RadixJournal - Cucksplaining - Is Rod Dreher Really A Christian？

00:00:00.000 so well in a way yeah it's uh it's about christianity it's about the jews it's about

00:00:06.460 anti-semitism and a whole lot more but before first things even makes another guest appearance

00:00:12.580 yes first things is back the ultimate cock journal though in this in this case actually not

00:00:18.000 they're right something hardcore yeah they they they they have a remnant of traditional catholicism

00:00:26.360 but we'll get into that soon yeah just to explain to everyone just in case you're tuning in for the

00:00:30.940 first time this is cucksplaining hannibal bateman and i will go through line by line a super cuck

00:00:38.780 article we will read it so you don't have to and we will get into the cuck mind and perhaps

00:00:45.400 understand them better or perhaps just laugh uh so we are going to go into dreyer um i don't know if

00:00:52.300 dreyer needs an introduction for our audience um i have known about dreyer for a long time i

00:01:01.100 uh so rod dreyer he wrote crunchy cons i believe in like 2005 or 2006 or something like that that

00:01:09.520 was sort of one of the big sort of post wake paleo con books right richard the post what the post uh

00:01:15.980 the post sort of bush it wasn't post bush but it was it was sort of the first post nine it was like

00:01:22.880 post iraq you know paleo ish responses so you know in 2003 rod dreyer was just a cut out of the cloth

00:01:34.880 of national review pro war journalist yeah and in 2000 let's let's say five or six i can't remember when

00:01:41.720 exactly wrote it you can look it up it doesn't matter it was around that time uh he writes a

00:01:46.700 book called crunchy cons and it's all about how his wife is the only one at whole foods with the

00:01:52.780 national review uh tote bag and uh all this kind of stuff and he he basically in in a totally like

00:02:02.440 hollow and meaningless manner kind of gestures towards 2006 2006 it gestures towards traditionalism

00:02:10.980 and localism and and and and and being nice and cutesy and granola and all this kind of stuff as a

00:02:17.780 kind of conservative response and i do think that it was ultimately coming from the bush era because

00:02:25.980 there was a cottage industry of this there was a lot of localism and crunchiness and basically

00:02:31.940 alternatives to bush conservative yeah and they were rediscovering they were rediscovering

00:02:36.820 paleo conservatism but in this again totally non-offensive you know manner i mean paleo

00:02:46.020 conservatism i mean chronicles magazine their number one columnist no question was samuel francis

00:02:51.580 and even to his credit uh thomas fleming was talking about evolutionary biology and evolutionary

00:02:57.400 psychology in the pages of chronicles and it should be needless to say was a much more political

00:03:04.420 thinker yeah thinker than dreyer like chronicles was a lot more conservative yeah i would not just

00:03:10.420 conservative a lot more a lot more radical yeah or like his column when he was there was called hard

00:03:16.180 right it was a kind of angry cantankerous gritty you know i hate everything especially george w bush

00:03:24.140 yeah exactly and he did challenge them i with the dreyer it's the it's the kind of lighter

00:03:29.500 lighter obviously more palatable feminine as well version of this and it's it's all well and good i

00:03:37.800 mean i i get it why you would want to run away from the vulgarity of the religious right or the

00:03:43.520 vulgarity of bush you yourself might be called a crunchy con richard well yes i am a whole foods fascist

00:03:48.920 as we determined in our recent alt-right plus content podcast as a preppy fascist i believe it's a

00:03:55.000 variety of uh variety of crunchy con right yes yeah brooks brother socialism preppy fascism uh

00:04:02.800 yeah i mean look i i think it's funny i i don't think anyone's ever accused me of of not being

00:04:07.880 radical or not offending people so i think we're i think i'm good but uh in terms of that whole crunchy

00:04:15.400 phenomenon i it's funny it was such it was such a wave it was like a two-year wave i remember because i

00:04:20.860 was uh i was at amcon i was it's the transitional phase really for paleoconism yeah it was a younger

00:04:27.640 generation of paleocons the paleocons of course hated them that's because they hate everyone but

00:04:32.020 anyway that is definitely over um but rod i uh i briefly met rod dreyer and rod dreyer was you could

00:04:42.060 say flirting with the the the burgeoning alt-right or the the burgeoning you know

00:04:50.780 uh what i burgeoning alt-right it was he he would he would link to talkie mag when i was there and

00:04:56.600 so on and and i would write a critique of his and he would respond or something like it was

00:05:00.820 there was at least some kind of knowledge in the way that national review now would only attack us or

00:05:08.800 try to ignore you're still i think occasionally links to steve sailor and things like that yeah

00:05:13.400 yeah uh so uh it's interesting um but anyway i met him briefly um in dallas texas i believe it was

00:05:25.580 2008 it might have been 2009 it's immaterial uh i was uh editing talkies magazine and um i i was home

00:05:36.000 for the thanksgiving holiday and he was living there he was uh the dallas morning news had become a shell

00:05:42.840 of itself by the time that he was there uh uh i i know this i actually grew up with the uh i think

00:05:48.860 one of the uh also texan of the year finalist richard yes i was a texas of the year so i should

00:05:53.680 not a texan texan of the year finalist uh dallas morning news i should not bash them um i i grew up

00:06:00.980 with one someone who was a very high up and uh the son of someone who's very high up than dallas

00:06:05.860 morning news i don't uh i'm not in the journalism and the uh ownership management but

00:06:10.000 um yeah it like a lot of these papers unless you're the wall street journal or the new york times or

00:06:17.560 maybe if you're some little local paper you could survive but as in that you know space where no one's

00:06:23.160 reading newspapers anymore it it became hollowed out where it was just a it was like the sports section

00:06:27.880 and a bunch of ap stories from the wire that they were reprinting it was it was pretty pathetic

00:06:32.880 anyway um but he was there uh at that time uh this was before he went to the american conservative

00:06:39.820 and so i met him for drinks he was perfectly fine we talked a bit uh you know i think he could tell

00:06:46.240 that i was a little too radical for him but but whatever uh you had a good time didn't you uh not

00:06:52.660 that great but uh but anyway uh he was perfectly nice i don't i don't want to bash him personally i mean

00:06:59.460 um i believe he's done the same courtesy to you before i i think there was some alt-right article

00:07:04.740 yeah where he was like i once met richard spencer and it was right perfectly yeah it was perfectly

00:07:09.800 fine i don't think we were we're ever going to be friends or anything but you know i'm not gonna you

00:07:14.020 know there's no you know he's a gentleman he's not you know i would say this about him he's not

00:07:18.820 gross or something you know he's he's not one of these conservatives who's just you know

00:07:22.440 uh hugely fat and disgusting and and and unpresentable he tries really hard to what

00:07:29.540 no i'm just saying he tries really hard no he is a try hard you know he tries hard to think he tries

00:07:35.020 yeah he tries very he tries he tries to read dante and yeah it's things kind of sad uh anyway so

00:07:44.320 he went on to the american conservative uh he uh he he apparently is there he is their blogger i mean

00:07:54.760 from what we've heard all the hits go to him for on that web scene and uh i think the reason is and

00:08:02.180 you you can tell by the writing style of this piece is that it's like the ultimate expression

00:08:07.380 of middle brow theology or like politics like he's the best middle brow blogger on the right

00:08:15.420 yeah but in some ways because he is so aggressively middle brow he becomes just insanely punchable

00:08:23.960 because he's not in a way that yeah like we are pretentious in a lovable way right right i i when i

00:08:31.820 whenever i try whenever i'm arrogant or pretentious i do it with a bit of a wink uh and

00:08:37.340 a bit of a knowing smile or something like that he's he's pretentious because again he's he's like

00:08:43.920 a middle class person becoming this traditionalist try hard and but never actually going i mean you

00:08:50.940 can see in this article he's never actually willing to bring anything to fruition it's just this kind of

00:08:57.000 pose mawkish pose that he sets on on his articles and again it's like if someone is low brow there's

00:09:05.240 something redeemable to them a low brow person can be funny it can be hilarious or outlandish or

00:09:10.780 there might be just something there that's there's a vitality to it yeah or if obviously if someone's

00:09:15.540 high you know again too high brow your your your your head's in the cloud you're speaking to no one

00:09:21.020 um you know you hit that right mean of high iq political writing it's really interesting you can

00:09:27.040 see something in a way that that i can read something from someone that intelligent that i i can

00:09:33.100 see the world a little bit differently and it's rewarding aggressive low brow you're just reiterating

00:09:39.380 bromides and in this conversational style you're reassuring your suburban audience and they can just

00:09:48.000 nod along with your effectively totally non-radical you know establishment friendly nonsense dressed up in

00:09:58.800 the garbs of semi-radicalism i might add yes exactly and that's what makes it all so much more fun

00:10:05.320 because he can put forth totally mainstream liberal ideas but tell you about how he's an orthodox or tell

00:10:11.880 you how he's vacillated yeah uh because he's he's dealing with the tensions of liberalism and it's really

00:10:19.380 driving him wild or you know but what are you gonna do okay so hannibal please explain this

00:10:28.500 controversy okay because you know it better than i i have done some research yeah no but please i don't

00:10:34.020 doubt you well you know so going back to uh one of the staples of this podcast first things uh it seems

00:10:42.620 that they took our advice to heart in our last podcast because they were listening right they were

00:10:49.360 listening uh and that's so much is clear and what and what they heard was we need to go hard what should

00:10:56.580 we do and they actually decided to go hard in an interesting direction and it really relates to

00:11:02.580 the jq of all things yeah and they went hard in a really hard way yeah so a catholic priest i his name

00:11:10.720 escapes me at the moment he wrote an article for first things where he defended uh this case by pope

00:11:19.160 pious the ninth his name is romanus cesario sounds like a reputable man to me

00:11:26.440 um he wrote he he wrote a defense of an action by pope pious the ninth probably one of the better

00:11:35.740 popes in my own in my own pseudo mid 19th century yeah perception mid 19th century and what happened

00:11:43.240 here was this there was a jewish family who had a child that was deathly ill deathly sick uh it was

00:11:52.480 you know was on its deathbed and they employed a catholic maid and of course they lived in the papal

00:11:59.340 states and the maid good catholic was that controversial i don't think that was as much

00:12:09.140 controversial the the years of the ghetto right also you have to remember at this time the papal

00:12:14.900 states extend over almost all of tuscany right and they have you know bologna right and they have

00:12:20.320 ports on the adriatic and the uh what's the other sea on the med yeah yeah i think there might be a

00:12:28.400 yeah but yeah they but extended to both parts so it's a very wide area yeah um so obviously there's a

00:12:34.140 large amount of people living uh living in the papal states but anyway these this this catholic maid

00:12:41.340 uh decides to baptize the child before it uh presumably might die out of in her in her mind

00:12:49.160 an act of contrition uh especially from a catholic christian perspective this is probably the most um

00:12:55.840 you know it was an act of love right it was an act of love it was an act of charity uh however the

00:13:02.280 child did recover and this posed a conundrum which was what do you do with this child now who's a

00:13:09.660 baptized catholic but being raised in this jewish family well pope pius the ninth decides to take the

00:13:17.280 child away from the care of the family the jewish family because they will not raise the child uh as a

00:13:24.120 catholic within the church's tradition traditions and this is wildly controversial uh it is controversial

00:13:32.580 because in catholic liturgy once someone is baptized they must receive a catholic education and upbringing

00:13:39.080 and so on yeah right and you can see where this sort of rubs uh rubs uh including the child of non-catholic

00:13:46.340 right right rubs a lot of people the wrong way especially these this jewish couple and it becomes a big

00:13:52.940 affair however this priest in first things writes an article in defense of this decision to take

00:14:00.360 this uh this child from the jewish family and raise him as a catholic rather than as a um rather than

00:14:07.120 as an adherent to judaism and of course you know this sets off all the bells yeah you know in mainstream

00:14:15.840 uh publications both on the right and left oh no we're kidnapping yeah right not only is it kidnapping

00:14:23.700 but you're you're committing an unforgivable sin of saying to a christian that judaism is just not

00:14:30.920 true as well you're you're admitting that you have values prior to liberal pluralism uh which we'll get

00:14:38.160 into uh in roger's article but that's roughly or some weird you know american or british like

00:14:46.060 philo-semitism where you feel like you're on the same team and it should be noted it was interesting

00:14:51.920 the editor of uh of first things rr reno he issued an apology for running this article uh a couple days

00:15:01.560 after it ran and you know uh reno i don't i don't know if our listeners know this he is a he's a

00:15:08.940 professed catholic or theoretically a practicing catholic but he's married to a jewish woman and

00:15:14.200 he's raised his children as jewish and in this apologetic letter i don't know if you've read this

00:15:20.180 letter richard but it's worth perusing he even mentions how a woman who was a gentile who married

00:15:26.900 uh a jew who can and she converted to judaism she came to him once and with a crisis of faith

00:15:34.060 oh asking him if she should go back to the catholic church and he admits in this article he told her no

00:15:40.760 you should stay with your family and not not not pursue this further which you know this is one

00:15:47.560 this whole letter was one of the most conservative things i've ever read yeah because either you're not

00:15:52.560 even a christian either either either you accept your catholicism as true and if you accept it as

00:15:59.400 true it is an intense sadness that your own children are not going to be going to burn in hell as well as

00:16:06.220 your wife yes like and and also you know again i'm saying this as a non-christian but i'm just taking

00:16:14.600 this seriously i mean you're this person's especially from a traditional so-called traditionalist

00:16:20.240 perspective yeah and granted yes he is a merciful god but nevertheless on this this part i'm not

00:16:27.220 sure how merciful not just that these are these are these are choices being made by from a christian

00:16:33.060 perspective right there are choices being made by you in your life it's not it's not an act of mercy

00:16:38.540 you were making the choice right to burn in hell in this particular so it it effectively he does not

00:16:44.940 really believe right because if he believed yes it's a tragedy he his mind in his own mind he might

00:16:51.920 ache in a way over it but he doesn't ultimately uh come down on the side of his own truth he's and he

00:16:59.380 he is even though they might buy a lot this is a weird way where it's almost like the reverse of a

00:17:05.780 cuck because the cucks we usually imagine are you know some like southern congressmen they've adopted

00:17:11.440 haitian children he's like but they're christian americans or whatever but so they're they're not

00:17:16.240 biologically his but he imagines that they're like culturally or religiously and politically his

00:17:22.420 this is a weird kind of reversal where the children are biologically his but but they're not culturally and

00:17:31.460 and spiritually his it's a weird i don't know if i've i don't know if i've seen cuckservatism of this

00:17:39.040 nature before what what is it well i mean to briefly it's kind of worse in a way you know

00:17:43.860 to briefly digress i guess into the jewish question it is uh you could argue one of one of the best uh

00:17:51.040 group evolutionarily evolutionary evolutionary evolutionary strategies yeah uh that they have

00:17:56.740 which is that children born from a uh jewish female are jewish by jewish law right so it makes it

00:18:05.320 easier to marry into elite groups or any group uh when you you know when you think about it simply

00:18:11.120 because it's easier to marry off a pretty daughter or something like that sure than it is to get a son

00:18:16.880 say to marry a vanderbilt yeah there's always demand on the male side and supply on the female side

00:18:22.160 yes and so yes yeah um anyway should we get into this let's let's do it let's see what's here

00:18:30.100 what brother rod okay has to say brother rod okay justice mercy and anti-semitism by rod dreher

00:18:38.360 january 15th 2018 he wrote this at 9 30 a.m by the way that is on their website i guess he got up

00:18:46.860 early or something these facts we bring we bring these facts to you just the facts yeah um to write

00:18:54.200 this vlog or he because his writing is so shallow it's he could write in like 10 i'm sure he can post

00:18:59.100 whenever he wants he probably has posting privileges i i would imagine a couple of you bring to my

00:19:04.500 attention the comments of the catholic writer eve tushnet on the recent online controversy over

00:19:10.300 catholic integralism a concept that can be defined simply like this from a catholic integralist website

00:19:16.980 okay first off i get that it's blogging and that's what he's doing but just the total absence of style

00:19:23.800 like it there's there's there's and processing like there's no processing going on it's like he's

00:19:29.520 just thinking through out loud or on digitally on this is literally like a couple of you bring my

00:19:36.820 attention like why are you writing this way like what are you like there's no reason actually there's

00:19:42.060 an interesting psychological reason when you think about it richard why you're so say you know he as a

00:19:48.220 blogger he gets a couple dozen or more emails a day he's rewarding those people that email on him

00:19:56.700 email him yeah and and you know by implication asking more people yeah to email them that way

00:20:02.560 any reader that reads that that sent him an email whether he responds or not automatically connects

00:20:08.260 still it's just bad writing there's no reason to do that however we should also note that eve we should

00:20:12.900 also note eve tushnet for one oh yeah this is an interesting character in and of its own right

00:20:17.320 i've heard about her for like 10 years from i remember helen riddlemeyer and who's now helen

00:20:23.260 andrews i believe because she's married um she was always taught she was always talking about eve tushnet

00:20:29.640 who's this like lesbian catholic and this is so amazing and i remember reading her pieces and not

00:20:37.220 being very impressed well we're all about to hear a little bit of eve tushnet yeah we will okay but

00:20:42.780 not not right now this is from a catholic integralist website catholic catholic integralism

00:20:48.920 is a tradition of thought that rejects the liberal separation of politics from concern with the end of

00:20:54.840 human life holding that political rule must order man to his final goal since however man has both a

00:21:01.100 temporal and an eternal end integralism holds that there are two powers that rule him a temporal power

00:21:07.380 and a spiritual power and since man's temporal end is subordinated to his eternal end the temporal

00:21:12.380 power must be subordinated to the spiritual power uh i actually uh i have to say i i agree with this

00:21:19.440 logic uh a i think the separation as i've said many times i think the separation of church of state is a

00:21:25.920 rather ridiculous concept uh historically and and and and also psychologically you could say i mean

00:21:32.380 obviously historically it's the the the there are state religions even and there are certainly

00:21:37.780 religions without states but even those had a had a political component to them they they just they

00:21:43.660 define the tribe you know or the people or or so on so this idea that religion is is this in this

00:21:52.200 hyper protestant way is just some thing that we do behind closed doors or it's just a matter of personal

00:21:59.020 will or personal church i i i think that's that's bullshit it's a historical and then b even in the

00:22:04.600 united states where there is this so-called you know uh vaunted tradition of the separation of church

00:22:10.080 and state there's never really been a separation of church and state uh there this there is a

00:22:14.860 mainstream american protestantism that has undergirded the legitimacy of the government a lot of states

00:22:23.760 were founded with state churches yeah sure uh you know explicitly but even that i some like isi people

00:22:30.720 will point out that i'm going a little bit i'm saying that like even in the united states government

00:22:37.560 like this government there was never really a separation there was always a religious component

00:22:43.640 to the practice of politics and the whole social order is undergirded by belief

00:22:49.520 that's why i'm a tragic i'm a tragic atheist or tragic ethnostic or a tragic

00:22:55.200 pagan or whatever you want to call me it's because i i recognize that actually paul you can't separate

00:23:02.300 these two things and that i am not a fervent believer and i'm willing to be open about that

00:23:08.020 uh and and to but but i recognize it as a problem as a tragedy right and i i would agree with those

00:23:15.540 things and i would say you know um as something of a catholic the catholic integralist perspective i

00:23:23.000 think is roughly correct yeah and i think uh also if you were an american it obviously should raise

00:23:29.680 grave doubts about the american project uh about a lot of projects yeah you know uh in and of itself

00:23:36.960 the american project has been you know denounced right and not just as well by many a pope pope pious

00:23:42.440 the ninth declared americanism a heresy along with liberalism which of course both are and i think

00:23:49.340 both are very wrong and very destructive uh to the world as we see it yeah uh i have a lot of sympathy

00:23:56.920 for the catholic integralist position uh richard though he is not a catholic i think very well

00:24:02.000 understands and has some sympathy and understanding the world in a post-liberal or beyond the liberal

00:24:08.520 perspective in that same way yeah yeah no question no question uh this all came up on this blog in

00:24:15.320 response to a book review again all this like showing not or telling not showing like he's just

00:24:20.960 telling you what he's thinking you're getting links and yeah he's telling you what he's thinking as

00:24:25.100 opposed to thinking you know it's a classic excuse me uh it's a classic maxim in theater or film or you

00:24:33.200 or novels or what you you uh you show don't tell don't tell your audience what you're doing you do

00:24:39.500 it um and uh i think it's there's a similar maxim in writing you you should just think through writing

00:24:46.880 you shouldn't tell them what you're thinking about it's stupid bad writing rod dreyer is a bad writer

00:24:52.820 and the fact that he's what is he in his 50s or something yeah he'll never get better so he's

00:24:58.140 inherently bad sorry rod i really don't dislike you rod just being honest if you're listening and you

00:25:03.440 are yeah but you're a bad writer you're not that smart but i don't dislike you and i'm not bashing

00:25:10.700 you sorry uh but you are the truth hurts sometimes i have my own faults yes uh this all came up on this

00:25:20.740 blog in response to a book review on the first thing site in which a dominican priest issued a full

00:25:25.340 throated defense of pope pius the ninth for removing edguardo montara from his jewish family's

00:25:31.200 home the montaras were living in the papal states at the time and pius was therefore the head of state

00:25:36.740 the child had been baptized secretly by a catholic housemaid uh when he was on the verge of death as an

00:25:43.860 infant and when this fact became known to the church five years later the pope's men seized him

00:25:49.140 saying that they had a responsibility under canon law and otherwise to give the christian child a

00:25:54.040 catholic upbringing the mortara case caused a huge uproar at the time and had something to do with

00:25:59.260 the pope losing the papal states i'm not exactly a liberal okay thanks rod but it was still shocking

00:26:06.860 to me to read in a mainstream journal like first things an unapologetic defense of pope pius the

00:26:12.760 night's actions okay i think i'm stealing this from thermidor mag's twitter account but okay this

00:26:18.440 sentence is not almost literally like wow just wow this is the current year yes that is what this

00:26:27.720 sentence is and like don't deny it you know he's like well i'm not a liberal but wow just wow also

00:26:34.780 notice it's like this is 2016 it's like i'm not exactly a liberal but i am yeah exactly i'm not

00:26:41.980 exactly a liberal but let me put forth like something liberal propositions yeah uh but there

00:26:49.720 it was and as i blogged here yesterday that same author had in different in a different place

00:26:55.280 published a uh farrago of clericalist bs oh clericalist bs downplaying the seriousness of the

00:27:03.020 pre-sex abuse scandal and longing for the days when the church had the right to police its own priest

00:27:08.380 and not have them compelled to answer before secular courts of justice pre-2002 boston wasn't

00:27:16.660 an integralist polity nor was the nation of ireland but both were arguably as close as you can get to

00:27:22.800 that in the modern world in terms of the role of the catholic church played in public life

00:27:27.760 and the results were catastrophic i mean 2002 boston richard a theocratic state i mean lord help us

00:27:36.920 god i mean what imagine what it was like in 1978 when i was born there i'm surprised i was not

00:27:43.980 ripped from my mother's arms and just baptized and then kidnapped you know i'm thankfully i'm still

00:27:52.400 an episcopalian confirmed but 2002 boston what a the closest you can get to an integralist state yeah

00:28:02.260 and look look i i i'm sure i i look i don't want to go delve too deep deeply into the the the priest

00:28:11.140 child sex scandal and um you know i and look i i'm and i'm sure there's extremes on both sides

00:28:17.120 there are people who overblow it and there are people who underblow it no question and the truth

00:28:20.400 is somewhere in the middle i get it uh and i'm sure there were clerics who were just who were covering

00:28:26.500 up and just saying oh well we will police our own clerics and and and there's a secular you know

00:28:31.840 authority and and things like that okay but the results were catastrophic all right look all what

00:28:39.240 happened with those boys and young men who were abused by these terrible priests that those are those

00:28:46.900 are very bad things but to say this was some like cataclysm because of you know too much catholic

00:28:56.220 clerical power or something is is ridiculous i mean first off as many people have pointed out

00:29:01.660 fair-minded liberals have pointed this out that there is there is actually per capita more abuse

00:29:07.440 in public school systems there are more abuse in other institutions of society than there was in

00:29:13.200 the catholic church it's not an excuse but it just is what it is to overblow this as like we were

00:29:20.140 living under clerical fascism and this is the kind of abuse you get and secondly you're just avoiding

00:29:25.800 that question of who's in charge i mean there are secular authorities that are tremendously corrupt

00:29:32.720 that abuse happens systematically uh you know it's like you're not all you're basically saying

00:29:40.300 is that like we we don't want to bear too much responsibility because then we get criticized

00:29:45.940 right you're looking for a gotcha question whereas the question the debate between a radical secular

00:29:53.140 secularist and a catholic integralist is about political power it's not about any of this

00:29:59.840 stuff at all it's about who is the arbiter of authority right in a society and a cat i and again i don't

00:30:07.480 i'm not an expert but a catholic integralist no no catholic integralist who's a serious person

00:30:13.040 would deny that there might be abuse in the church right or something like that we live in a fallen

00:30:19.320 world yeah exactly so this is just a ridiculous statement that he's making anyway um it is okay back

00:30:29.240 to rod it is perfectly reasonable in italics why use italics there and we should also i forgot you're a bad

00:30:35.840 writer his name is ray ray you know rod dreher's name is actually ray ray dreher ray oliver dreher

00:30:43.460 goes by rod okay it is italics perfectly reasonable no more italics why i use italics

00:30:50.720 why use italics perfectly reasonable why are you emphasizing perfectly

00:30:54.760 i don't know maybe you're hysterically bad perfectly reasonable richard what don't you get

00:31:01.060 anyway uh to point to the abuse scandal including the way the secular world collaborated with the

00:31:08.740 church to sweep sex crimes against children under the rug okay what's your point as an argument

00:31:14.100 against integralism a philosophy that would subjugate the state to the power of the clerics

00:31:18.180 i can easily imagine myself around 1998 as a younger catholic full of ardor and ideology finding the

00:31:25.340 clarity and logic of integralism appealing but having spent years writing about the abuse scandal and seeing

00:31:30.840 how terribly terribly clerics can screw things up not because they're clerics because they are human

00:31:36.320 beings in italics and their ordination does not change that there's no way in god's green earth i would

00:31:41.820 stand for an integralist regime well you are not making an argument against integralism and we should

00:31:47.860 note rod dre or ray has ray you know he starts out as a methodist yes becomes a catholic allegedly becomes

00:31:56.060 shocked by this and now becomes orthodox right so oh so he claims that he converted to orthodoxy because

00:32:03.600 of the sex scandal yes because of the the covering up okay again like the the question is who is in

00:32:12.380 charge even as he admits himself in this in this piece like like they are human beings no catholic

00:32:20.060 intercalist i can't believe i'm defending the catholic church but i i must tom plumbing will

00:32:25.740 love you yeah i i i am for i am compelled to defend the catholic church no catholic intercalist believes

00:32:32.760 that pre that clerics are not human and that there will not be abuse or corruption joseph de maestro

00:32:38.640 would not yeah the question is who is in charge and is it a secular authority that is you know a

00:32:45.720 representative democracy or obeys the whims of the people or has a entirely secular aim as some

00:32:51.460 people think the united states government is or is it a religiously defined institution that is the

00:32:57.600 question the question is not whether there are bad human beings or that all human beings are subject to

00:33:03.100 to vice which is obviously true and yes and obviously any christian will say that any catholic

00:33:12.020 even if you're not serious people not even if you're not an integralist yeah uh i think any any

00:33:20.780 christian or any catholic would say hey we're all beholden to sin bad things do happen in the world

00:33:29.720 richard can you believe that when people have power they abuse it yeah whoa whoa wow that's a hot take

00:33:37.780 yeah thanks ray i say i say that mostly as someone who wants the church to flourish in italics thank you

00:33:46.320 for the italics a church that has too much temporal power power imperils itself in a different way from

00:33:52.900 a church that is completely at the mercy of the secular state but imperils itself it doesn't

00:33:58.160 imperils itself it does excuse me no in fact like actually there are there is terrible child abuse

00:34:06.580 in in like totally secular institutions in government that has power i mean and it should

00:34:13.880 be noted this is the question catholic catholic integralism wants to answer like who is in

00:34:19.720 charge what is the authority yeah god okay here's the thing that is very hard back to ray here's the

00:34:27.760 thing that is very hard to get progressives to understand liberalism today is turning illiberal in a

00:34:33.440 way that resembles the papal states of paio nono okay so he's making now he's he's arguing that that

00:34:41.640 the secular state which he wants to be in charge of the church in order for the church to flourish

00:34:47.300 the secular state is becoming illiberal and fascist just like the catholic church this is literally what

00:34:54.540 he is arguing whether he knows it or not many on the left don't see it because they are caught up in

00:34:59.100 the relentless logic of virtue i don't quite even know what that means well i mean i think he means

00:35:06.160 virtue signaling but when you but when he uses virtue there singularly it's like he might he might confuse

00:35:12.620 those of us who've read aristotle as right we know you're referring to the real meaning of virtue

00:35:19.180 which derives from it derives on the same root as virile it means manly so virtue is it that's why again

00:35:27.720 we should take back virtue signaling as like virtue signaling means that you're a man your man's brand

00:35:34.000 you handle pressure and you make tough decisions yeah i'm virtue signaling okay let's step away from

00:35:40.000 the religion aspect for a second okay again you're you're telling and not showing you just do it you

00:35:46.120 don't have to tell us that's what you're doing terrible writer ray have you been watching the

00:35:50.760 progressive mob savaging margaret atwood margaret atwood exclamation mark as a traitor to feminism

00:35:56.000 for having said publicly that a canadian academic punished for sexual harassment was denied due

00:36:01.000 process oh interesting was that actually at a public institution in canada oh my god you mean the

00:36:07.580 secular state is corrupt oh wow who knew the handmaid's tale author was a hero to feminists

00:36:12.740 yesterday but today she's a monster because she deviated ever so slightly from the virtuous

00:36:16.680 the virtuous position in caps so capital v capital p position yeah great writing extremism and the

00:36:25.260 pursuit of progressive virtue is no vice i'm sure the author oh wow what a great literary illusion

00:36:30.160 i'm sure the author of this passage would agree oh god if the spring of popular government

00:36:35.960 this is such a great podcast yeah okay now he's going on some kind of somewhat interesting digression

00:36:44.000 here i'll i'll actually i this is the one part of the article that i kind of liked because it's a

00:36:49.520 critique of autism yeah this this is an interesting yeah actually dare i say this is a neat digression

00:36:56.620 yes if the spring of popular government in times in time of peace is virtue the springs of popular

00:37:04.740 government of revolution are at once virtue and terror virtue without uh without which terror is fatal

00:37:11.520 terror without which virtue is powerless terror is nothing other than justice prompt severe inflexible

00:37:19.320 it is therefore an emanation of virtue it is not so much a special principle as it is a consequence

00:37:25.980 of the general principle of democracy applied to our country's most urgent needs it has been said that

00:37:31.400 terror is the principle of despotic government does your government there therefore resemble despotism

00:37:36.760 yes as the sword that gleams in the hands of the heroes of liberty resembles that uh with which the

00:37:43.520 henchmen of tyranny are armed let the despot governed by terror uh sorry let the despot govern by terror his

00:37:51.760 brutalized subjects let the despot govern by terror his brutalized subjects he is right as a despot

00:37:58.020 subdue by terror the enemies of liberal of liberty uh and you will be right as the founders of the

00:38:03.620 republic the government of the revolution is liberty's despotism against tyranny is force made

00:38:09.700 only to protect crime and is a thunderbolt not designed to strike the heads of the proud that

00:38:15.360 was rope spear by the way okay that is a pretty outlandish couple of paragraphs i have to say

00:38:20.980 uh there's a case to be made that rope spear had asperger's syndrome if true it would give a

00:38:26.020 neurological basis for his fanatical focus on justice as he saw it at the expense of tempering

00:38:31.840 principle especially mercy okay this is where i actually do find redeeming virtues in this piece

00:38:38.920 because it is kind of funny to think of rope spear as the ultimate autist who just he like

00:38:46.000 he kind of was when yeah he like grasped the logic of the revolution and takes it to its full conclusion

00:38:51.740 whereas a more sensible person would be like uh more sensible revolutionary in fact would be like

00:38:58.060 this is why he's superseded by the chad napoleon yes absolutely literally yeah and and also absolutely

00:39:06.320 so right uh who uh who took this is why you listen to this podcast right who who synthesize the

00:39:15.060 acien regime and its pomp and heroism and he with many aspects of the revolution he both he both he

00:39:22.620 both ends the old regime while fulfilling it as well as ends the revolution while fulfilling it right

00:39:29.240 he is actually uh this is a slight digression but you know um kojev uh as well as karl schmidt uh sort of

00:39:38.020 semi-agreed in a correspondence the two of them had that napoleon is the end of conquest in europe

00:39:45.480 that might rub some of our listeners the wrong way but ultimately it is like this is the last real

00:39:51.780 historical moment right in european history everything else is footnotes on napoleon

00:39:57.680 bismarck was taking back small plots on the continent but i i think i i true conquest between

00:40:04.020 i will go i will say this this is controversial but i think it could be argued that all of uh

00:40:12.620 all of european history post napoleon is footnotes on napoleon or jet or or or or jazz riffs on

00:40:20.140 napoleon yeah i like that it's uh resembles the uh famous phrase that all philosophy is footnotes on

00:40:27.140 plato yes you heard it here first folks who said that uh that was uh oh um that was uh

00:40:35.280 was that bertrand russell he said that in his history philosophers yes i believe it was bertrand

00:40:40.500 russell yes you heard it here for all all european history post napoleon is mere footnotes

00:40:46.360 ropesphere this is we're back to ray ropesphere was initially admired as incorruptible because he

00:40:51.600 really wasn't in the revolution business for himself but only for principle yet his relentless purity

00:40:57.140 got a lot of people killed before he finally lost his head

00:41:00.560 okay so you're just talking about fanatics i guess now but why is he somehow we're on the

00:41:09.160 french revolution is he arguing that you need a separation between church and state in order

00:41:15.240 for there to be a balance between the authorities so you need a strong church in in but you need a

00:41:22.900 liberal state in order to balance out the church and vice versa is that what he's saying i don't know

00:41:27.420 to be because that's a kind of interesting argument but not historical but not i don't know

00:41:33.880 whatever prima facie wrong yeah i mean obviously there was there were conflicts between states and the

00:41:43.260 church i mean obviously that's very historical yeah they were not liberal states actually actually rod

00:41:49.320 dreyer's great teacher dante uh wrote an entire book de monarchia about these very uh right these

00:41:57.260 very conflicts right uh i will say this uh the thing about this part of this article it almost feels

00:42:03.920 disconnected from the rest of what we're reading about and what we will read later like what is going

00:42:08.860 on here right well it doesn't it doesn't logically follow it's kind of interesting okay i'll keep

00:42:14.080 reading from ray rope sphere was an extreme historical case obviously but his spirit is

00:42:19.200 present wherever ardent idealists trample on basic humanity for the sake of following principle all

00:42:24.880 law well one here's human to i forget who i'm quoting richard you might remember yeah when i hear the

00:42:31.340 phrase humanity i reach for my gun yeah it's also just such a like it sounds like he's a new atheist or

00:42:38.880 something you know it's like wherever there are fanatics the little guy gets stampeded over something

00:42:45.540 you know it's just some really it's just a bromide you know it's like yeah i get it sure this is the

00:42:53.240 logic behind burning heretics if it is worse to lose your eternal soul than your body and the

00:42:59.400 flourishing okay now we're getting interesting because this is this is worth commenting on okay

00:43:03.200 this is the logic behind burning heretics if it is worse to lose your eternal soul than your body

00:43:09.440 and the flourishing of heresy will lead to people losing their souls then it seems reasonable to kill

00:43:15.640 the heretics before they take uncounted numbers of souls to hell right uh yeah yeah like it's it's hard

00:43:24.680 do you know what i mean like so okay is it do you not agree that it's as a christian do you

00:43:32.980 not agree that it is worse to lose your eternal soul than your body and so if you don't agree with

00:43:38.540 that you're not a christian so ray you're disagreeing with two thousand years of church history right

00:43:44.760 and teaching not even just just act just you're you're saying all of it right they were wrong

00:43:51.860 jesus christ himself lost his body to gain to to gain his soul and that of every or not his soul really

00:44:00.900 but his soul with a capital h maybe but to to save the souls of every save the world yeah

00:44:06.380 dude yeah otherwise we would all be burning in hell we're not for his sacrifice giving over his body

00:44:14.240 like it's the most basic weird christian yeah it's a weird conception it's it's a weird thing for a

00:44:20.840 supposed christian to be concerned about yeah i mean i i again all all he's basically saying is i'm

00:44:29.400 going to be a christian but i'm not going to be fanatical about it well okay congratulations

00:44:35.380 you know you're you you don't have any actual response to your own religion you don't want

00:44:41.900 to take seriously i'm going to be a traditionalist but i'm not going to concern myself yeah the two

00:44:47.120 thousand year tradition right of the church and in his case he's since he's left the catholic church

00:44:52.360 and he's orthodox there are even more innumerable instances of the orthodox church doing the you know

00:44:58.240 and the connection in i mean look you know the the the russians in the orthodox church russians are a

00:45:05.160 little more equal than everyone else i mean you know you know it's a it's a it's a russian centric

00:45:10.600 church much like the catholic church is in a an italian roman centric church just is what it is

00:45:16.620 uh but um the protestants don't really have that i guess maybe america is maybe the church of england

00:45:22.600 it's like maybe the church of england but that anyway lutheranism german yeah german but let's not

00:45:28.400 get into that but um the fact is the the russian orthodox church he claims to be orthodox uh it has a

00:45:34.700 much tighter can integration with integralism dare we say yeah with the state uh then then

00:45:43.760 protestantism i mean it's almost like even catholicism yeah it should be noted the the catholic church

00:45:49.580 went through god knows how many generations of conflict with the holy roman emperor and the pope

00:45:56.300 up until basically in the italians more secular up until napoleon and post napoleon but the russian

00:46:03.380 church was a more integralist polity than any other polity i can think of and right so again he's just an

00:46:12.180 american becoming an orthodox christian and so it's purposes yeah it's like oh i'm orthodox it's more

00:46:18.560 mystical we have icons but it's not serious you know i mean it's just again i'm not again i actually

00:46:26.520 i have met a a few serious orthodox people and i i genuinely respect them and like them um i i've

00:46:35.200 actually in my i have had some experience with ortho the orthodox church in the united states and

00:46:40.380 actually my experiences are entirely positive and very more very serious people uh are there so i i don't

00:46:47.520 have i i don't mean this to be disrespectful but ray is an outlier right he is he's an outlier in

00:46:53.600 terms of people i've met but it's it's just kind of weird it's like larping in in again it's it's like

00:47:00.640 let me take this church which is really genuinely foreign to america you know i mean there is some

00:47:07.400 orthodox christian and christianity in alaska for historical reasons i believe yeah but in but it is

00:47:14.300 foreign and again i'm not against it to the contrary my my sympathies of are probably more with the

00:47:20.960 orthodox church than than any other actually i mean i still am an episcopalian uh by confirmation um and i

00:47:28.360 and but but anyway it's just it's like americans adopting it it's it's like it is this eccentric

00:47:34.060 thing that that doesn't really resonate with my with with society it's it's it's like a weird hobby

00:47:41.660 or something for a lot of them right and again i don't i don't want anyone to take this too far

00:47:46.300 because again if i were to of all the churches that i would criticize in america orthodoxy would

00:47:52.300 clearly be the last one but it's still there's just something false about this guy this this he's he's

00:47:59.920 a southern protestant and he larped as a catholic now he's larping as a christian as an orthodox

00:48:05.460 christian it's just there's something really false about it you can just easily call out his bullshit

00:48:10.800 uh okay the same this is back to ray the same principle is playing out on the left today

00:48:18.120 though thankfully not yet with physical violence actually we're there like it's called antifa anyway

00:48:25.140 progressive militants are thrilled to throw dissidents from their purity project

00:48:28.980 on the metaphorical bonfire torching careers and reputations for the sake of justice there are some

00:48:34.520 non-metaphorical bonfires too but anyway that's that's not that important and if one protests that this

00:48:40.360 or that person was treated unfairly well mistakes were made but maybe it's time that the enemy

00:48:45.940 males whites straights religious believers at all oh he used latin there at alia knows what it feels

00:48:52.980 like to be oppressed that's the rationale i mean sure i agree with that obviously but right obviously

00:48:59.060 we've we've bored in the brunt of that more than more than mr dreyer here yes no one's uh no one's

00:49:06.000 trying to take down the american conservative website i don't think or take away the tax status

00:49:10.920 of whatever it is yeah i have no doubt that there are more than a few progressives who read the

00:49:16.320 controversy over edguardo montara's case and are rightly appalled but who would tomorrow cheer the

00:49:22.760 state for removing a child deemed transgender by experts from the home of his christian parents

00:49:28.700 who disagree okay so he's basically saying that secular liberals would cheer on some out of control

00:49:37.760 secular society that would take away a transgender child from from its or his or her christian i don't

00:49:46.640 think that's wrong right i think he's probably correct there right but again it's like you're the

00:49:55.340 christian you're the one who believes i mean would you want the church to take away a christian child

00:50:02.440 from his demon worshiping parents yeah would you not i mean that's the question you have to ask this

00:50:09.840 question now you're just kind of like now ray is just like bashing crazy leftist which is easy right

00:50:17.220 would you he's not confronting the the yeah as a christian would you want to take away a catholic

00:50:24.840 child that's being raised by demon worshipers why don't you answer that question i certainly would

00:50:31.700 yeah i mean that's i mean what what catholic or christian in their right minds wouldn't um it's

00:50:41.260 you know it's a question of uh of what the hegemony in your society says and what you think truth is

00:50:48.840 and what you think is the best thing i mean if you're an actual christian this child's eternal soul

00:50:55.640 yeah is at stake which is beyond the body than its body yes do you not believe that i'm saying you

00:51:03.760 i'm trying to ray obviously yeah i'm sitting across from hannibal but do you not believe that right do

00:51:08.860 you not believe that the soul is more important than the body do you really not believe that

00:51:13.180 okay um for me the especially here we go the eternal eye yes for me the especially

00:51:22.240 chilling thing about the first things essay was the cold certitude with which its author

00:51:28.320 father romanus cesario uh wrote in defense of taking a six-year-old jewish child away from his

00:51:35.040 parents because the housemaid once baptized him yeah he's certain because he is has faith i think

00:51:41.760 well not just that it's not as i mean it's not he has faith so to speak it's not as if he's a

00:51:48.300 christian it's not as if this priest is advancing some new novel proposition right or some eccentric

00:51:55.820 he's not a rope speaker or some like eccentric trad interpretation that very few you know would agree

00:52:02.780 this is an orthodox an orthodox view of the situation i i don't see a way around that i mean i it's

00:52:10.660 it doesn't seem radical to me no he's viewing it from a christian perspective yeah yeah okay the

00:52:17.560 catholic writer david mills reposted the other day this comment he made a couple years ago

00:52:22.660 because it very much applies in this case and this is a he's posted a facebook comment flannery o'connor

00:52:28.260 said that conviction without experience makes for harshness here we go okay i'm just gonna skip that

00:52:35.300 um okay if the if this is back to ray if applying the law were simple we wouldn't need judges we

00:52:42.500 could let computers do it but a good judge brings wisdom to his ruling he applies justice tempered by

00:52:49.060 mercy sure yes okay no one disagrees with that there are cases like mortara's in which the strict

00:52:58.000 application of the law would bring about a greater injustice than the one the law seeks to address what

00:53:04.060 i mean strict application that that is he's basically saying that the strict application i.e. the

00:53:11.820 taking of this child is a greater injustice no i know and i one i will say it's not as if and

00:53:18.580 again i i'm i'm here i'm i'm defending the papal states it's not as if they're going around to every

00:53:26.260 jewish household no kidnapping children doing this this is clearly a very hard case but one in which

00:53:35.460 the child has been baptized and it's again regardless of how it has happened this is yeah

00:53:41.980 yeah from a schmidtian perspective it is an exceptional case and they are making the decision

00:53:47.040 on the exception this is not they are the arbiters right because they are in charge they are the ones

00:53:52.580 in charge now all ray wants is that secular liberals to be in charge so that they wouldn't

00:53:58.460 have to make these decisions and by his own and by his own admission they're terrible at it too

00:54:03.080 yes but but they're worse maybe but but but the great thing for him about that will be it will be

00:54:08.280 easier for him to critique yes exactly he's like as a catholic it will be easier for me to point fingers

00:54:14.000 at someone else yeah rather than own rather than take responsibility yeah or understand the mantle of

00:54:20.000 power yeah here it is now as a christian i believe the greatest good for all men is that they accept

00:54:25.420 jesus christ and be fully reconciled to god through him do you really yeah again do you actually are you

00:54:31.640 a christian actually i i would actually ask ray are you a christian do you actually believe you're a

00:54:36.340 christian i don't think you are i'm i'm not saying i don't think you have bad motivations uh you're just

00:54:43.240 not serious and if you don't see this as an like orthodox application of christian law yeah but to

00:54:51.160 force that belief on others would be wicked what really okay would it not be mercy yeah so your

00:54:59.180 whole church is wicked and has a wicked history okay go with that pope john paul ii said that the

00:55:04.940 ronald reagan of catholicism right even you could even claim that like even when convincing someone

00:55:13.220 you you you're not using physical force i guess but but even convincing someone is is compelling

00:55:19.880 someone we use that word compelling argument is all evangelization wrong what what right where do you

00:55:26.140 draw that line is it physical force okay so you you're kind of going into a libertarian classical

00:55:32.420 liberal non-aggression principle okay that's fine or even going into an isaiah berlin value pluralism

00:55:38.400 right i get it right but i get it but you're not a christian then like you're holding values other

00:55:45.780 than your supposed christian values as the highest yeah that is the ideal we must follow though

00:55:52.060 obviously christians did not do so in the past oh this i love okay this is i love this argument

00:55:58.300 which is that we are the only true christians now in 2017 or very presentist you keep forgetting what

00:56:04.360 yeah we're we in the current year we're the true christians in 2018 yeah it's unfortunate that all

00:56:10.680 these past people weren't actual christians yeah good luck with that okay um though it cannot be an

00:56:18.060 open-ended proposition we have to accept the rights of others to be wrong really do you you sound like a

00:56:25.680 liberal that is a principle of well liberalism oh he admits it okay and he italicizes it and it's why

00:56:32.720 i personally struggle with what i see as liberalism's eventual demise into authoritarianism

00:56:37.920 okay i'll write more about this in a different post okay so he is a liberal but he laments that

00:56:47.980 liberalism will become authoritarian which i think is kind of an interest that that's that's kind of the

00:56:53.740 place where i agree with him where liberalism evolves into i don't i don't necessarily disagree with

00:57:00.940 that either yeah however it's like what is your what do you believe yeah exactly anyway comma okay

00:57:09.160 did he just write that he might as well you just okay he might as well ray might as well have have

00:57:15.180 written whatever dot dot dot eve tushnet okay but okay i'll read here's ray anyway comma eve tushnet had

00:57:23.820 some interesting things to say about the recent controversy okay uh this is from eve the catholic

00:57:30.760 lesbian the harmony virtuous lesbian virtuous lesbian this harmony with god and neighbors is what at

00:57:37.300 their best catholic leftists call solidarity and catholic rightists call order the longing for harmony and

00:57:43.280 the recognition that it can also emerge okay i'm falling asleep also if is it really the same thing when

00:57:51.060 a catholic leftist says solidarity and a catholic rightist says order there's a reason they're

00:57:55.860 different and there's a reason they yeah they they they under yeah there's a reason there's a

00:58:02.060 difference there all right let's get to the really juicy part which he saved for the end okay so two

00:58:08.980 parts at the end i'm skipping some of this tushnet and i'm getting the final paragraphs okay this is ray

00:58:13.600 again i'd love to read more about that walter percy believed that the persistence excuse me okay i'll start

00:58:20.280 there walker percy believed that the persistence of the jews in the modern world is a sign of god's

00:58:26.500 presence all right let me just read that sentence again walker percy believed that the persistence of

00:58:33.300 the jews in the modern world is a sign of god's presence he's also taking walker percy slightly out

00:58:39.520 of context here okay i will say i've read i i know exactly what he was referring to i like walker percy

00:58:46.620 as a novelist walker percy is just saying that you know from a catholic perspective jews were the

00:58:55.340 former chosen people they still exist in the world but that's a sign that you know god exists you know

00:59:03.560 it's just something that's there not as the jews must eternally exist let's actually let me go back up

00:59:11.980 i'm gonna i i was skipping eve tushnet but she wrote a very unselfaware paragraph above this so let me

00:59:19.340 read that actually so this is eve tushnet from the roman empire to the american the consistent sticking

00:59:24.920 point in every catholic political fantasy is the jews and every reimagining of catholic politics which

00:59:31.140 is not explicitly and uncompromisingly opposed to jew hate will be slowly corroded by it this is another

00:59:37.660 thing you notice as you spend more time in christian history i'm not totally sure why it's always the

00:59:43.560 jews but i suspect it's because judaism is in certain important senses true okay this is wildly

00:59:51.640 heretical yeah i'm not totally sure why it's always the jews it's because you worship their god well and

01:00:00.000 it should also be noted obvious they they crucified your lord i mean yeah it's not as it you know you don't

01:00:06.740 have this problem with the hindus for a variety of reasons but also because it is a completely

01:00:12.540 foreign religion to christianity well also again just their their role in christianity was

01:00:20.380 in rejecting jesus christ right uh well given the choice and not right and not only i mean from a

01:00:29.260 historical theological perspective how could you how could you come to grips as a christian polity or

01:00:36.880 christian people with a people who openly rejected you and scorn you yeah i mean yeah i mean there was

01:00:47.660 a catholic prayer that ended until recently if we we pray for the ultimate salvation of the jews who

01:00:54.760 rejected christ it was this schadenfreude or concern trolling about the jews right we're so sorry we

01:01:01.820 feel so sorry for you jews because you are going to face eternal damnation you are going to wander the

01:01:08.420 earth without salvation without a home because you rejected a christ who was one of your own like it

01:01:15.400 that is why there's this profound ambivalence towards the jews it's not a secret it's not like like no

01:01:22.060 and it's also not also it's not it's not a sign of the presence of god in the world either like

01:01:28.500 for a christian to pity the jews in that way seems totally consistent to deify the jews as an expression

01:01:38.160 like no as many evangelicals do as angelical evangelicals do and it's insane of the the christian

01:01:45.060 zionism and so on jews the the covenant with the jewish people is canceled right like it just is if

01:01:53.820 you don't believe that you're not a christian i can't believe i'm the one you're saying you're

01:01:59.660 giving the theology with richard spencer yeah i mean i don't know what to tell you you you can pity

01:02:07.360 them you can in a way hate them uh you you you can see them as a an alternative path that christians

01:02:15.420 shall never take by rejecting god in the form of jesus christ but also but to not but to not

01:02:23.040 acknowledge their wrongness from a christian perspective is just insane like that's just

01:02:28.740 that that doesn't make any sense yeah percy was a this is back to ray percy was a believing catholic

01:02:35.220 certainly but he also considered the jews among us as a sign perhaps in the mortara case they are a

01:02:41.420 sign of the christian capacity for wisdom justice and mercy or the lack thereof maybe maybe not

01:02:48.860 all right really assertive writing there what i know for sure is that whenever i see real anti-semitism

01:02:56.320 whether it comes from the left to the right i hear the sound of jack boots and i know who and where

01:03:04.160 the enemy is okay that's actually a surprisingly strong ending okay though there is an update

01:03:11.380 actually we should okay update before we talk about that update this lessens the impact of that i should

01:03:16.540 probably clarify that i am not saying that everyone who supports the pope's decision and the mortara case

01:03:22.080 is therefore an anti-semit oh but you are thanks that was a yeah you kind of are there right yeah like

01:03:27.580 you you always cough out like even when you're even you're being a fanatical liberal you're still

01:03:33.280 coughing i have to say this it's it from a purely writing perspective this wasn't the greatest

01:03:40.580 article however i do think that end paragraph was very strong very well worded but by doing that

01:03:48.120 update he lessens the impact of what he just said yeah it's just it so whenever when i see real

01:03:54.700 anti-semitism whether it comes from the left to the right i hear the sound of jack boots and i know who

01:04:00.200 and where the enemy that's a that's okay so your enemy is not good in a value sense but it's a good

01:04:06.380 yes your enemy are the people who oppose the jews that is real anti-semitism okay um ray let me tell

01:04:15.080 you something uh anti-semites are not your enemy as a christian you are a christian you are not a jew

01:04:23.600 i understand why jews oppose anti-semitism you know end quote whether it's of the vulgar ridiculous

01:04:33.020 or resentful kind whether it's of the very serious kind uh whether it's even just a jewish awareness

01:04:40.280 uh i understand why jews would not like that and view that as their enemy i i get it we view anti-whites

01:04:48.920 is our enemy anti-semites are not your enemy yes like or you are a shabbat's goy i mean i'm sorry

01:04:58.340 you're not a real christian and you're not a real christian like it's just it's like no uh you you are

01:05:05.640 so screwed up like where you see anti-christians that is the enemy whether someone is anti-semitic

01:05:12.600 is not primary it's secondary tertiary uh to your friend enemy distinction right and if you can't

01:05:21.680 make that you're gonna be you're gonna be wandering the earth without a home well i mean to to uh you

01:05:30.220 know to raw dreher someone like e michael jones or tom fleming is his enemy is his enemy by that by that

01:05:36.440 i hear the sound of jack yeah by that uh by that stricture he just gave us there um and that's just

01:05:43.680 insane like i what more is there to say there like it's just oh um yeah

01:05:51.200 i don't know if we have anything more to say we we went into uh so much but again it's good to do

01:06:00.200 these things um you know i i i think there's there's there's more to talk about than just

01:06:06.100 deconstructing uh cucks but it's good to get into their head uh i don't think anyone can claim that

01:06:16.280 hannibal and i are are acting in bad faith or we're mischaracterizing anything that rod

01:06:25.160 array has said we are representing his thought process this is how he thinks and this is how

01:06:33.240 his readers think most likely and this is how so many cucks thought leaders think um yeah there it

01:06:42.460 is they're not really christians so you know you might have been upset with us uh for the title of

01:06:50.440 our last podcast but here you go here's a full-throated defense well we're actually the

01:06:58.020 first podcast uh was is christianity for cucks or something of that nature but that was playing on

01:07:03.520 an actual article written in first yes which said christianity is for cucks but we're saying that

01:07:08.860 cucks aren't christian right there you go

01:07:13.060 youúsica

01:07:19.800 you

01:07:23.800 you

01:07:32.160 you

RadixJournal - February 12, 2018

Cucksplaining - Is Rod Dreher Really A Christian？

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