RadixJournal - Bowden! - 14 - The E Word

00:00:00.000 Welcome to Vanguard, a podcast of radical traditionalism.

00:00:24.580 Here's your host, Richard Spencer.

00:00:27.380 Hello, everyone, and welcome back to Vanguard, and welcome back as well, Jonathan Bowden.

00:00:33.380 Yes, hello. Nice to be here.

00:00:35.640 Very good. Jonathan, today we're going to talk about eugenics, Madison Grant, Lothrop Stoddard,

00:00:43.780 and the whole constellation of ideas and thinkers surrounding that subject.

00:00:51.080 And before we jump into the conversation, I think it's worth mentioning this.

00:00:57.960 We certainly live in an age of partisan vitriol and left-right battles,

00:01:05.040 but some of the things that really interest me are not those places where the left and the mainstream left and right disagree with one another,

00:01:14.080 but where they are in total agreement, where they walk lockstep.

00:01:18.880 And one of those things is the denunciation of eugenics as the most evil movement, or at least one of them, of the past 200 years.

00:01:35.580 And it's certainly also quite often associated with that other most evil movement of fascism or national socialism.

00:01:46.440 And that it's both, I think all of them are in agreement that it is both a pseudoscience,

00:01:51.780 but then it's also in some ways all too effective and something we need to resist.

00:01:57.040 So it didn't work, but then it was all too effective at the same time, usually in some of these irrational critiques they have of it.

00:02:06.560 And, you know, this is a fascinating opinion because this is something that has changed dramatically over the past century.

00:02:17.600 It's hard to find another opinion where you have a 180-degree shift in such a fairly short amount of time.

00:02:28.460 It's almost as if the Western world converted to Islam and began denouncing Christianity and secularism overnight. 0.74

00:02:37.500 Perhaps not that dramatic, but you see my point.

00:02:40.400 Certainly something like the National Socialist Regime in Germany did have eugenics programs.

00:02:47.680 They were not actually as pronounced as some might believe.

00:02:50.940 They actually modeled a lot of those programs on the eugenics programs found in Sweden and in the state of California.

00:02:57.740 California is probably the ultimate model.

00:03:00.940 You had eugenics being endorsed by university presidents.

00:03:05.820 That is, it was very much part of the elite.

00:03:07.920 They thought this was a good thing.

00:03:10.740 And it was also part of the progressive elite.

00:03:13.240 Eugenics was not a reactionary opinion.

00:03:15.740 It was something that was opposed by the, say, old-time religion folks or whom you might call reactionaries.

00:03:25.080 It was something that might even be on the left in certain contexts.

00:03:30.060 Certainly with someone like Lothrop Stoddard, whom we're going to speak about a little bit later,

00:03:34.520 it was a position held by someone who openly thought of himself as a progressive and as a modernist.

00:03:42.240 And it also had some popular appeal.

00:03:45.880 Actually, in a talk I gave not too long ago at the H.L. Mencken Club, I showed some pictures.

00:03:53.120 They were actually taken by a very good book, a biography of Lothrop Stoddard,

00:03:56.780 which is written by a left liberal who doesn't like Stoddard very much but recognizes his importance.

00:04:03.860 But these pictures were of eugenics buildings at the State Fair.

00:04:08.900 And I believe the one, a famous one, is from the Kansas State Fair.

00:04:12.520 And they would have competition for the fittest family.

00:04:15.320 And what they wanted to see was a good genotype, that is a healthy family with all boys and girls looking strong and smart

00:04:23.880 and good-looking parents and things like this.

00:04:27.560 So eugenics really had a positive value in people's lives. 0.99

00:04:33.240 It was something that meant that they were healthy and good and normal and people of quality.

00:04:39.980 And obviously this has gone through a total reversal.

00:04:44.000 Well, Jonathan, just to kind of, I think we should talk more about all these things in detail.

00:04:50.840 But maybe you could pick up on that basic history of eugenics that I've just outlined.

00:04:59.380 That something that was hegemonic has become unspeakable just over the course of 100 years. 0.78

00:05:06.980 Something that was endorsed by presidents and now is associated with crazed lunatics.

00:05:12.360 Maybe just talk a little bit about that and talk maybe a little bit about why that happened.

00:05:19.080 Do you think it was just the legacy of the Second World War or was there something more involved?

00:05:25.920 So why don't you just pick up on that, this, let's say, our consciousness of eugenics in the 20th century.

00:05:32.440 Yes, I think what we have here is the acceptance of and then the rejection of one and the other.

00:05:40.560 The notion that biology impinges upon social matters to a very considerable degree.

00:05:46.300 From about sort of 1860, 1870 through to the 1940s, you had a very pronounced view in all sorts of countries,

00:05:53.860 particularly countries like Australia, Canada, New Zealand, Sweden, Denmark, Switzerland, and elsewhere.

00:06:01.260 Countries that you don't often associate with these sorts of ideas.

00:06:04.760 But eugenics ideas were very pronounced in the politics in these societies and amongst academic and clinical elites.

00:06:11.320 It was essentially, in some ways, a progressive biologism.

00:06:17.060 It was the belief that you could actually act upon man and upon the circumstances of lived anthropology,

00:06:22.360 as contemporaneously understood, and you could improve the human lot,

00:06:27.140 just as you could act on the social and economic sphere from a center-left perspective to improve mankind's lot.

00:06:33.460 You could actually, and from an interventionist conservative perspective as well,

00:06:38.060 you could also improve man's lot biologically.

00:06:41.560 How this was to be done was the subject for, you know, sort of maximal debate.

00:06:46.680 But the idea that if you bred the strongest children and the tallest children and the fairest children

00:06:53.220 and the most intellectually precocious children, who also had pronounced athletic abilities,

00:06:59.880 that you would actually begin to create more wholesome human beings,

00:07:05.160 better families, and better communities, and better societies,

00:07:09.480 that sort of viewpoint would have been regarded as athletic in the mid-1930s.

00:07:18.420 And it would have been shared by left-wing liberals, some socialists,

00:07:23.960 many sort of active and latte-faire libertarians and old liberals,

00:07:32.660 many new liberals, many conservatives of all sorts.

00:07:36.360 The only people who would really oppose it were people who were very much linked

00:07:40.960 to certain forms of biblical Christianity,

00:07:43.860 because, of course, these ideas are inevitably linked to notions of biological health

00:07:49.700 and reproduction, what would later be cast by feminism, 1.00

00:07:53.760 later in the century, second-wave feminism, as reproductive rights, 1.00

00:07:58.220 but then was looked at as reproduction for health and for eugenic health at that. 0.90

00:08:04.420 And this meant that contraception and abortion, 0.97

00:08:08.340 abortion as a form of contraception, particularly in relation to life,

00:08:11.980 which was considered in some respects unworthy or inferior in one category or another,

00:08:18.180 would definitely come into play.

00:08:20.740 And Christian moral concerns about that aspect of eugenics was very pronounced.

00:08:26.560 However, probably a large number of evangelicals shared semi-eugenic ideas,

00:08:33.120 because racial and national ideas were so much more conservative during this epoch

00:08:38.700 and were so much more hegemonic,

00:08:41.900 that it meant that the amount of opposition that eugenics got was relatively small

00:08:47.140 in comparison to the almost universal odium in which it's held at the present time.

00:08:54.160 Let me jump in on that, actually.

00:08:57.000 You know, one of the groups that loathes eugenics at the moment is the evangelical Christians,

00:09:03.580 but it's worth mentioning that there were eugenic laws in the state of North Carolina,

00:09:09.360 for instance, up until the 1970s.

00:09:12.820 And the state sterilized a tremendous amount of people, most of them black,

00:09:19.140 you know, which it considered unfit for bearing children. 0.61

00:09:24.800 So there was a kind of old-time religious, you know, repulsion from eugenics as modernists,

00:09:32.520 and that kind of makes sense.

00:09:33.600 But just to back up your point, it was something that was accepted

00:09:39.040 by the large majority of Protestants in the South.

00:09:45.420 Yes, the sterilization of the unfit, which was carried out outright across the Western world,

00:09:50.960 until a particular generation of natural scientists died out

00:09:54.980 in the terms of the social application of biological ideas in the 1970s.

00:10:00.840 Really, what you have is you have a generation that accepts these ideas

00:10:06.440 in the 30s and 40s when they are young

00:10:10.600 and carries them out in orphanages and halfway houses

00:10:15.260 and children's homes and clinics for the elderly and the infirm

00:10:22.800 and mental hospitals and way stations for the mentally subnormal 0.73

00:10:28.460 and so on and so forth,

00:10:31.480 and carries these functions out right across the 50s, 60s, and into the 70s.

00:10:37.120 And that generation then dies out, 0.98

00:10:40.000 and the scientists who follow them don't have the same ideas

00:10:43.480 because they've been exposed to a different and a contrary mindset

00:10:47.040 from 1945-46 onwards.

00:10:50.660 So you have a reversal of what went on,

00:10:55.060 and at times an unstated reversal,

00:10:57.420 whereby the policies just change,

00:10:59.860 and sterilization of people with grossly deformed and inadequate IQs, for example, 1.00

00:11:07.260 to prevent them from breeding people who might be described as idiots. 1.00

00:11:13.480 In future sort of percussive generations, 0.99

00:11:17.040 that came to an end in most Western countries around the same time in the mid-1970s.

00:11:24.340 And I think it came to an end because generationally,

00:11:27.360 the scientists who'd imbibed eugenic ideas

00:11:30.580 had essentially passed through the system and were retiring

00:11:34.440 and being replaced by a cohort that didn't share the same notions.

00:11:38.380 I also think it's important to realize that essentially what's happened

00:11:42.360 is that two concepts have been conflated into one another

00:11:45.580 in order to summarily dispatch both.

00:11:49.040 And this is the idea of eugenics as against dysgenics. 0.84

00:11:53.380 And dysgenics, which is, if you like, the negative side of eugenics, 0.81

00:11:58.440 whereby you act so as to prevent harm,

00:12:00.800 but you also act to, in some senses, prevent life through abortion

00:12:07.940 or through selective contraceptive use or through sterilization,

00:12:12.740 the proactive and yet sort of SNP-oriented and negative side of eugenics

00:12:19.080 is its really controversial feature.

00:12:21.040 Sure.

00:12:21.360 The wholesome side, the building people up,

00:12:25.280 the tonics for the brave sort of side

00:12:28.960 is one which only the most niggardly and sort of nihilistic 0.99

00:12:34.620 and sordid left-winger would be opposed to

00:12:37.380 because they find nauseous the idea of happy, athletic,

00:12:42.640 intellectually precocious families beaming for the camera

00:12:45.780 in an Osmonds-like way.

00:12:47.540 You know, it fills women with nausea and disgust. 1.00

00:12:49.980 But the number of people who are filled with nausea and disgust

00:12:53.220 for such sort of pangent healthy normality

00:12:56.160 are relatively few and far between. 0.80

00:12:59.080 And many of them are neurotic

00:13:00.300 and sort of outsider-in in their orientation.

00:13:05.820 So that sort of eugenics has been deconstructed

00:13:11.280 so that the term eugenics is no longer used

00:13:13.600 and it's just a symbol of healthiness.

00:13:17.020 Although there are radical Christians 0.71

00:13:19.060 of a certain specialization,

00:13:21.820 dislike even that.

00:13:23.400 I remember a Christian woman of my acquaintance

00:13:25.440 a long time ago, a theorist in Christianity,

00:13:28.880 Catholic variants of which have seen,

00:13:32.440 expected to me at great length

00:13:34.880 about how she was appalled by pictures of athletes

00:13:37.480 in hospital wards for the sick.

00:13:40.080 She said it's monstrously eugenic having these pictures

00:13:43.720 of these healthy goddess and god-type individuals,

00:13:48.060 reminding everyone who's palsied and lame and sick 1.00

00:13:51.760 and broken down what they're not.

00:13:55.160 And it's essentially a form of conceptually beating them

00:13:57.540 over the head with a trunction 0.56

00:13:58.840 as they're trying to get a little bit better

00:14:03.020 in their own terms.

00:14:04.060 And these were just pictures of health.

00:14:06.380 So it shows you how far the sort of negative reaction

00:14:11.520 to even the idea of healthiness as a presumed good

00:14:15.400 has worked in this society.

00:14:18.800 Illness is dealt with as a sort of something

00:14:22.640 to be alleviated.

00:14:24.420 But the corollary that you actually obtain health

00:14:27.500 when you're not ill

00:14:28.440 is something which has been rather left out of the equation.

00:14:31.520 Doctors who too radically value health

00:14:34.380 fall under a certain cloud

00:14:36.540 and under a certain moral suspicion these days

00:14:39.440 that their viewpoint tends in a sort of semi-eugenic direction.

00:14:44.120 So certainly there's been an incredible reversal.

00:14:47.420 But when most people say eugenics,

00:14:49.240 the thing that they're really talking about

00:14:50.680 is the negative side of eugenics,

00:14:52.880 the sort of parsimonious,

00:14:56.380 sort of quote-unquote getting rid of the inferior

00:15:00.660 dimension to it,

00:15:03.580 is what people really get riled against.

00:15:06.680 The more positive agenda

00:15:07.980 would probably have a sullen acquiescence

00:15:09.940 on behalf of most people

00:15:11.940 who are not sold on the idea

00:15:13.540 that healthiness is not necessarily

00:15:18.000 just next to godliness,

00:15:19.280 but two steps away from fascism.

00:15:20.980 Right.

00:15:21.760 And actually, it's worth pointing out

00:15:23.680 that many of the elite are pursuing eugenics.

00:15:28.140 I mean, they call it genetic therapy

00:15:30.320 or genetic counseling is another word.

00:15:34.360 And there are, you know,

00:15:35.620 I don't want to dwell on these things,

00:15:36.900 but they are in some ways pursuing negative eugenics

00:15:40.620 in the sense that they are certainly

00:15:43.180 much more willing to abort a child

00:15:46.920 with Down syndrome or so on.

00:15:49.500 And that, of course, can be discovered

00:15:51.860 in the womb.

00:15:53.940 And so, in some ways,

00:15:55.700 one could also suggest

00:15:57.240 that eugenics is still living on. 0.83

00:16:00.060 It's just you can't,

00:16:00.820 you simply can't use that name

00:16:02.560 because when you use that,

00:16:04.260 you know,

00:16:04.760 a swastika flag begins waving

00:16:07.720 in someone's mind.

00:16:08.680 I mean, it just seems like that,

00:16:09.780 you know, that is what it is.

00:16:11.300 But the actual practice seems to go on.

00:16:15.480 Of course, I mean,

00:16:16.320 it's worth pointing out,

00:16:17.300 I guess I want to talk a little bit.

00:16:19.760 I want to return actually

00:16:20.800 to your mentioning

00:16:22.460 of the academic side of this.

00:16:23.960 But before pointing out,

00:16:25.960 it's, I think I mentioned this

00:16:27.860 at the beginning of the program,

00:16:29.340 but Nazi Germany

00:16:31.760 did have certain eugenics programs.

00:16:33.820 They were not as unusual

00:16:36.120 as many people would have you believe.

00:16:39.180 And they weren't actually as pronounced

00:16:40.480 as someone would have you believe.

00:16:42.640 In some ways, they were rather

00:16:45.400 humdrum eugenics programs 0.87

00:16:47.100 when compared to

00:16:48.980 what was going on internationally.

00:16:51.320 And the, you know,

00:16:53.220 Hitler's attacks on, say,

00:16:54.960 the Jewish people

00:16:56.100 and what's come to be known

00:16:58.880 as the Holocaust,

00:17:00.020 that was obviously not

00:17:01.100 a eugenic program.

00:17:02.800 I mean, Hitler obviously was, 0.78

00:17:06.760 had very strong negative feelings

00:17:10.240 against the Jews,

00:17:10.980 and he thought that they were 0.95

00:17:12.060 a very dangerous enemy,

00:17:14.020 but he did not think 1.00

00:17:15.080 that they were stupid morons 1.00

00:17:17.360 or something. 1.00

00:17:17.940 It was just, you know,

00:17:18.940 again, when you conflate eugenics

00:17:21.220 and the Holocaust

00:17:22.800 or all of the, you know,

00:17:24.940 use of concentration camps

00:17:26.140 and so on and so forth

00:17:26.860 in the Second World War,

00:17:27.720 you're really mixing apples and oranges.

00:17:29.780 They're just not the same thing.

00:17:32.240 But again, that is the perception

00:17:33.880 and that is one,

00:17:34.720 that is the central reason

00:17:35.760 why eugenics is a kind of non-starter

00:17:39.360 in our contemporary world

00:17:41.240 or it kind of has a sub-rosa existence

00:17:44.060 or something like that.

00:17:45.500 Let me just ask you

00:17:47.080 a real quick question

00:17:47.900 because you were talking

00:17:48.440 about the academic side

00:17:49.740 of this issue

00:17:50.520 and the fact that

00:17:52.100 so many of these researchers

00:17:54.500 who were quite predisposed

00:17:57.880 to Galton, Darwinism,

00:18:01.660 eugenics, that that switched. 0.92

00:18:03.520 Is that part of the so-called

00:18:06.020 Boasian revolution

00:18:08.220 in anthropology?

00:18:10.020 And what I mean by that

00:18:10.840 is, of course, Franz Boas,

00:18:12.700 he was a sworn enemy

00:18:17.020 of Madison Grand.

00:18:18.100 In many ways,

00:18:18.980 this is actually one of the things

00:18:20.180 that some of us have forgotten

00:18:23.060 is that when Franz was talking,

00:18:26.180 when Boas, excuse me, 0.51

00:18:27.080 was talking about

00:18:28.140 things like, you know,

00:18:31.060 immigrants' head,

00:18:32.600 there's no correlation

00:18:34.240 or connection

00:18:35.240 between head shape

00:18:36.540 or head size

00:18:37.560 and brain size

00:18:38.260 and intelligence.

00:18:39.300 He would even say things

00:18:40.800 that are obviously false

00:18:42.220 in which he actually

00:18:43.120 literally fabricated his data

00:18:45.220 claiming that

00:18:45.940 an immigrant's head 1.00

00:18:47.540 would change shape

00:18:48.680 when it came to America.

00:18:50.440 You know,

00:18:50.920 it's almost this assimilation

00:18:52.460 or the melting pot

00:18:54.140 would change

00:18:54.900 the physics

00:18:57.220 kind of thing.

00:18:58.560 It's a totally

00:18:59.600 nonsensical notion.

00:19:01.360 But he was,

00:19:02.060 all of those

00:19:02.960 papers that he wrote

00:19:05.520 were all directed

00:19:07.180 against Grant

00:19:08.460 and eugenics.

00:19:09.300 That was the target.

00:19:10.560 And sometimes

00:19:10.960 that's forgotten

00:19:11.760 because Boas' 0.56

00:19:13.780 revolution

00:19:14.360 in anthropology

00:19:15.780 and genetics

00:19:16.320 has been so

00:19:17.380 profound

00:19:19.560 and broad

00:19:20.500 that you forget

00:19:21.640 that he was actually

00:19:22.380 reacting against

00:19:23.540 another force

00:19:24.200 and that was Grant

00:19:25.180 and eugenics

00:19:25.820 who again

00:19:27.180 were a hegemonic.

00:19:28.600 But Jonathan,

00:19:29.080 do you think,

00:19:29.500 is that what you were

00:19:30.180 getting to

00:19:30.700 when you were talking

00:19:31.240 about before

00:19:31.700 about the academic

00:19:32.700 shift amongst

00:19:34.060 researchers

00:19:34.720 that in some ways

00:19:36.800 when you had

00:19:37.780 baby boomers 0.93

00:19:38.720 and our generation

00:19:40.920 you essentially

00:19:42.980 were having people

00:19:43.680 who were influenced

00:19:45.000 by Boasian

00:19:45.860 anthropology

00:19:46.580 they did not

00:19:48.360 think in terms

00:19:49.380 of Galton

00:19:51.060 and say

00:19:51.520 let's call it

00:19:52.320 classical Darwinism

00:19:53.600 and that really

00:19:55.140 it's kind of

00:19:55.860 those people

00:19:57.200 where they lost

00:19:59.440 the battle

00:20:00.180 and this is the reason

00:20:02.240 why eugenics 0.99

00:20:03.440 kind of vanished

00:20:04.380 after the Second World War.

00:20:07.080 Yes.

00:20:08.200 I do think

00:20:09.160 it happened

00:20:09.520 in a certain context

00:20:10.620 though.

00:20:11.200 I think people

00:20:12.400 who supported eugenics 0.89

00:20:13.980 found that

00:20:14.480 unless they found

00:20:15.160 a different vocabulary

00:20:16.140 for it

00:20:16.780 their support

00:20:17.860 couldn't be

00:20:18.680 sustained

00:20:19.700 in polite society.

00:20:21.740 Therefore

00:20:22.220 they either found

00:20:24.500 arcane

00:20:25.120 in differentiated

00:20:26.100 terminology

00:20:26.840 or

00:20:28.600 they gave up

00:20:29.740 on it completely

00:20:30.540 and when you have

00:20:31.820 an idea

00:20:32.300 that time has come

00:20:33.820 a vanguard

00:20:34.720 will push

00:20:35.340 for a contrary system

00:20:36.440 and if there's nothing

00:20:37.720 to push back

00:20:38.420 against them

00:20:39.160 they will take

00:20:40.060 the high ground

00:20:40.820 and they will take over

00:20:41.960 the theoretical discourse

00:20:43.560 of the society

00:20:44.380 and you need

00:20:45.320 a very small number

00:20:46.060 of people

00:20:46.500 to be singing

00:20:47.400 from the same hymn sheet

00:20:48.540 in order to affect that.

00:20:50.360 So you just need

00:20:51.420 the anthropology societies

00:20:52.800 and the anthropological journals

00:20:54.500 and the anthropology academic

00:20:56.360 departments

00:20:56.940 of the United States

00:20:58.240 to tack one way

00:20:59.800 or to lopsidedly

00:21:01.440 to tack one way

00:21:02.700 decisively

00:21:03.400 for there to be

00:21:04.560 a complete re-routing

00:21:05.740 and for

00:21:07.200 one set of theories

00:21:08.540 to be replaced

00:21:09.380 by another one.

00:21:10.280 but it only happened

00:21:11.680 because the soil

00:21:13.080 was so fertile

00:21:14.020 because the other discourse

00:21:16.040 had drained away

00:21:16.920 to nothingness

00:21:17.720 and even those

00:21:18.700 who were in favour

00:21:19.500 of it

00:21:19.980 found themselves

00:21:21.140 unable to articulate it

00:21:22.800 given the moral climate

00:21:24.660 post-1945.

00:21:26.220 So

00:21:27.620 Boaz and his friends

00:21:30.000 seized the hour

00:21:30.920 basically

00:21:31.480 and introduced

00:21:33.340 forms of social discourse

00:21:35.860 because that's what it was

00:21:37.100 which explained everything

00:21:38.560 in terms of the social

00:21:39.660 ramifications of man

00:21:40.960 and this very much

00:21:42.340 of course

00:21:42.720 fed in indirectly

00:21:43.820 to the new left

00:21:45.200 of the 1960s

00:21:46.380 and 70s

00:21:47.160 which is

00:21:48.260 quite a break

00:21:49.540 from the old left

00:21:50.480 in many ways

00:21:51.280 which would accept

00:21:52.560 quite a lot of prior

00:21:53.640 and inheritable characteristics

00:21:55.240 even biological ones

00:21:57.260 Marx and so on

00:21:59.200 never thought

00:21:59.720 that man could be changed

00:22:00.720 biologically

00:22:01.340 at his primary nature

00:22:02.720 the only change

00:22:03.760 that could be brought about

00:22:04.620 was socio-economic

00:22:05.580 which could be decisive

00:22:07.880 but was rudimentary

00:22:09.880 in relation to man's

00:22:10.780 fundamental being

00:22:11.860 and Lenin as well

00:22:13.180 never thought

00:22:13.740 that man was capable

00:22:14.760 of change

00:22:15.320 at the biological level

00:22:16.480 some people 1.00

00:22:17.380 would always be born stupid 1.00

00:22:18.700 others would be born brilliant 1.00

00:22:20.160 some could approximate

00:22:22.320 to one or the other

00:22:23.520 by dint of some application

00:22:26.060 or its absence

00:22:26.940 people would be born sick

00:22:28.640 or rattled with disease

00:22:29.980 people would be born healthy

00:22:32.100 people would be born 0.69

00:22:33.740 with mental diseases

00:22:34.700 and disabilities

00:22:35.540 and

00:22:36.820 with the exception

00:22:38.700 of socialised medical concern

00:22:40.660 there was not too much

00:22:41.860 that could be done

00:22:42.380 about that

00:22:43.080 whereas the new left

00:22:44.420 believe that everyone

00:22:45.540 is a tabula rasa

00:22:46.660 and that everyone

00:22:48.600 can make it up

00:22:49.620 as they go along

00:22:50.540 and that although

00:22:51.620 there are certain things

00:22:52.840 which of course

00:22:53.500 impinge

00:22:54.260 such as extreme illness

00:22:56.140 and that sort of thing

00:22:57.180 from the biological realm

00:22:58.840 that's restricted

00:22:59.860 very much just

00:23:00.700 to the narrow issue

00:23:01.640 of personal health

00:23:02.680 other than that

00:23:04.120 every issue

00:23:05.300 is explicable

00:23:06.840 in terms of

00:23:08.060 social engineering

00:23:09.040 and purely

00:23:10.580 social engineering

00:23:11.640 but not

00:23:12.680 socio-biological

00:23:13.680 engineering

00:23:14.380 that was

00:23:15.340 rendered

00:23:16.040 out of

00:23:16.600 account

00:23:17.500 so progressivism

00:23:19.300 snips off

00:23:20.180 that element

00:23:21.180 of it

00:23:21.480 that was biological

00:23:22.340 in the past

00:23:23.260 and that's why

00:23:24.260 eugenics 0.78

00:23:24.720 were gotten rid of

00:23:25.660 yes

00:23:26.580 and I want to

00:23:28.160 return

00:23:28.740 to this

00:23:30.260 theme

00:23:30.820 that I was talking

00:23:31.340 about before

00:23:31.940 in terms of

00:23:32.720 Grant

00:23:33.100 and this

00:23:34.980 former

00:23:36.100 hegemonic discourse

00:23:37.320 and I think

00:23:38.200 it's worth

00:23:38.800 pointing out

00:23:40.200 a little bit

00:23:41.120 about

00:23:41.620 Madison Grant

00:23:43.580 the man

00:23:44.520 because I think

00:23:46.140 if you really

00:23:46.580 look at his story

00:23:47.900 you see

00:23:49.020 in a nutshell

00:23:51.340 as it were

00:23:52.860 the story

00:23:53.560 of the

00:23:54.020 dispossession

00:23:54.960 of the

00:23:55.780 wasp elite

00:23:56.800 over the course

00:23:58.500 of the 20th century

00:23:59.460 and

00:24:00.240 Grant was actually

00:24:02.260 he was a

00:24:02.980 a lawyer

00:24:04.260 by training

00:24:05.140 but he never

00:24:05.760 really practiced

00:24:06.960 he was

00:24:07.480 I guess he was

00:24:07.980 very similar

00:24:08.480 to Lothrop Stoddard

00:24:09.680 and to that degree

00:24:10.700 he also had a law degree

00:24:11.640 and also had a PhD

00:24:12.460 Stoddard did

00:24:13.260 but he

00:24:15.180 he was

00:24:16.380 immediately fascinated

00:24:17.220 by naturalism

00:24:18.320 and

00:24:18.920 he was actually

00:24:19.820 involved with people

00:24:20.880 like Theodore Roosevelt

00:24:22.240 and the

00:24:22.980 big game hunter

00:24:24.420 the Boone and Crockett

00:24:25.680 club

00:24:26.220 he was really

00:24:27.360 pioneering the whole

00:24:28.380 concept of

00:24:29.500 wildlife management

00:24:31.060 and conservation

00:24:31.820 he

00:24:33.060 was part of

00:24:34.400 the co-founder

00:24:34.960 of the Bronx Zoo

00:24:36.020 in 1899

00:24:37.640 I guess in his

00:24:38.360 native New York

00:24:39.240 they would actually

00:24:39.740 bring bison

00:24:40.500 into

00:24:40.980 New York City

00:24:42.700 things like this

00:24:43.880 he was

00:24:44.720 involved with

00:24:45.380 the American

00:24:45.700 Bison Society

00:24:46.720 there was actually

00:24:47.360 a

00:24:47.700 you know

00:24:50.020 there was some

00:24:51.060 statistics

00:24:51.920 that

00:24:52.560 before the society

00:24:54.320 got going

00:24:55.200 and the

00:24:55.680 bison were being

00:24:57.080 conserved

00:24:57.760 that there were

00:24:58.900 I can't remember

00:24:59.580 the exact statistic

00:25:00.320 but it was something

00:25:00.920 like less than

00:25:01.880 20 bison

00:25:02.940 were remaining

00:25:03.740 essentially

00:25:04.280 the

00:25:05.160 the bison

00:25:06.180 was obviously

00:25:07.260 a majestic

00:25:07.840 creature

00:25:08.300 but when it

00:25:09.060 entered the

00:25:09.880 world of

00:25:10.600 rifles

00:25:11.960 and you know

00:25:13.000 horseback

00:25:14.020 horse riding

00:25:15.800 men with

00:25:16.320 guns

00:25:17.000 it was a

00:25:18.120 big

00:25:18.440 you know

00:25:19.400 slab of

00:25:20.180 meat

00:25:20.560 as a target

00:25:21.340 and it was

00:25:21.900 being slaughtered

00:25:23.560 he 1.00

00:25:24.200 we might

00:25:25.280 we might

00:25:26.120 very well

00:25:26.580 not have

00:25:27.500 the bison

00:25:28.160 the American

00:25:28.680 buffalo

00:25:29.120 without someone

00:25:29.820 like Madison

00:25:30.300 Grant

00:25:30.620 he was part of

00:25:31.460 the co-founders

00:25:32.360 of Glacier

00:25:33.320 National Park

00:25:34.240 which I

00:25:35.940 am quite

00:25:36.400 lucky to

00:25:37.060 live about

00:25:37.680 a 45

00:25:39.000 minute drive

00:25:39.720 away from

00:25:40.360 but it

00:25:41.680 might be

00:25:42.460 second only

00:25:43.120 to Yellowstone

00:25:43.840 National Park

00:25:45.020 but maybe

00:25:46.760 even some

00:25:47.220 might rank

00:25:47.700 it higher

00:25:48.080 but it's

00:25:48.380 a truly

00:25:48.880 gorgeous

00:25:50.580 part of

00:25:52.340 the world

00:25:52.860 that includes

00:25:53.680 all sorts

00:25:55.500 of things

00:25:55.920 from mountain

00:25:56.400 peaks

00:25:56.880 to rivers

00:25:57.700 and lakes

00:25:58.480 and it's

00:25:59.840 truly

00:26:00.180 a miraculous

00:26:01.940 place

00:26:02.480 he was part of

00:26:03.000 the Save the

00:26:03.560 Redwoods League

00:26:04.480 Redwoods

00:26:05.560 of course

00:26:05.800 these massive

00:26:06.620 trees

00:26:07.360 mostly in

00:26:09.220 California

00:26:09.760 again

00:26:10.620 we

00:26:11.740 shouldn't

00:26:13.520 forget

00:26:13.980 what

00:26:14.820 still

00:26:15.500 exists

00:26:16.120 today

00:26:16.540 for us

00:26:17.080 to

00:26:17.400 appreciate

00:26:18.040 and

00:26:20.420 what

00:26:21.140 probably

00:26:21.600 wouldn't

00:26:21.980 exist

00:26:22.420 without

00:26:22.640 the work

00:26:23.200 of

00:26:23.560 Madison

00:26:24.260 Grant

00:26:24.640 and his

00:26:25.000 colleagues

00:26:25.580 this is

00:26:26.520 someone

00:26:26.700 who is

00:26:27.100 directly

00:26:27.600 involved

00:26:28.340 with

00:26:28.820 the

00:26:29.240 1924

00:26:31.320 or excuse

00:26:32.220 me

00:26:32.380 1927

00:26:33.220 Immigration

00:26:33.860 Restriction

00:26:35.200 Act

00:26:35.500 he was

00:26:36.100 part of

00:26:36.320 the

00:26:36.400 American

00:26:36.720 Defense

00:26:37.160 Society

00:26:37.620 and the

00:26:37.820 American

00:26:38.020 Restriction

00:26:38.620 League

00:26:38.900 so he

00:26:39.240 was

00:26:39.400 certainly

00:26:41.100 not a

00:26:41.540 politician

00:26:42.000 or a

00:26:42.420 political

00:26:42.600 operative

00:26:43.120 but he

00:26:44.020 was the

00:26:44.780 intellectual

00:26:45.480 force

00:26:46.280 behind

00:26:46.760 these

00:26:47.300 major

00:26:48.420 initiatives

00:26:48.920 which

00:26:49.700 more or

00:26:51.140 less

00:26:51.420 cut off

00:26:52.740 immigration

00:26:53.240 to the

00:26:53.480 United

00:26:53.620 States

00:26:53.920 and I

00:26:54.160 think

00:26:54.280 did more

00:26:54.760 than that

00:26:55.220 because

00:26:56.000 it

00:26:56.640 made sure

00:26:57.740 that America

00:26:58.280 was actually

00:26:58.740 going to

00:26:58.960 return to

00:26:59.560 what Grant

00:27:00.120 thought of as

00:27:00.580 a Nordic

00:27:01.120 America

00:27:01.600 the America

00:27:02.160 even before

00:27:03.040 some of the

00:27:04.180 massive

00:27:04.520 Eastern European

00:27:05.500 and Southern

00:27:05.920 European

00:27:06.320 immigration

00:27:06.940 in the

00:27:08.140 second half

00:27:08.600 of the

00:27:08.780 19th century

00:27:09.520 so this

00:27:10.700 is a

00:27:11.120 this is a

00:27:11.680 man

00:27:11.940 he was

00:27:12.240 he was

00:27:12.500 part of

00:27:12.800 the elite

00:27:13.300 he was

00:27:13.680 he was

00:27:14.020 actually

00:27:14.240 a kind

00:27:15.060 of Brahmin

00:27:15.680 he was

00:27:16.240 actually

00:27:16.440 from New

00:27:16.760 York City

00:27:17.120 not Boston

00:27:17.740 but you

00:27:19.340 when you

00:27:20.120 look at

00:27:20.440 these people

00:27:20.940 now

00:27:21.440 you realize

00:27:22.420 that there

00:27:22.800 was this

00:27:23.200 entire

00:27:24.600 elite

00:27:25.400 wasp

00:27:26.160 class

00:27:26.700 that was

00:27:27.140 part of

00:27:28.220 even a

00:27:28.680 deeper

00:27:28.940 tradition

00:27:29.680 which might

00:27:30.120 have

00:27:30.200 included

00:27:30.540 the Adamses

00:27:31.640 and all

00:27:32.540 of these

00:27:32.860 people

00:27:33.160 but just

00:27:33.460 a totally

00:27:34.180 different

00:27:35.000 version

00:27:35.500 of the

00:27:35.860 American

00:27:36.220 right

00:27:36.620 than what

00:27:37.780 we have

00:27:38.220 today

00:27:38.700 and in

00:27:39.300 many ways

00:27:39.560 if you

00:27:39.740 think about

00:27:40.140 it

00:27:40.260 what we

00:27:40.520 have

00:27:40.660 today

00:27:40.940 the

00:27:41.120 kind

00:27:41.320 of

00:27:41.520 buckley-eyed

00:27:42.480 influence

00:27:42.940 right

00:27:43.280 is a

00:27:43.740 replacement

00:27:45.620 or a

00:27:46.400 perversion

00:27:47.620 of what

00:27:47.940 we had

00:27:48.340 so anyway

00:27:49.620 if you

00:27:50.160 think about

00:27:50.880 the history

00:27:51.700 of the

00:27:52.200 life of

00:27:52.620 Madison

00:27:52.920 Grant

00:27:53.200 you really

00:27:53.720 see this

00:27:54.280 other world

00:27:55.120 a kind

00:27:55.460 of alternative

00:27:56.040 reality

00:27:56.700 for what

00:27:57.620 American

00:27:58.040 conservatism

00:27:58.900 could be

00:28:00.180 but do you

00:28:01.080 have any

00:28:01.280 thoughts on

00:28:01.720 that

00:28:01.960 Jonathan

00:28:02.460 in terms

00:28:03.060 of

00:28:03.400 this

00:28:05.040 you know

00:28:05.540 maybe

00:28:05.820 maybe

00:28:06.340 America

00:28:06.900 before the

00:28:08.320 Second World

00:28:08.840 War

00:28:09.280 had a

00:28:11.320 chance

00:28:12.660 to

00:28:13.520 have a

00:28:14.820 different

00:28:15.120 path

00:28:15.680 in the

00:28:15.960 world

00:28:16.340 that if

00:28:16.940 people like

00:28:17.640 Madison

00:28:18.520 Grant

00:28:19.020 had been

00:28:19.940 the

00:28:20.440 intellectual

00:28:21.080 leaders

00:28:21.600 and they

00:28:21.980 had been

00:28:22.260 able to

00:28:22.640 influence

00:28:23.140 political

00:28:24.900 leaders

00:28:25.240 and they

00:28:25.540 were

00:28:25.860 influencing

00:28:26.360 political

00:28:26.760 leaders

00:28:27.040 you know

00:28:27.280 Calvin

00:28:27.600 Coolidge

00:28:28.180 was writing

00:28:29.000 articles

00:28:29.580 and how

00:28:30.120 America

00:28:31.000 shouldn't

00:28:31.340 become

00:28:31.700 a 0.80

00:28:31.920 waste

00:28:32.380 dump

00:28:32.840 for

00:28:33.220 the

00:28:33.500 degenerate

00:28:34.920 or something

00:28:35.160 he was

00:28:35.380 using

00:28:35.640 extremely

00:28:36.300 strong

00:28:37.460 language

00:28:37.940 to probably

00:28:38.280 shock

00:28:38.800 some 0.96

00:28:39.140 white

00:28:39.420 nationalists

00:28:40.180 or something

00:28:40.860 so you

00:28:42.380 know

00:28:42.500 but I

00:28:43.400 guess my

00:28:43.760 question is

00:28:44.340 do you

00:28:44.560 think that

00:28:45.040 there was

00:28:46.320 this other

00:28:46.860 path that

00:28:47.680 America

00:28:48.020 could have

00:28:48.360 taken

00:28:48.700 if people

00:28:50.060 like

00:28:50.600 Madison

00:28:51.220 Grant

00:28:51.680 had

00:28:52.100 prevailed

00:28:52.720 instead of

00:28:54.260 the types

00:28:55.080 of people

00:28:55.380 we have

00:28:55.720 today

00:28:56.060 yes very

00:28:58.240 much so

00:28:58.760 I think

00:28:59.240 the different

00:29:01.400 paths that

00:29:01.940 America could

00:29:02.500 have followed

00:29:03.020 are all

00:29:04.180 proportionate to

00:29:04.980 the issue of

00:29:05.500 isolationism

00:29:06.340 if America

00:29:07.880 could have

00:29:08.260 remained

00:29:08.580 isolated

00:29:09.200 from not

00:29:11.100 the rest of

00:29:11.520 the world

00:29:11.800 because that's

00:29:12.260 an impossibility

00:29:12.980 but isolated

00:29:14.360 from policy

00:29:15.240 involvement

00:29:15.880 with the rest

00:29:17.340 of the world

00:29:18.000 and military

00:29:18.640 intervention

00:29:19.200 in the way

00:29:20.720 that occurred

00:29:21.380 in the first

00:29:21.980 world war

00:29:22.520 after which

00:29:23.420 there was

00:29:23.640 an isolationist

00:29:24.380 phase of

00:29:24.940 course

00:29:25.300 when President

00:29:26.280 Wilson's

00:29:26.880 diktat was

00:29:27.500 overthrown

00:29:28.220 and there

00:29:28.920 was a

00:29:29.280 return to

00:29:29.840 an isolationist

00:29:30.680 posture

00:29:31.060 and then

00:29:32.340 the build up

00:29:33.480 to the second

00:29:34.020 war which

00:29:34.620 changed everything

00:29:35.500 and which

00:29:36.760 led to the

00:29:37.280 ascent to

00:29:37.800 globalism

00:29:38.440 as Stephen

00:29:38.940 Ambrose calls

00:29:40.540 it in his

00:29:41.520 famous book

00:29:42.160 about the

00:29:42.780 emergence of

00:29:43.520 an American

00:29:43.980 empire as

00:29:44.860 it were

00:29:45.380 and the

00:29:46.660 Korean war

00:29:47.400 and then the

00:29:47.860 war with the

00:29:48.380 communist blocs

00:29:49.320 and the

00:29:50.460 modern world

00:29:51.300 that we have

00:29:51.720 today

00:29:52.220 I think

00:29:53.220 the influence

00:29:54.900 that such

00:29:55.280 figures would

00:29:56.200 have had

00:29:56.800 was entirely

00:29:57.880 proportionate

00:29:58.800 to the

00:29:59.440 degree to

00:29:59.860 which America

00:30:00.440 remained a

00:30:01.320 republic

00:30:01.720 and not an

00:30:02.800 empire

00:30:03.280 to use

00:30:04.320 Buchanan's

00:30:05.680 phrase

00:30:06.100 and the

00:30:08.040 more imperial

00:30:09.000 America became 0.63

00:30:10.080 the more it

00:30:10.960 became enamored

00:30:11.780 of other

00:30:12.720 models

00:30:13.280 and the less

00:30:14.600 it became

00:30:15.080 enamored of a

00:30:16.060 nativist

00:30:16.600 American model

00:30:17.520 it's almost

00:30:18.740 inevitable

00:30:19.240 that

00:30:19.620 nakedism

00:30:20.180 would go

00:30:20.620 together

00:30:21.100 with the

00:30:22.000 desire to

00:30:22.520 keep America

00:30:23.120 isolate

00:30:23.640 and keep 0.50

00:30:24.540 America

00:30:24.940 out of

00:30:25.900 other

00:30:26.240 conflicts

00:30:26.900 and to

00:30:28.400 keep America

00:30:28.940 from drifting

00:30:30.160 towards global

00:30:31.080 policeman type

00:30:31.980 roles that

00:30:33.020 it's been

00:30:33.360 keen to

00:30:33.800 adopt

00:30:34.260 since the

00:30:35.540 mid-1940s

00:30:37.740 since the

00:30:38.140 attack on

00:30:38.500 Pearl Harbor

00:30:39.060 essentially

00:30:39.560 so I

00:30:41.460 think the

00:30:42.600 general point

00:30:43.340 about men

00:30:44.180 like Grant

00:30:44.800 is that they

00:30:45.760 were from

00:30:46.200 an era

00:30:46.680 where America

00:30:47.900 should have

00:30:48.400 decided its

00:30:49.080 own destiny

00:30:49.700 in its

00:30:50.120 own terms

00:30:50.980 where the

00:30:52.840 notion of

00:30:53.520 American

00:30:53.920 uniqueness

00:30:54.760 and preferentialism

00:30:56.700 and providentialism

00:30:57.940 which irritates

00:31:00.040 the hell out of

00:31:00.700 the rest of the

00:31:01.220 world of course

00:31:01.980 this notion

00:31:04.040 of exceptionalism

00:31:05.220 had been

00:31:06.260 turned around

00:31:07.080 to indicate

00:31:08.220 an imperial

00:31:08.840 or post-imperial

00:31:10.240 vision

00:31:11.680 but in

00:31:12.660 here Grant's

00:31:13.780 day

00:31:14.060 it was

00:31:15.260 a plea

00:31:15.960 for American

00:31:16.660 uniqueness

00:31:17.180 in American

00:31:17.820 terms

00:31:18.520 which meant

00:31:19.540 that America

00:31:20.100 was to be

00:31:20.580 a society

00:31:21.240 that did not

00:31:22.280 involve itself

00:31:23.020 with the old

00:31:23.600 world

00:31:24.060 particularly

00:31:24.560 there was a

00:31:25.080 new world

00:31:25.760 sufficient unto

00:31:27.040 itself

00:31:27.600 and I think

00:31:29.260 once

00:31:29.860 America opened

00:31:32.220 up to the

00:31:32.660 forces that

00:31:33.340 wanted it to

00:31:34.060 go global

00:31:34.800 and play a

00:31:35.980 global role

00:31:36.840 the influence

00:31:38.060 of this old

00:31:38.820 patterned

00:31:39.660 cross-grained

00:31:40.440 wasp elite

00:31:41.260 was bound

00:31:42.140 to falter

00:31:42.820 and die 0.89

00:31:44.060 in the way

00:31:44.780 that it has

00:31:45.500 yes

00:31:46.240 well speaking

00:31:47.320 of the

00:31:48.580 ascent to

00:31:49.240 globalism

00:31:49.980 I think it's

00:31:51.000 worth talking

00:31:51.800 about the

00:31:52.480 issue of

00:31:52.920 Haiti

00:31:53.280 which was

00:31:54.440 quite an

00:31:55.280 important topic

00:31:56.120 for Lothrop

00:31:57.100 Stoddard

00:31:57.660 who was

00:31:59.040 one of

00:31:59.560 Grant's

00:31:59.940 protégés

00:32:00.580 certainly

00:32:01.000 modelled

00:32:01.580 his theories

00:32:02.980 on Grants

00:32:03.940 and so on

00:32:05.120 and so forth

00:32:05.700 he actually

00:32:07.240 wrote his

00:32:07.780 doctoral

00:32:08.080 dissertation

00:32:08.560 on the

00:32:10.040 revolution

00:32:10.660 in San

00:32:11.060 Domingo

00:32:11.600 and that

00:32:11.900 is the

00:32:12.320 race war

00:32:13.460 for lack

00:32:14.380 of a better

00:32:14.720 term

00:32:15.140 that occurred

00:32:15.760 in that

00:32:16.020 island

00:32:16.340 after the

00:32:17.460 French

00:32:17.720 Revolution

00:32:18.260 which is

00:32:19.560 certainly

00:32:19.780 inspired by

00:32:20.500 the French

00:32:20.800 Revolution

00:32:21.200 and I

00:32:22.400 think it's

00:32:22.660 worth

00:32:22.840 pointing out

00:32:23.900 a couple

00:32:24.680 of things

00:32:25.360 to go

00:32:26.700 back to

00:32:27.320 American

00:32:27.820 globalism

00:32:28.580 but in

00:32:29.780 1915

00:32:31.100 US Marines

00:32:33.460 were actually

00:32:34.140 sent to

00:32:34.800 Haiti

00:32:35.100 by Woodrow

00:32:36.100 Wilson

00:32:36.460 and he

00:32:36.960 said that

00:32:37.500 he was

00:32:37.740 going to

00:32:38.040 bring

00:32:38.520 democracy

00:32:39.260 and they

00:32:40.680 actually

00:32:40.940 remained

00:32:41.460 there

00:32:41.800 for some

00:32:42.440 20-25

00:32:43.560 years

00:32:44.120 they built

00:32:45.060 all sorts

00:32:45.600 of things

00:32:46.060 and that

00:32:46.940 didn't really

00:32:47.460 work

00:32:47.860 and then

00:32:48.220 actually

00:32:48.600 in the

00:32:49.020 latter half

00:32:50.040 of Dwight

00:32:51.080 Eisenhower's

00:32:51.760 administration

00:32:52.360 Marines

00:32:53.940 were sent

00:32:54.380 back to

00:32:54.900 Haiti

00:32:55.120 to keep

00:32:55.680 it from

00:32:55.960 going

00:32:56.220 communist

00:32:56.820 and

00:32:58.260 the island

00:32:59.500 didn't do

00:33:00.200 too much

00:33:00.780 and then

00:33:01.400 in 1994

00:33:02.100 Bill Clinton

00:33:02.960 actually

00:33:03.320 sought to

00:33:03.800 restore

00:33:04.260 democracy

00:33:04.860 this time

00:33:06.340 around

00:33:07.300 75-100

00:33:09.580 years later

00:33:10.240 after it

00:33:10.620 was brought

00:33:11.200 to the

00:33:11.680 island

00:33:11.980 and so

00:33:13.840 it seems

00:33:14.700 like Haiti 0.84

00:33:15.440 it's

00:33:17.280 almost been

00:33:19.300 a platform

00:33:20.120 for all

00:33:21.140 of these

00:33:21.480 ideas

00:33:22.020 to play

00:33:24.060 out

00:33:24.360 that is

00:33:24.620 American

00:33:24.980 globalism

00:33:25.780 the continual

00:33:26.540 failure of

00:33:27.320 American

00:33:27.600 globalism

00:33:28.240 and also

00:33:29.800 something

00:33:30.200 that

00:33:30.560 Stoddard

00:33:31.100 talked

00:33:31.480 about

00:33:31.820 which

00:33:32.120 was

00:33:32.340 those

00:33:32.660 revolutionary

00:33:34.160 ideas

00:33:34.960 that would

00:33:35.680 inflame

00:33:36.580 the minds

00:33:38.040 of men

00:33:38.660 so

00:33:38.940 maybe

00:33:39.580 Jonathan

00:33:39.900 you could

00:33:40.100 just talk

00:33:40.520 a little

00:33:40.820 bit

00:33:41.160 about

00:33:41.780 Stoddard's

00:33:43.200 rather

00:33:43.980 fascinating

00:33:44.740 book

00:33:45.260 on Haiti

00:33:46.100 and a lot

00:33:47.220 of the

00:33:47.440 ideas

00:33:47.960 that he

00:33:48.240 brings

00:33:48.520 up

00:33:48.760 and also

00:33:49.700 just the

00:33:50.560 contemporary

00:33:51.140 relevance

00:33:51.760 of Haiti

00:33:52.220 how

00:33:52.660 it's

00:33:53.360 still

00:33:53.720 in the

00:33:54.100 news

00:33:54.420 we're

00:33:54.720 still

00:33:55.420 fascinated

00:33:57.360 by ideas

00:33:58.400 of

00:33:58.640 democratizing

00:33:59.580 it

00:33:59.900 or

00:34:00.080 quote

00:34:00.620 developing

00:34:01.280 it

00:34:01.580 in

00:34:02.260 quote

00:34:02.540 and

00:34:02.700 how

00:34:03.040 this

00:34:03.340 fetish

00:34:04.260 almost

00:34:04.600 won't

00:34:04.980 ever

00:34:05.260 go

00:34:05.460 away

00:34:05.820 yes

00:34:07.440 it's

00:34:07.860 a sort

00:34:08.160 of

00:34:08.340 starting

00:34:09.560 to start

00:34:10.000 relief

00:34:10.320 by the

00:34:10.720 recent

00:34:11.020 Haitian

00:34:11.480 earthquake

00:34:11.880 and the

00:34:13.160 enormous

00:34:13.520 expenditure

00:34:14.240 of dollars

00:34:14.860 and time

00:34:15.880 and muscle

00:34:16.400 and energy

00:34:16.980 in trying

00:34:17.960 to rebuild

00:34:18.600 Haiti

00:34:18.960 after the

00:34:19.500 earthquake

00:34:19.920 I remember

00:34:20.380 Alex

00:34:20.800 Katarjic

00:34:21.540 I think

00:34:22.480 wrote

00:34:22.860 a piece

00:34:24.160 on

00:34:24.320 alternative

00:34:24.780 right

00:34:25.360 or certainly

00:34:26.480 similar

00:34:26.900 websites

00:34:27.440 to the

00:34:27.900 extent

00:34:28.340 that

00:34:28.580 Haiti

00:34:28.900 should

00:34:29.180 not

00:34:29.380 be

00:34:29.580 rebuilt

00:34:30.120 which of

00:34:32.000 course

00:34:32.260 is an

00:34:33.160 argument

00:34:33.500 for

00:34:34.100 dysgenics

00:34:34.860 in many

00:34:35.240 respects

00:34:35.860 the

00:34:38.200 revolution

00:34:39.320 in San

00:34:39.680 Domingo

00:34:40.140 dealt

00:34:41.400 with the

00:34:42.040 immediate

00:34:42.580 aftermath

00:34:43.180 of the

00:34:44.640 French

00:34:44.960 revolution

00:34:45.440 impact

00:34:46.120 on Haiti

00:34:46.700 and the

00:34:48.160 tripartite

00:34:49.120 war that

00:34:49.600 developed

00:34:49.900 between

00:34:50.220 the

00:34:50.360 British

00:34:50.600 crown

00:34:51.020 and

00:34:51.260 Spanish

00:34:51.740 and the

00:34:52.040 French

00:34:52.280 authorities

00:34:52.800 there

00:34:53.240 and the

00:34:54.240 emergence

00:34:54.700 of

00:34:55.500 a

00:34:56.640 racially

00:34:56.960 conscious 0.69

00:34:57.440 black 0.55

00:34:57.820 army

00:34:58.240 under

00:34:58.560 Troisant

00:34:58.980 Leverture

00:34:59.660 and

00:35:02.180 its

00:35:02.780 aftermath

00:35:03.380 in

00:35:03.940 Haiti

00:35:04.340 where

00:35:05.860 Leverture

00:35:06.760 was outmaneuvered

00:35:07.620 by Napoleon

00:35:08.400 who history

00:35:10.100 records of course

00:35:11.040 was a

00:35:11.440 racialist

00:35:12.160 which rather

00:35:13.680 shocks people

00:35:14.440 today

00:35:15.020 when Troisant

00:35:16.620 was invited

00:35:17.400 to France

00:35:17.980 he was promptly

00:35:18.520 arrested

00:35:19.240 and put in a

00:35:20.220 tower

00:35:20.540 and Napoleon

00:35:22.760 turned to his

00:35:23.380 marshals

00:35:23.780 and said

00:35:24.140 you see

00:35:24.460 how I

00:35:24.840 deal

00:35:25.000 with them

00:35:25.400 and

00:35:27.540 Napoleon's 0.81

00:35:30.960 views on

00:35:31.780 many of

00:35:32.440 these matters

00:35:33.240 are now

00:35:33.720 quite notorious

00:35:34.460 and have led

00:35:35.420 to a de-escalation

00:35:36.440 of the Napoleonic

00:35:37.280 cult

00:35:37.800 that was part

00:35:38.860 and parcel

00:35:39.320 of French

00:35:39.940 intellectual life

00:35:40.940 for the

00:35:41.620 better part

00:35:42.140 of the

00:35:42.360 last 200

00:35:42.980 years

00:35:43.560 so

00:35:44.780 this

00:35:46.920 racial

00:35:47.480 warfare

00:35:48.120 which is

00:35:48.680 not too

00:35:49.520 extreme

00:35:50.380 to call

00:35:50.880 it

00:35:51.200 which

00:35:52.080 subsumed

00:35:52.980 Haiti

00:35:53.380 and which

00:35:54.380 led

00:35:54.720 after many

00:35:55.520 bloody

00:35:55.880 massacres

00:35:56.460 and interneed

00:35:57.100 strife

00:35:57.860 to the

00:35:58.560 massacre

00:35:58.920 of the

00:35:59.360 residual

00:35:59.800 white

00:36:00.400 largely

00:36:00.800 French

00:36:01.300 population

00:36:02.020 and

00:36:03.800 the

00:36:04.060 emergence

00:36:04.500 of a 0.97

00:36:04.940 black

00:36:05.280 republican

00:36:06.200 dictatorship

00:36:07.000 in

00:36:07.960 Haiti

00:36:08.280 for most

00:36:09.340 of the

00:36:09.600 19th

00:36:10.060 century

00:36:10.480 Haiti

00:36:11.460 is

00:36:11.720 essentially

00:36:12.080 an

00:36:12.280 African

00:36:12.560 society

00:36:13.200 in

00:36:14.720 the

00:36:15.180 western

00:36:15.620 world

00:36:16.220 and

00:36:17.220 closely

00:36:17.720 resembles

00:36:18.300 the

00:36:18.600 society

00:36:19.040 America

00:36:19.480 set up

00:36:20.020 in extreme

00:36:20.560 West Africa

00:36:21.220 called

00:36:21.560 Liberia

00:36:22.300 the

00:36:23.100 Liberian

00:36:23.640 flag

00:36:23.980 is of course

00:36:24.460 the

00:36:24.640 American

00:36:24.980 flag

00:36:25.500 which is

00:36:25.860 one

00:36:26.160 star

00:36:26.720 and

00:36:27.520 Liberia

00:36:28.160 which

00:36:28.420 America

00:36:28.820 has also

00:36:29.320 intervened

00:36:30.000 in

00:36:30.340 for the

00:36:31.040 best part

00:36:31.460 of a

00:36:31.660 century

00:36:31.960 and a

00:36:32.240 half

00:36:32.680 in order

00:36:33.420 to try

00:36:33.800 and make

00:36:34.140 things

00:36:34.480 right

00:36:35.000 was to

00:36:36.200 be the

00:36:36.780 resettlement

00:36:37.460 zone for 0.99

00:36:38.180 the black 0.99

00:36:38.540 slaves 0.55

00:36:39.160 the Lincoln

00:36:41.160 policy

00:36:42.100 in relation

00:36:43.400 to black

00:36:43.820 emancipation

00:36:44.540 had two

00:36:45.020 strands

00:36:45.620 one of which

00:36:46.580 of course

00:36:46.920 was never

00:36:47.300 realized

00:36:47.980 and that

00:36:48.700 was the

00:36:48.980 second

00:36:49.240 one

00:36:49.720 whereby

00:36:50.300 after the

00:36:50.840 civil war

00:36:51.600 he wished

00:36:52.620 at least

00:36:53.080 in theory

00:36:53.740 to deport

00:36:54.980 the African 0.75

00:36:55.960 population

00:36:56.600 of the

00:36:56.880 United

00:36:57.120 States

00:36:57.560 back to

00:36:58.060 Liberia

00:36:58.720 which is

00:36:59.460 why this

00:36:59.880 colony

00:37:00.180 was established

00:37:00.820 on the

00:37:01.300 extreme

00:37:01.580 West

00:37:01.840 African

00:37:02.200 coast

00:37:02.820 and that

00:37:03.920 of course

00:37:04.300 never

00:37:04.580 was carried

00:37:05.680 forward

00:37:06.200 but in

00:37:07.060 relation to

00:37:07.540 Haiti

00:37:08.060 Stoddard

00:37:09.280 sees

00:37:10.020 it is

00:37:12.460 a clear

00:37:12.860 example

00:37:13.420 of white 0.96

00:37:13.940 folly

00:37:14.380 in relation

00:37:15.440 to dealing

00:37:16.120 with

00:37:16.680 essentially

00:37:17.620 another

00:37:18.200 race

00:37:18.740 that has

00:37:20.140 different

00:37:20.580 standards

00:37:21.140 of behavior

00:37:22.080 different

00:37:22.900 standards

00:37:23.440 different

00:37:23.920 characteristics

00:37:24.940 of identity

00:37:25.700 and will

00:37:26.880 run a

00:37:27.240 society

00:37:27.760 in a

00:37:28.080 completely

00:37:28.440 different

00:37:28.920 manner

00:37:29.360 to that

00:37:30.240 which

00:37:30.460 Europeans

00:37:31.120 would

00:37:31.560 or even

00:37:32.500 semi-Europeans

00:37:33.480 would

00:37:33.820 the elite

00:37:34.920 in Haiti

00:37:35.420 since the

00:37:36.120 massacring of 0.97

00:37:36.720 the whites 0.90

00:37:37.140 in the early

00:37:37.620 20th and

00:37:38.140 19th century

00:37:38.900 has always

00:37:39.920 been the

00:37:40.380 latter

00:37:40.640 of course

00:37:41.140 has always

00:37:41.520 been of

00:37:41.840 mixed race

00:37:42.540 including

00:37:43.680 the

00:37:43.940 notorious 0.91

00:37:44.420 Haitian

00:37:45.440 dictatorship

00:37:46.020 of the

00:37:46.980 mid-20th

00:37:47.580 century

00:37:48.080 Papadoc

00:37:48.760 Devalier's 0.91

00:37:49.520 regime

00:37:49.940 and the

00:37:50.840 militia

00:37:51.240 of the

00:37:51.440 Tom Tom

00:37:51.860 Macout

00:37:52.340 through whom

00:37:53.020 he exercised

00:37:53.940 supreme

00:37:54.880 authority

00:37:55.420 the Americans

00:37:56.620 supported him

00:37:57.780 despite all

00:37:59.620 of the

00:37:59.860 penchant

00:38:00.400 for

00:38:01.000 bloodthirst

00:38:03.140 you know

00:38:03.460 putting

00:38:03.820 cabinet

00:38:04.200 members

00:38:04.540 to death

00:38:04.980 during 0.85

00:38:05.240 cabinet

00:38:05.600 meetings

00:38:06.240 personal

00:38:08.120 support

00:38:08.620 for

00:38:08.820 voodooism 0.99

00:38:09.520 dispensing

00:38:11.940 money

00:38:12.240 in the

00:38:12.560 streets

00:38:13.060 surrounded

00:38:14.720 by men

00:38:15.280 with

00:38:15.420 weapons

00:38:15.880 traditional

00:38:16.880 African

00:38:17.840 ways

00:38:18.240 of

00:38:18.380 behaving

00:38:18.860 the

00:38:20.400 United

00:38:20.680 States

00:38:21.060 of

00:38:21.200 America

00:38:21.540 supported

00:38:22.120 all of

00:38:23.260 this

00:38:23.560 for the

00:38:24.920 fear of

00:38:25.240 getting

00:38:25.440 something

00:38:25.760 worse

00:38:26.140 in

00:38:26.320 Haiti

00:38:26.620 indeed

00:38:27.700 America

00:38:28.160 is always

00:38:28.620 intervening

00:38:29.420 to either

00:38:30.340 prevent

00:38:30.760 authoritarianism

00:38:31.660 in

00:38:31.840 Haiti

00:38:32.160 hence

00:38:33.140 but also

00:38:35.900 reluctant to

00:38:36.840 endorse

00:38:37.220 certain

00:38:37.500 people

00:38:37.760 who

00:38:37.880 are

00:38:37.980 thrown

00:38:38.240 up

00:38:38.420 by

00:38:38.680 democracy

00:38:39.720 or

00:38:40.040 pseudo-democratic

00:38:40.900 reform

00:38:41.580 in

00:38:42.240 Haiti

00:38:42.540 the

00:38:43.300 controversy

00:38:44.660 around

00:38:45.020 President

00:38:45.420 Aristide

00:38:46.300 when Clinton

00:38:47.360 was in

00:38:47.940 power

00:38:48.720 is a

00:38:49.660 testament

00:38:49.980 to this

00:38:50.620 and

00:38:51.620 the

00:38:54.200 IQ

00:38:54.600 level

00:38:55.060 in

00:38:55.340 Haiti

00:38:55.640 is 1.00

00:38:56.240 pathetically 1.00

00:38:56.860 low

00:38:57.380 the

00:38:58.160 standard

00:38:58.600 of

00:38:58.820 living

00:38:59.060 is

00:38:59.420 extraordinarily

00:39:00.060 low

00:39:00.740 an

00:39:01.320 enormous

00:39:01.680 proportion

00:39:02.120 of the

00:39:02.380 population

00:39:02.900 still

00:39:03.300 live in

00:39:03.660 shanty

00:39:04.000 towns

00:39:04.480 still

00:39:05.380 live in

00:39:05.880 wooden

00:39:06.660 huts

00:39:07.240 still

00:39:08.040 live in

00:39:08.460 cardboard

00:39:08.820 boxes

00:39:09.300 a

00:39:09.560 significant

00:39:10.060 proportion

00:39:10.620 of

00:39:10.820 people

00:39:11.260 eke

00:39:11.960 out

00:39:12.340 a

00:39:12.900 purely

00:39:13.160 subsistence

00:39:13.880 form

00:39:14.160 of

00:39:14.320 life

00:39:14.760 one

00:39:16.580 of the

00:39:16.800 reasons

00:39:17.060 the

00:39:17.280 earthquake

00:39:17.560 had such

00:39:18.100 devastating

00:39:18.620 effects

00:39:19.200 the

00:39:20.300 size

00:39:20.660 of

00:39:20.820 the

00:39:21.000 houses

00:39:22.500 were

00:39:22.800 jelly

00:39:23.020 built

00:39:23.440 and

00:39:24.120 didn't

00:39:24.380 have

00:39:24.640 the

00:39:24.840 internal

00:39:25.320 architectural

00:39:26.040 armour

00:39:27.140 that's

00:39:27.960 necessary

00:39:28.500 to

00:39:29.040 prevent

00:39:29.480 them

00:39:30.220 from

00:39:30.420 falling

00:39:30.700 about

00:39:31.020 people's

00:39:31.520 ears

00:39:31.880 similar

00:39:32.900 earthquakes

00:39:34.500 occur in

00:39:35.040 Japan

00:39:35.240 all the

00:39:35.720 time

00:39:36.140 and

00:39:36.740 hardly

00:39:37.020 anyone

00:39:37.380 is

00:39:37.620 injured

00:39:37.880 at

00:39:38.120 all

00:39:38.460 and

00:39:39.020 this

00:39:39.140 is

00:39:39.260 because

00:39:39.480 the

00:39:39.680 quality

00:39:39.980 of

00:39:40.140 the

00:39:40.240 building

00:39:40.560 is

00:39:40.740 so

00:39:40.920 much

00:39:41.100 better

00:39:41.460 but

00:39:43.420 Haiti

00:39:45.140 is

00:39:45.460 essentially

00:39:45.900 a

00:39:46.120 basket

00:39:46.440 case

00:39:46.840 society

00:39:47.400 and

00:39:49.540 it's

00:39:51.180 Stoddard

00:39:52.280 systematized

00:39:53.300 the

00:39:53.480 recognition

00:39:53.980 of this

00:39:54.620 usually

00:39:55.500 it's

00:39:55.760 dealt

00:39:55.960 with

00:39:56.200 anecdotally

00:39:57.140 there's

00:39:58.860 a book

00:39:59.120 by

00:39:59.400 St.

00:39:59.660 John

00:39:59.960 at the

00:40:00.540 end

00:40:00.700 of the

00:40:01.080 20th

00:40:01.680 century

00:40:02.020 called

00:40:02.340 Haiti

00:40:02.780 19th

00:40:03.720 century

00:40:03.940 called

00:40:04.200 Haiti

00:40:04.480 the 0.98

00:40:04.700 black

00:40:04.900 republic

00:40:05.380 but

00:40:06.540 his

00:40:06.760 analysis

00:40:07.220 of

00:40:07.540 Haiti

00:40:07.820 is

00:40:08.560 anecdotal

00:40:11.840 really

00:40:12.400 and

00:40:13.060 spectatorish

00:40:14.340 whereas

00:40:15.540 Stoddard

00:40:17.240 is

00:40:17.760 scientific

00:40:18.540 and

00:40:19.920 eugenic

00:40:21.120 and

00:40:22.120 sociobiological

00:40:23.180 and

00:40:24.820 anthropological

00:40:25.920 biophysical

00:40:27.540 and racially

00:40:28.880 historical

00:40:29.500 so

00:40:30.840 it's an

00:40:31.780 attempt to

00:40:32.280 systematize

00:40:33.280 what might

00:40:34.140 otherwise

00:40:34.640 appear to

00:40:35.480 be whimsy

00:40:36.240 and a

00:40:36.940 collection

00:40:37.320 of

00:40:37.560 anecdotes

00:40:39.260 about

00:40:39.740 an

00:40:40.960 Africanized

00:40:41.740 society

00:40:42.340 in

00:40:43.380 the

00:40:44.520 Caribbean

00:40:44.900 and

00:40:46.120 the

00:40:46.340 perils

00:40:46.820 and

00:40:47.020 misadventures

00:40:47.660 of it

00:40:48.120 so

00:40:48.960 Stoddard's

00:40:49.720 view

00:40:50.060 is a

00:40:50.640 systematization

00:40:51.600 of what

00:40:52.620 otherwise

00:40:53.040 could be

00:40:53.720 sort of

00:40:54.240 ethnic

00:40:55.520 and

00:40:56.780 political

00:40:57.380 cliches

00:40:58.320 but it's

00:40:59.440 a pretty

00:40:59.720 devastating

00:41:00.280 analysis

00:41:00.840 of

00:41:01.400 Haiti

00:41:01.820 which

00:41:02.660 can't

00:41:03.000 really

00:41:03.240 be

00:41:03.440 refuted

00:41:03.980 given

00:41:04.760 its

00:41:05.160 current

00:41:05.940 power

00:41:06.360 of

00:41:06.580 state

00:41:07.060 as

00:41:08.060 a

00:41:09.020 semi

00:41:09.260 civilized

00:41:09.900 policy

00:41:10.440 yes

00:41:12.060 you know

00:41:12.340 one thing

00:41:12.960 that I

00:41:14.080 found quite

00:41:14.800 interesting

00:41:15.300 about his

00:41:16.200 book

00:41:16.540 which I

00:41:16.880 actually

00:41:17.140 read

00:41:17.600 recently

00:41:18.620 because Alex

00:41:19.260 put out a

00:41:19.920 new edition

00:41:20.780 and that is

00:41:21.700 the combination

00:41:22.740 between

00:41:23.640 let's say

00:41:24.900 leftist ideology

00:41:26.220 on one hand

00:41:27.240 and then

00:41:28.260 genetics

00:41:29.740 and biology

00:41:31.060 on the other

00:41:32.320 and you know

00:41:33.680 one thing you

00:41:34.340 got from the

00:41:35.260 book

00:41:35.640 is that

00:41:36.280 this pot

00:41:39.020 was simmering

00:41:40.160 for a long

00:41:40.900 time

00:41:41.320 there was

00:41:42.080 always going

00:41:43.000 to be

00:41:43.380 this racial

00:41:44.160 clash

00:41:44.920 it was never

00:41:45.940 going to

00:41:46.340 ultimately

00:41:46.960 work

00:41:47.460 it was always

00:41:47.860 going to

00:41:48.120 end in

00:41:48.560 tears

00:41:48.880 and blood

00:41:49.480 but what

00:41:50.680 really set

00:41:51.880 off the

00:41:52.380 revolution

00:41:53.140 the catalyst

00:41:54.520 was this

00:41:55.540 new way

00:41:56.560 of talking

00:41:57.280 that was

00:41:58.380 brought to

00:41:59.220 the island

00:41:59.700 immediately

00:42:00.720 after the

00:42:01.380 French

00:42:01.580 Revolution

00:42:02.080 that you

00:42:02.840 could soon

00:42:03.420 start talking

00:42:04.220 about the

00:42:04.680 rights of

00:42:05.180 man

00:42:05.540 and so

00:42:06.660 on and

00:42:06.900 so forth

00:42:07.460 and that

00:42:08.020 this

00:42:08.500 was like

00:42:09.920 pouring

00:42:10.440 gasoline

00:42:11.080 on the

00:42:11.480 fire

00:42:11.800 and it

00:42:12.020 almost

00:42:12.220 immediately

00:42:12.780 set off

00:42:13.620 a revolution

00:42:15.400 and a race

00:42:16.140 war on the

00:42:16.780 island

00:42:17.100 yes it

00:42:20.460 was

00:42:20.660 and yet

00:42:21.880 the irony

00:42:22.280 is that

00:42:22.660 most of

00:42:23.000 those

00:42:23.140 French

00:42:23.400 revolutionary

00:42:23.840 ideas

00:42:24.400 were never

00:42:24.700 to be

00:42:24.960 applied

00:42:25.260 in that

00:42:25.620 way

00:42:26.060 because

00:42:26.920 most of

00:42:27.440 the

00:42:27.560 extreme

00:42:27.920 revolutionaries

00:42:28.520 in France

00:42:29.140 such as

00:42:29.500 the

00:42:29.640 Club de

00:42:29.940 Cotelier

00:42:30.360 and the

00:42:31.300 Club de

00:42:31.620 Jacobin

00:42:32.200 the two

00:42:32.820 major

00:42:33.160 revolutionary

00:42:33.760 clubs

00:42:34.400 only ever

00:42:36.440 thought

00:42:36.760 that those

00:42:37.340 ideas

00:42:37.820 would be

00:42:38.140 applicable

00:42:38.560 to

00:42:39.040 Europeans

00:42:39.680 to

00:42:40.540 Frenchmen

00:42:41.040 in particular

00:42:41.700 and to

00:42:42.580 white men

00:42:43.020 in general

00:42:43.600 they never

00:42:44.920 thought

00:42:45.220 that those

00:42:45.580 ideas

00:42:45.960 would be

00:42:46.260 applicable

00:42:46.620 to other

00:42:47.040 groups

00:42:47.540 and although

00:42:48.440 there were

00:42:48.820 always those

00:42:49.580 that wished

00:42:50.060 to go

00:42:50.460 further

00:42:50.900 there was

00:42:52.320 no

00:42:52.760 tendency

00:42:53.840 in France

00:42:54.660 apart from

00:42:55.300 on the

00:42:55.640 fringes

00:42:56.120 of the

00:42:56.400 fringes

00:42:57.020 and this

00:42:57.900 was amongst

00:42:58.300 the revolutionary

00:42:58.920 class

00:42:59.440 don't forget

00:43:00.040 to

00:43:00.820 emancipate

00:43:01.420 the

00:43:01.580 slaves

00:43:02.100 nor

00:43:02.880 was

00:43:03.060 there

00:43:03.220 any

00:43:03.440 move

00:43:03.860 to

00:43:04.080 particularly

00:43:04.720 and

00:43:05.420 Napoleon

00:43:05.840 certainly

00:43:06.260 put the

00:43:06.600 kibosh 0.68

00:43:07.000 on that

00:43:07.420 because he

00:43:07.820 had no

00:43:08.100 intention

00:43:08.480 of doing

00:43:08.860 so

00:43:09.200 just as

00:43:10.060 there was

00:43:10.280 no

00:43:10.460 intention

00:43:11.300 to

00:43:12.260 extend

00:43:12.680 these

00:43:12.960 ideas

00:43:13.440 of

00:43:13.640 liberation

00:43:14.140 to

00:43:14.440 women 1.00

00:43:14.800 this was

00:43:16.020 regarded

00:43:16.420 as absurd

00:43:17.100 even by

00:43:17.760 the

00:43:17.920 Jacobins

00:43:18.380 themselves

00:43:18.960 and the

00:43:20.380 most radical

00:43:20.940 people on

00:43:21.640 the Jacobin

00:43:22.160 side

00:43:22.480 people like

00:43:23.000 Rubspear

00:43:23.620 and

00:43:24.320 St.

00:43:24.540 Just

00:43:24.980 deprecated

00:43:26.780 the idea

00:43:27.340 that these

00:43:27.880 ideas

00:43:28.400 were always

00:43:29.260 for export

00:43:30.000 and always

00:43:31.520 to be

00:43:32.440 reinterpreted

00:43:33.660 in different

00:43:34.060 contexts

00:43:34.780 although

00:43:35.620 there were

00:43:37.840 people who

00:43:38.400 saw the

00:43:38.800 correlation

00:43:39.360 and believed

00:43:41.000 in the

00:43:41.240 universalism

00:43:42.280 of the

00:43:42.580 declaration

00:43:43.060 of the

00:43:43.360 rights

00:43:43.540 of man

00:43:43.880 there was

00:43:44.180 the group

00:43:44.720 was it

00:43:45.020 the

00:43:45.220 amis

00:43:45.760 des

00:43:46.100 noirs

00:43:46.640 the

00:43:47.080 friends

00:43:47.720 of the

00:43:48.080 blacks 1.00

00:43:48.580 that I

00:43:49.640 remember

00:43:50.880 that were

00:43:51.480 kind of

00:43:52.240 putting

00:43:52.580 taking

00:43:53.140 leftism

00:43:54.840 to its

00:43:55.240 ultimate

00:43:55.720 conclusion

00:43:56.300 in some

00:43:57.440 ways

00:43:57.640 what we're

00:43:58.280 talking

00:43:58.620 about

00:43:58.940 is the

00:43:59.680 history

00:44:00.240 of the

00:44:00.500 left

00:44:00.700 in general

00:44:01.280 which has

00:44:01.840 moved

00:44:02.740 from

00:44:03.300 advocating

00:44:04.680 for

00:44:05.220 working

00:44:05.640 people

00:44:06.180 or the

00:44:06.540 proletariat

00:44:07.220 towards

00:44:07.980 advocating

00:44:08.580 for the

00:44:09.200 wretched

00:44:09.420 of the

00:44:09.760 earth

00:44:10.060 and the

00:44:10.920 third

00:44:11.100 world

00:44:11.540 in some

00:44:12.440 ways

00:44:12.560 that is

00:44:13.140 the

00:44:13.440 movement

00:44:14.380 of the

00:44:14.880 left

00:44:15.240 in a

00:44:15.780 nutshell

00:44:16.100 over the

00:44:16.620 past

00:44:17.580 hundred

00:44:17.820 years

00:44:18.140 or so

00:44:19.060 in

00:44:20.320 closing

00:44:20.740 Jonathan

00:44:21.160 let me

00:44:21.600 bring up

00:44:22.200 another

00:44:23.080 movement

00:44:24.660 which is

00:44:25.180 associated

00:44:25.780 with the

00:44:26.500 left

00:44:26.940 but it's

00:44:28.180 also one

00:44:28.740 that's

00:44:28.920 associated

00:44:29.320 with

00:44:29.560 Madison

00:44:29.960 Grant

00:44:30.460 and it's

00:44:32.460 one that

00:44:32.920 I truly

00:44:34.060 hope that

00:44:34.900 our

00:44:35.380 side

00:44:37.160 our little

00:44:38.360 fringe

00:44:38.960 contingent

00:44:39.700 that we

00:44:40.160 might

00:44:40.460 reclaim

00:44:41.880 at some

00:44:42.800 point

00:44:43.040 and I

00:44:43.260 think we

00:44:43.480 should be

00:44:43.800 working to

00:44:44.280 reclaim it

00:44:44.680 right now

00:44:45.080 and that

00:44:45.440 is

00:44:45.700 environmentalism

00:44:47.140 so-called

00:44:47.780 but I

00:44:49.480 actually

00:44:49.880 don't even

00:44:50.740 like the

00:44:51.240 word

00:44:51.660 environmentalism

00:44:53.140 I like

00:44:54.360 I think

00:44:55.060 saying we're

00:44:55.940 naturalist

00:44:56.780 or that

00:44:57.180 we want

00:44:58.320 to conserve

00:44:58.900 nature

00:44:59.500 is a much

00:45:00.680 better term

00:45:02.120 nature

00:45:03.660 has all

00:45:04.200 sorts

00:45:04.560 evokes all

00:45:05.540 sorts of

00:45:05.860 things

00:45:06.140 has all

00:45:06.500 sorts of

00:45:06.820 connotations

00:45:07.440 I think

00:45:07.920 are much

00:45:08.220 more positive

00:45:08.920 than

00:45:09.240 environment

00:45:10.340 which seems

00:45:10.920 kind of

00:45:11.300 sterile

00:45:11.900 and things

00:45:12.260 like this

00:45:12.680 obviously

00:45:14.080 Madison

00:45:14.740 Grant

00:45:15.060 was a

00:45:15.920 scientist

00:45:16.340 but he

00:45:18.220 also wanted

00:45:19.080 to preserve

00:45:20.120 say the

00:45:21.680 bison

00:45:22.080 because they

00:45:22.640 were a

00:45:22.980 majestic

00:45:23.360 animal

00:45:23.820 he thought

00:45:24.260 they were

00:45:24.540 beautiful

00:45:24.960 he obviously

00:45:25.740 wanted to

00:45:26.440 preserve

00:45:26.880 Glacier

00:45:27.340 National Park

00:45:28.760 or the

00:45:29.000 area

00:45:29.360 therein

00:45:30.580 because it

00:45:31.800 was some

00:45:32.360 of the

00:45:32.540 most

00:45:32.740 spectacular

00:45:33.360 grounds

00:45:34.420 you know

00:45:34.900 on the

00:45:35.480 earth

00:45:35.740 so there's

00:45:37.340 a kind

00:45:37.740 of I

00:45:38.240 think one

00:45:38.800 way that

00:45:39.300 what we

00:45:39.880 could bring

00:45:40.360 to

00:45:40.560 environmentalism

00:45:41.340 which I

00:45:42.120 think is

00:45:42.480 the most

00:45:42.980 healthy and

00:45:44.340 positive

00:45:44.780 aspect

00:45:45.420 environmentalism

00:45:46.260 which actually

00:45:47.060 attracts people

00:45:48.120 as opposed

00:45:49.620 to the

00:45:51.280 other

00:45:51.940 environmentalist

00:45:52.900 movements

00:45:54.080 of like

00:45:54.500 global

00:45:54.920 government

00:45:55.460 and you

00:45:56.780 know

00:45:56.940 things like

00:45:57.460 this

00:45:57.680 which are

00:45:58.000 not very

00:45:58.640 attractive

00:45:59.060 but what

00:45:59.880 attracts

00:46:00.240 people is

00:46:00.560 that idea

00:46:00.820 of nature

00:46:01.280 the beauty

00:46:01.940 of nature

00:46:02.360 and experiencing

00:46:03.000 nature

00:46:03.500 and so

00:46:04.900 maybe we

00:46:05.260 could just

00:46:05.640 close on

00:46:06.800 that thought

00:46:07.460 a little

00:46:07.920 Jonathan

00:46:08.720 what do

00:46:10.360 you think

00:46:10.640 about that

00:46:11.040 of our

00:46:11.760 ability

00:46:12.320 our unique

00:46:13.240 ability

00:46:13.760 to reclaim

00:46:15.320 conservationism

00:46:17.560 or naturalism

00:46:18.420 and how

00:46:19.600 much like

00:46:21.500 Grant

00:46:22.040 that should

00:46:22.840 be a

00:46:23.400 major cause

00:46:24.380 for us

00:46:24.880 which is

00:46:25.280 to keep

00:46:26.220 the world

00:46:26.840 green

00:46:27.620 and beautiful

00:46:28.680 and to

00:46:30.480 fight things

00:46:31.320 like the

00:46:31.900 terrible

00:46:33.380 overpopulation

00:46:34.580 that you see

00:46:35.120 in some

00:46:35.480 kind of

00:46:35.800 horrifying

00:46:36.240 city 1.00

00:46:36.700 like Mexico

00:46:37.380 City

00:46:37.760 or San

00:46:38.200 Paolo

00:46:38.600 or something

00:46:39.100 you know

00:46:40.360 we want

00:46:41.120 quality over

00:46:42.240 quantity

00:46:42.660 we want

00:46:43.040 to live

00:46:43.340 in a

00:46:43.600 beautiful

00:46:44.020 earth

00:46:45.100 so what

00:46:46.260 are some

00:46:46.540 of your

00:46:46.760 thoughts

00:46:47.100 on that

00:46:47.760 idea

00:46:48.100 yes

00:46:49.400 I think

00:46:49.740 that's

00:46:49.980 mirrored in

00:46:50.500 green ideas

00:46:51.280 itself

00:46:51.880 because you

00:46:52.500 have this

00:46:52.860 idea

00:46:53.240 green ideas

00:46:54.500 are not

00:46:54.820 really part

00:46:55.400 of the

00:46:55.640 left right

00:46:56.040 spectrum

00:46:56.540 but they

00:46:57.240 cut across

00:46:58.280 it in

00:46:58.900 various

00:46:59.420 respects

00:47:00.000 green ideas

00:47:01.500 are also

00:47:01.840 circular

00:47:02.420 because there's

00:47:03.460 a sort of

00:47:03.840 light green

00:47:04.780 outer circle

00:47:05.840 and a dark

00:47:06.960 or deep

00:47:07.520 green as it's

00:47:08.320 called

00:47:08.640 inner circle

00:47:09.580 and the deep

00:47:10.720 green ideas

00:47:11.660 are very

00:47:12.020 interesting

00:47:12.640 even

00:47:13.560 misanthropic

00:47:14.900 to a point

00:47:15.760 with doctrines

00:47:17.060 like Gaia

00:47:17.840 and so on

00:47:19.160 that see

00:47:19.660 humankind

00:47:20.220 as a sort

00:47:21.160 of exocrescence

00:47:22.060 upon the

00:47:22.560 earth

00:47:22.920 and the

00:47:23.640 earth only

00:47:24.200 as value

00:47:24.800 this is part

00:47:25.880 of the

00:47:26.120 tendency

00:47:26.440 all ideas

00:47:27.200 have to

00:47:27.880 maximise

00:47:28.500 their own

00:47:28.880 extremism

00:47:29.600 and adopt

00:47:30.680 at the

00:47:30.960 margin

00:47:31.500 a fundamentalism

00:47:32.920 of their

00:47:33.240 own

00:47:33.460 coinage

00:47:34.100 nevertheless

00:47:34.920 certain

00:47:35.820 more moderate

00:47:36.540 deep green

00:47:37.200 ideas

00:47:37.880 are deeply

00:47:39.420 susceptible

00:47:40.000 to a

00:47:40.760 right wing

00:47:41.200 coinage

00:47:41.900 and

00:47:43.080 the

00:47:44.500 conservation

00:47:45.060 of all

00:47:46.040 forms of

00:47:46.520 natural

00:47:46.880 beauty

00:47:47.420 extreme

00:47:48.480 forms of

00:47:49.160 localism

00:47:49.980 forms of

00:47:51.640 animal

00:47:52.100 husbandry

00:47:52.940 that are

00:47:54.140 linked to

00:47:54.880 preservation

00:47:55.680 of animal

00:47:56.360 species

00:47:56.840 and biodiversity

00:47:57.960 but are not

00:47:59.620 linked to

00:48:00.060 doctrines of

00:48:00.640 rights

00:48:01.260 and animal

00:48:02.360 rights or

00:48:02.900 animal

00:48:03.140 liberation

00:48:03.740 but draw on

00:48:05.140 a similar

00:48:05.600 metaphysic

00:48:06.660 that ends

00:48:07.540 in a different

00:48:08.040 place because

00:48:08.780 it begins

00:48:09.320 in one

00:48:09.800 you see

00:48:11.740 this very

00:48:12.120 much with

00:48:12.600 the split

00:48:13.060 say in

00:48:13.560 Britain

00:48:13.860 between

00:48:14.440 the sort

00:48:16.020 of

00:48:16.400 anarchist

00:48:17.360 group like

00:48:17.920 the animal

00:48:18.300 liberation

00:48:18.800 front

00:48:19.280 and a

00:48:20.620 conservationist

00:48:21.660 group like

00:48:22.400 the Royal

00:48:22.760 Society for

00:48:23.360 the protection

00:48:23.800 of cruelty

00:48:24.260 to animals

00:48:24.940 the two sort

00:48:26.840 of overlap

00:48:27.500 in terms of

00:48:28.060 some of their

00:48:28.480 coteries

00:48:29.140 but ideologically

00:48:30.400 they're very much

00:48:31.320 at variance

00:48:32.020 because the

00:48:32.520 one is

00:48:32.900 conservative

00:48:33.500 and small

00:48:35.140 c

00:48:35.600 and ameliorative

00:48:37.120 and piece

00:48:39.120 by piece

00:48:39.980 and localist

00:48:42.220 whereas the

00:48:43.200 other

00:48:43.560 wishes to

00:48:44.740 extend the

00:48:45.760 universal

00:48:46.400 adoption of

00:48:46.980 human rights

00:48:47.620 to animal

00:48:48.180 species

00:48:48.680 and has

00:48:49.760 developed the

00:48:50.320 concept of

00:48:50.940 animal racism

00:48:51.740 of course

00:48:52.300 namely

00:48:52.660 speciesism

00:48:53.500 all of which

00:48:54.560 is a

00:48:54.880 outgrowth

00:48:55.960 of the

00:48:56.920 politics

00:48:57.520 of human

00:48:58.300 rights

00:48:58.880 but if

00:49:01.160 one

00:49:01.420 assumes

00:49:01.900 the

00:49:02.140 politics

00:49:02.600 of human

00:49:03.060 rights

00:49:03.540 in a

00:49:04.520 grandstanding

00:49:05.460 and universalist

00:49:06.440 way

00:49:06.800 and sees

00:49:07.980 human identity

00:49:08.820 and glory

00:49:10.500 in very much

00:49:11.880 an individual

00:49:12.540 or a

00:49:13.000 localized

00:49:13.700 manner

00:49:14.720 then

00:49:15.940 deep green

00:49:17.660 and ecological

00:49:18.500 ideas

00:49:19.260 have a lot

00:49:19.780 to say

00:49:20.280 to all

00:49:20.760 forms of

00:49:21.240 conservatism

00:49:22.080 that wish

00:49:22.920 to preserve

00:49:23.600 and restore

00:49:24.400 as against

00:49:25.500 that which

00:49:25.960 is transitory

00:49:26.920 and which

00:49:27.680 is to upend

00:49:28.700 and is

00:49:29.520 purely

00:49:29.840 and only

00:49:30.400 concerned

00:49:30.940 with human

00:49:31.440 life

00:49:31.880 to the

00:49:32.600 detriment

00:49:32.920 of the

00:49:33.420 ecology

00:49:33.800 without which

00:49:34.480 mankind

00:49:34.800 couldn't

00:49:35.320 subsist

00:49:35.920 absolutely

00:49:37.200 you know

00:49:37.640 I mentioned

00:49:38.340 this before

00:49:39.240 there's a

00:49:40.040 very useful

00:49:41.160 biography

00:49:42.420 of

00:49:43.360 Madison

00:49:44.800 Grant

00:49:45.280 and it's

00:49:45.980 by a man

00:49:46.400 named

00:49:46.640 Spiro

00:49:47.380 and

00:49:48.380 although

00:49:49.480 he seems

00:49:50.300 to be a

00:49:50.720 left liberal

00:49:51.280 of some

00:49:51.620 kind

00:49:52.020 he clearly

00:49:53.380 wants to

00:49:54.020 get it

00:49:54.420 right

00:49:54.780 and that's

00:49:56.520 certainly

00:49:56.760 admirable

00:49:57.200 he offers

00:49:58.260 a very

00:49:58.660 useful

00:49:59.100 and rich

00:49:59.980 autobiography

00:50:00.940 of Grant

00:50:01.400 which has

00:50:03.420 really influenced

00:50:04.800 my interest

00:50:06.700 in Grant

00:50:07.540 and one

00:50:08.820 of his

00:50:09.080 major themes

00:50:09.840 is that

00:50:10.580 you know

00:50:12.520 if you

00:50:12.960 tell someone

00:50:14.260 that Grant

00:50:15.320 is an early

00:50:16.480 environmentalist

00:50:17.400 they'll usually

00:50:18.020 bring a smile

00:50:18.860 to their face

00:50:19.600 and if you

00:50:20.260 tell someone

00:50:20.740 that he was

00:50:21.120 also an early

00:50:21.780 eugenicist

00:50:22.560 that will

00:50:23.480 usually inspire

00:50:24.400 shock

00:50:25.000 and horror

00:50:25.620 but as

00:50:26.700 Spiro

00:50:26.880 points out

00:50:27.420 there was

00:50:27.700 no contradiction

00:50:28.520 in Grant's

00:50:29.520 mind between

00:50:30.360 saving the

00:50:31.140 Redwoods

00:50:31.700 and saving

00:50:32.640 the white

00:50:33.100 race

00:50:33.520 that those

00:50:34.660 were part

00:50:35.280 of the same

00:50:35.760 movement

00:50:36.160 so as I

00:50:37.360 mentioned before

00:50:37.900 I think we

00:50:38.660 are uniquely

00:50:40.100 suited

00:50:40.640 to

00:50:42.060 generating

00:50:44.360 a kind of

00:50:44.780 renaissance

00:50:45.340 of green

00:50:46.900 or naturalism

00:50:48.500 or environmentalist

00:50:51.120 politics

00:50:51.600 so Jonathan

00:50:52.600 let's just

00:50:53.200 put a

00:50:53.620 bookmark

00:50:54.160 in the

00:50:54.420 conversation

00:50:55.000 right there

00:50:55.980 and I

00:50:56.700 would love

00:50:57.140 to return

00:50:58.120 to these

00:50:58.780 ideas

00:50:59.300 in the

00:50:59.720 near future

00:51:00.260 and I

00:51:00.700 look forward

00:51:01.380 to speaking

00:51:01.780 to you

00:51:02.040 soon

00:51:02.280 yes

00:51:03.600 thanks very

00:51:04.080 much

00:51:04.340 all the

00:51:04.640 day

00:51:04.900 bye for now

00:51:21.600 bye for now

RadixJournal - January 02, 2018

Bowden! - 14 - The E Word

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