RadixJournal - Bowden! - 4 - Creative Destruction

00:00:00.000 Welcome to Vanguard, a podcast of radical traditionalism.

00:00:24.640 Here's your host, Richard Spencer.

00:00:27.380 Hello, everyone. Today, it's a great pleasure to welcome back to the podcast, Jonathan Bowden.

00:00:34.480 If you'd like an introduction to Jonathan's work, perhaps the best place to start is with our three previous broadcasts,

00:00:44.660 which were on the left, Friedrich Nietzsche, and most recently, Alain de Benoît and the European New Right.

00:00:52.680 Today, we are going to talk about a philosophical movement of equal importance, and that is libertarianism.

00:01:01.940 So, Jonathan, thanks for being back in the podcast.

00:01:05.320 Pleased to be here.

00:01:06.340 Well, Jonathan, libertarianism is in the news these days, mostly through the campaign of Ron Paul, who's a Republican congressman.

00:01:20.800 But he is a libertarian, he would identify as such, and he has called his victories, or his strong showings, rather, in Iowa and New Hampshire, in these recent primaries, as victories for liberty.

00:01:35.220 Also, libertarianism certainly has many detractors, many of whom probably view it as some kind of apologetics for financial capitalism or a false consciousness in the Marxian sense of the word.

00:01:52.760 It is a real ideology, and it's one that certainly inspires millions of people, and it's wrong to question the sincerity of the belief of people like the Tea Party,

00:02:02.260 who at least claim to really want liberty and to believe in it as a first principle of a country.

00:02:09.980 So, it's obviously something we need to take seriously, and with that in mind, you're very good at getting down to the essence of something.

00:02:18.580 So, as we begin the discussion, I'd like to ask, what is the essence of libertarianism?

00:02:24.560 Where is it coming from?

00:02:26.260 Is it a modern ideology?

00:02:28.340 Is it much older than that?

00:02:31.460 And we can also talk a little bit after that of whether this is on the right or the left or neither, or so on and so forth.

00:02:38.280 But let's start with that basic core.

00:02:40.420 What is libertarianism at its heart?

00:02:42.580 Yes, I think it's an unfashionable form of liberalism, which has become fashionable again in certain right-of-centre circles.

00:02:53.760 Up until Keynesian economics in the 1930s, which didn't really triumph until the economics of the Second World War,

00:03:01.580 because the economics of states when they're at war are always very distinctive and different to states when they're at peace.

00:03:07.680 An enormous amount of expenditure on the recent Iraq War, for example, which wouldn't have occurred,

00:03:12.940 and wouldn't have occurred in the quote-unquote status way that it did, had that war not eventuated.

00:03:17.860 So the classical laissez-faire economics, which was the staple of most centre-right and centrist parties and right elements in the centre-left parties as well,

00:03:33.200 up until the Great Crash in 1929, would be broadly speaking libertarian,

00:03:38.480 and they'd have ramifying social and cultural and educational and other areas

00:03:44.580 that could be described as old liberal or old right liberal or laissez-faire or laissez-aller or laissez-passé liberal.

00:03:54.920 These were discredited by the Great Crash in 1929, which opened up a whole new space for socialist, semi-socialist,

00:04:03.760 social democratic, socialistic, even in a dissident way, social credit,

00:04:08.800 and other right-wing, left-wing forms of social intervention in the marketplace,

00:04:14.100 whereby the state would come in, would be a power broker between the participants in the market,

00:04:20.060 would stabilise prices, would intervene on a day-to-day basis,

00:04:25.040 would even nationalise parts of the economy, take them under state ownership and so on,

00:04:29.140 which countries like Britain and France saw a great deal of in the post-Second World War 20th century,

00:04:35.900 when libertarian ideas were very much in inabeyance and retreated to the margins.

00:04:41.580 When Friedrich von Hayek, who's one of the senior libertarian thinkers of the 20th century,

00:04:47.600 wrote On the Road to Serfdom in the late 1940s,

00:04:51.420 he was reacting against the reaction against libertarianism.

00:04:55.960 He was reacting against the socialist economics of the then Labour government,

00:04:59.800 that had a massive landslide in Britain in 1945, and that ejected Churchill,

00:05:05.460 and that socialised the British economy, and set up a socialised system of medicine,

00:05:10.380 known as the National Health Service, which America has crept towards over 60 to 70 years,

00:05:15.900 but even to this date is not quite fully embraced.

00:05:18.420 But that was set up in Britain in the 1940s,

00:05:22.280 in the teeth of the opposition of the medical establishment,

00:05:25.240 and capitalist businesses that provided medical services at that time.

00:05:29.700 So libertarianism in some ways is quite old,

00:05:32.560 and goes back to the classical liberalism of Ricardo and Mill and Adam Smith,

00:05:39.180 and the people who set up economics as a science,

00:05:42.060 and set up economics as a social science to study the economy,

00:05:45.740 in the 1780s and thereafter.

00:05:50.160 And it's always been an economic doctrine.

00:05:52.860 It's Marxism's inverse.

00:05:54.400 It's inverted Marxism.

00:05:56.260 That's why when Marx wrote Capital, Volume 1,

00:05:59.480 he called it a critique of the mystical economy,

00:06:02.220 because the mystical economy that was then fashionable

00:06:04.820 was la tailleur economics,

00:06:07.380 of which his work is an entire inversion.

00:06:09.740 So in a way, he was criticizing the libertarianism of that era.

00:06:14.020 Well, picking up on that, Jonathan,

00:06:16.540 obviously things like left and right,

00:06:19.060 they can be arbitrary,

00:06:20.960 maybe even in some ways those kind of distinctions

00:06:24.600 just aren't useful anymore.

00:06:26.320 But I think there is a real left,

00:06:30.660 and there is a real right that we talked about,

00:06:32.440 of egalitarianism versus an acceptance of hierarchy and difference,

00:06:37.480 so on and so forth.

00:06:38.100 So do you think libertarianism is on the left,

00:06:43.260 and that even if it becomes an implacable foe of Marxian economics,

00:06:51.000 that they both have the same nature,

00:06:54.640 in the sense that they think materialistically,

00:06:58.060 and that they both have a kind of utopia

00:07:01.700 of rational distribution of all resources

00:07:05.760 and human happiness as maybe the ultimate goal in life?

00:07:12.180 Yes, I see what you mean.

00:07:15.200 Libertarianism, rather like the green ideology

00:07:17.400 and feminism up to a point,

00:07:19.820 and certain sexual ideologies

00:07:21.320 and certain other areas like anarchism,

00:07:24.700 does fall outside the left-right nexus,

00:07:26.960 and the left-right spectrum

00:07:28.800 isn't always the most useful in discussing it.

00:07:32.120 However, I'm a bit of a dissident here

00:07:33.820 because I do regard libertarianism as not left-wing.

00:07:37.640 I think it's a right-wing discourse

00:07:39.280 because it always tends to inequality.

00:07:42.420 It always tends to elitism

00:07:43.760 and divisions between human beings.

00:07:45.660 It always tends towards a class-based hierarchy,

00:07:49.300 whatever anyone says to the country.

00:07:51.460 It always tends to an unequal,

00:07:53.400 in other words,

00:07:53.960 a naturally occurring distribution of goods and services.

00:07:58.120 It always goes with the flow of inequity

00:08:00.960 even in its commitment to freedom of speech,

00:08:04.300 which is absolute.

00:08:05.780 One of the areas that demarcates it

00:08:07.720 from most other ideological systems

00:08:09.540 is the respect they do accord opponents,

00:08:12.620 even when they're sort of trashing them with extremity.

00:08:16.460 It's one of the few discourses

00:08:17.980 that does allow actual freedom of speech

00:08:20.000 for almost every discourse imaginable,

00:08:23.080 including discourses that people would regard as unimaginable

00:08:26.880 and should be suppressed by law.

00:08:29.120 Libertarianism is the only ideology

00:08:31.480 that really does believe in freedom of speech,

00:08:34.920 and that includes all politically incorrect freedoms of speech as well.

00:08:39.820 So I personally think libertarianism,

00:08:42.340 because it tends to inequality,

00:08:44.460 has to be regarded as on the right.

00:08:46.560 And this has a symmetry with the fact

00:08:48.540 that the only space on the spectrum for it now

00:08:50.860 is as the affordable right

00:08:53.420 of conservative and center-right parties

00:08:56.580 like the Republicans,

00:08:58.020 who are embarrassed about a hard right,

00:09:01.100 which is non-libertarian

00:09:02.600 and even quasi-authoritarian

00:09:05.500 and is nationalistic,

00:09:07.740 and therefore wants to find another right,

00:09:10.000 which in some ways is softer

00:09:11.200 and more reflexive

00:09:12.820 and goes with the values of the hour.

00:09:14.880 And libertarianism proved a bit of a godsend, really,

00:09:18.880 for that purpose.

00:09:20.860 When I was a student

00:09:21.980 on the right wing of the Conservative Party

00:09:23.740 30 years ago in Britain,

00:09:26.240 and its student wing at that

00:09:27.660 then called the Federation of Conservative Students

00:09:29.640 a very wild and woolly organization

00:09:31.820 in the 1980s by any stretch of the imagination,

00:09:35.000 the libertarians were the dominant faction.

00:09:36.960 They were known as the sound faction.

00:09:39.300 And the libs, as they were called,

00:09:41.500 were very much in charge

00:09:42.720 and very much had a sort of trenched

00:09:45.280 and vanguard ideology of their own.

00:09:48.100 They never really made the jump

00:09:50.220 from the hierarchy of the student wing

00:09:52.880 of the Tory party

00:09:53.720 to the hierarchy of the Tory party itself,

00:09:56.660 although numerous individuals

00:09:57.900 have been influenced by libertarianism

00:09:59.920 in whole or in part.

00:10:01.740 They took over the adult student wing

00:10:04.640 of the party,

00:10:05.320 but otherwise they made no further penetrations into it.

00:10:09.080 In America, it seems to be

00:10:10.160 a whole different ballgame,

00:10:12.000 where although it's taken them 50 years,

00:10:14.820 libertarianism has moved in

00:10:16.360 from the lunatic fringe, virtually,

00:10:19.080 to being accorded a degree of respect,

00:10:21.980 even though much of the mainstream media

00:10:23.760 regards Ron Paul's candidacy

00:10:25.560 as a species of lunacy.

00:10:27.760 But when he's getting what?

00:10:29.360 He's sort of averaging, what,

00:10:30.400 20% of the votes?

00:10:31.560 Yeah, in Republican primaries, yes.

00:10:34.260 In Republican primaries?

00:10:35.680 Yeah.

00:10:36.020 That is not the lunatic fringe by any means.

00:10:38.460 No.

00:10:39.020 Although many of his ideas,

00:10:40.680 abolishing the national debt,

00:10:42.060 abolishing the Federal Reserve,

00:10:44.180 sort of zero tolerance

00:10:45.340 for most permissive forms of taxation,

00:10:48.800 the legalization of nearly all recreational drugs,

00:10:53.140 to take a few examples

00:10:54.380 of some of his top-drawer

00:10:56.360 and more moderate policy agendas,

00:10:58.840 would be regarded by the centre

00:11:02.680 as the politics of lunacy.

00:11:05.340 Yes.

00:11:05.540 And yet,

00:11:06.680 the interesting thing about libertarianism

00:11:08.260 is because it's philosophically based,

00:11:11.200 the people who advocate it

00:11:12.760 don't come across as lunatic

00:11:14.060 and therefore, in a way,

00:11:16.340 are part and parcel of the argument.

00:11:18.900 Also, many of their ideas

00:11:20.120 are much closer to the mainstream

00:11:21.820 and the centre

00:11:23.120 than they appear at first light.

00:11:25.440 So, this advocacy of the liberty,

00:11:28.760 I mean, who in the centre ground

00:11:30.360 of American politics, at any rate,

00:11:32.200 is going to be against that,

00:11:34.200 who, the advocacy of a sort of

00:11:36.200 minimal constitutionalism,

00:11:39.460 that the constitution of the founding fathers

00:11:41.040 is all that you require

00:11:42.140 to run a modern society along the lines of,

00:11:45.100 that's something that many Americans,

00:11:46.820 who wouldn't regard themselves

00:11:47.700 as libertarians at all,

00:11:49.000 or even particularly interested in it,

00:11:50.960 would adhere to.

00:11:51.820 Their attitude on things like guns,

00:11:55.180 for example,

00:11:56.340 which is extraordinarily libertarian,

00:11:58.260 therefore, anyone can own one.

00:12:00.200 You can almost go in your own bazooka,

00:12:02.180 can't you?

00:12:02.460 Own your own tank.

00:12:03.800 You know, this is their attitude

00:12:04.820 towards things.

00:12:06.560 Would ramify with a large number

00:12:08.660 of quite conservative

00:12:10.440 and right-wing Americans

00:12:11.560 who would have a loathing

00:12:14.020 for their social ideas, anyway.

00:12:16.360 Let me put some pressure

00:12:18.540 on these points,

00:12:19.720 because there are a lot

00:12:21.300 of different avenues

00:12:22.180 have opened up

00:12:22.800 with what you've just said.

00:12:25.020 One thing that I find interesting

00:12:27.600 about Ron Paul

00:12:28.640 is that he is rejected

00:12:32.420 by the mainstream media,

00:12:34.140 not just the liberal media,

00:12:35.620 but all of them,

00:12:36.340 and he's pretty much rejected

00:12:38.960 by every other Republican candidate

00:12:41.160 as maybe good

00:12:43.060 on a handful of issues,

00:12:44.180 but dangerous

00:12:45.320 and maybe even

00:12:46.260 a little bit lunatic.

00:12:48.000 But what I think

00:12:49.460 is truly dangerous

00:12:50.800 about Ron Paul

00:12:51.840 for the establishment

00:12:53.240 and for the Republicans

00:12:54.500 is that, in many ways,

00:12:57.240 libertarianism is kind of

00:12:59.600 all the Republicans

00:13:01.280 really have

00:13:02.480 in terms of an ideology

00:13:05.260 that's philosophically based.

00:13:07.960 And it's hard for them

00:13:09.640 to exactly disagree

00:13:11.060 with Ron Paul.

00:13:12.440 You know, Mitt Romney

00:13:13.840 and so on and so forth,

00:13:14.840 they're all going to say things

00:13:16.180 like capitalism

00:13:17.400 is the best form

00:13:19.120 of the distribution of goods.

00:13:21.900 You know,

00:13:22.080 we should have a...

00:13:23.200 The government should be based

00:13:24.700 solely in the Constitution

00:13:26.200 and we should do nothing else,

00:13:28.080 so on and so forth.

00:13:28.740 And they might be lying

00:13:31.200 in a way.

00:13:31.980 They're not going to actually...

00:13:33.120 They don't actually want that.

00:13:34.940 But it's quite hard

00:13:36.140 for them to really disagree

00:13:37.320 with Ron Paul.

00:13:38.440 And Ron Paul is therefore dangerous

00:13:39.760 because he kind of brings

00:13:41.340 their words into action

00:13:43.300 and takes it to its...

00:13:45.800 It takes their words

00:13:46.480 to their ultimate

00:13:47.120 logical conclusion.

00:13:49.620 And I also want to throw in here

00:13:51.500 to further the conversation

00:13:54.680 this notion of what I said before

00:13:58.260 in the sense of libertarianism

00:13:59.900 is one of the only ideologies

00:14:02.160 that an American conservative

00:14:04.380 could articulate.

00:14:05.520 He can't articulate

00:14:07.720 one based on civilization

00:14:11.040 and race.

00:14:12.320 That is simply not done.

00:14:15.160 You might get, you know,

00:14:16.680 lose your job

00:14:17.540 if you say anything like that.

00:14:20.020 And so do you think libertarianism

00:14:21.820 in a way is a kind of mask

00:14:23.940 for a lot of these people?

00:14:25.140 It's a mask for the Tea Party.

00:14:26.540 The left is actually correct

00:14:28.080 when they say that, you know,

00:14:31.140 the Tea Party doesn't really want

00:14:33.060 what they say they want.

00:14:34.000 It's all about an implicit

00:14:35.580 white identity

00:14:36.420 or something like that

00:14:38.000 in the sense that

00:14:39.420 at the moment

00:14:40.560 the state is, you know,

00:14:42.680 pushing forward these things.

00:14:43.940 It's pushing forward regulations.

00:14:46.940 It's pushing forward

00:14:47.580 health care socialization.

00:14:49.800 It's taxing them.

00:14:50.960 It's taking their money

00:14:51.740 and giving it to immigrants

00:14:53.360 or blacks or so on and so forth

00:14:54.800 or giving it to the financial sector.

00:14:56.340 It's kind of worse.

00:14:58.160 And that in some ways

00:14:59.440 libertarianism is the way

00:15:00.760 it's a kind of defense mechanism.

00:15:02.580 It's a kind of leave-me-alone ideology

00:15:05.480 which is limited in its way.

00:15:08.920 But that is what libertarianism

00:15:12.420 is really about,

00:15:13.920 that it's a way of articulating

00:15:16.580 something that is truly conservative

00:15:19.440 and maybe even truly racially based.

00:15:21.840 Yes, there's a lot to unpick there.

00:15:26.780 I think the left are largely right

00:15:28.600 about the appeal libertarianism has

00:15:31.500 and they're less right

00:15:32.860 about libertarianism itself.

00:15:35.620 The small, hard core

00:15:37.300 or vanguard of people

00:15:38.860 who are libertarians

00:15:40.160 who regard their political

00:15:41.900 and social life

00:15:42.720 as quote-unquote

00:15:43.480 being a libertarian,

00:15:45.100 there are a tiny handful in Britain

00:15:46.600 but much more common

00:15:49.220 to find such individuals

00:15:50.240 which is in the States.

00:15:51.700 Now, they really do believe

00:15:53.040 the ideology heart and soul.

00:15:55.200 Yes.

00:15:56.620 Whereas something like

00:15:57.280 the Tea Party movement

00:15:58.200 was an emotional bubble.

00:16:00.120 If you looked at

00:16:00.860 those town hall meetings

00:16:02.300 that seem to have died out a bit now

00:16:04.200 from this side of the Atlantic anyway,

00:16:06.200 they probably still have them.

00:16:07.820 But they got an enormous amount

00:16:09.040 of media attention

00:16:10.560 during the middle of Obama's tenure,

00:16:14.580 first presidential term,

00:16:16.580 probably coming up

00:16:17.420 to the midterm elections

00:16:18.500 which they doubt

00:16:19.340 has influenced a great deal

00:16:20.740 in getting the Republican base vote out

00:16:23.320 to pat the Congress

00:16:24.860 against the incumbent

00:16:26.760 in the White House.

00:16:27.980 Now,

00:16:29.280 those meetings tended

00:16:30.520 to be very fissile

00:16:32.000 and to be very febrile

00:16:33.320 and to be very emotive.

00:16:36.100 Whereas libertarianism

00:16:37.320 is a rationalist ideology

00:16:39.020 to court

00:16:39.940 where everything

00:16:41.180 is sort of basically dry

00:16:43.020 and put out

00:16:44.380 to market tender.

00:16:46.400 And it's quite clear

00:16:47.720 that there was

00:16:48.380 an enormous revulsion

00:16:49.800 quite possibly

00:16:51.140 against the first

00:16:52.060 non-white president

00:16:53.000 who was seen

00:16:55.140 as the apple-gee

00:16:56.040 of all of these

00:16:57.000 centre-left

00:16:58.220 and socialistic policies.

00:17:01.040 And the two fused together.

00:17:02.780 You used to have

00:17:03.180 these posters,

00:17:04.020 didn't you?

00:17:04.300 These mock posters

00:17:05.200 of Obama

00:17:06.040 superimposed

00:17:07.200 upon Lenin's visage

00:17:08.540 with the sort of

00:17:11.080 Leningrad features

00:17:11.920 in the background

00:17:12.720 and a red sky

00:17:13.980 and a red flag

00:17:15.380 instead of a Democratic

00:17:16.480 that says it would be

00:17:17.180 a blue flag,

00:17:17.960 wouldn't it?

00:17:19.500 So,

00:17:20.760 you had in the

00:17:22.120 Tea Party movement

00:17:23.560 an extreme emotional reaction

00:17:25.260 to the Obama presidency

00:17:27.420 and the disempowerment

00:17:29.500 that many grassroots

00:17:30.700 Americans felt

00:17:31.740 as a result of that.

00:17:34.060 And libertarianism

00:17:35.060 in those circumstances

00:17:36.100 can be seen

00:17:36.960 as a shield

00:17:37.680 to say

00:17:38.900 acceptably

00:17:40.180 unacceptable

00:17:41.320 and populist things.

00:17:43.160 So I think the left

00:17:44.100 is quite right there.

00:17:45.120 I think what they make

00:17:45.820 the mistake

00:17:46.340 is that they think

00:17:47.200 it's so cynical

00:17:47.980 that everybody

00:17:49.180 thinks one way

00:17:50.360 and speaks another

00:17:51.280 whereas life's

00:17:52.480 never quite like that.

00:17:54.280 Quite a lot of the people

00:17:54.900 who articulate

00:17:55.480 this libertarianism

00:17:56.460 or various brands of it

00:17:57.700 in the mainstream

00:17:58.460 do genuinely believe in it.

00:18:01.180 But there's almost

00:18:02.020 a subtext

00:18:02.720 to what they're doing

00:18:03.640 and they almost

00:18:04.480 don't allow themselves

00:18:05.720 to reach the conclusions

00:18:07.780 that have prompted

00:18:08.520 their own actions.

00:18:09.880 I think that's very current.

00:18:12.080 So I do think

00:18:12.720 that the libertarianism

00:18:13.900 is a species

00:18:14.700 of the right

00:18:15.340 in this era.

00:18:16.600 In another era

00:18:17.500 it might not be

00:18:18.440 to the same degree

00:18:19.320 but in this era

00:18:20.620 very much so.

00:18:22.160 And I also think

00:18:23.000 it does tend

00:18:23.720 to right-wing outcomes

00:18:25.040 and I also think

00:18:26.440 it is a code

00:18:27.160 that is used

00:18:28.260 deliberately

00:18:29.080 to support

00:18:30.260 anti-socialism

00:18:31.420 to support

00:18:32.280 anti-Marxism

00:18:33.220 to support

00:18:34.320 left-wing

00:18:35.440 interpretations

00:18:36.060 of feminism

00:18:37.900 or ecology

00:18:38.680 by denying them

00:18:40.580 any space

00:18:41.040 whatsoever.

00:18:42.160 So it's an

00:18:42.680 anti-leftist movement

00:18:44.120 which means

00:18:44.640 it's on the right

00:18:45.320 by virtue of that.

00:18:46.860 And it's a

00:18:47.500 subliminal movement

00:18:48.560 whereby all sorts

00:18:49.680 of anti-Obama

00:18:50.620 tendencies

00:18:51.200 tendencies of

00:18:53.020 white and Caucasian

00:18:55.080 distress in the

00:18:55.800 United States

00:18:56.640 are factored up

00:18:57.980 and factored in

00:18:59.000 in a manner

00:18:59.900 which can be put

00:19:00.700 forward in an

00:19:01.460 acceptable nomenclature

00:19:02.920 and used

00:19:04.280 in a populist

00:19:06.300 way

00:19:06.840 that doesn't

00:19:07.780 necessarily sound

00:19:08.740 like populism

00:19:09.700 as it would be

00:19:10.760 understood

00:19:11.660 or thought of

00:19:13.200 in a more

00:19:13.620 rudimentary way

00:19:14.480 perhaps.

00:19:15.660 So yes,

00:19:17.320 it is a shield

00:19:18.120 and all sorts

00:19:19.080 of people have

00:19:19.560 gathered around

00:19:20.240 it or underneath

00:19:20.820 it.

00:19:21.200 because it's

00:19:21.720 useful

00:19:22.300 because it

00:19:23.860 attacks the

00:19:24.500 enemies they

00:19:25.000 want to attack

00:19:26.040 and it does

00:19:27.020 so in a way

00:19:27.780 which has

00:19:28.860 less hostages

00:19:29.620 to fortune

00:19:30.200 at this time.

00:19:31.960 It's also

00:19:32.780 worth pointing

00:19:33.940 out the other

00:19:34.780 side of

00:19:35.400 libertarianism

00:19:36.160 and that is

00:19:37.320 not the

00:19:38.420 libertarianism

00:19:39.120 that has a

00:19:39.940 populist appeal

00:19:41.040 or acts as a

00:19:41.900 shield

00:19:42.200 but it's

00:19:43.960 deeper

00:19:45.420 and maybe

00:19:46.300 darker

00:19:46.980 anarchist

00:19:49.160 and revolutionary

00:19:50.680 element

00:19:51.460 which might

00:19:52.760 not inspire

00:19:53.260 the Tea Party

00:19:53.900 I'm actually

00:19:54.320 sure it

00:19:54.820 doesn't

00:19:55.120 inspire

00:19:55.380 the Tea Party

00:19:55.900 but it

00:19:57.020 has inspired

00:19:58.060 numerous

00:19:59.120 intellectuals

00:20:00.100 and so on

00:20:00.360 and so forth

00:20:00.780 and let me

00:20:01.580 just throw

00:20:02.000 out a few

00:20:02.740 ideas related

00:20:03.920 to what I

00:20:04.740 just said

00:20:05.220 and one of

00:20:06.080 them is that

00:20:06.740 libertarianism

00:20:07.640 is often

00:20:08.560 bashed

00:20:09.800 by liberals

00:20:11.300 and the

00:20:11.920 left

00:20:12.240 as an

00:20:14.380 apology

00:20:14.980 for financial

00:20:16.200 capitalism

00:20:16.880 so these

00:20:18.060 libertarians

00:20:19.100 they love

00:20:19.960 the rich

00:20:20.580 and they

00:20:21.140 want to

00:20:21.660 eat the

00:20:22.300 poor

00:20:22.680 and never

00:20:23.380 tax anyone

00:20:24.280 and this

00:20:25.080 would lead

00:20:25.520 to some

00:20:25.980 horrible

00:20:26.640 society

00:20:28.280 where corporations

00:20:29.320 enslave us

00:20:30.480 or something

00:20:31.320 like that

00:20:31.860 but you

00:20:33.020 know

00:20:33.080 it's worth

00:20:33.580 pointing out

00:20:34.500 that if

00:20:36.140 Ron Paul

00:20:36.860 were elected

00:20:38.660 president

00:20:39.220 and he

00:20:39.960 had hundreds

00:20:41.580 of Ron Pauls

00:20:42.520 in Congress

00:20:43.240 that actually

00:20:44.640 financial capitalism

00:20:45.860 as it

00:20:47.160 is currently

00:20:48.140 established

00:20:48.820 might very

00:20:49.920 well be

00:20:50.880 destroyed

00:20:51.700 and what

00:20:52.920 I'm talking

00:20:53.260 about

00:20:53.460 certainly

00:20:53.660 the banking

00:20:54.220 sector

00:20:54.700 that relies

00:20:55.640 on fiat

00:20:57.020 money creation

00:20:57.880 and fractional

00:20:58.500 reserve banking

00:20:59.120 that would be

00:20:59.640 gone

00:21:00.000 this would be

00:21:01.160 a terrible

00:21:01.720 thing for

00:21:02.260 people like

00:21:02.980 Goldman Sachs

00:21:04.180 or John

00:21:04.580 Corzine

00:21:05.220 or someone

00:21:06.040 and so forth

00:21:06.780 there's a huge

00:21:07.360 industry

00:21:08.100 involved with

00:21:10.220 war making

00:21:10.820 that would

00:21:12.400 go away

00:21:13.680 and you know

00:21:14.560 Ron Paul

00:21:15.060 might even

00:21:15.520 push it

00:21:16.080 further

00:21:16.460 he might

00:21:16.880 go towards

00:21:17.500 no state

00:21:18.460 anarchy

00:21:18.960 so there

00:21:20.140 is a

00:21:20.760 to use

00:21:22.040 your terminology

00:21:23.060 Jonathan

00:21:23.460 there is a

00:21:24.380 kind of

00:21:24.740 demonic

00:21:25.260 element

00:21:25.880 to

00:21:26.420 libertarianism

00:21:27.580 that

00:21:27.920 really

00:21:28.800 wants

00:21:29.400 to

00:21:30.020 destroy

00:21:31.540 the

00:21:31.960 establishment

00:21:32.540 and have

00:21:33.520 pure

00:21:34.240 liberty

00:21:34.720 and a

00:21:35.380 kind of

00:21:35.820 totally

00:21:36.780 undetermined

00:21:37.880 state

00:21:38.400 and so

00:21:39.500 on and so

00:21:39.800 forth

00:21:39.960 that is

00:21:40.380 probably

00:21:40.700 quite

00:21:41.300 frightening

00:21:41.800 for a lot

00:21:42.840 of people

00:21:43.240 yes

00:21:44.700 and they'll

00:21:45.340 never vote

00:21:45.820 for it

00:21:46.140 in a

00:21:46.360 clump

00:21:46.580 of

00:21:46.740 sundays

00:21:47.280 they'll

00:21:48.140 vote

00:21:48.360 for a

00:21:48.740 toned

00:21:49.060 down

00:21:49.520 sort of

00:21:51.560 populist

00:21:52.660 democratic

00:21:53.320 notion

00:21:53.940 of it

00:21:54.420 linked

00:21:55.100 to the

00:21:55.360 tea

00:21:55.540 party

00:21:55.940 linked

00:21:56.640 to

00:21:57.140 bucking

00:21:57.760 the trend

00:21:58.160 of socialized

00:21:58.840 medicine

00:21:59.200 linked

00:22:00.160 to

00:22:00.420 lower

00:22:00.720 taxes

00:22:01.160 all

00:22:01.420 round

00:22:01.820 linked

00:22:02.520 to

00:22:02.800 no

00:22:03.060 gun

00:22:03.300 control

00:22:03.880 and

00:22:04.460 linked

00:22:04.700 to

00:22:04.860 staying

00:22:05.260 out

00:22:05.460 of

00:22:05.580 foreign

00:22:05.920 wars

00:22:06.520 such as

00:22:07.420 a war

00:22:07.780 which may

00:22:08.220 or may

00:22:08.660 not be

00:22:09.220 looming

00:22:09.540 with Iran

00:22:10.120 for example

00:22:10.820 if you keep it on that level

00:22:12.520 then there's quite a lot of support

00:22:14.120 for a proportion of those ideas

00:22:16.280 but the

00:22:17.340 demonic subtext

00:22:18.760 to libertarianism

00:22:19.800 which you detect

00:22:20.740 and which is certainly there

00:22:22.400 is part and parcel

00:22:24.080 of the fact

00:22:24.460 that it's now

00:22:25.140 a revolutionary ideology

00:22:26.380 in its own terms

00:22:27.700 and it is a pure ideology

00:22:29.900 again in its own terms

00:22:32.160 it's a sort of fractal

00:22:33.400 one of these sort of dissonant images

00:22:35.280 that you can create on a computer screen

00:22:37.140 it's another entity

00:22:40.140 and a thing in and of itself

00:22:42.500 it has

00:22:43.840 its own

00:22:44.800 philosophical

00:22:45.640 predicates

00:22:46.420 and it has its own

00:22:47.640 philosophical

00:22:48.240 maximalization

00:22:49.680 whereby

00:22:50.640 it perceives

00:22:51.920 a total solution

00:22:53.280 to almost all

00:22:54.560 social

00:22:55.060 civic

00:22:55.480 and human

00:22:56.260 problems

00:22:57.000 it's

00:22:58.800 anti-totalitarian

00:22:59.920 in the most basic

00:23:00.740 of resources

00:23:01.400 because of its

00:23:02.680 libertarian

00:23:03.260 posturing

00:23:03.980 but there is a degree

00:23:05.360 to which

00:23:05.820 it is a total answer

00:23:07.120 it's

00:23:08.200 it is a very

00:23:09.460 extreme ideology

00:23:10.420 actually

00:23:10.840 and almost all developments

00:23:12.700 in the western world

00:23:13.820 since about 1910

00:23:15.500 are running

00:23:16.660 in an anti-libertarian

00:23:17.920 direction

00:23:18.480 more state power

00:23:19.940 more state intervention

00:23:21.420 more civics

00:23:22.940 and culture

00:23:23.480 based upon the same

00:23:24.780 less and less

00:23:27.180 room

00:23:27.700 for a naked

00:23:28.480 capitalism

00:23:29.180 more and more

00:23:30.460 management

00:23:30.960 of everything

00:23:31.740 more and more

00:23:32.740 capitalism

00:23:33.200 being one of the partners

00:23:34.620 with the state

00:23:35.400 in management

00:23:36.080 something libertarians

00:23:37.340 always forget

00:23:38.080 the capitalism

00:23:39.000 is very happy

00:23:39.720 to have

00:23:40.820 lots of

00:23:42.220 proximate relations

00:23:43.220 with state institutions

00:23:44.440 which are both

00:23:45.500 which are mutually

00:23:46.300 beneficial

00:23:46.860 for both sides

00:23:47.900 the degree

00:23:48.740 to which

00:23:49.020 crony capitalism

00:23:50.040 is part of capitalism

00:23:51.580 is part of the agenda

00:23:53.260 that libertarians

00:23:54.080 always miss out

00:23:55.080 because they have

00:23:56.260 a heaven on earth

00:23:56.980 view of capitalism

00:23:57.820 they have an idealized

00:23:59.980 view of capitalism

00:24:01.020 which is

00:24:01.500 as shorn of reality

00:24:03.000 in certain respects

00:24:04.220 as the communist

00:24:05.540 vision of the working class

00:24:06.840 in western societies

00:24:08.260 was for most

00:24:09.560 of the 20th century

00:24:10.500 and all of the 19th century

00:24:11.980 so it's a deep

00:24:13.540 there are mystical

00:24:14.540 elements to it

00:24:15.420 in a strange sort of way

00:24:16.420 for something which is

00:24:17.440 otherwise so hard

00:24:18.560 drawn

00:24:19.340 materialist

00:24:21.220 and dry

00:24:23.220 and rather desiccated

00:24:24.840 particularly in its

00:24:25.600 economic patchwork

00:24:26.980 so there are

00:24:28.860 unbridled forms

00:24:30.200 of extremism

00:24:31.040 that lurk

00:24:31.580 at the heart of it

00:24:32.440 and at the heart of it

00:24:33.660 there's an economist

00:24:34.380 I think he's called

00:24:35.180 Shuntra

00:24:35.700 who believes

00:24:37.120 in anarchic capitalism

00:24:38.400 and the creative

00:24:39.820 destruction

00:24:40.400 of the market mechanism

00:24:41.620 whereby markets

00:24:43.260 should be allowed

00:24:43.860 to fail

00:24:44.480 and when they have

00:24:45.680 dysfunction

00:24:46.260 such as the recent

00:24:47.540 banking and credit

00:24:48.440 crisis

00:24:48.960 all of those banks

00:24:50.360 that were propped up

00:24:51.280 in North America

00:24:52.100 Japan

00:24:52.820 Western Europe

00:24:53.880 Britain

00:24:54.260 and elsewhere

00:24:54.820 should all have been

00:24:55.780 allowed to go to the wall

00:24:56.900 they should all have

00:24:59.160 been allowed to fail

00:24:59.940 not just one

00:25:00.900 the Lehman Brothers

00:25:04.200 that was allowed

00:25:04.960 to go to the wall

00:25:05.780 as an example

00:25:06.600 to the others

00:25:07.500 but as a solitary

00:25:09.120 example

00:25:09.820 every one of them

00:25:11.560 should have gone

00:25:12.120 the Lehman route

00:25:13.000 and bankers

00:25:13.960 should have been

00:25:14.340 plunging from the

00:25:15.180 tops of high rises

00:25:16.200 and committing suicide

00:25:17.620 en masse

00:25:18.360 as a small number

00:25:19.580 of them did

00:25:20.120 in the 1930s

00:25:21.180 during the great

00:25:21.720 stock market crash

00:25:22.680 then

00:25:23.080 but what

00:25:24.960 the libertarianism

00:25:25.900 fails to realize

00:25:26.860 is the socioeconomic

00:25:28.960 consequences

00:25:29.800 of allowing markets

00:25:32.320 to fail

00:25:32.880 to that degree

00:25:33.620 so that they can

00:25:34.240 then start up again

00:25:35.100 in a purest way

00:25:36.240 is so great

00:25:37.640 and the misery

00:25:39.000 that will be inflicted

00:25:40.060 on tens of millions

00:25:41.180 is so great

00:25:42.720 that in democracy

00:25:43.980 it is literally

00:25:45.020 unfathomable

00:25:46.700 and

00:25:47.520 ill proportioned

00:25:49.200 and cannot be permitted

00:25:50.220 the danger

00:25:51.820 the danger to the system

00:25:52.540 is who these people

00:25:53.440 would start voting for

00:25:54.760 if the entire economic rug

00:25:56.900 was pulled from beneath them

00:25:58.160 in so radical

00:25:58.920 and brutal a way

00:26:00.300 and you would have

00:26:02.160 the most unlikely people

00:26:03.360 emerging from the fringes

00:26:04.660 possibly

00:26:05.100 in the seat of large votes

00:26:07.240 which is what of course

00:26:08.200 partly happened

00:26:08.860 in the 1930s

00:26:10.060 and which is still

00:26:11.160 the terror

00:26:11.680 that stalks

00:26:12.820 mainstream democracy

00:26:13.720 to this day

00:26:14.580 but if there is a collapse

00:26:16.140 who do people

00:26:17.480 still are voting for

00:26:18.560 and it won't be

00:26:19.700 for the Mitt Romneys

00:26:21.240 of this world

00:26:21.960 I completely agree

00:26:24.360 we actually had

00:26:25.240 something like

00:26:26.800 what you describe

00:26:27.600 in a microcosm

00:26:29.960 in Iceland

00:26:31.100 and they actually

00:26:32.500 went hard left

00:26:34.160 but in an interesting

00:26:35.280 strange way

00:26:36.660 you had the first

00:26:37.540 lesbian head of state

00:26:39.360 that's right

00:26:41.340 yeah

00:26:41.680 whatever you want

00:26:42.940 to say about that

00:26:43.560 but I do agree

00:26:45.000 that there is

00:26:47.060 a deep fear

00:26:48.360 of the establishment

00:26:49.640 of a real collapse

00:26:51.080 and a kind of reset

00:26:52.760 or a new paradigm

00:26:54.200 taking part

00:26:56.320 much as we saw

00:26:57.380 in the 1920s

00:26:59.320 and 1930s

00:27:00.120 in Europe

00:27:01.440 of course

00:27:01.920 I will add

00:27:03.080 to what you said

00:27:03.860 that

00:27:04.860 and I'll

00:27:05.860 translate that

00:27:07.640 into my next question

00:27:08.740 which is probably

00:27:10.180 the response

00:27:11.020 to this

00:27:12.140 by a lot of

00:27:13.000 libertarians

00:27:14.700 would be that

00:27:15.540 yes

00:27:16.460 a cleansing

00:27:18.320 of the system

00:27:19.340 would be

00:27:21.640 quite painful

00:27:22.660 but it would be

00:27:23.460 probably

00:27:24.160 very short

00:27:25.160 and it could be

00:27:27.400 something that could

00:27:28.040 be overcome

00:27:28.560 however

00:27:29.120 the status

00:27:30.800 and welfare

00:27:31.540 measures

00:27:32.100 that are used

00:27:32.840 to prevent

00:27:33.680 the cleansing

00:27:34.340 of the system

00:27:35.100 will essentially

00:27:37.180 perpetuate

00:27:38.400 a slow

00:27:39.900 misery

00:27:41.260 for 20 years

00:27:43.080 or something like this

00:27:43.880 and I actually think

00:27:44.680 they might very well

00:27:45.520 be right about that

00:27:47.220 but at the very least

00:27:49.040 the establishment

00:27:50.180 views that

00:27:52.300 as somehow

00:27:52.920 more stable

00:27:53.720 and not

00:27:54.580 something that could

00:27:55.760 give rise

00:27:56.420 to a new

00:27:57.180 kind of politics

00:27:57.960 and I want to

00:27:59.920 translate that

00:28:00.940 into

00:28:01.440 another question

00:28:03.840 and

00:28:04.500 Murray Rothbard

00:28:05.420 discussed this

00:28:06.140 and also

00:28:06.640 my

00:28:07.580 friend

00:28:09.340 Justin Raimondo

00:28:10.680 has talked about it

00:28:12.000 as well

00:28:12.840 and that is

00:28:13.420 there was a kind

00:28:14.480 of naive

00:28:15.220 libertarianism

00:28:16.520 for many years

00:28:17.920 that believed

00:28:18.740 that essentially

00:28:19.360 the world

00:28:19.940 is always getting

00:28:21.000 better

00:28:21.340 that

00:28:21.720 there is an

00:28:22.880 arrow to history

00:28:23.960 and it points

00:28:25.020 towards

00:28:25.700 civilization

00:28:26.720 and liberty

00:28:27.760 and

00:28:28.440 finely tuned

00:28:30.080 well-functioning

00:28:31.160 markets

00:28:31.680 and so on

00:28:32.740 and so forth

00:28:33.340 but actually

00:28:35.020 you know

00:28:35.640 that

00:28:36.640 view of the world

00:28:37.880 really hasn't

00:28:38.660 played out

00:28:39.240 and it obviously

00:28:40.180 looked quite bad

00:28:41.240 and

00:28:41.440 in things like

00:28:43.080 world wars

00:28:43.820 and so on and so forth

00:28:44.560 in the first half

00:28:45.200 of the century

00:28:45.700 but even if you take

00:28:46.940 the relatively more

00:28:47.780 peaceful second half

00:28:48.900 of the 20th century

00:28:50.200 it is one

00:28:51.720 that is unequivocally

00:28:52.900 about the state

00:28:54.300 eating up

00:28:55.040 more and more

00:28:55.720 of the economy

00:28:56.380 of states

00:28:57.060 becoming larger

00:28:58.280 and more empowered

00:28:59.780 of states

00:29:00.640 having the ability

00:29:01.500 to listen

00:29:02.680 to your phone calls

00:29:03.700 and read your emails

00:29:04.520 something that

00:29:05.340 I don't think

00:29:06.800 Joseph Stalin

00:29:07.720 could really imagine

00:29:09.240 doing on the scale

00:29:10.560 that the United States

00:29:11.340 government can do

00:29:12.120 and so if

00:29:13.720 anything

00:29:14.400 if we look back

00:29:15.220 at the

00:29:15.940 foreseeable past

00:29:17.860 the arrow of history

00:29:19.580 seems to lead

00:29:20.580 towards

00:29:21.300 you know

00:29:22.540 tyranny

00:29:23.020 or some kind of

00:29:24.340 totalitarianism

00:29:25.660 or something like that

00:29:26.320 so Jonathan

00:29:27.240 do you think

00:29:27.920 that

00:29:28.340 we might be

00:29:30.420 at the

00:29:30.880 end of a cycle

00:29:32.440 of the growth

00:29:33.800 of the state

00:29:34.520 like this

00:29:35.040 or do you think

00:29:36.340 this could turn around

00:29:37.360 or do you think

00:29:38.520 that that is true

00:29:39.400 that there

00:29:40.040 that the

00:29:41.440 the state

00:29:43.240 is such a powerful

00:29:44.440 force

00:29:45.020 that it will grow

00:29:46.760 to almost

00:29:48.060 envelop

00:29:48.920 societies

00:29:50.380 and economies

00:29:51.160 yes I think

00:29:53.380 yes there's a large

00:29:55.180 number of points

00:29:55.920 there

00:29:56.300 I think

00:29:56.800 to seize

00:29:57.760 one of them

00:29:58.280 first

00:29:58.760 I think

00:29:59.160 libertarianism

00:29:59.880 has always been

00:30:00.540 a naive view

00:30:01.520 it's always had

00:30:04.140 partly because

00:30:05.040 it is a very

00:30:05.520 radical

00:30:05.960 and revolutionary

00:30:06.740 view

00:30:07.400 but the revolution

00:30:08.540 it comes out of

00:30:09.580 is the early stages

00:30:10.920 of the French revolution

00:30:11.900 the post-physiocratic

00:30:13.640 early stages

00:30:15.000 until the revolution

00:30:15.820 really got

00:30:16.480 going

00:30:18.160 and the guillotine

00:30:19.340 started coming in

00:30:20.500 as soon as you use

00:30:21.600 physical force

00:30:22.540 to get your way

00:30:23.440 libertarianism

00:30:24.600 is lost

00:30:25.240 because of course

00:30:26.200 libertarians don't believe

00:30:27.240 in using physical force

00:30:28.560 to get your way

00:30:29.300 they believe in

00:30:30.140 rational arguments

00:30:31.040 and they believe in

00:30:32.040 the invisible hand

00:30:33.140 of social brotherhood

00:30:35.080 through the market

00:30:35.680 mechanism

00:30:36.260 as the way

00:30:37.180 to solve all

00:30:37.800 problems

00:30:38.420 I think

00:30:39.540 the naivety

00:30:40.500 of this type

00:30:42.100 of liberalism

00:30:42.960 is that

00:30:44.680 it hasn't even

00:30:46.100 come to terms

00:30:47.200 with the mass

00:30:47.740 society

00:30:48.300 that was created

00:30:49.040 in all western

00:30:49.880 societies

00:30:50.520 during the 20th century

00:30:52.060 it's

00:30:54.040 one of the biggest

00:30:55.580 agencies in the

00:30:56.460 United States

00:30:57.160 is the NSA

00:30:58.080 the national security

00:30:59.860 agency

00:31:00.380 the equivalent of

00:31:02.240 which is GCHQ

00:31:03.340 in Britain

00:31:03.820 and these agencies

00:31:05.560 exist to spy on

00:31:06.900 the domestic

00:31:07.440 population

00:31:08.240 primarily electronically

00:31:10.060 and also to spy

00:31:11.560 on all foreign

00:31:12.540 media

00:31:13.000 and enormous

00:31:14.300 amount of

00:31:14.720 foreign electronic

00:31:15.640 media as well

00:31:16.700 now all of these

00:31:18.300 institutions are

00:31:19.160 deeply illiberal

00:31:20.020 and deeply

00:31:21.040 non-libertarian

00:31:22.040 and yet when

00:31:22.940 states constitute

00:31:23.760 themselves

00:31:24.280 they're the first

00:31:24.860 thing they think

00:31:25.540 of

00:31:25.900 I don't think

00:31:27.000 the NSA

00:31:27.400 publicly was

00:31:28.180 admitted to

00:31:28.640 existence

00:31:29.020 until about

00:31:29.460 1980

00:31:30.080 GCHQ

00:31:31.400 wasn't publicly

00:31:32.060 admitted to

00:31:32.640 existence

00:31:33.000 until about

00:31:33.380 1990

00:31:33.940 but these

00:31:35.320 institutions

00:31:35.940 have in one

00:31:36.640 form or another

00:31:37.240 existed throughout

00:31:38.080 most of the

00:31:38.560 20th century

00:31:39.360 whereby a

00:31:41.040 proportion

00:31:41.680 of the

00:31:43.220 indigenous

00:31:44.800 population

00:31:45.620 is spied

00:31:46.440 on

00:31:46.800 by the

00:31:48.300 state

00:31:48.820 libertarians

00:31:50.860 when they

00:31:51.260 bother to

00:31:51.660 think about

00:31:52.040 these things

00:31:52.480 at all

00:31:52.960 are flustered

00:31:54.060 and regarded

00:31:54.740 as totally

00:31:55.920 immoral

00:31:56.480 and inhuman

00:31:57.600 and the

00:31:58.400 proximity

00:31:58.780 that we

00:31:59.440 have to

00:32:00.140 third world

00:32:01.440 demagogic

00:32:02.220 dictatorships

00:32:03.100 and

00:32:03.760 Stalinist

00:32:04.440 regimes

00:32:04.900 and so

00:32:05.380 forth

00:32:05.780 and yet

00:32:06.840 the state's

00:32:08.260 first instinct

00:32:09.260 is to gather

00:32:10.720 information about

00:32:11.880 those it governs

00:32:13.000 as a core

00:32:13.820 prerequisite

00:32:14.420 so states

00:32:16.080 are illiberal

00:32:17.340 from the

00:32:17.980 very moment

00:32:18.520 they set up

00:32:19.040 espionage

00:32:19.540 services

00:32:19.980 to spy on

00:32:21.000 foreign states

00:32:21.900 and to

00:32:22.600 spy on people

00:32:23.220 in their own

00:32:23.880 polities

00:32:24.600 and libertarianism

00:32:27.460 always thinks

00:32:28.380 it can do away

00:32:29.240 with this sort

00:32:30.140 of world

00:32:30.760 it can do away

00:32:31.960 with much of

00:32:34.000 the infrastructure

00:32:34.920 of social

00:32:35.440 policing

00:32:35.900 for example

00:32:37.140 often in a

00:32:39.300 quite

00:32:39.660 naive way

00:32:41.740 the reverse

00:32:42.740 of a truculent

00:32:43.440 way

00:32:44.000 and it's as if

00:32:45.280 the 20th century

00:32:46.740 is the world

00:32:47.760 they want to

00:32:48.300 get away from

00:32:49.060 it's essentially

00:32:49.640 they want to

00:32:50.160 step out of

00:32:51.060 because of course

00:32:52.240 in the 19th century

00:32:53.780 the state was

00:32:54.920 much smaller

00:32:55.660 in western terms

00:32:57.860 much more

00:32:58.700 laissez-faire

00:32:59.520 surveillance of the

00:33:00.960 citizen would be

00:33:01.840 nil

00:33:02.280 but also of course

00:33:04.420 stateful concern

00:33:06.340 whether you lived

00:33:06.960 or died or not

00:33:07.720 was nil as well

00:33:08.700 people if they

00:33:10.820 had recourse

00:33:11.280 to charity

00:33:11.820 and so on

00:33:12.300 had to do

00:33:13.080 with workhouses

00:33:14.740 and religious

00:33:15.500 institutions

00:33:16.360 which looked after

00:33:17.560 those right at the

00:33:18.380 bottom of the

00:33:18.860 social heap

00:33:19.640 with which

00:33:20.800 libertarianism

00:33:21.480 is not really

00:33:22.260 particularly concerned

00:33:23.600 although it does

00:33:24.660 talk a lot about

00:33:25.400 the voluntary sector

00:33:26.300 and private charity

00:33:27.700 but yes

00:33:30.860 I do believe

00:33:31.780 that there was

00:33:33.400 a very naive

00:33:34.760 current in

00:33:35.500 libertarian thinking

00:33:36.420 that thought that

00:33:37.340 history was

00:33:38.220 with a few

00:33:39.360 delinquencies

00:33:40.360 like communism

00:33:41.340 on an upwards

00:33:42.500 curve

00:33:43.040 towards more

00:33:44.060 and more

00:33:44.340 liberty

00:33:44.740 when I think

00:33:46.020 states are

00:33:47.380 increasingly

00:33:49.660 amassing more

00:33:50.480 and more power

00:33:51.100 to themselves

00:33:51.740 but there are

00:33:52.360 contradictory

00:33:52.780 tendencies as well

00:33:53.760 because just as

00:33:54.740 they amass all

00:33:55.300 this information

00:33:56.060 the internet

00:33:57.040 and other functions

00:33:57.800 become yet more

00:33:58.560 uncontrollable

00:33:59.420 and freedom of

00:34:00.560 information

00:34:01.040 legislation

00:34:01.940 which is a

00:34:03.240 core libertarian

00:34:04.080 axiom

00:34:05.100 although all

00:34:06.100 states loathe it

00:34:07.080 when wikileaks

00:34:08.100 and these sorts

00:34:08.980 of unofficial

00:34:09.840 libertarian

00:34:11.000 entities

00:34:11.640 go in for the

00:34:12.640 leaking of state

00:34:13.400 documents

00:34:13.820 which can be

00:34:14.340 extraordinarily

00:34:14.860 embarrassing

00:34:15.480 in terms of

00:34:16.640 interstate

00:34:17.100 relationships

00:34:17.920 but nevertheless

00:34:18.980 the state

00:34:22.800 itself

00:34:23.500 is double edged

00:34:25.020 about a lot

00:34:25.620 of these things

00:34:26.280 you can get

00:34:26.800 an enormous

00:34:27.260 amount of

00:34:27.780 information

00:34:28.140 about what

00:34:28.600 states are up

00:34:29.240 to now

00:34:29.880 of a sort

00:34:30.980 which 30 to 40

00:34:31.940 years ago

00:34:32.400 at the height

00:34:32.760 of the cold

00:34:33.200 war

00:34:33.580 was much more

00:34:34.620 problematical

00:34:35.240 to get your

00:34:35.780 hands on

00:34:36.380 and all of this

00:34:37.360 is a result

00:34:37.940 of libertarian

00:34:38.800 pressures

00:34:39.300 and yet at the

00:34:40.380 same time

00:34:40.880 the state

00:34:41.260 insists on

00:34:41.800 taking yet

00:34:42.300 more information

00:34:43.180 and assessing

00:34:44.320 more people

00:34:45.120 at any one

00:34:46.020 time

00:34:46.500 there was a

00:34:48.060 book in

00:34:48.540 Britain in

00:34:49.040 the 1980s

00:34:49.840 called

00:34:50.020 Spycatcher

00:34:50.780 that was

00:34:51.760 banned by

00:34:52.360 the British

00:34:52.700 state

00:34:53.320 even though

00:34:55.900 it was

00:34:56.100 smuggled into

00:34:56.620 the country

00:34:57.100 and you could

00:34:57.480 get it if

00:34:57.880 you wanted

00:34:58.380 it's now

00:34:59.820 totally available

00:35:00.620 and the reason

00:35:01.840 it was banned

00:35:02.400 is because it

00:35:03.000 released a lot

00:35:03.860 of the mechanisms

00:35:04.480 the security

00:35:05.060 services use

00:35:06.060 partly to

00:35:07.620 investigate

00:35:08.580 what a

00:35:09.400 proportion of

00:35:09.880 the population

00:35:10.380 is up to

00:35:11.100 and it

00:35:13.420 revealed all

00:35:14.060 sorts of

00:35:14.380 things about

00:35:14.900 GCHQ

00:35:15.900 and phone

00:35:17.200 tapping

00:35:17.600 and that

00:35:18.400 sort of

00:35:18.720 thing

00:35:18.960 and one

00:35:19.440 of the

00:35:19.660 systems

00:35:20.140 it revealed

00:35:21.800 the existence

00:35:22.340 of is

00:35:22.720 something called

00:35:23.180 Echelon

00:35:23.740 there will be

00:35:24.840 an American

00:35:25.280 equivalent

00:35:25.800 whereby two

00:35:27.160 million phone

00:35:27.840 calls can be

00:35:28.420 listened to

00:35:28.880 at once

00:35:29.540 but the phone

00:35:30.540 calls are not

00:35:31.000 listened to

00:35:31.420 individually

00:35:31.940 they're listening

00:35:33.080 for key

00:35:33.520 words

00:35:34.080 which if

00:35:36.780 people say

00:35:37.380 them long

00:35:37.800 enough and

00:35:38.280 hard enough

00:35:38.920 eventually

00:35:39.700 there will be

00:35:40.660 an electronic

00:35:41.080 trace left

00:35:42.160 and then

00:35:43.180 call might be

00:35:43.940 intercepted and

00:35:44.680 monitored again

00:35:45.280 by a machine

00:35:46.000 it wouldn't

00:35:46.880 reach a human

00:35:47.540 being for many

00:35:48.520 stages after

00:35:49.280 that

00:35:49.700 and this is

00:35:52.340 the very

00:35:52.840 advanced use

00:35:53.680 of technology

00:35:54.360 the technology

00:35:54.980 that's being

00:35:55.480 used is utterly

00:35:56.240 state-of-the-art

00:35:57.140 it's pentagon

00:35:57.860 technology

00:35:58.580 cutting edge

00:35:59.740 thereof

00:36:00.380 and it's used

00:36:01.420 in order to

00:36:02.000 restrict the

00:36:02.500 liberty of the

00:36:03.060 citizen

00:36:03.360 and it's also

00:36:04.960 used in the

00:36:05.540 citizens interest

00:36:06.280 to protect

00:36:06.820 citizens from

00:36:08.080 terrorism

00:36:08.580 and from

00:36:09.480 criminality

00:36:10.080 and from the

00:36:11.580 hostility of

00:36:12.300 foreign espionage

00:36:13.100 agencies that

00:36:14.240 may wish

00:36:14.800 them and

00:36:15.160 theirs no

00:36:15.840 good whatsoever

00:36:17.000 at least up

00:36:18.640 to a point

00:36:19.220 so libertarians

00:36:21.160 are very

00:36:21.520 confused in

00:36:22.360 many ways

00:36:22.840 about what

00:36:23.260 they want

00:36:23.760 and at

00:36:24.360 times

00:36:24.960 there's a

00:36:26.040 sort of

00:36:26.300 what I

00:36:26.620 call an

00:36:27.040 amish

00:36:27.520 element to

00:36:28.180 libertarianism

00:36:28.880 you know

00:36:29.240 they want to

00:36:29.720 go back

00:36:30.260 to go

00:36:30.620 forward

00:36:31.020 to such

00:36:32.000 a degree

00:36:32.520 that small

00:36:33.720 people living

00:36:34.440 in buggies

00:36:35.200 with pre-modern

00:36:36.400 technology

00:36:37.000 I think the

00:36:37.480 amish don't

00:36:38.040 use any

00:36:38.620 item that

00:36:40.040 was developed

00:36:40.440 after about

00:36:40.980 1820 or

00:36:41.980 something like

00:36:42.480 that

00:36:42.840 yes

00:36:43.400 they have

00:36:44.320 roller skates

00:36:45.000 but no

00:36:45.400 internal

00:36:46.960 combustion

00:36:47.540 engine

00:36:48.040 yes

00:36:49.300 and it's

00:36:50.040 libertarians

00:36:50.680 at times

00:36:51.220 slightly

00:36:51.700 statily

00:36:52.900 and civically

00:36:54.240 as a bit

00:36:54.940 like that

00:36:55.720 because

00:36:56.320 at the core

00:36:57.940 of their

00:36:58.400 ideology

00:36:58.920 there is no

00:36:59.620 understanding

00:37:00.180 about how

00:37:00.780 you would

00:37:01.120 run a

00:37:01.480 modern state

00:37:02.320 even a state

00:37:04.900 that they

00:37:05.240 could approve

00:37:05.780 of

00:37:06.100 and that

00:37:07.000 posits

00:37:08.320 again the

00:37:09.000 fact that it

00:37:09.440 is a pure

00:37:09.960 form of

00:37:10.440 idealism

00:37:11.280 that it

00:37:12.240 is an

00:37:12.560 ideal about

00:37:13.360 how a

00:37:13.700 society

00:37:14.100 should be

00:37:14.980 just at

00:37:16.060 the height

00:37:16.460 of communism

00:37:17.120 after multiple

00:37:18.520 genocides

00:37:19.600 and introduction

00:37:21.540 of slavery

00:37:22.320 in communist

00:37:23.480 societies such

00:37:24.400 as Campuchia

00:37:25.140 under Pol

00:37:25.640 Pol

00:37:25.960 or communist

00:37:27.180 China under

00:37:27.860 Mao

00:37:28.280 or Stalin

00:37:29.340 Soviet Union

00:37:30.240 after all

00:37:31.140 that you

00:37:31.520 still have

00:37:32.020 Marxist

00:37:32.540 texts

00:37:32.940 available

00:37:33.420 everywhere

00:37:33.940 where the

00:37:34.740 ultimate aim

00:37:35.500 is the

00:37:35.820 withering away

00:37:36.600 of the

00:37:36.920 state

00:37:37.360 that when

00:37:38.240 the perfect

00:37:38.640 society

00:37:39.160 is being

00:37:39.540 obtained

00:37:40.040 man will

00:37:40.760 not need

00:37:41.240 the coercive

00:37:41.900 instrument

00:37:42.280 of the

00:37:42.600 state

00:37:42.880 when Marxism

00:37:43.840 and anarchism

00:37:44.440 lock hands

00:37:45.160 again after

00:37:45.880 their violent

00:37:47.040 rupture in

00:37:48.000 the 1880s

00:37:49.040 and there

00:37:49.900 will be no

00:37:50.560 state

00:37:51.120 so even

00:37:52.540 North Korea

00:37:53.240 preaches

00:37:54.080 through its

00:37:54.920 Marxist

00:37:55.460 texts

00:37:55.960 that eventually

00:37:56.900 this state

00:37:58.020 that reduces

00:37:59.100 the large

00:37:59.580 swath of the

00:38:00.060 population

00:38:00.520 to what

00:38:00.880 Westerners

00:38:01.260 consider to be

00:38:01.900 near slavery

00:38:02.640 the state

00:38:03.940 will wither

00:38:04.340 away

00:38:04.800 and so

00:38:05.900 you've got

00:38:06.280 this total

00:38:06.940 clash

00:38:07.340 between the

00:38:07.780 reality

00:38:08.220 and what

00:38:09.300 the idealism

00:38:10.380 of the

00:38:10.660 ideology

00:38:11.280 in a pure

00:38:11.860 form

00:38:12.280 says

00:38:12.700 or advocates

00:38:13.500 and there

00:38:14.460 are times

00:38:14.860 in which

00:38:15.140 libertarianism

00:38:15.860 is very

00:38:16.220 like that

00:38:16.880 but it's

00:38:17.860 not really

00:38:18.380 a form

00:38:18.740 of practical

00:38:19.220 politics

00:38:19.720 at all

00:38:20.300 but a form

00:38:21.140 of idealistic

00:38:22.180 philosophizing

00:38:23.140 based on

00:38:24.180 market

00:38:24.520 liberalism

00:38:25.180 extending out

00:38:26.320 into all

00:38:26.760 areas of

00:38:27.340 life

00:38:27.820 one of the

00:38:29.440 interesting

00:38:29.740 figures that

00:38:30.220 we haven't

00:38:30.600 mentioned yet

00:38:31.140 of course

00:38:31.580 is the

00:38:32.360 author

00:38:32.620 is Ayn Rand

00:38:33.520 I don't

00:38:35.500 know

00:38:35.960 whether

00:38:36.880 Ayn Rand

00:38:37.540 Paul's

00:38:37.840 son

00:38:38.260 he's called

00:38:40.100 Rand Paul

00:38:41.000 well actually

00:38:42.680 I do want to

00:38:43.640 talk about

00:38:44.020 Ayn Rand

00:38:44.540 I want to

00:38:45.040 ask one

00:38:45.420 question

00:38:45.740 before then

00:38:46.140 but just

00:38:46.740 to mention

00:38:47.760 that

00:38:48.140 what you

00:38:48.620 just said

00:38:49.620 I actually

00:38:50.920 heard Rand

00:38:51.640 Paul

00:38:51.980 interviewed

00:38:52.560 and this

00:38:52.980 question

00:38:53.240 was asked

00:38:53.860 and the

00:38:55.080 answer is

00:38:55.440 no

00:38:55.900 I think

00:38:57.140 his name

00:38:57.520 is actually

00:38:57.940 Randall

00:38:58.660 or Randy

00:38:59.280 and his

00:39:01.220 wife didn't

00:39:01.800 like that

00:39:02.340 name

00:39:02.600 so she

00:39:02.880 liked Rand

00:39:03.420 but it

00:39:04.400 obviously

00:39:04.860 maybe

00:39:05.800 unconsciously

00:39:07.000 he was

00:39:07.440 named after

00:39:09.500 the author

00:39:10.180 who certainly

00:39:10.580 Ron Paul

00:39:11.040 read and

00:39:11.540 said he

00:39:12.260 admired

00:39:12.560 and I

00:39:13.180 do want

00:39:13.620 to talk

00:39:13.960 about Ayn Rand

00:39:14.740 but first

00:39:16.060 I want to

00:39:16.380 ask another

00:39:17.400 question that

00:39:18.160 that's a

00:39:18.940 deep one

00:39:19.580 and that

00:39:20.540 is that

00:39:20.920 it goes back

00:39:22.400 to what I

00:39:22.660 said before

00:39:23.080 about the

00:39:23.500 arrow of

00:39:24.080 history

00:39:24.460 and so on

00:39:25.080 and so forth

00:39:25.560 and we're

00:39:26.940 living in a

00:39:27.440 time certainly

00:39:28.100 where the

00:39:28.400 state has

00:39:29.280 is larger

00:39:30.080 it takes up

00:39:30.840 more of the

00:39:31.160 economy

00:39:31.560 it has more

00:39:32.020 power

00:39:32.560 more ability

00:39:33.480 to influence

00:39:34.020 our lives

00:39:34.620 than than

00:39:35.380 ever before

00:39:36.040 and yet

00:39:36.740 there's really

00:39:37.320 also no

00:39:38.500 state in

00:39:39.480 the western

00:39:39.920 world that

00:39:41.120 isn't wildly

00:39:42.580 bankrupt

00:39:43.520 it's you

00:39:45.380 know there's

00:39:46.140 and you know

00:39:47.000 you could maybe

00:39:47.780 sense that

00:39:48.400 this you know

00:39:49.060 paying off debt

00:39:50.280 with more debt

00:39:51.020 could go on

00:39:51.800 forever or

00:39:52.460 something but

00:39:52.940 you know it

00:39:53.920 can't eventually

00:39:55.260 it will

00:39:56.560 collapse so

00:39:57.320 in some ways

00:39:58.120 we we might

00:39:58.860 be really at

00:39:59.540 a precipice

00:40:00.400 or a tipping

00:40:01.180 point in the

00:40:02.500 sense that

00:40:03.400 we're we're

00:40:04.640 witnessing the

00:40:05.660 state at its

00:40:06.720 largest expanse

00:40:08.540 but also to a

00:40:10.620 point where it

00:40:11.600 might really

00:40:12.600 collapse and

00:40:14.700 so I think

00:40:15.320 that is quite

00:40:15.940 interesting and

00:40:16.760 in this way

00:40:17.460 libertarianism

00:40:18.420 will is a

00:40:20.200 philosophy we

00:40:21.040 need to

00:40:21.400 seriously think

00:40:22.040 about

00:40:22.340 but before

00:40:23.720 we talk

00:40:24.140 about Rand

00:40:24.780 do you

00:40:25.620 think that

00:40:26.420 you know

00:40:27.400 to go back

00:40:27.860 to the

00:40:28.200 naivete of

00:40:29.100 the libertarians

00:40:29.840 that there

00:40:31.140 there really

00:40:32.080 is an

00:40:32.980 internal

00:40:33.640 urge for

00:40:35.580 a state

00:40:36.140 or maybe

00:40:36.680 there's a

00:40:37.240 historical

00:40:38.200 concrete

00:40:39.580 necessity

00:40:40.180 for a

00:40:40.880 state

00:40:41.300 and that

00:40:42.720 the libertarians

00:40:43.800 in thinking

00:40:44.480 that we don't

00:40:45.120 need one

00:40:45.700 or we need

00:40:46.260 one that is

00:40:47.040 minuscule

00:40:48.120 that maybe

00:40:48.740 has a few

00:40:49.900 one or two

00:40:50.640 courts and

00:40:51.600 and maybe

00:40:52.280 a small

00:40:52.760 very small

00:40:53.380 police force

00:40:54.120 that prevents

00:40:55.120 theft

00:40:55.780 that they're

00:40:57.240 naive

00:40:57.600 that at some

00:40:58.420 level as

00:40:59.400 Carl Schmitt

00:40:59.900 might say

00:41:00.500 that someone

00:41:01.260 must decide

00:41:02.320 someone uses

00:41:03.580 compulsion

00:41:04.380 to get it

00:41:05.620 to get his

00:41:06.180 way

00:41:06.540 someone is

00:41:07.500 sovereign

00:41:07.920 do you think

00:41:09.360 that there is

00:41:09.980 a kind of

00:41:11.820 eternal

00:41:12.800 foundation

00:41:14.720 for sovereignty

00:41:16.280 and the

00:41:16.780 state

00:41:17.120 yes I think

00:41:18.960 there is

00:41:19.400 and I think

00:41:19.820 it's very true

00:41:21.560 that there is

00:41:21.980 in the United

00:41:22.360 States of

00:41:22.800 America

00:41:23.160 I think it's

00:41:23.940 no accident

00:41:24.300 at all

00:41:24.740 that libertarianism

00:41:25.480 has become

00:41:25.980 for a fringe

00:41:26.640 ideology

00:41:27.180 such a powerful

00:41:28.280 one in the

00:41:29.160 United States

00:41:29.680 of America

00:41:30.200 there is no

00:41:31.520 other

00:41:31.820 although there

00:41:32.420 was the

00:41:32.820 Austrian

00:41:33.380 school of

00:41:33.800 economics

00:41:34.400 with von

00:41:35.220 Nises

00:41:35.480 and von

00:41:36.000 Hayek

00:41:36.440 there is no

00:41:38.220 real interest

00:41:39.340 in libertarianism

00:41:40.680 really

00:41:41.140 in Central

00:41:42.060 and Western

00:41:42.560 Europe

00:41:43.080 never mind

00:41:43.840 Eastern Europe

00:41:44.560 there is a few

00:41:45.460 libertarian

00:41:45.980 catchphrases

00:41:46.700 that go in

00:41:47.180 the circles

00:41:48.020 of debate

00:41:48.840 go round

00:41:49.400 in the circles

00:41:49.840 of debate

00:41:50.340 and there is

00:41:51.220 some interest

00:41:51.680 in Britain

00:41:52.180 because of

00:41:53.100 the Americanisation

00:41:53.880 of British

00:41:54.300 culture

00:41:54.700 since the

00:41:55.200 Second World

00:41:55.640 War

00:41:56.100 if not before

00:41:57.240 but

00:41:58.000 libertarian ideas

00:41:58.960 have really

00:41:59.380 come home

00:42:00.220 to roost

00:42:00.760 in the United

00:42:01.360 States

00:42:01.920 and this

00:42:02.640 ideal of

00:42:03.280 the republic

00:42:03.720 on the hill

00:42:04.420 with the

00:42:05.020 militia

00:42:05.500 with a

00:42:06.260 minimal state

00:42:07.140 with a

00:42:07.860 sound currency

00:42:08.560 based on

00:42:09.220 gold

00:42:09.840 with a

00:42:10.600 Protestant

00:42:10.940 morality

00:42:11.500 elements of

00:42:12.760 which are

00:42:13.060 very close

00:42:13.520 to an

00:42:13.760 orthodox

00:42:14.140 Jewish

00:42:14.480 morality

00:42:14.960 that this

00:42:16.280 state can

00:42:16.720 be kept

00:42:17.080 as minimal

00:42:17.640 as possible

00:42:18.360 that all

00:42:20.160 you basically

00:42:20.760 need is the

00:42:21.320 functioning of

00:42:21.860 the market

00:42:22.200 mechanism

00:42:22.780 these are

00:42:24.960 deeply held

00:42:25.820 American

00:42:26.480 tropes

00:42:27.280 and

00:42:28.040 libertarianism

00:42:28.720 feeds off

00:42:29.380 them

00:42:29.800 and

00:42:31.020 has attained

00:42:32.320 whatever power

00:42:33.020 and ideological

00:42:33.580 influence

00:42:34.340 cultural influence

00:42:35.720 influence of

00:42:36.300 soft power

00:42:37.060 that it has

00:42:38.220 because of

00:42:39.060 those

00:42:39.300 tropes

00:42:39.840 so it is

00:42:40.600 buying into

00:42:41.240 Americana

00:42:41.980 even the

00:42:42.840 tea party

00:42:43.320 movement

00:42:43.720 of course

00:42:44.060 is based

00:42:44.460 on an

00:42:44.760 incident

00:42:45.180 prior to

00:42:46.180 the

00:42:46.440 American

00:42:46.820 Revolution

00:42:47.380 or the

00:42:48.980 American

00:42:49.440 War of

00:42:49.780 Independence

00:42:50.260 as Britons

00:42:51.700 call it

00:42:52.100 somewhat

00:42:52.360 more

00:42:53.200 mutually

00:42:53.700 and in

00:42:54.100 a slightly

00:42:54.440 more

00:42:54.660 embarrassed

00:42:55.080 way

00:42:55.600 when

00:42:57.460 some

00:42:58.100 radicals

00:42:58.960 rode out

00:42:59.400 into

00:42:59.580 Boston

00:42:59.940 Harbour

00:43:00.500 and took

00:43:01.620 some tea

00:43:02.240 which duty

00:43:02.900 was to be

00:43:03.360 paid on

00:43:03.920 and threw

00:43:04.720 it off

00:43:05.060 the docks

00:43:05.580 and threw

00:43:05.900 it into

00:43:06.200 the water

00:43:06.700 and otherwise

00:43:07.460 ruined it

00:43:08.380 so that

00:43:09.360 they were

00:43:09.660 making the

00:43:10.120 protest

00:43:10.440 they shouldn't

00:43:11.060 have to

00:43:11.400 pay these

00:43:11.980 taxes

00:43:12.420 and these

00:43:13.240 duties

00:43:13.680 because they

00:43:14.680 wanted their

00:43:15.180 own state

00:43:16.660 but the

00:43:17.660 sort of state

00:43:18.260 that they

00:43:18.580 wanted or

00:43:19.360 felt that they

00:43:19.960 needed

00:43:20.340 was a minimal

00:43:21.700 one

00:43:22.260 an 18th century

00:43:23.480 state

00:43:24.020 in many ways

00:43:24.840 the libertarians

00:43:25.820 are arguing

00:43:26.560 to fit the

00:43:27.740 21st century

00:43:28.640 back into the

00:43:29.260 18th century

00:43:30.100 and that's

00:43:31.280 why it won't

00:43:31.860 go

00:43:32.280 because although

00:43:33.340 modern states

00:43:34.040 are bankrupt

00:43:34.660 they've done

00:43:37.180 it to include

00:43:37.820 the masses

00:43:38.280 in the state

00:43:38.880 machinery

00:43:39.400 they've done

00:43:40.620 it to include

00:43:41.600 the vast

00:43:42.480 swathes of the

00:43:43.000 population

00:43:43.520 that has no

00:43:44.260 capital

00:43:44.760 and that can't

00:43:46.580 trade in the

00:43:47.120 market

00:43:47.480 but who live

00:43:48.880 and exist

00:43:49.620 and are 40

00:43:51.160 to 50%

00:43:51.920 of the population

00:43:52.800 of western

00:43:53.260 societies

00:43:53.940 and

00:43:56.640 have to be

00:43:58.600 their education

00:43:59.380 has to be

00:43:59.820 paid for

00:44:00.240 their health

00:44:00.700 care has to

00:44:01.140 be paid for

00:44:01.780 quite often

00:44:02.540 their housing

00:44:03.120 has to be

00:44:03.660 paid for

00:44:04.340 and if they

00:44:05.120 don't work

00:44:05.880 their actual

00:44:06.820 living costs

00:44:07.400 have to be

00:44:07.820 paid for

00:44:08.460 and their

00:44:10.060 old age costs

00:44:10.860 have to be

00:44:11.280 paid for

00:44:11.920 and their

00:44:13.080 very early

00:44:13.680 life costs

00:44:14.900 have to be

00:44:15.340 paid for

00:44:15.920 they almost

00:44:16.740 have to be

00:44:17.140 looked after

00:44:17.720 from cradle

00:44:18.260 to grave

00:44:18.960 yes

00:44:19.660 there's no

00:44:20.760 longer the

00:44:21.380 church-based

00:44:21.980 institutions

00:44:22.680 and they would

00:44:23.840 not have the

00:44:24.400 reach or the

00:44:24.940 resources

00:44:25.400 even if they

00:44:26.060 had the

00:44:26.340 will

00:44:26.700 and the

00:44:27.360 social power

00:44:28.000 to do so

00:44:28.640 to reach

00:44:29.060 these people

00:44:29.540 anymore

00:44:30.020 so

00:44:31.000 libertarianism

00:44:32.840 basically

00:44:33.520 would have

00:44:34.260 to restrict

00:44:34.840 everything

00:44:35.620 back to

00:44:36.360 a quasi

00:44:36.920 18th century

00:44:37.840 way of

00:44:38.300 thinking

00:44:38.620 and it

00:44:39.440 would also

00:44:39.740 have to

00:44:40.040 restrict

00:44:40.280 democracy

00:44:40.800 because once

00:44:42.320 you give

00:44:42.660 these masses

00:44:43.140 of people

00:44:43.560 to vote

00:44:44.140 they will

00:44:44.940 vote for

00:44:45.360 candidates

00:44:45.760 and parties

00:44:46.460 and ideologies

00:44:47.260 that service

00:44:48.520 their requirements

00:44:49.380 and their

00:44:50.660 requirements are

00:44:51.300 serviced by

00:44:51.880 big trade unions

00:44:53.060 and by those

00:44:54.280 politicians that

00:44:55.280 trade unions

00:44:55.940 tend to back

00:44:56.820 who are

00:44:57.860 left democrats

00:44:58.700 in the united

00:44:59.240 states

00:44:59.900 and the

00:45:00.740 labour party

00:45:01.380 in britain

00:45:01.940 or australia

00:45:03.340 and its

00:45:04.060 current canadian

00:45:04.900 equivalent

00:45:05.380 they're the

00:45:06.600 people who

00:45:06.980 built the

00:45:07.380 welfare state

00:45:08.300 left liberal

00:45:09.660 theorists may

00:45:10.340 have created

00:45:10.880 its

00:45:11.220 structures

00:45:11.780 and its

00:45:12.880 ideology

00:45:13.480 beverage in

00:45:14.280 britain

00:45:14.700 and so on

00:45:15.740 canes in

00:45:16.360 britain

00:45:16.760 but there's a

00:45:17.660 degree to which

00:45:18.440 centre left

00:45:19.220 parties on the

00:45:20.200 votes of these

00:45:20.980 people

00:45:21.540 have brought

00:45:23.640 them about

00:45:24.240 the only way

00:45:25.540 you would return

00:45:26.180 to market

00:45:26.660 solutions for

00:45:27.400 everything is

00:45:27.880 to exclude

00:45:28.440 these people

00:45:29.060 from the

00:45:29.380 politics

00:45:29.780 is to take

00:45:30.720 their votes

00:45:31.140 away

00:45:31.560 well i think

00:45:33.120 i might even

00:45:33.700 go further

00:45:34.200 i mean i i

00:45:34.840 think the

00:45:35.500 creation of

00:45:36.800 a libertarian

00:45:37.800 order

00:45:38.220 might eventuate

00:45:40.620 in a dramatic

00:45:41.940 reduction of

00:45:42.880 the world

00:45:43.220 population

00:45:43.880 as shocking

00:45:45.480 as that might

00:45:46.160 sound

00:45:46.680 certainly i

00:45:48.060 remember when

00:45:49.160 the the

00:45:49.640 haitian

00:45:49.980 earthquake

00:45:50.320 occurred

00:45:50.820 i remember

00:45:51.320 reading

00:45:51.760 statistics

00:45:52.980 of some

00:45:53.560 60 percent

00:45:54.600 of the

00:45:55.780 haitian

00:45:56.260 economy

00:45:56.800 was

00:45:57.620 essentially

00:45:58.220 food

00:45:59.080 aid

00:45:59.660 from the

00:46:00.200 u.s

00:46:00.640 um so

00:46:02.120 you know

00:46:02.760 again this

00:46:03.520 is these

00:46:03.840 are rather

00:46:05.280 dark things

00:46:06.140 to think

00:46:06.520 about

00:46:06.880 oh yes

00:46:07.860 there's a

00:46:08.180 strong

00:46:08.480 eugenic

00:46:09.040 and dysgenic

00:46:09.600 potential

00:46:10.140 that is

00:46:10.980 why

00:46:11.580 there is

00:46:12.560 a species

00:46:13.040 of social

00:46:13.620 democratic

00:46:14.160 leftism

00:46:14.820 that regards

00:46:15.860 libertarianism

00:46:16.700 as more

00:46:17.740 cruel than

00:46:18.260 fascism

00:46:18.760 regards it

00:46:20.040 as worse

00:46:20.760 because

00:46:21.900 fascism has

00:46:22.820 a socialist

00:46:23.300 side

00:46:23.880 and looks

00:46:24.780 after people

00:46:25.320 at the

00:46:25.560 bottom

00:46:25.900 for reasons

00:46:27.000 of national

00:46:27.480 paternalism

00:46:28.340 whereas

00:46:29.060 libertarianism

00:46:29.860 has no

00:46:30.320 softness at

00:46:30.900 all and

00:46:32.000 basically those

00:46:32.820 at the bottom

00:46:33.380 go to the

00:46:33.980 wall or they

00:46:35.120 find ways in

00:46:35.940 which they

00:46:36.260 can serve

00:46:36.720 those at

00:46:37.080 the top

00:46:37.620 now that's

00:46:38.940 not how

00:46:39.420 libertarians

00:46:39.900 think of

00:46:40.320 their own

00:46:40.620 ideas at

00:46:41.320 all but

00:46:42.360 it's how

00:46:42.700 left-wing

00:46:43.080 critics think

00:46:43.800 of them

00:46:44.220 and libertarianism

00:46:45.580 is regarded

00:46:46.100 as um

00:46:46.940 by socially

00:46:49.380 minded thinkers

00:46:50.480 not all on

00:46:51.460 the left

00:46:51.820 actually because

00:46:52.460 this would be

00:46:52.940 a new right

00:46:53.480 critique of

00:46:54.000 libertarianism

00:46:54.740 along to

00:46:55.480 Benoit's

00:46:55.960 lines that

00:46:56.900 it is very

00:46:57.400 much the

00:46:57.780 morality and

00:46:58.500 the law of

00:46:58.980 the jungle

00:46:59.480 what looks

00:47:00.640 markably nice

00:47:01.640 in Hayek's

00:47:02.380 books about

00:47:03.020 capitalist markets

00:47:04.220 such as his

00:47:05.160 book attempting

00:47:06.020 to refute Marx

00:47:07.040 and the idea

00:47:07.920 that there's a

00:47:08.340 business cycle

00:47:09.120 there is no such

00:47:10.000 thing as the

00:47:10.420 business cycle

00:47:11.060 because it imputes

00:47:11.900 the idea that

00:47:12.560 markets fail

00:47:13.400 markets can

00:47:14.360 never fail

00:47:15.000 and Hayek

00:47:15.860 produced this

00:47:16.580 sort of

00:47:17.460 econometric

00:47:18.040 text

00:47:18.600 it's highly

00:47:19.100 mathematical

00:47:19.640 it's one of

00:47:20.520 the many

00:47:20.800 texts that

00:47:21.220 he won the

00:47:21.580 Nobel Prize

00:47:22.200 for economics

00:47:22.820 for

00:47:23.200 but in the

00:47:25.840 course of

00:47:26.180 this text

00:47:26.800 called the

00:47:27.200 pure theory

00:47:27.760 of capital

00:47:28.340 he's trying

00:47:29.260 to prove

00:47:29.760 that capitalism

00:47:30.360 is the only

00:47:30.880 system that

00:47:31.440 works

00:47:31.960 but the

00:47:32.760 problem with

00:47:33.300 those views

00:47:34.120 is they may

00:47:35.040 be mathematically

00:47:35.720 true

00:47:36.440 but socially

00:47:37.760 and politically

00:47:38.260 they're not

00:47:38.820 true

00:47:39.300 because they

00:47:40.280 exclude an

00:47:41.100 enormous number

00:47:41.880 of people

00:47:42.460 the reason

00:47:43.540 communism

00:47:44.040 built slave

00:47:44.740 labour camps

00:47:45.520 is it didn't

00:47:46.600 compute all the

00:47:48.080 people who

00:47:48.620 would not

00:47:49.000 fit into

00:47:49.600 utopia

00:47:50.160 what do you

00:47:51.400 do with them

00:47:52.000 what do you

00:47:53.400 do with all

00:47:53.980 these dissident

00:47:54.660 artistic types

00:47:55.640 who don't go

00:47:56.240 along with how

00:47:56.880 you think

00:47:57.380 things should

00:47:57.820 be done

00:47:58.260 what do you

00:47:59.180 do with all

00:47:59.820 religious

00:48:00.200 believers

00:48:00.720 who are an

00:48:02.700 enormous

00:48:03.160 swathe of

00:48:03.800 any population

00:48:04.700 including quite

00:48:05.920 sort of crude

00:48:06.600 primitive religious

00:48:07.560 believers

00:48:08.040 if you want to

00:48:09.080 look at it

00:48:10.100 in those terms

00:48:10.840 idol worshipping

00:48:11.820 believers if you

00:48:12.560 like who will

00:48:13.480 not give it up

00:48:14.400 will never give

00:48:15.420 it up

00:48:15.980 whomsoever

00:48:17.620 anyone says

00:48:19.180 or however

00:48:21.340 they're

00:48:21.780 pilloried or

00:48:22.520 whatever in

00:48:23.640 fashionable media

00:48:24.780 what do you

00:48:25.780 do with these

00:48:26.340 millions of

00:48:26.940 people who are

00:48:27.620 irreconcilable to

00:48:28.820 the utopia

00:48:29.440 and there are

00:48:30.880 tens and tens

00:48:31.740 of millions

00:48:32.400 if not billions

00:48:33.220 of human beings

00:48:34.220 who are surplus

00:48:35.360 to requirement

00:48:36.120 of the libertarian

00:48:37.080 model

00:48:37.480 it's quite true

00:48:40.060 well I'd like to

00:48:41.860 bring the

00:48:42.600 conversation to a

00:48:43.780 close by talking

00:48:45.260 about Ayn Rand

00:48:46.520 and I don't

00:48:48.500 know about

00:48:48.800 yourself but

00:48:49.600 I know with

00:48:50.920 me and with

00:48:52.380 a number of

00:48:53.040 other of my

00:48:53.900 friends and

00:48:54.820 colleagues most

00:48:55.700 all of us went

00:48:56.460 through a Ayn Rand

00:48:58.000 phase in our

00:48:59.580 lives and that

00:49:00.540 usually occurred

00:49:01.400 in high school

00:49:02.180 for me I believe

00:49:03.660 I was a sophomore

00:49:04.400 in college and I

00:49:05.320 can actually

00:49:05.660 remember even

00:49:06.460 picking out the

00:49:07.980 fountainhead from

00:49:08.860 the university

00:49:10.200 bookstore and

00:49:11.260 reading it and

00:49:12.420 devouring it and

00:49:13.980 finding it quite

00:49:16.040 inspiring and

00:49:17.120 certainly something

00:49:17.780 I remember

00:49:18.100 thinking through

00:49:19.000 libertarian ideology

00:49:20.280 while I was

00:49:21.520 riding my bike

00:49:22.300 back to the

00:49:22.860 dorm after

00:49:23.920 classes you

00:49:25.240 know thinking

00:49:25.520 oh you know

00:49:26.360 is a market

00:49:27.760 intervention

00:49:28.280 unjustified even

00:49:29.480 here and so

00:49:30.200 on and so

00:49:30.480 forth so I

00:49:31.840 think it has

00:49:32.440 I think it is

00:49:33.540 in many ways

00:49:34.420 a positive

00:49:34.900 thing for

00:49:36.180 younger people

00:49:36.800 I think most

00:49:37.560 of us get

00:49:39.280 over it get

00:49:40.540 over Ayn Rand

00:49:41.160 but I

00:49:41.940 actually say

00:49:42.600 I will say

00:49:43.400 I still do

00:49:44.100 like her and

00:49:44.860 I still do

00:49:45.700 admire her

00:49:46.200 writings and

00:49:46.720 I guess the

00:49:47.380 question I

00:49:48.220 want to bring

00:49:48.680 up for you

00:49:49.700 Jonathan is

00:49:50.460 that Ayn Rand's

00:49:52.580 economics were

00:49:53.960 essentially taken

00:49:55.080 lock, stock, and

00:49:56.360 barrel from

00:49:57.240 Ludwig von Mises

00:49:58.260 she believes in

00:49:59.880 a gold standard

00:50:00.840 and a minimal

00:50:01.960 state and

00:50:02.980 very American in

00:50:04.500 some ways a

00:50:05.280 constitutional

00:50:05.960 government so

00:50:06.720 and so forth

00:50:07.220 but I think in

00:50:09.240 some ways what

00:50:10.100 inspires people

00:50:11.760 from Rand's

00:50:13.060 work are not

00:50:15.120 those things

00:50:16.080 and they're

00:50:16.780 actually some

00:50:18.360 of the demonic

00:50:19.680 aspects of her

00:50:20.500 work but I

00:50:21.000 might even call

00:50:21.660 them the kind

00:50:22.320 of fascistic

00:50:23.860 aspects to the

00:50:24.700 work and that

00:50:25.280 would obviously

00:50:25.940 greatly offend

00:50:27.140 most of Ayn Rand's

00:50:29.420 admirers and

00:50:31.000 certainly her

00:50:31.800 legacy keepers

00:50:33.060 at the moment

00:50:34.240 but these books

00:50:35.280 do sell around

00:50:36.480 200,000 copies a

00:50:38.100 year in the

00:50:38.640 United States

00:50:39.280 from what I've

00:50:40.320 read and that

00:50:41.060 is actually

00:50:41.460 that's quite

00:50:41.960 incredible for

00:50:42.640 books that are

00:50:43.020 written two books

00:50:44.080 in particular the

00:50:44.740 Fountainhead and

00:50:45.320 Atlas Shrugged

00:50:46.200 which were written

00:50:46.640 in the 1940s and

00:50:48.100 1950s and let me

00:50:49.840 just read very

00:50:51.240 briefly from the

00:50:52.600 first page of the

00:50:54.220 Fountainhead which

00:50:55.940 is a very

00:50:56.680 interesting book

00:50:57.520 it includes you

00:50:58.220 know Howard

00:50:58.740 Rourke laughed

00:51:00.140 he stood naked

00:51:01.940 at the edge of a

00:51:03.300 cliff the lake

00:51:04.820 lay far below him

00:51:06.300 a frozen explosion

00:51:08.400 of granite burst

00:51:10.000 in flight to the

00:51:10.960 sky over motionless

00:51:12.580 water the water

00:51:13.960 seemed unmovable

00:51:14.980 the stone flowing

00:51:16.480 the stone had the

00:51:17.860 stillness of one

00:51:18.740 brief moment in

00:51:19.940 battle when thrust

00:51:21.300 meets thrust and

00:51:22.640 the currents are

00:51:23.400 held in a pause

00:51:24.540 more dynamic than

00:51:25.620 motion the stone

00:51:27.180 glowed wet with

00:51:29.360 sun rays and I'll

00:51:30.560 just go down a

00:51:31.340 little bit he knew

00:51:33.260 that's Howard he

00:51:34.080 knew that the

00:51:34.800 days ahead would

00:51:35.900 be difficult there

00:51:37.040 were questions to

00:51:37.740 be faced and a

00:51:38.860 plan of action to

00:51:40.000 be prepared he knew

00:51:41.360 that he should think

00:51:42.220 about it he knew

00:51:43.040 also that he would

00:51:44.380 not think because

00:51:45.660 everything was clear

00:51:46.680 to him already

00:51:47.400 because the plan had

00:51:48.820 been set long ago

00:51:50.080 and because he wanted

00:51:51.260 to laugh and you

00:51:53.100 know Howard Rourke

00:51:54.080 along with John

00:51:55.760 Galt who's an even

00:51:56.560 more mysterious

00:51:57.440 protagonist in his

00:51:59.000 in her novel Atlas

00:52:00.000 Shrugged they are

00:52:02.120 aesthetically speaking

00:52:03.640 Aryan gods or

00:52:05.960 maybe gods from a

00:52:07.800 Greco-Roman statue

00:52:09.580 they're described as

00:52:10.720 having blonde or

00:52:11.720 or in Howard's case

00:52:12.940 I guess reddish hair

00:52:14.360 they're described as

00:52:15.560 high cheekbones as

00:52:16.860 handsome as tall as

00:52:18.980 angular and sharp

00:52:20.980 maybe in their

00:52:22.200 posturing in their

00:52:23.400 body and so you

00:52:25.120 have kind of Aryan

00:52:26.440 heroes and she

00:52:27.700 describes them in

00:52:28.600 these romantic ways

00:52:30.580 and and even though

00:52:31.660 she she does believe

00:52:32.640 in in liberty and

00:52:33.860 and and and the gold

00:52:35.220 standard and so on and

00:52:36.080 so forth what's maybe

00:52:37.940 inspiring about these

00:52:39.740 figures is that they

00:52:41.300 are supermen they want

00:52:42.380 to go build a new

00:52:43.440 world they want to

00:52:44.300 build great skyscrapers

00:52:46.420 in the sky and

00:52:47.520 stainless steel bridges

00:52:48.700 that stretch on for

00:52:49.580 miles and that and

00:52:50.800 that this this is kind

00:52:51.920 of inspiring in a way

00:52:53.200 that we want to worship

00:52:54.380 great men and and it's

00:52:55.880 worth pointing out that

00:52:56.760 all of the great

00:52:57.640 antagonists all the

00:52:59.460 villains in Ayn Rand's

00:53:00.740 pieces are essentially

00:53:02.280 a horrible little

00:53:03.760 cultural Marxist

00:53:05.000 they're they're two

00:53:05.760 II I guess in the

00:53:06.420 Fountainhead who he

00:53:07.740 his his famous he has

00:53:09.000 a famous line which I

00:53:10.020 love which is I play

00:53:11.480 the stock market of

00:53:12.440 the soul and I sell

00:53:13.840 short so essentially

00:53:15.200 he's this he you know

00:53:16.340 not by economic means

00:53:17.600 but by cultural and

00:53:18.880 and spiritual means he's

00:53:20.780 going to level down

00:53:22.500 society to a bunch of

00:53:24.580 drones and children or

00:53:26.180 so and so forth and you

00:53:27.120 have you have

00:53:27.640 all the people in

00:53:28.460 Atlas Shrugged or you

00:53:29.200 know Wesley Mooch

00:53:30.400 these these you know

00:53:31.560 little horrible little

00:53:32.820 creatures that are in

00:53:33.840 Washington and they want

00:53:35.100 to regulate everyone so

00:53:36.500 in some ways what's

00:53:37.480 inspiring about Ayn Rand is

00:53:39.500 this I'll just say

00:53:40.800 fascistic element this

00:53:42.540 this this hero worship

00:53:44.520 and and the view that

00:53:46.360 there are all these evil

00:53:47.720 little insects that want

00:53:50.220 to bring down the great

00:53:51.540 man so am I right about

00:53:54.540 this Jonathan or am I

00:53:55.460 am I reading a little too

00:53:56.380 much into it

00:53:57.120 no I think you're

00:53:58.260 absolutely right and she

00:53:59.860 exemplifies the tension

00:54:01.280 in libertarianism

00:54:02.360 she's almost single

00:54:04.140 handedly the reason for

00:54:07.640 much of its success

00:54:08.780 yes because she's

00:54:11.060 essentially a romantic

00:54:12.120 and a heroic sort of

00:54:13.740 Greco-Roman romantic

00:54:15.000 who comes quite close to

00:54:19.240 advocating a raceless

00:54:20.680 type of fascism or

00:54:22.780 quasi-fascism aesthetically

00:54:24.480 and psychologically and

00:54:26.440 emotionally but in no

00:54:28.040 other respects and it's

00:54:29.780 those elements of her

00:54:30.860 work which have created

00:54:32.020 the great buzz around it

00:54:33.460 and which has led to the

00:54:34.940 enormous sales because the

00:54:38.520 the rather boring dry and

00:54:40.100 arid stuff about a rooted

00:54:41.500 gold standard and the

00:54:42.760 clearing at the market

00:54:43.640 rate doesn't really cut it

00:54:45.580 right so when you have the

00:54:47.600 scene in the fountainhead

00:54:48.880 where to me and his

00:54:50.240 associates have taken away

00:54:52.560 the secular cathedral that

00:54:55.080 Rourke has built with the

00:54:56.480 sculptor right even to the

00:54:59.260 heroic qualities in man and

00:55:01.620 have replaced it with a

00:55:02.720 hospital for children with

00:55:05.140 cerebral palsy and those who

00:55:07.120 otherwise afflicted and then

00:55:09.540 Rourke and Dominic Franco

00:55:10.980 blow it up yeah something like

00:55:14.720 I think he blows up another

00:55:15.900 building here he but but

00:55:17.560 yes what you say is very

00:55:19.680 true I forgot about that he

00:55:20.880 he does build a kind of

00:55:22.020 secular cathedral for man

00:55:24.000 that's right and it's

00:55:24.960 turned into a time just

00:55:26.380 quasi-religious writer oh

00:55:28.020 with the ardor of her

00:55:29.560 romanticism yeah the ardor of

00:55:31.680 the great man she just

00:55:33.700 transmutes the great man into

00:55:35.020 other areas right because I

00:55:36.620 think the subtext to Rand is

00:55:37.960 that Rand's essentially an

00:55:38.920 artistic person if you look at

00:55:41.420 most of her books that

00:55:42.520 actually made her name they're

00:55:44.420 not the object of this

00:55:45.680 philosophizing which you know

00:55:48.820 many academic philosophers

00:55:50.100 regard as a pretty run do

00:55:51.720 anyway and they're not the

00:55:54.680 polemicisms of the later

00:55:56.780 years and they're not the

00:55:58.760 cult that was created around

00:56:00.200 her either and that sort of

00:56:01.540 thing which still does survive

00:56:03.520 in an attenuated and

00:56:04.700 cultural form yes and at times

00:56:06.720 he's used by her detractors to

00:56:08.020 make her look ridiculous the

00:56:09.800 core of her is these artistic

00:56:11.400 books the anti-soviet book we

00:56:13.420 the living the libertarian

00:56:15.620 poem to heroic individualist

00:56:18.120 freedom anthem the poem about

00:56:21.680 the artist is almost a

00:56:23.260 supernatural creator the

00:56:25.060 fountainhead where the artist

00:56:26.980 is seen as a heroic figure the

00:56:29.240 artist is a dictator yeah the

00:56:31.900 artist is a sort of um abraham

00:56:35.400 lincoln crossed with shakespeare

00:56:37.060 crossed with sad and the same

00:56:38.400 cross with the man who walked on

00:56:40.100 the moon that's what harrod

00:56:42.180 rourke is and they're

00:56:45.120 considered to be supermen

00:56:47.180 because of course she's very

00:56:48.320 influenced by nietzsche and she

00:56:50.340 wants to heroicize that's why

00:56:53.020 her novels are looked down on by

00:56:55.320 the literary and cultural

00:56:56.360 establishment because they're

00:56:57.980 considered to be comic books

00:56:59.200 they're considered to be

00:57:00.240 ridiculous idealistic fantasies of

00:57:04.180 heroic romantic men and women who

00:57:06.060 can't possibly exist in the real

00:57:07.520 world and therefore they're not

00:57:09.140 real and unnatural and although

00:57:11.360 people will take the money

00:57:12.520 because of the enormous sales of

00:57:14.080 these volumes there's quite a lot

00:57:15.780 of resentment about rand a lot of

00:57:18.000 british publishers wouldn't uh

00:57:19.620 bring her across the atlanta for

00:57:21.020 quite a long time although she's in

00:57:22.840 penguin classics now um but that

00:57:26.600 didn't happen until the cold war

00:57:28.060 had ended i noticed uh you had to

00:57:30.420 import rand from american

00:57:32.060 editions or hardback from

00:57:34.940 conservative publishers in britain

00:57:36.640 like cassel and so on who used to

00:57:38.700 do the fountainhead and we the

00:57:39.920 living and atlas shrugged so she's

00:57:43.180 um essentially a 19th century

00:57:46.920 romantic figure a byronic heroic

00:57:49.580 romanticist who believes that the

00:57:52.360 architect and the artist and the

00:57:54.600 entrepreneur and the businessman and

00:57:56.780 the private sector scientist can be on

00:57:59.900 a level of the great statesmen and the

00:58:01.660 great military warriors and the great

00:58:03.840 religious leaders of the past that's

00:58:06.560 her viewpoint really and it's because

00:58:09.040 her views are heroic that they

00:58:11.380 chime with the instincts and the

00:58:13.600 romantic idealism of lots of people

00:58:15.820 libertarianism is very very dry and

00:58:19.080 yet rand is essentially its symphony

00:58:21.720 rand is its sort of um glowing musical

00:58:25.960 overture to the rather dry as dust

00:58:28.940 bare bone stuff that you get with

00:58:31.740 mesey and hayek and some of the others

00:58:34.100 um or milton treatment for example

00:58:36.780 rand is the poetry of it and that's

00:58:40.980 what intoxicates people and draws them

00:58:43.400 into it and there's also quite a lot of

00:58:45.500 truth in her books actually about the

00:58:47.380 way the world works and about certain

00:58:49.220 psychological realities and how people

00:58:51.960 are prone to failure and success yes um

00:58:55.020 but yes the reason that libertarians and

00:58:58.520 have a vibe around it and have a currency

00:59:01.300 of appeal it's really down to her it's

00:59:04.720 down to her crossover it's that all the

00:59:07.240 libertarians have fantasies that are

00:59:08.940 based on her they're sort of um these

00:59:12.520 non-martial martial fantasies of the great

00:59:16.060 artist the great lawyer the great never the

00:59:18.900 great leader but it's the great doer as

00:59:21.640 great leader of a leader monquet a leader

00:59:25.080 in their own life um and this sort of

00:59:28.960 romantic individualism uh which is in

00:59:32.040 part the philosophy of 19th century late

00:59:34.040 american capitalism and the doctrine of

00:59:36.180 the titan at the end of capitalism's great

00:59:39.300 cycle before the state became manifoldly

00:59:42.100 involved in the economy in the 20th century

00:59:44.060 as much in the american economy as any

00:59:46.200 other economy although the fiction is it was

00:59:48.160 didn't do that as much as in europe but

00:59:50.960 socialized medicine aside the american

00:59:53.820 mechanism is almost identical in europe in

00:59:56.680 america this is one of the great iron is

00:59:58.340 about all the divisions between the two so

01:00:00.120 called models two models are the same

01:00:02.380 they've just got different dynamics that's

01:00:04.600 all and these titans the rockefellas and

01:00:08.560 they create those who created these enormous

01:00:10.680 steel and rail confederations in 19th century

01:00:13.760 america about him a left-wing novelist like

01:00:16.100 theodore dreiser used to expatiate at the

01:00:18.960 beginning of the 20th century these people

01:00:21.800 of course tended to oligopoly and even

01:00:24.200 semi-monopoly because advanced rambunctuous

01:00:27.480 uncontrolled 19th century capitalism does

01:00:30.960 tend to oligopoly contrary to what the

01:00:33.440 libertarians say that's why you have to

01:00:35.780 have antitrust legislation to break it up

01:00:38.020 and to reformulate more of a market so

01:00:41.060 she's there's many paradoxes involved in

01:00:43.480 her thinking but she worships these capitalist

01:00:46.260 titan figures when they themselves are

01:00:49.240 really capitalistic dictators wrenching the

01:00:52.400 market out of its true focus but that's

01:00:55.100 because her interest isn't really in the

01:00:56.660 market at all it's in these romantic

01:00:59.020 figures that are artistically designated

01:01:02.400 previous eras would have chosen saints and

01:01:05.760 warriors and military leaders and dynastic

01:01:09.040 political leaders she invests businessmen and

01:01:12.780 private sector scientists and above all

01:01:14.940 artists with the same sort of cachet that's

01:01:18.560 why her work is popular

01:01:19.780 well jonathan thank you for being back on

01:01:23.240 the podcast i hope to have you back on

01:01:25.640 again soon

01:01:26.160 thanks very much pleased to be here bye for

01:01:29.660 now

01:01:29.920 you

01:01:44.600 you

01:01:44.740 you

01:01:46.500 you

01:01:51.780 you

01:01:56.480 Thank you.

RadixJournal - January 12, 2018

Bowden! - 4 - Creative Destruction

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