RadixJournal - Bowden! - 3 - The European New Right

00:00:00.000 Welcome to Vanguard, a podcast of radical traditionalism.

00:00:24.640 Here's your host, Richard Spencer.

00:00:27.380 Hello, everyone. Today, it's a great pleasure to welcome back to the program, Jonathan Bowden.

00:00:34.660 If you haven't done so already, I encourage you to check out Jonathan's novels and his paintings,

00:00:41.080 which you can learn about at his website, jonathanbowden.co.uk.

00:00:46.640 That's Bowden, B-O-W-D-E-N.

00:00:49.660 I would also encourage you to look at his occasional pieces at countercurrents.com.

00:00:56.380 And also his two brilliant podcasts, which were published here at alternativeright.com, on the left, and Nietzsche.

00:01:07.080 And today, we're going to speak a little bit about another important philosophical current, and that is the European New Right.

00:01:16.340 So, Jonathan, thanks for coming back on.

00:01:19.160 A pleasure for me. No problem at all.

00:01:21.360 Great. I hope you're having a good start to the new year.

00:01:24.300 Yes, it's windy, but one looks forward to better things.

00:01:29.500 Well, as I mentioned, today we're going to talk about the French New Right and Alain de Benoît.

00:01:35.500 This is something that arose in 1968 with the establishment of the, in French,

00:01:44.680 Groupement de Recherche et d'Études pour la Civilisation Européenne, or Greece.

00:01:52.400 It's, of course, in English, it's the Research Group for the Study of European Civilization.

00:01:56.500 And, Jonathan, before we talk about the philosophical currents, just to make sure that all our listeners are on the same page,

00:02:07.700 why don't you just tell us the real basics about this movement, the 101, so to speak,

00:02:14.700 the who's involved in it, who are some, what are some of the big ideas, where is it located, what are some of the journals?

00:02:22.000 So why don't you just give us a taste of what the New Right is all about?

00:02:26.920 Yes, I think it's, I see it as a confluence of two things, really, viewed from the outside.

00:02:34.380 I also think it's very important to realise that the English-speaking world is a bit of an outside in relation to the Continental New Right.

00:02:40.520 The texts are being translated very slowly, but they are.

00:02:46.200 But Anglo-Saxony was always on the outside looking in, although there was an attempt with a magazine called Scorpion,

00:02:53.040 edited by Michael Walker in the 1980s and early 90s, to catch up a bit.

00:02:58.080 There was also another magazine called Perspectives, which was edited by Richard Lawson,

00:03:04.520 and that morphed into a website called Flux Europa.

00:03:06.940 But other than that, the New Right Current was not really registering in English that much.

00:03:13.680 I think the two things that come together are the seizure of the agenda inside the West and inside France,

00:03:20.340 in particular by the New Left in the 1960s, leading to the May events of 1968

00:03:25.900 and battles in the streets for who controlled the space, you know, politically and socially,

00:03:33.880 with tens of thousands of CRS riot squads battling with hippies and leftists in the centre of Paris

00:03:41.680 with a million people in the streets, far bigger than many of the Arab Spring demonstrations

00:03:47.060 which have convulsed world media during the last 12 months, for example.

00:03:52.020 De Gaulle's government tottering, the military talking about intervening,

00:03:56.520 and it becoming so chaotic in France that the ordinary business of just living and governing

00:04:00.660 in the big cities had somewhat ground to a halt.

00:04:03.980 And the left had achieved this by radicalising the student base,

00:04:09.180 by radicalising the politics of the baby boomer generation

00:04:13.760 that had been born immediately after the devastation of the Second European Civil War,

00:04:19.420 as I regard it, really, the Second World War between 1939 and 1945.

00:04:24.060 And Grest was a response to this, because it was felt that the old right was outmoded,

00:04:31.440 could not appeal to people under 40, and there needed to be new thinking, basically.

00:04:37.540 What was the old right at that time? How would you characterize it?

00:04:41.360 I suppose this would be the Tixier-Vigin corps right that looked back to the OAS,

00:04:46.580 that looked back to attempts to overthrow the De Gaulle government by force,

00:04:50.280 that looked back to the painful period in France during occupation and collaboration

00:04:56.020 when people had to make certain existential life-and-death choices.

00:05:02.800 There was a big parting of the ways, of course,

00:05:05.100 between the right that was associated with the resistance

00:05:07.360 and the right that had collaborated

00:05:09.460 and the depth of bitterness that existed between them,

00:05:13.240 accentuated by the Algerian war and crisis of the late 50s and early 60s,

00:05:18.220 was a very, very big divide indeed, which still exists,

00:05:23.400 with the division between the Front National, say, and contemporary France,

00:05:27.460 and the Gaullist right, led by Sarkozy, the current president.

00:05:32.360 So you had all these forces in play,

00:05:35.380 and the desire to create a new right was really the conception of two people,

00:05:40.360 as far as I can see, looking from the outside,

00:05:42.820 Alain de Benoit and Guillaume Fay,

00:05:44.740 with some other people joining in from other countries,

00:05:48.520 Marco Taci from Italy,

00:05:50.720 and Paul, I think it's Paul, isn't it, Krebs from Germany.

00:05:54.960 And they're the names that stick out for me.

00:05:57.940 There are many other people involved,

00:05:59.420 and I think Kress had at least about 8,000 members at one time,

00:06:02.820 although it's dwindled subsequently,

00:06:04.620 because it's largely achieved its theoretical task,

00:06:06.740 which was to reformulate right-wing ideas to the right of conservatism,

00:06:12.480 or from ultra-conservatism stroke,

00:06:15.120 Paleolithic conservatism, as it might be described in the Anglophone world,

00:06:18.840 going outwards and rightwards,

00:06:21.200 to redefine that area,

00:06:23.760 and to give it a new set of teeth.

00:06:27.060 The left would say a new set of masks, actually,

00:06:29.520 and a new dispensation and a new outlook.

00:06:34.520 That's why one of the chief magazines for inculcating this new wave

00:06:38.280 was called New Thinking,

00:06:40.080 New School, almost, literally,

00:06:42.620 Nouvelle-École.

00:06:44.800 Well, actually, to that point,

00:06:47.620 I was just reading Alain de Benoit's

00:06:50.800 Renaissance or Manifesto for a New Europe,

00:06:53.920 and he mentioned that he always thought of himself as a man,

00:06:57.200 or he called himself a man of the right-left,

00:07:00.140 and that is someone who has right values,

00:07:03.240 yet left ideas,

00:07:05.080 or at least is willing to confront the left on their own terms.

00:07:10.380 So was that a,

00:07:12.040 is that kind of, in some ways,

00:07:13.500 how they refashioned and recast conservatism

00:07:19.120 after the 68 Revolution,

00:07:20.700 was to actually take a lot of these new currents

00:07:24.620 and, say, post-structuralism

00:07:26.260 and deconstruction and so on and so forth,

00:07:28.300 take those things seriously

00:07:29.540 and kind of,

00:07:30.720 and through that, reinvent themselves?

00:07:34.900 I think some people might construe it in that way.

00:07:38.840 I would, I think it's different to that.

00:07:41.680 It's true that they've always been prepared

00:07:43.580 to confront the left.

00:07:45.680 A lot of right-wing thinking

00:07:47.420 almost operates in a vacuum

00:07:50.140 where they pretend the left isn't there,

00:07:52.320 except in a reactive way, really.

00:07:55.140 So they've always been concerned with Marxism

00:07:57.640 and that sort of thing,

00:07:58.360 but what I think they did

00:07:59.500 was they dusted down the tradition

00:08:01.460 which they thought had got very hoary

00:08:03.400 and very sort of ancient and cobbler-by

00:08:05.320 and recast it

00:08:06.960 and reformulated it

00:08:08.160 and they also engaged

00:08:09.400 in an enormous amount

00:08:10.480 of what can be regarded

00:08:11.580 as cultural revisionism

00:08:12.960 where all sorts of people

00:08:14.540 from earlier in the century

00:08:15.780 and late in the 19th century,

00:08:18.460 Countercurrents does something

00:08:19.520 quite similar, actually,

00:08:21.040 repositions all these people

00:08:22.760 in a newer context

00:08:24.180 so they can be looked at again.

00:08:26.240 Almost every writer

00:08:27.420 that was prominent

00:08:28.160 on the continent anyway

00:08:29.580 and to a certain extent

00:08:31.040 even in the Anglophone world

00:08:32.500 who could be associated

00:08:34.120 with ultra-positions

00:08:35.840 from the 1870s onwards

00:08:38.140 was repositioned

00:08:39.280 and repackaged

00:08:40.220 and brought back again

00:08:41.720 with certain elements

00:08:42.980 that they wanted to highlight

00:08:43.980 of their thinking pronounced.

00:08:46.160 Another era

00:08:46.820 is that they basically

00:08:47.600 wanted to clip off a bit

00:08:49.220 and jettison

00:08:49.800 somewhat nuanced

00:08:51.480 or sort of detracted from.

00:08:55.560 Who are some of these thinkers?

00:08:57.020 I mean, obviously,

00:08:57.620 Nietzsche and Carl Schmitt

00:08:59.040 come to mind,

00:09:00.000 but what is the constellation

00:09:01.880 of thinkers

00:09:02.680 that the new right reinvented?

00:09:05.360 Yes, it's people like

00:09:06.340 George Sorrell

00:09:07.040 who was on the left

00:09:07.860 as well as the right,

00:09:08.920 people like Curzio Malaparte

00:09:10.380 who was on the left

00:09:11.540 as well as the right.

00:09:13.760 Going back into

00:09:14.560 the Anglophone tradition,

00:09:15.520 people like Thomas Carlyle,

00:09:17.440 but above all,

00:09:18.440 I suppose,

00:09:19.040 Ernst Jünger

00:09:19.780 and the thinkers

00:09:21.160 of what was known

00:09:21.940 as the conservative revolution

00:09:23.320 in Germany

00:09:24.000 between the end

00:09:26.920 of the Great War

00:09:27.920 and about 1930.

00:09:30.240 And these would be

00:09:30.900 Carl Jung,

00:09:31.500 not the analytical psychologist,

00:09:33.720 but the thinker,

00:09:35.020 Oswald Spengler,

00:09:36.660 Molland van den Broek,

00:09:38.400 Ernst Jünger

00:09:39.500 and his brother,

00:09:42.140 Fritz von Salomon,

00:09:43.800 Fritz or Franz,

00:09:45.500 or is it Ernst von Salomon,

00:09:48.100 the historian

00:09:50.160 of that particular movement,

00:09:51.480 Armand Moeller.

00:09:53.380 And there are equivalents

00:09:56.240 in other countries,

00:09:57.100 sometimes there are lesser equivalents

00:09:58.440 and other countries,

00:09:59.440 including the then communist

00:10:00.840 occupied Eastern Europe

00:10:02.320 and Russia.

00:10:04.380 I also think there's another confluence,

00:10:06.260 another strand

00:10:07.060 that comes together

00:10:07.960 in the new right.

00:10:10.000 And this is an attempt

00:10:11.440 to get away from

00:10:14.440 the fascistic right

00:10:16.400 of the early part

00:10:19.080 of the 20th century

00:10:20.120 and yet to steal its clothes

00:10:22.380 and also to repackage it

00:10:24.220 in various ways

00:10:25.440 and to bring it up to date.

00:10:27.780 And all of this,

00:10:28.700 of course,

00:10:28.960 is not original

00:10:29.760 in that it had been done

00:10:30.660 by the left

00:10:31.440 because the phenomenon

00:10:32.760 of the new left,

00:10:34.740 which is quite an old

00:10:36.060 new left indeed,

00:10:37.140 viewed now 50 years on,

00:10:39.500 had been repackaged

00:10:40.940 in the 1960s

00:10:42.620 and early 1970s

00:10:44.520 and straddled

00:10:46.500 the left wing

00:10:47.220 of social democratic

00:10:48.060 and labor movements

00:10:49.000 in Europe

00:10:49.520 all the way out

00:10:50.960 through moderate forms

00:10:52.680 of Euro-communism

00:10:53.820 in comparison

00:10:54.420 to more mainstream

00:10:56.080 prior forms

00:10:56.940 of communism

00:10:57.500 and the old traditional left

00:10:59.600 going through

00:11:01.120 ultimately

00:11:02.800 at their farthest margins

00:11:04.360 to terrorist

00:11:05.620 and urban guerrilla groups

00:11:06.940 that, of course,

00:11:07.960 became quite active

00:11:08.800 in Europe

00:11:09.360 and very notorious

00:11:10.580 in the 1970s.

00:11:11.980 So you had this recasting

00:11:14.020 of the left

00:11:14.680 using anti-Stalinist ideas,

00:11:18.520 non-Stalinist forms

00:11:19.840 of leftism

00:11:20.440 because Stalinism

00:11:21.240 had become so embarrassing,

00:11:23.360 various forms

00:11:23.960 of Trotskism,

00:11:25.600 certain anarchist

00:11:26.420 left wing ideas

00:11:27.260 and syndicalist ideas,

00:11:29.560 certain ideas

00:11:30.840 drawn from existentialism

00:11:32.320 which was presented

00:11:33.700 as a humanism

00:11:34.540 to court

00:11:35.320 and certain ideas

00:11:37.160 that would become

00:11:37.900 post-structuralism

00:11:38.920 and deconstruction.

00:11:40.460 These all

00:11:40.940 sort of bubbled away

00:11:43.500 in the new left cauldron

00:11:44.760 together with the

00:11:46.880 Frankfurt School Marxism

00:11:50.200 which sort of

00:11:51.540 differentiated itself

00:11:52.700 from Marxist-Leninism

00:11:53.860 but led straight

00:11:54.940 to political communism

00:11:56.080 and Frankfurt School Marxism

00:11:58.060 in all its complexity

00:11:59.000 has played a major role

00:12:01.420 in revamping

00:12:03.100 all left

00:12:03.940 and or would-be

00:12:05.000 progressive thought

00:12:05.980 in the last

00:12:07.120 50 to 70 years

00:12:08.640 and provides

00:12:10.460 a continuum

00:12:11.080 of thinking

00:12:11.600 from liberal-minded people

00:12:13.180 who are very moderate

00:12:14.600 in left-wing terms

00:12:15.740 all the way through

00:12:17.180 to the hardest reaches

00:12:18.520 of the left.

00:12:19.820 The Frankfurt School's

00:12:20.620 influence can be seen

00:12:21.760 subtly

00:12:22.900 almost everywhere.

00:12:25.480 Gress never really

00:12:26.280 set itself up

00:12:27.060 as a Frankfurt School,

00:12:28.980 never got official funding

00:12:30.620 and that sort of thing

00:12:31.700 but the idea

00:12:32.980 of a school

00:12:33.720 the idea

00:12:34.580 of a research institute

00:12:35.960 the idea

00:12:38.100 of a new right

00:12:39.180 rather than

00:12:40.440 an old one

00:12:41.200 all were in some ways

00:12:42.860 borrowed from the left.

00:12:44.260 the idea

00:12:45.480 that the right

00:12:46.060 often reacts

00:12:46.780 to the left

00:12:47.420 and to its initiatives

00:12:48.420 was true

00:12:49.580 in this instance.

00:12:51.580 And actually

00:12:51.840 what you're touching on

00:12:53.080 is another key idea

00:12:54.820 with the new right

00:12:56.040 and that is

00:12:56.640 metapolitics

00:12:57.740 and you mentioned

00:12:58.920 that many

00:13:00.360 liberal-minded

00:13:01.520 people

00:13:02.460 in say

00:13:03.040 America

00:13:03.700 who might have

00:13:04.560 totally conventional

00:13:05.740 jobs

00:13:06.440 and are

00:13:06.800 normal

00:13:07.940 so to speak

00:13:09.320 but have

00:13:10.400 these

00:13:11.100 kind of

00:13:12.000 leftist

00:13:12.980 cultural Marxist

00:13:14.200 presumptions

00:13:15.800 they have

00:13:16.780 these starting points

00:13:17.860 and

00:13:18.880 one thing

00:13:20.620 the new right

00:13:21.120 was really trying to do

00:13:22.080 was to build

00:13:22.640 a new starting point

00:13:23.880 for politics

00:13:24.540 I mean

00:13:24.820 politics is about

00:13:25.920 will

00:13:27.620 and power

00:13:28.680 and

00:13:29.320 events

00:13:31.380 and so on

00:13:32.020 and so forth

00:13:32.600 but all of those

00:13:34.100 have a starting point

00:13:35.700 and

00:13:36.260 some convictions

00:13:37.880 and presumptions

00:13:39.000 that

00:13:39.540 give birth

00:13:40.720 to action

00:13:41.940 in the world

00:13:42.660 so

00:13:43.700 maybe

00:13:44.360 Jonathan

00:13:44.900 you could talk

00:13:45.500 a little bit

00:13:46.060 about

00:13:46.560 this

00:13:47.080 metapolitics

00:13:48.360 of the European

00:13:49.300 new right

00:13:49.900 and

00:13:50.260 you know

00:13:50.960 maybe a good

00:13:51.820 place to begin

00:13:52.820 would be

00:13:53.360 how it

00:13:54.280 differs

00:13:55.000 quite radically

00:13:56.140 with

00:13:57.540 the assumptions

00:13:58.760 of

00:13:59.680 much of

00:14:00.400 most all

00:14:01.340 of the

00:14:01.540 conservatism

00:14:02.080 in the United

00:14:02.460 States

00:14:02.860 and

00:14:03.540 much of it

00:14:04.340 in Europe

00:14:04.640 as well

00:14:05.060 yes

00:14:07.020 it's

00:14:07.580 I suppose

00:14:09.360 it's a testament

00:14:10.320 to how rigorous

00:14:11.200 they were

00:14:11.680 in a way

00:14:12.140 because their view

00:14:12.860 of everything

00:14:13.320 is elitist

00:14:14.160 so you storm

00:14:15.780 the citasols

00:14:16.480 of outermost

00:14:17.720 theory

00:14:18.180 first

00:14:18.980 based on the

00:14:20.120 presumption

00:14:20.680 that what is

00:14:21.500 put at a very

00:14:22.540 arcade and high

00:14:23.460 level

00:14:23.840 will filter down

00:14:25.220 over time

00:14:25.980 there was an

00:14:27.440 intermediate

00:14:27.900 attempt

00:14:28.400 when Gress

00:14:29.120 was at its

00:14:29.680 most well

00:14:30.460 formed

00:14:31.020 and functional

00:14:31.720 to influence

00:14:33.280 politics

00:14:33.840 directly

00:14:34.380 because they

00:14:34.840 had something

00:14:35.260 called the

00:14:35.700 clock club

00:14:36.420 the club

00:14:37.100 de hollage

00:14:37.840 which was

00:14:39.020 designed

00:14:39.800 to

00:14:40.540 talk to

00:14:41.920 the various

00:14:42.500 participants

00:14:43.040 on the right

00:14:43.880 including the

00:14:44.440 goalist right

00:14:45.100 as well

00:14:45.700 and that

00:14:47.120 had quite

00:14:47.740 an impact

00:14:48.840 you've got to

00:14:49.680 remember that

00:14:50.100 in France

00:14:50.660 certain tendencies

00:14:51.540 like libertarianism

00:14:52.820 which in the

00:14:53.780 United States

00:14:54.480 is very strong

00:14:55.420 are almost

00:14:56.340 invisible

00:14:56.860 libertarianism

00:14:58.280 is a tiny

00:14:58.820 little strand

00:14:59.640 it does exist

00:15:00.840 in British

00:15:01.240 conservatism

00:15:02.000 as an

00:15:02.880 American

00:15:03.220 implant

00:15:03.900 but it's

00:15:05.220 in continental

00:15:05.980 Europe

00:15:06.500 the bias

00:15:07.460 towards

00:15:07.920 social democracy

00:15:08.780 and

00:15:10.360 the distinction

00:15:12.020 between the

00:15:12.840 European and

00:15:13.500 the Anglo-Saxon

00:15:14.360 models of how

00:15:15.220 you run a

00:15:15.720 market society

00:15:16.620 are so

00:15:18.460 pronounced

00:15:19.160 that those

00:15:20.120 ideas on the

00:15:20.940 right wing of

00:15:21.660 Christian Democrat

00:15:22.360 and centre-right

00:15:23.720 parties never

00:15:24.440 really got

00:15:25.140 anywhere

00:15:25.500 so they're

00:15:26.680 beginning from

00:15:27.180 a different

00:15:27.560 place really

00:15:28.640 they're beginning

00:15:30.240 where

00:15:30.760 ultra-conservative

00:15:31.720 ideas are

00:15:32.400 less out of

00:15:34.780 court

00:15:35.340 on the

00:15:36.160 continent

00:15:36.540 than they

00:15:37.560 are in

00:15:37.920 the

00:15:38.040 anglophone

00:15:38.400 world

00:15:39.100 I'm talking

00:15:40.560 about views

00:15:41.260 that will

00:15:41.500 be considered

00:15:41.940 as ultra

00:15:42.620 rather than

00:15:43.820 just sort of

00:15:44.580 shallowly

00:15:45.120 conservative

00:15:45.700 and the

00:15:48.040 idea is that

00:15:48.680 you create

00:15:49.120 an elite

00:15:49.560 theory

00:15:50.080 this is why

00:15:51.160 the new

00:15:51.460 right in a

00:15:51.920 sense is

00:15:52.280 quite intolerant

00:15:53.300 most of the

00:15:54.600 people who are

00:15:55.120 interested in the

00:15:55.780 new right in the

00:15:56.760 Anglo-Saxon

00:15:57.400 world aren't

00:15:58.100 really of it

00:15:58.740 or on it

00:15:59.240 at all

00:15:59.760 most of the

00:16:01.320 people who

00:16:01.680 write for

00:16:02.000 counter-currents

00:16:02.680 and so on

00:16:03.100 might be

00:16:03.500 influenced by

00:16:04.180 this or that

00:16:04.920 but they're

00:16:05.780 basically a

00:16:07.120 very clever

00:16:07.760 reworking of

00:16:09.000 old right

00:16:09.620 presuppositions

00:16:10.500 the new

00:16:12.060 right is very

00:16:12.840 specific and

00:16:14.240 quite intolerant

00:16:15.340 and has a

00:16:16.320 sort of

00:16:17.600 elitist

00:16:18.600 position of

00:16:19.840 its own

00:16:20.400 which

00:16:21.140 differentiates

00:16:21.940 itself from

00:16:23.280 forms of the

00:16:24.700 right that

00:16:25.060 pre-existed it

00:16:26.060 and although

00:16:26.700 they've never

00:16:27.120 purged people

00:16:27.920 who think

00:16:28.280 differently and

00:16:28.940 that sort of

00:16:29.400 thing and

00:16:29.700 there's a

00:16:29.940 wide eclecticism

00:16:31.440 that's

00:16:31.760 practiced

00:16:32.380 certain cardinal

00:16:35.680 differences will

00:16:36.440 be the complete

00:16:37.020 rejection of

00:16:37.640 conspiracy theory

00:16:38.620 and conspiratorial

00:16:39.920 ideas and the

00:16:41.920 complete rejection

00:16:42.720 of what we'll

00:16:43.620 call anti-Zionist

00:16:45.260 conspiratorial

00:16:46.060 ideas this is

00:16:47.560 quite a complicated

00:16:48.220 area but the

00:16:49.840 new right formally

00:16:50.700 does repudiate all

00:16:51.860 that and looks

00:16:53.820 to explain the

00:16:54.580 world in a

00:16:55.100 different way

00:16:55.940 the enemy is

00:16:57.280 seen as what's

00:16:58.440 loosely and

00:16:59.040 actuarially defined

00:17:00.020 as liberalism

00:17:00.840 which is seen as

00:17:01.920 a global system

00:17:03.000 of conquest and

00:17:04.460 denial that all

00:17:05.800 of the western

00:17:06.340 regimes have gone

00:17:07.200 in for since

00:17:08.480 1945 if not

00:17:09.980 before and

00:17:11.700 liberal humanism

00:17:12.540 and its attendant

00:17:13.280 values of

00:17:13.840 materialism and

00:17:14.640 equality

00:17:15.140 transfixed as

00:17:17.760 they are into a

00:17:18.440 global marketplace

00:17:19.300 which seeks to

00:17:20.740 subordinate the

00:17:21.400 nation state to

00:17:22.180 its own economic

00:17:23.680 activities is the

00:17:25.760 dominant ideology

00:17:26.680 of the era so

00:17:28.200 they see classical

00:17:29.040 liberalism reworked

00:17:31.000 through kentianism

00:17:31.820 and now coming

00:17:32.500 back very much

00:17:33.320 with a full market

00:17:34.100 vigor in the

00:17:35.220 1980s as the

00:17:37.200 enemy market

00:17:38.880 capitalism is seen

00:17:40.200 almost in left

00:17:41.200 wing terms at

00:17:42.040 times as an

00:17:43.480 enemy of peoples

00:17:44.360 as an enemy of

00:17:45.360 ethnicities as an

00:17:47.160 enemy of standalone

00:17:48.240 racial groups as

00:17:49.960 an enemy of

00:17:50.540 national communities

00:17:51.420 and it's seen as

00:17:52.840 an enemy of the

00:17:53.880 whole world not

00:17:55.480 just europe and

00:17:57.280 the white population

00:18:00.100 of the world's

00:18:01.060 population so it's

00:18:02.640 seen as an enemy of

00:18:03.680 the peoples and

00:18:04.600 nations of the

00:18:05.200 world

00:18:05.600 and he also

00:18:07.060 benoit defines it

00:18:09.400 as americanism in

00:18:10.700 some way and

00:18:11.360 that's right i've

00:18:12.900 always thought that

00:18:14.200 there was there's

00:18:14.880 possibly that well

00:18:15.660 there was likely a

00:18:17.280 a little bit of

00:18:18.260 maybe french

00:18:18.860 chauvinism bubbling

00:18:20.460 up in that but

00:18:21.760 that doesn't

00:18:22.700 diminish the

00:18:23.500 legitimacy of the

00:18:24.480 critique but also

00:18:26.360 they they have this

00:18:27.200 idea of a kind of

00:18:28.120 individualization and

00:18:29.900 massification as as

00:18:32.960 what's happening so

00:18:33.760 do you think maybe

00:18:35.400 talk a little bit

00:18:36.100 more about this

00:18:36.820 american notion is

00:18:38.280 is this something

00:18:38.940 that you know they

00:18:40.020 were experiencing

00:18:41.200 this very directly

00:18:42.640 with the cold war

00:18:44.080 with with nato

00:18:45.920 with a kind you

00:18:47.240 know two dueling

00:18:48.200 empires one of

00:18:49.660 them one of which

00:18:50.600 was certainly

00:18:51.100 american um do

00:18:53.660 you think that was

00:18:54.880 a basis of a lot

00:18:56.520 of their thought do

00:18:57.280 you do you think

00:18:57.680 they were maybe

00:18:58.080 even wrong about

00:18:59.340 um the this this

00:19:01.540 ideology of

00:19:02.560 individualization and

00:19:03.640 americanism that

00:19:04.460 that that's what

00:19:05.120 america is is

00:19:06.100 promoting around the

00:19:07.080 world and so on and

00:19:07.820 so forth

00:19:08.160 yes it's a sort of

00:19:10.980 it's an interesting

00:19:11.520 conundrum i think

00:19:12.340 there is a degree to

00:19:13.000 which people from

00:19:13.620 an anglo-saxon

00:19:14.400 perspective even

00:19:15.800 from canada and

00:19:16.620 britain outside the

00:19:17.540 united states can

00:19:19.420 never be totally

00:19:20.300 satisfied with the

00:19:21.520 grass outlook which

00:19:22.920 is modeled upon

00:19:23.820 continental european

00:19:25.300 norms and standards

00:19:26.540 a visceral anti-americanism

00:19:29.080 which is cultural

00:19:30.560 which has a lot to do

00:19:32.540 with a hostility to

00:19:34.680 pronounce cultural

00:19:36.480 power soft power

00:19:37.740 manifested by the

00:19:39.260 united states

00:19:40.080 manifested by the

00:19:41.260 hollywood movie

00:19:41.940 industry manifested by

00:19:44.040 global media

00:19:45.200 uh entertainment and

00:19:47.080 infotainment as it's

00:19:48.380 become and has grown up

00:19:49.980 even more pronounced

00:19:51.280 at least since when

00:19:52.100 gress began commenting

00:19:53.540 on it in the early

00:19:55.040 nine to late 1960s

00:19:56.660 uh i once showed some

00:19:58.500 of their publications

00:19:59.520 uh via scorpion so

00:20:01.640 that there were

00:20:01.980 translations of them at

00:20:03.100 any rate

00:20:03.640 to somebody who was on

00:20:06.160 the what you might call

00:20:07.540 traditional ultra

00:20:09.120 conservative right and

00:20:10.300 he was appalled by in

00:20:11.400 his own terms how

00:20:12.680 left-wing they were

00:20:13.760 how anti-american

00:20:15.620 how anti-nato

00:20:17.220 uh there's de benoit's

00:20:19.240 famous remark that if

00:20:20.320 he had to choose sides

00:20:21.580 he would prefer to be

00:20:23.340 dominated by russia

00:20:24.480 than by america

00:20:26.080 and that he would

00:20:28.360 prefer soviet tanks

00:20:30.260 to american ones

00:20:31.740 because underneath the

00:20:33.480 carapace of communism

00:20:34.620 a european heartbeat

00:20:36.220 still beat there in the

00:20:37.440 old russian colossus

00:20:38.580 which of course has thrown

00:20:39.940 communism off in the last

00:20:41.160 twenty years and de

00:20:42.660 benoit and gress were

00:20:43.440 straight in there at the

00:20:44.300 very beginning when

00:20:45.060 communism fell to

00:20:46.660 influence new political

00:20:48.080 forces that were

00:20:48.960 obviously churning away

00:20:50.820 in russia at that time

00:20:52.060 but um well you know

00:20:54.580 jonathan i i remember

00:20:56.320 hearing you say and i

00:20:57.300 i've repeated this line

00:20:58.500 um that you know

00:21:00.400 communism might attack

00:21:01.740 the body but americanism

00:21:03.960 and liberalism wrought the

00:21:05.420 soul and uh i think

00:21:07.400 that is uh quite true

00:21:09.600 although i i don't

00:21:10.980 exactly want to be

00:21:11.820 defending um you know

00:21:13.280 kim jong-il's society

00:21:14.580 or anything like that

00:21:15.600 i i no doubt that that

00:21:17.240 is um quite miserable

00:21:18.580 uh but you know i i've

00:21:19.980 had these conversations

00:21:20.820 with uh paul gottfried

00:21:22.680 about the new right

00:21:24.200 and he was someone who

00:21:25.220 was actually uh involved

00:21:27.320 in um in telos telos

00:21:29.820 journal which um was

00:21:31.900 was certainly integral in

00:21:33.680 in bringing uh the new

00:21:35.520 right ideas into the

00:21:36.640 to the western world

00:21:37.660 and and so on and so

00:21:38.520 forth and one criticism

00:21:40.420 he had was that the

00:21:42.600 same criticism of the

00:21:43.740 ultra-conservative you

00:21:44.680 mentioned uh that

00:21:45.960 they're kind of a there's

00:21:47.280 almost a leftist kind of

00:21:49.320 almost reactionary

00:21:50.720 anti-americanism uh to

00:21:52.960 them in the sense um

00:21:54.500 that you know they'll

00:21:55.700 they'll defend

00:21:56.300 multiculturalism and

00:21:57.940 they'll think that you

00:21:58.960 know we're united we in

00:22:01.080 the muslims and islams

00:22:02.600 we're united against the

00:22:04.140 you know evil force of

00:22:06.020 hege of uh homogeneity

00:22:07.960 and hegemony from from

00:22:09.280 america and so and so

00:22:10.120 forth and there's

00:22:11.160 obviously kernels of

00:22:12.400 truth to all this um

00:22:13.860 you know i i think maybe

00:22:15.260 there are people in in

00:22:16.860 america or there's some

00:22:18.160 ideology where they they

00:22:19.500 imagine the whole world

00:22:20.580 as some horrible strip

00:22:21.980 mall where you can you

00:22:23.480 know buy junk at cheap

00:22:26.320 prices and so on and so

00:22:27.320 forth um but but they're

00:22:29.340 almost and i think that's

00:22:30.700 true and i think we should

00:22:31.660 criticize that as as

00:22:33.100 traditionalists but um

00:22:35.080 but i i don't know

00:22:36.120 there there's it seems

00:22:37.220 to maybe he's not really

00:22:38.380 formulating his enemy

00:22:39.960 correctly um when he

00:22:41.620 locates it like that and

00:22:42.680 when he thinks that he

00:22:43.960 might have all these

00:22:44.840 things in common uh with

00:22:46.800 you know you know

00:22:47.620 muslims who too are

00:22:49.100 fighting against

00:22:49.820 multiculturalism do you

00:22:50.880 think is my criticism

00:22:52.000 too too harsh there or

00:22:53.720 um no i think it's

00:22:55.500 sort of the too much

00:22:56.120 american criticism of

00:22:57.400 grass and of the school

00:22:58.420 it represents um

00:23:00.520 there are slightly

00:23:02.040 different tendencies

00:23:02.760 between fire and

00:23:03.720 de benoit and there

00:23:05.440 are some people who

00:23:06.100 say de benoit has

00:23:07.180 moderated a lot in

00:23:08.260 recent years

00:23:09.140 um uh that that's uh

00:23:12.680 that's a complicated

00:23:13.800 one because he he now

00:23:16.680 stands for the peoples

00:23:18.300 and nations within and

00:23:19.740 between nation states

00:23:20.900 because he's he's

00:23:22.980 begun to recognize that

00:23:24.380 if something isn't done

00:23:26.120 relatively shortly the

00:23:27.260 mass immigration into the

00:23:28.360 western world is reaching

00:23:29.720 a point now where it's

00:23:30.660 becoming semi-irreversible

00:23:32.300 yes because there are so

00:23:33.380 many people here and so

00:23:34.980 many who've come in and

00:23:36.560 to pretend it's not

00:23:37.320 happening or to adopt a

00:23:38.480 purist position that

00:23:39.960 somehow in some fantasy

00:23:41.080 land in the future they're

00:23:42.020 all going to go back is

00:23:44.140 um something he's not

00:23:45.940 prepared to do

00:23:46.640 philosophically and he's

00:23:47.660 had a lot of criticism for

00:23:48.740 that of course um because

00:23:51.300 there's no sort of um

00:23:53.760 white homeland model floating

00:23:56.840 around inside europe so

00:23:59.460 it's a very difficult

00:24:00.840 situation for any new

00:24:04.040 right or post new right

00:24:05.340 as it now is to be in

00:24:06.840 but um he there is a

00:24:11.720 visceral anti-americanism

00:24:12.800 which is part of the

00:24:13.600 americ french tradition

00:24:14.660 yeah and it is part of the

00:24:16.120 tradition of french

00:24:16.820 politics uh left center

00:24:19.120 and right and it's just

00:24:20.800 there there is a rivalry

00:24:22.460 between france and the

00:24:23.480 united states irrespective

00:24:24.660 of the revolutionary

00:24:25.960 heritage that is there

00:24:27.920 the security services

00:24:29.080 spied on each other

00:24:30.060 throughout much of the

00:24:30.760 20th century even though

00:24:32.380 they're nominal allies and

00:24:33.660 so on they fought together

00:24:35.280 in most wars but this

00:24:37.200 tension culturally and

00:24:38.720 nationally despite the

00:24:40.460 fact the united states a

00:24:41.240 much more powerful state

00:24:42.400 confederation than france

00:24:43.740 in its present form could

00:24:44.800 ever be is nonetheless

00:24:46.320 there and although de

00:24:48.320 benoit is always sort of

00:24:49.600 um eschewed sort of crude

00:24:51.280 french nationalism there is

00:24:53.160 the french nationalist and

00:24:54.900 the chauvinist element to

00:24:56.200 it which is quite

00:24:57.520 pronounced um but that is

00:25:00.320 part of the continental

00:25:02.080 um attitude uh i would

00:25:05.600 always slightly deflect it

00:25:07.100 by saying that there are

00:25:08.040 many cultural figures in

00:25:09.160 the united states that the

00:25:11.420 new right prizes and if

00:25:13.840 they were engaged in crude

00:25:15.100 american baiting and burning

00:25:16.720 of the american flag like

00:25:18.020 left-wing students right

00:25:19.380 during the vietnam war in

00:25:20.660 europe in america and

00:25:21.860 elsewhere um this wouldn't

00:25:24.300 come across and so a lot

00:25:26.480 of the repositioning of

00:25:27.700 people involves people like

00:25:30.040 um ezra pound and involves

00:25:32.700 people like t.s elliott to a

00:25:34.540 lesser extent and involves

00:25:36.700 people like jack london and

00:25:39.400 so they're very much aware of

00:25:41.020 these figures in the united

00:25:42.440 states who are anti-american in

00:25:46.240 terms of the perceived ideology

00:25:48.300 of what's regarded as

00:25:50.100 americanism abroad

00:25:51.220 one of the facts about all

00:25:53.040 societies of course is that

00:25:54.160 they're all ideological but

00:25:55.920 the people who live in them

00:25:56.800 don't think they are

00:25:57.800 so the ordinary american would

00:25:59.860 be amazed and even slightly

00:26:01.180 appalled that there's such a

00:26:02.280 thing as americanism but to

00:26:04.340 people outside the united

00:26:05.520 states particularly those who

00:26:07.580 feel they're on the brunt of

00:26:08.800 the enormous power the soft

00:26:11.080 power america has in the

00:26:12.280 marketplace and culturally

00:26:14.160 particularly at the mass level

00:26:16.900 it's the popular mass culture

00:26:19.040 which uh traditional europeans

00:26:21.420 clearly so americanized now in

00:26:23.200 europe um and also in eastern

00:26:26.180 europe post-communist to a

00:26:28.080 degree it's that that they're

00:26:29.760 reacting against i would deny

00:26:31.940 that they ever engaged in crude

00:26:33.700 uh american baiting and

00:26:35.960 anti-americanism although some of

00:26:38.100 their imagery at their high point

00:26:39.600 could come quite close to that

00:26:41.180 there's also the need for an

00:26:43.040 enemy and they wanted to

00:26:45.820 redefine the enemy away from the

00:26:47.580 traditional enemies of the old

00:26:49.300 right and the new enemy was

00:26:51.900 global liberalism powered by

00:26:54.100 america and that appeared to be

00:26:57.820 a left-wing notion until you

00:26:59.100 worked out what they were really

00:27:00.260 saying and in some ways what

00:27:02.500 they were attempting to smuggle

00:27:03.740 back in a new guise they were

00:27:05.680 very much like the new left which

00:27:07.180 engaged in very harsh critiques of

00:27:09.020 the soviet union herbert marcus's

00:27:11.540 book soviet marxism and so on it

00:27:14.760 largely just rested as a

00:27:16.140 theoretical level but it can't be

00:27:18.400 said that the new left just

00:27:19.760 tamely went along with

00:27:21.140 stalinism they didn't

00:27:22.800 concentrate on the crimes and the

00:27:24.220 horrors too much but they

00:27:26.060 certainly concentrated

00:27:27.200 theoretically on the hostility to

00:27:29.700 the way so-called real existing

00:27:32.640 socialist societies had worked

00:27:34.300 out and that disfavoring of the

00:27:36.940 old left by the new left was one

00:27:39.920 of the tiny straws in the wind that

00:27:43.080 portended the collapse of the

00:27:45.180 soviet bloc yeah there was a tiny

00:27:47.080 little brick that was thrown but a

00:27:49.680 proportion of the left in the west

00:27:51.660 renounced the soviet union and all

00:27:53.800 its works up to a point and that did

00:27:57.200 have an effect generationally it had

00:27:58.820 an effect on the neither washington

00:28:00.800 nor moscow generation that grew up

00:28:03.520 after 68 i i think that's absolutely

00:28:06.900 true when it loses the the legitimacy

00:28:09.480 amongst the vanguard intellectuals

00:28:11.840 actually i think this is um this

00:28:13.740 brings up an interesting transition

00:28:15.280 and that is to a person you mentioned

00:28:17.840 earlier and that is guillaume fay

00:28:19.880 um who um who's who's two of whose

00:28:22.880 works have just been translated by

00:28:24.800 arctos uh publishers arctos is really

00:28:27.500 uh doing god's work so to speak by uh

00:28:30.840 by bringing new right authors and other

00:28:33.180 authors um into the english language

00:28:35.500 and yeah they're doing a considerable

00:28:38.540 task there yes and um fay's work

00:28:42.020 archaeofuturism um it actually includes

00:28:45.120 a chapter in which he uh voices many

00:28:49.260 criticisms of benoit and the and the

00:28:51.320 the new right some of which are run

00:28:54.020 parallel to what we've been talking

00:28:55.620 about um but he uh he also decides to

00:28:59.820 you know reposition himself and and define

00:29:02.660 a new enemy um and and he also just has

00:29:06.300 this uh almost this visionary apocalyptic

00:29:10.800 um notion of a a of a massive economic

00:29:14.600 collapse which might seem like a fairly

00:29:17.660 realistic possibility uh these days uh but

00:29:21.740 also what is ultimately a white empire

00:29:25.200 stretching from uh france to siberia uh on

00:29:30.460 the continent so um this book was a really

00:29:33.740 an event when it was published it's it's

00:29:35.580 quite inspiring and it you know reminiscent

00:29:38.080 of nietzsche and some of its you know

00:29:40.200 pronouncements but maybe you can just

00:29:41.780 talk a little bit about uh this other

00:29:43.920 figure and and where he's pushing many of

00:29:47.480 these currents um more recently

00:29:50.300 yes i think he's um he's got rather fed up

00:29:55.160 with the uh metapolitical distancing and the

00:29:57.520 pathos of difference that gress has always

00:29:59.780 gone in for and de benoit has always gone

00:30:01.660 in for de benoit has uh been loathed to

00:30:05.080 categorize himself doesn't even like the

00:30:07.180 conjuration new right and regards their

00:30:10.140 thought as totally abstract and although it

00:30:12.940 can be seized and used by various political

00:30:14.880 forces outside of the political arena to a

00:30:17.600 large degree um there have been times when

00:30:20.600 he's been less uh fussy if you like and

00:30:25.480 less um given over to such sort of uh

00:30:29.320 ivory tower speculation but gress on the

00:30:32.120 whole has kept to that trajectory whereas

00:30:33.780 five wants a much more political

00:30:35.140 involvement and wants to be much more

00:30:37.820 hands-on and interventionist and he's

00:30:41.520 he's he's become and ended up seemingly

00:30:44.860 from the outside much more critical of

00:30:47.380 mass immigration than de benoit is right

00:30:49.980 that seems to be the tendency he's also

00:30:53.900 much more hostile to islam than de benoit is

00:30:58.160 because he sees islam as another rival

00:31:00.800 civilization that is now putting down

00:31:03.640 considerable markers in the european

00:31:05.580 continent oh and although there are points

00:31:08.260 of symmetry and attraction and repulsion in

00:31:11.820 the end he doesn't want um that presence to be

00:31:15.140 pronounced in europe where it's extraordinarily

00:31:17.340 marked in france of course because of the

00:31:19.300 backwash of the algerian war and crisis and

00:31:22.620 civil contestation in france there's four to

00:31:25.120 five million algerians who live in france

00:31:27.180 who um were part of the chaotic breakdown

00:31:32.620 break up of french algeria or algeria francais

00:31:36.060 well it wasn't just the europeans who came back

00:31:38.860 the million pied mar who came back to algeria who'd

00:31:42.420 settled uh uh there and thought they were to be

00:31:45.480 there forever in a part of the french empire uh or the

00:31:50.280 idea that algeria was as french as um marseille where

00:31:53.920 they many of them ended up many of them became the

00:31:57.140 background or core voters for the front national in its

00:31:59.900 early years traumatized and alienated by their having to leave behind them in a

00:32:05.060 month almost everything that they built up in

00:32:07.380 algeria if there was no room for them as they

00:32:10.600 surmised under the fln the um nationalist algerians

00:32:14.920 uh not islamists of course who came to power after the

00:32:18.760 revolution against french rule

00:32:20.760 now fai i think has wanted to sketch out a political program a bit like what

00:32:28.660 spender does at the end of the uh decline of the west right when he

00:32:32.260 talks about a coming caesarism because they see i think he thinks

00:32:35.740 there's a danger of despair internally particularly amongst uh

00:32:40.120 people to the right of ultra conservatism and he wants to provide a

00:32:44.700 visionary almost sort of revelatory counterposition to that

00:32:48.960 so that uh there are opportunities in the real world

00:32:52.940 not just theoretically that can be seized at various points in the future

00:32:57.420 and that not all of the forces uh are running against the traditional right

00:33:02.280 as they may well seem to be at this time

00:33:04.720 do you think that his uh archaeofuturism is a is merely a vision and he actually

00:33:12.860 the final chapter of the book he is reads like a novella where you actually

00:33:18.240 experience a day in the life of of the new regime

00:33:20.960 uh do you think it is is purely fantasy or

00:33:24.660 that this is this is going to be a a foundational text of a uh of another you

00:33:32.420 know reborn uh right on the continent

00:33:35.080 one doesn't know he's thrown a bottle into the sea with a manuscript in it quite

00:33:40.800 literally um one doesn't know i mean

00:33:43.200 what they're doing is essentially what he's doing is very much reaching back as

00:33:47.120 well as going forwards hence the whole notion of archaiofuturism to what the

00:33:51.620 conservative revolutionaries did in the 1920s

00:33:54.220 because they definitely historically are seen

00:33:57.520 as one of the main reasons why the weimar republic collapsed

00:34:02.380 right and uh although they were just theorists and all they did was produce

00:34:06.840 books and magazines and they were loosely aligned with each other

00:34:10.460 and they had no overall correlation although they were a cultural movement

00:34:15.780 they definitely contributed to that absence of respect and that part of the

00:34:22.600 spectrum that disacknowledged the weimar republic

00:34:25.300 and didn't allow it to settle as the

00:34:29.520 bonn and berlin republic since 1948 when it was created under adonai

00:34:34.460 uh with french british and american occupation of western germany

00:34:39.580 has done this republic uh has lasted

00:34:44.060 whereas weimar did not yeah and one of the delegitimization tools

00:34:49.340 was not to accept it as a legitimate regime

00:34:53.560 and what fa is doing is he's trying to get people not to accept

00:34:57.200 the present situation as a form of legitimacy

00:35:00.620 and continuation he's trying to get them to think beyond it

00:35:05.080 that there is this view that somehow this present liberal structure is

00:35:09.480 different different to communism different to the situation that

00:35:13.740 existed in europe between the second and first wars

00:35:16.480 um that somehow it doesn't have a taste of death in its mouth

00:35:20.740 that it's going to go on forever or for a very long period

00:35:24.000 and it's basically cementing everything else underneath it

00:35:27.740 it's a sort of a juggernaut linked to world global capitalism and

00:35:32.280 global free trade so-called and actual

00:35:35.840 and he's trying to posit a sort of apocalyptian element

00:35:39.860 which he knows can move people in a way that often rather rational arguments

00:35:44.400 can't yeah so he's he's adopting multiple strategies in doing these things

00:35:49.300 even involving a certain element of fictional

00:35:51.740 and artistic sort of uh license in what is otherwise a theoretical work

00:35:57.460 right let's um let's move on to another very important issue about the new right

00:36:03.300 and that is the pagan question and um one of benoit's major books is entitled on being a pagan

00:36:11.440 and um even though fae might be a little more generous uh let's say towards christianity

00:36:19.220 uh generally speaking the new right is a not only a pagan but a kind of anti-christian movement

00:36:25.020 and they they certainly see uh christianity in a secularized and and americanized form uh as one of the chief enemies

00:36:33.700 so maybe you could talk a little bit about why they they chose to do that

00:36:39.300 and that's certainly also a major break with the old right

00:36:42.820 uh which you know in in the french context was staunchly catholic

00:36:47.580 yes and still is to a large degree um the traditionist wing of the front national

00:36:54.120 um which may form a new party now now that the le pen's daughter has taken the party leftwards

00:37:00.820 and made it into a populist vehicle um it's sort of a because she's changed the ideological orientation of the fn

00:37:08.960 right um under her father jean-marie it used to be um a sort of neo-traditionalist organization

00:37:17.820 that was very much old right although it used populist slogans and catchphrases

00:37:22.940 and sought popular and mass appeal it was essentially an old right traditional organization

00:37:28.320 with quite a lot of people in the leadership who were influenced by the new right

00:37:31.860 that's what the new right has had it's had influence on people who are involved

00:37:36.320 which is in some ways a credit to its success

00:37:38.980 on the pagan point it again comes back to its elitism

00:37:43.660 the view is that you must settle the ultimate questions first

00:37:47.780 it's a form of anti-politics in a way

00:37:50.500 when you ask a politician an awkward question he always evades it

00:37:54.160 uh the thinking being that he must not offend people

00:37:57.460 because everyone he offends is a prospective voter lost

00:38:00.520 and that's not how you do populist politics

00:38:03.180 but if you're doing anti-populist politics or if you're doing elitist philosophical politics

00:38:09.340 you've got to decide what you believe metaphysically first

00:38:12.820 rather than pretend that you can be all things to all people at a later date

00:38:17.520 and so they look very hard at western civilization

00:38:20.980 they believe that christianity was dying slowly

00:38:24.460 and was becoming a preserve of the older generations

00:38:27.520 even in catholic countries where it still had a lot of kick

00:38:30.800 and they decided that if europe was to be revived

00:38:33.840 you'd have to go right back

00:38:36.020 to pre-christian pagan antiquity

00:38:39.220 and update many of the belief systems involved

00:38:42.060 indeed as always with these things

00:38:44.500 it's a bit paradoxical

00:38:45.800 because although culturally there's a strong classicizing

00:38:48.700 grieco-roman tendency in gress

00:38:50.600 hence the name

00:38:51.840 the system that the benoit likes is the odinic one

00:38:54.940 the nordic one

00:38:55.880 featuring odin and thor and loki and that sort of thing

00:38:59.540 and odinism is a tiny little strand in sort of western europe

00:39:04.700 even in northern europe

00:39:06.020 and yet what they've done of course is they've been extreme

00:39:10.620 because in a sense they are extremists

00:39:13.140 they're not moderates by nature

00:39:14.720 so they have deliberately targeted areas

00:39:17.920 which are outside the comfort zone

00:39:20.580 of most people who traditionally regarded themselves as right wing

00:39:24.480 and they've done so philosophically rather than emotionally

00:39:28.260 although these things always have an emotional core to them

00:39:31.400 and they've done so in a considered manner

00:39:35.080 which is essentially nietzschean really

00:39:37.140 they thought that man needs a belief system

00:39:39.780 the ultimate questions of life and death have to be answered

00:39:43.200 the left can't answer them

00:39:44.880 because it says that they can't be answered

00:39:46.440 because they're not there

00:39:47.500 atheism is impossible except for individuals

00:39:51.500 but it's not possible for the right

00:39:53.880 you have to confront the enormous swathe of people

00:39:57.260 that believe in a creative force

00:40:00.020 a creative being

00:40:00.860 a supreme being

00:40:01.880 however it's put

00:40:03.280 whatever system they adopt

00:40:04.620 the human majority

00:40:06.060 when it's given a choice

00:40:08.440 opts for these systems

00:40:09.840 it appears even in extremely secular

00:40:12.800 northern and western europe

00:40:14.120 at this time

00:40:15.300 two-thirds of people

00:40:16.720 are still quite residually religious

00:40:18.960 in their private and actual opinions

00:40:21.400 and you have to have a system

00:40:23.720 that appeals to metaphysical certainty

00:40:27.100 and they've decided to adopt

00:40:29.520 a pagan system without equivocation

00:40:31.960 and without being embarrassed about it

00:40:34.380 and then by doing so

00:40:36.200 they're able to define it in their own light

00:40:38.100 consequently appalling

00:40:40.400 a large number of western pagans

00:40:42.100 of course

00:40:42.660 who thought it was all about

00:40:44.880 worshipping

00:40:45.500 the moon goddess

00:40:47.340 or the earth

00:40:48.220 or the goddess

00:40:49.380 or various celtic formulations

00:40:51.320 linked to feminism

00:40:53.540 and liberal humanist nostrums

00:40:57.400 so the idea that all pagan views

00:41:01.020 tend in their direction

00:41:01.980 is of course quite false

00:41:03.240 just as the idea

00:41:04.440 that all christian views

00:41:05.520 tend to a sort of socialism

00:41:06.740 as regards the third world

00:41:08.760 is also quite false

00:41:10.000 there's a spectrum in pagan

00:41:12.240 as against christian beliefs

00:41:13.800 i've never found their

00:41:15.180 anti-christianity to be shrill or stupid

00:41:17.240 and there's another reason

00:41:18.220 why they adopted it

00:41:19.180 and that is because

00:41:20.500 they reject conspiracy theory

00:41:22.080 and because they reject

00:41:23.500 conspiratorial explanations of reality

00:41:25.500 you have to have process

00:41:27.680 versions of reality

00:41:29.380 which are philosophical

00:41:30.880 and dialectical

00:41:32.000 and those sit very well

00:41:33.840 with pagan

00:41:34.440 and with pre-christian ideas

00:41:36.100 they regard

00:41:37.240 conspiracy theory

00:41:38.300 as christian ultimately

00:41:40.400 and as reductive

00:41:41.740 and as coming from catholicism

00:41:43.720 their own

00:41:44.760 supranational

00:41:46.280 and yet somehow

00:41:47.320 national religious tradition

00:41:48.700 so they're doing

00:41:50.200 several things at once

00:41:51.340 they're rejecting christianity

00:41:53.160 they're rejecting

00:41:54.160 conspiracy theory

00:41:55.340 they're rejecting

00:41:56.560 blaming the usual suspects

00:41:58.160 for the whole of the modern world

00:42:00.280 and for everything

00:42:01.100 that you don't like

00:42:01.820 about modernity

00:42:02.640 and they wanted to think

00:42:04.240 out things again

00:42:05.160 using the rational

00:42:06.960 and spiritual ideas

00:42:08.080 of the ancient world

00:42:09.120 that they believe

00:42:10.380 are the core european values

00:42:12.900 underneath everything

00:42:13.900 right

00:42:14.520 this puts them on a tradition

00:42:16.320 this puts themselves

00:42:17.400 on a collision course

00:42:18.480 with doing

00:42:19.680 successful practical politics

00:42:23.020 in the present

00:42:23.740 circumstances

00:42:25.120 but because they're

00:42:26.300 an elitist tendency

00:42:27.280 they're not worried

00:42:28.020 about that

00:42:28.540 you see

00:42:28.980 what they're doing

00:42:30.480 is splintering the atom

00:42:32.320 they're trying to create

00:42:34.220 an explosion

00:42:34.940 by being as radical

00:42:36.620 as they are

00:42:37.340 they're not

00:42:38.120 attempting to

00:42:39.300 comfort people

00:42:40.940 they're not attempting

00:42:42.080 to

00:42:42.800 be nice conservatives

00:42:45.820 if you like

00:42:46.560 right

00:42:46.880 they're attempting

00:42:47.720 to break the mold

00:42:48.780 and to get people

00:42:49.780 to think in a different way

00:42:51.100 and also on this line

00:42:53.160 of thought

00:42:53.820 I would say

00:42:54.960 most conservatives

00:42:56.000 today

00:42:56.960 in America

00:42:58.240 or the continent

00:42:59.140 or elsewhere

00:42:59.680 they would probably say

00:43:01.480 that there's a kind of

00:43:02.340 force of modernity

00:43:03.860 or secularism

00:43:05.540 secular humanism

00:43:06.540 what have you

00:43:07.580 liberalism

00:43:08.580 that is antithetical

00:43:10.480 towards Christianity

00:43:11.600 so it's kind of

00:43:12.840 the modern world

00:43:13.800 is beating up

00:43:14.860 on the old faith

00:43:16.520 the new right

00:43:18.660 turns that on its head

00:43:20.140 and they essentially

00:43:21.480 see

00:43:22.220 Americanism

00:43:23.580 global liberalism

00:43:24.660 global capitalism

00:43:25.600 as a

00:43:27.020 final expression

00:43:28.600 of Christianity

00:43:29.500 that Christianity

00:43:31.100 was the religion

00:43:32.080 that gave you

00:43:33.580 a way out

00:43:34.260 of religion

00:43:34.900 so to speak

00:43:36.460 so talk a little bit

00:43:38.020 about that

00:43:38.400 just the particular

00:43:39.600 the particularity

00:43:40.820 of their anti-Christianity

00:43:42.240 it's not an anti-Christianity

00:43:43.720 like say

00:43:44.720 Christopher Hitchens

00:43:45.720 or some of these

00:43:47.060 you know

00:43:47.660 ultra-secularists

00:43:48.860 who think that Christianity

00:43:49.800 is just dark superstition

00:43:52.000 or something like that

00:43:52.760 it's something

00:43:53.380 quite different

00:43:54.280 yes that's right

00:43:56.100 in some ways

00:43:56.960 it's a very rational critique

00:43:58.340 but the thing about

00:43:59.520 the new right

00:44:00.140 that it's very rationalist

00:44:01.740 but not in an 18th century

00:44:03.420 in an Enlightenment way

00:44:04.500 it's rationalist

00:44:05.540 in an ancient Greek way

00:44:06.780 most of its arguments

00:44:08.720 are not decibel arguments

00:44:10.000 they're actually quite refined

00:44:11.360 purist

00:44:12.660 ultra-European arguments

00:44:14.480 what Nietzsche tried

00:44:15.960 to do at his best

00:44:16.840 even though there's

00:44:17.440 a lot of emotional

00:44:18.240 storm and stress

00:44:19.520 and romanticism

00:44:20.380 in Nietzsche's

00:44:21.020 way of saying it

00:44:22.320 I think in

00:44:24.560 relation to Christianity

00:44:26.380 they see

00:44:27.940 the secularization

00:44:30.200 which has occurred

00:44:31.240 in Europe

00:44:31.980 in Christianity

00:44:33.340 and the existence

00:44:35.140 of a seeding

00:44:36.060 Protestant

00:44:36.460 Evangelical Christianity

00:44:37.720 alongside secularization

00:44:39.880 in the United States

00:44:41.100 as the outcome

00:44:42.520 of tendencies

00:44:43.280 that are pregnant

00:44:44.200 within the religion

00:44:45.340 itself

00:44:45.920 no other religion

00:44:47.540 on earth

00:44:48.020 unless communism

00:44:49.040 is forced

00:44:49.740 a degree of state

00:44:50.540 atheism

00:44:51.120 in China

00:44:52.060 for example

00:44:52.720 has secularized

00:44:54.440 in the way

00:44:55.280 that western societies

00:44:56.260 outside the United States

00:44:57.680 have

00:44:58.080 and outside

00:44:58.920 some of the

00:44:59.600 post-communist societies

00:45:00.700 in Central and Eastern Europe

00:45:01.860 where traditional religion

00:45:03.280 still remains

00:45:04.260 quite strong

00:45:05.100 so they see this

00:45:07.440 not just as something

00:45:08.600 foisted on Christians

00:45:09.840 they see this

00:45:11.340 as the

00:45:11.780 coming together

00:45:13.740 of various strands

00:45:14.980 whereby the morality

00:45:16.240 of Christianity

00:45:17.020 bursts out of the faith

00:45:18.540 eschews the faith

00:45:20.560 and does away with it

00:45:21.700 but keeps its moral essence

00:45:23.540 and that's a quite

00:45:25.520 different critique

00:45:26.340 to many

00:45:26.740 it also has a great

00:45:27.420 degree of truth to it

00:45:28.620 because an enormous

00:45:29.820 number of secular liberals

00:45:31.160 do recognize

00:45:32.160 a moral affiliation

00:45:33.940 with their interpretation

00:45:35.660 of the Christian tradition

00:45:36.960 which of course

00:45:38.440 is one interpretation

00:45:39.520 of the Christian tradition

00:45:40.760 Christians a couple

00:45:42.040 of hundred years ago

00:45:42.880 would not have

00:45:43.420 recognized

00:45:44.180 the moralistic

00:45:46.000 and humanistic

00:45:46.740 caricature of Christianity

00:45:47.880 which is today

00:45:49.380 presented as

00:45:52.780 Christian moral certainty

00:45:53.980 but that's because

00:45:55.440 Christianity itself

00:45:56.480 of course

00:45:56.940 has been drifting

00:45:57.600 leftwards

00:45:58.280 inside the West

00:45:59.840 over the last

00:46:01.040 100 to 150

00:46:02.260 to 200 years

00:46:03.460 so each institution

00:46:05.180 within the West

00:46:06.620 primarily as a result

00:46:08.180 of fascism's defeat

00:46:09.240 in the Second World War

00:46:10.420 and its moral defeat

00:46:11.820 after the war

00:46:12.780 when it became

00:46:13.840 morally a pariah

00:46:14.780 which is more important

00:46:15.680 than its physical defeat

00:46:16.920 has led to

00:46:18.240 a leftwards drift

00:46:19.300 in all institutions

00:46:21.020 every Christian church

00:46:22.740 has drifted

00:46:23.340 leftwards internally

00:46:24.260 with its own dynamic

00:46:25.760 between progressives

00:46:27.200 and conservatives

00:46:27.920 independent of anything

00:46:29.940 else going on

00:46:30.800 in the wider society

00:46:31.880 it's happened

00:46:32.800 in Anglicanism

00:46:33.660 Episcopalianism

00:46:34.880 in the United States

00:46:35.760 it's happened

00:46:36.640 in Roman Catholicism

00:46:37.800 the Roman Catholicism

00:46:39.320 of the Catholic Church

00:46:40.060 today

00:46:40.480 is a million miles

00:46:42.180 away from what

00:46:42.760 it would have been

00:46:43.220 in 1870

00:46:44.080 or even in the 1920s

00:46:46.140 yet externally

00:46:47.240 the Catholic Church

00:46:48.100 looks like

00:46:48.680 a very conservative

00:46:49.640 hierarchical

00:46:52.080 priestly

00:46:53.300 and hierarchical

00:46:54.240 institution

00:46:54.840 that all liberals

00:46:55.580 curse

00:46:56.200 and wear their fists

00:46:57.440 against

00:46:57.940 with an ultra-conservative

00:46:59.520 pontiff

00:47:00.040 at the present time

00:47:00.960 and that sort of thing

00:47:02.260 former head

00:47:02.740 of the Internal Inquisition

00:47:03.920 within the church

00:47:05.340 and that sort of thing

00:47:06.040 but

00:47:06.260 that type of Catholicism

00:47:10.440 is actually ripe

00:47:11.480 for liberal capture

00:47:12.740 and the way things

00:47:14.040 are going

00:47:14.400 in the Catholic Church

00:47:15.140 the Catholic Church

00:47:15.740 are 50 years from now

00:47:17.200 will be indistinguishable

00:47:18.780 ideologically

00:47:19.400 and theologically

00:47:20.220 would be odd

00:47:21.500 to be accepted

00:47:22.080 from many Protestant

00:47:23.340 denominations

00:47:24.240 who've made the leap

00:47:25.500 into liberalism

00:47:26.420 if not the leap

00:47:27.480 into secularism

00:47:28.540 earlier on

00:47:29.700 in their particular

00:47:30.500 historical trajectories

00:47:32.560 so Greece is unique

00:47:34.780 in its criticism

00:47:35.740 of Christianity

00:47:36.340 it's a very rational critique

00:47:38.060 what they're doing

00:47:39.080 is they're not

00:47:39.480 criticizing the

00:47:40.460 substance of the religion

00:47:41.700 because they believe

00:47:42.500 religion's a good thing

00:47:43.540 therefore whether you believe

00:47:45.040 Christ was God or not

00:47:46.220 or whether you believe

00:47:47.240 in the Christian

00:47:48.400 literally in this

00:47:49.180 Mel Gibson's film

00:47:50.560 The Passion of the Christ

00:47:51.480 or not

00:47:51.860 isn't their concern

00:47:53.020 they're not concerned

00:47:54.260 with awe

00:47:54.900 and with transcendentalism

00:47:56.600 and with the falling down

00:47:58.500 of those who have faith

00:47:59.520 before that

00:48:00.060 which they believe

00:48:00.700 is above them

00:48:01.380 they're in favour

00:48:02.300 of those things

00:48:03.120 they're in favour

00:48:04.100 of the sacred

00:48:04.880 which means

00:48:05.860 their critique

00:48:06.620 of Christianity

00:48:07.300 is secular

00:48:08.880 in some ways

00:48:09.740 rather than religious

00:48:10.540 they choose

00:48:11.900 not to be Christian

00:48:13.080 they choose

00:48:14.120 to reject things

00:48:14.880 about Christianity

00:48:15.700 but it's basically

00:48:17.020 because they disbelieve

00:48:19.280 in its morality

00:48:20.040 the kernel

00:48:21.720 of the religion

00:48:22.440 if you like

00:48:23.060 although most Christians

00:48:24.660 don't accept that

00:48:25.340 they accept that

00:48:25.880 they believe

00:48:26.760 that the beliefs

00:48:27.320 are the kernel

00:48:28.000 but philosophically

00:48:29.700 the morality of a faith

00:48:31.200 is what holds it up

00:48:32.660 it's its heartbeat

00:48:33.420 and it's that

00:48:34.540 which they reject

00:48:35.520 rather than

00:48:36.900 the structures

00:48:38.240 and beatific

00:48:39.440 semblances

00:48:40.180 of the faith itself

00:48:41.380 so they're in favour

00:48:42.520 of God worship

00:48:43.240 they're in favour

00:48:43.840 of the inequality

00:48:44.480 it provides

00:48:45.360 they're in favour

00:48:46.400 of that which is

00:48:47.160 above man

00:48:47.880 and which makes

00:48:49.000 man appear

00:48:49.740 lesser and yet

00:48:51.580 more than he might be

00:48:52.700 they're deeply

00:48:53.980 right-wing in many ways

00:48:55.020 despite the new

00:48:55.920 right coinage

00:48:57.060 but they are opposed

00:48:58.840 to things

00:49:00.500 which they regard

00:49:01.360 as detrimental

00:49:02.100 to Europe's

00:49:02.960 continued existence

00:49:03.800 and future

00:49:04.560 and their criticism

00:49:05.860 of the liberalism

00:49:06.860 inside Christianity

00:49:07.900 and its secular

00:49:10.100 breakout

00:49:10.580 is quite unique

00:49:12.480 actually

00:49:12.940 and forces

00:49:14.280 the traditional

00:49:14.960 right to think

00:49:15.960 to think clearly

00:49:17.300 about what it's about

00:49:18.420 because can a

00:49:19.900 conservative Christianity

00:49:21.100 compete

00:49:21.800 with its liberal

00:49:23.160 variant

00:49:23.740 or will it be

00:49:25.280 devoured alive

00:49:26.060 by it in the

00:49:26.880 coming generations

00:49:27.700 and Christianity

00:49:29.060 is eaten out

00:49:29.980 and then the

00:49:31.000 traditional right

00:49:31.740 has almost got

00:49:32.220 nothing to survive

00:49:33.380 on at all

00:49:34.060 because its support

00:49:35.340 system is gone

00:49:36.240 I completely agree

00:49:37.900 I just add

00:49:38.680 that speaking

00:49:39.280 from the inside

00:49:40.340 of America

00:49:41.000 I always

00:49:43.420 I'm a little bit

00:49:44.040 skeptical

00:49:44.420 when I hear

00:49:44.940 Europeans

00:49:45.380 talking about

00:49:46.020 Americans

00:49:46.580 being the big

00:49:47.940 exception

00:49:48.460 that they are

00:49:49.300 devoutly religious

00:49:50.340 and there

00:49:51.600 certainly are

00:49:52.420 people who are

00:49:53.080 devoutly religious

00:49:53.720 and there are

00:49:54.240 certainly some

00:49:54.960 currents of

00:49:57.520 snake charming

00:49:58.680 and emotionalism

00:49:59.980 religion

00:50:00.400 that are still

00:50:01.240 around in the US

00:50:02.660 but I've always

00:50:04.360 sensed that

00:50:05.860 so much of

00:50:06.320 contemporary

00:50:06.920 American Christianity

00:50:07.920 is essentially

00:50:09.260 worship of

00:50:10.100 America

00:50:10.580 it's an

00:50:11.960 Americanism

00:50:12.600 when you look

00:50:13.500 at some of

00:50:13.960 these big

00:50:15.000 events

00:50:15.620 when tons

00:50:16.520 of Christians

00:50:17.060 will get

00:50:17.420 together

00:50:17.740 they'll actually

00:50:18.180 even gather

00:50:18.580 in stadiums

00:50:19.980 they'll usually

00:50:20.940 have politicians

00:50:21.780 on stage

00:50:22.860 whether it's

00:50:23.620 someone like

00:50:24.660 Glenn Beck

00:50:25.440 where they're

00:50:26.180 basically

00:50:26.600 worshipping

00:50:27.300 Martin Luther

00:50:27.840 King

00:50:28.280 and their

00:50:29.100 vision of

00:50:29.860 Abraham Lincoln

00:50:30.680 or whether

00:50:31.740 they had

00:50:32.840 Rick Perry

00:50:33.780 the governor

00:50:34.320 of Texas

00:50:34.860 and a

00:50:36.080 presidential

00:50:36.460 candidate

00:50:37.040 speaking to

00:50:38.540 them from

00:50:38.820 the podium

00:50:39.280 that American

00:50:40.980 Christianity

00:50:41.460 really is

00:50:42.140 Americanism

00:50:43.020 and in many

00:50:43.700 ways it's not

00:50:45.140 particularly devotional

00:50:46.500 and it's not

00:50:47.620 even biblical

00:50:48.420 and in many

00:50:49.600 ways the fact

00:50:51.080 that America

00:50:51.660 still has this

00:50:52.540 global power

00:50:53.460 is what's

00:50:54.720 undergirding it

00:50:55.640 and that it

00:50:57.040 actually might

00:50:57.560 suffer a major

00:50:58.260 crisis were

00:50:59.620 America to

00:51:00.600 become a kind

00:51:01.920 of second world

00:51:02.580 nation economically

00:51:03.460 and it's

00:51:03.940 military empire

00:51:05.300 to collapse

00:51:05.860 so in that

00:51:07.640 sense I think

00:51:08.600 the new

00:51:09.820 right critique

00:51:10.540 of Christianity

00:51:11.680 is extremely

00:51:13.000 relevant

00:51:13.540 and important

00:51:15.240 let's

00:51:17.820 as we bring

00:51:19.140 this discussion

00:51:19.820 to a close

00:51:20.480 I'd certainly

00:51:21.000 like to talk

00:51:21.700 for another

00:51:22.220 couple hours

00:51:23.060 on this

00:51:23.540 but as I

00:51:25.100 was reading

00:51:25.460 through

00:51:26.180 new right

00:51:27.720 documents this

00:51:28.680 week just

00:51:29.100 getting ready

00:51:29.600 for this talk

00:51:30.380 I was struck

00:51:31.620 by an idea

00:51:32.580 of the

00:51:33.260 turning point

00:51:34.260 or the

00:51:35.060 sufficient

00:51:35.540 site in

00:51:37.000 Germany

00:51:37.500 in German

00:51:38.240 and that is

00:51:39.520 this idea

00:51:40.200 that modernity

00:51:42.320 itself is

00:51:43.860 getting old

00:51:44.940 and so many

00:51:46.080 of its

00:51:46.420 presuppositions

00:51:47.540 like the left

00:51:48.320 versus the right

00:51:49.100 progress versus

00:51:50.240 tradition so

00:51:51.500 on and so

00:51:51.840 forth that

00:51:52.520 these are

00:51:53.100 becoming

00:51:53.700 outmoded

00:51:54.980 and stale

00:51:55.840 and that

00:51:56.440 we're currently

00:51:57.380 in a kind

00:51:57.920 of interregnum

00:51:59.040 and that

00:52:00.940 there will

00:52:01.780 be a

00:52:02.600 something

00:52:03.080 after modernity

00:52:04.420 that the

00:52:05.000 new right

00:52:05.340 is kind

00:52:05.580 of postmodern

00:52:06.320 in that sense

00:52:08.160 so I think

00:52:09.820 that's a

00:52:10.200 quite a powerful

00:52:11.080 idea maybe

00:52:11.640 Jonathan you

00:52:12.120 could talk

00:52:12.960 a little bit

00:52:13.420 about their

00:52:14.020 concept of

00:52:15.180 the Tzvishan

00:52:16.020 site in which

00:52:17.040 we live

00:52:17.480 yes it's

00:52:19.780 a sort of

00:52:20.340 again attempting

00:52:21.580 to steal

00:52:22.040 things from

00:52:22.820 the left

00:52:23.960 because one

00:52:24.980 of the

00:52:25.200 traditions that

00:52:25.820 they've always

00:52:26.340 played up

00:52:27.280 modestly but

00:52:30.100 to a degree

00:52:30.960 is those

00:52:33.200 right wingers

00:52:33.900 who flirted

00:52:34.380 with modernism

00:52:35.000 in the early

00:52:35.380 part of the

00:52:35.820 20th century

00:52:36.580 now most

00:52:37.960 conservatives

00:52:38.460 don't like

00:52:39.000 modernism at

00:52:39.620 all and see

00:52:40.360 it as a

00:52:40.660 movement

00:52:40.920 associated

00:52:41.580 largely

00:52:42.080 culturally

00:52:42.580 with the

00:52:43.540 soft power

00:52:44.060 of the left

00:52:44.640 if with

00:52:45.520 anything at

00:52:46.020 all outside

00:52:47.020 of itself

00:52:47.740 but of

00:52:48.660 course a

00:52:49.140 large number

00:52:49.720 of people

00:52:50.100 like Ezra

00:52:50.580 Pound and

00:52:51.120 so on

00:52:51.500 were modernists

00:52:52.920 of a certain

00:52:54.120 type and

00:52:55.580 the idea that

00:52:56.500 these energies

00:52:57.000 can be turned

00:52:57.840 back upon the

00:52:58.700 left and

00:52:59.140 used to

00:52:59.820 destroy many

00:53:01.120 of their

00:53:01.400 preconceptions

00:53:02.060 and ideas

00:53:02.840 is something

00:53:03.740 that's quite

00:53:04.420 useful

00:53:05.460 this tends

00:53:07.300 to not

00:53:08.480 to a

00:53:08.960 categorical

00:53:09.580 rejection of

00:53:10.260 the modern

00:53:10.700 or the

00:53:11.540 modern world

00:53:12.360 and now

00:53:13.280 that the

00:53:13.840 modernism of

00:53:14.800 high modernism

00:53:15.540 is admitted

00:53:16.380 to be over

00:53:17.000 even by

00:53:17.620 its high

00:53:18.000 priests

00:53:18.540 we live

00:53:19.460 in a

00:53:19.700 post-modern

00:53:20.240 society

00:53:20.820 people date

00:53:21.720 post-modernism

00:53:22.460 from 1960

00:53:23.380 in the

00:53:24.220 cultural sphere

00:53:25.060 and from a

00:53:26.220 later perspective

00:53:27.180 in other

00:53:27.700 areas

00:53:28.240 but we're

00:53:29.120 now living

00:53:29.500 in a

00:53:29.800 hyper-real

00:53:30.460 or post-modern

00:53:31.300 world

00:53:31.820 where the

00:53:32.700 new rights

00:53:33.140 ideas of

00:53:34.100 fragmentary

00:53:35.120 progress

00:53:35.780 and a bit

00:53:36.920 of the new

00:53:37.360 and a bit

00:53:37.680 of the old

00:53:38.400 and the

00:53:39.080 combination

00:53:39.360 of things

00:53:40.000 that are

00:53:40.280 dialectically

00:53:40.860 intertwined

00:53:41.480 but may

00:53:41.860 not go

00:53:43.660 together

00:53:44.020 logically

00:53:44.440 it's quite

00:53:45.600 relevant

00:53:46.060 this sort

00:53:47.760 of way

00:53:48.040 of looking

00:53:48.380 at things

00:53:48.780 is quite

00:53:49.240 salient

00:53:49.900 so they

00:53:50.620 can very

00:53:50.980 legitimately

00:53:51.380 claim to

00:53:52.020 be a

00:53:52.340 post-modern

00:53:53.020 and therefore

00:53:54.100 a modern

00:53:54.860 trajectory

00:53:55.980 even though

00:53:57.940 they're

00:53:58.260 criticised by

00:53:59.060 all their

00:53:59.360 enemies

00:53:59.680 for smuggling

00:54:01.040 back all

00:54:01.720 sorts of

00:54:02.080 traditional

00:54:02.560 and in

00:54:03.220 their view

00:54:03.680 discredited

00:54:04.320 notions

00:54:04.940 under the

00:54:06.100 guise of

00:54:06.600 new thinking

00:54:07.300 that's the

00:54:08.220 left-wing

00:54:08.560 critique of

00:54:09.180 grass

00:54:09.620 that what

00:54:10.380 they are

00:54:10.700 up to

00:54:11.260 is smuggling

00:54:12.280 back all

00:54:12.880 sorts of

00:54:13.600 shop soil

00:54:14.380 goods as

00:54:14.940 they would

00:54:15.260 see them

00:54:15.680 from the

00:54:16.000 past

00:54:16.520 and repackaging

00:54:17.840 them and

00:54:18.720 representing

00:54:19.300 them in

00:54:19.760 the present

00:54:20.220 to appear

00:54:21.340 shiny

00:54:22.180 new

00:54:22.800 modern

00:54:23.640 and even

00:54:24.080 slightly

00:54:24.420 shocking

00:54:25.040 and transgressive

00:54:26.560 in relation

00:54:27.440 to previous

00:54:28.140 types of

00:54:29.200 radically

00:54:31.380 conservative

00:54:32.000 opinion

00:54:32.620 and there

00:54:34.580 is an

00:54:34.860 element of

00:54:35.320 truth to

00:54:35.740 that

00:54:35.920 that's

00:54:36.240 what all

00:54:36.840 tendencies

00:54:37.220 do

00:54:37.640 that's

00:54:38.300 what the

00:54:38.540 new left

00:54:38.940 did

00:54:39.140 it dusted

00:54:39.580 off all

00:54:40.000 sorts of

00:54:40.380 shady

00:54:40.900 excurricular

00:54:42.560 parts of

00:54:43.100 the left

00:54:43.420 and brought

00:54:43.820 them back

00:54:44.460 to confront

00:54:45.480 the juggernaut

00:54:46.220 of the

00:54:46.940 post-salmist

00:54:47.600 present

00:54:48.020 and to

00:54:49.000 make sure

00:54:49.360 the left

00:54:49.700 remained

00:54:50.040 relevant in

00:54:50.660 relation to

00:54:51.320 western

00:54:51.580 societies

00:54:52.260 and wasn't

00:54:53.020 dismissed as

00:54:53.700 just the

00:54:54.040 helpmaidens of

00:54:54.980 the soviet

00:54:55.400 union

00:54:55.840 a system

00:54:56.740 which they

00:54:57.180 may be

00:54:57.620 sensed

00:54:58.320 had the

00:54:59.020 taste of

00:54:59.460 death in

00:54:59.780 its mouth

00:55:00.340 decades before

00:55:01.220 it actually

00:55:01.680 collapsed

00:55:02.320 so what

00:55:03.380 grass are

00:55:03.760 doing

00:55:04.200 is they're

00:55:05.100 signalling

00:55:05.740 a set of

00:55:06.740 interconnected

00:55:07.180 ideas

00:55:07.980 which could

00:55:09.040 be grasped

00:55:10.020 by a

00:55:10.680 post-collapse

00:55:11.740 sort of

00:55:12.640 right-wing

00:55:13.260 that has

00:55:13.900 to think

00:55:14.300 out all

00:55:14.700 its

00:55:14.880 presuppositions

00:55:16.460 again

00:55:16.920 and what

00:55:18.140 appears to

00:55:18.740 be a lonely

00:55:19.360 and even

00:55:19.920 slightly trivial

00:55:20.760 elitism

00:55:21.240 in relation

00:55:22.260 to these

00:55:22.700 masses of

00:55:23.440 conservative

00:55:23.940 Christians

00:55:24.420 with their

00:55:25.280 America-first

00:55:27.120 attitudes

00:55:27.760 all of whom

00:55:28.600 are very

00:55:29.000 right-wing

00:55:29.640 in leftist

00:55:30.220 terms

00:55:30.820 now

00:55:32.580 maybe

00:55:33.680 if the

00:55:33.980 United States

00:55:34.460 quickly collapsed

00:55:35.380 if it went

00:55:35.900 from a

00:55:36.220 superpower

00:55:36.540 to a

00:55:37.420 banana

00:55:37.680 republic

00:55:38.140 in 20

00:55:38.620 years

00:55:39.160 and

00:55:40.120 Americans

00:55:41.200 faith in

00:55:41.880 themselves

00:55:42.420 and in

00:55:43.320 their own

00:55:43.680 providential

00:55:44.320 status

00:55:44.860 as the

00:55:45.220 nation

00:55:45.480 on the

00:55:45.760 hill

00:55:46.060 received a

00:55:48.200 jolt that

00:55:48.660 was bigger

00:55:49.060 than that

00:55:49.500 which Germans

00:55:50.100 received

00:55:50.760 with the

00:55:51.520 massive

00:55:51.740 inflation

00:55:52.360 and the

00:55:53.380 societal

00:55:53.800 collapse

00:55:54.260 of Weimar

00:55:54.760 in the

00:55:55.500 1920s

00:55:56.540 if that

00:55:57.260 happened

00:55:57.700 a lot

00:55:58.340 of thinking

00:55:58.780 people

00:55:59.240 would look

00:55:59.920 for new

00:56:00.240 ideas

00:56:00.740 you see

00:56:01.100 they would

00:56:01.700 look to

00:56:02.040 think out

00:56:02.600 the crisis

00:56:03.140 they would

00:56:03.660 look to be

00:56:04.420 ahead of the

00:56:04.920 curve

00:56:05.360 things which

00:56:06.260 appear

00:56:06.600 impossible

00:56:07.140 now

00:56:07.620 would appear

00:56:10.360 salient

00:56:11.100 then

00:56:11.600 and that's

00:56:12.480 what they're

00:56:12.780 looking to

00:56:13.160 do

00:56:13.500 they're looking

00:56:14.360 to influence

00:56:15.020 the elite

00:56:15.560 minds

00:56:16.100 when a

00:56:16.920 change

00:56:17.280 comes

00:56:17.860 who then

00:56:18.680 influence

00:56:19.300 all the

00:56:19.680 second and

00:56:20.180 third and

00:56:20.660 fourth tier

00:56:21.220 people

00:56:21.600 to go

00:56:22.240 with them

00:56:22.740 because

00:56:24.460 America

00:56:26.320 is really

00:56:27.000 a secular

00:56:27.520 society

00:56:28.180 with a

00:56:28.620 religious

00:56:28.960 edge

00:56:29.440 which

00:56:29.680 Europe

00:56:29.980 has

00:56:30.200 lost

00:56:30.660 it

00:56:31.720 could

00:56:31.900 well

00:56:32.220 lose

00:56:32.560 that

00:56:32.760 religious

00:56:33.080 edge

00:56:33.600 if

00:56:34.200 America

00:56:34.660 faces

00:56:35.220 a

00:56:35.840 crisis

00:56:37.300 on

00:56:37.620 multiple

00:56:38.020 levels

00:56:38.700 and

00:56:39.360 America

00:56:39.680 has never

00:56:40.060 been

00:56:40.300 economically

00:56:40.820 weaker

00:56:41.220 than it

00:56:41.560 is now

00:56:42.180 communist

00:56:43.800 China

00:56:44.240 is holding

00:56:44.660 it up

00:56:45.220 and that's

00:56:49.100 the sort

00:56:49.580 of scenario

00:56:50.340 of apocalypse

00:56:51.480 it's odd

00:56:52.340 actually

00:56:52.700 because the

00:56:53.300 new right

00:56:53.680 scenario

00:56:54.060 is very

00:56:54.600 rational

00:56:55.120 and is

00:56:55.860 delivered in

00:56:56.420 this sort

00:56:56.800 of

00:56:57.000 prosodic

00:56:57.960 French

00:56:58.660 rationalist

00:56:59.540 way

00:57:00.180 and yet

00:57:01.340 deep down

00:57:02.300 it's a

00:57:03.600 yearning

00:57:04.020 for mental

00:57:04.900 change

00:57:05.460 after

00:57:05.880 apocalypse

00:57:07.460 Jonathan

00:57:08.340 thank you

00:57:09.520 for being

00:57:10.380 on the

00:57:10.680 program

00:57:11.040 once again

00:57:11.760 I think

00:57:12.540 it's fitting

00:57:12.920 that we

00:57:13.260 end on

00:57:14.060 that note

00:57:15.020 and I'd

00:57:15.720 love for

00:57:16.040 you to

00:57:16.620 return

00:57:17.380 and there

00:57:18.640 are a

00:57:18.900 whole

00:57:19.280 host of

00:57:20.120 topics

00:57:20.540 that I'd

00:57:21.480 like to

00:57:21.740 talk with

00:57:22.100 you about

00:57:22.500 thanks very

00:57:24.120 much

00:57:24.520 a

00:57:26.760 that I

00:57:26.780 love it

00:57:30.960 I'd pin

00:57:31.480 that

00:57:33.260 I'd li

00:57:37.700 just

00:57:38.640 see you

00:57:40.340 bye

00:57:40.920 I'm

00:57:41.660 I'd li

00:57:43.000 like to

00:57:43.100 me

00:57:43.620 I'd Unbelievable

00:57:47.620 trước

00:57:48.200 on the

00:57:49.400 now

00:57:50.580 and we

00:57:51.260 laugh

00:57:52.540 Transcription by CastingWords

RadixJournal - January 13, 2018

Bowden! - 3 - The European New Right

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