RadixJournal - Conservatism, Cancel Culture, and the Caducean

00:00:00.000 you know in the dr of course there's many factors involved including the de-platforming

00:00:10.140 we've been sort of fragmented you know much less people are going to be listening to this podcast

00:00:14.880 than they would be at sort of the height of the dr right so yeah your audience for example uh my

00:00:21.380 audience um is a much more is a smaller uh but is a much more uh on the good side i'd say is a much

00:00:28.540 more kind of dedicated and committed sort of ideologically dedicated and committed group

00:00:32.960 um so they're more serious in a way right and and they're either um just getting noise more signal

00:00:40.280 yeah yeah and they're either just getting here and if they're just getting here they're getting

00:00:45.700 here through a kind of more circuitous route like it was harder to find us than it would have been

00:00:50.480 before right yeah so so they're seekers in that way right um or they're people that have abided that

00:00:57.540 have been our fans for a longer period of time and you know have you know in in you know you and i

00:01:05.680 we've uh been developing ideas the whole time um and i think that some people are interested in just

00:01:12.240 in seeing where we're these ideas are going and and because they i think that the ideas are starting

00:01:17.620 now to crystallize in a lot of ways um there's a lot less noise because we've kind of um

00:01:23.960 the whole trump thing is kind of dying down now and you know i and i think that part of

00:01:31.780 in the dr you can kind of you you perceive a sort of demoralization based on the fact that the trump

00:01:38.820 thing like trump didn't just sweep into the off sweep into office and basically solve all our problems

00:01:43.940 which on some level whether you know and i think that we're all kind of uh a victim to it on some level

00:01:50.620 or the other but whether that wasn't you know i don't think very few people had that sort of

00:01:56.480 explicit expectation but i think that there was a kind of subconscious and in some cases explicit hope

00:02:03.620 that he would basically do exactly that he would sort of kind of write the ship as it were um but also

00:02:11.120 just kind of create a new world for us right that he would sort of single-handedly and you could argue

00:02:17.920 that maybe he had an opportunity to do exactly that if he had the vision and will and that's if

00:02:23.620 that's what he wanted to actually do um maybe he did but now it doesn't really matter whether he could

00:02:29.960 have or could not have done it he didn't do it so whether he was able to or he wasn't it's a kind

00:02:35.100 of moot point it's more it's more like well okay um that's over and and a lot of the uh i think a lot

00:02:44.800 of the fairweather fans have disappeared as well um from the dr um you know again there's been a lot

00:02:51.560 of fragmentation as well um and i also i think that too that like a lot of the people because you

00:02:57.700 you uh richard were essentially the center of the movement i mean i think that's pretty clear but

00:03:02.500 there were a lot of people who were kind of like you know your sort of allies or even if they and even

00:03:09.160 if they were kind of rivals to you or whatever we were all kind of part of the dr you know uh and it

00:03:15.740 was kind of this it was a movement that had many faces and different voices and different people um

00:03:22.000 in you know and ostensibly a lot of those people were like well you know this thing didn't work and

00:03:29.480 we're going to go off in our own direction um but i think a lot of it is they basically got demoralized

00:03:36.580 right so it's not i think they got demoralized what i've seen is people repeating mistakes like

00:03:45.040 it's it's one thing to recognize something that didn't work but it's another thing to actually

00:03:52.360 learn something and go off in a different path and i feel like the quote lessons learned

00:04:00.560 end quote of 2016 and 2017 have been like you know oh you know we were in fourth year but we

00:04:09.660 should have been in third gear on that like the third turn coming around the bend you know or you

00:04:16.180 know like well you know we we actually you know we we use blue as our as our theme color but actually

00:04:23.240 it should have been a kind of purplish blue and not not the sky blue that you got you know it's like

00:04:29.360 these little tweaks that they do but they're really just reinforcing rehearsing all of the things that

00:04:37.160 failed and i think it's like the easiest thing in the world is to say i screwed up but i've learned

00:04:42.500 my lesson you know we will all say that whenever we screw up but you know it's it's another thing to

00:04:47.800 actually learn your lesson and do something fundamentally different and kind of recognize your

00:04:54.860 own failure and that is really hard and i i would say that i i do think that there's a lot of

00:05:01.680 demoralization and people are scattered and going off and whatever um but i i think one thing that i do

00:05:08.840 see is this rehearsal of 2017 writ small by multiple people who think that they can do it right

00:05:19.180 and it it's harder to kind of recognize that it could not have been done right you know in the sense

00:05:28.440 of it we actually were on a wrong track i mean like i don't have regrets and i don't i think it almost had

00:05:37.020 to happen the way it did and and it it was what it was but you know it's we need to recognize that we

00:05:44.740 need to take like a different path this time and that you can't just tweak some little thing

00:05:51.840 that and rehearse it after the fact and think that you're going to end up anywhere than where the you

00:06:01.420 know broad alt-right ended up um so that that's basically my you know take from it it's like there

00:06:09.300 sure sure sure there are a lot of little things that need to be tweaked and you know and that that's

00:06:15.360 all fine and good but the the main thing is to recognize like the deeper failure and why it failed

00:06:23.780 and that's actually really hard and you have to be self-critical but but you also have to be analytic

00:06:29.940 like you have to really understand the problem and i i do feel like the alt-right you know persist

00:06:39.820 but i mean you can call it the dr it's just it's the alt-right it's the same people you know it's

00:06:45.100 they they they have a new name or whatever but it just is you know it doesn't matter but they're

00:06:52.040 you know again they're they are just going through the same playbook and using the same plays

00:06:57.320 and expecting it to work this time because you know oh we we you know we tweak we we recalibrated

00:07:04.420 this three millimeters here and two and a half millimeters there but it it doesn't matter at some

00:07:11.060 level you know there are so many movements that have tremendous failures like tactical failures uh or

00:07:20.380 you know missteps or whatever uh and they succeeded and they succeeded for reasons and it's it's that i

00:07:32.000 think is the challenge is like we cannot just rehearse everything that went wrong and

00:07:38.880 that is what i see and and i think that kind of gets to a deeper problem that we're going to discuss

00:07:48.040 which is the the nature of of the caduceon

00:07:52.040 i thought a good jumping off point would be cancel culture and this

00:08:21.760 this this kind of thing was mentioned a number of years ago and it might very well

00:08:27.980 have originated or at least the critique of it kind of originated on the alt-right

00:08:33.520 like a lot of things um there are many people usually on the left who will actively say you know

00:08:43.120 it's time to cancel this uh you know athlete or uh or author who you know a musician who used the n-word

00:09:02.640 there was actually a basketball player just yesterday i believe who used the k-word uh the dreaded k-word

00:09:10.740 while playing a video game you know and uh so it's time to cancel him uh and this this the critique of

00:09:21.440 that or the reaction to it has gone mainstream to a point that uh you know just this past week there

00:09:29.560 are studies done and you know 80 of fox news is basically talking about dr seuss or gina carano

00:09:37.580 cancel culture writ large and um you know i agree with the basic notion of this critique the gist of it

00:09:51.960 in the sense that look you know people make mistakes people get emotional people misspeak or

00:10:02.400 they you know are not as polite as they could be and this idea of just removing someone from society

00:10:12.180 because of some issue or or particularly when it's something that is defensible um is just you know it

00:10:21.700 amounts to a kind of witch hunt and it it amounts to a a kind of post religiosity that's emerged in our

00:10:29.060 secular world where we want to burn this person at the stake for heresy um and it is you know inhumane

00:10:38.900 unfair and so on i agree with that on some basic level but you didn't come to this podcast you to

00:10:47.520 your listener didn't come to this podcast to hear that because you can get that everywhere you can get

00:10:53.840 that at fox nation or national review um i i think we need to kind of go deeper and better understand

00:11:03.400 this general phenomenon i think it's good just to look at the phenomenon like you know just just on

00:11:10.920 its superficial level um you know it does i mean i think there there are a couple of things that are

00:11:18.740 at play with with cancel culture um the first is that we are enveloped by media and everyone to some

00:11:31.340 degree is living their life online and digital lives leave tracks so to speak um you know whereas if

00:11:43.220 gina carano you know 30 years ago had opined about the holocaust or something and at a bar or coffee

00:11:54.920 shop um there wouldn't have been any definite record maybe someone would have reported it but it could

00:12:00.560 be dismissed as rumor uh but in the age of the internet there is this hard record indelible record

00:12:07.880 of statements and it it certainly this is the kind of fodder that's used for it now this is not the

00:12:15.680 primary dynamic but it is certainly like a background element that's indispensable um the other

00:12:23.780 background element to this is polarization and you know we we talk a lot about oh america's fragmenting

00:12:33.840 or or so on well okay that is true but the broad trend is actually left right polarization so it's not

00:12:43.620 even necessarily breaking down by race or ethnicity or region or neighborhood uh it is actually breaking

00:12:51.400 down on a left right bias and you know i take all polls with a grain of salt obviously you know how the

00:13:00.280 question is worded is important obviously some people will tell a pollster one thing and believe

00:13:05.180 another and our act in another way granted uh but polls are significant if you take them for what they

00:13:12.680 are and according to polls the left right polarization is actually stronger than race at least as it's

00:13:22.400 reported to pollsters so people conservatives will say things like you know although they'll be asked

00:13:28.980 rather you know would you worry if your daughter married an african-american and you know five to ten

00:13:36.980 percent will say well you know i don't really like that is this an anonymous poll probably the next

00:13:43.720 question they ask uh but large percentages percentages will say i worry about my daughter marrying a

00:13:52.060 democrat or a liberal and so not that race is an unimportant factor or that race doesn't kind of

00:13:59.960 undergird polarization but race at least as these things are reported is is eclipsed by this hot

00:14:10.340 polarization i mean the parties are splitting and again one of the weird things about this is that

00:14:17.700 not a lot gets done in terms of actual policy but we're hotter than ever about these culture war

00:14:27.620 disputes and and minute differences and the you know throughout the 20th century there's a lot of

00:14:33.360 churn within the parties basically if you said you know i'm from michigan and you know i voted for

00:14:40.180 nixon what does that really mean you might very well have voted for democrats most of your life you

00:14:45.980 might policy wise be more on board of the democratic party there's a lot of wash you could say or churn

00:14:52.640 in terms of voting that is now gone where party identification is an identity and this is also a very

00:15:03.260 very important indispensable background element uh to cancel culture uh another element is this kind

00:15:13.160 of weird decline of religion of religion in general i mean religion is collapsing i mean i'm thinking

00:15:21.180 mostly of christianity here but religion is collapsing institutionally and it's collapsing really intensely

00:15:27.660 among younger people as well um and yet there there do seem to be these kind of religious instincts you

00:15:36.400 could say or tendencies that will start to spill out in other ways so i'm not the first one to say this but

00:15:43.940 you know whereas you know misinterpreting scripture or you know being a protestant in a catholic land or vice

00:15:51.320 versa could have gotten you burned at the stake at one period now it's nothing you know i mean you can

00:15:59.600 be in a predominantly protestant state and say oh yeah i'm i'm a catholic in fact no one's going to

00:16:05.520 really care you can actually say i'm an atheist and i don't think you're likely to be fired uh due to

00:16:13.440 that uh i think you'll probably be tolerated those kind of those religious or doctrinal disputes have

00:16:19.740 dissipated and they've been replaced by intense culture war disputes and so you know if you are

00:16:30.140 at a major corporation and you say you know oh by the way i'm actually a protestant no one's going to

00:16:36.840 look twice um if you say uh something you know uncouth about the holocaust or you someone has a recording

00:16:47.080 of you dropping an n-bomb you are fired immediately no questions asked you probably won't be rehired

00:16:55.740 anyway as well you are canceled like and perhaps canceled permanently and this whereas that holds

00:17:03.520 you know in law firms and corporations etc uh it holds a thousand times like that in the media

00:17:10.600 and hollywood uh and these these kind of you know the the propaganda organs of contemporary society

00:17:19.200 and so we're we're in this kind of we're in in academia as well um which again is just a kind

00:17:25.660 of media producing you know organ it's about it's about ideas and theology and morality and up and down

00:17:34.720 right and left right and wrong uh there these things are taken extremely intensely and so there's this

00:17:41.300 we're this kind of weird situation where we are ostensibly and measurably a less religious society

00:17:51.080 atheism is growing the unchurched are growing uh institutions of the old religion are slowly dying

00:18:02.200 maybe in some cases precipitously dying but that religiosity has needs some place to go it seems

00:18:11.340 to be a kind of human trait in fact that expressed itself through religion in previous ages and is now

00:18:19.580 expressing itself through ideology or politics and so you know i'm not the first one to point this out

00:18:26.280 and it's that you know like getting rid of gina carano that was a religious like act she was burned

00:18:36.360 at the stake and so on so i i think these are kind of the backgrounds of cancel culture uh do you have

00:18:43.980 anything to add to that or uh i think we can go a little bit deeper on that but go ahead sure well uh

00:18:51.060 no i don't really have much to add to it i mean i think that you uh you laid it up uh pretty uh clearly

00:18:56.620 um i don't have anything necessarily to disagree with either um but yeah i mean i think it's part of

00:19:02.240 we we started to um talk about this a little bit with ed as well as that it's it's part of a kind of

00:19:07.940 hive or collective mentality right so it's not um people are conforming it but just in a different

00:19:14.740 direction so rather than um people becoming atomized per se um even though people do feel

00:19:21.380 alienated and uh there is i guess there is a kind of type of alien uh atomization happening

00:19:27.120 in the sense that uh people are no longer connecting with their neighbors in the same way

00:19:31.580 and there there is a kind of a general estrangement it seems yet at the same time there is a kind of

00:19:36.480 conformity of thought um where people are kind of going in the same and i think it's a it's kind of

00:19:42.820 in a depressive direction as well so people are um becoming more withdrawn but they're all conforming

00:19:49.420 sort of in this direction so we're all kind of going in a bad direction as it were in a kind of

00:19:54.940 bad degenerate direction um and yeah you know there are a number of factors for that and chief among them

00:20:01.920 go ahead well chief among them is this sort of new religion um as you describe it that is a little

00:20:10.360 less sort of clearly articulated or defined but it is generally a kind of it is generally multiculturalism

00:20:17.620 but it's this the organs of it are uh the media right um yeah and and also the media but also the

00:20:27.480 the other organs are people who have basically been um brainwashed or um indoctrinated by this media and

00:20:35.620 they uh function as sort of the enforcers of these kind of new values or morals um or this kind of

00:20:43.060 new ethos that inhabits the society um anyway so what were you going to say that yeah well i i think

00:20:48.940 it's it's it's interesting that we're atomizing in a in a lot of the ways of traditional community

00:20:57.640 of the past i mean this is the the bowling alone you know scenario of um people are not joining

00:21:05.140 you know clubs in their towns they don't know their neighbors they're they're not going to church

00:21:11.620 to a greater degree etc uh but they're you know they're intensely getting organized online

00:21:20.080 and i think this you know through the nature of the digital medium the fact that it's infinitely

00:21:26.460 reproducible that it you know some random person can tweet out something and for whatever reason

00:21:35.180 you no one knows quite the algorithm it takes off and it gets you know 10 000 retweets for some weird

00:21:42.320 reason and so there's this weird way that like we've we've dropped the real world we've we've created

00:21:48.760 community in cyberspace and this makes things all the more intense and accelerates them uh so that

00:21:56.440 things that might have taken months or years in the past happened in hours and um you know all of

00:22:03.840 these examples like the the the speed at which the dr seuss thing took off now i mean i think we could

00:22:11.300 even kind of like go into some of these things because i think it gets us to the nature of the

00:22:17.260 caducean but um you know all the dr seuss i mean he was he was taken off a uh a like presidential

00:22:30.480 you know reading day list or something like that um due to the fact that quite accurately uh he drew

00:22:40.340 uh anti- japanese anti-asian cartoons in his past he was making literal war propaganda for the united

00:22:48.980 states in its efforts against japan uh but and you know the other thing that you can also find kind of

00:22:57.240 curious examples of him depicting africans with bones their noses and all this kind of thing that

00:23:02.920 you can also find in disney films and and so on it was just part of the milieu of that time um dr seuss

00:23:13.160 was also a kind of preachy liberal and uh was also depicting america first advocates as you know

00:23:24.080 literally in bed with the nazis and his cartoons and so on i mean he he was a propagandist of this

00:23:33.980 particular time and there's this funny way that conservatives go about defending all of these

00:23:41.420 people who are who are expressing kind of earlier myths that were ultimately undermining what they

00:23:48.240 believe in and and i think this is you know a kind of a way to think of it i i remember when um i would

00:23:55.980 you know talk with paul godfried the you know he's a retired professor and uh an interesting historian of

00:24:04.220 the conservative movement and um and intellectual history and uh and a good guy and he would he was

00:24:12.040 always complaining he was like ah the the the right though they're they're just the left 20 years too

00:24:18.160 late or something like that but i and i of course agree with that but i think there's also this kind of

00:24:23.540 deeper element to it where the right is constantly putting forth the left's myths that undermined the

00:24:33.120 right of a previous age and presenting them as conservative and dr seuss is an obvious example of this i mean

00:24:40.240 yes dr seuss might have written racist cartoons or whatever but dr seuss was integral um in his

00:24:48.500 cartoon in in cartoons and establishing liberal hegemony throughout the 20th century um gina carano's

00:24:57.620 evocation of the holocaust is also very interesting because she was you know absolutely thrown under the

00:25:07.840 bus by disney now she had tweeted out some kind of mild pro-trump stuff um at it a few times in her

00:25:17.000 accounts but it really was it seemed to be at least this uh tweet about the holocaust that kind of

00:25:24.740 threw things um over the edge and she might have been on her way out anyway but this is what did it let

00:25:32.340 me actually just read what she wrote this is what she said she said um uh jews were beaten in the

00:25:39.780 streets not by nazi soldiers but by their neighbors even by children because history is edited most

00:25:47.820 people today don't realize that to get to the point where nazi soldiers could easily round up thousands

00:25:53.540 of jews the government first made their own neighbors hate them simply for being jews how is that any

00:26:00.460 different from hating someone for their political views question mark so what she's doing there is

00:26:09.420 basically trying to appeal to jews in many ways she is not she's not denying the holocaust or saying

00:26:18.880 the holocaust was good or anything like that uh by by new stretch of the imagination um she's basically

00:26:26.780 affirming affirming the holocaust as a moral paradigm and then applying it to uh you know the treatment

00:26:37.020 of conservatives who who can't get a break in hollywood and so on which is undeniably true um and

00:26:44.160 so she's basically saying that um the government made you know we don't know this because we don't know

00:26:50.780 the true history of the holocaust which is kind of a weird thing to say there actually are polls

00:26:56.980 showing that people are less and less informed about the holocaust however uh the holocaust is like

00:27:03.800 the center of education in america i mean it is you learn about i don't know world war ii the founding

00:27:11.980 fathers of the holocaust that's what you are taught in history class in um you know as a as an american

00:27:20.240 teenager and the rest of world history is kind of you know i don't know just in dusty books or something

00:27:25.820 so it is kind of odd like the holocaust is being suppressed or something uh but she's basically

00:27:31.920 trying to evoke the holocaust to say that oh the conservatives are like jews uh and so on they're

00:27:38.560 they're being treated horribly by the government and that might lead to genocide now this is of course

00:27:43.500 overwrought but that is what she's trying to do and i think it it kind of reveals something about

00:27:51.280 the the function of the holocaust in academia in the sense that it is unique you cannot compare it

00:28:01.720 to anything even other genocides even other genocides that might have killed more people

00:28:06.700 um and that it is about the jews it's not just some bad thing that happened like the fire of chicago or

00:28:16.320 something um that you could compare you know though this is like you know my apartment's so messy it's

00:28:22.740 like the chicago fire on here or something something like that uh no it has to be a unique and sacred

00:28:30.160 thing that is solely based on the promotion of the interest of jews and you know gina is trying to

00:28:41.160 appeal to hollywood people a lot of many of them most of them maybe are jews so she is not really

00:28:48.560 trying to undermine the myth but she just doesn't get it she's kind of she doesn't know how to speak

00:28:56.120 the language properly she's not cued in in the way she's oblivious she's she's a bit of a doofus

00:29:02.640 for doing this and it certainly was you know at least from a career standpoint not worth it but i i

00:29:10.740 think the main thing is that she's not questioning whether the holocaust should be you know of preeminent

00:29:19.600 importance in our moral landscape she's not questioning that at all she's she's actually

00:29:25.380 reaffirming it but she's not reaffirming it in the right way and so you you get to this almost

00:29:33.220 like false dynamic where conservatives are claiming you know the right is claiming we should

00:29:41.120 be able to compare ourselves to holocaust victims and the left is claiming no you'll never claim

00:29:45.960 compare yourself to holocaust victims but the ultimate status of the holocaust is never a question

00:29:53.840 and um just for the record here uh we are not engaging in any kind of revision of history or

00:30:03.840 the numbers or nor are we claiming something that's obviously untrue like that there wasn't immense

00:30:11.140 suffering involved um we are speaking about the holocaust as not as history but as a kind of myth that

00:30:19.960 is as it functions as a a mythos for jewish people and how it functions as the worst thing that ever

00:30:29.760 happened in history this you know you know immense crime that is incomparable to anything else um and

00:30:37.180 that can ultimately justify a number of things in the real world world politically uh that's what we're

00:30:42.580 talking about but that issue is not touched upon that remains in this you know moral center um but

00:30:52.320 instead we're kind of arguing about you know who gets to use it or what it can be compared to and so

00:31:00.440 it's this way where the opposition is no opposition at all the the supposed you know conservatives are

00:31:08.520 rallying around gina carano she's become more popular than she ever was uh when she first got the

00:31:14.140 role you had all these right-wing star wars fans on youtube and there are a lot of those who are like

00:31:21.520 ah look here's another token woman in the star wars universe they're like look at this girl she's a new

00:31:27.700 mary sue or you know oh look she's a thick woman you know they're you know they they did not like her

00:31:34.400 after she got canceled by hollywood she became more popular than she ever was or could have been

00:31:43.120 and she's now making conservative films with ben shapiro literally and so there's this kind of weird

00:31:50.140 way where this this polarization kind of creates this like new intense popularity i mean you can see this

00:31:58.280 as something like the nra of you know the nra is attacked by liberals therefore i need to donate

00:32:03.980 money to it well why are you donating money to it what are you really getting out of it is this

00:32:08.340 actually solving any problems that you care about no but liberals hate it i mean it's a very similar

00:32:13.340 thing to trump and and so on and gina carano has kind of benefited from this cancellation in some way

00:32:19.340 now i i imagine you know on some level i she wished she had not done this and it probably would

00:32:26.060 have been better for her career to remain in the star wars show um but nevertheless she has become

00:32:32.860 a conservative icon within this you know hyper polarized caducean realm yeah you know it's it is

00:32:43.520 interesting though that like one of the things or one dimension of it i think too uh to which jews

00:32:49.960 became sensitive is that you know the jewish identity really is on a final level and this is a sort of

00:32:56.860 imitable imitable imitable aspect of uh judaism is that it is a it is ultimately a kind of a religio-political

00:33:04.580 identity right and so she was talking about politics and they were like well no you can't compare like

00:33:11.380 our religion or ethnicity to a political identity uh but ultimately judaism does have a religio-political

00:33:20.720 identity right and that religio-political identity is and now there are different approaches to kind of

00:33:26.400 achieving the ends of um judaism but judaism understands itself as operating in the cosmos

00:33:32.560 in the real world with real world objectives in you know securing the safety of jews as a people

00:33:39.800 and in which ultimately means the power of jews right so those two things are ultimately synonyms

00:33:46.180 if you have security as a people you also have power as a people right so they're interested

00:33:50.860 in a kind of collective will to power that's a religious um prerogative as well as a political

00:33:58.100 prerogative because it's you know it's a real world thing it's yeah so it's it's ultimately their

00:34:04.340 identity is uh a religio-political or and so in so they they become sensitive to the idea of a sort of

00:34:15.020 religio-political development or uh you know or another identity developing along uh religio-political

00:34:22.820 lines which you know which you know is not really happening in this case but it she's she's comparing

00:34:31.020 a political identity to what they consider a sacred identity but which is also ultimately political

00:34:36.540 identity um if they just don't want a political competitor they don't want a competitor in the

00:34:41.780 cosmos in the real world you know seeking uh power that they would otherwise have right so yeah so that

00:34:49.360 formulation becomes threatening to them um yeah and i'll just point this out real quick and then i'll let

00:34:55.100 you go um i i mentioned before the the the incomparable quality of the holocaust and you actually

00:35:03.100 see this in academia where there's been a you know explosion of of holocaust studies

00:35:10.920 studies and you know the german studies departments have kind of turned into jewish studies departments

00:35:16.600 i remember when i was at university of chicago um a jewish professor told me this in fact um but

00:35:24.360 it you know there's been this explosion of it and there's also been explosion of kind of like

00:35:30.760 genocide studies where people will you know look at issues like the uh you know the the pol pot and

00:35:37.800 stalin and um the rwandan genocide and so on and uh the the genocide of the armenians and turkey

00:35:45.000 etc and they'll naturally as historians or want to do compare and contrast them with uh the you know

00:35:54.040 persecution of jews under hitler and nazi germany and the you know you you run up against this third

00:36:00.920 or you touch on this third rail when you do that because you know it's like well we're all for

00:36:07.640 history here but you know not about this like this is sacred this is unique you cannot compare it and

00:36:15.880 there are many instances of you know thoughtful philosophical jewish uh you know theorists and

00:36:25.240 philosophers basically saying that there is no comparison this is it this is the worst this is

00:36:33.640 the negative moral center of our universe and um you know other people kind of can't get in on this game

00:36:41.480 and it is an interesting third rail where you know on on one hand there's been a kind of like

00:36:47.640 judification of of of a lot of other groups where it's like well you know this is our holocaust this

00:36:57.240 was our you know terrible event that is part of our lacrimose history or whatever um but that can only

00:37:04.360 go so so far because you know only the jews can be jews as it were yeah no i mean i think that that's

00:37:11.000 very well established and evident that that that is something that that is an event that um nothing

00:37:17.080 can be compared to um but what i would say and you know it it obviously is a kind of a banner and a

00:37:25.320 rallying um it's a rallying point for jews as a you know a religio-political group effectively but

00:37:34.600 what i what i would say though um yeah i mean that shapiro basically came to her side and he uh he

00:37:42.200 rallied to her side which was which in a way was kind of remarkable but it in a way it was not in a

00:37:48.280 way we maybe we could have anticipated something like this developing ultimately but it does show

00:37:54.280 that sort of the two caducean serpents as it were or the two sides um are more polarized now in the sense

00:38:01.320 that i don't know that like five or six years ago shapiro would have would have come uh you know

00:38:07.000 running to the aid of gina in that environment when when things were ultimately less uh politically

00:38:14.280 polarized right so in other words um i think that there is a kind of and i think that jews in general

00:38:20.600 are much better at this than than we are um but they they have a good antenna for how things are

00:38:27.160 developing in the society and how um attitudes are changing and and manners are changing effectively

00:38:34.920 and so they're more sensitive to and it makes sense kind of from an evolutionary perspective is

00:38:41.160 they're more sensitive to these sort of societal changes and when you know potentially danger is

00:38:47.560 starting to appear for example or threats to their power might actually be a better way of articulating

00:38:52.680 it right um so they um and this i think would be an example i think that shapiro we're seeing a kind

00:39:00.440 of polarization so the serpents are moving apart as it were and um and so it becomes necessary for

00:39:06.840 shapiro to to or something like this to develop or it becomes possible would be another way of looking at

00:39:12.520 it for shapiro to be like oh okay well i'm gonna rally to her side because yeah i think that the the pc

00:39:18.680 police have gone too far this time but you know inside and you know maybe it's not even a kind of

00:39:24.360 you know probably it's not even necessarily or maybe it is a conscious thing but he um that instinct

00:39:31.000 arises from like well conditions have changed now and we have to can't we can't be you know we we we need

00:39:38.840 to keep our allies and we need to keep our allies among sort of politically and culturally powerful people

00:39:44.840 and gina may not be that i mean she's not that significant a public figure but if people you

00:39:50.440 know he he can sort of like read the room as it were and say okay well actually people online

00:39:57.640 like her and we want to kind of keep her on the plantation as it were so he did he actually

00:40:05.560 you understand what i'm saying though right so there is a kind of tactical aspect to this right

00:40:10.280 unquestionably and i think it's it's i was i was simply adding to it i think it's interesting what

00:40:14.200 he did because uh he he came out and said something that was you know totally reasonable obviously like

00:40:21.400 there's so much hysteria in the room that you know ben shapiro could seem reasonable but um he basically

00:40:28.440 said like uh you should not do this and i mean he did say that like you should not make holocaust

00:40:33.880 comparisons and i disagree and this is wrong but this is certainly not a firing offense and she was like

00:40:41.320 you know good-natured well-intentioned but misguided and so on so he kind of got got a little bit of a

00:40:49.160 dig in you could say but then has ultimately you know embraced her and i and i think a lot of that

00:40:55.480 is in any another kind of instinct to control the momentum where it's like okay you know the

00:41:04.440 you know this flood is coming like what do we want to do do we want to run from it do we want to

00:41:09.240 yell at it do we want to try to damn it up or do we want to kind of channel it in this way that it

00:41:14.760 misses the village you know and that is you know that's one tactic and it might be the smart one

00:41:22.040 uh but you know someone like shapiro reads the room and understands all of this energy and kind of

00:41:28.920 pent-up frustration and angst even racial angst that's kind of under the surface of this kind of

00:41:36.040 stuff and he wants to be the one who's the captain of the ship directing it and it is very he is very

00:41:43.800 effective and he is very smart um he's he's not he's certainly not one of the you know top guys on this

00:41:52.520 matter he's kind of like you know doing the the you know he's but he's doing a duty like he's he's not the

00:42:01.400 he's not the the the nfl football coach he's kind of like the junior varsity squad

00:42:09.560 but he'll run the jv squad and run it well and make sure that they're running the right plays

00:42:16.200 if you catch my drift yeah yeah no i mean we had like he's in some ways uh he's got like sort of the

00:42:22.520 the the shit detail as it were like the jews that are sort of kind of assigned to the right right uh what

00:42:29.320 the rebel media guy might be the the sort of most classic example but they yeah they uh they tend to

00:42:34.680 be more of the kind of uh more sort of obviously sort of deceptive types or the kind of car salesman

00:42:41.160 the like type you know like the lower right jews right uh you know i mean that that maybe that's

00:42:47.560 meant as a compliment to the leftist jews right so like the no the leftist no the more noble class of

00:42:54.280 jews as it were and well they're at harvard writing you know books on linguistics or they're

00:43:01.400 making star wars you know i mean and and it's like ben shapiro is making some you know b direct

00:43:09.720 video drama starring gina carano who although i do like her she seems like a nice well that i yeah i mean

00:43:17.480 she's kind of a terrible actress well that that's i mean just saying well that's actually showing a

00:43:22.920 shocking amount of like sort of cultural sophistication uh for the right i mean i like

00:43:28.600 a guy on the right making a film it's like almost unheard of right i'm saying i mean why would you

00:43:34.920 want to make a film it's just stupid it doesn't have any effect but um just run a small business

00:43:41.320 yeah exactly but um yeah so but what i would say though is um i was getting to another point let

00:43:50.040 let me try and remember it but um i may have forgot it that train may have left the station

00:43:54.440 as it were that train of thought i'll stop interrupting you it's i take responsibility for

00:43:59.080 this um so it'll come back to me though but yeah it'll come back yeah it will come back to us

00:44:04.360 throughout the conversation but um so i mean i i think i i told this joke to you when we were talking

00:44:11.800 about doing this so when i was a kid in dallas texas i would go to dairy queen and there were

00:44:20.120 two options on ice cream or frozen yogurt or whatever the hell it was we were actually eating

00:44:26.840 who knows uh there was chocolate and vanilla but then there's another option which was swirl

00:44:32.200 and so they would just basically pull down both levers and give you chocolate and vanilla

00:44:37.560 and i i mean this is a little funny thing for my childhood obviously and probably most of your

00:44:44.360 childhoods uh but it's kind of it's a good it's a useful metaphor in terms of left and right and

00:44:53.560 caducean it's like there's this and there's that look you can have anything and we might even put

00:45:00.760 them together so i mean uh we were joking about this there's a something coming up on the blaze which

00:45:07.560 is glenn beck's uh network where it's like tranny or it's lbgt or christianity and you know there

00:45:17.320 there was like blair white um who's uh a transsexual person representing lgbt you know conservatism and then

00:45:27.480 on the other side there was lauren witzky and this guy who's like a a uh fuentes clone um john doyle

00:45:36.440 i believe is his name they're representing christianity and it's like you get one or the

00:45:40.920 other it's like christianity lbgt that's what it is those are your choices chocolate or vanilla

00:45:45.480 maybe we might give you swirl and we'll have lgbt christianity and that's kind of like the hegelian

00:45:52.360 synthesis involved here which is you know not really a synthesis but the whole point is to

00:45:59.320 define the options and once those options are defined they they people will gravitate to them

00:46:08.600 and they'll become more intense you know much like you know it's like you know the the woke hysteria

00:46:15.800 creates this intensification intensified interest in you know donald trump or something it's like

00:46:23.800 anything but that and you know as it happens donald trump put up no opposition to much of the woke hysteria

00:46:33.320 which got more intense as his um administration went on and in fact he seemed to he seemed to be a

00:46:42.360 unique figure and actually promoting um transsexuality and homosexuality within the gop so

00:46:51.000 maybe he shouldn't be given total blame for this uh because you know these are macro trends but you

00:46:59.080 know it was under trump that we have lady maga or richard grinnell you know who is you know makes

00:47:07.400 promoting homosexual rights a foreign policy agenda it actually is under trump that we get these figures

00:47:15.560 and they're kind of like own the or milo who's recently gone straight uh i hear he's gone through

00:47:22.520 therapy or something but it's it's under trumpism that you actually got these swirls basically this kind

00:47:30.040 of lib owning you know new conservatism uh which you know basically says the same thing that that

00:47:39.000 conservatives have been saying for a while but now it's said in the mouth from the mouth of a drag queen

00:47:44.520 and you know so it and and these things can become more intense once you define options so it's like you

00:47:54.680 know either you like hillary or you like trump and milo you know it's one or the other and because as

00:48:00.680 one becomes more intense so does the other in the sense that it kind of needs its own opposition and

00:48:06.200 as one becomes more shrill and unbearable uh the the this the so-called opposition becomes more intense

00:48:14.440 where all of these you know conservatives who had no idea who gina carano was

00:48:19.160 you know a month ago will now flock to a ben shapiro you know led film starring gina carano

00:48:29.320 and they'll do it as a kind of polarized political act um as a way of saying no or i hate this to the

00:48:39.560 left um but again it's like you you have to understand the way in which those options are defined in which

00:48:47.720 they kind of feed off one another and need one another and reinforce one another

00:48:54.200 yeah no i i so i i remembered what i was going to say by the way but um so i i think in all right

00:48:59.640 so i'm going to interrupt you here so no all right i've already forgot it was in and it's out

00:49:07.160 it was in and out thanks matt it's a very uh it's very delicate uh very delicate ecosystem up there

00:49:17.480 one little jar and i'll forget it all

00:49:21.320 but um no no what i was going to say is that it's i think that these um the caduceon is very much

00:49:27.400 connected also to cycles is what i'm realizing as well so you know and we understand civilizations is

00:49:33.240 kind of operating in both big and small cycles right in much of the way that uh the uh year

00:49:39.960 operates in big and small cycles you have days and you have months that you know there are many cycles

00:49:44.920 within major cycles right and i i mean i actually think right now we're at the end of a very big

00:49:50.440 cycle it's my feeling with chris i think christianity is kind of coming to an end and it's so we're at the

00:49:55.800 beginning of a new thing uh and maybe it's you know maybe we can find a way to uh make things

00:50:02.680 put things in a better direction in a lot of ways but um but so but within the kind of cycle that we're

00:50:09.480 in now i think that um you know i'm speaking particularly in sort of let's we we can kind

00:50:14.120 of we we can sort of loosely define it as sort of the american empire cycle um and but it's also

00:50:20.440 part of the the larger sort of cycle of the west certainly as it were um i think that um

00:50:28.040 you know think things are coming too close but it's within the west within in america in particular

00:50:34.920 so an instinct for like a ben shapiro i like i think that as things become polarized right and in these

00:50:42.600 things you know and i think also as the kind of caducean as the two serpents of the caducean

00:50:47.560 move apart and separate there becomes opportunities you know for us effectively right um but i think

00:50:55.320 that um the the instinct you see for like a shapiro to basically ride this sort of caducean serpent

00:51:03.400 that's that's moving to the right now um and you know part of it is to try to also to kind of try to

00:51:10.200 keep you know um culturally potent forces like gina as as minor as she is she still represents

00:51:18.120 something that could become a larger cultural force as you said her her popularity increased

00:51:23.000 people started to notice who she wore who she was you know in a political way people in the

00:51:27.960 political landscape started to pay attention to her so there was some danger there that she could become

00:51:33.880 not a like a third element as it were obviously not a third party or a third but a third element and so

00:51:39.720 they wanted to keep her as part of you know on one side of the this kind of right left caducean but

00:51:48.440 part of what's going on too is that there is a kind of real and when you study i mean jewish history to

00:51:54.600 some extent but also the the mythology in particular you look at it on a kind of esoteric level there is

00:52:01.080 very much this idea of cycles um and we can take for let's take the most salient example of eden and you

00:52:08.680 know maybe you and i have discussed this on the show as well is that you know eden represents the

00:52:14.760 metaphor of eden represents an error or an epoch in fact the word eden means error or epoch you know

00:52:21.800 interestingly enough i mean this is something that never has been pointed out to us or you know it's

00:52:26.440 something that you only discover by looking at the hebrew for example um but so the whole metaphor of

00:52:32.200 eden is describing a kind of the creation of a world and its end and the fall of eden right the

00:52:39.480 you know adam uh in the serpent being kicked out of eden and this sort of thing um so i think that

00:52:47.480 their jews are very sensitive but that's just one example and it's the most salient example

00:52:52.600 um but that it's this is encoded throughout jewish esoteric moralization or throughout gem

00:52:58.440 this awareness of cycles it's civilization you know and it's something that people we don't

00:53:03.640 think of jews being aware of we think of like arians or pagans being sensitive to cycles but not jews

00:53:09.560 but the reason that we have that impression is because their understanding is esoteric in the sense

00:53:13.960 that they're not sort of in a way they're not acknowledging the cycles because to acknowledge

00:53:18.520 the cycles is to be like well why should we you know why should things be going into decline we should

00:53:24.440 try to you know rectify the decline we should try to rejuvenate the civilization and not go into

00:53:29.880 decline but those are questions that jews don't want the society to address because they benefit

00:53:36.840 from the decline right so they they there's a kind of understanding there that they are that this is

00:53:42.360 part of the sort of the process the kind of harvesting of the civilization as it were kind of you

00:53:47.560 know things are loosening up now and you know and basically um you know you know arians are going

00:53:53.880 into decline and there are opportunities for success and wealth you know if there's genetic

00:53:59.320 opportunities to have access to arians there's you know so it's it's a time of like opportunity for

00:54:05.080 them so they they are not interested in kind of like you know making us aware of the fact that we're

00:54:12.040 going into this decline obviously i mean um okay let's before we go into this more i i i want to

00:54:18.120 i want to i want to dilate on this because um sometimes you skate past something i i want to

00:54:25.640 let's talk about eden as the salient example okay but let me let me just because i i went i went uh i

00:54:33.560 went way big and let me go small again and okay to go small again is a i think that an instinct like

00:54:41.000 shapiro is it's it's it's sort of like they know that the civilization or they know that uh america

00:54:48.440 has a time limit that it's going to die and that you know in that they're good there there is going

00:54:54.120 to be an exodus again in the sense that jews are going to leave uh you know and i'm not saying that

00:54:59.400 necessarily they'll be kicked out but that this thing is going away and so in the way that a person

00:55:06.600 they can think about it practically with this knowledge that the thing's coming to a close

00:55:10.840 in the way that you know you'll have a business a person will have a business and the business also

00:55:16.360 has a kind of um uh what's the word it has a lifespan right the business has a lifespan not you know

00:55:24.280 not most businesses are not going to be relevant forever they're going to die at some point of a kind

00:55:28.840 of natural death because people no longer have the need for whatever that business is offering for

00:55:32.920 example one example right um yeah so i you know so this is a kind of a late end game thing where

00:55:40.840 they're just in a way they're kind of riding the tiger as it were right in the sense that they're

00:55:45.160 just they're trying to like extract as much they're just trying to like keep this sort of thing going

00:55:52.920 even as it becomes more apparent that this is not working like this civilization is not working

00:55:57.960 multiculturalism is not working the thing is going down rather than them saying well okay uh

00:56:04.760 this thing people are starting to realize it's not going to work they're going to ride it as long as

00:56:09.160 they can until they can no longer ride it because in the way that you would ride a business into the

00:56:14.280 ground or you would make as much profit as you could from a business before you finally had to give it

00:56:18.440 up right i mean it's just a kind of right practical decision so i think that that's what's going on and

00:56:24.280 we're going to see more of this stuff where as the kind of caducean comes apart or the serpents of

00:56:29.240 the caducean come apart we'll see we'll start seeing more stuff where shapiro or guys like shapiro or

00:56:35.480 you know and maybe at some point they're backing apparent nazis or you know or whatever the case

00:56:41.320 may be because they're just going to ride it for as long as they can ride it even though the thing

00:56:47.320 is obviously terminally done at this point yeah well i i think we can even but before we go back to

00:56:53.880 eden um i returning to eden so to speak um i i think one thing it's worth just talking about this

00:57:01.240 yeah well i just want to soften my statements a little bit i think that there's a kind of terrible

00:57:05.640 sort of tragedy to the whole thing uh from our perspective and their perspective in the sense

00:57:11.080 that there is this very like cynical understanding that like well this is just the process this is

00:57:17.640 just how it goes like there's no wondering or uh idealism like couldn't it go any different like

00:57:24.040 couldn't we figure another way right so it wouldn't have to kind of go in this direction and you know

00:57:30.280 and maybe that ultimately this is part of our project is that we are looking for another way

00:57:35.960 um you know that may also involve you know other people who are not us finding a way to like sort of

00:57:44.280 um adapt into a new ecosystem that we will develop effectively you know what i'm saying

00:57:50.040 yeah anyways um yeah well no i'll i'll bring it kind of back down to earth um in you you said

00:58:00.280 something provocative where you said something like well you know some at one point maybe the shapiro's

00:58:07.480 of the world will will like want to go and and promote nazis or whatever and that that sounds

00:58:12.600 you know unbelievable or totally counterintuitive or whatever but it's actually happening to a very

00:58:19.560 large extent i mean one of the ways that the alt-right um was so successful for a time between

00:58:29.960 say 2015 and 2017 uh was that the conservative movement had not gone in for trump they had actually

00:58:39.480 opposed trump pretty vehemently uh calling him a liberal or calling him a white nationalist or

00:58:46.520 what have you and um we were the ones who were trump's early cheerleading squad now we weren't the

00:58:53.960 only ones he had a lot of organic support online but we were the ones who were kind of creating content

00:59:00.680 creating you know edgy articles or memes or fun stuff or talking about it at a higher level or a more

00:59:08.840 or lower level you could say um and so we kind of became his cheerleading squad and i and i think the

00:59:16.280 conservative movement and the republicans recognized that and they correctly recognized it and they

00:59:22.280 recognized that there is actually a lot of energy there and they wanted to co-opt that to some

00:59:30.280 degree there's a lot of denunciations of course but they also wanted to co-op it to some degree

00:59:35.480 um and i think they want to reproduce that energy though in a form that fits the caducean dynamic and

00:59:46.120 you know i i'll i don't want to you know harp on this and i don't want to get into infighting or whatever

00:59:52.840 but i i think nick fuentes is an excellent example of this and the way that he's kind of

01:00:02.920 being managed by conservatives and and the system um you know is an is actually an excellent example of

01:00:11.800 this so um um you know fuentes's edginess is a feature not a bug in the sense that fuentes gets

01:00:24.520 more popular when he you know tells a joke about the holocaust or some edgy subject like this or says

01:00:33.160 that you know you know white people built this nation and we're not going to be bullied or some

01:00:38.200 line like this that that's a feature not a bug that isn't a misspeak that that's what kind of

01:00:42.680 gives him cred so to speak with a lot of with a fan a young fan base and maybe even an older fan base

01:00:51.080 uh to a large extent and um but what's kind of key about fuentes is that and what was not

01:01:01.880 you know key certainly about me and i and i don't think it was you know we we were trump fans at the

01:01:07.240 time but that was a different time is that he ultimately is promoting conservatism and donald trump

01:01:15.880 so he has extreme loyalty to donald trump he advertises himself as a conservative and when you

01:01:22.920 actually listen to you know what he his platform proposals are you know when the rubber hits the road

01:01:30.360 it's actually remarkably not different from conservative rhetoric and he'll talk about that

01:01:37.320 you know i i remember um listening to a bit of his um speeches or interviews recently and it's like

01:01:44.120 well this is what we're about it's the great crusade of 2024 or 20 yeah i guess that's what it was

01:01:49.160 2022 and we we want to end the lockdown the covid lockdowns or something i mean those are going to be

01:01:55.240 ended pretty soon but we're going to end those and we also want to talk about de-platforming or

01:02:01.880 and offer some kind of non-solution like section 230 but those were his ways and and he you know

01:02:07.960 talks about oh you know we're we're about true family values and christianity and so on so it's all

01:02:14.120 conservative rhetoric and but it kind of like there's also like a little sideshow here where they get into

01:02:22.200 you know alt-right stuff or white nationalism or race or whatever but it's all ultimately channeled

01:02:30.040 back into the caducean dynamic and that's again that's why he is a powerful force that's why he is

01:02:38.920 kind of managed to a certain degree so you know the main players are going to either ignore him or

01:02:46.760 denounce him but to his credit to a certain degree he has attracted kind of these other

01:02:54.200 you know bit players so you'll get like steve king or congressman goes in or michelle malkin or

01:03:01.160 whatever to kind of see this power like there's energy here this is a voting block perhaps we need

01:03:07.240 to kind of touch on this power now we're always going to deny the things that are genuinely radical

01:03:13.240 about it so you know paul goes gosner will speak at the conference but then like a day later be like

01:03:20.840 well i i think white nationalism is terrible this is not appropriate you know he said something to

01:03:26.200 this so he'll denounce the kind of radical aspects of it that he'll kind of touch on it he'll he'll get

01:03:31.320 energized by it and and you can see very similar things uh with michelle malkin michelle malkin

01:03:37.000 vehemently opposed donald trump in 2015 as a liberal and nationalist uh she now has adopted it it's

01:03:45.320 because it's all kind of flowing in her direction um so i i think you know saying something like you

01:03:53.000 know the jews will support the nazis is not as crazy as it might sound and there's actually other

01:03:59.240 examples of this you could go into the 2014 maidan situation uh where you had actual oligarchs some

01:04:07.320 of whom were jewish who were funding uh nazi groups that were opposing russia so these things aren't as

01:04:13.960 crazy as they might but key is is that that caducean kind of uh you know that caducean opposition

01:04:22.600 is maintained and they might need to go to weird places in order to maintain it and they are and

01:04:29.240 they will be probably maybe increasingly kind of willing to go there uh you know uh desperate times

01:04:37.000 desperate measures as it were yeah no i look i mean i i think that uh i think that nick is part of the

01:04:44.680 caducean um he and that's not like i think he's a he's a kind of unwitting part of it right so

01:04:52.520 i don't think that um i you know i think i don't i actually don't know what nick thinks i mean

01:04:56.760 honestly but i i mean i think that there there is some level of consciousness there but i think that

01:05:02.440 he is probably unconscious on some level in the sense that he's um he does believe essentially

01:05:08.520 what he's saying right like i you know like does he does he think he's a catholic um or does he believe

01:05:15.400 in christianity for example um i yeah probably does i don't know you know i mean but there's always

01:05:21.240 that question of like how conscious someone is and how unconscious they are so and it's it's it's

01:05:26.280 hard to speculate or know um and and usually the answer is somewhere in between right um so but i

01:05:33.400 he is he is part of the caducean but you know christianity itself is part of the caducean and i

01:05:38.600 think that one of the sort of the valuable things that we can do is sort of define what is caducean and

01:05:44.280 what is not right because theoretically like so someone could like you know someone you could

01:05:50.440 tweet something and then some guy will like tweet under you like in your replies like oh richard

01:05:55.480 spencer's false opposition right so right right so but in that's every other reply basically yeah

01:06:02.840 sure sure but yeah you know but essentially and i don't think that we're kind of accusing

01:06:08.120 nick of being false opposite uh position so much as we are no i do not think he's a fed just for the

01:06:13.320 right no no no no not and i'm not even saying that i'm saying is he effectively false opposition

01:06:17.960 he is effectively false opposition right so we're not accusing him of it we're identifying him as it

01:06:24.600 right um so it's stronger than accusing him and accusing has some moral thing we're just

01:06:30.520 we're kind of looking at it as a zoological like just reality that he is a kind of false opposition and

01:06:36.840 perhaps unwittingly i mean right um yeah but so but he so what is what is then the caducean what

01:06:45.400 defines the caducean in the christianity i would say is part of the of the caducean in fact and there

01:06:50.600 is this remarkable thing that's in my article on the caducean where the the caducean the caduceus

01:06:57.880 itself is sort of esoterically referenced in both numbers and in john where it first appears in the hebrew

01:07:06.440 bible where essentially the situation is um i may get some details wrong um but uh yahweh or yahweh

01:07:16.440 sends serpents among the israelites and the serpents poison them right uh but then he has um he commands

01:07:23.800 moses to set up another serpent a bronze serpent on a um on a pole and uh the way that the israelites

01:07:34.200 healed themselves is if they and i'm looking at it right now and anyone who was bitten by one of

01:07:38.680 the fiery serpents if he looked in faith upon the bronze serpent he lived so that the way and in a

01:07:45.000 way it's a reference also to um uh this sort of medicine cults of the ancient world right and i'm

01:07:50.920 sure this is something you're familiar with as well is that in these ancient greek medicine cults uh one of

01:07:57.240 the uh you know sort of pain relievers or painkillers was using uh limited doses of uh uh snakes venom

01:08:05.640 right and that was part of the medicinal the medicinal cults in the ancient world is that they would use

01:08:11.720 serpents uh the venom of serpents as as a painkiller right but the idea there and this is also part of the

01:08:19.240 idea with the caducean is that like too much poison you kill someone but enough poison is a you know a certain

01:08:25.880 amount of poison is a kind of way of healing them it's a vaccination well it's also a way of like

01:08:31.240 it's also a kind of opiate right so we you know in the way that uh marx described christianity is the

01:08:36.840 opiate of the people so it's also a way of like it's a drug as well so it's not necessarily um healthy

01:08:44.440 to take the medicine but the medicine can give can relieve pain at least in the short term as it were

01:08:50.680 but maybe uh maybe it amounts to a kind of slower poisoning of the body as it were as as opposed to

01:08:56.520 a more sudden and rapid poisoning of the body and if we look at the sort of the light the right left

01:09:02.920 dichotomy the left would represent the kind of more sudden poisoning of the body and the right would

01:09:07.960 represent the slower poisoning and i think that's also true if we look at the um caducean dichotomy between

01:09:14.440 the bacchanal like hollywood and pornography and christianity which would be the other serpent

01:09:20.920 we see the same thing right we see a slower poison versus a more kind of a rapid poison as it were

01:09:26.040 right um but and but the point actually in john is so john in john 3 14 he actually references in john

01:09:34.760 3 14 now we're talking about the new testament as opposed to the old testament but as occurs in the

01:09:39.480 new testament throughout these it's referencing the old the hebrew bible i mean they're very much

01:09:44.760 kind of connected the new testament in the hebrew bible um in this way um and so but he makes the

01:09:51.240 reference and he says and as moses lifted up the bronze snake on a pole in the wilderness so the son

01:09:56.920 of man which son of man is jesus christ must be lifted up right so he's he's making that reference

01:10:04.200 saying that jesus christ becomes the cure to the poison that god has sent among the israelites

01:10:11.880 right so that so uh jews with you know we're yahweh we understand ultimately as a kind of reference to

01:10:19.000 jewry um is sending serpents among the israelites um in the way in serpents are kind of metaphorical

01:10:26.280 serpents in the way you know but it was also a symbol of bacchus so we're talking about degeneracy

01:10:31.400 right so degeneracy is being sent among the israelites uh and the cure to it is this other

01:10:37.480 serpent that you put up on the pole the son of man so it's explicitly laid out the idea that

01:10:44.280 christianity is part of the caducean is something that is indicated in the details of in sort of the

01:10:50.360 esotericism as the bible as i just articulated them too so and this is one of the reasons the caducean

01:10:56.360 becomes such a useful good term for us because it's actually this the symbol that they use or this

01:11:01.240 idea so what lies outside of the caducean one what lies outside of it is our race and our family

01:11:09.800 uh in a kind of robust protected and you know form that's that's kind of defending for itself and

01:11:16.120 vying for power and its existence and amelioration in the world and that's the apollonian because

01:11:22.200 that's what the apollonian describes and the reason that we know it's outside of the caducean is because

01:11:27.560 the caducean and this is why myth becomes such a useful it helps you know why it helps us why myth

01:11:35.000 becomes more useful in a lot of ways and um ultimately than political ideology for example

01:11:40.680 is that it helps us sort of visualize and understand um you know these different forces in the world as

01:11:46.680 it were um and that's what the gods represent they represent these different forces in the world but the

01:11:51.880 the the caducean is a staff that's held by hermes or mercury who is this semitic figure he's a serpent

01:12:00.440 god akin to bacchus or dionysus as it were right so that you know that's a profound thing so we

01:12:09.800 by you know now obviously a cult of apollo could become corrupt and there's actually myths that kind of

01:12:16.040 describe this as but that as an ideal becomes something that's outside of the caducean and right

01:12:24.360 now every sort of political option as it were is within the caducean especially since the because you

01:12:31.000 know and again we need a religio-political solution because without a religio-political solution we're

01:12:38.040 sort of a weaker competitor on the field um whereas jews have a religio-political solution so they're

01:12:45.320 they're they're i mean they're kind of more put together as it were they're they're more like

01:12:50.040 kind of battle ready to win a political struggle because their struggle their political struggle

01:12:55.320 is understood as a sacred struggle on in the cosmos in the here and now in the real world whereas

01:13:01.720 christians um their political struggle is not really a serious thing it's you know compared to their

01:13:07.800 spiritual struggle or you know so you see the division between the religio and political uh religion

01:13:13.720 the political um they ultimately they they will see the the battlefield uh yeah well i i can take this

01:13:22.600 go ahead no i can take this in i can take this in in in a couple of different ways i mean first off just

01:13:30.680 on a you know smaller level uh you have this like americanism as the opposition to an intense version of americanism

01:13:41.720 so it's kind of like you know all of the wokeness uh you know the the transsexuality trend

01:13:49.880 uh you know the the homosexual rights all of these things uh or or like the disintegration of the family

01:13:57.640 the disintegration of the middle class all of these things are emanating from america and the rights

01:14:05.880 opposition to that is we need more america you know we need to we need to go back to when to like an

01:14:13.880 earlier stage of this like clear trajectory you know unavoidable trajectory of an americanism yeah

01:14:22.840 more of the lethal more of the lethal cure as it were right yeah yeah the lethal cure yeah that's a good

01:14:29.960 that's excellent way of describing it and um so you kind of see that the other aspect is that

01:14:36.440 for for christians you you always do kind of have a cop-out and i and i noticed this

01:14:41.720 um just through my kind of casual glancing at a lot of these conservatives on twitter or whatever social

01:14:48.520 media um after the stop the steal fiasco failed which it was born to fail it was you know well we don't

01:14:57.080 have to go into that but after it failed we you know in the days leading up to uh january 6th and

01:15:05.320 january 20th um the january 6th being the you know riot or buffoonish coup or whatever you want to call

01:15:13.880 it and then january 20th when biden was inaugurated you had all of these you know all of this tough talk

01:15:20.520 amongst conservatives like you know well you know this isn't a democracy this is a republic

01:15:26.760 and you know we need to use power to you know promote the family and our ends and all this

01:15:33.320 kind of stuff and um then after january 6th or after january 20th especially you had this retreat

01:15:41.000 into well we're all you know the the real thing is that we have to adopt jesus christ to be saved in

01:15:47.480 the afterlife and you know actually we're going to all kind of become homeschoolers and you know our

01:15:53.000 children will inherit the earth as it were because we're gonna we're gonna homeschool them so hard

01:15:58.040 that they're gonna be you know god-fearing christ-loving americans you know in 100 years

01:16:05.720 and then we'll take over or something but it's just this kind of immediate cop-out from politics that

01:16:12.040 they always have in their back pocket and so the all of the tough talk about using power just becomes

01:16:20.200 merely that it just becomes tough talk because i i think one of the you know fascinating things

01:16:25.960 about conservatives who actually have had a lot of success electorally speaking over the past 30 years

01:16:32.680 i mean these past 30 years in congress have been as i called it the red era i mean it's it's you know

01:16:39.480 they they have mostly held congress um and they have had you know hugely popular and impactful politicians

01:16:49.000 and celebrities and personalities etc and they they have no idea what to do with power once they get a

01:16:56.520 hold of it you know i don't know i mean i think the the trump phenomenon might have been an example of

01:17:02.680 this in the sense that you know i i think trump had a lot of good instincts in 2015 from what i heard i

01:17:11.080 mean there was a reason that you and i were trump fans and we thought this is great and hilarious and

01:17:17.720 inspiring etc is that you know he seemed to be if you just listen to him he seemed to be kind of a

01:17:23.000 nationalist he wanted to take care of people he wanted to change the paradigm he wanted to get all

01:17:27.960 the bad people out he wanted to have a new foreign policy uh etc but you know whether that was all a

01:17:36.200 grift or a con or whether he was opposed just so vehemently from within his own cabinet and party

01:17:44.680 or or whether he just had no earthly idea what to do with power once he got it you know i think it's

01:17:51.400 probably in between those things i think all of those were factors um but the fact is he had no

01:17:57.080 fucking clue what to do once he got in office and you saw that immediately after being inaugurated

01:18:03.480 where you know before long we were doing things like you know oh a muslim travel ban and you know

01:18:10.600 even building the wall is this like great symbol of american nationalism that is ultimately kind of

01:18:17.240 meaningless it's like not really addressing the issue which is racial and demographic and again in that

01:18:25.320 first year what what did he accomplish you know incoherent health care policy that no one likes tax

01:18:31.800 cuts blah blah blah it was it was almost just over because he was he's like the dog chasing after the

01:18:40.280 mailman's truck he wouldn't know what to do if he actually got a hold of it and conservatives are like

01:18:46.600 that they don't have a mythic ideological religious you could say basis to the point that even if donald trump

01:18:55.800 had succeeded with stop the steal like let's say they had literally stopped the steal and they had

01:19:02.840 you know gone outside of congress and made a big show or even gone into congress and just

01:19:07.640 stopped the senators from certifying the vote what would have happened what what we would we would have

01:19:15.000 gotten 2019 all over again you know i mean it it would be 2019 but maybe even worse if donald trump had

01:19:24.600 dictatorial powers it would have been a big nothing burger because there there isn't a you know you you have to

01:19:32.840 have a religious ideological basis in order to pursue power you're not just reacting to some other people

01:19:42.120 with that basis you are the ones on the offensive changing matters and if you lack that then it's just

01:19:51.400 like you know putting a kid in office and saying oh i decree as president that everyone gets two

01:19:58.200 cheeseburgers on thursday it's just meaningless nonsense and even if trump had like established

01:20:05.160 a dictatorship that's what we would have gotten yeah no i i agree i mean it's that you know in

01:20:12.280 it's like that's sort of like uh you know it's sort of like nick now but on a much larger scale um

01:20:20.040 um where you know again i mean it's it's um the two parties in in this country are um of the same

01:20:30.200 body two heads of the same body as it were um and ultimately but then you know within that you have

01:20:37.240 individuals who are are kind of exercising a sort of individual will to power and and backing people

01:20:43.640 like trump and um you know uh but you know ultimately i mean one thing that we can say

01:20:51.080 that is both um i don't i don't know if it's bad but i guess it's kind of encouraging in a way that we

01:20:57.160 we definitely have seen things you know that would have been unthinkable when we were in college for

01:21:02.120 example right um so it's i'll give you an example like it used to be back in the day like um being like

01:21:10.520 a a devotee of um ayn rand or libertarianism was kind of an edgy thing i mean that was sort of like

01:21:19.560 where uh that was where the over the edge of the overton window was essentially right yeah that's

01:21:26.680 changed in our lifetime definitely i mean we've seen like basically the mainstreaming to a greater

01:21:31.480 extent of libertarianism um and we one might say well libertarianism became paused or it began

01:21:38.600 it no it no it it kind of actually became what it was ultimately right i mean it kind of sort of

01:21:44.120 it sort of reached its sort of logical conclusion it became it yeah it is it is kind of something that

01:21:50.280 is kind of gay and it's sort of towards it is it is kind of toward it is liberalism it is libertarian

01:21:57.480 it's in actually in the word libertarianism um so um so we've seen kind of a remarkable political

01:22:05.800 shift in our lifetime and we've seen a great polarization of things and pete you know back

01:22:11.960 then and this would be kind of you know and it was more on a kind of esoteric level but libertarianism

01:22:18.200 used to be a thing a kind of a kind of thing that like you know mainstream jews would be

01:22:22.920 you know warn people of or be irritated with or wary of like libertarianism was kind of a demon

01:22:28.840 and it's because you know and it's something that they sort of had an intuition or sense of

01:22:35.880 that we lacked in the sense that we ultimately would realize well libertarianism was like you

01:22:41.160 know this became one of the cliches of the alt-right is that it was a road to the alt-right libertarianism

01:22:47.000 was one of the tracks to the alt-right yeah so that you know so they in a way they're they're

01:22:52.280 usually a couple of steps ahead of us in the sense that they understand that that kind of goes towards

01:22:56.840 you know fascism or whatever that goes towards uh nationalism um because it's even though it's

01:23:04.040 very distinct from nationalism in a lot of ways you know i mean i mean the ayn rand sort of

01:23:09.640 propaganda has these sort of fascistic aesthetic aspects to it um that are you know uh which were

01:23:17.240 also things that were kind of irritating irritating to the left but ultimately the ideal the ideology

01:23:22.920 itself represents a de-collectivizing that ultimately they understand can only result in a

01:23:30.040 re-collectivizing which you know is nationalism or racialism um and so but we so there we see that they

01:23:39.080 are a couple of steps ahead of us realizing the danger because libertarianism itself is not the

01:23:44.440 danger it's where libertarianism goes um and yeah and so it is remarkable that we have seen a lot of

01:23:53.560 shifting and so that was also ultimately the reason it's not trump ultimately that they feared or trumpism

01:23:59.960 or maga it's what what it's what inevitably maga sort of gives way to or what you know what's behind

01:24:09.240 what's coming after maga is what is what they fear ultimately you know what i mean yeah yeah i know

01:24:17.400 i i think that's true and i i think they different jews in in some ways and and here i you could even

01:24:24.440 you can even talk about kind of people you know gentiles who are intensely aligned with them as well

01:24:29.880 are kind of part of the same camp um but it's like you you can see this even with the religious right

01:24:37.000 and like different different jews kind of perceive it on different levels and have different reactions

01:24:41.560 to it and you can see this with a you know something like the the phenomenon of the religious right

01:24:48.680 um and in christian zionism in particular i mean on one hand very important jews you could say the kind

01:24:56.360 of hardline nationalistic jews like bibi netanyahu and so on they have absolutely embraced this thing

01:25:05.480 you know they they fund fundamentalist preachers they bring them on tours of israel they blow them up

01:25:14.200 they treat them as as equals seemingly and and so on um and then you have this kind of like uh other

01:25:22.680 brand the you know new york times reading jews who are completely freaked out by the phenomenon of the

01:25:31.720 religious right and the religious right you know or christian zionism in particular if you look into

01:25:37.880 their you know to their ideology and say the the immediate implications of their ideology it is by no

01:25:45.240 means threatening to jews i mean it is these are the chosen peoples god's chosen people this is how the

01:25:51.320 covenants make sense is through the jewish people they are pro israel to say the least um they um you know

01:26:00.840 what are i have no sympathy for palestinian christians the christianity in general is not

01:26:06.920 threatening to jews i mean let's be honest you know i'm saying well i know i'm getting there i'm getting

01:26:10.600 there it's a it's a it's a complicated thing though but they they they are pro-jewish just objectively the

01:26:18.200 religious right but i think some of those there's another there's a certain type of jew that perceives the

01:26:24.680 danger in it and the religious right historically and i think to a still to a very large extent

01:26:32.360 is about you know white people gathering together in rooms and you know giving big bombastic speeches

01:26:41.080 and feeling nationalistic and feeling a sense of togetherness and they read that as as fascism

01:26:49.320 as maybe even nazism and you can kind of see this again with donald trump where

01:26:54.680 donald trump is the most pro israeli president ever donald trump is not anti-semitic i mean he has

01:27:04.680 jews within his family um donald trump has not done things that are anti-jewish but just this

01:27:12.440 this the kind of like outward appearance of trumpian nationalism does get their antenna up in the sense

01:27:22.520 that it's about talking about oh there's an evil elite out there that's taken all the money and

01:27:27.000 power we need to give it back to the people oh you know look where that leads there's you know these

01:27:31.960 trump rallies where it's you know 90 95 white people from small towns from the middle of the country

01:27:38.840 getting together you know hooting and hollering getting a little bit drunk and getting excited about

01:27:44.360 a leader who they're behind that kind of stuff really freaks them out and i think it's the kind of like

01:27:52.760 power of the caducean that you and i perceive which is that okay i can kind of see both sides of this but

01:28:01.800 like none of these things are for us none of these things are actually anti-system none of these things

01:28:10.200 are going to bring about a you know true flourishing of our extended family and both of them kind of

01:28:20.840 have certain appealing aspects to them the left has certain appealing aspects to it it's more

01:28:25.960 theoretical it's smarter it's more willing to criticize uh the american system or or say

01:28:33.240 look at things have a foreign policy that's a little more even-handed uh etc obviously the right has

01:28:39.240 certain you know we have we have a certain empathy towards it it's like ah you know these are you know

01:28:44.360 white guys getting together being proud of themselves uh but all of it is focused within

01:28:51.560 this you know chocolate vanilla swirl you know dynamic it's all none of it is about us at the

01:28:59.560 end of the day it's all about things that don't fundamentally matter and things that are supporting

01:29:06.120 other people and both sides are kind of have their temptations but both sides are ultimately wrong

01:29:15.800 yeah no i agree i mean you know another metaphor or another way maybe you're thinking about it is that

01:29:21.320 the conservative side or the christian or right side even though they're kind of moving in a direction

01:29:27.400 that's uh ultimately kind of directionless and mindless you know as far as like deeper existential

01:29:33.400 questions of like whether or not you know for example as a white race whether christian or

01:29:37.960 otherwise are they going to exist in you know 400 years or whatever the question may be right but

01:29:43.960 so they it's but they are they represent um a still kind of living part of the body a sort of

01:29:53.640 poisoned and blinded and confused but still living part of the body whereas the left represents a kind of

01:30:01.480 dead or or one something that has become basically completely compliant or servile right to jews effectively

01:30:09.640 but the right it's not so much that they're going against the interests of uh jews it's that they're

01:30:16.520 still showing some kind of life or vigor as it were right the body is not yet dead so you know it's like

01:30:22.760 you you have an animal in a net for example it's still kicking right so it's still dangerous but it's not

01:30:29.320 necessarily um empowered to save itself you know what i mean but it still represents a danger of some

01:30:36.360 time and it could free itself

01:30:49.000 so

01:30:57.880 so

01:30:59.880 so

01:31:09.400 so

01:31:11.400 so

01:31:13.400 so

01:31:24.920 so

01:31:26.920 so

01:31:38.440 so

01:31:40.440 so

01:31:51.960 so

01:31:53.960 so

01:32:07.480 so

01:32:09.480 so

01:32:23.000 so

01:32:25.000 so

01:32:38.520 so

01:32:40.520 so

01:32:54.040 so

01:32:56.040 so

01:33:09.560 so

01:33:11.560 so

01:33:13.560 so

01:33:27.080 so

01:33:29.080 so

01:33:31.080 you

01:33:44.600 so

01:33:46.600 you

01:33:56.600 you

01:34:01.080 you

01:34:16.600 you

01:34:18.600 you

RadixJournal - March 14, 2021

Conservatism, Cancel Culture, and the Caducean

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