Depeche Modeļ¼ Spirit
Episode Stats
Length
1 hour and 4 minutes
Words per Minute
136.90022
Summary
In this episode, we discuss the Depeche Mode's new album Spirit and the controversial comments made by Michael Malice and Sarah Posner about it, and how the band handled it. We also discuss the controversy surrounding the band's decision to go back into the studio to record a new album, and whether or not the band should have gone back at all.
Transcript
00:01:02.960
Um, I think you can think about Depeche Mode without Spirit.
00:01:05.560
We're going backwards, ignoring the realities, going backwards.
00:01:26.980
Yeah, so I listened to this album in full start to finish, probably when I started to get
00:01:47.460
Um, but I remember, uh, a 2017 Michael Malice tweet.
00:01:55.520
It was actually in response to your controversy, um, with the band.
00:02:01.660
But, uh, he said in the tweet something like, Depeche Mode sucks, but you just can't get
00:02:06.480
You know, fast forward about, uh, two or three years after I had really just sat down and
00:02:13.120
So, um, and, you know, I'm kind of just bored by the album.
00:02:19.660
And even when the lyrics struck my brain more than my heart or, or, or gut, um, it, the music
00:02:31.760
Uh, you know, um, I mean, I'm glad there was no nostalgia on the album, no kind of, you
00:02:39.080
That's kind of going to mimic the, their 1983 or four or five sound or anything.
00:02:48.260
I just, I think it comes down to the, the production and listening to this album.
00:02:53.520
I've listened to this album probably five times in, you know, two or three weeks.
00:03:02.060
And the more I listened to it, I think less, I like it.
00:03:05.720
I mean, there's, there's a couple, but yeah, which is the exact opposite of my Depeche Mode
00:03:13.580
Um, I mean, the more, it's kind of your, yeah, it's the opposite of how you feel about a lot
00:03:20.400
Some even films have gotten better as I've gotten older and I've rewatched, but, uh, in
00:03:26.840
albums as well, speak and spell, for example, um, okay, let's, let's go backwards.
00:03:35.860
So maybe the, the crazy controversy might actually be a good place to start.
00:03:41.720
I'm not surprised that Michael Malice dislikes Depeche Mode.
00:03:46.620
I would be concerned if he actually liked Depeche Mode, but this was going back to a time when
00:03:55.680
it's fair to say that the media was hanging on my every word because I did not, I actually
00:04:06.420
didn't mean to create a controversy or have a response or anything like that.
00:04:11.340
I know, obviously I've been a Depeche Mode fan since the mid eighties.
00:04:18.040
I mean, I, I mentioned the story a couple of weeks ago about overhearing a vinyl recording.
00:04:24.540
I think it's what it was, a vinyl recording of either some great reward or, uh, black celebration
00:04:33.040
And I just knew that I, like I'd found my band and it's weird.
00:04:37.500
Uh, this has stuck with me and in the way that other things haven't.
00:04:45.300
I do agree with many of my off the cuff comments.
00:04:51.860
I don't think all, all, not all of my comments were actually taken into account.
00:04:57.620
I'll, I'll actually look up my, um, what I wrote to Sarah Posner that many, many years
00:05:06.140
I'll, I'll, I'll try to go way back in time here, February, 2017.
00:05:19.620
So let me go through all of this because there's, there's a lot here.
00:05:27.880
Um, so I had a very long conversation with Sarah Posner about Depeche Mode where she's
00:05:34.120
I think older or around the same age and, um, it, she was very interested in it and she
00:05:41.120
kind of was in a way scandalized by what I was saying, but so I was, I walked into CPAC
00:05:50.360
and, uh, the, these controversies have now happened again with Laura Loomer or, or Nick
00:05:57.300
Fuentes, but, um, they, they were definitely happening, happening with, um, me at the time.
00:06:09.440
They were actually talking about how, um, you know, some journalists had called up CPAC
00:06:16.260
almost as like their, you know, their, uh, job is hall monitor.
00:06:28.260
I was planning on asking a question or anything, but there was, there were no questions to be
00:06:34.500
And, um, then a, a kind of like one journalist came up and then, uh, uh, more did and it just
00:06:44.360
became a kind of scrum and it just overwhelmed CPAC.
00:06:49.840
So I was standing there and I was surrounded by like 30 or 40 journalists and then onlookers
00:06:56.000
and, you know, uh, understandably in a way on the part of CPAC, it was distracting and
00:07:07.220
Um, they asked me to leave and I was like, well, okay.
00:07:12.600
I didn't really want to, uh, cause a riot or anything, but that in itself became its
00:07:20.020
But I remember I was just talking with people and was just going off the cuff and I, uh,
00:07:27.180
I, I forgot how it came up, but someone was made, I think, you know, at one point someone
00:07:34.480
And I was like, well, Depeche Mode is the official band of the alt-right.
00:07:39.440
Um, and then by the time I had left CPAC, there was already a statement by Depeche Mode's
00:07:45.200
publicist, you know, denouncing racism, you know, all this kind of stuff.
00:07:54.560
Of course, that's the age of social media where that publicist might very well have just
00:07:58.480
been on Twitter and seen it and got, you know, someone sent it to him and it, it happened.
00:08:03.700
And maybe, maybe it wasn't 15 minutes, but it, you know, within two or three hours.
00:08:08.200
And, um, I wrote this to Sarah Posner and she didn't repeat everything I said, but I'll
00:08:19.360
Um, uh, no, I said, no tongue, uh, was firmly planted in cheek when, uh, she was saying, uh,
00:08:28.740
they've come out publicly against Trump Depeche Mode.
00:08:34.120
Second, uh, there's always been a certain nostalgic synthwave vibe to the alt-right in
00:08:45.740
Um, why do you, I don't think I answered that question.
00:08:52.260
Because Depeche Mode, look, they've been going for three decades since the 1980s.
00:08:58.600
But if you ask a casual, you know, music fan, they would think, they would probably, you
00:09:06.680
know, think about enjoy the silence maybe, but just can't get enough 80s band, et cetera.
00:09:13.820
Um, but the, the question, I guess I didn't fully answer is like, why?
00:09:21.820
It might have something to do with generations.
00:09:24.560
Perhaps my age are, um, are grasping for our childhoods.
00:09:30.320
Younger kids are grasping for an imaginary childhood.
00:09:33.080
There's some, there's something 80s about Trump too.
00:09:36.760
That's clearly the decade that defined him much like Depeche Mode might've been the last
00:09:41.800
moment that there was a recognizable white America or in the, uh, or in the case of DM,
00:09:46.360
white Britain, um, DM originated in a suburb called Basildon.
00:09:53.340
I've never been there, but it's a kind of post-industrial culture-less, soulless suburb.
00:09:58.380
Uh, you can see some of that in the aesthetic Spartan quality of their music.
00:10:02.300
Uh, they were also grasping for some, for something else.
00:10:06.180
The fact that, that DM or Depeche Mode was always most popular in central Europe, the
00:10:11.460
Eastern Bloc and the Soviet Union is interesting in that regard.
00:10:14.860
Uh, DM was bigger in East Germany than in England.
00:10:18.900
Um, that's, I, I think that's all interesting and it actually gels with what we, we've been
00:10:33.060
Um, uh, in terms of the Trump thing and the, the synth wave or fash wave or vapor wave or
00:10:41.460
whatever it's called, I think all of those are accurate points.
00:10:46.100
Um, there was actually an artist, um, uh, what was his name?
00:10:53.740
And he would do a title like the great replacement or Brexit or, uh, you know, traitors will be
00:11:19.680
punished or something, you know, something a little harder core and, but it's just great
00:11:30.380
I mean, a bit generic, I guess, in terms of dance music, but very, very good.
00:11:35.120
And, um, he, he, he jumped on that wave and there is, I, I do think all of those things
00:11:47.600
So you would, you know, I was old for the alt-right.
00:11:50.420
I was looking back to the eighties as my childhood.
00:11:53.440
Uh, so much of politics in general is nostalgia.
00:11:57.220
I think there is a, uh, a bit of nostalgia to fascism, whether it's a nostalgia for, you
00:12:03.360
know, a lost past or the time before the war or ancient Rome or something.
00:12:11.240
Um, I, I think with zoomers, I do think the eighties was this childhood they never had
00:12:16.920
in a very different way than say my generation looked at the sixties because the sixties,
00:12:23.140
you know, I guess it was cool, revolutionary, famous rock bands and music and crazy politics
00:12:31.380
and assassinations of political candidates, et cetera.
00:12:37.460
I mean, I, I don't think we looked back on it and kind of wished we could have been there.
00:12:43.820
We definitely weren't listening to the Beatles.
00:12:50.540
Um, those stones, if you like the stones, that's cool, but it's, that wasn't a band that was
00:12:58.060
But I think we're, again, as I'm sure we talked about, I mean, things have just been so fragmented
00:13:03.960
with the, uh, with the current music industry with, uh, you know, playlists on Spotify being
00:13:14.420
So you're, you're listening to nineties music or, or what have you, you're, you're not
00:13:19.360
listening to something that's just been released.
00:13:26.460
And, um, I, so we're in a different space than I was back, you know, in the say the
00:13:33.780
And I, I think there was a lot of zoomers that probably looked at the eighties as this
00:13:39.500
It's like everyone was successful and you, you were, everyone was, every woman was hot
00:13:45.540
and every man dressed like they were a cast member of Miami vice and doing Coke and Trump
00:13:54.180
You know, I mean, it's just that type of fantasy really got, it really got at the alt right
00:14:03.140
I mean, even, um, uh, muse, which is an interesting band, clearly influenced by Depeche Mode, uh,
00:14:12.440
not as great or as original or as unique as Depeche Mode, but I, I like muse quite a bit.
00:14:18.140
Um, even muse was trying to evoke that in a lot of their albums.
00:14:24.160
They're, they're trying to, you know, evoke the alt right, you know, in general, I think
00:14:29.160
there was a line from, you know, thought contagion about, uh, uh, no time for, uh, no, no time
00:14:37.480
for a revolution, brace yourself for the final solution.
00:14:40.380
It seemed to be an alt right tweet of some kind.
00:15:03.980
Um, I like muse, uh, not, not as I don't, I, again, it, it uses kind of a derivative
00:15:09.640
band, a derivative of Radiohead and DM and a lot of other things, but, but whatever,
00:15:16.060
uh, I, they're good, but, uh, so I think there was that quality that back to the eighties
00:15:31.240
I don't think that that characterizes the current alt right or the dissident right or
00:15:38.420
I think all, a lot of other things, including religious fundamentalism now predominate, but,
00:15:49.700
Uh, I think there, they've also been some quotes of mine of, of like, there's a, there's
00:16:01.440
DM is interesting in the sense that they aren't a typical rock band in terms of lyric and much
00:16:06.100
DM is a band of existential angst, pain, sadism, horror, darkness, and much more.
00:16:11.220
Um, it's not bubblegum pop with front men who sing about love and sugarplum fairies.
00:16:16.120
There was a certain communist, communist aesthetic to their early album, a broken frame, as well
00:16:24.260
And again, they were popular in the Eastern block.
00:16:26.820
Uh, but then there's a bit of a fascist element too.
00:16:31.680
And as with all art, everything is multi-layered, contradictory, and ambivalent.
00:16:36.720
Their latest singles representative of this, it can be read in multiple different ways.
00:16:40.340
Now I was referring to where's the revolution, which we could jump into, but I do think that
00:16:46.620
I mean, a broken frame, which I will, we'll cover in our next, uh, episode, one of the
00:16:54.920
greatest album artworks ever created and clearly evoking communism, uh, with a woman, with a
00:17:05.160
sickle, you know, in, I mean, it's beautiful in itself, but it's, uh, you know, what, what
00:17:13.680
I mean, it, yeah, it's, it is definitely evoking the cold war and, and so they could do that.
00:17:22.340
Um, I think there's a kind of fascist aesthetic to music for the masses, the, uh, you know,
00:17:32.820
Um, I've, I've even heard there was, um, with like pimp and a couple of other, um, albums,
00:17:40.300
there, there was some kind of evocation of the Hitler youth, although I would say aesthetically
00:17:48.860
And I, I'm not just saying that to make excuses.
00:17:52.480
There was just a, you know, punk rock evoked Nazism.
00:17:55.500
There, there was a, for various reasons, um, probably to shove it up the ass of the upper
00:18:01.700
class or whatever, mostly, but there's, there's some kind of evoke evocation of, of danger
00:18:07.520
and hardness and toughness, and also a, you know, assertion of the, the mass production,
00:18:20.360
They're, they're sampling, they're using only sense synthesizers, et cetera.
00:18:25.020
So it, you know, it's, it's vague and ambiguous.
00:18:29.040
And I think that was, that was quoted from Sarah Posner of like, there's an ambiguity to,
00:18:34.460
Um, and I'm sure some people would laugh at that or, uh, say that I'm, I'm projecting
00:18:53.880
You know, like in terms of day-to-day politics, what's your point?
00:18:58.420
Uh, there's some things that are bigger than just some candidate.
00:19:05.840
And I remember later on they were interviewed in, I think by some like Scandinavian network
00:19:14.540
But now that, that word has a different connotation in Britain.
00:19:19.520
Although he's an American at pretty much at this point.
00:19:22.060
So I'm maybe anyway, he was digging deep for that insult.
00:19:26.100
Uh, but then he was like, but you know, you have to understand he's a very intelligent and
00:19:33.980
So going a little more political is, is also a risk.
00:19:40.860
I mean, the, the thing is that you, you, you've had recently, you've, you've had a
00:19:46.740
fan that, that you didn't appreciate, uh, the, the leader of the alt-right, uh, American
00:19:51.720
alt-right and he's, he, he, he claimed that you were his, his number one, their number
00:20:26.560
He's like, you know, he's highly educated, you know, he's.
00:20:31.980
I didn't say his name really, but he's not here to defend himself.
00:20:34.700
You know, um, they're the most dangerous kind of like idiots, aren't they?
00:20:46.440
I've been asked about this later on and they're like, Oh, are you so devastated?
00:20:50.520
Or it's like, look, I'm not, um, first off they could call me, you know, Satan himself and
00:20:58.820
I would still like their music and appreciate them.
00:21:02.080
You know, like they can hate the, you know, they just doesn't change anything.
00:21:06.680
Um, secondly, the insult was actually a little multi-layered and, and so on.
00:21:13.740
Um, but thirdly, I don't know, the whole thing is just kind of fun, uh, fun story from that
00:21:22.780
So I was referring to, uh, where's the revolution when I said their latest single could be
00:21:33.240
And well, first off, before I jump into this, do you have any thoughts on that?
00:21:37.440
Were you aware of this or did you have any thoughts on this or?
00:21:44.600
So I think the, uh, you had asked earlier why you think the, um, uh, alt-right was synonymous
00:21:53.740
I just think because synth wave, synth pop, uh, it's just weird.
00:22:03.500
Frogs and shit like that on Twitter are, are weird.
00:22:08.260
And also synth pop itself is a pretty white genre of music.
00:22:13.040
I mean, you have, uh, rock and roll, which, you know, you, that's pretty obvious that that
00:22:21.640
It definitely has, at the very least, African-American influences, blues influences, unquestionably.
00:22:28.220
Um, but, you know, and just to, I don't mean to get like too esoteric here or, or, or kind
00:22:36.980
of, um, engage in I see Jesus and sort of exit Jesus.
00:22:40.720
But I think a lot of Martin's chords, especially the fact that he goes from the one minor to
00:22:46.040
the three minor, like in, um, enjoy the silence, for example, going to C minor to E flat minor,
00:22:52.340
that kind of, that is not, that is like the opposite of blues in a, in a strange way.
00:23:03.060
So if I think of blues, I think of either minor or major blues, it's the flatted third,
00:23:09.860
And you can, uh, I mean, you can hear that, um, I'm trying to think of a good blues song.
00:23:16.500
I mean, um, I don't really listen to that much blues, but, uh, anything by like, you
00:23:22.060
know, Chuck Berry, uh, any of these Led Zeppelin, you can hear a lot of those.
00:23:28.740
It's usually accompanied by like a triplet rhythm, you know?
00:23:31.000
And I think Martin's chord progressions, a lot of them, especially when they use that
00:23:36.940
one minor to the third minor, whether it's a major or minor third, so for example, going
00:23:44.500
from, uh, a to a minor to C minor or a minor to C sharp minor, um, because he'll do stuff
00:23:55.460
The all right was certainly playing in a different key, um, politically.
00:24:01.000
Um, and I mean, it's, I'm not saying, oh, Depeche Mode only employs white chords because
00:24:09.880
they do have a lot of blues influences, but even their blues influences don't until relatively
00:24:16.140
recently, I think until about 10 years ago with Delta Machine.
00:24:19.080
If you take a song, for example, like a day trip or by the Beatles that uses ban, that is
00:24:28.520
a, that's a completely blues melody because it takes, it goes E to G to G sharp that playing
00:24:34.340
with that flatted third, for example, the flatted and the, um, major third, that's a common
00:24:40.840
You see that, um, a lot, obviously there's a dominant seventh, that flatted seventh, but
00:24:47.520
I think that Depeche Mode generally stays away from that.
00:24:50.560
And it's very minor and minor chords evoke like a seriousness and especially a lot of Martin songs
00:25:01.680
Like in other words, the lyrics sound like the music.
00:25:09.600
I like what you're saying, you know, you, you'd mentioned, uh, gen Xers and zoomers kind
00:25:14.880
of looking at, uh, gen X or, um, uh, childhoods or whatever growing up in the eight or yeah,
00:25:28.400
Cause speaking as a millennial, I was, my music was kind of right out of high school.
00:25:35.880
And I think the millennials in a lot of ways are like, uh, they have a lot of, um, boomer
00:25:43.000
I mean, we are a generation of spoiled brats and I think where the zoomer and Xer kind
00:25:47.200
of connection is, uh, just to be very general about it, there's kind of an apathy to both.
00:25:54.000
I mean, I think a lot of zoomers are apathetic and maybe the, the generation I thought, you
00:26:01.360
know, well, I think also kind of cynical and negative and almost nihilistic.
00:26:06.400
I, I, I would say that millennials and, and, and boomers do, do have a weird connection
00:26:16.080
to themselves, to each other, rather father and son.
00:26:23.660
I mean, my, my parents are boomers and I'm, I'm, but I'm, I'm a, uh, young gen Xer born in
00:26:30.740
1978, uh, but almost a millennial, but, um, I identify as gen X, uh, but yeah, more cynical.
00:26:41.340
I, there, there is something, uh, you know, if we look at zoomers right now is just kind
00:26:47.360
of desperate and depressed and sexless and on the internet and nihilistic and like communist
00:26:54.220
or Nazis or whatever, uh, that that's probably not how I would describe millennials.
00:27:00.320
They, they seem to be kind of naive and happy and, uh, you know, like their greatest political
00:27:08.360
thinker is someone like Matthew Iglesias or something.
00:27:12.160
And the films that they responded to and that are there, that are very meaningful to them
00:27:18.660
and that they love are like the Marvel cinematic universe or something, you know, there, there's
00:27:23.840
just something I have to say really contemptible about them.
00:27:37.940
And, and you can make fun of gen Xers all you want.
00:27:50.420
Uh, although there's no redemption with this Messiah.
00:27:59.320
I mean, it's, but the, you know, when you're negative, you're at, you're able to be insightful
00:28:05.300
and critical and you're unhappy and dissatisfied.
00:28:08.720
I think there's some positive things to gen X zoomers.
00:28:12.360
I mean, I hope there can be some positive things, but I, I do think zoomers are, um, just
00:28:17.760
do the nature of the world, uh, beyond their control.
00:28:21.760
They're pretty, uh, whacked out, but yeah, but yeah, I don't know.
00:28:28.020
I don't know if the point was, was the kind of like eighties as musical utopia that we went
00:28:38.220
Um, yeah, I mean, just personally, if you go like 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s, et cetera, I think
00:28:46.520
it, it was in a lot of ways due to the, uh, diversity you could have, you know, so, so
00:28:53.680
many different, uh, sounds and groups like metalheads, punks with new waivers, what, you
00:29:02.840
Um, but, uh, the thing I was going to say about, uh, Depeche Mode's, uh, aesthetics is,
00:29:09.400
I mean, their creative director, Martin Adkins said, I don't want to sound like a neo-Nazi,
00:29:15.640
but we used to admire the way that it's just a great way to, it's always, always a good
00:29:25.020
Well, I'm not racist, but, but so he said, he said, um, that they admired the, the way
00:29:33.540
that the Nazi flags would hang as big banners over the buildings and, um, in Germany.
00:29:41.200
And that is pretty obviously, I mean, look at Black Celebration as a cover.
00:29:53.240
There are these kind of like strange symbols, but I mean, he basically kind of gave that
00:29:59.380
They, and he had also admitted, yeah, we're inspired by futurists, fascists, and communists,
00:30:05.740
basically, uh, as far as their artwork is concerned.
00:30:09.460
Um, yeah, obviously we, we can't say that, oh, they're ergo Depeche Mode.
00:30:14.100
It's, you know, a, you know, a Hitlerian or something.
00:30:17.560
Presumably they, they kind of listened to what Martin was trying to write about at the
00:30:22.520
time and, uh, applied their own ideas to that, which is why you get this kind of socialist
00:30:27.320
look to, to that early artwork that goes around construction time again in the singles.
00:30:32.580
The kind of political look of the things was more fashion than specific statement.
00:30:37.960
If you look back, you'll see a lot of those kind of elements creeping in, you know, of, um,
00:30:43.120
both fascist and communistic kind of iconography.
00:30:49.940
And I think that nobody had really plundered it to market an everyday product like a record.
00:31:00.160
I mean, the, the, the baby boom itself was a long generation, but they, they spoke to
00:31:07.860
Gen Xers in terms of, um, at least eventually in terms of their fans, people were buying their
00:31:14.720
albums and, you know, I think this album itself is a kind of dark boomer.
00:31:23.080
Like if there's a politics, it's, it's dark boomerism and it's very 2016.
00:31:40.060
I mean, granted, it's a pretty two dimensional song, but it's much better than Richmond, uh,
00:31:59.040
He's walking around in worn out shoes with nothing to lose.
00:32:12.320
Fail is just so like nihilistic and dark and almost like teenage angsty that I like it.
00:32:25.120
I, I think there's some, actually some really good, some good, if not great tracks.
00:32:31.620
And I think the first, it's actually the, the a side of, of the album, the first four songs,
00:32:41.220
And I, and, and I think purposefully so, and they are political and what exactly the politics
00:32:59.940
I mean, it's in there at even one point, uh, they say, go, we're going backwards to a caveman
00:33:08.040
Um, that that's almost a little too on the nose, but you, you get what they're saying to say
00:33:15.360
They, they, they almost sound like a, uh, you know, I don't know the Huffington post
00:33:19.360
circa 2014 or something, but, um, I understand what you're saying that we're armed with new
00:33:26.460
technology, but we're going backwards in terms of our mentality.
00:33:31.180
And, uh, we can track it all with satellites, see it all in plain sight, watch men die in
00:33:41.640
We can track it all with satellites, see it all in plain sight, watch men die in real
00:33:56.480
time, but we have nothing inside, we feel nothing inside.
00:34:05.640
Oh, my sense with this is that it, you know, these, these were produced, recorded, let's
00:34:22.080
Um, they came out, I think in the fall of 2016 and then they, they toured in 2017.
00:34:27.520
I think this is something they've been thinking about for longer than that.
00:34:31.040
Um, it takes a little bit of time to write a song or at least a good one.
00:34:36.900
And, uh, I, I get a very strong terror war vibe actually from those songs of we have satellites
00:34:48.820
everywhere and we're drone striking someone, or maybe even those images that were leaked
00:34:55.680
by Julian Assange showing these, uh, you know, machine gunning of various, you know, potential
00:35:04.360
terrorist Arabs, um, with no remorse and so on there, there was something cold and brutal,
00:35:18.740
And I, I, I, I think they, they might be kind of feeling the wave of Trump and seeing Trump
00:35:28.640
And in that sense, I think they had foresight, but I, I think there's also something, it's
00:35:35.400
a deeper commentary of, uh, the Bush era that really flowed into the Obama era.
00:35:45.740
So Obama did, you know, blew his wad and, uh, Libya and other things.
00:35:52.340
I mean, there was a, it was certainly not as dramatic as the Bush era, but, you know, Obama
00:35:58.640
was awarded the peace prize before he came into office as a, as an end to that era.
00:36:06.560
And I, I, I think that they're, they're getting at that aspect.
00:36:12.820
They're getting at the fact that we're becoming more technological, more interconnected, more
00:36:18.660
But, you know, along with that, there's almost the, the kind of loss of those, I guess you
00:36:25.320
could say, you know, boomer ideals of, uh, of democracy and humanism, et cetera.
00:36:31.160
And we're, we are becoming more caveman like as, as cringe as that sentiment is.
00:36:41.480
I think that, um, actually that song is, uh, I mean, from the lyrics, I was kind of getting
00:36:52.700
Like they, like they wrote the song together kind of vibes.
00:36:55.220
And I mean, David Skirbina in the sense that they're talking about like, what are we doing
00:37:03.460
Uh, and, and I won't go so far as to say Luddite, but I definitely, it's a tech skeptic
00:37:11.480
Um, you know, technology has made communication much easier and much worse.
00:37:19.720
Um, I, I think the, um, the watchmen die in real time, but we have nothing inside.
00:37:26.340
I mean, what that gets at, you know, porn and violence that we see today with, you
00:37:36.220
Um, and it's kind of like Gore is asking like, what is this good for?
00:37:41.720
Um, and there is an irony to that because, you know, this technology, uh, or not this particular
00:37:48.940
technology, but technology in general is how they became, you know, who they are.
00:37:53.480
So it's kind of like coming full circle, um, on, on them.
00:37:58.960
Um, but yeah, it's, I, I think that it's a reactionary.
00:38:05.460
I, I feel like you had said that about, um, the last, uh, memento Mori, but you know, maybe
00:38:14.340
it's just like burned into my head now, but I feel like a lot of these lyrics, they relate
00:38:19.160
more with the disgruntled 2015, 16, uh, Trump voter.
00:38:26.240
Then, then they do to your bi-coastal, um, uh, shitlib.
00:38:32.340
I mean, I, I really don't think, you know, uh, even talking about poor man, okay, you
00:38:39.480
could kind of, maybe you want to say that it's a communistic song or something, but
00:38:52.600
There's yeah, but there's nothing that Trump voter wouldn't disagree with you.
00:38:57.060
I mean, um, so I can't help, but see, I almost feel like liberals were kind of hoodwinked
00:39:06.740
by this album because it got many good reviews from liberals.
00:39:19.440
But I think whether Martin knows it or not, I mean, he's there, there are kind of
00:39:27.040
the small reactionary that, that lives inside him is kind of coming out.
00:39:31.840
I mean, you got to think about too, that he's, well, at this time he would have been
00:39:35.420
in his, uh, what mid fifties, something like that.
00:39:38.360
And he's like 63, you know, so, or two anyway, the point being that he's older, he's, uh, kind
00:39:47.440
of like can't keep up with the whippersnappers and their iPhones kind of thing.
00:39:52.820
And I'm not saying that, um, disparagingly, like, I think that's a serious, uh, thing
00:40:01.040
There, there is this kind of sense of beating down.
00:40:03.400
I mean, I, I think there are multiple layers to it and that's why it's good.
00:40:08.360
I remember attending this concert in 2017 and they played, where's the revolution?
00:40:13.340
And the guy who, one of the, I went with two friends and one of them said, he's like, wow,
00:40:56.740
Back of revolution and you're getting pissed on, you're getting stomped on and nothing's
00:41:03.060
And granted, there is something self-righteous about, you know, you're letting me down or
00:41:09.660
Um, but, and I, and I almost don't like that sentiment and that's almost as a kind of
00:41:17.760
But, um, I, I think it's, it's also kind of like everything, all of it can be read in
00:41:26.420
I mean, you could imagine this as almost like the Trump voter, like the train is coming.
00:41:52.520
It was called the Trump train for, for kind of inexplicable, inexplicable reasons.
00:42:18.640
I mean, it's just, you know, jump on the Trump train.
00:42:20.780
It's like this moving thing beyond you that you're getting on.
00:42:25.740
You're, you're kind of losing your own personality in a way or, or, or agency, at least you're,
00:42:30.940
you're jumping on this train that's moving, whether you like it or not.
00:42:34.480
And I, I think that resonated maybe unintentionally, perhaps maybe intentionally, but it resonated
00:42:42.760
Um, but you've been pushed around, you've been lied to, you've been fed truths.
00:42:50.820
Your government, your countries, your patriotic, you patriotic junkies.
00:42:54.900
All of that could kind of those, all of those things kind of bite each way.
00:43:00.300
And they're kind of contradictory, you know, like, are you trapped by your religion?
00:43:09.820
It's, uh, but you could kind of read it in different ways.
00:43:12.940
But I think what he's getting at is like a general sentiment that there is no revolution.
00:43:21.520
But then there's this, like, the train is coming.
00:43:24.320
Even the train evokes, I don't know, maybe even like Bolshevik revolution or something,
00:43:29.700
um, just something older, something from the 20th century.
00:43:37.360
But it's ultimately expressing this just lack of movement.
00:43:44.440
I mean, you know, Trump's rise in popularity coincided with the end of the terror war, uh, living standards flatlining, life expectancy declining, and, uh, fatalities due to drug use increasing.
00:44:06.120
And that was drug use of the, the opioids, the, not, not, you know, cool 80s cocaine or even smoking weed, but stuff that is just allowing you to escape the pain and it's going to eventually kill you.
00:44:26.400
The get on board, get on board gives me, uh, it reminds me of my cosmos is mine when it goes to bed.
00:44:37.080
Um, but what's funny is that, you know, I, I, I've said this before for Martin's songwriting, there's, he's really good at ambiguity.
00:44:47.720
You kind of know what it's about, but you don't.
00:44:53.280
Um, but this on my first interpretation of it was like, okay, this is just basically a political, uh, social conscious album.
00:45:03.900
Um, but there is still ambiguity because, you know, as we've said, who is he talking about?
00:45:10.040
Is he speaking for, you know, he could be speaking for somebody, uh, in, in London or somebody in the north of England in a deindustrialized, uh, you know, suburb or something like that.
00:45:23.980
Or for an American in the Midwest or, or the South, the, the music video for this, which I, you know, we can't put too much stock into it.
00:45:33.640
But, um, I just think that aesthetically with the, uh, Karl Marx's kind of thing was, it was, it was boomery, you know, to be honest, I don't think it was a very creative, uh, choice by Anton.
00:45:49.100
Um, but, you know, there still is a lot of inwardness, uh, kind of self-flagellation, uh, that you get in a lot of, well, that you could interpret in a lot of Martin songs.
00:46:02.060
Um, I think if you, the, the song, the worst crime, I mean, I can kind of take it in a number of different ways.
00:46:09.400
I don't know what you think about it, but I, it sounds to me like it's about like killing democracy or something.
00:46:17.500
And I'm thinking Brexit because they were pretty openly anti-Brexit and, you know, obviously exoterically anti-Trump.
00:46:30.380
That might've inspired it, but I think it, it kind of, it's deeper.
00:46:35.460
It's, it's about, I mean, I, I think it goes also to going backwards of the caveman mentality, which is a bit of a clanging lyric, but I, it is getting at what they're talking about.
00:46:50.580
And it's this, you know, it's this kind of collective discussion of committing these crimes.
00:46:57.100
I mean, if we, if we take it to where we are right now, um, you know, and let's not even talk about like the, the, the, the salacious, unbelievably violent and horrific crimes that, you know, the Hamas dead.
00:47:18.560
I mean, they're in a different situation than the Israelis are.
00:47:24.780
And I think in a way like less should be expected of them morally and politically, but, um, you know, Israel has had a lot of time to deal with this issue.
00:47:38.460
They, they, that is the, you know, the, the, the apartheid state, the conflict, et cetera, et cetera.
00:47:46.040
They've had a long time to deal with it and they've, they've been a very rich place as well.
00:47:53.900
And they're shutting off the water and blocking people in Gaza, they're bombing apartment buildings.
00:48:04.240
I mean, they are about to do the kind of lynching, you know, of, you know, in a small town version of, of, you know, this guy guilty or not, let's, uh, let's be judge and jury and destroy him.
00:48:21.720
And it's like, he's, it's about contemplating that collective act of fury, you could say, or scapegoating or, or something like that.
00:49:36.080
I think it fits well with the first four songs, which make up a little kind of, I don't know, opera or something.
00:49:50.860
They, they make up four different perspectives on this issue of where they are right now, or where we are right now.
00:49:57.900
So, yeah, I mean, the, the song kind of gave me, there's a line, it talks about, um, apathetic hesitation.
00:50:08.940
Like, we're all charged with treason and definitely gets to a, like a collective guilt kind of, um, thing.
00:50:17.140
Like blame misinformation, misguided leaders, apathetic hesitation, uneducated readers.
00:50:25.100
For whatever reason, we now find ourselves in this, we are all charged with treason.
00:50:33.980
So it's, it kind of, you can say this, like to go back to where we are right now.
00:50:41.080
Yeah, of course, there's tons of misinformation and lies and fog of war stuff.
00:50:46.360
But, you know, you're ultimately going to be guilty of doing this act.
00:50:55.380
You're, you're ultimately going to be guilty of destroying Gaza.
00:51:00.040
Like you're going to, you're going to commit the worst crime.
00:51:03.680
And, um, yeah, that's what I think it's, I think that mentality is what I, I think it's about.
00:51:08.800
And I think what we're seeing now resonates with it, but go on.
00:51:11.400
I think I cut you off where you were about to say something.
00:51:13.380
I was just going to say when, when I heard we're all charged with treason and kind of
00:51:17.760
this apathetic hesitation, I just, it triggered a memory from the, uh, scene in Mississippi
00:51:24.520
burning when like Gene Hackman and, uh, goes Gene Hackman and Willem Dafoe are these two FBI
00:51:32.960
And they go to this, uh, town in the South and it's, they were covering up the, the murder
00:51:39.020
of, uh, three civil rights, uh, workers and the mayor of the town, uh, hangs himself.
00:51:46.720
And Gene Hackman says, well, why did he, he wasn't even guilty.
00:51:52.280
And I remember Willem Dafoe says anyone who sits idly by during all this is guilty.
00:51:57.540
And that kind of like, we don't sleep until all the evil in the world is gone.
00:52:02.140
I just think, I got like a Puritan kind of vibe from that, you know, just from the, we're
00:52:08.380
all charged with treason, apathetic hesitation.
00:52:13.140
And then scum is about committing the worst crime.
00:52:16.060
Cause it's about, it's about dehumanizing the enemy.
00:52:19.140
Hey scum, hey scum, what have you ever done for anyone?
00:52:21.920
Hey scum, hey scum, what have you ever done for anyone?
00:52:30.420
Hey scum, hey scum, what are you gonna do when you're gonna curse?
00:52:36.480
I'm calling, and you're falling, and there's nowhere left to run.
00:52:41.280
And you're weeping, and I'm sleeping, and you're begging for your gun.
00:52:58.520
It's basically, like it, I, it's not a really pleasant song.
00:53:03.500
Like it's not one that I would just go like listen to for fun or something, but because
00:53:09.380
It's, it's trying to get at that mentality of scapegoating someone, destroying someone.
00:53:17.100
And you have to turn him into scum, and just pull the trigger.
00:53:21.620
Yeah, I will say that is probably my least favorite track, Scum, on the, on the album.
00:53:29.020
Just because I, it's, it was just, I'm trying not to dwell too much on the production
00:53:35.820
and the sound, but I just don't think the, the production served the songs.
00:53:42.180
But anyway, yeah, we can, we can move on to, uh, I enjoyed, um, I, you know, I, maybe
00:53:51.820
I'm skipping ahead here, but I think, you know, my favorite song is, uh, Cover Me, which
00:53:59.380
Um, there is, I think that is, and that was one of the singles.
00:54:03.260
I love the, like, ambient kind of percussion with the, the snares that sound like kind
00:54:08.900
of spacey, um, I'm not sure exactly what it's about.
00:54:12.480
I was kind of getting Pink Floyd vibes from, like, the atmosphere with, you kind of get
00:54:17.280
this kind of lap guitar, you know, and, and very, very, uh, echoey and a lot of delay
00:54:27.160
and reverb on it, which, uh, I appreciate it just from a production aspect.
00:55:05.700
It was less, it was more listenable, I think, than the other songs. Uh, it wasn't anything
00:55:23.640
too astounding lyrically, but, uh, I think that maybe that's why this album in general
00:55:28.660
had to capture me musically first and I don't think it really did. I don't know if you have
00:55:36.460
Yeah. I liked that, that one as well. Uh, a lot of the songs kind of roll into one another. I mean, I,
00:55:43.300
I kind of get the hate for this album and I like moment, momento Mori more. It's overall just a better
00:55:50.900
album. It's, um, more interesting. It's like, I would want to return to it, but I guess I would defend this album.
00:55:58.980
Maybe in some ways due to my little personal history with it, but I like it. I, I think it's cool. I think it's getting at interesting sentiments and,
00:56:09.620
you know, where's the revolution, not one of their greatest, like anthem singles, but it's up there.
00:56:17.840
You know, it's, it's in, I think it's still performed. I think they're performing it live this year, aren't they?
00:56:25.520
Uh, I was actually going to mention that they're not, um, well, I, I, at least on the set list.
00:56:32.840
What was the set list that you said? Cause I didn't see their first leg of their tour.
00:56:37.000
It was, I mean, if you want, I can run through them all real quick, but, um, uh, my cosmos is mine
00:56:45.220
wagging tongue, walking in my shoes. It's no good. Sister of night. I was kind of surprised by that
00:56:51.320
one in your room. Everything counts. Precious speak to me. A question of lust soul with me ghosts.
00:57:01.020
Again, I feel you, a pain that I'm used to world in my eyes wrong, which was probably my least
00:57:08.860
favorite. Um, that was played stripped John, the revelator enjoy the silence. And the, and the
00:57:17.280
encore was waiting for the night, which was beautiful. Just can't get enough. Never let me
00:57:24.040
down. And they ended it with personal Jesus, but not a single spirit song. And I think that's kind
00:57:31.960
of telling also, I want to say about have they ever performed an exciter song outside of the exciter
00:57:39.020
tour? Oh, that, so that sounds like your least favorite album. It was, I'm kind of ready to
00:57:47.360
revisit it though, but it was the one where I was like, Oh, well, everyone has a bad album.
00:57:54.340
Um, yeah, uh, there, no, there is no, uh, no, there is no exciter song on, on their most recent
00:58:02.740
tour. Um, but another thing, just speaking of them playing live, I don't know how you feel about
00:58:09.040
this guy, but, uh, Christian Eigner, the, uh, drummer that plays with them live. And he's helped
00:58:15.340
Dave write a few songs, um, including, uh, including the one on here, Poison Heart. But, um,
00:58:22.780
I thought, you know, he was totally overplaying, uh, on their, I mean, really since he took over
00:58:33.240
in 1998, uh, for the live performances, I thought all these, this is an electronic band. Yes.
00:58:40.600
Drums are suited for some of the songs, especially the kind of later ones. Yeah.
00:58:45.060
Call me an Alan fan boy, but, uh, Alan's drumming though. He's not a trained drummer in the same
00:58:50.080
way that Eigner is. It was just better. Uh, it's, it suited the mood better. Uh, and it wasn't
00:58:55.300
overplayed, but, um, I don't know how, how you feel about them live. I think they're great. I think
00:59:01.240
they're one of the best bands I've ever seen live, if not the best. Um, but I just thought,
00:59:07.960
and he did not, I want to mention that Eigner did not overplay. Um, so they've been listening
00:59:14.380
to my, uh, my prayers or reading my mind or something because Eigner did not really over
00:59:19.900
overplay. Um, and this last concert that I saw.
00:59:25.040
Yeah. Um, that's interesting. He might've gotten some notes. You weren't the only one who thought
00:59:30.800
that. Uh, there's another guy I remember cause I've, I've been to a number of their tours
00:59:36.600
since, um, uh, I guess, uh, sound of the universe as well. I mean, there's a guy who looks like
00:59:45.220
he has, I don't know, Arabian or, or, uh, Persian background. She's playing synth.
00:59:51.700
That might be him. Yeah. I guess he's the Italian. Yeah. I I'm assuming. Yeah. Yeah. Pretty dark guy,
00:59:59.560
but yeah. Um, he actually, he can sing very well himself and play very well. And so I heard him do
01:00:06.800
a cover of 10 CCs. I'm not in love. And it was actually really good. Um, but yeah, as far as I
01:00:13.740
understand, he'll, he, he's just mostly a live musician, uh, for them. I have not seen him,
01:00:22.380
uh, or, I mean, he's, he's listed on some songs with Dave, uh, like helping him out and I'm sure.
01:00:30.460
But, um, which actually in the one that he did help him out and poison heart, I gotta imagine that's
01:00:36.800
his influence. Cause these chords are so big, like, um, in poison heart with it.
01:00:43.740
It's got the guitar and the two and the four. Um, and, uh, it's got this G sharp minor to E minor major
01:00:55.320
These are not kind of typical Depeche mode chords. I mean, Depeche mode chords are, uh,
01:01:24.680
simple, but bold, you know, I'm not, I'm not saying I'm not putting them down, but, um,
01:01:30.200
I was just intrigued by those chords. There's not a lot of seventh and ninth and, you know,
01:01:38.120
Well, let's, let's go back to the, to, to bring it to a close. Um,
01:01:45.220
because we'll, we'll do a kind of ongoing ranking of the albums. Where, where is this for you?
01:02:00.040
Don't mean to disappoint you, Richard, but yeah, it's, it's my least favorite.
01:02:10.900
When we get to sounds of the universe, I'll know maybe those, I think those two are neck
01:02:18.000
and neck. I would probably say like on a good day, it's like a five out of 10 for me.
01:02:23.820
I'm, I'm yeah, I, they're, you know, probably my second favorite band of all time, but I'm
01:02:36.580
Um, it's not, it's not quite at the bottom for me.
01:02:43.560
I think you might be also giving like a broken frame and so on more credit for the reasons
01:02:50.340
that I mentioned earlier, that it's just a, an essential album and you kind of can't do
01:02:55.560
Yeah. And I do realize like they set the bar so damn high with, you know, these other
01:03:01.980
classic albums, but you know, that, that's fine. It is what it is.
01:03:26.180
You are your religion, your government, your countries, you patriotic junkies.