RadixJournal - First Class Victims

00:00:00.000 Manuel, thank you for being back on the program.

00:00:03.020 You're welcome.

00:00:03.780 Well, Manuel, I want to talk about the recent tragedy that occurred in Ukraine,

00:00:10.820 and that is the downing of the Malaysian Airlines Flight 17 on July 17th of this year.

00:00:19.100 And before we get into interpretation and get into some of the possibilities,

00:00:25.780 why don't you just tell our listeners objectively what happened?

00:00:32.820 Because here in America and in Western Europe, we've seen headlines like Putin's missile,

00:00:40.180 which was put on some British tabloid between photos of Kim Kardashian's bikini body.

00:00:49.100 And there's been a lot of misinformation going on.

00:00:52.280 But again, before we get into interpretation, why don't you just say as objectively as possible what happened?

00:01:00.000 Well, I think it's a very quick thing to tell what happened.

00:01:06.700 A civilian airplane with almost 300 passengers was flying over the battle zone of eastern Ukraine,

00:01:14.880 where the war is going on now since months, and was obviously shot down by something,

00:01:21.920 by a rocket, by whatever, and crushed, and all the passengers died.

00:01:28.520 So this is what we know for sure until today.

00:01:33.260 And that's it already.

00:01:34.840 So what do you think happened?

00:01:40.120 You know, listening to the American media, when it first happened, there were a lot of insinuations

00:01:46.720 that this was Putin's missile, as I mentioned earlier, that this was some malicious Russian plot.

00:01:53.820 For what end, I don't understand.

00:01:55.740 But I think there's been a more general consensus in the Western and American media

00:02:02.860 that the plane was brought down most likely by mistake by what, in their words,

00:02:11.360 are Russian-backed militants or Russian-backed separatists.

00:02:15.220 And that they have downed...

00:02:16.740 These are the separatists in eastern Ukraine who don't want to be a part of the Kiev government

00:02:22.680 and who are being viciously attacked by the Kiev government.

00:02:26.500 And that they, by accident, shot down this plane with an air-to-surface defense system.

00:02:33.540 The BUK, I think, is what is...

00:02:36.500 But so why don't we just talk about that?

00:02:39.600 Do you think that that is a probable or plausible scenario?

00:02:44.460 I think we are right now in the situation that one of the most unlikely scenarios,

00:02:50.620 and that is the scenario you told, that it was so-called pro-Russian separatists

00:02:56.500 who are local defense forces.

00:02:59.480 They are right now doing a war against the Ukrainian army

00:03:02.760 and against paramilitary units who are connected to the Ukrainian army in that region.

00:03:08.260 So to connect that to the so-called pro-Russian separatists

00:03:14.200 that they downed by accident or on purpose,

00:03:17.600 both things are in the western mainstream media already mentioned, by the way,

00:03:22.180 it's a very unlikely scenario.

00:03:25.940 It is unlikely because the plane was flying more than 10,000 meters above the ground,

00:03:37.140 and you need for this just certain weaponry systems.

00:03:42.660 So what we hear always is this BUK weapon system.

00:03:48.860 And at the beginning, the West accused those people's defense militias

00:03:55.600 that they stole or that they captured one of those BUK weapon systems

00:03:59.980 and that they shot down the plane with that weaponry system.

00:04:03.240 Today we know, and we know this because of the Kiev government,

00:04:06.860 the prosecutor general mentioned it himself in an interview,

00:04:12.880 he said that not just one single BUK weaponry system of the Ukrainian army

00:04:18.580 was getting lost somehow in the war.

00:04:21.720 So we can say for sure it's very unlikely that these pro-Russian fighters

00:04:26.820 had the weaponry system to down that airplane.

00:04:31.060 They don't have an interest to down that airplane. 0.80

00:04:33.880 This is also so we can exclude that.

00:04:37.540 And I even think we could exclude this from both sides

00:04:41.020 because nobody has an interest to kill 300 civilians just so.

00:04:46.140 So right now in western mainstream media,

00:04:50.240 it seems like the most unlikely conspiracy theory is presented as the truth.

00:04:57.140 But this is not new, by the way.

00:04:58.600 When we look back, for example, just last year in fall,

00:05:04.060 we had the chemical attack in Syria, in Gauta,

00:05:09.640 where the West accused the Syrian army that they used chemical weapons

00:05:14.820 against rebels and against civilians,

00:05:17.240 where not just one single evidence was given

00:05:20.360 that those weapons were really used by the Syrian government.

00:05:23.980 But anyway, they were accused they did that.

00:05:27.260 And this was maybe the most unlikely conspiracy theory

00:05:30.320 because also the Syrian government has no interest at all to do so.

00:05:34.780 And the West, in particular, Barack Obama was calling chemical weapons

00:05:40.960 as the so-called red line.

00:05:43.440 So then the West has to interfere in a military way.

00:05:46.220 So the Syrian government didn't have any interest to use those weapons,

00:05:50.300 especially at the same time when that happened in Gauta.

00:05:54.620 It was the time when inspectors, UN inspectors, were in the country,

00:05:58.980 so right in front of the nose of those inspectors.

00:06:02.040 So I think we can compare this now as well.

00:06:05.200 The West is very quick with acquisitions.

00:06:07.840 And in Germany, by the way, the newspapers,

00:06:11.240 especially the yellow press, is doing the same campaign.

00:06:14.860 But also Western politicians.

00:06:16.240 I think we both are used to that Western politicians

00:06:20.020 know immediately who committed a crime

00:06:23.800 or who committed a war crime

00:06:25.040 before any investigation takes place.

00:06:28.160 Yes, I agree.

00:06:29.120 Well, let's talk about cui bono, that is, who benefits.

00:06:32.600 Because I think that is one of the most precise means

00:06:36.980 of getting at the truth of something.

00:06:39.500 And again, that's not a definitive answer to any question.

00:06:43.040 But I think it can often really help us understand.

00:06:47.140 And I agree that the Russian separatists 1.00

00:06:50.140 do not benefit in the slightest by downing a civilian aircraft. 0.89

00:06:55.800 It makes them seem like crazies. 0.73

00:06:59.280 It makes them seem like awful people. 0.70

00:07:01.920 It just does not make sense.

00:07:04.740 Do you think that the Ukrainian government

00:07:08.060 might have thought that they could have benefited

00:07:11.080 by the downing of this airplane

00:07:13.500 in the sense that it brings the Ukrainian conflict

00:07:16.820 back into the public consciousness,

00:07:18.960 it brings it back onto the front page of papers and websites,

00:07:23.360 and that this could be used as kind of a 9-11-like tragedy,

00:07:29.040 and it might make it more likely that NATO

00:07:33.900 or some kind of constellation of forces

00:07:37.220 would intervene on their behalf directly?

00:07:40.600 Do you think that that is a plausible scenario?

00:07:44.080 I think there are two important aspects when we discuss this.

00:07:48.420 So aspect number one is that it is less unlikely

00:07:53.060 that the Ukrainian military shot that plane down

00:07:57.420 than that the so-called pro-Russian separatists shot it down.

00:08:01.780 It is more likely that the Ukrainians did it.

00:08:04.300 Now, without any interest, without any other things,

00:08:06.740 when we speak about the means,

00:08:08.140 when we speak about the opportunity to do so,

00:08:11.460 when we speak about the ability.

00:08:13.520 So this is much more likely that the Ukrainians did it.

00:08:16.500 And when we look now to the second aspect,

00:08:18.920 the second aspect is, in my opinion,

00:08:20.600 the more important one, it is that we see

00:08:23.560 that the Ukrainian government tries since months

00:08:27.420 to provoke Russia, to provoke Moscow,

00:08:31.140 to provoke the Russian military

00:08:32.480 to get into a sort of open war against Ukraine.

00:08:35.940 Now we can discuss why should somebody do so.

00:08:39.000 I mean, isn't that crazy when you have a Ukraine, 1.00

00:08:41.800 a little state, if you compare it to Russia,

00:08:44.200 you have a weak military, you have the Russian strong military.

00:08:46.800 So why would you do such a suicidal thing

00:08:49.260 to provoke your strong neighbor to do so?

00:08:52.360 So you must have an interest to do that.

00:08:55.260 So what is very likely is that there are agreements

00:08:59.200 and that there are promises given by the West,

00:09:01.740 in particular by NATO, but also by the European Union

00:09:04.380 and, of course, by several Western states

00:09:06.500 like the United States, but as well the United Kingdom.

00:09:11.420 They are also very much involved in this,

00:09:13.700 that they say in case of an open war,

00:09:15.980 you will get our full support.

00:09:17.660 So when we see now that within the last four months

00:09:21.560 there were countless violations

00:09:23.480 of the Ukrainian-Russian border by the Ukrainian side,

00:09:27.880 so there were Russian border guards were shot,

00:09:30.980 there were shellings coming to the Russian border.

00:09:33.760 There were so many provocations to provoke the Russian army

00:09:36.800 simply maybe to just to go a couple of kilometers

00:09:40.020 on Ukrainian territory to stop those attacks.

00:09:43.580 But this would, of course, be the casus belli, officially.

00:09:47.780 So Russia is in that situation that they don't let provoke themselves.

00:09:52.400 Since months they stay strong.

00:09:54.580 At the same time, the fighters in eastern Ukraine,

00:09:58.240 the pro-Russian fighters, call Moscow desperately for help.

00:10:01.980 They say they should come, they should establish a non-flight zone 0.94

00:10:05.460 or a sort of humanitarian corridor.

00:10:08.200 But, so this is also an aspect.

00:10:12.880 And when we see now the reaction,

00:10:15.900 the international reaction on the shooting against that plane,

00:10:19.700 on the crash of that plane,

00:10:22.220 and we see that Russia was blamed immediately

00:10:24.100 before the first observer, before the first investigator

00:10:28.860 was seeing the first little part of the plane,

00:10:32.840 the western mainstream media and the western politics

00:10:35.120 knew already exactly that it was Putin himself

00:10:38.520 who gave the order.

00:10:39.740 This is what we can read.

00:10:41.220 This is what we can read everywhere.

00:10:43.600 So it fits in this bigger scenario

00:10:46.440 to provoke Russia, to demonize Russia, of course.

00:10:50.420 To demonize Russia, it's the barbarian country. 1.00

00:10:53.840 It's a country where civilian airplanes are shot down for no reason.

00:10:58.020 And, of course, when we see this all in this context,

00:11:02.580 it's the Ukrainian government which benefits of the campaign now

00:11:06.940 and which would benefit as well if Russia is provoked enough

00:11:11.160 and would do, maybe in the eyes of Moscow,

00:11:14.260 the mistake to interfere now in an open way.

00:11:17.240 Yes.

00:11:17.580 No, and I'm not exactly certain that Washington and Barack Obama

00:11:25.940 and NATO would actually directly intervene in a Ukrainian campaign.

00:11:32.660 I think there is a great deal of war wariness,

00:11:37.340 obviously amongst the public,

00:11:40.420 but I think also amongst Barack Obama

00:11:44.560 and I think a lot of people,

00:11:45.540 I think there are different factions within Washington.

00:11:48.320 There is without question a neoconservative,

00:11:51.280 a neoliberal faction,

00:11:52.660 someone like Victoria Nuland being maybe the most obvious example 0.99

00:11:56.360 that would really love to do to intervene in Ukraine

00:12:01.020 and maybe even get in an open war with Russia.

00:12:03.800 But I think I'm just simply not certain

00:12:06.320 that the president with his veto power would want to do that.

00:12:12.300 I don't think it's about now an open war against Russia

00:12:15.420 that if a Russian soldier would step his boot on Ukrainian soul

00:12:20.440 in a very official way,

00:12:22.740 that it would automatically cause a war between Russia and the West.

00:12:26.500 I think something else.

00:12:27.700 I think that in that moment,

00:12:29.540 several agreements would become valuable.

00:12:32.500 For example,

00:12:33.440 we know very well that the Kiev government is completely bankrupt.

00:12:37.860 So that state has no money at all.

00:12:40.080 But in that moment,

00:12:41.100 a lot of help would be valuable.

00:12:44.680 I think for the Kiev government,

00:12:47.700 it's a very weird perspective that, you know,

00:12:50.960 in case of a strategic drama in your country,

00:12:56.000 you will survive longer

00:12:57.180 because then, of course,

00:12:58.980 the European Union would support a lot

00:13:00.900 with money, of course,

00:13:02.500 with financial help,

00:13:03.420 but as well with military hardware.

00:13:06.300 I don't think that the American army would come

00:13:09.020 and help the Ukrainians.

00:13:11.520 But when we look at Ukraine,

00:13:14.240 we should see the country

00:13:15.320 not as an ally of the West,

00:13:18.240 but we should see it maybe more or less

00:13:19.860 like a giant geopolitical mousetrap for the Russians. 0.75

00:13:23.980 So they want to step the Russians into that mousetrap. 1.00

00:13:26.820 Then they arm,

00:13:29.080 they mobilize the Ukrainian army,

00:13:32.100 the paramilitary units,

00:13:34.100 and they would, of course,

00:13:35.140 involve the Russian army

00:13:36.320 in a lot of fights on Ukrainian territory

00:13:38.420 without the direct involvement of the United States.

00:13:41.500 I'm convinced that even in that case,

00:13:43.980 there would be an American politician like John Kerry

00:13:46.300 who would offer himself to negotiate

00:13:48.580 between both sides and so on.

00:13:51.540 So we see the same in Palestine right now,

00:13:55.820 in Gaza,

00:13:56.440 where the country which is supporting very strong

00:14:00.140 one of the war parties,

00:14:03.400 namely Israel,

00:14:04.980 offers itself as a negotiator,

00:14:07.980 as a neutral.

00:14:09.260 So this could happen as well also in Ukraine.

00:14:13.680 So we should see it from that perspective

00:14:15.380 to weaken down Russia, 0.50

00:14:16.820 to get Russia involved

00:14:18.500 in a maybe really ugly war

00:14:21.160 which would take place there,

00:14:22.760 maybe in a sort of partisan war

00:14:24.540 with a lot of cruelty,

00:14:26.620 with a lot of casualties,

00:14:29.180 of course,

00:14:29.620 with a lot of civilian casualties,

00:14:32.060 most probably on both sides.

00:14:34.360 And this would weaken down Russia.

00:14:36.160 I think what is worrying right now

00:14:39.440 for the neocon faction in the West

00:14:41.640 is when they see the rise of Russia,

00:14:45.000 the quick rise of Russia 0.77

00:14:46.120 with Vladimir Putin,

00:14:47.380 when they think back

00:14:48.380 how great was Russia,

00:14:50.400 how great was it to see Russia

00:14:52.000 when Boris Yeltsin

00:14:53.780 was the president of that country.

00:14:55.740 How weak was it?

00:14:56.440 It was almost the neocon colony

00:14:58.180 in that time.

00:14:58.940 And when we look at Russia now,

00:15:00.600 it completely,

00:15:02.040 it somehow reborn.

00:15:04.080 And in a very quick time,

00:15:05.240 we speak about a time

00:15:06.400 I mean of 10,

00:15:07.140 15 years

00:15:07.780 when this country managed

00:15:08.920 to reorganize itself

00:15:10.200 and to be all of a sudden

00:15:11.360 a global player again.

00:15:13.000 With a Ukrainian battlefield,

00:15:14.600 of course,

00:15:16.520 Russia would be so much busy.

00:15:19.180 And of course,

00:15:20.000 it would have

00:15:20.620 inner political consequences as well.

00:15:23.620 They would have a peace faction.

00:15:25.040 There would be liberals

00:15:25.820 in the Kremlin

00:15:26.640 who would argue against that war.

00:15:28.740 You would have the Falcons as well

00:15:30.420 who would say,

00:15:31.020 yes, we have to attack

00:15:31.860 directly now the West.

00:15:33.660 So you could bring

00:15:35.260 a lot of trouble.

00:15:36.220 So I think Ukraine

00:15:37.100 is a sort of that mousetrap.

00:15:38.980 And in particular,

00:15:40.360 the Kiev government

00:15:41.100 knows very well

00:15:41.940 they are bankrupt.

00:15:43.280 They don't have a lot of future.

00:15:44.600 right now

00:15:45.180 and it's

00:15:45.940 I mean,

00:15:46.620 it sounds cynical

00:15:48.280 and discynical

00:15:49.160 when you know that

00:15:50.060 a war

00:15:50.880 might keep you

00:15:52.300 longer alive.

00:15:54.160 And this is

00:15:55.000 at least for the Kiev government

00:15:56.420 it's a very valuable situation

00:15:58.500 right now.

00:15:59.480 Yes,

00:15:59.760 I think that's

00:16:00.580 a very sound analysis.

00:16:02.440 And it is interesting

00:16:03.320 to compare this

00:16:04.200 to the war on terror

00:16:05.220 when, you know,

00:16:06.020 say 10 or 12 years ago

00:16:07.720 when

00:16:08.140 there was really

00:16:09.640 the enemy

00:16:10.240 was living in a cave

00:16:11.940 or, you know,

00:16:13.300 issuing

00:16:13.680 VHS

00:16:15.260 odd

00:16:16.020 VHS videos

00:16:17.500 declaring

00:16:18.140 the end of the West

00:16:19.600 or something like that.

00:16:20.740 In terms of

00:16:21.580 this

00:16:22.780 cold war

00:16:23.880 Washington wants

00:16:25.240 to generate

00:16:25.740 with Russia,

00:16:27.080 they're dealing

00:16:27.840 with people

00:16:28.320 who are

00:16:28.860 much more competent

00:16:30.680 and who are

00:16:31.820 really able

00:16:32.520 to engage

00:16:33.360 in an information war.

00:16:35.020 Thinking back

00:16:35.820 to this

00:16:36.140 recent press conference

00:16:37.820 by the Russian military

00:16:39.580 and they were

00:16:40.520 actually issuing

00:16:41.280 a lot of

00:16:43.360 valuable information.

00:16:45.480 First off

00:16:45.880 about the

00:16:46.600 actual

00:16:48.480 these BUK 0.56

00:16:49.580 devices

00:16:50.060 that they have

00:16:51.460 I guess

00:16:52.780 some

00:16:53.060 through

00:16:54.620 their surveillance

00:16:56.260 they've discovered

00:16:57.140 these BUK devices

00:16:58.120 of the Ukrainian military

00:16:59.460 and that these

00:17:00.700 were actually

00:17:01.220 being stepped up.

00:17:02.340 I think there were

00:17:02.800 nine present

00:17:03.960 during July 17th.

00:17:06.060 So, you know,

00:17:07.560 again,

00:17:07.960 this is information

00:17:09.220 that really

00:17:10.400 changes your view

00:17:13.420 of the

00:17:14.200 master narrative

00:17:15.980 put forth

00:17:16.580 by the Western media.

00:17:19.260 You know,

00:17:19.480 we should be very cautious

00:17:20.760 in talking about this

00:17:21.780 because we're talking

00:17:22.980 about possibilities

00:17:23.920 and probabilities.

00:17:24.820 We're not talking

00:17:25.600 about certainties.

00:17:26.360 But, you know,

00:17:27.600 as I just mentioned

00:17:29.080 there were these

00:17:29.580 BUK devices

00:17:30.700 used by the

00:17:31.660 Ukrainian military

00:17:32.700 in position

00:17:33.880 to knock down

00:17:35.200 a plane.

00:17:36.060 There was also

00:17:36.660 the issue

00:17:37.140 of the plane

00:17:37.700 going off course

00:17:39.720 rather dramatically

00:17:40.800 that, you know,

00:17:42.560 all civilian airlines

00:17:44.060 are avoiding

00:17:44.820 this war area

00:17:45.780 as they should

00:17:46.460 but this plane

00:17:47.980 was diverted

00:17:48.620 to the north

00:17:49.420 and, you know,

00:17:50.860 it's questioned

00:17:51.660 whether we

00:17:52.060 if we have

00:17:52.520 the so-called

00:17:53.000 black box

00:17:53.800 in this plane

00:17:54.400 whether there

00:17:55.640 might be actually

00:17:56.780 flight information

00:17:58.260 from Kiev

00:17:59.580 ordering it

00:18:00.460 into the war zone.

00:18:01.880 There's also

00:18:02.460 this interesting person

00:18:03.780 and I would say

00:18:04.360 that we should

00:18:04.880 deal with a lot

00:18:05.940 of caution

00:18:06.460 with this matter

00:18:07.200 but a so-called

00:18:08.580 Carlos

00:18:09.060 who was in

00:18:10.400 I believe

00:18:10.860 the Kiev

00:18:11.900 air traffic control

00:18:13.520 and he was

00:18:15.040 actually tweeting

00:18:15.960 and I'll definitely

00:18:18.640 put a link

00:18:19.120 to this

00:18:19.520 in the show notes

00:18:20.760 and I would

00:18:21.160 reiterate again

00:18:22.260 that we should deal

00:18:22.980 with this information

00:18:24.040 cautiously

00:18:24.620 but he was

00:18:25.640 tweeting a lot

00:18:26.520 of things

00:18:26.940 that really

00:18:28.020 shake up

00:18:28.760 the narrative

00:18:29.200 and that was

00:18:30.080 that there were

00:18:30.760 Ukrainian fighters

00:18:32.220 near this plane

00:18:33.940 that they were

00:18:34.400 escorting it away

00:18:35.340 and he

00:18:35.660 what do you think

00:18:37.820 maybe just

00:18:39.220 I don't

00:18:39.820 I know that

00:18:40.660 no one

00:18:41.140 has a definitive

00:18:42.000 answer to this

00:18:42.720 but maybe you

00:18:43.780 could just talk

00:18:44.440 about what

00:18:45.080 might have

00:18:45.740 happened

00:18:46.200 on that day.

00:18:48.040 Oh

00:18:48.160 this is

00:18:49.480 well

00:18:50.380 at least I think

00:18:51.500 this is a storybook

00:18:52.640 for a lot

00:18:53.640 of movies

00:18:54.540 and for a lot

00:18:55.600 of different

00:18:56.620 movies

00:18:57.540 for a lot

00:18:58.040 of different

00:18:58.500 dramas

00:18:59.160 you can

00:18:59.700 be done by that

00:19:00.680 and I heard

00:19:01.480 also about

00:19:02.840 those air traffic

00:19:04.120 theories

00:19:04.700 why was the plane

00:19:06.340 flying above

00:19:07.140 eastern Ukraine

00:19:07.920 why wasn't it

00:19:08.800 flying on its

00:19:09.420 original course

00:19:10.160 500 kilometers

00:19:11.040 more in the south

00:19:11.840 what would have

00:19:12.400 been I think

00:19:13.140 Crimea

00:19:13.480 but at the same

00:19:14.640 time we get

00:19:15.300 on the other side

00:19:16.180 a lot of

00:19:16.580 explanations

00:19:17.200 that there

00:19:18.220 is until

00:19:18.640 today

00:19:19.020 it's not

00:19:19.380 clear who

00:19:19.960 is controlling

00:19:20.660 the airspace

00:19:21.560 above the

00:19:23.060 Crimea

00:19:23.700 it's not the

00:19:24.660 Russians

00:19:24.920 but it's the

00:19:25.520 Ukraine

00:19:25.860 so there

00:19:26.400 are many

00:19:28.100 many different

00:19:29.000 theories

00:19:29.660 and I'm also

00:19:30.780 very careful

00:19:32.260 I know also

00:19:33.120 I'm convinced

00:19:34.520 you heard about

00:19:35.220 that theory

00:19:35.860 that Vladimir

00:19:36.620 Putin's plane

00:19:37.500 was flying

00:19:38.760 in almost

00:19:40.120 the same

00:19:40.640 airspace

00:19:41.360 at this

00:19:42.180 day

00:19:42.680 and that

00:19:43.160 it might

00:19:43.560 have

00:19:43.860 that the

00:19:44.980 Ukrainian side

00:19:45.720 might have

00:19:46.220 wanted to

00:19:46.680 shoot down

00:19:47.300 his airplane 0.99

00:19:48.320 but

00:19:49.420 you know

00:19:51.340 as you said

00:19:52.480 we have to

00:19:52.980 be very

00:19:53.840 careful

00:19:54.260 and we have

00:19:55.020 there a lot

00:19:55.580 of highly

00:19:56.740 hypothetic

00:19:57.680 narratives

00:19:59.060 about that

00:20:00.040 thing

00:20:00.660 it's

00:20:02.560 it is not

00:20:03.760 very easy

00:20:04.460 to deal

00:20:05.320 with all

00:20:05.740 these things

00:20:06.160 but I think

00:20:06.840 we should

00:20:08.100 always get

00:20:08.720 back on the

00:20:09.380 ground

00:20:09.700 and the

00:20:10.400 thing on

00:20:10.740 the ground

00:20:11.100 is that

00:20:12.180 we have

00:20:12.540 right now

00:20:13.100 almost 300

00:20:14.320 casualties

00:20:15.720 300 victims

00:20:16.820 of this

00:20:17.320 crash

00:20:17.680 and we

00:20:18.460 should see

00:20:18.860 how we

00:20:19.640 deal

00:20:20.040 with

00:20:20.780 these

00:20:21.340 victims

00:20:21.840 so

00:20:22.440 beside

00:20:22.980 all

00:20:23.480 who

00:20:24.200 was it

00:20:24.640 exactly

00:20:25.160 and how

00:20:25.740 did it

00:20:26.080 happen

00:20:26.420 then I see

00:20:27.780 following

00:20:28.220 I see

00:20:28.740 that we

00:20:29.360 have the

00:20:30.140 eastern

00:20:30.440 side

00:20:30.800 the Russian

00:20:31.240 side

00:20:31.640 which is

00:20:32.820 very calm

00:20:33.440 which says

00:20:33.800 we have to

00:20:34.400 investigate

00:20:34.940 and we have

00:20:35.540 to investigate

00:20:36.100 all the

00:20:36.600 details

00:20:37.000 and I'm

00:20:37.360 convinced

00:20:37.760 if

00:20:38.640 every

00:20:39.960 detail

00:20:40.440 will be

00:20:41.040 investigated

00:20:41.780 as

00:20:42.360 Moscow

00:20:43.300 and as

00:20:43.760 the Russian

00:20:44.160 side

00:20:44.540 right now

00:20:45.000 proposes

00:20:45.560 to do

00:20:45.960 so

00:20:46.220 we will

00:20:46.880 get

00:20:47.060 answers

00:20:47.540 to all

00:20:48.360 these

00:20:48.680 open

00:20:49.000 questions

00:20:49.560 we were

00:20:50.080 right now

00:20:50.440 mentioning

00:20:50.840 so this

00:20:51.300 is

00:20:51.480 the first

00:20:52.220 part

00:20:52.620 of all

00:20:53.360 this

00:20:53.520 and the

00:20:53.840 second

00:20:54.040 part

00:20:54.420 we have

00:20:55.260 the

00:20:55.640 west

00:20:55.960 and when

00:20:56.720 we look

00:20:57.180 exactly

00:20:57.660 how the

00:20:58.340 west

00:20:58.620 right now

00:20:59.140 reacts

00:20:59.600 and how

00:20:59.940 the west

00:21:00.340 deals

00:21:00.840 with those

00:21:01.360 300

00:21:01.880 almost 300

00:21:02.760 dead people

00:21:03.340 we can

00:21:04.140 say

00:21:04.480 obviously

00:21:05.800 these

00:21:06.220 people

00:21:06.640 are right

00:21:07.460 now

00:21:07.700 between

00:21:08.080 being

00:21:08.500 victims

00:21:08.960 first

00:21:09.340 class

00:21:09.780 and

00:21:10.100 victims

00:21:10.500 second

00:21:11.020 class

00:21:11.500 I think

00:21:12.320 you know

00:21:12.560 what I mean

00:21:13.020 they will

00:21:13.400 be

00:21:13.560 victims

00:21:13.920 first

00:21:14.280 class

00:21:14.660 if the

00:21:15.040 west

00:21:15.300 if they

00:21:15.660 can

00:21:15.900 convince

00:21:16.440 the

00:21:16.960 western

00:21:17.340 politics

00:21:18.040 and the

00:21:18.320 western

00:21:18.520 societies

00:21:19.040 that Russia 0.72

00:21:19.580 down that

00:21:20.100 plane

00:21:20.300 then these

00:21:20.740 people

00:21:21.000 are

00:21:21.180 victims

00:21:21.440 first

00:21:21.740 class

00:21:22.100 but if

00:21:23.220 ever

00:21:23.580 will

00:21:23.820 come

00:21:24.080 out

00:21:24.440 that

00:21:24.940 the

00:21:25.100 Ukrainian

00:21:25.540 side

00:21:26.080 and there

00:21:26.800 will be

00:21:27.040 the evidence

00:21:27.540 that the

00:21:27.900 Ukrainian

00:21:28.260 side

00:21:28.600 was

00:21:28.780 shooting

00:21:29.120 that 0.98

00:21:29.380 plane

00:21:29.660 down

00:21:29.960 these

00:21:30.540 poor

00:21:30.780 people

00:21:31.080 will be

00:21:31.580 victims

00:21:32.260 second

00:21:34.480 of social

00:21:35.020 media

00:21:35.400 and

00:21:36.140 especially

00:21:36.800 also

00:21:37.220 on

00:21:37.460 twitter

00:21:37.700 within

00:21:38.100 the

00:21:38.320 last

00:21:38.540 days

00:21:38.840 since

00:21:39.060 the

00:21:39.240 plane

00:21:39.440 was

00:21:39.700 down

00:21:39.960 you

00:21:40.760 don't

00:21:41.060 read

00:21:41.300 a lot

00:21:41.540 from

00:21:41.760 western

00:21:42.080 side

00:21:42.660 or

00:21:44.000 shall

00:21:44.140 I

00:21:44.320 say

00:21:44.580 real

00:21:45.120 the

00:21:47.040 people

00:21:47.540 don't

00:21:48.020 really

00:21:48.320 participate

00:21:49.000 in

00:21:49.760 they are

00:21:52.020 not really

00:21:52.660 sad

00:21:53.180 about

00:21:53.600 what

00:21:53.820 happened

00:21:54.060 they are

00:21:54.460 more

00:21:55.620 to

00:21:55.920 blame

00:21:56.340 now

00:21:56.900 somebody

00:21:57.680 while

00:21:58.240 the

00:21:58.380 Russian

00:21:59.840 side

00:22:00.320 was

00:22:01.800 expressing

00:22:03.120 the

00:22:03.740 sadness

00:22:04.380 and the

00:22:04.960 mourning

00:22:05.200 you find

00:22:05.640 from

00:22:05.880 the

00:22:06.040 western

00:22:06.320 side

00:22:06.700 very

00:22:06.940 much

00:22:07.240 now

00:22:07.460 it's

00:22:07.680 all

00:22:08.000 about

00:22:08.340 to

00:22:08.600 blame

00:22:08.940 somebody

00:22:09.880 and

00:22:10.140 you

00:22:10.280 find

00:22:10.560 cynical

00:22:11.020 comments

00:22:11.580 so

00:22:12.280 the

00:22:12.440 victims

00:22:12.820 are

00:22:13.280 to say

00:22:14.180 it

00:22:14.300 like

00:22:14.480 this

00:22:14.720 the

00:22:14.980 human

00:22:15.260 life

00:22:15.940 of

00:22:16.340 these

00:22:16.560 victims

00:22:16.940 is

00:22:17.240 as

00:22:17.560 valuable

00:22:18.080 as

00:22:19.200 the

00:22:20.000 side

00:22:20.360 which

00:22:20.620 can

00:22:20.880 be

00:22:21.040 blamed

00:22:21.340 for

00:22:21.640 their

00:22:21.840 death

00:22:23.080 and

00:22:23.600 I

00:22:23.760 think

00:22:24.080 that's

00:22:25.060 the

00:22:25.200 big

00:22:25.360 danger

00:22:25.780 of

00:22:26.160 those

00:22:26.400 investigations

00:22:27.040 right

00:22:27.480 now

00:22:27.660 that

00:22:27.900 there

00:22:28.120 will

00:22:28.280 be

00:22:28.440 never

00:22:28.700 a

00:22:28.960 real

00:22:29.160 investigation

00:22:29.720 because

00:22:30.280 they

00:22:31.080 want

00:22:31.340 to

00:22:31.480 have

00:22:31.660 those

00:22:31.980 victims

00:22:32.400 as

00:22:32.600 victims

00:22:32.920 first

00:22:33.260 class

00:22:33.640 and

00:22:33.820 victims

00:22:34.100 first

00:22:34.400 class

00:22:34.720 are

00:22:35.120 the

00:22:35.580 victims

00:22:35.920 of

00:22:36.140 Vladimir

00:22:36.440 Putin

00:22:36.860 the

00:22:37.480 victims

00:22:37.880 of

00:22:38.420 Petrov

00:22:38.760 Poroshenko

00:22:39.440 would

00:22:39.680 just be

00:22:40.040 victims

00:22:40.360 second

00:22:40.640 class

00:22:40.940 and

00:22:41.080 by the

00:22:41.300 way

00:22:41.460 this

00:22:41.680 is

00:22:41.820 also

00:22:42.300 nothing

00:22:43.060 new

00:22:43.420 we

00:22:43.960 know

00:22:44.140 this

00:22:44.320 also

00:22:44.600 from

00:22:44.880 the

00:22:45.060 Syrian

00:22:45.360 battleground

00:22:46.080 Christians

00:22:47.800 who are 1.00

00:22:48.400 killed

00:22:48.780 and 1.00

00:22:49.280 crucified

00:22:49.720 by

00:22:50.600 the

00:22:50.740 fighters

00:22:51.160 by

00:22:51.540 the

00:22:51.760 by

00:22:51.960 the

00:22:52.140 Sunni

00:22:52.380 extremist

00:22:52.800 fighters

00:22:53.120 of

00:22:53.360 the

00:22:53.500 Islamic

00:22:53.860 state

00:22:54.240 are

00:22:55.040 victims

00:22:55.300 second

00:22:55.600 class

00:22:56.000 and

00:22:56.960 those

00:22:57.480 who

00:22:57.680 were

00:22:57.860 killed

00:22:58.200 during

00:22:58.760 the

00:22:58.940 war

00:22:59.100 by

00:22:59.280 the

00:22:59.440 Syrian

00:22:59.700 army

00:23:00.040 are

00:23:00.200 the

00:23:00.280 victims

00:23:00.560 first

00:23:00.860 class

00:23:01.240 the

00:23:02.480 journalist

00:23:03.060 who

00:23:03.760 is

00:23:04.040 kidnapped

00:23:04.980 by

00:23:05.860 Islamist 0.81

00:23:06.700 fighters

00:23:07.280 in

00:23:07.680 Syria

00:23:08.000 we

00:23:08.620 don't

00:23:08.860 know

00:23:09.020 his

00:23:09.200 name

00:23:09.480 the

00:23:09.700 journalist

00:23:10.040 who

00:23:10.260 is

00:23:10.380 arrested

00:23:10.720 by

00:23:10.980 the

00:23:11.160 Syrian

00:23:11.420 army

00:23:11.840 he

00:23:12.520 will

00:23:12.660 have

00:23:12.900 a

00:23:13.180 big

00:23:13.360 campaign

00:23:13.880 for

00:23:14.140 his

00:23:14.320 life

00:23:14.660 so

00:23:15.240 we

00:23:15.460 have

00:23:15.720 everywhere

00:23:16.220 this

00:23:16.500 first

00:23:16.740 and

00:23:16.920 second

00:23:17.140 class

00:23:17.520 and

00:23:17.680 this

00:23:17.840 doesn't

00:23:18.160 help

00:23:18.360 at

00:23:18.500 all

00:23:18.800 in

00:23:19.300 any

00:23:19.500 investigation

00:23:20.100 and

00:23:20.700 this

00:23:20.880 is

00:23:21.080 right

00:23:21.360 now

00:23:21.620 the

00:23:21.880 big

00:23:22.260 danger

00:23:22.680 when

00:23:27.860 know

00:23:28.280 all

00:23:28.780 who

00:23:29.540 is

00:23:29.840 to

00:23:30.020 blame

00:23:30.300 yes

00:23:32.100 I

00:23:32.420 think

00:23:32.760 that

00:23:32.920 was

00:23:33.080 very

00:23:33.420 articulate

00:23:34.000 some

00:23:35.460 victims

00:23:36.340 are

00:23:36.820 more

00:23:37.700 important

00:23:38.200 than

00:23:38.500 others

00:23:38.840 and

00:23:39.040 those

00:23:39.220 are

00:23:39.300 the

00:23:39.420 ones

00:23:39.640 that

00:23:39.780 can

00:23:39.900 fit

00:23:40.300 into

00:23:40.660 a

00:23:40.960 geopolitical

00:23:42.220 plan

00:23:42.800 and

00:23:44.140 I

00:23:44.700 think

00:23:45.060 that's

00:23:45.280 an

00:23:45.420 excellent

00:23:45.700 way

00:23:45.940 of

00:23:46.060 putting

00:23:46.260 it

00:23:46.400 first

00:23:46.700 and

00:23:46.860 second

00:23:47.020 class

00:23:47.300 victims

00:23:47.680 before

00:23:48.580 we

00:23:49.100 put

00:23:49.920 a

00:23:50.060 bookmark

00:23:50.460 in

00:23:50.640 this

00:23:50.860 conversation

00:23:51.640 I

00:23:52.520 just

00:23:52.880 want

00:23:53.040 to

00:23:53.160 return

00:23:53.740 quickly

00:23:54.360 to

00:23:54.540 something

00:23:54.760 we

00:23:54.920 were

00:23:55.000 talking

00:23:55.240 about

00:23:55.500 earlier

00:23:55.920 and

00:23:56.320 that

00:23:56.620 is

00:23:56.980 this

00:23:57.340 notion

00:23:57.860 that

00:23:58.140 the

00:23:58.300 Kiev

00:23:58.560 government

00:23:59.120 is

00:23:59.940 at

00:24:00.200 a

00:24:00.360 breaking

00:24:00.740 point

00:24:01.280 as

00:24:02.180 it

00:24:02.320 were

00:24:02.600 in

00:24:02.880 terms

00:24:03.360 of

00:24:03.860 being

00:24:04.340 bankrupt

00:24:05.020 do 0.96

00:24:06.080 you

00:24:06.400 think

00:24:06.800 that

00:24:07.840 they're

00:24:08.080 going

00:24:08.240 to

00:24:08.380 hit

00:24:08.620 the

00:24:08.840 wall

00:24:09.240 at

00:24:09.480 some

00:24:09.660 point

00:24:10.060 in

00:24:10.840 this

00:24:11.260 upcoming

00:24:11.920 year

00:24:12.460 in

00:24:12.780 terms

00:24:13.360 of

00:24:13.580 not

00:24:13.840 being

00:24:14.060 able

00:24:14.320 to

00:24:14.640 provide

00:24:15.020 services

00:24:15.520 not

00:24:15.820 being

00:24:16.000 able

00:24:16.160 to

00:24:16.260 provide

00:24:16.540 pensions

00:24:17.480 and

00:24:17.660 so

00:24:17.820 forth

00:24:18.100 and

00:24:18.960 that

00:24:19.320 we

00:24:19.620 might

00:24:19.980 reach

00:24:21.360 some

00:24:21.620 kind

00:24:21.840 of

00:24:21.960 climax

00:24:22.580 to

00:24:22.760 this

00:24:22.860 situation

00:24:23.340 where

00:24:23.760 either

00:24:24.720 the

00:24:25.060 West

00:24:25.400 really

00:24:25.840 goes

00:24:26.960 all

00:24:27.320 in

00:24:27.620 with

00:24:27.800 Ukraine

00:24:28.180 I

00:24:28.340 mean

00:24:28.420 maybe

00:24:28.640 not

00:24:28.900 a

00:24:29.040 military

00:24:29.320 intervention

00:24:29.760 but

00:24:30.080 determines

00:24:31.240 that

00:24:31.480 it

00:24:31.640 is

00:24:31.780 going

00:24:31.920 to

00:24:32.060 prop

00:24:32.320 up

00:24:32.440 this

00:24:32.640 government

00:24:33.020 or

00:24:34.600 not

00:24:35.040 do

00:24:35.600 you

00:24:35.840 think

00:24:36.000 we're

00:24:36.160 going

00:24:36.240 to

00:24:36.360 reach

00:24:36.780 a

00:24:37.080 breaking

00:24:37.480 point

00:24:37.960 in the

00:24:38.860 next

00:24:39.140 three to

00:24:39.860 six

00:24:40.080 months

00:24:40.400 I

00:24:41.460 I

00:24:41.480 think

00:24:42.040 we have

00:24:42.540 this

00:24:42.800 breaking

00:24:43.140 point

00:24:43.560 already

00:24:43.940 behind

00:24:44.300 us

00:24:44.580 because

00:24:44.820 when

00:24:45.180 we

00:24:45.340 look

00:24:45.500 at

00:24:45.660 Ukraine

00:24:46.240 today

00:24:46.700 the

00:24:48.040 country

00:24:48.500 we

00:24:48.740 see

00:24:49.100 on

00:24:49.660 our

00:24:49.920 maps

00:24:50.320 doesn't

00:24:50.940 exist

00:24:51.300 anymore

00:24:51.680 so

00:24:52.020 we

00:24:52.260 have

00:24:52.560 a

00:24:52.800 divided

00:24:53.140 country

00:24:53.560 we have

00:24:53.920 a

00:24:54.040 country

00:24:54.320 where

00:24:54.580 in

00:24:54.720 the

00:24:54.880 east

00:24:55.100 is

00:24:55.240 a

00:24:55.360 war

00:24:55.560 zone

00:24:55.860 where

00:24:56.760 an

00:24:57.520 army

00:24:57.840 is

00:24:58.160 doing

00:24:58.420 a

00:24:58.620 war

00:24:58.820 against

00:24:59.180 its

00:24:59.420 own

00:24:59.700 civilian

00:25:00.060 population

00:25:00.740 and

00:25:01.380 we

00:25:01.520 have

00:25:01.740 on

00:25:01.900 the

00:25:02.020 western

00:25:02.280 side

00:25:02.720 where

00:25:03.000 the

00:25:03.200 Maidan

00:25:03.620 government

00:25:04.220 is

00:25:04.560 and

00:25:04.740 where

00:25:04.900 also

00:25:05.160 the

00:25:05.320 people

00:25:05.600 are

00:25:05.780 who

00:25:05.920 are

00:25:06.040 supporting

00:25:06.480 this

00:25:06.740 we

00:25:06.940 have

00:25:07.140 already

00:25:07.520 a

00:25:08.140 sort

00:25:08.420 of

00:25:08.740 western

00:25:09.560 or

00:25:10.140 european

00:25:10.800 union

00:25:11.180 protectorate

00:25:12.000 this

00:25:12.260 country

00:25:12.680 couldn't

00:25:13.500 exist

00:25:14.060 without

00:25:14.420 already

00:25:15.140 without

00:25:15.480 the

00:25:15.820 help

00:25:16.060 of

00:25:16.620 the

00:25:16.800 west

00:25:17.080 and

00:25:17.680 this

00:25:17.820 is

00:25:17.940 a

00:25:18.060 very

00:25:18.260 weird

00:25:18.580 situation

00:25:19.060 because

00:25:19.400 this

00:25:19.640 country

00:25:19.960 is

00:25:20.220 ruled

00:25:20.740 by

00:25:21.220 billionaires

00:25:21.860 by

00:25:22.560 very

00:25:23.040 rich

00:25:23.640 people

00:25:24.480 you know

00:25:25.360 that's

00:25:25.800 that's

00:25:26.060 just

00:25:26.200 democracy

00:25:26.900 well

00:25:27.340 you know

00:25:27.560 it's

00:25:27.700 freedom

00:25:28.080 exactly

00:25:30.000 but

00:25:30.420 it's

00:25:30.600 it

00:25:31.020 of course

00:25:31.480 in

00:25:31.780 western

00:25:32.100 Ukraine

00:25:32.500 it's

00:25:32.740 more

00:25:33.160 dramatic

00:25:33.660 than

00:25:34.080 I

00:25:34.260 think

00:25:35.320 european

00:25:35.800 country

00:25:36.460 right

00:25:36.980 now

00:25:37.200 so

00:25:37.800 this

00:25:38.020 is

00:25:38.260 already

00:25:38.640 a

00:25:38.800 protectorate

00:25:39.420 and

00:25:39.640 the

00:25:39.840 leaders

00:25:40.140 of

00:25:40.380 kiev

00:25:40.680 know

00:25:41.000 very

00:25:41.260 well

00:25:41.520 that

00:25:41.700 they

00:25:41.880 are

00:25:42.200 in

00:25:43.460 terms

00:25:43.740 of

00:25:43.880 geopolitics

00:25:44.560 very

00:25:44.900 important

00:25:45.540 for

00:25:46.220 the

00:25:46.400 west

00:25:46.640 that

00:25:46.820 the

00:25:47.080 west

00:25:47.380 wouldn't

00:25:48.260 let

00:25:49.040 them

00:25:49.260 fall

00:25:49.580 apart

00:25:49.980 and

00:25:51.020 the

00:25:51.420 west

00:25:51.740 gives

00:25:52.200 also

00:25:52.520 that

00:25:52.740 signals

00:25:53.100 that

00:25:53.360 they

00:25:53.580 won't

00:25:54.020 do

00:25:54.200 that

00:25:54.400 but

00:25:54.660 it's

00:25:55.340 most

00:25:55.580 likely

00:25:55.980 that

00:25:56.260 western

00:25:56.600 Ukraine

00:25:57.060 will

00:25:57.320 become

00:25:57.640 a

00:25:57.820 sort

00:25:58.120 of

00:25:58.460 bigger

00:25:59.540 Kosovo

00:26:00.380 or

00:26:00.900 maybe

00:26:01.540 a

00:26:01.840 sort

00:26:02.120 of

00:26:02.340 Bosnia

00:26:02.940 where

00:26:04.020 I mean

00:26:04.700 these

00:26:04.900 countries

00:26:05.220 are

00:26:05.440 governed

00:26:06.220 by

00:26:06.500 criminal

00:26:06.920 gangs

00:26:07.340 who 0.76

00:26:07.540 call

00:26:07.780 themselves

00:26:08.200 now

00:26:08.520 political

00:26:08.960 parties

00:26:09.520 or

00:26:10.180 political

00:26:10.900 organizations

00:26:11.640 or

00:26:11.960 NGOs

00:26:12.380 and

00:26:13.520 the

00:26:13.880 security

00:26:14.420 and

00:26:14.940 all

00:26:15.480 the

00:26:16.200 economical

00:26:16.960 order

00:26:17.520 is all

00:26:18.040 organized

00:26:18.660 by the

00:26:19.180 European

00:26:19.480 Union

00:26:19.960 or

00:26:20.860 by

00:26:21.300 NATO

00:26:21.640 as well

00:26:22.520 so

00:26:22.780 I think

00:26:23.280 this

00:26:23.680 will be

00:26:24.620 the

00:26:25.500 long-term

00:26:27.120 development

00:26:28.360 of

00:26:28.820 at least

00:26:29.600 western

00:26:30.000 Ukraine

00:26:30.360 we don't

00:26:30.760 know

00:26:30.940 what

00:26:31.140 will

00:26:31.300 happen

00:26:31.520 with

00:26:31.740 eastern

00:26:32.060 Ukraine

00:26:32.420 a lot

00:26:32.720 of

00:26:32.860 depends

00:26:33.240 on

00:26:33.400 what

00:26:33.640 will

00:26:33.860 there

00:26:34.100 happen

00:26:34.420 within

00:26:35.100 the

00:26:35.300 next

00:26:35.520 weeks

00:26:35.920 or

00:26:36.160 months

00:26:36.560 but

00:26:37.620 well

00:26:39.200 to be

00:26:39.700 a little

00:26:40.120 bit

00:26:40.540 how shall

00:26:42.080 I say

00:26:42.620 pessimistic

00:26:46.840 right now

00:26:48.060 it looks

00:26:48.520 like

00:26:48.860 that

00:26:49.160 those

00:26:49.820 independent

00:26:50.840 fighters

00:26:51.380 in the

00:26:51.780 eastern

00:26:51.980 Ukraine

00:26:52.260 get a

00:26:52.720 lot

00:26:53.120 of

00:26:53.300 pressure

00:26:53.680 by the

00:26:54.140 Ukrainian

00:26:54.540 army

00:26:55.020 so

00:26:55.940 it

00:26:56.600 doesn't

00:26:56.900 look like

00:26:57.380 that

00:26:57.720 within

00:26:58.240 the

00:26:58.540 next

00:26:58.800 couple

00:26:59.140 of

00:26:59.360 weeks

00:26:59.760 the

00:27:00.920 army

00:27:01.220 would

00:27:01.480 leave

00:27:01.800 eastern

00:27:02.260 Ukraine

00:27:02.700 and

00:27:02.900 in

00:27:03.040 eastern

00:27:03.260 Ukraine

00:27:03.700 would

00:27:04.120 be

00:27:05.660 established

00:27:06.120 a new

00:27:06.520 state

00:27:06.900 called

00:27:07.240 new

00:27:07.500 Russia

00:27:07.840 or

00:27:08.740 whatever

00:27:09.300 so

00:27:09.940 it

00:27:10.160 will

00:27:10.300 take

00:27:10.580 a

00:27:10.740 while

00:27:11.000 and

00:27:11.160 the

00:27:11.300 war

00:27:11.500 is

00:27:11.660 always

00:27:11.980 very

00:27:12.280 expensive

00:27:12.820 and

00:27:13.420 the

00:27:13.700 Kiev

00:27:13.880 government

00:27:14.300 knows

00:27:14.740 they

00:27:14.940 can

00:27:15.120 rely

00:27:15.400 on

00:27:15.600 the

00:27:15.740 West

00:27:15.980 that

00:27:16.180 the

00:27:16.340 West

00:27:16.580 will

00:27:16.820 help

00:27:17.060 them

00:27:17.240 financing

00:27:17.800 that

00:27:18.620 war

00:27:18.940 and

00:27:19.360 by

00:27:19.520 financing

00:27:20.000 a

00:27:20.300 war

00:27:20.480 they

00:27:20.700 know

00:27:21.000 the

00:27:21.940 West

00:27:22.200 would

00:27:22.400 also

00:27:22.720 finance

00:27:23.280 the

00:27:23.520 state

00:27:23.840 we

00:27:24.300 had

00:27:24.540 already

00:27:24.900 by the

00:27:25.240 way

00:27:25.460 in

00:27:25.640 Ukraine

00:27:26.100 those

00:27:26.540 situations

00:27:27.400 you were

00:27:27.720 mentioning

00:27:28.160 that

00:27:28.640 pensions

00:27:29.240 were not

00:27:29.700 paid

00:27:30.140 or they

00:27:30.540 were paid

00:27:31.080 much

00:27:31.360 too late

00:27:31.740 I was

00:27:32.040 speaking

00:27:32.340 when I

00:27:32.640 was on

00:27:32.960 Crimea

00:27:33.300 during the

00:27:33.860 referendum

00:27:34.300 to some

00:27:35.300 people

00:27:35.600 to

00:27:35.780 Ukrainians

00:27:36.540 who

00:27:37.080 were

00:27:37.380 voting

00:27:37.860 for

00:27:38.160 Russia

00:27:38.480 in the

00:27:39.160 referendum

00:27:39.620 and they

00:27:40.020 told me

00:27:40.420 they

00:27:40.560 are not

00:27:40.820 the

00:27:40.980 big

00:27:41.140 fans

00:27:41.460 of

00:27:41.640 Russia

00:27:41.920 but

00:27:42.160 they

00:27:42.340 know

00:27:42.600 that

00:27:42.920 their

00:27:43.420 relatives

00:27:43.900 in

00:27:44.680 Lemberg

00:27:45.740 or in

00:27:47.660 Kiev

00:27:49.940 countryside

00:27:50.480 that

00:27:50.960 they

00:27:51.400 had

00:27:51.600 problems

00:27:52.140 with

00:27:52.560 the

00:27:52.720 social

00:27:53.140 services

00:27:54.100 for

00:27:54.520 example

00:27:54.980 after

00:27:55.760 the

00:27:56.400 Maidan

00:27:57.120 push 0.64

00:27:57.740 which

00:27:58.480 after

00:27:59.220 that

00:27:59.700 happened

00:28:00.000 so I

00:28:00.800 think

00:28:01.040 there

00:28:01.260 is

00:28:01.480 already

00:28:02.080 right

00:28:02.600 now

00:28:02.920 that

00:28:03.220 situation

00:28:03.840 and

00:28:04.620 that

00:28:05.060 state

00:28:05.340 can

00:28:05.800 only

00:28:06.360 exist

00:28:07.140 by

00:28:07.960 the

00:28:08.860 support

00:28:09.300 and

00:28:09.480 support

00:28:09.840 means

00:28:10.080 always

00:28:10.380 a little

00:28:10.660 bit

00:28:10.840 by

00:28:11.020 the

00:28:11.180 control

00:28:11.580 by

00:28:11.800 the

00:28:11.980 West

00:28:12.160 but

00:28:12.340 I

00:28:12.480 think

00:28:12.720 people

00:28:13.280 like

00:28:13.560 Petro

00:28:13.880 Poroshenko

00:28:14.580 or Igor

00:28:15.100 Kolomoisky

00:28:15.800 they

00:28:16.740 are not

00:28:16.960 very much

00:28:17.380 interested

00:28:17.820 who is

00:28:18.740 now

00:28:19.020 really

00:28:19.360 having

00:28:19.640 control

00:28:20.220 as long

00:28:21.060 these

00:28:21.260 people

00:28:21.580 can

00:28:21.920 go

00:28:22.180 into

00:28:22.420 their

00:28:22.680 business

00:28:23.140 and

00:28:23.960 can

00:28:24.520 proceed

00:28:24.980 in

00:28:25.340 their

00:28:25.500 business

00:28:25.800 I

00:28:25.960 think

00:28:26.220 that's

00:28:26.600 the

00:28:26.760 important

00:28:27.140 thing

00:28:27.500 so we

00:28:28.260 have

00:28:28.540 maybe

00:28:28.940 sooner

00:28:29.480 or

00:28:29.700 later

00:28:29.920 there

00:28:30.160 a

00:28:30.320 sort

00:28:30.580 of

00:28:30.940 high

00:28:31.880 level

00:28:32.280 mafia

00:28:32.820 or

00:28:33.480 gangster

00:28:33.800 state

00:28:34.180 as we

00:28:34.560 see

00:28:34.720 it

00:28:34.840 for

00:28:34.980 example

00:28:35.400 exactly

00:28:37.160 in

00:28:37.440 Kosovo

00:28:37.900 I

00:28:38.200 think

00:28:38.420 this

00:28:38.660 is

00:28:38.900 an

00:28:39.540 analogy

00:28:40.180 which

00:28:40.580 works

00:28:41.100 out

00:28:41.460 well

00:28:42.320 I

00:28:42.700 think

00:28:43.040 the

00:28:43.240 president

00:28:43.740 who

00:28:44.320 was

00:28:44.520 formerly

00:28:45.020 known

00:28:45.280 as

00:28:45.420 the

00:28:45.580 chocolate

00:28:45.940 king

00:28:46.480 probably

00:28:47.940 is

00:28:48.340 a

00:28:48.680 kind

00:28:49.580 of

00:28:49.700 functionary

00:28:50.500 type

00:28:50.840 he

00:28:51.020 strikes

00:28:51.320 me

00:28:51.500 as

00:28:51.660 a

00:28:51.840 very

00:28:52.220 boring

00:28:53.040 yet

00:28:54.160 probably

00:28:54.720 competent

00:28:55.440 businessman

00:28:56.180 who

00:28:56.600 wants

00:28:56.840 to

00:28:57.000 just

00:28:57.200 sell

00:28:57.540 chocolate

00:28:58.140 to

00:28:58.460 everyone

00:28:58.900 so

00:29:00.320 he

00:29:01.120 might

00:29:01.460 actually

00:29:01.940 even

00:29:02.340 want

00:29:02.900 to

00:29:03.080 have

00:29:03.320 a

00:29:03.480 kind

00:29:03.700 of

00:29:03.840 detente

00:29:04.360 with

00:29:04.640 Russia

00:29:05.040 I

00:29:05.840 don't

00:29:06.240 see

00:29:06.500 him

00:29:06.680 as

00:29:06.840 ideological

00:29:07.400 I

00:29:07.840 might

00:29:08.220 certainly

00:29:08.540 be

00:29:08.780 wrong

00:29:09.260 about

00:29:09.580 that

00:29:09.820 but

00:29:10.320 at

00:29:10.580 the

00:29:10.700 same

00:29:10.860 time

00:29:11.380 if

00:29:12.200 we

00:29:12.440 have

00:29:13.380 a

00:29:13.680 standoff

00:29:15.040 that

00:29:15.680 lasts

00:29:16.200 for

00:29:16.440 months

00:29:16.820 maybe

00:29:17.080 even

00:29:17.320 years

00:29:17.780 what

00:29:19.000 we

00:29:19.200 might

00:29:19.520 see

00:29:19.880 is

00:29:20.080 a

00:29:20.200 kind

00:29:20.440 of

00:29:20.580 slow

00:29:21.240 genocide

00:29:22.580 of

00:29:23.480 ethnic

00:29:25.420 Russians

00:29:25.900 in

00:29:26.500 eastern

00:29:27.040 Ukraine

00:29:27.520 this

00:29:28.100 was

00:29:28.240 actually

00:29:28.480 called

00:29:28.860 for

00:29:29.200 by

00:29:29.460 someone

00:29:29.940 who

00:29:30.140 is

00:29:30.340 much

00:29:30.660 more

00:29:31.020 ideological

00:29:32.140 and

00:29:32.460 that

00:29:32.600 is

00:29:32.740 the

00:29:33.020 Timoshenko

00:29:34.920 woman 0.99

00:29:35.320 who

00:29:36.720 has

00:29:36.920 these

00:29:37.200 peasant

00:29:37.740 braids

00:29:38.440 and

00:29:38.640 things

00:29:38.880 like

00:29:39.060 that

00:29:39.240 although

00:29:39.440 now

00:29:39.740 when

00:29:39.920 she

00:29:40.040 came

00:29:40.220 out

00:29:40.320 of

00:29:40.440 prison

00:29:40.720 she

00:29:40.940 looks

00:29:41.140 a little

00:29:41.340 bit

00:29:41.480 like

00:29:41.640 a 0.81

00:29:41.800 witch

00:29:42.060 but

00:29:42.980 she

00:29:43.160 actually

00:29:43.560 at one

00:29:45.040 point

00:29:45.360 in a

00:29:46.100 phone

00:29:46.440 conversation

00:29:46.960 called

00:29:47.360 for the

00:29:47.680 use

00:29:47.940 of

00:29:48.100 nuclear

00:29:48.460 weapons

00:29:48.960 which

00:29:50.800 is

00:29:50.960 beyond

00:29:52.220 outrageous

00:29:52.800 but

00:29:53.740 do you

00:29:54.160 think

00:29:54.360 maybe that

00:29:55.620 might be

00:29:56.120 what happens

00:29:56.660 where Russia

00:29:57.720 because Putin

00:29:59.560 is a

00:30:00.020 realist

00:30:01.320 he's a

00:30:01.660 very

00:30:02.080 cool

00:30:03.040 and cautious

00:30:03.840 operator

00:30:04.760 that he

00:30:05.240 might

00:30:05.560 understand

00:30:06.920 that Ukraine 0.91

00:30:07.640 is a bit

00:30:08.480 of a trap

00:30:09.200 and he

00:30:09.840 might

00:30:10.020 not

00:30:10.420 want

00:30:10.660 to

00:30:10.780 go

00:30:10.980 in

00:30:11.140 he

00:30:11.240 might

00:30:11.400 not

00:30:11.660 want

00:30:11.800 to

00:30:11.880 put

00:30:12.000 boots

00:30:12.380 on

00:30:12.520 the

00:30:12.640 ground

00:30:12.940 as

00:30:13.100 they

00:30:13.220 say

00:30:13.460 and

00:30:13.940 what

00:30:14.080 we

00:30:14.240 have

00:30:14.540 is a

00:30:14.800 kind

00:30:15.080 of

00:30:15.260 long

00:30:15.960 term

00:30:16.460 Mexican

00:30:17.300 standoff

00:30:18.040 and

00:30:18.480 the

00:30:19.240 people

00:30:20.140 underneath

00:30:20.640 suffer

00:30:21.260 terribly

00:30:21.720 and

00:30:21.980 there

00:30:22.100 might

00:30:22.320 really

00:30:22.620 be

00:30:22.860 a

00:30:23.040 genocide

00:30:23.400 or

00:30:23.760 ethnic

00:30:24.260 cleansing

00:30:24.820 of

00:30:26.700 Russian

00:30:27.500 speakers

00:30:27.960 from

00:30:28.200 eastern

00:30:28.460 Ukraine

00:30:28.880 right

00:30:47.300 right

00:30:47.360 like a

00:31:02.480 business

00:31:02.880 like a

00:31:04.200 manager

00:31:04.520 who

00:31:05.060 was

00:31:05.280 installed

00:31:06.000 for

00:31:06.360 running

00:31:06.860 that

00:31:07.080 country

00:31:07.440 and

00:31:08.100 but

00:31:08.360 also

00:31:08.720 Peter

00:31:09.100 Poroshenko

00:31:09.760 and also

00:31:10.360 the

00:31:10.700 administration

00:31:11.420 in Kiev

00:31:11.920 might have

00:31:12.860 learned

00:31:13.180 one lesson

00:31:13.820 within

00:31:14.160 the last

00:31:14.600 decades

00:31:15.100 and the

00:31:15.860 lesson

00:31:16.120 is

00:31:16.400 you can

00:31:17.660 commit

00:31:18.140 genocide

00:31:18.700 if you

00:31:20.080 commit it

00:31:20.560 in a

00:31:20.800 slow

00:31:21.000 way

00:31:21.300 if you

00:31:22.240 commit a

00:31:22.680 genocide

00:31:23.020 very quick

00:31:23.800 you will

00:31:24.300 be stopped

00:31:24.780 and you

00:31:25.100 will have

00:31:25.380 a lot

00:31:25.580 of protests

00:31:26.220 but if

00:31:26.980 you do

00:31:27.260 your

00:31:27.480 genocide

00:31:27.900 slow

00:31:28.640 enough

00:31:29.060 nobody

00:31:29.880 will be

00:31:30.320 interested

00:31:30.700 it's like

00:31:31.100 the theory

00:31:31.540 of the

00:31:31.900 frog

00:31:32.120 in the

00:31:32.400 cold

00:31:32.640 water

00:31:32.960 when you

00:31:33.700 throw a

00:31:34.500 frog

00:31:34.680 into the

00:31:35.060 hot

00:31:35.220 water

00:31:35.500 he jumps

00:31:36.000 out

00:31:36.240 but if

00:31:36.760 you

00:31:36.980 put the

00:31:38.120 frog

00:31:38.300 in the

00:31:38.540 cold

00:31:38.780 water

00:31:39.120 and warm

00:31:39.680 it

00:31:39.840 slowly

00:31:40.180 up

00:31:40.480 the frog

00:31:41.280 will sit

00:31:41.680 in the

00:31:41.960 boiling

00:31:42.240 water

00:31:42.620 without

00:31:42.920 jumping

00:31:43.300 out

00:31:43.520 and I

00:31:43.760 think

00:31:46.400 genocide

00:31:46.940 and when

00:31:47.400 we look

00:31:47.700 for example

00:31:48.240 again

00:31:48.680 to Kosovo

00:31:49.960 in Kosovo

00:31:50.820 is happening

00:31:52.340 a genocide

00:31:52.920 since now

00:31:53.760 almost 15

00:31:54.500 years and

00:31:54.920 nobody is

00:31:55.420 talking about

00:31:55.980 that

00:31:56.220 the complete

00:31:57.380 extermination

00:31:58.360 of the

00:31:59.320 Serbian

00:31:59.780 presence

00:32:00.300 and when I

00:32:00.820 say the

00:32:01.120 Serbian

00:32:01.400 presence

00:32:01.720 I mean

00:32:02.000 the physical

00:32:02.520 Serbian

00:32:03.000 presence

00:32:03.380 of course

00:32:03.840 the Serbs

00:32:04.280 are not

00:32:04.580 killed there

00:32:05.120 they have

00:32:05.800 to leave

00:32:06.260 but

00:32:06.820 the extermination

00:32:08.980 in Kosovo

00:32:09.460 goes so far

00:32:10.360 that the

00:32:11.020 Albanians

00:32:11.640 or the

00:32:12.060 radical Albanians 0.91

00:32:12.900 even destroy 0.99

00:32:13.700 the Serbian 0.91

00:32:14.300 graveyards

00:32:15.040 they destroy

00:32:15.820 them

00:32:16.020 they disgraced

00:32:16.760 them

00:32:16.940 they put

00:32:17.420 animal bones

00:32:18.480 when they

00:32:18.960 were having

00:32:19.860 a festival

00:32:20.380 or so

00:32:20.900 and they

00:32:21.200 were eating

00:32:21.740 their beef

00:32:24.620 they are

00:32:24.920 putting the

00:32:25.480 bones

00:32:25.860 the remainings

00:32:26.660 of the

00:32:26.960 animals

00:32:27.320 on the

00:32:28.220 graveyards

00:32:28.720 of the

00:32:29.220 Serbs 0.71

00:32:29.500 and they

00:32:29.760 are destroying

00:32:30.300 those

00:32:30.580 graveyards

00:32:31.040 so we

00:32:31.380 see an

00:32:31.820 absolute

00:32:32.300 slowly

00:32:33.280 but an

00:32:33.700 absolute

00:32:34.140 clean

00:32:36.520 ethnical

00:32:38.040 cleaning

00:32:38.500 happening

00:32:39.180 there

00:32:39.520 and I

00:32:39.820 think this

00:32:40.160 is also

00:32:40.560 what the

00:32:41.840 people in

00:32:42.300 Kiev know 1.00

00:32:42.880 they will

00:32:44.140 get rid

00:32:44.600 of the 1.00

00:32:45.160 Russians

00:32:45.440 but it

00:32:45.800 might take

00:32:46.300 15 or

00:32:46.840 20 years

00:32:47.440 if nobody

00:32:48.040 is now

00:32:48.540 interfering

00:32:49.080 or intervening

00:32:50.040 the Russians

00:32:50.760 in eastern

00:32:51.900 Ukraine might

00:32:52.620 leave then to

00:32:53.320 Russia or 0.72

00:32:54.180 to any other

00:32:55.160 country like

00:32:56.460 we see it

00:32:57.260 also in

00:32:57.760 Serbia

00:32:58.080 they are not

00:32:58.800 just going

00:32:59.420 back to

00:32:59.820 Serbia but

00:33:00.300 a lot of

00:33:00.900 them are

00:33:01.140 living in

00:33:01.480 Germany or

00:33:02.220 even in

00:33:02.580 US or

00:33:03.180 somewhere in

00:33:03.640 Europe

00:33:03.880 migrants

00:33:04.680 so this

00:33:05.720 is also

00:33:06.120 a type

00:33:06.620 of genocide

00:33:07.480 but a

00:33:08.040 slowly

00:33:08.400 one and

00:33:08.920 it's a

00:33:09.280 very

00:33:09.560 or shall

00:33:11.200 I say

00:33:11.620 it's a

00:33:12.180 genocide

00:33:12.460 which will

00:33:12.980 work out

00:33:13.420 100%

00:33:14.240 and if it

00:33:15.420 goes on in

00:33:15.980 Kosovo like 0.90

00:33:16.660 that maybe

00:33:17.200 in 20

00:33:17.680 years you

00:33:19.080 will not

00:33:19.460 even anymore

00:33:20.120 notice that

00:33:20.820 in some

00:33:21.140 areas where

00:33:21.820 Serbian

00:33:22.180 settlements

00:33:22.640 because they

00:33:23.880 are exterminated

00:33:24.980 they disappeared 0.76

00:33:25.680 where you

00:33:26.760 had a

00:33:27.200 Serbian

00:33:27.480 graveyard

00:33:27.920 there will

00:33:28.340 be the

00:33:29.520 big parking

00:33:30.000 spot of the

00:33:30.920 new supermarket

00:33:31.580 so this is

00:33:32.600 really absolute

00:33:33.420 and it's

00:33:33.980 unconditional

00:33:34.480 and I

00:33:35.480 think maybe

00:33:36.880 the analysts

00:33:38.080 in Kiev

00:33:38.540 know that

00:33:39.180 and if

00:33:41.460 there is

00:33:41.820 right now

00:33:42.300 nothing

00:33:42.640 happening

00:33:43.140 I think

00:33:44.240 this is

00:33:45.060 and if

00:33:45.800 there is

00:33:46.120 not any

00:33:47.100 stronger

00:33:47.680 support

00:33:48.140 coming from

00:33:48.800 Russia

00:33:49.080 this is

00:33:49.460 what the

00:33:49.740 Russian

00:33:49.960 speaking

00:33:50.300 population

00:33:50.880 in eastern

00:33:51.280 Ukraine

00:33:51.740 might face

00:33:52.980 to that

00:33:53.960 type of

00:33:54.460 fate

00:33:54.720 yes well

00:33:55.980 this is

00:33:56.500 been rather

00:33:57.820 saddening

00:33:58.500 but

00:33:59.060 sometimes

00:34:00.720 reality

00:34:01.180 is rather

00:34:02.260 saddening

00:34:03.500 well Manuel

00:34:05.060 thank you

00:34:05.820 again for

00:34:06.760 being on

00:34:07.720 the program

00:34:08.260 I think

00:34:11.340 maybe I

00:34:11.840 should have

00:34:12.240 you back

00:34:12.700 and we

00:34:13.020 talk about

00:34:13.660 something

00:34:14.080 that is

00:34:14.620 actually

00:34:15.140 fun

00:34:16.860 because

00:34:17.740 this is

00:34:18.620 a very

00:34:19.360 tragic

00:34:19.820 situation

00:34:20.460 and obviously

00:34:22.100 a much

00:34:23.020 more complex

00:34:23.620 one than

00:34:24.060 is being

00:34:24.480 depicted

00:34:25.440 in the

00:34:25.920 western

00:34:26.340 media

00:34:26.760 but thank

00:34:28.240 you again

00:34:28.780 and I

00:34:29.980 hope to

00:34:30.460 have you

00:34:30.800 on

00:34:31.140 soon

00:34:32.400 and I

00:34:32.820 promise

00:34:33.100 we'll

00:34:33.340 talk about

00:34:33.920 something

00:34:34.740 a little

00:34:35.640 brighter

00:34:36.100 oh thank

00:34:37.800 god

00:34:38.100 okay thank

00:34:40.220 you so much

00:34:40.680 thank you

00:34:41.380 okay bye

00:34:42.480 bye

00:34:42.680 bye

00:34:43.320 you

00:34:44.340 Thank you.

00:35:14.340 Thank you.

00:35:44.340 Thank you.

00:36:14.340 Thank you.

00:36:44.340 Thank you.

00:37:14.340 Thank you.

RadixJournal - July 29, 2014

First Class Victims

Episode Stats

Summary

Transcript