:45:06.820 connotations
00:45:07.440 I think
00:45:07.920 are much
00:45:08.220 more positive
00:45:08.920 than
00:45:09.240 environment
00:45:10.340 which seems
00:45:10.920 kind of
00:45:11.300 sterile
00:45:11.900 and things
00:45:12.260 like this
00:45:12.680 obviously
00:45:14.080 Madison
00:45:14.740 Grant
00:45:15.060 was a
00:45:15.920 scientist
00:45:16.340 but he
00:45:18.220 also wanted
00:45:19.080 to preserve
00:45:20.120 say the
00:45:21.680 bison
00:45:22.080 because they
00:45:22.640 were a
00:45:22.980 majestic
00:45:23.360 animal
00:45:23.820 he thought
00:45:24.260 they were
00:45:24.540 beautiful
00:45:24.960 he obviously
00:45:25.740 wanted to
00:45:26.440 preserve
00:45:26.880 Glacier
00:45:27.340 National Park
00:45:28.760 or the
00:45:29.000 area
00:45:29.360 therein
00:45:30.580 because it
00:45:31.800 was some
00:45:32.360 of the
00:45:32.540 most
00:45:32.740 spectacular
00:45:33.360 grounds
00:45:34.420 you know
00:45:34.900 on the
00:45:35.480 earth
00:45:35.740 so there's
00:45:37.340 a kind
00:45:37.740 of I
00:45:38.240 think one
00:45:38.800 way that
00:45:39.300 what we
00:45:39.880 could bring
00:45:40.360 to
00:45:40.560 environmentalism
00:45:41.340 which I
00:45:42.120 think is
00:45:42.480 the most
00:45:42.980 healthy and
00:45:44.340 positive
00:45:44.780 aspect
00:45:45.420 environmentalism
00:45:46.260 which actually
00:45:47.060 attracts people
00:45:48.120 as opposed
00:45:49.620 to the
00:45:51.280 other
00:45:51.940 environmentalist
00:45:52.900 movements
00:45:54.080 of like
00:45:54.500 global
00:45:54.920 government
00:45:55.460 and you
00:45:56.780 know
00:45:56.940 things like
00:45:57.460 this
00:45:57.680 which are
00:45:58.000 not very
00:45:58.640 attractive
00:45:59.060 but what
00:45:59.880 attracts
00:46:00.240 people is
00:46:00.560 that idea
00:46:00.820 of nature
00:46:01.280 the beauty
00:46:01.940 of nature
00:46:02.360 and experiencing
00:46:03.000 nature
00:46:03.500 and so
00:46:04.900 maybe we
00:46:05.260 could just
00:46:05.640 close on
00:46:06.800 that thought
00:46:07.460 a little
00:46:07.920 Jonathan
00:46:08.720 what do
00:46:10.360 you think
00:46:10.640 about that
00:46:11.040 of our
00:46:11.760 ability
00:46:12.320 our unique
00:46:13.240 ability
00:46:13.760 to reclaim
00:46:15.320 conservationism
00:46:17.560 or naturalism
00:46:18.420 and how
00:46:19.600 much like
00:46:21.500 Grant
00:46:22.040 that should
00:46:22.840 be a
00:46:23.400 major cause
00:46:24.380 for us
00:46:24.880 which is
00:46:25.280 to keep
00:46:26.220 the world
00:46:26.840 green
00:46:27.620 and beautiful
00:46:28.680 and to
00:46:30.480 fight things
00:46:31.320 like the
00:46:31.900 terrible
00:46:33.380 overpopulation
00:46:34.580 that you see
00:46:35.120 in some
00:46:35.480 kind of
00:46:35.800 horrifying
00:46:36.240 city 1.00
00:46:36.700 like Mexico
00:46:37.380 City
00:46:37.760 or San
00:46:38.200 Paolo
00:46:38.600 or something
00:46:39.100 you know
00:46:40.360 we want
00:46:41.120 quality over
00:46:42.240 quantity
00:46:42.660 we want
00:46:43.040 to live
00:46:43.340 in a
00:46:43.600 beautiful
00:46:44.020 earth
00:46:45.100 so what
00:46:46.260 are some
00:46:46.540 of your
00:46:46.760 thoughts
00:46:47.100 on that
00:46:47.760 idea
00:46:48.100 yes
00:46:49.400 I think
00:46:49.740 that's
00:46:49.980 mirrored in
00:46:50.500 green ideas
00:46:51.280 itself
00:46:51.880 because you
00:46:52.500 have this
00:46:52.860 idea
00:46:53.240 green ideas
00:46:54.500 are not
00:46:54.820 really part
00:46:55.400 of the
00:46:55.640 left right
00:46:56.040 spectrum
00:46:56.540 but they
00:46:57.240 cut across
00:46:58.280 it in
00:46:58.900 various
00:46:59.420 respects
00:47:00.000 green ideas
00:47:01.500 are also
00:47:01.840 circular
00:47:02.420 because there's
00:47:03.460 a sort of
00:47:03.840 light green
00:47:04.780 outer circle
00:47:05.840 and a dark
00:47:06.960 or deep
00:47:07.520 green as it's
00:47:08.320 called
00:47:08.640 inner circle
00:47:09.580 and the deep
00:47:10.720 green ideas
00:47:11.660 are very
00:47:12.020 interesting
00:47:12.640 even
00:47:13.560 misanthropic
00:47:14.900 to a point
00:47:15.760 with doctrines
00:47:17.060 like Gaia
00:47:17.840 and so on
00:47:19.160 that see
00:47:19.660 humankind
00:47:20.220 as a sort
00:47:21.160 of exocrescence
00:47:22.060 upon the
00:47:22.560 earth
00:47:22.920 and the
00:47:23.640 earth only
00:47:24.200 as value
00:47:24.800 this is part
00:47:25.880 of the
00:47:26.120 tendency
00:47:26.440 all ideas
00:47:27.200 have to
00:47:27.880 maximise
00:47:28.500 their own
00:47:28.880 extremism
00:47:29.600 and adopt
00:47:30.680 at the
00:47:30.960 margin
00:47:31.500 a fundamentalism
00:47:32.920 of their
00:47:33.240 own
00:47:33.460 coinage
00:47:34.100 nevertheless
00:47:34.920 certain
00:47:35.820 more moderate
00:47:36.540 deep green
00:47:37.200 ideas
00:47:37.880 are deeply
00:47:39.420 susceptible
00:47:40.000 to a
00:47:40.760 right wing
00:47:41.200 coinage
00:47:41.900 and
00:47:43.080 the
00:47:44.500 conservation
00:47:45.060 of all
00:47:46.040 forms of
00:47:46.520 natural
00:47:46.880 beauty
00:47:47.420 extreme
00:47:48.480 forms of
00:47:49.160 localism
00:47:49.980 forms of
00:47:51.640 animal
00:47:52.100 husbandry
00:47:52.940 that are
00:47:54.140 linked to
00:47:54.880 preservation
00:47:55.680 of animal
00:47:56.360 species
00:47:56.840 and biodiversity
00:47:57.960 but are not
00:47:59.620 linked to
00:48:00.060 doctrines of
00:48:00.640 rights
00:48:01.260 and animal
00:48:02.360 rights or
00:48:02.900 animal
00:48:03.140 liberation
00:48:03.740 but draw on
00:48:05.140 a similar
00:48:05.600 metaphysic
00:48:06.660 that ends
00:48:07.540 in a different
00:48:08.040 place because
00:48:08.780 it begins
00:48:09.320 in one
00:48:09.800 you see
00:48:11.740 this very
00:48:12.120 much with
00:48:12.600 the split
00:48:13.060 say in
00:48:13.560 Britain
00:48:13.860 between
00:48:14.440 the sort
00:48:16.020 of
00:48:16.400 anarchist
00:48:17.360 group like
00:48:17.920 the animal
00:48:18.300 liberation
00:48:18.800 front
00:48:19.280 and a
00:48:20.620 conservationist
00:48:21.660 group like
00:48:22.400 the Royal
00:48:22.760 Society for
00:48:23.360 the protection
00:48:23.800 of cruelty
00:48:24.260 to animals
00:48:24.940 the two sort
00:48:26.840 of overlap
00:48:27.500 in terms of
00:48:28.060 some of their
00:48:28.480 coteries
00:48:29.140 but ideologically
00:48:30.400 they're very much
00:48:31.320 at variance
00:48:32.020 because the
00:48:32.520 one is
00:48:32.900 conservative
00:48:33.500 and small
00:48:35.140 c
00:48:35.600 and ameliorative
00:48:37.120 and piece
00:48:39.120 by piece
00:48:39.980 and localist
00:48:42.220 whereas the
00:48:43.200 other
00:48:43.560 wishes to
00:48:44.740 extend the
00:48:45.760 universal
00:48:46.400 adoption of
00:48:46.980 human rights
00:48:47.620 to animal
00:48:48.180 species
00:48:48.680 and has
00:48:49.760 developed the
00:48:50.320 concept of
00:48:50.940 animal racism
00:48:51.740 of course
00:48:52.300 namely
00:48:52.660 speciesism
00:48:53.500 all of which
00:48:54.560 is a
00:48:54.880 outgrowth
00:48:55.960 of the
00:48:56.920 politics
00:48:57.520 of human
00:48:58.300 rights
00:48:58.880 but if
00:49:01.160 one
00:49:01.420 assumes
00:49:01.900 the
00:49:02.140 politics
00:49:02.600 of human
00:49:03.060 rights
00:49:03.540 in a
00:49:04.520 grandstanding
00:49:05.460 and universalist
00:49:06.440 way
00:49:06.800 and sees
00:49:07.980 human identity
00:49:08.820 and glory
00:49:10.500 in very much
00:49:11.880 an individual
00:49:12.540 or a
00:49:13.000 localized
00:49:13.700 manner
00:49:14.720 then
00:49:15.940 deep green
00:49:17.660 and ecological
00:49:18.500 ideas
00:49:19.260 have a lot
00:49:19.780 to say
00:49:20.280 to all
00:49:20.760 forms of
00:49:21.240 conservatism
00:49:22.080 that wish
00:49:22.920 to preserve
00:49:23.600 and restore
00:49:24.400 as against
00:49:25.500 that which
00:49:25.960 is transitory
00:49:26.920 and which
00:49:27.680 is to upend
00:49:28.700 and is
00:49:29.520 purely
00:49:29.840 and only
00:49:30.400 concerned
00:49:30.940 with human
00:49:31.440 life
00:49:31.880 to the
00:49:32.600 detriment
00:49:32.920 of the
00:49:33.420 ecology
00:49:33.800 without which
00:49:34.480 mankind
00:49:34.800 couldn't
00:49:35.320 subsist
00:49:35.920 absolutely
00:49:37.200 you know
00:49:37.640 I mentioned
00:49:38.340 this before
00:49:39.240 there's a
00:49:40.040 very useful
00:49:41.160 biography
00:49:42.420 of
00:49:43.360 Madison
00:49:44.800 Grant
00:49:45.280 and it's
00:49:45.980 by a man
00:49:46.400 named
00:49:46.640 Spiro
00:49:47.380 and
00:49:48.380 although
00:49:49.480 he seems
00:49:50.300 to be a
00:49:50.720 left liberal
00:49:51.280 of some
00:49:51.620 kind
00:49:52.020 he clearly
00:49:53.380 wants to
00:49:54.020 get it
00:49:54.420 right
00:49:54.780 and that's
00:49:56.520 certainly
00:49:56.760 admirable
00:49:57.200 he offers
00:49:58.260 a very
00:49:58.660 useful
00:49:59.100 and rich
00:49:59.980 autobiography
00:50:00.940 of Grant
00:50:01.400 which has
00:50:03.420 really influenced
00:50:04.800 my interest
00:50:06.700 in Grant
00:50:07.540 and one
00:50:08.820 of his
00:50:09.080 major themes
00:50:09.840 is that
00:50:10.580 you know
00:50:12.520 if you
00:50:12.960 tell someone
00:50:14.260 that Grant
00:50:15.320 is an early
00:50:16.480 environmentalist
00:50:17.400 they'll usually
00:50:18.020 bring a smile
00:50:18.860 to their face
00:50:19.600 and if you
00:50:20.260 tell someone
00:50:20.740 that he was
00:50:21.120 also an early
00:50:21.780 eugenicist
00:50:22.560 that will
00:50:23.480 usually inspire
00:50:24.400 shock
00:50:25.000 and horror
00:50:25.620 but as
00:50:26.700 Spiro
00:50:26.880 points out
00:50:27.420 there was
00:50:27.700 no contradiction
00:50:28.520 in Grant's
00:50:29.520 mind between
00:50:30.360 saving the
00:50:31.140 Redwoods
00:50:31.700 and saving
00:50:32.640 the white
00:50:33.100 race
00:50:33.520 that those
00:50:34.660 were part
00:50:35.280 of the same
00:50:35.760 movement
00:50:36.160 so as I
00:50:37.360 mentioned before
00:50:37.900 I think we
00:50:38.660 are uniquely
00:50:40.100 suited
00:50:40.640 to
00:50:42.060 generating
00:50:44.360 a kind of
00:50:44.780 renaissance
00:50:45.340 of green
00:50:46.900 or naturalism
00:50:48.500 or environmentalist
00:50:51.120 politics
00:50:51.600 so Jonathan
00:50:52.600 let's just
00:50:53.200 put a
00:50:53.620 bookmark
00:50:54.160 in the
00:50:54.420 conversation
00:50:55.000 right there
00:50:55.980 and I
00:50:56.700 would love
00:50:57.140 to return
00:50:58.120 to these
00:50:58.780 ideas
00:50:59.300 in the
00:50:59.720 near future
00:51:00.260 and I
00:51:00.700 look forward
00:51:01.380 to speaking
00:51:01.780 to you
00:51:02.040 soon
00:51:02.280 yes
00:51:03.600 thanks very
00:51:04.080 much
00:51:04.340 all the
00:51:04.640 day
00:51:04.900 bye for now
00:51:21.600 bye for now