RadixJournal - Enemy of the State

00:00:00.000 you know how he got these scars?

00:00:02.020 Yeah.

00:00:02.780 But the backstory keeps changing, and so there is no backstory.

00:00:06.560 I mean, who knows how he got those scars?

00:00:08.300 I think there's this common thing in Hollywood movies,

00:00:12.240 but probably art of all sorts of genres,

00:00:15.800 where we want the villain to have this grotesque backstory,

00:00:20.380 and that kind of explains it.

00:00:21.880 It's like, oh, he was abused as a child or something like that.

00:00:25.160 But I always find that actually to be a little bit cheap.

00:00:29.040 Yes, I agree.

00:00:30.360 But one of the interesting things about the Joker

00:00:33.080 is that he has no backstory, that no one knows who he is.

00:00:37.600 And so he is kind of pure in his way.

00:00:42.800 He lies in that scene where he's talking with Harvey Dent,

00:00:47.260 and he says, you all are schemers.

00:00:50.760 Gordon's a schemer.

00:00:52.720 The mob has their schemes.

00:00:54.640 You have their schemes.

00:00:55.500 Look where that got you.

00:00:56.160 And he's obviously being ridiculous on one level,

00:01:00.320 because he is the most masterful schemer of all time.

00:01:05.160 I mean, his schemes have like three layers of, you know,

00:01:08.920 you solve the first riddle, then there's this new one that, you know,

00:01:13.900 he wants you to solve the first riddle,

00:01:15.840 but there's another element to it.

00:01:17.260 And then there's a whole other element to it.

00:01:18.800 And, you know, he's plans within plans.

00:01:20.780 He's amazing.

00:01:22.200 But he is kind of, so he's being a little bit ridiculous

00:01:25.460 or maybe lying to himself to a degree,

00:01:28.540 but he is being kind of like pure and honest,

00:01:31.320 where he just acts and he just has a scheme.

00:01:34.120 Like, he wants to bring about chaos.

00:01:37.000 He wants to turn society, he wants to overturn society

00:01:40.820 and make everyone like him, make everyone, you know,

00:01:43.980 murderous and grasping and sick and twisted,

00:01:50.660 but not for any reason, certainly not for any political reasons.

00:01:55.260 Like, he is a pure anarchist.

00:01:56.920 You're right.

00:01:57.280 What's interesting is that he's never complaining

00:01:59.740 and that's really refreshing, so to speak,

00:02:05.320 to see that someone really owning his acts.

00:02:09.640 Yeah.

00:02:09.760 I mean, he's not blaming anyone for what he did.

00:02:13.720 And he's more interesting than, you know,

00:02:16.600 Liam Neeson's character was talking about

00:02:20.060 rolling back crime and corruption.

00:02:22.760 He's just, he just wants to, yeah.

00:02:26.720 And it's like he wants to do works of art, actually.

00:02:32.260 That's why you don't, when he says that Gossam

00:02:36.080 needs a better class of criminals,

00:02:40.020 it's really, you don't find that kind of criminal

00:02:43.080 very easily in the news.

00:02:45.880 I mean, he's like an artist.

00:02:48.500 He just wants to make, maybe not something beautiful,

00:02:51.700 but something great with a few drums and gasoline

00:02:57.560 and a few bullets.

00:02:58.500 Well, I think that's definitely Jack Nicholson's Joker

00:03:01.840 from the Tim Burton film, where explicitly, you know,

00:03:05.680 he thinks of himself as an artist,

00:03:07.760 and he's making these grotesque, you know,

00:03:10.920 living tableau of mutilated women,

00:03:14.060 and, you know, he's painting the art with spray paint

00:03:18.340 and all this.

00:03:19.420 I think that's definitely true.

00:03:20.600 And that probably is an aspect of Ledger.

00:03:23.420 But I think in the Nolan's world,

00:03:26.700 I think it's, he really is,

00:03:28.680 he's a pure anarchist,

00:03:30.220 and he wants to destroy political order.

00:03:34.420 And he wants to show that...

00:03:37.320 In social order, he'll just put it in.

00:03:38.660 In social order, too, yeah.

00:03:40.400 And he wants to show that, you know,

00:03:42.320 deep down, everyone is an animal.

00:03:45.520 And that, you know,

00:03:47.860 the political order of Harvey Dent

00:03:49.640 or the kind of, you know,

00:03:51.880 subterranean, dark political order

00:03:54.280 of Bruce Wayne and Batman,

00:03:56.520 that we're all animals underneath.

00:03:59.620 It is this just kind of pure,

00:04:02.100 unadulterated anarchy.

00:04:05.000 Anarchism.

00:04:06.380 And I guess it is, in a way,

00:04:09.540 our nightmare of a libertarian.

00:04:12.700 You know, where usually the criticism

00:04:14.800 of libertarianism,

00:04:16.040 which might have a large kernel of truth to it,

00:04:18.260 to be honest,

00:04:19.040 is that, oh, you know,

00:04:20.020 but if we didn't have the government,

00:04:22.060 you know, we'd all just be eating each other.

00:04:25.020 Yes.

00:04:25.560 And, you know, and that's,

00:04:28.260 you know, it's funny.

00:04:29.220 This movie was created

00:04:31.260 from a kind of right-wing criticism

00:04:34.880 of libertarians, you could say.

00:04:38.860 Because this movie definitely,

00:04:40.880 I think this,

00:04:42.000 The Dark Knight is an authoritarian film.

00:04:46.200 I think its message,

00:04:47.880 ultimately,

00:04:48.500 is that anarchy and libertarianism is evil.

00:04:50.960 And that we very well might need

00:04:55.260 to break the rules

00:04:56.480 to save the rules.

00:04:59.480 And even classical liberalism,

00:05:01.720 because it's,

00:05:03.540 it's not really getting down to the roots.

00:05:05.820 Yeah, we have to break the rules.

00:05:07.800 When you take the vote,

00:05:09.120 the vote on the boat,

00:05:10.780 you know,

00:05:11.640 on the ferry boat,

00:05:12.720 when they vote

00:05:13.380 and they can't reach a decision.

00:05:15.640 It's,

00:05:15.820 it's one of the best criticisms

00:05:18.380 of democracy on film,

00:05:21.560 actually.

00:05:22.440 I don't want to break the flow,

00:05:24.280 but I'll just throw in

00:05:25.160 that the one thing that I,

00:05:26.800 in the film,

00:05:27.420 that bugs me a little bit

00:05:28.500 that I noticed

00:05:29.120 when I watched it,

00:05:30.180 you know,

00:05:30.360 in preparation for,

00:05:31.380 for this,

00:05:32.880 was the scene

00:05:34.160 where he burns the money?

00:05:35.880 Like,

00:05:36.080 I know,

00:05:37.060 okay,

00:05:37.380 I understand that with that scene,

00:05:38.980 they're trying to communicate

00:05:39.800 that he's really hardcore

00:05:41.040 and,

00:05:41.780 you know,

00:05:42.340 he's,

00:05:42.580 he's a real idealist.

00:05:43.880 He's not just a criminal,

00:05:45.280 but realistically,

00:05:46.580 how does he run his organization

00:05:48.180 without any money?

00:05:50.000 I mean,

00:05:50.800 With lunatics.

00:05:52.320 Yeah.

00:05:53.300 Yeah,

00:05:53.740 because they were all,

00:05:55.020 there's a link

00:05:55.840 with the first,

00:05:57.200 the first,

00:05:58.120 you know,

00:05:59.700 with Batman Begins,

00:06:00.840 because

00:06:01.280 at some point

00:06:03.440 all the lunatics

00:06:04.740 from

00:06:05.340 a doctor

00:06:06.640 cranes,

00:06:08.620 you know,

00:06:10.740 the mental institution

00:06:12.040 are freed

00:06:13.220 with some kind of,

00:06:15.040 you know,

00:06:15.880 electronic gate

00:06:16.900 system

00:06:17.780 that,

00:06:18.280 that fails.

00:06:20.040 And then he recruits

00:06:21.360 them all.

00:06:23.360 And actually,

00:06:24.020 one of the shooters

00:06:24.920 at,

00:06:25.540 you know,

00:06:25.880 the parade

00:06:27.020 that tries to shoot

00:06:28.580 the mayor,

00:06:30.220 one of them is,

00:06:31.220 so he's obviously off,

00:06:32.780 a mental institution

00:06:34.680 and actually,

00:06:36.180 what's more interesting

00:06:37.400 is that

00:06:37.880 he's got a Jewish name,

00:06:39.760 but

00:06:39.940 that's maybe

00:06:41.580 a coincidence.

00:06:42.960 And,

00:06:43.320 you know,

00:06:44.540 he doesn't really

00:06:45.280 need to pay them

00:06:46.680 because they're all crazy

00:06:48.680 and

00:06:49.120 I don't know.

00:06:51.620 Yeah,

00:06:51.800 I agree.

00:06:52.520 I think that's one of

00:06:53.500 Nolan's explicit points

00:06:55.500 is that,

00:06:56.100 and that's why

00:06:56.740 he has the mob

00:06:57.800 in there

00:06:58.220 and that,

00:06:59.240 and the Joker

00:06:59.660 is not part of the mob

00:07:00.840 because in Burden's

00:07:02.720 film,

00:07:03.540 which I,

00:07:04.100 I like,

00:07:05.080 I mean,

00:07:05.220 I think there's

00:07:05.620 some good aspects

00:07:06.100 to it,

00:07:06.720 you know,

00:07:07.100 Jack Napier

00:07:08.120 is this kind of

00:07:08.900 trumped up mobster

00:07:10.180 and he's like

00:07:11.020 a super mobster

00:07:12.100 and,

00:07:13.240 and a flamboyant.

00:07:14.340 Which was big

00:07:15.000 in New York

00:07:15.600 in the 80s.

00:07:16.680 Yeah,

00:07:17.180 yeah,

00:07:17.320 definitely.

00:07:17.540 These Gucci gangsters

00:07:18.800 they called them.

00:07:19.900 I think he was

00:07:20.420 kind of modeled

00:07:20.940 after them.

00:07:22.020 Yeah,

00:07:22.360 definitely.

00:07:22.560 In that film.

00:07:23.340 Yeah,

00:07:23.540 he was kind of

00:07:24.240 modeled after

00:07:25.000 a flamboyant

00:07:26.180 capitalist,

00:07:27.560 maybe even

00:07:28.020 Donald Trump,

00:07:29.120 one could say.

00:07:29.960 who knows?

00:07:31.220 Well,

00:07:31.400 also there were

00:07:32.180 actual gangsters

00:07:33.300 like John Gotti,

00:07:34.460 you know,

00:07:34.860 who,

00:07:35.160 like,

00:07:35.300 everyone knew

00:07:35.800 what they were

00:07:36.540 but,

00:07:36.780 you know,

00:07:37.540 they embraced

00:07:38.280 the line blade

00:07:38.940 anyway.

00:07:39.880 I kind of saw

00:07:40.840 Nicholson as being

00:07:41.720 sort of like

00:07:42.280 modeled after them

00:07:43.420 at the time.

00:07:44.100 yeah,

00:07:44.400 no doubt.

00:07:46.400 But I think

00:07:47.440 within Nolan's

00:07:48.960 world,

00:07:49.320 it's different

00:07:49.980 because the mob,

00:07:51.040 you know,

00:07:51.340 as they say,

00:07:51.980 like the mob,

00:07:53.260 I think

00:07:53.780 Alfred says this,

00:07:55.480 like the mob

00:07:56.020 in desperation,

00:07:57.400 they turn to

00:07:58.060 someone they didn't

00:07:58.660 understand.

00:07:59.120 And so the mob

00:08:01.040 are about money.

00:08:02.660 I mean,

00:08:02.840 they want their 5%

00:08:05.080 and they're not

00:08:07.100 going to do

00:08:07.600 anything that

00:08:08.280 isn't profitable.

00:08:09.520 They're just kind

00:08:10.120 of like a,

00:08:10.780 they're capitalists

00:08:11.840 just on the

00:08:12.920 illegal front.

00:08:14.140 But he is different

00:08:15.620 and so they can't

00:08:16.980 understand him.

00:08:18.440 And I do think

00:08:19.460 that burning

00:08:20.400 of the pile of money

00:08:21.240 thing was just,

00:08:22.040 you know,

00:08:23.220 one of the best scenes

00:08:24.640 because it expressed

00:08:26.180 visually this divide.

00:08:29.400 And,

00:08:29.620 you know,

00:08:30.040 and it's like,

00:08:31.020 you know,

00:08:31.300 we need a higher

00:08:31.940 class of criminals.

00:08:32.780 We need,

00:08:33.580 we need pure anarchists

00:08:35.220 who are going to

00:08:35.820 take down the whole

00:08:36.920 society.

00:08:37.460 At the end of the day,

00:08:38.920 the mob are

00:08:39.880 parasites.

00:08:40.920 You know,

00:08:41.060 they're,

00:08:41.680 they just kind of

00:08:42.240 leech off,

00:08:43.360 you know,

00:08:44.280 hardworking small

00:08:45.240 businesses

00:08:45.760 and stuff.

00:08:47.620 You know,

00:08:47.800 they're just these

00:08:48.500 kind of bad guys

00:08:49.600 who benefit from

00:08:50.340 the system.

00:08:50.800 But the Joker

00:08:52.000 is a,

00:08:52.900 is a true

00:08:53.740 criminal in the

00:08:54.740 sense that he,

00:08:55.280 he wants the

00:08:55.980 whole system

00:08:56.620 to be brought

00:08:57.440 down.

00:08:58.840 And just like,

00:09:00.020 it's,

00:09:00.260 it does seem like

00:09:01.000 every villain

00:09:01.680 in this Nolan

00:09:02.620 world.

00:09:04.440 And that,

00:09:04.960 that seems to be

00:09:05.560 the thing at the

00:09:06.260 heart that he

00:09:07.100 and his brother

00:09:07.960 fear is that

00:09:09.760 they,

00:09:10.600 they sense that

00:09:11.960 there's something,

00:09:13.760 there's some big

00:09:14.680 question or there,

00:09:17.020 there's some big

00:09:17.660 threat to social

00:09:19.120 order in,

00:09:20.200 in the 21st century.

00:09:21.340 and you need

00:09:23.500 a Batman

00:09:24.080 to take it down

00:09:25.380 and you're going

00:09:26.340 to ultimately

00:09:26.740 need to break

00:09:27.600 the rules

00:09:28.260 and lie

00:09:29.160 to people

00:09:30.000 and maybe

00:09:30.520 engage in a

00:09:31.580 surveillance state

00:09:33.380 in order to,

00:09:35.240 look,

00:09:36.400 in order to

00:09:37.140 protect the

00:09:37.760 world.

00:09:38.020 I don't know

00:09:38.640 how you can,

00:09:39.300 you know,

00:09:39.800 I mean,

00:09:40.040 look,

00:09:40.480 this is not

00:09:41.340 a,

00:09:42.720 some people

00:09:43.200 can say this

00:09:43.760 is,

00:09:43.980 oh,

00:09:44.140 this is a

00:09:44.400 conservative,

00:09:45.080 a lot of people

00:09:45.680 have said this,

00:09:46.160 these are conservative

00:09:46.920 movies,

00:09:47.700 they're against,

00:09:48.420 you know,

00:09:48.640 particularly with Bane,

00:09:49.820 he's like a

00:09:50.640 Occupy Wall Street

00:09:51.980 kind of person,

00:09:52.860 but you,

00:09:54.460 you have to

00:09:54.840 understand that

00:09:55.600 the way in which

00:09:56.760 this is a

00:09:57.340 conservative,

00:09:58.020 a conservative

00:09:58.580 movie or

00:09:59.380 a conservative

00:09:59.880 series and

00:10:01.600 it's,

00:10:02.260 it's a very,

00:10:03.320 you know,

00:10:03.840 it,

00:10:04.140 it basically,

00:10:05.020 I think,

00:10:05.460 I think Nolan's

00:10:06.320 message and I

00:10:07.000 don't,

00:10:07.640 again,

00:10:07.980 I don't necessarily

00:10:09.180 like this because I,

00:10:10.540 I feel like I've

00:10:12.060 been opposed to a

00:10:13.500 lot of these things

00:10:14.300 throughout my

00:10:15.080 political career,

00:10:16.540 but I mean,

00:10:16.880 Nolan's message is

00:10:17.940 basically the,

00:10:19.240 the people,

00:10:19.820 ultimately can't

00:10:20.520 be trusted,

00:10:21.740 they,

00:10:22.820 they are animals

00:10:23.880 and they will

00:10:24.700 resort to chaos

00:10:25.700 if you let them

00:10:26.440 and that you need

00:10:27.700 to break the rules

00:10:28.640 in order to save

00:10:29.400 the rules and we

00:10:30.140 might very well

00:10:31.000 need a massive

00:10:32.020 surveillance state

00:10:33.120 in order to keep

00:10:34.180 an eye on the

00:10:35.620 public.

00:10:36.080 I mean,

00:10:36.240 it's a,

00:10:36.620 it's a profoundly

00:10:37.740 authoritarian,

00:10:39.680 you know,

00:10:39.980 you could say

00:10:40.500 George Bush era

00:10:42.280 film.

00:10:43.600 I was just going

00:10:44.140 to say the whole

00:10:44.960 deal with the

00:10:46.140 surveillance when,

00:10:48.320 you know,

00:10:48.760 Morgan Freeman,

00:10:49.920 you know,

00:10:50.300 who's,

00:10:50.920 who's always

00:10:51.400 God,

00:10:51.980 even if he's

00:10:52.460 not actually

00:10:52.840 playing God,

00:10:53.880 you know,

00:10:55.040 it's like,

00:10:55.380 like,

00:10:56.100 oh,

00:10:56.640 you know,

00:10:57.120 we,

00:10:57.420 it's,

00:10:57.840 it's far more

00:10:58.680 dangerous to have

00:10:59.540 this surveillance

00:11:00.200 system set up

00:11:01.220 than to have the

00:11:02.180 Joker loose in

00:11:03.020 the city.

00:11:03.520 like,

00:11:04.060 that's such a,

00:11:05.200 that's such a,

00:11:06.040 a Bush era

00:11:07.360 liberal argument.

00:11:08.980 Right.

00:11:09.880 I mean,

00:11:10.480 I have to say,

00:11:11.140 I happen to agree.

00:11:12.080 I mean,

00:11:12.240 I don't think

00:11:12.900 surveillance is good,

00:11:14.120 although,

00:11:14.820 and I thought they,

00:11:16.000 they overdid it a

00:11:17.200 little bit in that

00:11:17.920 scene,

00:11:18.400 because I mean,

00:11:18.780 like,

00:11:19.360 the Joker is about

00:11:20.240 to kill thousands

00:11:21.480 of people and he's

00:11:22.620 going to stand on,

00:11:23.740 you know,

00:11:24.680 we shouldn't,

00:11:25.300 we shouldn't have

00:11:25.960 this machine.

00:11:26.660 It's evil.

00:11:28.160 You know,

00:11:28.740 I thought it was a

00:11:29.660 little bit heavy handed,

00:11:30.780 but.

00:11:31.400 Don't we criticize

00:11:32.580 the surveillance state

00:11:33.860 because we are not

00:11:35.940 part of it?

00:11:36.720 Like,

00:11:36.940 we,

00:11:37.380 we criticize the

00:11:38.440 surveillance state

00:11:39.200 because we don't

00:11:40.440 like the people in

00:11:41.680 charge.

00:11:42.280 And rightly,

00:11:43.160 I mean,

00:11:43.320 we,

00:11:43.500 we think they're

00:11:44.160 awful.

00:11:44.660 They don't have our

00:11:45.320 ends.

00:11:45.680 They're destroying

00:11:46.280 our,

00:11:46.680 our culture and

00:11:47.820 heritage and things

00:11:48.600 like that.

00:11:49.420 Also,

00:11:49.760 I don't think that

00:11:50.460 all this stuff that

00:11:51.240 they do actually

00:11:52.160 does the things

00:11:53.680 that they talk

00:11:54.240 about,

00:11:54.560 like preventing

00:11:55.140 terrorism.

00:11:56.160 I don't think

00:11:56.620 that's really what

00:11:57.240 it's about.

00:11:58.000 Right.

00:11:58.600 Right.

00:11:59.040 Right.

00:11:59.300 I agree.

00:11:59.800 In the film,

00:12:00.540 in the Nolan film,

00:12:01.560 you know,

00:12:01.740 the good guys are

00:12:02.460 very pure and,

00:12:04.080 you know,

00:12:04.300 they,

00:12:04.600 they're trying to

00:12:05.400 save the society.

00:12:06.380 I don't really

00:12:07.020 believe the people

00:12:07.940 who came up with

00:12:09.440 Homeland Security

00:12:10.240 and behind the NSA

00:12:11.500 and everything.

00:12:13.020 I,

00:12:13.540 I think any,

00:12:14.320 any public good

00:12:15.460 that happens

00:12:16.340 is incidental to

00:12:17.720 their,

00:12:19.000 their actual reasons

00:12:20.040 for wanting to have

00:12:20.800 these cars.

00:12:20.900 I might very well

00:12:21.640 agree,

00:12:22.080 but I,

00:12:22.540 I think my,

00:12:23.260 my,

00:12:23.580 my point is that

00:12:24.320 like if we were

00:12:25.240 involved in the state,

00:12:27.120 wouldn't we be

00:12:28.060 making the same

00:12:28.820 arguments?

00:12:29.520 I mean,

00:12:29.700 if we're just

00:12:30.060 honest with

00:12:30.620 ourselves,

00:12:31.920 would I hope

00:12:32.640 we would be

00:12:33.100 somewhat,

00:12:34.060 wouldn't we be like,

00:12:35.920 ah,

00:12:36.420 if you're not doing

00:12:37.200 anything wrong,

00:12:37.840 you have nothing

00:12:38.220 to fear.

00:12:38.900 You know,

00:12:39.560 we've got to get

00:12:40.300 the bad guys.

00:12:41.160 Come on.

00:12:41.580 none of this wishy-washy

00:12:43.240 crap.

00:12:44.600 Look,

00:12:45.340 it is what it is.

00:12:47.120 I'm not saying

00:12:47.660 it's good or bad

00:12:48.400 and I'm not saying

00:12:49.040 it's bad that we,

00:12:50.500 that we do have

00:12:51.860 people like Snowden

00:12:53.000 and looking,

00:12:54.320 you know,

00:12:54.480 out there kind of

00:12:55.280 pointing out these

00:12:56.040 things,

00:12:56.380 but,

00:12:56.900 but I,

00:12:57.980 I would,

00:12:58.520 I would,

00:12:59.020 I'm honest enough

00:12:59.800 to say that if I

00:13:00.940 were,

00:13:01.500 if I were leading

00:13:02.800 a government,

00:13:03.640 I would probably

00:13:05.100 want to use all

00:13:05.780 the means at my

00:13:06.420 disposal.

00:13:07.920 Yeah,

00:13:08.400 but only when

00:13:09.460 it's useful

00:13:10.400 and with all

00:13:12.100 these attacks

00:13:12.700 which occur

00:13:14.000 now every month,

00:13:16.500 I mean,

00:13:17.340 we've been

00:13:18.060 under mass

00:13:18.940 surveillance for

00:13:19.820 years and

00:13:20.600 they can't catch

00:13:22.140 people who are,

00:13:23.980 you know,

00:13:24.700 all these guys

00:13:26.080 who did,

00:13:26.840 we don't know

00:13:27.640 about Nice

00:13:28.440 yet,

00:13:29.240 but these guys

00:13:31.240 who,

00:13:31.980 who did the

00:13:33.260 Bataclan shooting,

00:13:34.600 I mean,

00:13:36.340 the police had

00:13:37.160 a fight on them,

00:13:38.160 but since they're

00:13:38.880 busy,

00:13:39.460 spying on

00:13:40.480 everyone,

00:13:41.620 they can't

00:13:42.120 really deal

00:13:42.760 with the

00:13:43.240 very,

00:13:43.800 the really

00:13:44.280 dangerous guys

00:13:45.180 and,

00:13:46.360 you know,

00:13:47.040 just a year

00:13:48.800 before,

00:13:50.080 no,

00:13:50.600 the year

00:13:51.060 before the

00:13:51.960 year before,

00:13:52.580 so in 2013,

00:13:54.600 there were

00:13:54.960 all these

00:13:55.580 demonstrations

00:13:56.860 against gay

00:13:58.080 marriage in

00:13:58.760 France,

00:13:59.540 and I

00:14:01.180 know people

00:14:01.800 where,

00:14:03.060 you know,

00:14:03.560 their phone

00:14:04.480 was tapped,

00:14:05.420 not their

00:14:05.940 phone,

00:14:06.340 but the

00:14:06.780 line was,

00:14:08.140 you know,

00:14:08.600 being spied

00:14:09.660 upon by

00:14:10.440 the police,

00:14:11.480 and of course

00:14:12.300 there were

00:14:12.580 not dangerous

00:14:13.320 types,

00:14:13.880 it was more

00:14:14.560 boring,

00:14:16.060 conservative

00:14:16.480 guys,

00:14:17.500 and the

00:14:18.740 police were

00:14:19.400 really investing

00:14:20.820 time and

00:14:21.860 workforce and

00:14:22.900 resources

00:14:23.460 into spying

00:14:25.200 on Catholic

00:14:26.520 conservatives,

00:14:27.980 and at the

00:14:28.820 same time,

00:14:29.540 there were

00:14:29.880 Muslim

00:14:30.320 terrorists,

00:14:31.280 you know,

00:14:32.780 staging

00:14:33.460 mass shootings

00:14:35.160 in France,

00:14:35.900 so I agree

00:14:38.080 with you that

00:14:38.860 the state

00:14:39.500 should not

00:14:40.280 be,

00:14:41.140 because I

00:14:42.220 like Snowden

00:14:42.980 and the

00:14:43.500 other guy,

00:14:45.380 Julian Assange,

00:14:47.580 because,

00:14:48.560 you know,

00:14:49.420 they play a

00:14:50.180 role in the

00:14:51.280 unraveling of

00:14:52.340 the current

00:14:53.180 order,

00:14:53.740 but when you

00:14:55.000 really listen

00:14:56.280 to what

00:14:57.260 Snowden would

00:14:58.240 like as a

00:14:58.900 society,

00:14:59.740 it's,

00:15:00.360 I really

00:15:02.420 don't find

00:15:03.880 anything in

00:15:04.520 common with

00:15:05.020 them,

00:15:05.340 they are

00:15:05.640 just,

00:15:06.480 you know,

00:15:08.120 temporal

00:15:08.740 allies,

00:15:09.840 because,

00:15:11.180 you know,

00:15:11.500 they're pointing

00:15:12.020 in the right

00:15:12.600 direction,

00:15:13.300 but I

00:15:15.540 agree with

00:15:16.120 you on

00:15:16.700 the other

00:15:17.260 hand that,

00:15:18.020 yeah,

00:15:18.600 it's necessary

00:15:19.500 to have

00:15:19.920 surveillance,

00:15:21.580 but one

00:15:22.860 thing is

00:15:23.240 sure is

00:15:23.700 that the

00:15:24.480 way it's

00:15:24.880 used now

00:15:25.540 is not

00:15:26.180 really useful.

00:15:27.800 I totally

00:15:28.400 agree,

00:15:29.140 I mean,

00:15:29.340 we're all

00:15:29.840 on the

00:15:30.020 same page,

00:15:30.560 I guess

00:15:30.840 I'm just

00:15:31.380 kind of

00:15:31.640 making the

00:15:32.220 philosophical

00:15:32.900 point that,

00:15:34.140 and it's

00:15:34.500 what you

00:15:34.800 just said,

00:15:35.220 Romain,

00:15:35.600 in the sense

00:15:36.140 of like,

00:15:37.620 I agree,

00:15:38.800 I admire

00:15:39.340 Snowden,

00:15:39.880 I admire

00:15:40.240 Assange,

00:15:40.880 at the very

00:15:41.360 least for

00:15:41.760 their bravery,

00:15:43.160 but in

00:15:44.320 boldness.

00:15:45.000 They're sort

00:15:45.280 of like

00:15:45.620 benign

00:15:46.160 jokers,

00:15:46.980 I think.

00:15:47.340 Yeah,

00:15:47.800 exactly,

00:15:48.200 they are

00:15:49.800 kind of

00:15:50.080 joker figures,

00:15:51.040 undoubtedly.

00:15:52.400 Especially

00:15:52.880 Assange,

00:15:53.660 actually.

00:15:54.220 Right,

00:15:54.840 but.

00:15:55.560 More than

00:15:56.040 Snowden,

00:15:56.940 with

00:15:57.180 libertarian.

00:15:58.420 Yeah,

00:15:58.660 but they

00:15:59.260 do seem

00:15:59.940 to have,

00:16:00.760 you know,

00:16:01.040 their worldview

00:16:02.140 does seem

00:16:02.860 to be

00:16:03.260 extremely

00:16:03.860 naive,

00:16:04.280 and the

00:16:05.400 way I

00:16:05.720 would also

00:16:06.060 describe it

00:16:06.680 in the

00:16:07.080 sense of

00:16:07.500 the surveillance

00:16:08.680 state is,

00:16:10.480 to go back

00:16:11.000 to Schmidt,

00:16:11.480 I'm going to

00:16:12.060 Schmidt,

00:16:12.340 I'm calling

00:16:12.720 Ivan Schmidt

00:16:13.160 a lot

00:16:13.520 these days,

00:16:14.220 but.

00:16:15.060 That's good.

00:16:15.560 Back to

00:16:15.900 Germany.

00:16:16.680 Yeah.

00:16:16.920 That could

00:16:20.100 be the

00:16:20.320 name of

00:16:20.740 the

00:16:21.100 broadcast.

00:16:21.700 Yeah,

00:16:22.320 back to

00:16:22.840 him.

00:16:25.260 But,

00:16:25.900 what he

00:16:27.520 would probably,

00:16:28.160 the way he

00:16:28.640 would say,

00:16:29.780 the way he

00:16:30.300 would talk

00:16:30.660 about this,

00:16:31.120 if he

00:16:31.500 were alive,

00:16:32.080 is that

00:16:32.440 one of

00:16:34.460 the reasons

00:16:34.880 why we

00:16:35.860 dislike the

00:16:37.420 surveillance

00:16:37.800 stuff is

00:16:38.420 because it's

00:16:39.460 spying on

00:16:40.260 everyone.

00:16:41.360 And so,

00:16:41.900 you do have

00:16:42.420 this sense

00:16:43.020 of,

00:16:43.520 is my

00:16:43.820 computer

00:16:44.300 webcam,

00:16:45.200 which I'm

00:16:45.580 looking at

00:16:45.980 right now.

00:16:46.580 Is this

00:16:47.140 actually

00:16:47.480 looking at

00:16:48.140 me?

00:16:48.460 Why would

00:16:48.980 anyone want

00:16:49.440 to do

00:16:49.660 that?

00:16:50.000 I'm just

00:16:50.580 here,

00:16:51.480 you know,

00:16:51.860 working on

00:16:52.420 the computer

00:16:52.880 and picking

00:16:53.520 my nose.

00:16:54.340 Like,

00:16:54.460 I don't,

00:16:54.840 you know,

00:16:55.020 but I don't

00:16:56.000 want anyone

00:16:56.680 to ever

00:16:57.820 see that

00:16:58.600 video.

00:16:59.040 I mean,

00:16:59.160 it is

00:16:59.420 embarrassing.

00:17:00.080 You know,

00:17:00.200 we all have

00:17:00.560 a sense

00:17:00.820 of privacy.

00:17:01.400 That's why

00:17:01.880 we dislike

00:17:02.660 this stuff.

00:17:03.660 But it's,

00:17:04.140 and I think

00:17:04.480 it's also

00:17:04.840 because,

00:17:05.400 you know,

00:17:05.760 these,

00:17:06.460 the world

00:17:07.180 we live in

00:17:07.820 is this

00:17:08.300 post-American

00:17:09.100 world where

00:17:09.960 you are a

00:17:11.580 citizen.

00:17:12.440 You're not

00:17:12.960 part of a

00:17:14.100 race or a

00:17:14.680 people or

00:17:15.280 a tribe.

00:17:17.060 You know,

00:17:17.220 everyone could

00:17:17.800 be a citizen.

00:17:18.640 And so we,

00:17:19.220 in a way,

00:17:19.540 have to spy

00:17:21.120 on everyone.

00:17:22.420 And the

00:17:22.920 state,

00:17:23.820 you know,

00:17:24.140 because it's

00:17:24.660 based on

00:17:25.340 liberty and

00:17:26.040 freedom and

00:17:26.580 human rights

00:17:27.580 and blah,

00:17:28.020 blah,

00:17:28.160 blah,

00:17:28.500 it can't

00:17:30.160 have an

00:17:30.560 enemy.

00:17:31.280 Like,

00:17:31.420 it's a,

00:17:31.960 you know,

00:17:32.160 it is a

00:17:32.800 liberal world

00:17:34.200 where you

00:17:35.660 can't really,

00:17:37.120 you can't

00:17:38.520 declare enemies.

00:17:39.720 You can't

00:17:40.120 say,

00:17:41.000 well,

00:17:41.220 the Islamist

00:17:41.660 world's different

00:17:42.200 than us.

00:17:42.580 They can't

00:17:43.040 come here.

00:17:43.460 They've got

00:17:43.880 to leave

00:17:44.260 if they're

00:17:44.580 here.

00:17:44.940 You can't

00:17:45.680 say that

00:17:46.280 in this

00:17:46.800 world we

00:17:47.180 live in

00:17:47.500 because of

00:17:48.440 the basic

00:17:50.980 aspects of

00:17:51.680 these states

00:17:52.540 that we

00:17:52.940 live in.

00:17:54.120 And so it

00:17:55.560 has to spy

00:17:56.340 on everyone.

00:17:57.480 You couldn't,

00:17:58.340 you know,

00:17:58.500 it's like in

00:17:59.280 the airport

00:18:00.440 where it's

00:18:00.940 like,

00:18:01.380 can't you

00:18:01.760 just use

00:18:03.020 profiling?

00:18:04.840 You know,

00:18:05.100 don't search

00:18:07.600 a nine-year-old

00:18:09.560 girl or a

00:18:10.560 90-year-old

00:18:11.280 woman.

00:18:12.400 Like,

00:18:12.500 just,

00:18:13.040 you know,

00:18:13.260 search,

00:18:14.520 you know,

00:18:15.000 Muslim men

00:18:15.740 between the

00:18:16.200 ages of

00:18:16.620 20 and

00:18:17.080 40.

00:18:17.980 And that,

00:18:18.980 you know,

00:18:19.320 why don't

00:18:19.700 you do

00:18:20.000 that?

00:18:20.340 And we

00:18:20.680 say that,

00:18:21.200 but it's

00:18:21.720 like to

00:18:22.020 do that

00:18:22.480 would be

00:18:22.940 to go

00:18:23.920 against

00:18:24.300 its values,

00:18:25.200 which are

00:18:26.600 abstract

00:18:27.160 liberalism.

00:18:28.480 Yes.

00:18:29.180 Everybody has

00:18:29.880 to be treated

00:18:30.420 the same.

00:18:31.240 Right.

00:18:31.500 And so we

00:18:31.960 all have to

00:18:32.720 be surveilled.

00:18:33.360 We all

00:18:33.700 have to be

00:18:34.160 searched

00:18:34.560 at airports.

00:18:35.180 Well,

00:18:35.820 I remember

00:18:36.260 a few

00:18:36.660 years ago,

00:18:38.180 well,

00:18:38.500 actually more

00:18:39.000 than a few

00:18:39.420 years ago,

00:18:40.060 this would

00:18:40.380 have been

00:18:40.580 not long

00:18:40.920 after 9-11,

00:18:41.760 John Dingell,

00:18:42.760 who was the

00:18:43.540 congressman from

00:18:45.020 my district in

00:18:46.080 Michigan,

00:18:46.540 I think he'd

00:18:47.200 been in

00:18:47.560 Congress for

00:18:48.120 something like

00:18:48.620 50 years

00:18:49.400 at that time.

00:18:52.020 He was going

00:18:53.240 through an

00:18:53.600 airport and he

00:18:54.720 had an

00:18:55.080 artificial hip

00:18:56.060 from a war

00:18:56.820 injury he had

00:18:57.620 sustained.

00:18:59.080 And it kept

00:19:00.040 setting off the

00:19:00.720 metal detector,

00:19:01.460 so they

00:19:02.140 actually took

00:19:02.620 him aside

00:19:03.120 and strip

00:19:03.720 searched

00:19:04.080 him.

00:19:05.640 And it

00:19:05.840 was,

00:19:06.260 on one

00:19:07.480 hand,

00:19:07.880 you're kind

00:19:08.180 of like,

00:19:08.500 okay,

00:19:08.720 at least

00:19:09.000 they're

00:19:09.200 sticking to

00:19:09.700 their

00:19:09.860 principles,

00:19:10.520 but on the

00:19:10.740 other,

00:19:11.160 it's like,

00:19:11.500 was that

00:19:11.720 really a

00:19:12.380 valuable

00:19:12.800 use of

00:19:14.020 resources

00:19:14.760 to strip

00:19:15.740 search a

00:19:16.260 congressman?

00:19:17.920 And also,

00:19:19.060 so we'll

00:19:19.600 spend trillions

00:19:20.580 of dollars

00:19:21.280 on this

00:19:22.540 crazy

00:19:23.380 airport

00:19:24.780 security

00:19:25.540 and

00:19:25.920 surveillance

00:19:26.400 state,

00:19:27.160 whereas we

00:19:27.720 could just

00:19:28.160 spend a few

00:19:28.720 million and

00:19:29.460 just do it

00:19:30.100 tightly targeted.

00:19:31.460 Or just

00:19:32.340 ban Muslims.

00:19:34.220 I mean,

00:19:34.540 sorry,

00:19:35.240 but we could

00:19:36.700 just do things

00:19:37.540 for millions

00:19:38.140 of dollars,

00:19:38.780 but because

00:19:39.240 we believe

00:19:40.400 in liberalism

00:19:41.120 so hard,

00:19:42.060 we're going

00:19:42.480 to spend

00:19:42.820 trillions

00:19:43.300 of dollars

00:19:43.940 doing this

00:19:44.820 ineffective

00:19:45.420 nonsense.

00:19:50.920 But anyway,

00:19:51.900 it's a movie,

00:19:52.960 so it's an

00:19:53.600 idealized,

00:19:54.660 it is an

00:19:55.660 idealized form.

00:19:56.600 And it's a

00:19:57.120 Hollywood film,

00:19:58.080 so it's not

00:19:58.560 going to stray

00:19:59.260 too far from

00:20:00.340 it.

00:20:00.520 No.

00:20:01.460 The liberal

00:20:02.080 line.

00:20:03.660 No,

00:20:03.880 but it also

00:20:04.880 kind of

00:20:05.240 shows that

00:20:06.060 authoritarian

00:20:07.100 personality

00:20:09.220 within all

00:20:10.280 of us

00:20:10.640 that we

00:20:11.440 ultimately

00:20:11.860 want a

00:20:13.360 Batman

00:20:13.880 spying so

00:20:15.120 that he

00:20:15.400 can catch

00:20:15.960 the Joker.

00:20:17.820 Well,

00:20:18.020 but wouldn't

00:20:18.480 you say,

00:20:19.020 I mean,

00:20:19.160 we discussed

00:20:19.660 this in the

00:20:20.120 last podcast

00:20:20.780 and I think

00:20:21.540 all three

00:20:22.120 of us

00:20:22.440 agreed that

00:20:23.120 we identified

00:20:24.140 much more

00:20:24.960 with the

00:20:25.300 League of

00:20:25.700 Shadows

00:20:26.160 than with

00:20:26.640 Batman.

00:20:27.080 the Joker

00:20:28.960 is a little

00:20:29.460 bit harder

00:20:30.080 for people

00:20:30.660 like us

00:20:31.260 to identify

00:20:32.320 with,

00:20:32.840 but when

00:20:33.260 some of

00:20:34.060 the lines

00:20:34.620 that they

00:20:35.040 make Bruce

00:20:37.240 Wayne

00:20:37.680 slash Batman

00:20:38.500 say in the

00:20:39.260 film just

00:20:39.760 make you

00:20:40.160 grimace,

00:20:40.780 and it

00:20:41.240 makes me

00:20:41.780 want to

00:20:42.100 root for

00:20:42.440 the Joker.

00:20:43.340 What do

00:20:43.580 you mean?

00:20:44.500 You're wrong,

00:20:45.660 Joker.

00:20:46.320 Gotham is

00:20:46.940 full of

00:20:47.360 people who

00:20:47.880 are good,

00:20:49.260 ready to

00:20:50.040 believe in

00:20:50.520 good.

00:20:50.880 it's so

00:20:53.280 ridiculous,

00:20:54.240 but also,

00:20:55.100 I mean,

00:20:55.240 let's face

00:20:55.720 it,

00:20:55.960 I think

00:20:57.460 you would

00:20:57.760 agree,

00:20:58.160 Richard,

00:20:58.560 I mean,

00:20:58.820 we do

00:20:59.320 want chaos

00:21:00.180 in order

00:21:00.640 to kind

00:21:02.160 of break

00:21:02.580 the system.

00:21:03.400 I mean,

00:21:03.700 maybe unlike

00:21:04.440 the Joker,

00:21:05.140 I don't

00:21:05.640 believe in

00:21:06.100 a permanent

00:21:06.860 state of

00:21:07.880 anarchy,

00:21:08.700 chaos.

00:21:09.280 I think

00:21:09.500 we can

00:21:10.260 achieve

00:21:10.620 something

00:21:10.960 better

00:21:11.400 that still

00:21:12.020 has some

00:21:12.940 kind of

00:21:13.320 social order,

00:21:15.040 but I think

00:21:16.140 you and I

00:21:16.740 would agree.

00:21:17.760 Oh,

00:21:17.880 I totally

00:21:18.460 agree,

00:21:19.180 but we're

00:21:19.780 tactical

00:21:21.360 anarchists,

00:21:22.480 you could

00:21:22.740 say.

00:21:23.780 Yes.

00:21:24.640 But the

00:21:25.780 Joker really

00:21:26.420 is an

00:21:27.000 idealized

00:21:27.840 anarchy,

00:21:28.780 and that's

00:21:29.220 why you

00:21:29.600 should respect

00:21:30.240 him,

00:21:30.580 but the

00:21:31.320 Joker is

00:21:31.700 obviously

00:21:32.100 a terrifying

00:21:33.140 figure.

00:21:34.140 You know,

00:21:34.260 if we were

00:21:34.620 in charge

00:21:34.940 of the

00:21:35.160 government,

00:21:35.580 we would

00:21:35.820 have him

00:21:36.180 arrested.

00:21:37.960 Yeah,

00:21:38.460 you can't

00:21:39.180 have somebody

00:21:39.720 like that

00:21:40.260 just blowing

00:21:41.920 things up.

00:21:43.060 But yeah,

00:21:44.820 let's go

00:21:46.300 there.

00:21:46.920 I think

00:21:47.280 there are

00:21:48.460 a lot of

00:21:49.020 other aspects

00:21:49.840 of the

00:21:50.100 film that

00:21:50.400 I want

00:21:50.640 to talk

00:21:50.960 about,

00:21:51.320 but you

00:21:52.320 can't

00:21:52.980 avoid

00:21:53.540 this

00:21:54.140 just

00:21:54.780 like

00:21:55.360 appallingly

00:21:57.120 sentimental

00:21:58.280 scene in

00:22:01.300 this movie.

00:22:01.780 But I

00:22:02.160 think also

00:22:02.540 there's a

00:22:02.900 flip side

00:22:03.440 to the

00:22:03.720 scene,

00:22:04.140 because

00:22:04.800 there's

00:22:05.240 a way

00:22:05.620 that you're

00:22:06.440 supposed to

00:22:07.100 see that

00:22:07.780 scene,

00:22:08.580 but then

00:22:08.880 there's

00:22:09.600 kind of

00:22:09.920 like the

00:22:10.240 real message

00:22:11.020 that seems

00:22:11.440 to be

00:22:11.760 conveyed.

00:22:12.500 And I'm

00:22:12.800 of course

00:22:13.160 referring to

00:22:13.860 the scene

00:22:14.460 with the

00:22:15.420 two

00:22:16.240 ships,

00:22:19.060 the two

00:22:19.620 ferries,

00:22:20.880 that one

00:22:21.340 is full

00:22:21.860 of these

00:22:23.420 Blackgate

00:22:24.280 prison,

00:22:25.100 all these

00:22:25.480 convicted

00:22:26.200 felons,

00:22:27.120 murderers,

00:22:27.920 rapists,

00:22:28.500 so on.

00:22:29.240 And the

00:22:29.580 other is

00:22:29.960 full of

00:22:30.540 the good

00:22:30.900 people of

00:22:31.400 Gotham.

00:22:32.460 And the

00:22:34.540 Joker rigs

00:22:35.380 both boats

00:22:36.160 with bombs

00:22:37.780 and gasoline

00:22:38.480 tanks and

00:22:39.240 so on.

00:22:40.040 He seems

00:22:40.500 to like

00:22:40.840 gasoline

00:22:41.360 tanks.

00:22:42.060 That's his

00:22:42.500 weapon of

00:22:43.340 choice.

00:22:43.560 It's pretty

00:22:43.940 simple.

00:22:44.860 I like

00:22:45.060 that.

00:22:47.780 Maybe

00:22:48.340 there's

00:22:48.700 something to

00:22:49.260 that.

00:22:50.820 It's all

00:22:51.540 about oil

00:22:52.300 and the

00:22:53.620 2000s,

00:22:54.580 wars for

00:22:55.300 oil,

00:22:55.680 who knows?

00:22:57.060 Maybe not.

00:22:59.540 The Joker

00:23:01.480 basically wants

00:23:02.320 to prove how

00:23:03.280 awful people

00:23:04.000 really are and

00:23:04.900 that both

00:23:05.500 boats are

00:23:06.040 going to

00:23:06.260 blow each

00:23:06.960 other up

00:23:07.700 and so

00:23:09.140 on.

00:23:09.600 And they're

00:23:09.980 going to

00:23:10.160 willingly

00:23:10.640 commit murder

00:23:11.520 and so

00:23:13.300 on.

00:23:13.560 But you

00:23:15.420 reach this

00:23:16.300 hugely

00:23:17.360 sentimental

00:23:18.180 aspect of

00:23:19.540 the scene

00:23:20.480 where the

00:23:22.420 good people,

00:23:23.860 the bourgeois

00:23:24.380 Gothamites,

00:23:26.480 the police

00:23:27.620 say,

00:23:28.000 look,

00:23:28.100 we're not

00:23:28.380 doing this.

00:23:28.960 We're not

00:23:29.220 going to

00:23:29.460 kill these

00:23:30.280 prisoners.

00:23:31.220 But then

00:23:31.660 the bourgeois

00:23:32.460 Gothamites are

00:23:33.380 like,

00:23:34.200 well,

00:23:34.480 hold on

00:23:34.980 now.

00:23:36.060 They made

00:23:36.780 their choice.

00:23:39.400 They're going

00:23:40.040 to do the

00:23:40.340 same to us.

00:23:41.200 Let's do

00:23:41.600 it to them

00:23:41.980 first.

00:23:42.500 You know,

00:23:43.700 kind of

00:23:43.940 thing.

00:23:45.260 And then

00:23:46.880 Nolan gives

00:23:49.180 this wildly

00:23:50.260 sentimentalized

00:23:51.440 vision of

00:23:52.040 the prisoners

00:23:53.040 where you

00:23:54.900 ultimately have

00:23:55.480 this good

00:23:56.020 Muslim or

00:23:57.100 apparently this

00:23:58.440 big black,

00:23:59.720 you know,

00:24:00.620 Mike Tyson.

00:24:01.080 He's the

00:24:01.440 magic

00:24:01.760 Negro.

00:24:03.480 But they're

00:24:04.520 praying

00:24:05.080 afterward.

00:24:05.780 It just

00:24:06.080 struck me

00:24:06.680 as that

00:24:07.020 it was

00:24:07.320 kind of

00:24:07.820 Muslim-y.

00:24:09.040 But who

00:24:09.360 knows?

00:24:09.660 Maybe he's

00:24:10.020 a Christian.

00:24:11.540 But, you

00:24:12.520 know, they're

00:24:12.800 like, I'm

00:24:13.720 going to do

00:24:14.180 what you

00:24:14.620 should have

00:24:15.020 done, you

00:24:16.120 know, an

00:24:16.520 hour ago.

00:24:17.180 And he

00:24:17.480 throws the

00:24:18.180 detonator out

00:24:18.860 the ferry

00:24:19.920 window.

00:24:20.880 I thought that

00:24:21.600 was a little

00:24:21.960 unrealistic.

00:24:22.940 I mean, at

00:24:23.500 least maybe it's

00:24:24.320 my own Hollywood

00:24:25.180 idea of what

00:24:26.100 prisoners are

00:24:26.800 like, but it

00:24:28.520 seemed a little

00:24:29.000 unrealistic.

00:24:29.440 Yeah, but

00:24:31.120 he is a

00:24:31.800 magic Negro

00:24:32.460 and he's

00:24:32.860 this like

00:24:33.220 force of

00:24:33.980 pure good,

00:24:35.120 I guess,

00:24:35.920 after he was

00:24:37.180 converted in

00:24:37.860 prison.

00:24:39.240 But I think

00:24:40.540 what's interesting

00:24:41.180 and why I

00:24:42.220 think this

00:24:42.680 scene is

00:24:43.160 redeemable,

00:24:43.960 why it's

00:24:44.280 not just

00:24:44.700 pure sentimental

00:24:46.120 garbage,

00:24:46.600 is that you

00:24:48.680 don't depict

00:24:49.820 the people as

00:24:51.140 the bourgeois

00:24:52.840 Gothamites as

00:24:53.760 ultimately good.

00:24:54.560 Like, it would

00:24:55.000 be one thing if

00:24:55.920 you did some

00:24:56.340 scene where

00:24:56.840 like one guy

00:24:58.080 wanted to blow

00:24:58.760 up the other

00:24:59.220 boat, but

00:25:00.080 the rest of

00:25:00.680 the Gotham

00:25:01.120 people were

00:25:01.480 like, no,

00:25:02.580 it's against

00:25:03.600 our principles.

00:25:04.760 Like, we

00:25:04.960 might have to

00:25:05.540 die, but

00:25:06.200 what's worse?

00:25:07.520 You know,

00:25:07.840 breaking a

00:25:08.460 principle or

00:25:09.100 death, you

00:25:09.760 know, this

00:25:10.400 kind of thing.

00:25:11.780 But you

00:25:12.380 don't have

00:25:13.060 that.

00:25:13.380 Basically, all

00:25:14.080 of them want

00:25:14.500 to kill the

00:25:15.200 prisoners,

00:25:16.240 understandably,

00:25:17.060 but they're

00:25:17.880 afraid to go

00:25:19.000 through with

00:25:19.640 it.

00:25:19.840 They can't

00:25:20.740 get their

00:25:21.200 hands dirty.

00:25:22.960 And so the

00:25:23.860 one person

00:25:24.840 that Nolan

00:25:26.080 focuses on,

00:25:27.220 you know,

00:25:27.500 is this

00:25:27.880 middle-class

00:25:29.160 Republican

00:25:29.660 voting, you

00:25:30.720 know, businessman

00:25:31.220 or something.

00:25:32.420 And he's

00:25:33.200 like, well, I'll

00:25:34.000 do it.

00:25:34.360 But he doesn't

00:25:35.260 have the courage

00:25:36.200 to actually do

00:25:36.920 it.

00:25:37.520 He doesn't have

00:25:38.220 the courage to

00:25:39.100 act.

00:25:40.120 And so what

00:25:40.980 is basically

00:25:41.560 saying, you

00:25:42.900 know, the way

00:25:43.860 most people read

00:25:44.780 that scene is

00:25:45.700 that, oh, we

00:25:47.600 are inherently

00:25:48.260 good.

00:25:48.700 And that's how

00:25:49.140 Batman reads

00:25:50.020 it.

00:25:50.420 He goes, oh,

00:25:51.360 Gotham, it's

00:25:52.300 full of goody-goody

00:25:53.520 liberal assholes,

00:25:54.740 just like me.

00:25:55.840 But he's

00:25:56.940 wrong.

00:25:58.520 What it's, what

00:25:59.260 basically it's

00:25:59.840 full of is

00:26:00.300 cowards who

00:26:02.400 are afraid to

00:26:03.320 act.

00:26:05.440 And, and

00:26:05.860 so Nolan is

00:26:06.900 actually giving

00:26:07.580 a, like a

00:26:08.500 profoundly

00:26:09.240 pessimistic view

00:26:10.880 of, of, of

00:26:12.780 bourgeois

00:26:13.240 people.

00:26:14.480 It's Nietzschean.

00:26:16.420 Yeah.

00:26:17.200 Actually, it's

00:26:17.940 pure

00:26:18.180 Zara Sostra.

00:26:19.080 You know, when

00:26:20.340 he says that

00:26:21.160 the only

00:26:23.140 difference, of

00:26:24.860 course, I'm

00:26:25.380 paraphrasing and

00:26:26.580 it's more

00:26:28.140 complicated than

00:26:29.960 that, but he

00:26:31.400 says that the

00:26:31.940 difference between

00:26:32.980 honest, with

00:26:34.480 quotes, a

00:26:36.180 person and a

00:26:37.000 criminal is a

00:26:37.960 fear of, you

00:26:39.340 know, the

00:26:40.900 fear to be

00:26:41.640 hung by, by

00:26:42.560 the state

00:26:43.080 actually.

00:26:44.320 And it's

00:26:44.640 really what

00:26:45.140 happens because

00:26:46.140 you have this

00:26:47.300 guy with

00:26:48.100 depicted as

00:26:49.920 you said

00:26:50.440 businessman, but

00:26:51.420 he really

00:26:52.080 looks, you

00:26:53.820 know, a

00:26:54.160 kind of nasty

00:26:56.020 person, not

00:26:57.140 really better

00:26:57.780 than a

00:26:58.200 criminal.

00:26:58.580 And he

00:26:59.540 doesn't dare,

00:27:00.240 you know,

00:27:01.340 switch the

00:27:02.200 bomb because

00:27:05.160 he just fears

00:27:06.480 he's going to

00:27:07.220 go to jail or

00:27:08.160 even be

00:27:09.060 executed.

00:27:10.500 Yeah.

00:27:13.180 And so

00:27:13.980 also what

00:27:15.100 it's showing

00:27:15.500 is that

00:27:15.800 democracy is

00:27:17.300 you know,

00:27:18.460 you can have

00:27:19.300 democracy, but

00:27:20.880 at the end of

00:27:21.540 the day, you

00:27:22.500 have to have

00:27:23.140 an authority

00:27:23.760 act.

00:27:25.920 And at

00:27:26.360 some point

00:27:27.200 someone's got

00:27:27.920 to be

00:27:28.560 exceptional and

00:27:29.560 make that

00:27:29.920 decision.

00:27:30.380 I mean, it

00:27:30.680 is again, I'm

00:27:31.500 being very

00:27:32.280 schmitty in

00:27:33.140 here, but

00:27:33.940 even if you

00:27:35.160 want to vote

00:27:35.720 on something

00:27:36.260 like it's

00:27:37.040 some, at

00:27:37.780 some point

00:27:38.640 some sovereign

00:27:39.860 entity has to

00:27:40.980 act in an

00:27:41.840 exceptional way.

00:27:42.720 Like there

00:27:43.580 has to be the

00:27:44.440 state is going

00:27:45.260 to, the state

00:27:45.840 can commit

00:27:46.800 murder because

00:27:48.340 the state does

00:27:49.280 not play by the

00:27:50.200 rules that we

00:27:50.860 all do.

00:27:52.140 And so, you

00:27:53.080 know, the state

00:27:54.100 could say, okay,

00:27:54.900 I agree, this is

00:27:55.940 rationally the

00:27:56.760 better idea.

00:27:57.460 We should kill

00:27:57.980 the prisoners.

00:27:59.200 Let's do it.

00:28:00.080 But the state

00:28:00.920 is immune from

00:28:02.040 normal laws.

00:28:04.460 But if that

00:28:05.180 kind of, yeah, I

00:28:06.660 agree that the

00:28:07.300 way he's depicted,

00:28:08.040 he looks kind of

00:28:08.580 like a petty

00:28:09.680 bourgeois guy or

00:28:10.780 some kind of,

00:28:11.760 maybe kind of

00:28:12.360 sleazy or greasy

00:28:13.260 guy, but he

00:28:14.400 would ultimately

00:28:14.940 have to be

00:28:15.520 prosecuted if

00:28:17.400 he did that.

00:28:19.340 So, you know,

00:28:20.300 it's like you

00:28:21.400 have to have

00:28:22.160 the state that

00:28:23.080 breaks its own

00:28:24.020 laws.

00:28:25.460 And this is the

00:28:26.580 contradiction of

00:28:28.000 sovereignty itself,

00:28:29.320 which is that

00:28:31.280 the state creates

00:28:32.660 laws, but then

00:28:33.880 the state itself

00:28:34.700 breaks them.

00:28:36.160 But in a way,

00:28:37.260 the Enlightenment

00:28:38.160 found a solution

00:28:39.600 with a separation

00:28:41.240 between executive

00:28:42.460 and legislative

00:28:43.900 powers.

00:28:45.300 So, when you

00:28:46.540 have to vote

00:28:47.200 on a long-term

00:28:49.100 law or bill

00:28:51.280 or solution

00:28:52.120 or decision,

00:28:53.440 you can have

00:28:54.160 a parliament,

00:28:55.160 you know,

00:28:55.580 discuss for months

00:28:56.520 or even years

00:28:57.740 actually on

00:28:58.520 something.

00:28:59.140 And then,

00:29:00.220 if you have to

00:29:01.540 react in the

00:29:02.440 minute or the

00:29:03.980 hour, you need

00:29:05.480 the executive

00:29:06.240 power.

00:29:07.680 And the

00:29:08.560 American system

00:29:09.380 was supposed to

00:29:10.360 be fairly

00:29:11.740 balanced between

00:29:12.660 the two because

00:29:13.300 you have the

00:29:13.760 president who

00:29:14.840 can decide to

00:29:15.940 strike, but

00:29:17.760 then if it gets

00:29:18.840 permanent, he

00:29:19.640 has to get a

00:29:21.000 vote by the

00:29:21.540 Congress.

00:29:23.200 But even this

00:29:24.380 system doesn't

00:29:25.120 work, actually.

00:29:26.560 And Batman

00:29:28.400 would be a kind

00:29:29.180 of president

00:29:29.880 figure, but he

00:29:31.460 fails as well.

00:29:33.360 which is, of

00:29:36.740 course, the

00:29:37.040 theme of the

00:29:37.540 third one, but

00:29:38.420 we'll talk

00:29:39.720 about it later.

00:29:41.460 Well, I have

00:29:42.160 to say, in

00:29:43.240 this scene with

00:29:44.040 the boats, I

00:29:44.860 always thought

00:29:45.500 the Joker is

00:29:46.320 showing a

00:29:46.880 little bit of

00:29:47.460 the liberal

00:29:47.860 side himself

00:29:48.880 because it's

00:29:51.020 sort of an

00:29:52.220 experiment in

00:29:53.480 order to prove

00:29:54.200 that people are

00:29:54.880 inherently bad,

00:29:55.960 which is

00:29:56.200 basically like

00:29:56.780 Thomas Hobbes,

00:29:58.140 who, of course,

00:29:59.240 is one of the

00:29:59.700 founders of

00:30:00.520 liberalism, that

00:30:01.380 we have to

00:30:02.320 have these...

00:30:04.080 Well, maybe I'm

00:30:06.020 taking it too

00:30:06.640 far because, of

00:30:07.180 course, Hobbes'

00:30:07.700 argument was that

00:30:08.360 that's why we

00:30:08.940 need society,

00:30:10.860 is in order to

00:30:11.980 keep that in

00:30:12.620 check.

00:30:13.160 Hobbes is a

00:30:14.040 transitionary

00:30:14.940 figure.

00:30:15.360 I think Hobbes

00:30:15.880 is a founder of

00:30:16.780 liberalism.

00:30:17.320 I agree with

00:30:17.820 you.

00:30:18.080 But he's kind

00:30:18.840 of in that

00:30:19.280 transitionary

00:30:20.300 stage so that

00:30:21.200 when we look

00:30:22.260 back at Hobbes

00:30:23.240 from the 21st

00:30:24.160 century, he

00:30:25.120 looks like an

00:30:26.140 authoritarian

00:30:26.600 reactionary.

00:30:28.300 But if you

00:30:28.920 look at Hobbes

00:30:29.940 from the

00:30:30.840 10th century,

00:30:32.060 he's clearly

00:30:33.440 pushing towards

00:30:35.160 a liberal

00:30:36.420 conception.

00:30:37.060 Because Hobbes'

00:30:37.900 conception is

00:30:39.540 that it's a

00:30:41.380 war of all

00:30:41.860 against all,

00:30:42.740 but in order

00:30:43.540 to secure

00:30:44.420 our rights

00:30:45.240 as individuals,

00:30:46.080 we come

00:30:46.820 together to

00:30:47.460 form the

00:30:47.880 state.

00:30:48.700 So it's a

00:30:49.380 radically

00:30:50.840 liberal,

00:30:51.760 Lockean

00:30:52.340 almost,

00:30:52.840 notion.

00:30:54.320 But again,

00:30:55.640 when we

00:30:56.320 read Hobbes,

00:30:57.320 we see some

00:30:58.300 of these

00:30:58.580 aspects,

00:30:59.040 you know,

00:30:59.220 the Leviathan

00:30:59.880 and the

00:31:00.940 sovereign state

00:31:01.820 that it's

00:31:02.160 like, oh

00:31:02.460 my God,

00:31:02.940 this is like

00:31:03.840 fascism or

00:31:04.640 something.

00:31:05.480 But that's

00:31:07.260 in a way to

00:31:08.020 misunderstand him

00:31:09.940 contextually.

00:31:11.160 I was a

00:31:11.760 little bit

00:31:12.040 surprised that

00:31:12.840 somebody who's

00:31:13.460 an anarchist

00:31:14.140 would want

00:31:14.940 to conduct

00:31:16.360 such an

00:31:16.900 experiment to

00:31:17.620 try to prove

00:31:18.280 that people

00:31:18.680 are inherently

00:31:19.140 bad.

00:31:20.000 But it

00:31:21.380 doesn't,

00:31:21.980 at least to

00:31:22.520 me, it

00:31:22.780 doesn't seem

00:31:23.220 entirely

00:31:23.640 consistent.

00:31:24.720 But it's

00:31:25.280 still a

00:31:25.580 great scene.

00:31:26.360 Or maybe

00:31:26.720 not inherently

00:31:27.220 bad, but

00:31:27.820 they're inherently

00:31:28.280 selfish.

00:31:28.800 Maybe that's

00:31:29.480 a better way

00:31:29.900 of putting

00:31:30.200 it.

00:31:31.300 Which itself

00:31:32.120 is, I

00:31:32.500 mean, of

00:31:33.340 course, that's

00:31:33.780 the basis

00:31:34.180 of capitalism

00:31:34.880 right there.

00:31:37.120 Yeah.

00:31:38.220 But capitalism

00:31:39.640 can't really

00:31:40.480 work if

00:31:41.160 there's not

00:31:41.920 some sovereign

00:31:44.340 entity creating

00:31:45.380 the order.

00:31:46.680 You know,

00:31:46.940 like private

00:31:47.920 property, I

00:31:48.700 mean, we all

00:31:50.340 have a sense

00:31:51.140 of private

00:31:51.600 property.

00:31:52.140 I mean, a

00:31:52.760 dog has a

00:31:53.520 sense of

00:31:54.040 private property.

00:31:55.120 Like, this

00:31:55.360 is my bone,

00:31:56.800 this is my

00:31:57.260 territory.

00:31:57.560 You know, they

00:31:57.980 mark territory

00:31:59.020 by urinating.

00:32:01.160 I mean, it's

00:32:01.820 lots of, tons

00:32:02.860 of animals do

00:32:03.500 this.

00:32:04.440 Yes.

00:32:05.120 You know, but

00:32:05.700 so we do

00:32:06.580 have that, like,

00:32:07.460 animalistic concept

00:32:08.860 of private

00:32:09.420 property, but

00:32:10.140 this notion

00:32:12.040 that, like, I

00:32:12.620 can own one

00:32:13.760 millionth of

00:32:15.020 the Apple

00:32:15.620 corporation by

00:32:17.120 purchasing one

00:32:18.380 share through

00:32:20.060 E-Trade or

00:32:21.140 something, like,

00:32:21.820 this is so

00:32:22.780 abstracted.

00:32:24.120 You know, it's

00:32:24.580 just, it's

00:32:25.220 ridiculous in a

00:32:26.280 way.

00:32:26.460 You know, and

00:32:27.360 so you, it's

00:32:28.240 a, it's a

00:32:28.640 total construct,

00:32:29.920 you know, and

00:32:31.800 and so, but

00:32:32.560 the, so the

00:32:33.020 only way that

00:32:34.140 the, that

00:32:34.740 our, you

00:32:35.620 know, abstracted

00:32:36.540 notion, notions

00:32:37.660 of property

00:32:38.360 could ever

00:32:39.060 function is, is

00:32:40.720 when there is

00:32:41.620 one sovereign

00:32:42.360 entity that

00:32:43.240 creates an

00:32:44.280 order.

00:32:46.260 And, you

00:32:46.960 know, so it's

00:32:47.580 like you need

00:32:48.500 violence and you

00:32:49.700 need the state

00:32:50.820 in order to

00:32:52.120 have any kind

00:32:52.840 of semblance

00:32:53.400 of society.

00:32:54.120 but it's, it's

00:32:55.280 not natural, like

00:32:56.340 capitalism and

00:32:57.420 property and, and

00:32:59.200 all this kind of

00:32:59.780 stuff.

00:33:00.100 It's not, it's

00:33:00.840 not like that

00:33:01.240 would arise

00:33:02.560 naturally.

00:33:03.280 I think

00:33:03.740 libertarians are

00:33:04.520 just totally,

00:33:05.800 completely out to

00:33:07.200 lunch when they

00:33:08.060 say things like

00:33:08.720 this.

00:33:09.900 Even the

00:33:10.720 individual.

00:33:12.280 Yeah, the

00:33:12.660 concept of the

00:33:13.380 individual does

00:33:14.140 not exist without

00:33:15.140 the state.

00:33:15.620 Yeah, because

00:33:15.680 nature is tribal

00:33:17.720 and, and you

00:33:19.460 know, all this

00:33:20.500 state of nature

00:33:21.880 thing, which

00:33:23.620 you can find

00:33:24.380 in, so in

00:33:25.440 Hobbes, Locke

00:33:26.420 and, um,

00:33:28.320 later you

00:33:29.260 have, uh,

00:33:30.060 Rousseau in,

00:33:30.780 um, Switzerland

00:33:32.040 and France is,

00:33:34.140 you know, these

00:33:34.920 guys had the

00:33:35.780 excuse of not

00:33:36.740 knowing what,

00:33:37.660 uh, prehistoric

00:33:39.440 times were, but

00:33:40.560 when you look at

00:33:41.520 how humans lived,

00:33:43.200 it was only

00:33:43.920 tribes.

00:33:44.740 Right.

00:33:45.060 And the

00:33:45.320 individual didn't

00:33:46.420 even exist

00:33:47.180 actually.

00:33:47.660 Even, even the

00:33:49.020 alpha guy of the

00:33:50.040 tribe was not

00:33:51.300 truly an

00:33:51.840 individual because

00:33:52.920 of course he

00:33:53.780 could, uh, lay

00:33:54.660 all the women

00:33:55.560 and take the

00:33:56.780 best shares of

00:33:57.580 the mammoths, but

00:33:58.580 at the end of

00:33:59.940 the day, he was

00:34:00.500 responsible for

00:34:01.420 his people, which

00:34:02.900 a libertarian would

00:34:04.140 deny, actually.

00:34:05.200 He would say,

00:34:05.600 no, I'm only

00:34:06.560 responsible for

00:34:07.440 myself.

00:34:08.660 And someone

00:34:10.060 who would do

00:34:11.040 that in, you

00:34:12.240 know, in the

00:34:13.040 ice age would

00:34:13.840 die in maybe

00:34:15.160 48 hours.

00:34:17.040 Oh yeah.

00:34:17.320 This notion that

00:34:18.140 we were born

00:34:19.000 free, but

00:34:20.060 society and

00:34:21.100 politics put us

00:34:22.180 in chains.

00:34:22.980 Bullshit.

00:34:23.500 Rousseau.

00:34:24.580 Exactly.

00:34:25.240 Rousseau.

00:34:25.900 Reminded and I

00:34:26.480 say it, you

00:34:26.940 know, yeah,

00:34:27.860 I mean, exactly.

00:34:28.920 Rousseau.

00:34:29.900 Yeah.

00:34:31.560 Rousseau should be

00:34:32.600 put in more

00:34:33.260 policies.

00:34:36.760 Yeah.

00:34:37.200 Uh, Rousseau,

00:34:38.960 uh, one of

00:34:39.860 those, one of

00:34:41.420 those French.

00:34:42.020 Is that a town

00:34:42.660 in Texas?

00:34:44.040 Well, it is, but

00:34:44.960 I'm referring to

00:34:45.940 a, uh, an

00:34:47.000 evil, uh,

00:34:47.880 French philosopher

00:34:48.920 who, uh,

00:34:49.620 believed in

00:34:50.140 surrender and, uh,

00:34:51.920 not eating

00:34:52.500 hamburgers.

00:34:53.720 And, uh, you

00:34:54.220 can't trust it.

00:34:55.380 You can't trust

00:34:56.500 such a fellow.

00:35:00.200 But, but, but

00:35:02.120 anyway, um, yeah.

00:35:04.380 All right.

00:35:04.840 So do you want

00:35:05.920 to talk more

00:35:06.780 about, do you

00:35:07.560 want to leave

00:35:08.040 that aspect?

00:35:09.160 I, I, I, this

00:35:10.160 whole movie is

00:35:10.800 about sovereignty.

00:35:11.440 I mean, the

00:35:11.880 whole, the

00:35:12.700 whole Nolan's

00:35:13.960 whole trilogy is

00:35:14.720 about sovereignty

00:35:15.400 in my opinion.

00:35:17.160 Um, but, uh, I

00:35:18.880 guess we can talk

00:35:19.420 a little bit about

00:35:20.120 Batman and Dent

00:35:21.340 or do you want

00:35:21.720 to add something?

00:35:22.640 Well, I was just

00:35:23.140 going to say you

00:35:23.600 mentioned violence

00:35:24.540 and I mean, one

00:35:25.460 of the interesting

00:35:26.020 aspects of the

00:35:26.800 film, although

00:35:27.320 it's, it's a

00:35:28.160 classic trope for

00:35:29.160 this kind of

00:35:30.380 film and also

00:35:31.080 Westerns is that,

00:35:33.240 you know, at

00:35:33.940 first Batman is

00:35:34.800 the savior, but

00:35:35.580 of course he has

00:35:36.260 to use violence,

00:35:37.280 uh, in order to

00:35:39.340 restore the social

00:35:40.200 order, as you

00:35:40.740 said, and then

00:35:41.400 he ends up

00:35:42.260 becoming the

00:35:42.820 criminal because

00:35:44.220 the bourgeois

00:35:45.080 state can't

00:35:46.180 absorb somebody

00:35:47.260 like Batman.

00:35:48.420 I mean, he

00:35:48.680 can't be

00:35:48.980 regularized.

00:35:50.720 So, I mean, I

00:35:51.180 know you can

00:35:51.720 say in the

00:35:52.080 context of the

00:35:52.680 film, he's

00:35:53.140 taking the

00:35:53.880 fall for, for

00:35:54.900 dent, but

00:35:55.580 still, I mean,

00:35:56.540 in the symbolic

00:35:57.240 sense, I think

00:35:58.040 that that's

00:35:58.420 important is that,

00:35:59.500 you know, he

00:36:00.300 begins as the

00:36:01.080 savior, but

00:36:01.700 ends as the

00:36:02.240 criminal because

00:36:03.020 the states, you

00:36:03.940 know, just

00:36:04.260 can't process a

00:36:06.060 liberal state

00:36:06.720 anyway, can't

00:36:07.360 process somebody

00:36:08.160 like the

00:36:08.520 Batman.

00:36:09.480 Well, I

00:36:09.640 think this is

00:36:10.220 the degree to

00:36:11.320 which this

00:36:12.300 film is tragic

00:36:13.420 is that, because

00:36:14.600 you know, it's

00:36:16.420 a funny, it's

00:36:17.780 a funny thing

00:36:18.380 about Nolan's

00:36:19.020 Batman, and

00:36:20.660 we talked a

00:36:21.620 little bit about

00:36:22.100 this when we

00:36:22.560 were discussing

00:36:23.120 Batman Begins,

00:36:24.060 is that in, in

00:36:25.940 like the, in the

00:36:26.700 burden era and

00:36:27.740 in other

00:36:28.180 depictions of

00:36:29.300 Batman, it's, it's

00:36:30.840 deeply psychological.

00:36:32.340 So, you know,

00:36:33.100 Batman, Bruce Wayne

00:36:34.100 just has to become

00:36:35.120 Batman.

00:36:35.540 Batman, you know,

00:36:35.780 this is the

00:36:36.440 shadow side to

00:36:37.460 himself, or the

00:36:39.340 unconscious side to

00:36:40.440 himself, is that he

00:36:41.200 wants to dress up

00:36:42.500 in fetishistic

00:36:44.700 leather costumes and

00:36:46.060 go beat up people

00:36:47.160 and go off them.

00:36:48.040 Like a Watchman.

00:36:49.480 Yeah, yeah.

00:36:51.420 And, so, but I

00:36:54.620 think Christopher

00:36:55.240 Nolan's Batman is

00:36:56.120 very different because

00:36:57.060 he, you know, all,

00:36:58.220 his whole suit and

00:36:59.480 things like that, it

00:37:00.380 does have a Halloween

00:37:02.400 costume-like aspect to

00:37:03.800 it, but it's all

00:37:04.540 very practical.

00:37:05.600 Like, he is

00:37:06.120 basically the

00:37:06.600 military-industrial

00:37:07.620 complex.

00:37:09.280 But he doesn't, he

00:37:10.700 doesn't want to be

00:37:11.860 Batman.

00:37:12.380 He almost feels

00:37:12.960 guilty that he's

00:37:13.920 Batman.

00:37:15.020 And, and what he,

00:37:16.100 he ultimately wants

00:37:16.880 Batman to go away.

00:37:18.280 There, there, there's

00:37:18.800 some of these lines

00:37:19.740 where, when Bruce

00:37:21.680 Wayne is speaking

00:37:22.620 with, is speaking

00:37:26.080 with Rachel, where,

00:37:28.500 you know, he says,

00:37:29.420 you know, you know

00:37:30.460 that time, let me

00:37:31.660 find the exact quote.

00:37:32.840 He says, you know

00:37:34.180 that time when we

00:37:35.200 wouldn't need a

00:37:35.960 Batman, it's coming.

00:37:37.080 You know, that day

00:37:37.800 that you once told

00:37:39.080 me about when

00:37:40.000 Gotham would no

00:37:41.000 longer need Batman,

00:37:42.700 it's coming.

00:37:44.260 And, so, Bruce

00:37:45.500 basically wants to

00:37:46.500 overcome himself.

00:37:47.800 He, he wants

00:37:48.260 Batman to go away.

00:37:50.400 Because he's a

00:37:50.820 liberal.

00:37:51.560 Yeah, exactly.

00:37:52.520 He doesn't want

00:37:53.060 somebody like Batman

00:37:53.960 to have to exist.

00:37:56.380 Absolutely, yeah.

00:37:58.520 And, so, he, he's

00:37:59.920 like a reluctant

00:38:00.720 user of violence.

00:38:02.280 Um, but he, he's,

00:38:05.020 he's, this is so,

00:38:06.560 I'm sorry to

00:38:07.200 interrupt you, Richard.

00:38:07.940 Go ahead.

00:38:08.400 No.

00:38:08.720 But it's, it's so

00:38:09.700 typical of present

00:38:11.660 day Hollywood movies

00:38:12.840 and TV shows that

00:38:13.700 the hero always has

00:38:15.380 to, like, hate

00:38:16.280 himself and have a

00:38:17.860 dark past and be

00:38:19.460 at war with

00:38:20.160 himself.

00:38:20.860 I mean, the, you

00:38:21.920 know, the hero of

00:38:22.660 50 years ago who,

00:38:23.880 you know, just, just

00:38:24.580 stands for something

00:38:25.620 and is, is upright

00:38:26.960 and, and, and

00:38:28.620 pure.

00:38:29.200 I mean, that, that

00:38:29.700 doesn't exist

00:38:30.460 anymore.

00:38:32.180 Uh, you know, I

00:38:33.080 mean, the hero

00:38:33.520 always has to be,

00:38:34.640 uh, uh, you

00:38:36.360 know, a split

00:38:36.880 personality with a

00:38:38.040 dark past and,

00:38:39.280 you know, regrets

00:38:39.960 his own actions.

00:38:41.540 I mean, you see

00:38:41.980 this time and time

00:38:42.860 again in Hollywood

00:38:44.460 these days.

00:38:45.180 I, I see, uh, you

00:38:46.640 know, they're sort

00:38:47.100 of, uh, trying to

00:38:48.080 fit Batman into

00:38:48.940 that mold.

00:38:49.760 And I, cause

00:38:50.820 we're not comfortable.

00:38:51.420 I don't want to make

00:38:51.580 it sound like I

00:38:51.980 don't like, I like

00:38:53.140 the film and I

00:38:53.900 think it works, but

00:38:54.900 it is very typical

00:38:56.100 of, uh.

00:38:56.820 Oh, I, I love, I

00:38:57.920 love these films.

00:38:58.700 I, I just, I just

00:38:59.620 try to, you know, be

00:39:00.540 critical, critical of

00:39:01.500 them.

00:39:01.740 I would say I would,

00:39:02.840 I would return to

00:39:03.620 this, um, this hero

00:39:05.480 that I've, I've

00:39:06.000 talked about before

00:39:06.640 the, the John

00:39:08.200 Wayne's, that Ethan

00:39:09.080 character from the

00:39:10.460 searchers.

00:39:11.320 Uh, it is important

00:39:12.540 that, you know, Ethan

00:39:13.940 is like, he is who he

00:39:15.260 is, but he is also

00:39:17.420 very similar in this

00:39:20.000 way of someone who

00:39:21.020 is, who, who, who

00:39:22.440 is compelled to use

00:39:23.760 violence, but almost

00:39:24.640 has a sense of a

00:39:25.740 certain, at least

00:39:26.940 with society, there's

00:39:27.880 a certain sense of

00:39:28.920 guilt about it.

00:39:30.060 At the very end of

00:39:30.840 that film, he is

00:39:32.140 shunned, effectively.

00:39:33.380 He, the, the very

00:39:34.740 famous ending of the

00:39:35.920 searchers is that

00:39:36.780 everyone else goes

00:39:37.740 into the house, they

00:39:39.040 go into the domestic

00:39:39.780 sphere, but John,

00:39:41.260 Ethan, John Wayne,

00:39:42.260 who is this violent,

00:39:43.280 almost like Indian

00:39:44.240 like figure, like a

00:39:45.560 true warrior, has to

00:39:46.960 leave and go away.

00:39:48.940 Um, it, it, it,

00:39:49.840 Well, that's how a

00:39:50.360 lot of Westerns end,

00:39:51.480 you know, the cowboy

00:39:52.960 who wins, who he has

00:39:54.020 to leave town at the

00:39:54.940 end because,

00:39:55.740 you know, then he

00:39:57.440 is the destructive

00:39:58.340 force that's left

00:39:59.520 once all the bad

00:40:01.040 guys have gone

00:40:01.720 away.

00:40:02.060 Right.

00:40:02.280 He's killed all the

00:40:03.120 bad guys, but then

00:40:04.060 he, he is, he's

00:40:05.480 still bad and he

00:40:07.460 can't be tolerated.

00:40:08.640 I, I think that

00:40:09.400 that's basically how

00:40:10.460 Nolan slash Bruce

00:40:12.800 Wayne feels about

00:40:13.880 Batman is that, you

00:40:15.200 know, it's like, oh,

00:40:15.740 he, I think even, uh,

00:40:17.220 Harvey Dent says

00:40:18.040 this, like Batman

00:40:19.280 doesn't want to do

00:40:19.960 this forever.

00:40:20.440 He's just, he's

00:40:21.480 just waiting for

00:40:22.280 someone to rise up

00:40:23.240 and, and do

00:40:23.780 this in a, a

00:40:24.840 public, you

00:40:25.820 know, civic duty

00:40:26.660 kind of way.

00:40:27.160 To run for

00:40:27.580 Congress.

00:40:28.160 Right.

00:40:29.720 Whatever.

00:40:31.220 Yeah.

00:40:31.500 I mean, literally,

00:40:32.560 or, you know, he's

00:40:33.700 running for DA, but,

00:40:34.880 but, you know.

00:40:35.620 Dent refers to, um,

00:40:38.160 to Rome and in

00:40:39.680 Rome, there, there

00:40:40.700 could be a dictator.

00:40:42.080 Yeah.

00:40:42.280 It was compatible

00:40:44.020 with the laws

00:40:44.960 because it was

00:40:46.640 maybe, I think it

00:40:48.000 was for one year

00:40:48.940 that, uh, full

00:40:51.140 power was granted

00:40:52.200 to, um, to

00:40:53.380 this dictator and

00:40:54.500 he had to use it

00:40:55.580 for good because,

00:40:56.700 uh, to do good

00:40:58.660 because otherwise

00:40:59.820 it could be, um,

00:41:01.240 executed at the

00:41:02.920 end.

00:41:03.200 But, uh,

00:41:04.200 actually in all

00:41:06.240 systems, some,

00:41:09.160 you know, you

00:41:09.600 have similar

00:41:10.140 measures that

00:41:11.500 exist, but

00:41:12.260 uh, Dent's

00:41:13.840 point is that

00:41:14.600 Batman is just

00:41:15.540 doing what the

00:41:16.600 state should do

00:41:17.380 and doesn't

00:41:19.320 dare do or

00:41:20.280 doesn't want to

00:41:21.900 do.

00:41:22.460 Yeah.

00:41:23.080 I mean,

00:41:23.340 that's the most

00:41:24.160 fascistic scene

00:41:26.760 in the film, I

00:41:27.560 think, because,

00:41:28.880 you know, what

00:41:29.200 does he say?

00:41:29.980 Like, uh, uh,

00:41:31.520 cause then, uh,

00:41:32.800 uh, Rachel

00:41:33.620 says, well, but

00:41:35.040 the last guy who

00:41:36.000 did that was named

00:41:36.760 Caesar and he

00:41:37.620 never gave up his

00:41:38.440 power.

00:41:38.980 Doesn't Dent say

00:41:39.900 something like,

00:41:40.620 well, you either

00:41:41.440 become the villain

00:41:42.500 or you die, die

00:41:44.060 as a hero.

00:41:45.300 I'm like, that's,

00:41:46.460 that's such a

00:41:47.040 fascistic.

00:41:47.780 Yeah.

00:41:48.060 And then at the

00:41:48.740 end of that, Bruce

00:41:49.680 says, okay, Harvey,

00:41:51.140 I'm sold.

00:41:52.020 So basically Bruce

00:41:53.420 was like waiting.

00:41:54.600 He was almost, uh,

00:41:55.700 baiting him to go

00:41:58.040 there, you know,

00:41:59.300 and it's almost

00:42:00.800 like, but, but

00:42:01.400 wait a second, you

00:42:02.500 know, banning all

00:42:03.280 Muslims.

00:42:03.820 You mean we're

00:42:04.640 going to deport

00:42:05.260 people and break

00:42:05.980 them?

00:42:06.220 Well, so be it.

00:42:07.040 That's what we

00:42:07.520 have to do.

00:42:08.000 And it's, it's

00:42:09.140 like Bruce is

00:42:10.220 just waiting for

00:42:10.880 him to say

00:42:11.260 that.

00:42:11.940 And, and then

00:42:12.680 once he does

00:42:13.400 say that, once

00:42:14.020 he reveals his

00:42:15.300 authoritarian

00:42:16.220 personality, then

00:42:18.000 Bruce is like,

00:42:18.680 all right, I'm

00:42:19.440 going to use my

00:42:19.980 other capitalist

00:42:20.640 friends and we're

00:42:21.800 going to.

00:42:23.440 Yeah.

00:42:23.560 Because he's got

00:42:24.560 a green light.

00:42:25.600 Yeah.

00:42:26.820 Because the

00:42:27.400 GA says so.

00:42:29.660 Exactly.

00:42:30.240 And so it's

00:42:31.780 this weird thing

00:42:32.520 where like Batman

00:42:33.380 Batman is like

00:42:35.360 the, the, the

00:42:37.120 shadow of the

00:42:38.040 state in these

00:42:39.300 films, in

00:42:40.140 Nolan's films,

00:42:40.900 not, not in

00:42:41.500 other ones.

00:42:42.060 I think Nolan's

00:42:42.940 this is why I

00:42:44.320 think this, these

00:42:45.120 are kind of like

00:42:45.740 a, it's a

00:42:46.720 masterpiece of

00:42:47.480 sorts of pop

00:42:48.560 art because,

00:42:50.680 because it is

00:42:51.760 unique.

00:42:52.260 And in this

00:42:53.320 film, it's like

00:42:54.200 Batman is the

00:42:55.180 shadow of the

00:42:56.160 government.

00:42:56.920 And so the

00:42:59.060 government is

00:42:59.760 above board and

00:43:00.800 public and doesn't

00:43:01.580 wear a mask, but

00:43:02.300 Batman represents

00:43:03.580 this shadow

00:43:04.320 self.

00:43:05.500 And especially

00:43:05.920 his armory, you

00:43:07.900 know, all his

00:43:08.520 weapons and the

00:43:09.720 mass surveillance

00:43:10.440 system, it's all

00:43:13.160 kind of shadow

00:43:14.740 contracts that

00:43:16.640 Wayne Enterprises

00:43:17.700 is doing, but

00:43:18.720 not officially

00:43:20.080 because it's in

00:43:21.180 secret buildings

00:43:22.240 and it's of the

00:43:23.680 books actually as

00:43:24.860 one of the

00:43:26.020 characters notices,

00:43:27.880 you know, the

00:43:28.420 man who wants to

00:43:29.400 blackmail Bruce

00:43:31.040 Wayne and

00:43:31.660 Morgan Freeman, I

00:43:33.480 never remember

00:43:34.720 the name.

00:43:35.880 Lucius Fox.

00:43:36.560 Oh, the

00:43:36.780 character.

00:43:37.520 Oh, yeah.

00:43:38.100 Lucius Fox.

00:43:39.020 He's basically

00:43:39.340 just playing

00:43:39.900 Morgan Freeman.

00:43:42.840 So every, every

00:43:44.480 weapon is

00:43:45.200 something they are

00:43:46.040 just testing to,

00:43:47.740 you know, then

00:43:49.920 apply it to the

00:43:51.020 army.

00:43:52.200 That's, you

00:43:53.080 know, the

00:43:53.440 Kevlar uniform

00:43:54.400 and all these

00:43:55.140 things.

00:43:55.500 They just want to

00:43:56.220 bring it to

00:43:56.740 Iraq, but first

00:43:58.740 Batman has to

00:43:59.740 see if it

00:44:00.960 really works.

00:44:02.960 And yeah, he

00:44:03.780 is the military

00:44:04.580 industrial complex.

00:44:05.720 I mean, that,

00:44:06.020 that, that, that,

00:44:07.300 that's what

00:44:07.920 Batman represents.

00:44:09.600 I think there is

00:44:10.700 this interesting,

00:44:11.520 there's this ironic

00:44:12.220 aspect that again,

00:44:13.500 I think you people

00:44:14.720 don't really see it

00:44:15.680 this way because

00:44:16.380 we, we know that

00:44:18.200 Batman's good.

00:44:18.980 And so we, we, we

00:44:19.980 understand and we're

00:44:20.780 always giving him

00:44:21.540 our sympathy, but

00:44:22.460 you know, in the,

00:44:23.560 in the film, Bruce

00:44:25.800 Wayne creates the, a

00:44:28.540 ruse of a, an

00:44:29.740 alliance between

00:44:30.680 Lao and his

00:44:31.980 Chinese company and,

00:44:33.880 and the, and Wayne

00:44:34.660 Enterprises.

00:44:35.220 And the only reason

00:44:36.260 he does it is because

00:44:37.080 he wants to look at

00:44:38.020 their books and

00:44:38.940 basically see what

00:44:40.060 illegal mob

00:44:41.140 activities going on.

00:44:42.340 But the irony is

00:44:43.520 that when the, the

00:44:44.740 little accountant

00:44:45.520 looks at Wayne

00:44:47.880 Enterprises books,

00:44:48.860 he's like, holy

00:44:49.720 shit, you know,

00:44:51.980 you guys are

00:44:52.820 funding a totally

00:44:54.720 illegal, like

00:44:56.360 violent arm, like,

00:44:58.660 you know, paramilitary

00:45:00.060 in, in Gotham

00:45:01.860 city.

00:45:03.060 And, you know,

00:45:04.440 it's, it's this,

00:45:05.940 again, it's kind of

00:45:06.720 like only I can be

00:45:08.020 exceptional, you

00:45:08.740 know, we can be

00:45:09.780 corrupt because we're

00:45:10.720 good, but like other

00:45:11.760 people are corrupt.

00:45:12.600 Ooh, we better

00:45:13.240 investigate that.

00:45:16.000 But, but yeah, I

00:45:17.100 mean, there's this,

00:45:17.800 at the end of the

00:45:19.540 film, you know,

00:45:21.320 after Harvey has

00:45:22.360 gone, gone nuts and

00:45:24.200 he's become, you

00:45:25.280 know, Harvey

00:45:25.760 Two-Face, he's

00:45:26.500 become just like

00:45:27.140 pure violence.

00:45:29.100 He says to, and

00:45:31.360 it's again, very

00:45:32.120 profoundly Schmittian,

00:45:33.480 it's a Schmittian

00:45:34.020 movie.

00:45:34.600 He says, you

00:45:35.300 thought we could be

00:45:36.100 decent men in an

00:45:37.340 indecent world.

00:45:38.380 And he's talking to

00:45:39.320 Gordon, Commissioner

00:45:40.740 Gordon.

00:45:41.340 You thought we

00:45:42.040 could lead by

00:45:42.780 example.

00:45:43.520 You thought the

00:45:44.120 rules could be

00:45:44.920 bent but not break.

00:45:46.440 You were wrong.

00:45:47.460 The world is cruel

00:45:48.480 and the only

00:45:49.400 morality in a

00:45:50.220 cruel world is

00:45:51.640 chance.

00:45:52.600 So he is kind of

00:45:54.880 almost aligned with

00:45:56.480 the Joker.

00:45:57.300 Like he, he's like,

00:45:59.100 you can't be good in

00:46:00.760 this world.

00:46:01.360 We all are awful.

00:46:03.140 And so what I'm

00:46:04.640 going to do is seek

00:46:05.460 just pure revenge.

00:46:06.920 You know, I'm going

00:46:07.300 to kill your kid in

00:46:08.240 front of your face.

00:46:09.060 I'm going to kill

00:46:10.060 all these bad

00:46:10.900 mobsters.

00:46:12.240 And, you know, the

00:46:13.460 only thing that is

00:46:15.020 holding this together

00:46:16.020 is chance, is the

00:46:17.900 flip of a coin.

00:46:19.560 But before that, you

00:46:21.800 know, his coin had

00:46:22.840 two sides that were

00:46:23.880 identical heads.

00:46:24.880 It was a mendacious

00:46:26.920 coin.

00:46:28.020 You know, he never

00:46:28.600 really went on

00:46:29.460 chance.

00:46:29.880 He would always say

00:46:30.380 like, oh, flip on

00:46:31.360 it, ha, ha, ha.

00:46:32.680 But it was, it was

00:46:34.060 again, that, that,

00:46:35.000 that making that

00:46:36.300 point that the state

00:46:37.940 has to make its own

00:46:39.060 luck.

00:46:39.800 You know, the state

00:46:40.420 has to lie.

00:46:41.280 The state has to be

00:46:42.380 exceptional in order

00:46:44.040 to keep up this

00:46:45.780 ruse of, of

00:46:47.340 society.

00:46:50.980 Yes.

00:46:51.780 Yeah, I mean,

00:46:52.380 that's, well, we've

00:46:54.560 talked about it

00:46:55.240 already, but yeah,

00:46:56.240 that's the

00:46:56.560 contradiction inherent

00:46:57.540 in democracy, of

00:46:58.840 course.

00:46:59.280 I mean, well, and

00:47:00.240 also what we were

00:47:00.880 talking about with,

00:47:02.080 with Batman, I

00:47:03.500 mean, the Joker

00:47:04.080 actually predicts

00:47:05.920 it, you know, when

00:47:06.480 he tells him earlier

00:47:07.360 in the film, he

00:47:08.120 says, oh, they'll

00:47:08.560 have to cast you

00:47:09.500 out.

00:47:10.420 Like a leopard.

00:47:12.080 Yeah.

00:47:12.600 I mean, of course

00:47:13.500 he ends up doing it

00:47:14.440 voluntarily, but

00:47:15.480 perhaps it's

00:47:16.020 because he knows

00:47:16.720 it's going to

00:47:17.120 happen sooner or

00:47:17.880 later anyway.

00:47:18.660 So he's just

00:47:19.160 like, okay, I'll

00:47:20.960 just embrace this.

00:47:22.620 Yeah.

00:47:22.700 The Joker was, was

00:47:24.520 very insightful

00:47:25.480 there because, because

00:47:27.020 Batman says in that

00:47:28.920 scene, in the

00:47:29.640 interrogation scene,

00:47:30.780 Batman says, you're

00:47:32.720 just a thug who

00:47:33.640 kills for money.

00:47:35.220 And, and the Joker

00:47:36.200 says, you're not one

00:47:37.040 of them.

00:47:37.780 Yeah.

00:47:38.080 He says, don't say

00:47:39.560 that he's, you're,

00:47:40.500 you're sounding like

00:47:41.320 them, but you're not

00:47:42.220 one of them, even if

00:47:43.320 you want to be that

00:47:44.680 really profound

00:47:45.840 because it shows

00:47:46.720 who Batman is

00:47:47.460 like Batman is

00:47:48.840 just trying to act

00:47:49.580 like a cop.

00:47:50.220 He's like, ah, he's

00:47:51.000 a thug who does

00:47:52.040 it for money, but

00:47:53.140 no, like the Joker

00:47:54.460 doesn't do it for

00:47:55.320 money.

00:47:55.620 That's the whole

00:47:56.060 point.

00:47:56.560 So bat, and, and,

00:47:57.960 and, and he's

00:47:58.660 like, look, all of

00:47:59.460 these guys that

00:48:00.240 you're trying to

00:48:00.740 act like, they're

00:48:01.660 just going to cast

00:48:02.400 you out.

00:48:02.940 Like you are a

00:48:03.740 freak and you, they

00:48:06.200 might like you now

00:48:07.520 because you're, you're,

00:48:08.860 you're doing the

00:48:09.560 dirty work that

00:48:11.000 they are either

00:48:12.320 unwilling to do or

00:48:14.120 incapable of doing

00:48:15.200 you're doing it for

00:48:16.160 them.

00:48:16.540 But the second they

00:48:18.120 don't find you

00:48:18.920 useful is the second

00:48:19.980 you are going to be

00:48:20.820 a criminal and

00:48:21.500 they're going to

00:48:21.820 hunt you down.

00:48:24.320 Yeah.

00:48:24.900 Which of course is

00:48:25.880 absolutely true.

00:48:26.860 Yeah.

00:48:28.440 Um, in the, in the

00:48:29.540 more recent, like

00:48:30.240 Batman, the

00:48:31.080 Superman, you know,

00:48:32.860 the, uh, Ben

00:48:34.900 Affleck's Batman

00:48:35.620 just says, he's

00:48:36.260 like, Alfred, we've

00:48:37.020 always been

00:48:37.540 criminals.

00:48:39.560 Uh, I

00:48:42.100 don't know.

00:48:42.260 Do you want to

00:48:42.560 talk about that?

00:48:43.200 The Batman, I

00:48:44.920 Batman's one rule

00:48:46.800 of not killing.

00:48:49.040 It does.

00:48:50.040 It's almost like it

00:48:51.080 gets to this

00:48:51.780 aspect that the

00:48:53.020 deep down, even

00:48:53.840 Batman's a liberal.

00:48:55.080 Yeah.

00:48:55.680 He doesn't even

00:48:56.520 kill the Joker.

00:48:58.020 Yeah.

00:48:58.600 Which is just

00:48:59.180 completely stupid.

00:49:00.460 He saves the

00:49:01.600 Joker.

00:49:02.500 It's a reference

00:49:03.560 to Tim Burton's

00:49:04.740 movie because, um,

00:49:06.500 in the first one,

00:49:07.880 um, Batman,

00:49:09.120 let's him

00:49:10.220 fall from

00:49:11.280 this high,

00:49:12.340 is it a

00:49:12.800 cathedral or

00:49:13.860 a very, very

00:49:15.120 tall building?

00:49:16.080 And this time

00:49:17.140 you think it's

00:49:18.060 going to be a

00:49:18.940 reference to

00:49:19.540 Burton, but

00:49:20.100 then there's a

00:49:21.000 kind of flip.

00:49:22.380 He, he

00:49:23.280 manages to

00:49:24.240 make him

00:49:24.940 hang, hang

00:49:27.440 from the

00:49:27.900 building and

00:49:28.640 say that he

00:49:29.620 should be, um,

00:49:30.500 in a padded

00:49:31.160 cell or something

00:49:31.960 like that.

00:49:32.940 And under the

00:49:33.920 control of the

00:49:34.680 right authorities.

00:49:35.500 And, you

00:49:36.760 know, we, when

00:49:37.460 we discussed

00:49:38.080 Batman Begins,

00:49:39.040 we say that, um,

00:49:41.300 you know, when

00:49:41.780 he's in, um,

00:49:43.680 China or

00:49:44.400 somewhere in

00:49:45.560 Asia and he,

00:49:46.400 he shows mercy

00:49:49.080 to a criminal

00:49:49.940 and then maybe

00:49:51.460 50 guys, 50

00:49:52.760 good guys die.

00:49:53.900 Right.

00:49:54.100 And at the

00:49:54.840 same time, I

00:49:56.360 mean, the

00:49:56.700 Joker has

00:49:57.380 killed maybe

00:49:58.300 at this point

00:49:59.960 tens or

00:50:01.100 hundreds of

00:50:01.860 people.

00:50:02.520 Yeah.

00:50:02.920 And it's

00:50:03.340 really important

00:50:04.040 for him to,

00:50:05.180 to make him

00:50:06.040 live so he

00:50:06.660 can rot in

00:50:07.980 a cell.

00:50:08.540 It's, it's

00:50:10.200 madness actually.

00:50:11.560 But it's a

00:50:12.280 very socially

00:50:12.880 conscious sort

00:50:13.920 of thing to

00:50:14.340 do.

00:50:15.060 Yeah.

00:50:15.320 He's got to

00:50:15.760 be sensible

00:50:16.400 to the

00:50:17.180 people.

00:50:20.600 You've got to

00:50:21.320 go before a

00:50:22.140 judge.

00:50:24.100 you know,

00:50:24.920 again, all

00:50:25.940 these judges

00:50:26.500 are corrupt.

00:50:27.280 We've kind of

00:50:27.580 proved that it

00:50:28.280 is funny that

00:50:29.120 he didn't save

00:50:30.360 Ra's racial

00:50:31.360 ghoul.

00:50:32.480 Yeah.

00:50:33.020 Yeah.

00:50:33.440 But he is

00:50:34.980 really cowardly

00:50:35.920 in this scene

00:50:36.440 because he

00:50:36.880 says, I'm

00:50:38.200 not going to

00:50:38.780 kill you, but

00:50:39.440 I'm not going

00:50:40.000 to save you

00:50:40.680 either.

00:50:41.320 Right.

00:50:41.940 And so he

00:50:42.600 literally saves

00:50:43.340 the Joker.

00:50:43.600 He can't pull

00:50:44.520 the trigger.

00:50:45.600 Right.

00:50:45.880 Yeah.

00:50:46.060 And he saves

00:50:46.560 the Joker.

00:50:47.140 Right.

00:50:48.220 But it is,

00:50:48.900 it is kind of,

00:50:49.500 it is that just

00:50:50.180 liberal soul to

00:50:51.420 Batman.

00:50:51.780 I, I've

00:50:52.400 heard some

00:50:52.700 people talk

00:50:53.160 about, um,

00:50:54.100 though he

00:50:54.400 doesn't want

00:50:54.820 to use a

00:50:55.300 gun because

00:50:56.120 that reminds

00:50:57.060 him of his

00:50:57.760 parents'

00:50:58.420 death.

00:50:58.980 And, and

00:50:59.560 I, I, I

00:51:00.160 get that.

00:51:00.720 I think that's

00:51:01.240 the kind of

00:51:01.520 Yeah, that

00:51:03.000 right.

00:51:03.520 But that, that's

00:51:04.440 kind of a

00:51:05.000 psychological

00:51:05.540 realization of

00:51:06.520 Batman, which

00:51:07.460 makes sense in

00:51:08.540 its way.

00:51:09.020 But, but in,

00:51:10.460 in the Nolan

00:51:11.040 verse, uh, Batman

00:51:13.380 can't kill for

00:51:14.460 this like deep

00:51:15.080 moral reason that,

00:51:16.780 that Batman is

00:51:18.020 a liberal, like

00:51:18.740 Batman ultimately

00:51:20.000 believes in the

00:51:21.420 potential in every

00:51:22.440 human being or

00:51:23.320 something.

00:51:23.560 I mean, it's, it,

00:51:24.820 again, it's just,

00:51:25.820 it, it's kind of

00:51:26.560 crazy.

00:51:27.000 I mean, it's a

00:51:27.540 paused Batman.

00:51:28.580 Do either of

00:51:31.160 you, have you,

00:51:31.740 either of you

00:51:32.280 ever read the

00:51:32.860 comics of Batman?

00:51:35.160 Yeah.

00:51:35.620 I mean, I used

00:51:36.160 to read them when

00:51:36.620 I was a kid.

00:51:37.200 I read them all

00:51:37.720 the time.

00:51:38.140 Does Batman kill

00:51:39.000 people in the

00:51:39.700 comic books?

00:51:40.500 Well, he did

00:51:41.740 early on.

00:51:42.860 This, at some

00:51:44.000 point, this all

00:51:44.700 changed where

00:51:46.280 there was this no

00:51:47.280 killing rule and

00:51:48.240 there were

00:51:48.500 oftentimes, uh,

00:51:50.160 kind of artful

00:51:51.040 ways of making

00:51:51.920 him not kill

00:51:52.540 someone, you

00:51:53.880 know, but, uh,

00:51:55.320 but, but early

00:51:56.160 on in, in the

00:51:56.880 very first Batman

00:51:57.940 comic,

00:51:58.580 uh, he throws

00:51:59.840 people into

00:52:00.500 chemical vats

00:52:01.340 and kills them

00:52:02.860 and he has

00:52:03.660 killed in, in

00:52:04.400 the comic books.

00:52:05.080 A lot of people

00:52:06.080 were mad at

00:52:07.200 Zack Snyder for,

00:52:08.540 you know, having

00:52:09.660 Batman just like

00:52:10.600 shoot people with

00:52:11.860 his plane, gun

00:52:13.400 on a plane, just

00:52:14.700 like, I mean, I

00:52:15.580 don't know if you

00:52:15.900 guys saw B,

00:52:16.940 Batman V Superman,

00:52:18.180 but, uh, you

00:52:20.020 know, he, he, he

00:52:21.120 flew the bat

00:52:21.980 wing and just

00:52:23.800 like, just blew

00:52:25.600 thugs away, you

00:52:27.420 know, without

00:52:27.840 even, you know,

00:52:29.200 thinking about

00:52:29.940 it.

00:52:30.160 So it's

00:52:30.500 definitely a

00:52:30.980 different version

00:52:31.620 of Batman, but

00:52:32.440 you know, it's

00:52:33.540 actually, it's, it's

00:52:34.720 totally legitimate.

00:52:36.100 Um, the, the

00:52:36.840 very early Batman

00:52:38.000 would just, would

00:52:38.900 just kill with

00:52:40.120 abandon and, and

00:52:41.360 it was similar

00:52:41.840 like the shadow,

00:52:42.760 uh, the, the

00:52:44.000 character that

00:52:44.700 probably most

00:52:45.700 inspired Batman.

00:52:46.600 I mean, he, he

00:52:47.640 carried revolve or

00:52:49.400 not revolvers, but

00:52:50.440 he, he carried

00:52:50.980 guns and would

00:52:51.840 just, just blow

00:52:52.940 criminals away.

00:52:54.920 Uh, so you

00:52:56.560 can tell that he

00:52:57.960 first came about

00:52:58.700 in the thirties,

00:52:59.520 right?

00:52:59.920 Yeah.

00:53:00.740 Yeah.

00:53:00.900 And people

00:53:01.180 wouldn't have

00:53:01.540 thought anything

00:53:02.140 that back then.

00:53:03.020 I mean, Oh,

00:53:03.600 they're bad guys.

00:53:04.600 Yeah.

00:53:06.440 Exactly.

00:53:07.680 Uh, it's, it's,

00:53:08.440 we, we've become

00:53:09.120 soft, but I think

00:53:09.980 Nolan, you could

00:53:11.260 say to his credit,

00:53:12.000 like he, he

00:53:12.880 turned the, he

00:53:13.840 turned the, that

00:53:14.800 into an ideology,

00:53:15.780 uh, you know,

00:53:17.380 where it's like

00:53:18.040 that, that is his

00:53:18.780 one rule.

00:53:19.720 And so he, even

00:53:20.780 Batman's liberal at

00:53:22.620 some level.

00:53:24.600 Oh, and of

00:53:25.500 course he, he

00:53:26.100 gives the code to

00:53:28.520 Morgan Freeman so

00:53:29.580 that, you know,

00:53:30.920 the, the Patriot

00:53:32.300 Act device, whatever

00:53:33.720 it is, you know,

00:53:34.740 self-destructs.

00:53:36.140 I mean, come on,

00:53:37.040 that's, that's

00:53:37.480 like, he's only a

00:53:38.460 liberal, but he's

00:53:39.240 like, uh, you

00:53:40.360 know, basically a

00:53:41.280 Bush era Democrats

00:53:43.000 and that's, yeah.

00:53:44.520 We'll use this

00:53:45.480 once because it's

00:53:46.700 a bad man, but

00:53:48.300 after we get

00:53:48.840 rid of the

00:53:49.240 Joker, all of

00:53:50.100 the cowardly

00:53:50.780 liberals of

00:53:51.320 Gotham will be

00:53:52.780 free in their

00:53:53.960 privacy.

00:53:58.080 Yes, because

00:53:59.980 that's the, you

00:54:00.740 know, we must

00:54:01.340 honor people's

00:54:02.900 right to, you

00:54:03.780 know, their

00:54:03.960 privacy that

00:54:05.020 comes before

00:54:05.920 anything else.

00:54:07.060 Right.

00:54:08.020 I mean, it

00:54:08.520 makes you, it

00:54:09.360 makes you

00:54:09.760 appreciate James

00:54:10.840 Bond too.

00:54:12.320 Uh, granted

00:54:13.380 he didn't do

00:54:14.160 this at the

00:54:14.640 end, at the

00:54:15.220 end of the

00:54:15.640 last movie, he

00:54:16.240 said, I'm out

00:54:16.640 of bullets.

00:54:17.060 He doesn't

00:54:17.400 kill Blofeld,

00:54:17.840 but at

00:54:18.700 least the

00:54:19.020 James Bond

00:54:19.640 of old, um,

00:54:21.240 you know, he'll

00:54:22.040 just push

00:54:23.020 someone off a

00:54:23.720 cliff or just

00:54:24.480 shoot them in

00:54:25.660 cold blood and

00:54:26.660 there is

00:54:27.460 something to

00:54:28.160 masculine about

00:54:29.500 willing to do

00:54:30.620 it.

00:54:30.900 You know, he's

00:54:31.220 licensed to

00:54:31.980 kill.

00:54:32.520 He takes

00:54:33.320 pleasure in

00:54:34.120 killing the

00:54:34.680 enemy at the

00:54:35.920 end of the

00:54:36.240 film, you

00:54:36.680 know.

00:54:37.800 But, uh, but

00:54:39.460 there's something

00:54:40.260 about Nolan's

00:54:41.140 Batman where he

00:54:41.820 can't do that.

00:54:43.000 He, he, he

00:54:44.000 can't take

00:54:44.580 pleasure.

00:54:45.060 Like, uh, you

00:54:45.720 could imagine a

00:54:46.440 scene where

00:54:46.900 Batman grabs the

00:54:48.860 Joker and just

00:54:49.820 throws him to

00:54:50.700 his death, you

00:54:51.860 know, uh, you

00:54:53.120 know, uh, because

00:54:53.800 they're in, they're

00:54:54.420 in a construction

00:54:55.000 site or, you

00:54:56.380 know, like gets

00:54:57.300 Raz al Ghul and

00:54:58.280 just strangles him

00:54:59.200 with his bare

00:54:59.680 hands.

00:55:00.000 like that would

00:55:00.780 be interesting and

00:55:01.960 something that

00:55:02.820 James Bond would

00:55:03.540 do.

00:55:03.880 But this, again,

00:55:04.900 the Nolan

00:55:05.260 Batman, he's, he's

00:55:07.120 this just, he's

00:55:08.520 just this liberal at

00:55:09.520 some level.

00:55:10.220 And it's almost

00:55:11.100 sexual because he

00:55:13.120 doesn't have sex

00:55:14.160 unlike other

00:55:15.160 versions of

00:55:15.900 Batman, like, uh,

00:55:17.000 Michael

00:55:17.300 Keaton, Keaton's,

00:55:18.380 for example, he

00:55:19.800 doesn't have sex

00:55:20.640 and he doesn't

00:55:21.280 kill.

00:55:22.200 And, uh, he

00:55:23.540 also has a

00:55:24.120 relation between

00:55:25.340 the two as we,

00:55:26.700 you know, it's

00:55:28.120 heroes and

00:55:28.800 senators, but it's

00:55:29.740 also what you

00:55:30.460 find in, uh,

00:55:31.360 A Clockwork

00:55:31.940 Orange, for

00:55:32.580 example, he

00:55:33.160 can't, he can't

00:55:34.260 defend himself, but

00:55:35.260 he, he can't

00:55:36.620 have sex either.

00:55:37.880 Yeah.

00:55:38.560 And, uh,

00:55:39.400 liberal white

00:55:40.680 man.

00:55:41.620 Yeah.

00:55:42.420 Yeah.

00:55:43.000 Yeah.

00:55:43.360 It's an, it's

00:55:44.140 an allegory of, uh,

00:55:45.800 of the late, late

00:55:46.900 Western man.

00:55:47.720 I think we, we

00:55:49.840 see him have

00:55:51.200 sex in the whole

00:55:52.060 trilogy only once

00:55:53.280 with, uh,

00:55:54.640 uh, yeah,

00:55:56.640 Marion

00:55:57.060 Cotillard's

00:55:57.760 character.

00:55:58.260 I had forgotten

00:55:59.380 the name and

00:56:00.620 it's only because

00:56:02.000 temporarily he's

00:56:03.480 not Batman or

00:56:04.560 Bruce Wayne

00:56:05.060 either because

00:56:05.580 he's, uh, he's

00:56:06.400 just a bum at

00:56:07.560 this point.

00:56:08.640 That's a good

00:56:08.820 point.

00:56:09.500 The one time he's

00:56:10.900 able to consummate

00:56:12.480 something is when

00:56:14.360 he loses both

00:56:15.540 identities.

00:56:17.000 Yeah.

00:56:17.240 When he's not

00:56:18.000 overburdened by

00:56:19.220 all these two

00:56:21.060 responsibilities as

00:56:22.600 Bruce Wayne and

00:56:23.440 Batman.

00:56:23.800 Right.

00:56:24.740 Cause he's neither

00:56:25.380 at this point.

00:56:27.480 But when he's

00:56:28.620 Bruce Wayne and

00:56:29.240 Batman, he's

00:56:29.820 always holding

00:56:30.580 out.

00:56:30.980 He's like one

00:56:31.740 day, he's

00:56:32.140 important.

00:56:33.000 One day Batman

00:56:33.840 won't be

00:56:34.520 necessary.

00:56:35.920 And then we

00:56:36.420 have sex.

00:56:38.000 Maybe, maybe I'm,

00:56:39.860 I'm in the friend

00:56:40.500 zone now, but

00:56:41.300 maybe we can

00:56:42.980 lay tons of

00:56:44.620 bitches.

00:56:44.980 I could ask

00:56:47.740 for her consent

00:56:48.640 and then we

00:56:49.520 could make sweet

00:56:50.340 love before I

00:56:54.240 take rush action.

00:56:56.020 Is this okay?

00:57:00.540 Can I call you

00:57:01.820 back in three

00:57:02.560 days?

00:57:07.320 I, I did, I

00:57:09.780 didn't buy dinner

00:57:10.840 in order to have

00:57:11.800 sex.

00:57:12.280 Trust me.

00:57:12.940 I truly love

00:57:13.740 you.

00:57:14.980 You know, if

00:57:16.940 you wouldn't

00:57:17.280 mind, maybe we

00:57:18.120 could go back

00:57:18.720 to Wayne

00:57:19.140 Manor and

00:57:19.920 well, you

00:57:20.920 know, it's

00:57:26.400 just this

00:57:26.820 infinite man.

00:57:27.700 It's true.

00:57:29.000 Uh, that

00:57:29.540 was actually

00:57:30.060 a comment

00:57:30.500 Nietzsche

00:57:31.760 once made

00:57:32.400 about Wagner's

00:57:33.240 operas.

00:57:33.980 He was like,

00:57:34.700 notice that in

00:57:35.700 Wagner's operas,

00:57:36.680 no heroes are

00:57:37.420 ever shown having

00:57:38.100 sex.

00:57:38.640 And he says

00:57:39.140 that's because

00:57:39.620 they're, they

00:57:40.180 can't.

00:57:41.080 Right.

00:57:41.240 He criticized

00:57:45.300 Wagner for

00:57:46.020 having heroes

00:57:46.920 who weren't

00:57:47.240 too pure, but

00:57:48.260 yeah, exactly.

00:57:49.300 But if you

00:57:49.740 think about

00:57:50.180 like the

00:57:50.880 other, that's

00:57:51.800 why Wagner is

00:57:52.660 so different.

00:57:53.160 Like if you

00:57:53.440 think about

00:57:53.740 other operas,

00:57:54.420 like a Verdi

00:57:55.000 character or

00:57:55.680 Rossini character,

00:57:56.620 or, you

00:57:57.760 know, like

00:57:58.220 Bizet's

00:57:59.080 Carmen or

00:57:59.780 something, it's

00:58:00.180 all about

00:58:00.880 sexual energy

00:58:01.980 and frenzy

00:58:03.020 and stuff like

00:58:04.280 that.

00:58:04.540 But yeah,

00:58:05.080 and these,

00:58:05.400 and these

00:58:05.680 kind of like

00:58:06.100 idealized pure

00:58:07.200 people, they're,

00:58:08.640 they're, they're

00:58:09.180 angels without

00:58:10.140 genitalia.

00:58:14.600 But yeah, I

00:58:15.600 know, I mean,

00:58:16.000 look, I mean,

00:58:16.500 we're, we're

00:58:16.920 kind of joking

00:58:17.520 about this, but

00:58:18.120 I, I think

00:58:19.240 like the, the

00:58:21.100 reason why it's

00:58:22.000 funny is because

00:58:22.580 it's so true.

00:58:23.440 It's, it's, it

00:58:24.200 seems to get at

00:58:25.560 the essence of

00:58:26.520 his character.

00:58:29.180 Yeah.

00:58:29.620 And only

00:58:30.360 knowing he's a

00:58:31.360 dark one.

00:58:33.360 Oh, sorry.

00:58:34.040 Right.

00:58:35.600 Yeah.

00:58:36.140 No, he's just

00:58:37.140 in, in other

00:58:38.020 versions.

00:58:39.180 Michael

00:58:39.440 Keaton is

00:58:40.000 not, uh,

00:58:42.060 he's, he's

00:58:42.920 a kind of

00:58:43.380 outcast for

00:58:44.860 Batman, but I

00:58:45.680 like this guy,

00:58:46.560 but, but at

00:58:48.260 least he, he

00:58:49.620 has girlfriends

00:58:50.300 and yeah, he

00:58:51.880 kills some

00:58:52.440 suggs, uh,

00:58:53.500 especially the

00:58:54.140 main one, the

00:58:55.000 main ones, because

00:58:55.880 he also kills a

00:58:56.880 penguin.

00:58:57.740 I'm not sure.

00:58:59.180 I don't really

00:59:00.120 remember the

00:59:01.000 second one, but,

00:59:01.940 uh, and it's

00:59:03.940 only Nolens.

00:59:06.240 Yeah.

00:59:06.760 So that's

00:59:08.380 why it

00:59:08.820 really sets

00:59:09.560 this trilogy

00:59:11.040 apart from

00:59:12.180 the other

00:59:14.140 comic and

00:59:14.960 movies.

00:59:15.660 And I

00:59:16.940 think that

00:59:17.260 was a

00:59:17.560 series to

00:59:18.280 a TV

00:59:18.640 series.

00:59:19.940 And I

00:59:20.740 think he

00:59:21.160 used to

00:59:21.680 kill, um,

00:59:23.320 criminals in

00:59:24.480 this series

00:59:25.040 too.

00:59:25.280 so it's

00:59:25.840 really about

00:59:26.560 Nolan.

00:59:28.320 I do

00:59:29.480 believe it's

00:59:30.180 particular to

00:59:31.080 Nolan.

00:59:31.440 I think in

00:59:32.240 the 1990s

00:59:33.480 Batman, the

00:59:34.120 animated series,

00:59:34.900 I don't

00:59:35.580 believe he

00:59:36.040 kills, uh,

00:59:38.900 even the

00:59:39.460 older one,

00:59:40.080 because there

00:59:40.860 was a new

00:59:41.540 one and maybe

00:59:43.020 one which was

00:59:44.580 made in the

00:59:45.900 eighties or

00:59:47.100 seventies.

00:59:48.360 I'm not sure

00:59:49.100 I was a kid

00:59:49.880 when I was

00:59:50.400 watching that,

00:59:51.160 but yeah,

00:59:52.660 it might be

00:59:53.140 different, but

00:59:53.580 whatever the

00:59:54.280 case, this

00:59:55.040 is, this is

00:59:55.680 something that's

00:59:56.660 with Nolan's

00:59:57.640 version.

00:59:57.920 It's, it's

00:59:58.420 intense.

00:59:58.880 Like he, he

00:59:59.940 doesn't make it

01:00:00.640 just like a

01:00:01.180 passing aspect

01:00:02.380 of Batman.

01:00:02.940 He almost

01:00:03.220 makes it the

01:00:03.720 core of his

01:00:04.560 being, uh,

01:00:06.800 is that lack

01:00:07.600 of consummation.

01:00:08.700 Uh, you

01:00:09.300 can't kill and

01:00:09.940 you can't have

01:00:10.420 sex.

01:00:11.460 So less

01:00:11.860 of essence.

01:00:12.820 Yeah.

01:00:13.620 Yeah.

01:00:16.340 Uh, but it

01:00:17.420 is like this

01:00:18.020 almost Puritan

01:00:19.180 vision.

01:00:20.160 It's, it's,

01:00:20.900 uh, very,

01:00:22.620 very weird.

01:00:24.580 You know,

01:00:25.360 Albert, the

01:00:26.740 one thing I

01:00:27.440 have to do

01:00:28.180 is deny them

01:00:29.320 my essence.

01:00:31.380 Well, we

01:00:32.080 didn't get it

01:00:32.620 this, you

01:00:32.940 know, one

01:00:33.320 of the funny

01:00:33.900 things about

01:00:34.520 Batman is

01:00:35.120 that he's

01:00:35.360 always accused

01:00:36.260 of being

01:00:36.820 flamboyantly

01:00:37.580 gay.

01:00:38.400 And, and

01:00:39.140 there's always

01:00:39.500 been something

01:00:40.000 to that.

01:00:40.620 Like, uh,

01:00:41.540 um, actually

01:00:42.140 when, when

01:00:42.860 comics were,

01:00:43.860 uh, being,

01:00:44.840 uh, censored

01:00:46.060 and persecuted

01:00:46.980 by the government,

01:00:47.960 they weren't

01:00:48.580 literally censored.

01:00:49.540 They kind of

01:00:49.880 engaged in

01:00:50.440 self-censorship

01:00:51.420 and, uh,

01:00:52.720 they, they,

01:00:53.100 they stopped

01:00:53.600 doing horror

01:00:54.240 comics and

01:00:54.920 things like

01:00:55.180 that.

01:00:55.320 But one of

01:00:55.760 the most

01:00:56.000 favorite things,

01:00:57.100 I believe the

01:00:57.720 man is named

01:00:58.140 Wortham, um,

01:00:59.360 he was a

01:00:59.840 Jewish Freudian

01:01:00.980 intellectual who

01:01:02.060 was attacking

01:01:03.120 comics, you

01:01:04.060 know, it's kind

01:01:05.180 of odd in a way,

01:01:05.880 but he, he was,

01:01:07.200 he was always

01:01:07.660 accusing, he

01:01:08.280 goes, uh, he

01:01:09.040 accused Batman

01:01:09.820 of depicting

01:01:11.080 homosexuality where,

01:01:12.600 you know, Batman

01:01:13.500 and Robin, you

01:01:14.380 have this bachelor

01:01:15.660 living with a

01:01:16.420 young ward and

01:01:17.340 they dress up in

01:01:18.180 costumes and

01:01:19.020 things like that.

01:01:19.900 And, and

01:01:20.140 obviously things

01:01:20.740 like, uh,

01:01:21.340 Wonder Woman,

01:01:22.520 there's clearly

01:01:23.280 an S&M aspect

01:01:24.380 to all those

01:01:25.040 images of tying

01:01:26.940 people up, you

01:01:28.160 know, you

01:01:29.260 know, uh,

01:01:29.680 dominatrix.

01:01:30.480 So, I mean,

01:01:31.000 you know, there's,

01:01:32.020 there's, there's a

01:01:33.320 kernel of truth

01:01:34.020 to all this,

01:01:34.540 but, uh,

01:01:35.660 but in, in, in

01:01:36.760 the 60s Batman,

01:01:38.380 Batman was

01:01:38.880 certainly not

01:01:39.360 gay, but, but

01:01:40.560 there was this

01:01:41.320 camp flamboyance

01:01:43.160 aspect of the

01:01:43.840 whole thing.

01:01:44.800 Uh, but in, in

01:01:46.000 the 2000s Batman

01:01:47.260 and in Christopher

01:01:47.940 Nolan's Batman,

01:01:48.740 it, it, there

01:01:49.360 is this almost

01:01:49.940 puritanical,

01:01:51.620 totally non-sexual

01:01:53.400 aspect, uh, to

01:01:55.600 the character

01:01:56.180 that, that's

01:01:56.720 rather odd, uh,

01:01:59.180 when you think

01:01:59.780 about it.

01:02:01.180 Well, although

01:02:01.980 on, on the other

01:02:02.840 hand, in, in

01:02:03.440 the Nolan film,

01:02:04.300 and where we do

01:02:04.840 see him with

01:02:05.660 like all those

01:02:06.360 Russian

01:02:06.860 ballerinas and

01:02:08.120 so forth, and

01:02:08.860 I can't believe

01:02:09.940 he doesn't have

01:02:10.520 sex with them.

01:02:11.180 Well, do we

01:02:11.560 know that though?

01:02:12.480 I don't think he

01:02:13.080 does.

01:02:13.400 I think it's all

01:02:13.920 for show.

01:02:15.420 Okay.

01:02:16.100 Yeah.

01:02:16.400 I mean, it's

01:02:16.760 kind of unclear,

01:02:17.820 but.

01:02:19.420 And the

01:02:19.860 ballerina flirts

01:02:21.000 with Harvey Dent

01:02:22.040 actually.

01:02:22.860 Yeah.

01:02:24.700 Uh, in front of

01:02:26.060 him and he

01:02:26.640 doesn't even, you

01:02:27.960 know, object or

01:02:29.140 say anything.

01:02:29.820 Of course, it's

01:02:30.960 because he's in

01:02:31.600 love with, um,

01:02:33.100 Rachel.

01:02:34.680 Although she's

01:02:35.520 not as cute as,

01:02:36.540 uh, Katie

01:02:37.460 Holmes, but, uh,

01:02:38.740 that's another

01:02:39.240 point.

01:02:39.720 I was going to

01:02:39.860 say that.

01:02:40.940 Yeah.

01:02:41.300 Yeah.

01:02:41.820 She's really

01:02:42.540 ugly.

01:02:43.060 It's a big

01:02:43.700 come down from

01:02:45.020 Katie.

01:02:45.360 Yeah.

01:02:45.940 Yeah.

01:02:47.760 Although I have

01:02:48.760 to say, um, Katie

01:02:50.220 Holmes is such an

01:02:51.380 annoying person.

01:02:53.420 Like just the, her

01:02:54.500 line readings are

01:02:56.220 just remind me of

01:02:57.000 some just annoying

01:02:57.900 office bitch.

01:02:58.760 She's always

01:02:59.160 nodding, you

01:03:00.540 know, when she,

01:03:01.180 when she speaks

01:03:01.880 and it's really

01:03:02.740 bad acting.

01:03:03.780 Yeah.

01:03:04.420 Listen, Bruce,

01:03:05.380 you just don't

01:03:05.940 understand it.

01:03:06.800 The system is

01:03:07.480 broken.

01:03:08.180 These people out

01:03:09.020 here, like some

01:03:10.380 of just annoying,

01:03:11.360 like self-righteous

01:03:12.460 liberals.

01:03:13.100 I, uh, you

01:03:14.780 know, I remember

01:03:15.320 there was one thing

01:03:16.020 where she was

01:03:16.500 like, she wanted

01:03:17.240 to get into where

01:03:18.400 Arkham was.

01:03:19.020 She was like, I

01:03:19.620 am an assistant

01:03:20.480 district attorney.

01:03:21.340 Like she's just

01:03:22.020 such a bitch.

01:03:23.320 But, um,

01:03:24.680 Glillenhall, who's,

01:03:25.940 I guess is related

01:03:26.560 to the Jake

01:03:27.820 Glillenhall?

01:03:28.400 What is her name?

01:03:28.920 Yeah, yeah.

01:03:29.180 She's, she's,

01:03:29.920 yeah.

01:03:30.520 Yeah.

01:03:31.120 Um, I would say

01:03:32.300 she's definitely

01:03:32.980 not as attractive,

01:03:34.080 but, uh, she's

01:03:35.880 definitely not as

01:03:36.940 annoying and bitchy.

01:03:38.180 She's, she's kind

01:03:38.800 of a warm

01:03:39.620 personality.

01:03:41.140 I, you know,

01:03:42.720 I generally like

01:03:43.500 her, but.

01:03:45.100 Although to, to

01:03:45.860 get back to the

01:03:46.560 sex thing, that's

01:03:47.340 one way in which

01:03:48.180 the Nolan films are

01:03:49.260 very unrealistic

01:03:50.060 is I've got to

01:03:50.760 believe if, if

01:03:51.700 Rachel in real

01:03:53.540 life, you know,

01:03:54.480 there was actually

01:03:55.100 a Batman and

01:03:55.820 actually Rachel and

01:03:57.660 he, she found

01:03:58.580 out that, you

01:03:59.300 know, this, this

01:03:59.960 guy was, you

01:04:01.080 know, the secret

01:04:01.920 superhero.

01:04:02.860 Of course she

01:04:03.840 would want to

01:04:04.260 have sex with

01:04:04.840 him.

01:04:05.060 I mean, that's

01:04:05.480 just the dynamic.

01:04:07.200 I mean, it's so

01:04:07.740 unrealistic.

01:04:08.540 Oh, I can't be

01:04:09.480 with you while

01:04:10.240 you're doing

01:04:10.720 these things.

01:04:11.420 I mean, that's so

01:04:12.380 one night stand.

01:04:14.900 Right.

01:04:15.660 Yeah, exactly.

01:04:17.540 Maybe.

01:04:17.880 But in a way, it's

01:04:18.880 realistic that she

01:04:19.980 doesn't want to

01:04:21.920 really be with

01:04:23.020 him because at

01:04:24.880 any point he could

01:04:25.680 die or be, you

01:04:27.880 know, jailed or

01:04:29.440 yeah.

01:04:30.400 But what John's

01:04:31.200 getting at is they

01:04:32.300 like the bad boy.

01:04:33.400 They want to be with

01:04:34.280 the alpha.

01:04:34.980 They don't want to

01:04:35.440 be with the beta.

01:04:36.320 Yeah.

01:04:36.520 But, you know, I've

01:04:38.020 been reading all

01:04:38.780 these blogs for a

01:04:40.460 while.

01:04:41.440 And when you take

01:04:44.080 a deep look, which

01:04:45.400 these guys don't,

01:04:47.960 you see that you

01:04:48.940 have many women,

01:04:50.260 even attractive

01:04:51.220 women with

01:04:51.860 betas, maybe not

01:04:55.080 in their early

01:04:56.460 twenties, but

01:04:57.100 later.

01:04:57.920 And eventually

01:04:58.900 it's with these

01:05:01.780 guys that they

01:05:02.760 have children.

01:05:04.360 And, you know, a

01:05:05.940 few years back,

01:05:07.220 Jack Donovan

01:05:08.020 said that his

01:05:09.820 alpha friends, I

01:05:11.500 don't know if they

01:05:12.020 were heterosexual,

01:05:13.980 but his alpha

01:05:15.280 friends were banging

01:05:16.800 strippers with

01:05:17.820 condoms on.

01:05:19.300 And, you know,

01:05:20.900 it's more, I

01:05:23.860 find this more to

01:05:25.520 the point than

01:05:26.460 manosphere things

01:05:28.220 from, you know,

01:05:30.500 liars.

01:05:31.400 I can't believe

01:05:32.460 you're criticizing

01:05:33.240 the manosphere that

01:05:34.640 produced such

01:05:35.700 philosophically deep

01:05:36.980 articles like

01:05:37.880 10 ways to

01:05:39.700 screw Thai

01:05:40.780 women on

01:05:42.640 your spring

01:05:44.220 birth.

01:05:44.660 The sixth one

01:05:45.500 will make you

01:05:46.480 You won't believe

01:05:47.680 the sixth one.

01:05:54.980 All these

01:05:55.840 clickbait articles,

01:05:57.180 yeah.

01:05:57.580 I've been reading

01:05:58.540 that and there's

01:06:00.540 truth to it, but

01:06:01.920 it's only

01:06:02.580 superficial

01:06:03.280 truth.

01:06:05.720 Betas ultimately

01:06:07.160 do reproduce

01:06:08.240 themselves.

01:06:08.900 I mean, it's

01:06:09.520 like whatever we

01:06:11.100 want to say about

01:06:12.140 cucks, you know,

01:06:13.640 like a typical

01:06:14.420 Christian or Mormon

01:06:16.320 living in Utah

01:06:17.180 who's totally

01:06:18.320 goofy and hates

01:06:19.740 Donald Trump and

01:06:20.700 votes for Ted

01:06:21.380 Cruz and brings in

01:06:22.600 refugees and blah,

01:06:23.740 blah, blah.

01:06:24.440 You know, whatever

01:06:25.460 you want to say

01:06:26.260 about them, I

01:06:26.960 guarantee you they

01:06:27.680 have more children

01:06:28.540 than most of

01:06:30.000 alt-right Twitter

01:06:30.720 combined.

01:06:32.640 Yeah.

01:06:34.660 Which is maybe

01:06:35.900 dysgenic.

01:06:37.760 It could be.

01:06:39.320 You know, it is

01:06:39.980 the beta that are

01:06:41.120 stable, but then

01:06:42.100 to get back to

01:06:43.700 some of the themes

01:06:44.360 we're talking about,

01:06:45.000 it's ultimately the

01:06:46.040 beta that is

01:06:47.660 totally incapable

01:06:48.800 of confronting

01:06:49.780 an enemy as

01:06:50.920 well.

01:06:52.540 You need the

01:06:53.500 alpha.

01:06:53.860 Like the guy who

01:06:53.880 puts the trigger

01:06:54.200 down.

01:06:55.000 Yeah, exactly.

01:06:55.580 You need both

01:06:57.200 to have a

01:06:57.900 society.

01:06:58.800 Yeah.

01:06:58.920 I don't know

01:07:01.140 if we can

01:07:01.800 tie it to,

01:07:03.460 you know,

01:07:04.780 the Nordic

01:07:06.440 and

01:07:06.860 hunter-gatherer

01:07:08.260 theories,

01:07:09.780 but there's

01:07:10.440 something like

01:07:11.080 it.

01:07:12.100 You need

01:07:13.040 exceptional

01:07:13.620 figures like

01:07:14.500 Batman,

01:07:15.040 but you

01:07:15.940 couldn't build

01:07:16.560 a society

01:07:17.240 on it.

01:07:17.840 And when

01:07:18.400 comes the

01:07:19.720 time to

01:07:20.120 defend it,

01:07:20.700 you need

01:07:21.140 this character.

01:07:23.460 But when

01:07:23.960 it comes to

01:07:25.060 paving roads,

01:07:26.220 it's better

01:07:26.900 to have the

01:07:27.520 guy on the

01:07:28.080 boat.

01:07:28.360 You know,

01:07:29.440 this ugly guy

01:07:30.280 on the

01:07:30.580 boat.

01:07:31.580 Yeah.

01:07:32.180 Because they

01:07:32.800 pay taxes

01:07:33.500 and they

01:07:35.580 actually,

01:07:36.340 yeah,

01:07:37.260 pave roads,

01:07:38.260 build

01:07:38.460 hospitals.

01:07:40.300 Yeah.

01:07:40.740 Yeah,

01:07:41.120 absolutely.

01:07:41.820 I think

01:07:42.200 that's...

01:07:43.580 We need

01:07:44.120 a complex

01:07:44.960 vision of

01:07:45.520 society and

01:07:46.300 not a

01:07:46.740 kind of

01:07:47.120 abstract and

01:07:49.000 idealized and

01:07:50.460 a bit

01:07:51.620 silly

01:07:52.700 vision of

01:07:54.400 it.

01:07:54.540 Yeah,

01:07:56.440 absolutely.

01:07:56.920 I think

01:07:57.180 we need

01:07:57.440 a multilayered

01:07:58.060 society.

01:07:58.540 I think

01:07:59.040 Nolan is

01:07:59.800 saying that

01:08:00.400 there is

01:08:04.160 going to be

01:08:04.480 this exceptional

01:08:05.280 force that

01:08:06.180 is Batman

01:08:06.680 that undergirds

01:08:08.320 society and

01:08:09.020 that society

01:08:09.480 has to break

01:08:10.140 its own rules

01:08:10.860 in order to

01:08:11.420 maintain them

01:08:12.040 and so on.

01:08:13.260 I just

01:08:14.000 think it's

01:08:14.400 I think

01:08:15.740 it just

01:08:16.020 makes me

01:08:18.600 raise an

01:08:19.220 eyebrow,

01:08:19.880 makes us

01:08:20.320 skeptical

01:08:20.740 from the

01:08:22.880 context in

01:08:23.820 which these

01:08:24.260 films were

01:08:24.700 made because

01:08:25.840 these are

01:08:26.620 Bush era

01:08:27.440 films.

01:08:28.600 Yeah,

01:08:29.080 like the

01:08:29.560 Batman's the

01:08:30.320 9-11

01:08:30.920 Batman,

01:08:32.060 like okay,

01:08:32.480 we have to

01:08:33.100 go and

01:08:33.820 defeat the

01:08:34.320 enemy but

01:08:34.900 as soon as

01:08:35.400 that's

01:08:35.640 accomplished,

01:08:37.240 you know,

01:08:37.600 then we come

01:08:38.120 home and

01:08:38.640 become liberals

01:08:39.260 again.

01:08:39.820 Yeah,

01:08:40.140 exactly.

01:08:40.700 It was sort

01:08:41.200 of the whole

01:08:41.560 idea behind

01:08:42.300 the war on

01:08:42.940 terror.

01:08:43.880 Well,

01:08:44.040 I guess it

01:08:44.360 still is to

01:08:45.140 an extent.

01:08:45.900 Yeah.

01:08:46.700 People aren't

01:08:47.480 believing it

01:08:48.060 quite as much.

01:08:48.880 Yeah,

01:08:49.360 yeah.

01:08:49.680 And so I

01:08:50.140 do think

01:08:50.780 there is a

01:08:51.220 connection

01:08:51.520 between Bane

01:08:52.500 as like

01:08:53.060 a conservative

01:08:55.220 nightmare of

01:08:57.400 Occupy Wall

01:08:58.120 Street or

01:08:58.720 something.

01:09:00.380 And so

01:09:01.040 these are

01:09:01.820 conservative

01:09:02.360 films maybe

01:09:03.080 in a good

01:09:04.380 and a bad

01:09:04.880 way.

01:09:06.840 But again,

01:09:07.640 if I were

01:09:08.740 to say

01:09:09.040 if there's

01:09:10.160 a message

01:09:10.800 to Nolan's,

01:09:12.440 to the

01:09:13.180 Dark Knight

01:09:13.680 in particular,

01:09:15.780 but the

01:09:16.080 whole series,

01:09:17.620 it is that

01:09:18.540 you have

01:09:20.480 to lie.

01:09:21.380 Like sometimes

01:09:21.960 the truth,

01:09:22.580 I think

01:09:22.960 Alfred says

01:09:23.860 sometimes the

01:09:25.280 truth isn't

01:09:25.860 good enough.

01:09:28.340 You're going

01:09:29.000 to have to

01:09:29.640 lie.

01:09:30.400 You're going

01:09:30.700 to have to

01:09:31.180 break rules

01:09:32.160 in order to

01:09:34.100 maintain rules.

01:09:35.060 There's got to

01:09:35.640 be hypocrisy.

01:09:36.800 Maybe hypocrisy

01:09:37.640 is a good idea.

01:09:38.160 When we hear

01:09:39.100 the word

01:09:39.420 hypocrisy,

01:09:40.220 we instinctually

01:09:41.080 say,

01:09:41.480 oh,

01:09:41.700 that's terrible.

01:09:42.400 No one

01:09:42.720 should be

01:09:42.980 hypocritical.

01:09:44.260 So on.

01:09:44.900 But I think

01:09:45.380 this movie

01:09:45.820 is actually

01:09:46.380 a grand

01:09:47.980 defense of

01:09:49.260 hypocrisy.

01:09:51.400 That,

01:09:51.880 you know,

01:09:52.280 Harvey Dent

01:09:52.920 has to be

01:09:53.600 hypocritical.

01:09:54.640 Harvey Dent

01:09:55.180 was at his

01:09:55.600 best when he

01:09:56.240 was lying

01:09:57.020 for Batman

01:09:57.620 and saying,

01:09:58.100 I am the

01:09:58.560 Batman,

01:09:59.260 take me

01:09:59.620 away.

01:10:00.220 He was

01:10:00.500 basically

01:10:00.760 saying,

01:10:01.040 I'm going

01:10:01.280 to sacrifice

01:10:01.780 myself so

01:10:02.580 that Batman

01:10:03.200 can do his

01:10:04.060 dirty work.

01:10:05.680 You know,

01:10:05.900 Bruce Wayne

01:10:06.540 has to wear

01:10:07.620 a mask.

01:10:08.220 He has to,

01:10:09.060 you know,

01:10:09.560 he's the

01:10:10.080 good capitalist

01:10:10.940 that maintains

01:10:12.020 order by

01:10:12.880 breaking the

01:10:13.680 rules and,

01:10:14.820 you know,

01:10:15.180 illegally using

01:10:16.100 arms and

01:10:16.960 brutalizing

01:10:17.900 criminals and

01:10:18.640 so on.

01:10:20.180 I don't know

01:10:20.980 if hypocrisy

01:10:21.860 is the right

01:10:22.440 word,

01:10:22.800 though,

01:10:23.000 Richard,

01:10:23.380 because I'm

01:10:24.320 using it

01:10:24.800 ironically,

01:10:25.440 believe me.

01:10:26.560 Well,

01:10:26.740 I was thinking,

01:10:27.320 I think Schmidt

01:10:28.140 is a better

01:10:28.740 way of

01:10:29.080 understanding

01:10:29.540 because,

01:10:29.880 you know,

01:10:30.000 there's the

01:10:30.540 exception,

01:10:31.980 which he

01:10:33.460 considered to

01:10:34.220 be,

01:10:34.500 well,

01:10:34.620 not just

01:10:34.960 democracy,

01:10:35.520 but he

01:10:36.340 considered to

01:10:36.940 be essential

01:10:37.500 to the

01:10:38.160 functioning of

01:10:38.820 any state.

01:10:40.080 I agree.

01:10:40.720 I'm saying

01:10:41.500 that sometimes

01:10:42.320 you don't want

01:10:43.600 to always say

01:10:44.520 what you do

01:10:45.140 and do what

01:10:45.640 you say.

01:10:46.680 Oh,

01:10:46.860 yeah,

01:10:47.180 yeah.

01:10:47.460 And in a way,

01:10:49.000 we as liberals,

01:10:50.500 because we're

01:10:50.960 marinating in

01:10:51.900 this world just

01:10:52.380 as much as

01:10:52.780 anyone,

01:10:53.560 we do say,

01:10:54.260 that's so

01:10:54.780 hypocritical,

01:10:55.500 it's so bad,

01:10:56.060 but I think

01:10:56.780 Nolan is offering

01:10:58.000 a kind of

01:10:59.420 wisdom that

01:11:00.960 you have to

01:11:01.740 be hypocritical.

01:11:02.880 You can't do

01:11:03.700 what you say

01:11:04.380 and you can't

01:11:05.060 say what you

01:11:05.520 do.

01:11:05.740 You actually

01:11:06.320 have to lie.

01:11:07.840 And it's kind

01:11:08.480 of funny,

01:11:08.800 because there's

01:11:09.120 this irony where

01:11:11.300 at the end of

01:11:12.760 the film,

01:11:13.460 Batman says,

01:11:14.320 I'm whatever Gotham

01:11:17.040 needs me to be.

01:11:18.680 And so I'm

01:11:20.020 willing to be

01:11:20.860 portrayed as a

01:11:21.600 villain and

01:11:22.020 portrayed as a

01:11:22.800 murderer,

01:11:23.280 even though Batman

01:11:24.060 never murdered

01:11:25.200 anyone.

01:11:25.860 There's this irony

01:11:26.880 of needing

01:11:28.180 something and

01:11:28.900 deserving,

01:11:29.720 because Batman

01:11:30.200 says,

01:11:30.840 I'm whatever Gotham

01:11:31.740 needs me to be.

01:11:32.520 And so basically,

01:11:34.240 I will sacrifice

01:11:35.300 myself.

01:11:35.860 I'll become a

01:11:36.820 villain.

01:11:37.680 I'll take the

01:11:39.800 blame for these

01:11:40.560 murders that I

01:11:41.420 didn't commit,

01:11:42.260 because that's what

01:11:43.160 Gotham needs.

01:11:44.980 And then he

01:11:46.640 actually says,

01:11:47.260 sometimes they

01:11:47.880 deserve more.

01:11:49.920 Gordon says he's

01:11:50.720 the hero that

01:11:51.400 Gotham deserves,

01:11:52.480 but does Gotham

01:11:54.080 deserve this hero?

01:11:55.100 You know,

01:11:57.340 it's this way

01:11:58.520 that you need

01:12:00.960 a lie.

01:12:03.720 You know,

01:12:04.380 maybe the

01:12:07.360 vision of Harvey

01:12:08.920 Dent that they

01:12:09.500 leave Gotham

01:12:10.640 with,

01:12:10.940 that they're

01:12:11.220 lying about,

01:12:12.080 remember?

01:12:12.820 I mean,

01:12:13.000 they're covering

01:12:13.960 up a mass

01:12:16.740 murderer.

01:12:18.640 I mean,

01:12:18.980 we forget this.

01:12:19.840 We go away from

01:12:20.660 the movie feeling

01:12:21.780 so good that,

01:12:23.040 oh,

01:12:23.260 this is such a

01:12:23.740 great film.

01:12:24.080 They just

01:12:24.760 engage in a

01:12:25.640 massive cover-up

01:12:26.780 of a serial

01:12:27.480 killer at the

01:12:28.760 end of this

01:12:29.140 film,

01:12:29.660 effectively.

01:12:30.900 And then it

01:12:31.540 blows up eight

01:12:32.840 years later.

01:12:33.820 Yeah,

01:12:34.160 and they

01:12:34.420 continue it.

01:12:36.300 And so,

01:12:36.980 does Gotham

01:12:38.400 really deserve

01:12:39.460 this?

01:12:40.080 I mean,

01:12:40.300 it does seem

01:12:40.980 that what

01:12:42.060 Nolan's really

01:12:43.300 saying is that

01:12:44.040 Gotham needs

01:12:44.720 a lie.

01:12:46.320 Yeah.

01:12:47.520 Because it's

01:12:48.180 based on lies,

01:12:49.260 but once you

01:12:50.800 become adults,

01:12:52.040 you understand

01:12:52.840 that it's

01:12:54.060 necessary.

01:12:55.480 You can't

01:12:56.440 have a

01:12:57.000 society with

01:12:58.000 multiple

01:12:58.520 interacting

01:12:59.260 without lies.

01:13:01.080 I think

01:13:01.520 there's

01:13:02.560 something

01:13:02.800 childish,

01:13:03.720 just utterly

01:13:04.360 childish about

01:13:05.200 libertarianism.

01:13:06.120 Well,

01:13:06.980 with Christianity,

01:13:08.200 don't put

01:13:09.580 words in my

01:13:10.300 mouth.

01:13:11.960 Yeah,

01:13:12.340 but it's a

01:13:14.920 Christian problem.

01:13:16.220 Yeah,

01:13:16.400 but with

01:13:16.820 liberalism.

01:13:17.480 this idea,

01:13:18.820 you have,

01:13:20.100 you know,

01:13:20.460 in Siena,

01:13:21.280 in Tuscany,

01:13:22.280 in Italy,

01:13:23.420 you have

01:13:23.800 a famous

01:13:24.740 fresco with

01:13:25.840 the good and

01:13:26.580 bad governments.

01:13:28.480 And I'm

01:13:29.380 sure you can

01:13:30.180 find it on

01:13:31.020 Wikipedia.

01:13:31.480 here.

01:13:32.420 And so,

01:13:33.760 the bad

01:13:34.240 government,

01:13:34.900 it's really

01:13:35.280 a renaissance

01:13:35.860 thing.

01:13:36.600 It's late

01:13:38.220 15th or

01:13:39.160 early 16th

01:13:40.840 centuries.

01:13:41.300 or maybe

01:13:43.860 a bit earlier

01:13:44.760 because the

01:13:45.740 renaissance

01:13:46.360 actually began

01:13:48.920 in Italy.

01:13:50.080 And you have

01:13:50.840 the bad

01:13:51.240 government

01:13:51.700 with a

01:13:52.640 badass guy,

01:13:54.000 you know,

01:13:54.940 trampling on

01:13:55.620 everyone,

01:13:56.800 raping and

01:13:57.680 stealing and

01:13:58.400 plundering.

01:13:59.760 And on the

01:14:00.340 other hand,

01:14:00.900 you have a

01:14:01.760 kind of

01:14:02.160 Santa Claus

01:14:02.840 figure with

01:14:03.680 everyone is

01:14:04.820 nice and

01:14:05.760 it's almost

01:14:06.440 as if they

01:14:07.040 are giving

01:14:08.060 free hugs

01:14:08.780 and it's

01:14:10.240 prosperity.

01:14:11.300 and charity

01:14:12.940 and so,

01:14:14.160 all the,

01:14:14.900 you know,

01:14:15.640 the Christian

01:14:16.220 illusions.

01:14:17.520 And,

01:14:17.860 you know,

01:14:19.160 it's like

01:14:19.640 Batman.

01:14:20.200 You want to

01:14:21.060 live under

01:14:22.560 tyranny because

01:14:23.660 it's more,

01:14:25.540 maybe it's

01:14:26.240 more realistic

01:14:26.980 and more,

01:14:29.100 it's not,

01:14:30.280 it's not that

01:14:30.980 you cherish

01:14:31.640 crime or

01:14:32.400 it's just that

01:14:33.460 the so-called

01:14:34.840 good government

01:14:36.520 fresco is

01:14:37.660 a lie

01:14:38.580 and it's

01:14:39.440 impractical.

01:14:40.360 And also

01:14:41.580 Batman is

01:14:42.860 himself a

01:14:43.540 subterranean

01:14:44.320 figure.

01:14:45.160 Like if,

01:14:45.880 if you,

01:14:46.280 if you think

01:14:46.780 of,

01:14:47.240 yeah,

01:14:48.000 I mean,

01:14:48.320 if,

01:14:48.700 if you think

01:14:49.200 of all

01:14:49.480 these,

01:14:49.760 these comic

01:14:50.780 book

01:14:51.020 characters as

01:14:51.520 kind of

01:14:51.800 gods,

01:14:53.120 you know,

01:14:53.340 Batman

01:14:53.900 would be

01:14:55.500 maybe someone

01:14:56.620 like Hades

01:14:57.580 or Hesfestus

01:14:58.660 or something

01:14:59.040 like he's

01:14:59.640 this,

01:15:00.760 this dark

01:15:02.140 Smith god

01:15:03.360 and,

01:15:04.720 you know,

01:15:04.920 he's a bat.

01:15:05.900 I mean,

01:15:06.100 so,

01:15:06.440 yeah,

01:15:06.640 it's,

01:15:06.900 I think in a

01:15:07.540 way there,

01:15:07.920 to go back

01:15:09.020 with that

01:15:09.260 allegory of

01:15:09.840 good and

01:15:10.080 bad government,

01:15:10.700 like it's,

01:15:11.040 it's,

01:15:11.380 it's showing

01:15:11.880 you the

01:15:12.180 two sides.

01:15:12.920 It's Harvey

01:15:13.460 Two-Face.

01:15:14.060 It's a white

01:15:14.520 knight and

01:15:14.860 a dark

01:15:15.160 knight.

01:15:15.880 You,

01:15:16.360 in order to

01:15:16.960 have this

01:15:17.880 idealized

01:15:19.100 vision of

01:15:19.600 hope and

01:15:19.980 charity,

01:15:20.360 you're going

01:15:21.200 to need a

01:15:22.200 surveillance state

01:15:23.080 and a

01:15:23.400 badass to

01:15:24.060 go crack

01:15:24.540 skulls and,

01:15:25.420 and illegally,

01:15:26.900 you know,

01:15:27.560 get information.

01:15:29.380 Yeah.

01:15:29.600 A crusader

01:15:32.220 or the

01:15:32.740 inquisition or,

01:15:33.940 you know,

01:15:34.960 all these

01:15:35.680 things that

01:15:36.280 saved

01:15:37.300 Christianity

01:15:37.860 from itself

01:15:39.180 or Christendom,

01:15:41.180 which is

01:15:41.440 more to the

01:15:43.260 point.

01:15:43.400 You need a

01:15:43.800 Charlemagne.

01:15:44.540 I mean,

01:15:45.080 where would

01:15:45.840 Christianity be

01:15:46.620 without Constantine

01:15:48.160 or Charlemagne,

01:15:49.240 both of whom

01:15:49.980 you could say

01:15:50.740 are radically

01:15:51.440 un-Christian

01:15:52.240 figures?

01:15:53.580 Yes.

01:15:54.180 I mean,

01:15:54.680 Constantine,

01:15:55.200 especially Constantine.

01:15:55.960 Yeah,

01:15:56.140 I mean,

01:15:56.340 Constantine never

01:15:57.060 understood

01:15:57.880 Christianity.

01:15:58.780 There's,

01:15:59.020 there's evidence

01:15:59.500 to believe

01:15:59.920 that and,

01:16:00.320 you know,

01:16:01.020 as a symbol

01:16:01.520 of the cross

01:16:02.220 and through

01:16:03.220 which you

01:16:03.520 won a battle.

01:16:04.260 I don't know

01:16:04.680 if he ever

01:16:05.080 was touched

01:16:06.160 by the message

01:16:06.740 of Jesus,

01:16:07.400 but,

01:16:07.620 but even

01:16:08.060 Charlemagne

01:16:08.660 was someone

01:16:09.520 who was

01:16:10.060 willing to

01:16:10.720 use brutality

01:16:11.480 in order

01:16:12.000 to protect

01:16:12.720 Christianity.

01:16:14.240 But you,

01:16:14.900 you can't,

01:16:15.660 Christianity

01:16:15.940 would not

01:16:16.380 have survived

01:16:17.200 with,

01:16:17.580 I mean,

01:16:18.060 if,

01:16:18.360 if you only

01:16:19.840 had Christians

01:16:20.780 throughout history

01:16:21.700 as,

01:16:22.180 you know,

01:16:22.300 living the ideals

01:16:23.340 of Jesus,

01:16:24.720 I mean,

01:16:25.220 yeah,

01:16:25.620 they wouldn't

01:16:25.980 have made it

01:16:26.480 out of the

01:16:26.860 first century,

01:16:27.680 I don't think.

01:16:28.440 Right.

01:16:28.680 And later,

01:16:31.300 Islam would

01:16:31.860 have prevailed

01:16:32.600 actually.

01:16:33.640 If you didn't

01:16:34.440 confront it.

01:16:35.700 Right.

01:16:36.220 But if you

01:16:36.680 turn the other

01:16:37.400 cheek or loved

01:16:38.360 your enemy

01:16:38.920 or,

01:16:39.340 or,

01:16:39.600 or so on,

01:16:40.640 you,

01:16:41.540 you would just

01:16:42.020 simply be

01:16:42.520 trampled.

01:16:43.860 And so,

01:16:45.100 yeah,

01:16:45.340 I,

01:16:45.620 I mean,

01:16:45.820 I guess this

01:16:46.320 kind of gets

01:16:46.760 to that.

01:16:47.300 There has to

01:16:47.960 be this hypocrisy

01:16:48.960 that you can't

01:16:50.680 always say

01:16:51.300 what you do

01:16:51.860 and you can't

01:16:52.500 always do

01:16:53.000 what you say.

01:16:54.660 And,

01:16:55.160 and that's

01:16:55.840 that the

01:16:56.320 society functions

01:16:57.320 with both

01:16:57.920 that we,

01:16:58.520 we need our

01:16:59.080 kind of

01:16:59.380 smithy God,

01:17:00.380 which,

01:17:01.440 you know,

01:17:01.820 sadly in the

01:17:02.500 context of the

01:17:03.500 Nolan film is,

01:17:04.340 is the,

01:17:05.120 is the military

01:17:06.020 and the industrial

01:17:06.580 complex,

01:17:07.780 military industrial

01:17:08.620 complex.

01:17:10.480 There are times

01:17:11.720 when you have

01:17:12.900 to do evil

01:17:13.700 in order to

01:17:14.860 do good.

01:17:15.520 I mean,

01:17:18.900 what is it?

01:17:19.380 Rand Paul,

01:17:20.340 like the

01:17:20.660 Joker,

01:17:21.080 basically,

01:17:21.620 and the,

01:17:22.420 you know,

01:17:22.780 like,

01:17:23.060 he wants

01:17:28.860 only chaos.

01:17:30.620 Yes.

01:17:32.580 Well,

01:17:33.200 you were making

01:17:33.920 the libertarian

01:17:34.660 connection before,

01:17:35.760 so there you go.

01:17:37.100 Yeah,

01:17:37.380 I think absolutely.

01:17:38.720 Maybe more.

01:17:39.260 Of course,

01:17:39.460 he says his ideal

01:17:40.240 is Gattaca,

01:17:41.080 so I don't know.

01:17:42.060 That's a pretty

01:17:42.760 far cry from

01:17:43.580 the Joker.

01:17:44.040 His ideal?

01:17:46.180 No,

01:17:46.600 he criticized

01:17:47.320 Gattaca.

01:17:48.420 I thought I read,

01:17:49.380 this is a while

01:17:50.020 ago now,

01:17:50.560 but I read an

01:17:50.960 article where

01:17:51.820 he was supposedly

01:17:52.720 giving a talk

01:17:53.580 somewhere and

01:17:54.320 he was talking

01:17:55.960 about Gattaca

01:17:56.820 as like his

01:17:57.540 ideal future.

01:17:59.220 No,

01:17:59.700 no,

01:17:59.960 no,

01:18:00.100 no,

01:18:00.220 no,

01:18:00.340 you missed

01:18:00.740 it.

01:18:00.980 He was talking,

01:18:02.400 he was like,

01:18:03.260 I think it was

01:18:03.860 actually in the

01:18:04.300 context of being

01:18:05.300 pro-life.

01:18:06.100 He was actually

01:18:06.540 saying,

01:18:06.960 you know,

01:18:07.500 we've all seen

01:18:08.380 the movie Gattaca.

01:18:09.540 That's what happens

01:18:10.480 when liberals

01:18:11.560 take over or

01:18:12.500 something.

01:18:12.800 we'll have

01:18:15.500 eugenics

01:18:16.280 and like

01:18:18.420 safe,

01:18:19.100 happy societies

01:18:20.340 full of smart

01:18:21.040 people.

01:18:21.580 That would be

01:18:21.940 terrible.

01:18:25.000 But anyway,

01:18:26.980 I guess we'll

01:18:28.340 put a bookmark

01:18:28.900 in it.

01:18:29.140 We've been

01:18:29.340 talking for two

01:18:29.860 hours.

01:18:31.780 Yeah.

01:18:32.220 Yeah,

01:18:35.340 we're starting

01:18:35.720 to talk about

01:18:36.300 Rand Paul and

01:18:37.200 Gattaca now.

01:18:38.960 Do you want

01:18:40.200 me to send

01:18:40.860 you,

01:18:41.640 Richard,

01:18:42.140 maybe I can

01:18:44.260 send you the

01:18:44.800 link.

01:18:45.380 Yeah,

01:18:45.520 I found it

01:18:46.060 on Wikipedia.

01:18:47.600 Okay.

01:18:48.400 Yeah.

01:18:48.680 The allegory of

01:18:49.740 good and bad

01:18:50.220 government.

01:18:51.000 So do you

01:18:52.080 agree with me

01:18:52.840 that the

01:18:54.180 tyranny looks

01:18:55.280 more attractive

01:18:56.600 compelling than

01:18:58.080 the good

01:18:59.200 government?

01:18:59.600 No,

01:19:01.800 none of us

01:19:02.300 here would

01:19:02.640 agree with

01:19:03.160 that.

01:19:03.620 I would,

01:19:04.120 the way I

01:19:04.900 would say it

01:19:05.540 is that it's a,

01:19:06.760 I would look at

01:19:07.580 it in the way

01:19:08.480 that Nolan is

01:19:09.140 like there's

01:19:09.580 this,

01:19:10.600 we have to

01:19:11.520 tell most

01:19:12.400 people that

01:19:13.540 the world,

01:19:14.900 the world is

01:19:15.460 about hope

01:19:16.420 and charity,

01:19:17.040 but we,

01:19:18.860 we need to,

01:19:19.620 in order to

01:19:20.320 be wise

01:19:21.240 conservatives in

01:19:22.500 a deep sense

01:19:23.000 of the word,

01:19:23.400 we have to

01:19:23.820 recognize that

01:19:24.760 there's,

01:19:26.120 you need a

01:19:26.720 little tyranny

01:19:27.520 for the hope

01:19:28.600 and charity

01:19:29.080 to survive.

01:19:30.740 And,

01:19:31.280 you know,

01:19:32.120 so I think in

01:19:32.900 a way that the

01:19:33.800 allegory of good

01:19:34.460 and bad

01:19:34.700 government,

01:19:35.000 it's not like,

01:19:35.540 it's not either

01:19:36.160 or,

01:19:36.480 it's very

01:19:36.780 Christian to

01:19:37.380 say either

01:19:37.840 or.

01:19:38.260 I think that's

01:19:38.660 an essential

01:19:39.160 aspect of it.

01:19:40.320 I think the,

01:19:41.120 the way that we

01:19:42.280 should understand

01:19:42.880 it is,

01:19:43.280 is both.

01:19:44.600 Hashtag

01:19:45.440 Ashtag

01:19:46.280 Ashtag

01:19:46.340 Ashtag

01:19:47.080 Ashtag

01:19:47.580 Ashtag

01:19:48.280 Ashtag

01:19:48.740 Ashtag

01:19:49.840 Ashtag

01:19:50.380 Ashtag

01:19:52.860 Ashtag

01:19:54.420 Ashtag

01:19:54.580 Ashtag

01:19:55.440 Ashtag

01:19:56.220 Ashtag

01:19:57.880 Ashtag

01:19:59.540 Ashtag

01:19:59.600 Ashtag

01:20:00.300 Ashtag

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RadixJournal - October 16, 2016

Enemy of the State

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