RadixJournal - July 29, 2014


First Class Victims


Episode Stats

Length

37 minutes

Words per Minute

136.38531

Word Count

5,147

Sentence Count

130

Misogynist Sentences

4

Hate Speech Sentences

16


Summary

On July 17th, a Malaysian Airlines flight carrying 298 passengers and crew was shot down over the rebel-held territory of eastern Ukraine, and all of the passengers were killed. What could be the cause of this tragedy? Is it the work of pro-Russians or pro-Ukrainian separatists? Or was the plane shot down by mistake or on purpose by the Kiev government? In this episode, we discuss the possibility that the plane was downed by mistake by pro-Russian separatists.


Transcript

00:00:00.000 Manuel, thank you for being back on the program.
00:00:03.020 You're welcome.
00:00:03.780 Well, Manuel, I want to talk about the recent tragedy that occurred in Ukraine,
00:00:10.820 and that is the downing of the Malaysian Airlines Flight 17 on July 17th of this year.
00:00:19.100 And before we get into interpretation and get into some of the possibilities,
00:00:25.780 why don't you just tell our listeners objectively what happened?
00:00:32.820 Because here in America and in Western Europe, we've seen headlines like Putin's missile,
00:00:40.180 which was put on some British tabloid between photos of Kim Kardashian's bikini body.
00:00:49.100 And there's been a lot of misinformation going on.
00:00:52.280 But again, before we get into interpretation, why don't you just say as objectively as possible what happened?
00:01:00.000 Well, I think it's a very quick thing to tell what happened.
00:01:06.700 A civilian airplane with almost 300 passengers was flying over the battle zone of eastern Ukraine,
00:01:14.880 where the war is going on now since months, and was obviously shot down by something,
00:01:21.920 by a rocket, by whatever, and crushed, and all the passengers died.
00:01:28.520 So this is what we know for sure until today.
00:01:33.260 And that's it already.
00:01:34.840 So what do you think happened?
00:01:40.120 You know, listening to the American media, when it first happened, there were a lot of insinuations
00:01:46.720 that this was Putin's missile, as I mentioned earlier, that this was some malicious Russian plot.
00:01:53.820 For what end, I don't understand.
00:01:55.740 But I think there's been a more general consensus in the Western and American media
00:02:02.860 that the plane was brought down most likely by mistake by what, in their words,
00:02:11.360 are Russian-backed militants or Russian-backed separatists.
00:02:15.220 And that they have downed...
00:02:16.740 These are the separatists in eastern Ukraine who don't want to be a part of the Kiev government
00:02:22.680 and who are being viciously attacked by the Kiev government.
00:02:26.500 And that they, by accident, shot down this plane with an air-to-surface defense system.
00:02:33.540 The BUK, I think, is what is...
00:02:36.500 But so why don't we just talk about that?
00:02:39.600 Do you think that that is a probable or plausible scenario?
00:02:44.460 I think we are right now in the situation that one of the most unlikely scenarios,
00:02:50.620 and that is the scenario you told, that it was so-called pro-Russian separatists
00:02:56.500 who are local defense forces.
00:02:59.480 They are right now doing a war against the Ukrainian army
00:03:02.760 and against paramilitary units who are connected to the Ukrainian army in that region.
00:03:08.260 So to connect that to the so-called pro-Russian separatists
00:03:14.200 that they downed by accident or on purpose,
00:03:17.600 both things are in the western mainstream media already mentioned, by the way,
00:03:22.180 it's a very unlikely scenario.
00:03:25.940 It is unlikely because the plane was flying more than 10,000 meters above the ground,
00:03:37.140 and you need for this just certain weaponry systems.
00:03:42.660 So what we hear always is this BUK weapon system.
00:03:48.860 And at the beginning, the West accused those people's defense militias
00:03:55.600 that they stole or that they captured one of those BUK weapon systems
00:03:59.980 and that they shot down the plane with that weaponry system.
00:04:03.240 Today we know, and we know this because of the Kiev government,
00:04:06.860 the prosecutor general mentioned it himself in an interview,
00:04:12.880 he said that not just one single BUK weaponry system of the Ukrainian army
00:04:18.580 was getting lost somehow in the war.
00:04:21.720 So we can say for sure it's very unlikely that these pro-Russian fighters
00:04:26.820 had the weaponry system to down that airplane.
00:04:31.060 They don't have an interest to down that airplane.
00:04:33.880 This is also so we can exclude that.
00:04:37.540 And I even think we could exclude this from both sides
00:04:41.020 because nobody has an interest to kill 300 civilians just so.
00:04:46.140 So right now in western mainstream media,
00:04:50.240 it seems like the most unlikely conspiracy theory is presented as the truth.
00:04:57.140 But this is not new, by the way.
00:04:58.600 When we look back, for example, just last year in fall,
00:05:04.060 we had the chemical attack in Syria, in Gauta,
00:05:09.640 where the West accused the Syrian army that they used chemical weapons
00:05:14.820 against rebels and against civilians,
00:05:17.240 where not just one single evidence was given
00:05:20.360 that those weapons were really used by the Syrian government.
00:05:23.980 But anyway, they were accused they did that.
00:05:27.260 And this was maybe the most unlikely conspiracy theory
00:05:30.320 because also the Syrian government has no interest at all to do so.
00:05:34.780 And the West, in particular, Barack Obama was calling chemical weapons
00:05:40.960 as the so-called red line.
00:05:43.440 So then the West has to interfere in a military way.
00:05:46.220 So the Syrian government didn't have any interest to use those weapons,
00:05:50.300 especially at the same time when that happened in Gauta.
00:05:54.620 It was the time when inspectors, UN inspectors, were in the country,
00:05:58.980 so right in front of the nose of those inspectors.
00:06:02.040 So I think we can compare this now as well.
00:06:05.200 The West is very quick with acquisitions.
00:06:07.840 And in Germany, by the way, the newspapers,
00:06:11.240 especially the yellow press, is doing the same campaign.
00:06:14.860 But also Western politicians.
00:06:16.240 I think we both are used to that Western politicians
00:06:20.020 know immediately who committed a crime
00:06:23.800 or who committed a war crime
00:06:25.040 before any investigation takes place.
00:06:28.160 Yes, I agree.
00:06:29.120 Well, let's talk about cui bono, that is, who benefits.
00:06:32.600 Because I think that is one of the most precise means
00:06:36.980 of getting at the truth of something.
00:06:39.500 And again, that's not a definitive answer to any question.
00:06:43.040 But I think it can often really help us understand.
00:06:47.140 And I agree that the Russian separatists
00:06:50.140 do not benefit in the slightest by downing a civilian aircraft.
00:06:55.800 It makes them seem like crazies.
00:06:59.280 It makes them seem like awful people.
00:07:01.920 It just does not make sense.
00:07:04.740 Do you think that the Ukrainian government
00:07:08.060 might have thought that they could have benefited
00:07:11.080 by the downing of this airplane
00:07:13.500 in the sense that it brings the Ukrainian conflict
00:07:16.820 back into the public consciousness,
00:07:18.960 it brings it back onto the front page of papers and websites,
00:07:23.360 and that this could be used as kind of a 9-11-like tragedy,
00:07:29.040 and it might make it more likely that NATO
00:07:33.900 or some kind of constellation of forces
00:07:37.220 would intervene on their behalf directly?
00:07:40.600 Do you think that that is a plausible scenario?
00:07:44.080 I think there are two important aspects when we discuss this.
00:07:48.420 So aspect number one is that it is less unlikely
00:07:53.060 that the Ukrainian military shot that plane down
00:07:57.420 than that the so-called pro-Russian separatists shot it down.
00:08:01.780 It is more likely that the Ukrainians did it.
00:08:04.300 Now, without any interest, without any other things,
00:08:06.740 when we speak about the means,
00:08:08.140 when we speak about the opportunity to do so,
00:08:11.460 when we speak about the ability.
00:08:13.520 So this is much more likely that the Ukrainians did it.
00:08:16.500 And when we look now to the second aspect,
00:08:18.920 the second aspect is, in my opinion,
00:08:20.600 the more important one, it is that we see
00:08:23.560 that the Ukrainian government tries since months
00:08:27.420 to provoke Russia, to provoke Moscow,
00:08:31.140 to provoke the Russian military
00:08:32.480 to get into a sort of open war against Ukraine.
00:08:35.940 Now we can discuss why should somebody do so.
00:08:39.000 I mean, isn't that crazy when you have a Ukraine,
00:08:41.800 a little state, if you compare it to Russia,
00:08:44.200 you have a weak military, you have the Russian strong military.
00:08:46.800 So why would you do such a suicidal thing
00:08:49.260 to provoke your strong neighbor to do so?
00:08:52.360 So you must have an interest to do that.
00:08:55.260 So what is very likely is that there are agreements
00:08:59.200 and that there are promises given by the West,
00:09:01.740 in particular by NATO, but also by the European Union
00:09:04.380 and, of course, by several Western states
00:09:06.500 like the United States, but as well the United Kingdom.
00:09:11.420 They are also very much involved in this,
00:09:13.700 that they say in case of an open war,
00:09:15.980 you will get our full support.
00:09:17.660 So when we see now that within the last four months
00:09:21.560 there were countless violations
00:09:23.480 of the Ukrainian-Russian border by the Ukrainian side,
00:09:27.880 so there were Russian border guards were shot,
00:09:30.980 there were shellings coming to the Russian border.
00:09:33.760 There were so many provocations to provoke the Russian army
00:09:36.800 simply maybe to just to go a couple of kilometers
00:09:40.020 on Ukrainian territory to stop those attacks.
00:09:43.580 But this would, of course, be the casus belli, officially.
00:09:47.780 So Russia is in that situation that they don't let provoke themselves.
00:09:52.400 Since months they stay strong.
00:09:54.580 At the same time, the fighters in eastern Ukraine,
00:09:58.240 the pro-Russian fighters, call Moscow desperately for help.
00:10:01.980 They say they should come, they should establish a non-flight zone
00:10:05.460 or a sort of humanitarian corridor.
00:10:08.200 But, so this is also an aspect.
00:10:12.880 And when we see now the reaction,
00:10:15.900 the international reaction on the shooting against that plane,
00:10:19.700 on the crash of that plane,
00:10:22.220 and we see that Russia was blamed immediately
00:10:24.100 before the first observer, before the first investigator
00:10:28.860 was seeing the first little part of the plane,
00:10:32.840 the western mainstream media and the western politics
00:10:35.120 knew already exactly that it was Putin himself
00:10:38.520 who gave the order.
00:10:39.740 This is what we can read.
00:10:41.220 This is what we can read everywhere.
00:10:43.600 So it fits in this bigger scenario
00:10:46.440 to provoke Russia, to demonize Russia, of course.
00:10:50.420 To demonize Russia, it's the barbarian country.
00:10:53.840 It's a country where civilian airplanes are shot down for no reason.
00:10:58.020 And, of course, when we see this all in this context,
00:11:02.580 it's the Ukrainian government which benefits of the campaign now
00:11:06.940 and which would benefit as well if Russia is provoked enough
00:11:11.160 and would do, maybe in the eyes of Moscow,
00:11:14.260 the mistake to interfere now in an open way.
00:11:17.240 Yes.
00:11:17.580 No, and I'm not exactly certain that Washington and Barack Obama
00:11:25.940 and NATO would actually directly intervene in a Ukrainian campaign.
00:11:32.660 I think there is a great deal of war wariness,
00:11:37.340 obviously amongst the public,
00:11:40.420 but I think also amongst Barack Obama
00:11:44.560 and I think a lot of people,
00:11:45.540 I think there are different factions within Washington.
00:11:48.320 There is without question a neoconservative,
00:11:51.280 a neoliberal faction,
00:11:52.660 someone like Victoria Nuland being maybe the most obvious example
00:11:56.360 that would really love to do to intervene in Ukraine
00:12:01.020 and maybe even get in an open war with Russia.
00:12:03.800 But I think I'm just simply not certain
00:12:06.320 that the president with his veto power would want to do that.
00:12:12.300 I don't think it's about now an open war against Russia
00:12:15.420 that if a Russian soldier would step his boot on Ukrainian soul
00:12:20.440 in a very official way,
00:12:22.740 that it would automatically cause a war between Russia and the West.
00:12:26.500 I think something else.
00:12:27.700 I think that in that moment,
00:12:29.540 several agreements would become valuable.
00:12:32.500 For example,
00:12:33.440 we know very well that the Kiev government is completely bankrupt.
00:12:37.860 So that state has no money at all.
00:12:40.080 But in that moment,
00:12:41.100 a lot of help would be valuable.
00:12:44.680 I think for the Kiev government,
00:12:47.700 it's a very weird perspective that, you know,
00:12:50.960 in case of a strategic drama in your country,
00:12:56.000 you will survive longer
00:12:57.180 because then, of course,
00:12:58.980 the European Union would support a lot
00:13:00.900 with money, of course,
00:13:02.500 with financial help,
00:13:03.420 but as well with military hardware.
00:13:06.300 I don't think that the American army would come
00:13:09.020 and help the Ukrainians.
00:13:11.520 But when we look at Ukraine,
00:13:14.240 we should see the country
00:13:15.320 not as an ally of the West,
00:13:18.240 but we should see it maybe more or less
00:13:19.860 like a giant geopolitical mousetrap for the Russians.
00:13:23.980 So they want to step the Russians into that mousetrap.
00:13:26.820 Then they arm,
00:13:29.080 they mobilize the Ukrainian army,
00:13:32.100 the paramilitary units,
00:13:34.100 and they would, of course,
00:13:35.140 involve the Russian army
00:13:36.320 in a lot of fights on Ukrainian territory
00:13:38.420 without the direct involvement of the United States.
00:13:41.500 I'm convinced that even in that case,
00:13:43.980 there would be an American politician like John Kerry
00:13:46.300 who would offer himself to negotiate
00:13:48.580 between both sides and so on.
00:13:51.540 So we see the same in Palestine right now,
00:13:55.820 in Gaza,
00:13:56.440 where the country which is supporting very strong
00:14:00.140 one of the war parties,
00:14:03.400 namely Israel,
00:14:04.980 offers itself as a negotiator,
00:14:07.980 as a neutral.
00:14:09.260 So this could happen as well also in Ukraine.
00:14:13.680 So we should see it from that perspective
00:14:15.380 to weaken down Russia,
00:14:16.820 to get Russia involved
00:14:18.500 in a maybe really ugly war
00:14:21.160 which would take place there,
00:14:22.760 maybe in a sort of partisan war
00:14:24.540 with a lot of cruelty,
00:14:26.620 with a lot of casualties,
00:14:29.180 of course,
00:14:29.620 with a lot of civilian casualties,
00:14:32.060 most probably on both sides.
00:14:34.360 And this would weaken down Russia.
00:14:36.160 I think what is worrying right now
00:14:39.440 for the neocon faction in the West
00:14:41.640 is when they see the rise of Russia,
00:14:45.000 the quick rise of Russia
00:14:46.120 with Vladimir Putin,
00:14:47.380 when they think back
00:14:48.380 how great was Russia,
00:14:50.400 how great was it to see Russia
00:14:52.000 when Boris Yeltsin
00:14:53.780 was the president of that country.
00:14:55.740 How weak was it?
00:14:56.440 It was almost the neocon colony
00:14:58.180 in that time.
00:14:58.940 And when we look at Russia now,
00:15:00.600 it completely,
00:15:02.040 it somehow reborn.
00:15:04.080 And in a very quick time,
00:15:05.240 we speak about a time
00:15:06.400 I mean of 10,
00:15:07.140 15 years
00:15:07.780 when this country managed
00:15:08.920 to reorganize itself
00:15:10.200 and to be all of a sudden
00:15:11.360 a global player again.
00:15:13.000 With a Ukrainian battlefield,
00:15:14.600 of course,
00:15:16.520 Russia would be so much busy.
00:15:19.180 And of course,
00:15:20.000 it would have
00:15:20.620 inner political consequences as well.
00:15:23.620 They would have a peace faction.
00:15:25.040 There would be liberals
00:15:25.820 in the Kremlin
00:15:26.640 who would argue against that war.
00:15:28.740 You would have the Falcons as well
00:15:30.420 who would say,
00:15:31.020 yes, we have to attack
00:15:31.860 directly now the West.
00:15:33.660 So you could bring
00:15:35.260 a lot of trouble.
00:15:36.220 So I think Ukraine
00:15:37.100 is a sort of that mousetrap.
00:15:38.980 And in particular,
00:15:40.360 the Kiev government
00:15:41.100 knows very well
00:15:41.940 they are bankrupt.
00:15:43.280 They don't have a lot of future.
00:15:44.600 right now
00:15:45.180 and it's
00:15:45.940 I mean,
00:15:46.620 it sounds cynical
00:15:48.280 and discynical
00:15:49.160 when you know that
00:15:50.060 a war
00:15:50.880 might keep you
00:15:52.300 longer alive.
00:15:54.160 And this is
00:15:55.000 at least for the Kiev government
00:15:56.420 it's a very valuable situation
00:15:58.500 right now.
00:15:59.480 Yes,
00:15:59.760 I think that's
00:16:00.580 a very sound analysis.
00:16:02.440 And it is interesting
00:16:03.320 to compare this
00:16:04.200 to the war on terror
00:16:05.220 when, you know,
00:16:06.020 say 10 or 12 years ago
00:16:07.720 when
00:16:08.140 there was really
00:16:09.640 the enemy
00:16:10.240 was living in a cave
00:16:11.940 or, you know,
00:16:13.300 issuing
00:16:13.680 VHS
00:16:15.260 odd
00:16:16.020 VHS videos
00:16:17.500 declaring
00:16:18.140 the end of the West
00:16:19.600 or something like that.
00:16:20.740 In terms of
00:16:21.580 this
00:16:22.780 cold war
00:16:23.880 Washington wants
00:16:25.240 to generate
00:16:25.740 with Russia,
00:16:27.080 they're dealing
00:16:27.840 with people
00:16:28.320 who are
00:16:28.860 much more competent
00:16:30.680 and who are
00:16:31.820 really able
00:16:32.520 to engage
00:16:33.360 in an information war.
00:16:35.020 Thinking back
00:16:35.820 to this
00:16:36.140 recent press conference
00:16:37.820 by the Russian military
00:16:39.580 and they were
00:16:40.520 actually issuing
00:16:41.280 a lot of
00:16:43.360 valuable information.
00:16:45.480 First off
00:16:45.880 about the
00:16:46.600 actual
00:16:48.480 these BUK
00:16:49.580 devices
00:16:50.060 that they have
00:16:51.460 I guess
00:16:52.780 some
00:16:53.060 through
00:16:54.620 their surveillance
00:16:56.260 they've discovered
00:16:57.140 these BUK devices
00:16:58.120 of the Ukrainian military
00:16:59.460 and that these
00:17:00.700 were actually
00:17:01.220 being stepped up.
00:17:02.340 I think there were
00:17:02.800 nine present
00:17:03.960 during July 17th.
00:17:06.060 So, you know,
00:17:07.560 again,
00:17:07.960 this is information
00:17:09.220 that really
00:17:10.400 changes your view
00:17:13.420 of the
00:17:14.200 master narrative
00:17:15.980 put forth
00:17:16.580 by the Western media.
00:17:19.260 You know,
00:17:19.480 we should be very cautious
00:17:20.760 in talking about this
00:17:21.780 because we're talking
00:17:22.980 about possibilities
00:17:23.920 and probabilities.
00:17:24.820 We're not talking
00:17:25.600 about certainties.
00:17:26.360 But, you know,
00:17:27.600 as I just mentioned
00:17:29.080 there were these
00:17:29.580 BUK devices
00:17:30.700 used by the
00:17:31.660 Ukrainian military
00:17:32.700 in position
00:17:33.880 to knock down
00:17:35.200 a plane.
00:17:36.060 There was also
00:17:36.660 the issue
00:17:37.140 of the plane
00:17:37.700 going off course
00:17:39.720 rather dramatically
00:17:40.800 that, you know,
00:17:42.560 all civilian airlines
00:17:44.060 are avoiding
00:17:44.820 this war area
00:17:45.780 as they should
00:17:46.460 but this plane
00:17:47.980 was diverted
00:17:48.620 to the north
00:17:49.420 and, you know,
00:17:50.860 it's questioned
00:17:51.660 whether we
00:17:52.060 if we have
00:17:52.520 the so-called
00:17:53.000 black box
00:17:53.800 in this plane
00:17:54.400 whether there
00:17:55.640 might be actually
00:17:56.780 flight information
00:17:58.260 from Kiev
00:17:59.580 ordering it
00:18:00.460 into the war zone.
00:18:01.880 There's also
00:18:02.460 this interesting person
00:18:03.780 and I would say
00:18:04.360 that we should
00:18:04.880 deal with a lot
00:18:05.940 of caution
00:18:06.460 with this matter
00:18:07.200 but a so-called
00:18:08.580 Carlos
00:18:09.060 who was in
00:18:10.400 I believe
00:18:10.860 the Kiev
00:18:11.900 air traffic control
00:18:13.520 and he was
00:18:15.040 actually tweeting
00:18:15.960 and I'll definitely
00:18:18.640 put a link
00:18:19.120 to this
00:18:19.520 in the show notes
00:18:20.760 and I would
00:18:21.160 reiterate again
00:18:22.260 that we should deal
00:18:22.980 with this information
00:18:24.040 cautiously
00:18:24.620 but he was
00:18:25.640 tweeting a lot
00:18:26.520 of things
00:18:26.940 that really
00:18:28.020 shake up
00:18:28.760 the narrative
00:18:29.200 and that was
00:18:30.080 that there were
00:18:30.760 Ukrainian fighters
00:18:32.220 near this plane
00:18:33.940 that they were
00:18:34.400 escorting it away
00:18:35.340 and he
00:18:35.660 what do you think
00:18:37.820 maybe just
00:18:39.220 I don't
00:18:39.820 I know that
00:18:40.660 no one
00:18:41.140 has a definitive
00:18:42.000 answer to this
00:18:42.720 but maybe you
00:18:43.780 could just talk
00:18:44.440 about what
00:18:45.080 might have
00:18:45.740 happened
00:18:46.200 on that day.
00:18:48.040 Oh
00:18:48.160 this is
00:18:49.480 well
00:18:50.380 at least I think
00:18:51.500 this is a storybook
00:18:52.640 for a lot
00:18:53.640 of movies
00:18:54.540 and for a lot
00:18:55.600 of different
00:18:56.620 movies
00:18:57.540 for a lot
00:18:58.040 of different
00:18:58.500 dramas
00:18:59.160 you can
00:18:59.700 be done by that
00:19:00.680 and I heard
00:19:01.480 also about
00:19:02.840 those air traffic
00:19:04.120 theories
00:19:04.700 why was the plane
00:19:06.340 flying above
00:19:07.140 eastern Ukraine
00:19:07.920 why wasn't it
00:19:08.800 flying on its
00:19:09.420 original course
00:19:10.160 500 kilometers
00:19:11.040 more in the south
00:19:11.840 what would have
00:19:12.400 been I think
00:19:13.140 Crimea
00:19:13.480 but at the same
00:19:14.640 time we get
00:19:15.300 on the other side
00:19:16.180 a lot of
00:19:16.580 explanations
00:19:17.200 that there
00:19:18.220 is until
00:19:18.640 today
00:19:19.020 it's not
00:19:19.380 clear who
00:19:19.960 is controlling
00:19:20.660 the airspace
00:19:21.560 above the
00:19:23.060 Crimea
00:19:23.700 it's not the
00:19:24.660 Russians
00:19:24.920 but it's the
00:19:25.520 Ukraine
00:19:25.860 so there
00:19:26.400 are many
00:19:28.100 many different
00:19:29.000 theories
00:19:29.660 and I'm also
00:19:30.780 very careful
00:19:32.260 I know also
00:19:33.120 I'm convinced
00:19:34.520 you heard about
00:19:35.220 that theory
00:19:35.860 that Vladimir
00:19:36.620 Putin's plane
00:19:37.500 was flying
00:19:38.760 in almost
00:19:40.120 the same
00:19:40.640 airspace
00:19:41.360 at this
00:19:42.180 day
00:19:42.680 and that
00:19:43.160 it might
00:19:43.560 have
00:19:43.860 that the
00:19:44.980 Ukrainian side
00:19:45.720 might have
00:19:46.220 wanted to
00:19:46.680 shoot down
00:19:47.300 his airplane
00:19:48.320 but
00:19:49.420 you know
00:19:51.340 as you said
00:19:52.480 we have to
00:19:52.980 be very
00:19:53.840 careful
00:19:54.260 and we have
00:19:55.020 there a lot
00:19:55.580 of highly
00:19:56.740 hypothetic
00:19:57.680 narratives
00:19:59.060 about that
00:20:00.040 thing
00:20:00.660 it's
00:20:02.560 it is not
00:20:03.760 very easy
00:20:04.460 to deal
00:20:05.320 with all
00:20:05.740 these things
00:20:06.160 but I think
00:20:06.840 we should
00:20:08.100 always get
00:20:08.720 back on the
00:20:09.380 ground
00:20:09.700 and the
00:20:10.400 thing on
00:20:10.740 the ground
00:20:11.100 is that
00:20:12.180 we have
00:20:12.540 right now
00:20:13.100 almost 300
00:20:14.320 casualties
00:20:15.720 300 victims
00:20:16.820 of this
00:20:17.320 crash
00:20:17.680 and we
00:20:18.460 should see
00:20:18.860 how we
00:20:19.640 deal
00:20:20.040 with
00:20:20.780 these
00:20:21.340 victims
00:20:21.840 so
00:20:22.440 beside
00:20:22.980 all
00:20:23.480 who
00:20:24.200 was it
00:20:24.640 exactly
00:20:25.160 and how
00:20:25.740 did it
00:20:26.080 happen
00:20:26.420 then I see
00:20:27.780 following
00:20:28.220 I see
00:20:28.740 that we
00:20:29.360 have the
00:20:30.140 eastern
00:20:30.440 side
00:20:30.800 the Russian
00:20:31.240 side
00:20:31.640 which is
00:20:32.820 very calm
00:20:33.440 which says
00:20:33.800 we have to
00:20:34.400 investigate
00:20:34.940 and we have
00:20:35.540 to investigate
00:20:36.100 all the
00:20:36.600 details
00:20:37.000 and I'm
00:20:37.360 convinced
00:20:37.760 if
00:20:38.640 every
00:20:39.960 detail
00:20:40.440 will be
00:20:41.040 investigated
00:20:41.780 as
00:20:42.360 Moscow
00:20:43.300 and as
00:20:43.760 the Russian
00:20:44.160 side
00:20:44.540 right now
00:20:45.000 proposes
00:20:45.560 to do
00:20:45.960 so
00:20:46.220 we will
00:20:46.880 get
00:20:47.060 answers
00:20:47.540 to all
00:20:48.360 these
00:20:48.680 open
00:20:49.000 questions
00:20:49.560 we were
00:20:50.080 right now
00:20:50.440 mentioning
00:20:50.840 so this
00:20:51.300 is
00:20:51.480 the first
00:20:52.220 part
00:20:52.620 of all
00:20:53.360 this
00:20:53.520 and the
00:20:53.840 second
00:20:54.040 part
00:20:54.420 we have
00:20:55.260 the
00:20:55.640 west
00:20:55.960 and when
00:20:56.720 we look
00:20:57.180 exactly
00:20:57.660 how the
00:20:58.340 west
00:20:58.620 right now
00:20:59.140 reacts
00:20:59.600 and how
00:20:59.940 the west
00:21:00.340 deals
00:21:00.840 with those
00:21:01.360 300
00:21:01.880 almost 300
00:21:02.760 dead people
00:21:03.340 we can
00:21:04.140 say
00:21:04.480 obviously
00:21:05.800 these
00:21:06.220 people
00:21:06.640 are right
00:21:07.460 now
00:21:07.700 between
00:21:08.080 being
00:21:08.500 victims
00:21:08.960 first
00:21:09.340 class
00:21:09.780 and
00:21:10.100 victims
00:21:10.500 second
00:21:11.020 class
00:21:11.500 I think
00:21:12.320 you know
00:21:12.560 what I mean
00:21:13.020 they will
00:21:13.400 be
00:21:13.560 victims
00:21:13.920 first
00:21:14.280 class
00:21:14.660 if the
00:21:15.040 west
00:21:15.300 if they
00:21:15.660 can
00:21:15.900 convince
00:21:16.440 the
00:21:16.960 western
00:21:17.340 politics
00:21:18.040 and the
00:21:18.320 western
00:21:18.520 societies
00:21:19.040 that Russia
00:21:19.580 down that
00:21:20.100 plane
00:21:20.300 then these
00:21:20.740 people
00:21:21.000 are
00:21:21.180 victims
00:21:21.440 first
00:21:21.740 class
00:21:22.100 but if
00:21:23.220 ever
00:21:23.580 will
00:21:23.820 come
00:21:24.080 out
00:21:24.440 that
00:21:24.940 the
00:21:25.100 Ukrainian
00:21:25.540 side
00:21:26.080 and there
00:21:26.800 will be
00:21:27.040 the evidence
00:21:27.540 that the
00:21:27.900 Ukrainian
00:21:28.260 side
00:21:28.600 was
00:21:28.780 shooting
00:21:29.120 that
00:21:29.380 plane
00:21:29.660 down
00:21:29.960 these
00:21:30.540 poor
00:21:30.780 people
00:21:31.080 will be
00:21:31.580 victims
00:21:32.260 second
00:21:34.480 of social
00:21:35.020 media
00:21:35.400 and
00:21:36.140 especially
00:21:36.800 also
00:21:37.220 on
00:21:37.460 twitter
00:21:37.700 within
00:21:38.100 the
00:21:38.320 last
00:21:38.540 days
00:21:38.840 since
00:21:39.060 the
00:21:39.240 plane
00:21:39.440 was
00:21:39.700 down
00:21:39.960 you
00:21:40.760 don't
00:21:41.060 read
00:21:41.300 a lot
00:21:41.540 from
00:21:41.760 western
00:21:42.080 side
00:21:42.660 or
00:21:44.000 shall
00:21:44.140 I
00:21:44.320 say
00:21:44.580 real
00:21:45.120 the
00:21:47.040 people
00:21:47.540 don't
00:21:48.020 really
00:21:48.320 participate
00:21:49.000 in
00:21:49.760 they are
00:21:52.020 not really
00:21:52.660 sad
00:21:53.180 about
00:21:53.600 what
00:21:53.820 happened
00:21:54.060 they are
00:21:54.460 more
00:21:55.620 to
00:21:55.920 blame
00:21:56.340 now
00:21:56.900 somebody
00:21:57.680 while
00:21:58.240 the
00:21:58.380 Russian
00:21:59.840 side
00:22:00.320 was
00:22:01.800 expressing
00:22:03.120 the
00:22:03.740 sadness
00:22:04.380 and the
00:22:04.960 mourning
00:22:05.200 you find
00:22:05.640 from
00:22:05.880 the
00:22:06.040 western
00:22:06.320 side
00:22:06.700 very
00:22:06.940 much
00:22:07.240 now
00:22:07.460 it's
00:22:07.680 all
00:22:08.000 about
00:22:08.340 to
00:22:08.600 blame
00:22:08.940 somebody
00:22:09.880 and
00:22:10.140 you
00:22:10.280 find
00:22:10.560 cynical
00:22:11.020 comments
00:22:11.580 so
00:22:12.280 the
00:22:12.440 victims
00:22:12.820 are
00:22:13.280 to say
00:22:14.180 it
00:22:14.300 like
00:22:14.480 this
00:22:14.720 the
00:22:14.980 human
00:22:15.260 life
00:22:15.940 of
00:22:16.340 these
00:22:16.560 victims
00:22:16.940 is
00:22:17.240 as
00:22:17.560 valuable
00:22:18.080 as
00:22:19.200 the
00:22:20.000 side
00:22:20.360 which
00:22:20.620 can
00:22:20.880 be
00:22:21.040 blamed
00:22:21.340 for
00:22:21.640 their
00:22:21.840 death
00:22:23.080 and
00:22:23.600 I
00:22:23.760 think
00:22:24.080 that's
00:22:25.060 the
00:22:25.200 big
00:22:25.360 danger
00:22:25.780 of
00:22:26.160 those
00:22:26.400 investigations
00:22:27.040 right
00:22:27.480 now
00:22:27.660 that
00:22:27.900 there
00:22:28.120 will
00:22:28.280 be
00:22:28.440 never
00:22:28.700 a
00:22:28.960 real
00:22:29.160 investigation
00:22:29.720 because
00:22:30.280 they
00:22:31.080 want
00:22:31.340 to
00:22:31.480 have
00:22:31.660 those
00:22:31.980 victims
00:22:32.400 as
00:22:32.600 victims
00:22:32.920 first
00:22:33.260 class
00:22:33.640 and
00:22:33.820 victims
00:22:34.100 first
00:22:34.400 class
00:22:34.720 are
00:22:35.120 the
00:22:35.580 victims
00:22:35.920 of
00:22:36.140 Vladimir
00:22:36.440 Putin
00:22:36.860 the
00:22:37.480 victims
00:22:37.880 of
00:22:38.420 Petrov
00:22:38.760 Poroshenko
00:22:39.440 would
00:22:39.680 just be
00:22:40.040 victims
00:22:40.360 second
00:22:40.640 class
00:22:40.940 and
00:22:41.080 by the
00:22:41.300 way
00:22:41.460 this
00:22:41.680 is
00:22:41.820 also
00:22:42.300 nothing
00:22:43.060 new
00:22:43.420 we
00:22:43.960 know
00:22:44.140 this
00:22:44.320 also
00:22:44.600 from
00:22:44.880 the
00:22:45.060 Syrian
00:22:45.360 battleground
00:22:46.080 Christians
00:22:47.800 who are
00:22:48.400 killed
00:22:48.780 and
00:22:49.280 crucified
00:22:49.720 by
00:22:50.600 the
00:22:50.740 fighters
00:22:51.160 by
00:22:51.540 the
00:22:51.760 by
00:22:51.960 the
00:22:52.140 Sunni
00:22:52.380 extremist
00:22:52.800 fighters
00:22:53.120 of
00:22:53.360 the
00:22:53.500 Islamic
00:22:53.860 state
00:22:54.240 are
00:22:55.040 victims
00:22:55.300 second
00:22:55.600 class
00:22:56.000 and
00:22:56.960 those
00:22:57.480 who
00:22:57.680 were
00:22:57.860 killed
00:22:58.200 during
00:22:58.760 the
00:22:58.940 war
00:22:59.100 by
00:22:59.280 the
00:22:59.440 Syrian
00:22:59.700 army
00:23:00.040 are
00:23:00.200 the
00:23:00.280 victims
00:23:00.560 first
00:23:00.860 class
00:23:01.240 the
00:23:02.480 journalist
00:23:03.060 who
00:23:03.760 is
00:23:04.040 kidnapped
00:23:04.980 by
00:23:05.860 Islamist
00:23:06.700 fighters
00:23:07.280 in
00:23:07.680 Syria
00:23:08.000 we
00:23:08.620 don't
00:23:08.860 know
00:23:09.020 his
00:23:09.200 name
00:23:09.480 the
00:23:09.700 journalist
00:23:10.040 who
00:23:10.260 is
00:23:10.380 arrested
00:23:10.720 by
00:23:10.980 the
00:23:11.160 Syrian
00:23:11.420 army
00:23:11.840 he
00:23:12.520 will
00:23:12.660 have
00:23:12.900 a
00:23:13.180 big
00:23:13.360 campaign
00:23:13.880 for
00:23:14.140 his
00:23:14.320 life
00:23:14.660 so
00:23:15.240 we
00:23:15.460 have
00:23:15.720 everywhere
00:23:16.220 this
00:23:16.500 first
00:23:16.740 and
00:23:16.920 second
00:23:17.140 class
00:23:17.520 and
00:23:17.680 this
00:23:17.840 doesn't
00:23:18.160 help
00:23:18.360 at
00:23:18.500 all
00:23:18.800 in
00:23:19.300 any
00:23:19.500 investigation
00:23:20.100 and
00:23:20.700 this
00:23:20.880 is
00:23:21.080 right
00:23:21.360 now
00:23:21.620 the
00:23:21.880 big
00:23:22.260 danger
00:23:22.680 when
00:23:27.860 know
00:23:28.280 all
00:23:28.780 who
00:23:29.540 is
00:23:29.840 to
00:23:30.020 blame
00:23:30.300 yes
00:23:32.100 I
00:23:32.420 think
00:23:32.760 that
00:23:32.920 was
00:23:33.080 very
00:23:33.420 articulate
00:23:34.000 some
00:23:35.460 victims
00:23:36.340 are
00:23:36.820 more
00:23:37.700 important
00:23:38.200 than
00:23:38.500 others
00:23:38.840 and
00:23:39.040 those
00:23:39.220 are
00:23:39.300 the
00:23:39.420 ones
00:23:39.640 that
00:23:39.780 can
00:23:39.900 fit
00:23:40.300 into
00:23:40.660 a
00:23:40.960 geopolitical
00:23:42.220 plan
00:23:42.800 and
00:23:44.140 I
00:23:44.700 think
00:23:45.060 that's
00:23:45.280 an
00:23:45.420 excellent
00:23:45.700 way
00:23:45.940 of
00:23:46.060 putting
00:23:46.260 it
00:23:46.400 first
00:23:46.700 and
00:23:46.860 second
00:23:47.020 class
00:23:47.300 victims
00:23:47.680 before
00:23:48.580 we
00:23:49.100 put
00:23:49.920 a
00:23:50.060 bookmark
00:23:50.460 in
00:23:50.640 this
00:23:50.860 conversation
00:23:51.640 I
00:23:52.520 just
00:23:52.880 want
00:23:53.040 to
00:23:53.160 return
00:23:53.740 quickly
00:23:54.360 to
00:23:54.540 something
00:23:54.760 we
00:23:54.920 were
00:23:55.000 talking
00:23:55.240 about
00:23:55.500 earlier
00:23:55.920 and
00:23:56.320 that
00:23:56.620 is
00:23:56.980 this
00:23:57.340 notion
00:23:57.860 that
00:23:58.140 the
00:23:58.300 Kiev
00:23:58.560 government
00:23:59.120 is
00:23:59.940 at
00:24:00.200 a
00:24:00.360 breaking
00:24:00.740 point
00:24:01.280 as
00:24:02.180 it
00:24:02.320 were
00:24:02.600 in
00:24:02.880 terms
00:24:03.360 of
00:24:03.860 being
00:24:04.340 bankrupt
00:24:05.020 do
00:24:06.080 you
00:24:06.400 think
00:24:06.800 that
00:24:07.840 they're
00:24:08.080 going
00:24:08.240 to
00:24:08.380 hit
00:24:08.620 the
00:24:08.840 wall
00:24:09.240 at
00:24:09.480 some
00:24:09.660 point
00:24:10.060 in
00:24:10.840 this
00:24:11.260 upcoming
00:24:11.920 year
00:24:12.460 in
00:24:12.780 terms
00:24:13.360 of
00:24:13.580 not
00:24:13.840 being
00:24:14.060 able
00:24:14.320 to
00:24:14.640 provide
00:24:15.020 services
00:24:15.520 not
00:24:15.820 being
00:24:16.000 able
00:24:16.160 to
00:24:16.260 provide
00:24:16.540 pensions
00:24:17.480 and
00:24:17.660 so
00:24:17.820 forth
00:24:18.100 and
00:24:18.960 that
00:24:19.320 we
00:24:19.620 might
00:24:19.980 reach
00:24:21.360 some
00:24:21.620 kind
00:24:21.840 of
00:24:21.960 climax
00:24:22.580 to
00:24:22.760 this
00:24:22.860 situation
00:24:23.340 where
00:24:23.760 either
00:24:24.720 the
00:24:25.060 West
00:24:25.400 really
00:24:25.840 goes
00:24:26.960 all
00:24:27.320 in
00:24:27.620 with
00:24:27.800 Ukraine
00:24:28.180 I
00:24:28.340 mean
00:24:28.420 maybe
00:24:28.640 not
00:24:28.900 a
00:24:29.040 military
00:24:29.320 intervention
00:24:29.760 but
00:24:30.080 determines
00:24:31.240 that
00:24:31.480 it
00:24:31.640 is
00:24:31.780 going
00:24:31.920 to
00:24:32.060 prop
00:24:32.320 up
00:24:32.440 this
00:24:32.640 government
00:24:33.020 or
00:24:34.600 not
00:24:35.040 do
00:24:35.600 you
00:24:35.840 think
00:24:36.000 we're
00:24:36.160 going
00:24:36.240 to
00:24:36.360 reach
00:24:36.780 a
00:24:37.080 breaking
00:24:37.480 point
00:24:37.960 in the
00:24:38.860 next
00:24:39.140 three to
00:24:39.860 six
00:24:40.080 months
00:24:40.400 I
00:24:41.460 I
00:24:41.480 think
00:24:42.040 we have
00:24:42.540 this
00:24:42.800 breaking
00:24:43.140 point
00:24:43.560 already
00:24:43.940 behind
00:24:44.300 us
00:24:44.580 because
00:24:44.820 when
00:24:45.180 we
00:24:45.340 look
00:24:45.500 at
00:24:45.660 Ukraine
00:24:46.240 today
00:24:46.700 the
00:24:48.040 country
00:24:48.500 we
00:24:48.740 see
00:24:49.100 on
00:24:49.660 our
00:24:49.920 maps
00:24:50.320 doesn't
00:24:50.940 exist
00:24:51.300 anymore
00:24:51.680 so
00:24:52.020 we
00:24:52.260 have
00:24:52.560 a
00:24:52.800 divided
00:24:53.140 country
00:24:53.560 we have
00:24:53.920 a
00:24:54.040 country
00:24:54.320 where
00:24:54.580 in
00:24:54.720 the
00:24:54.880 east
00:24:55.100 is
00:24:55.240 a
00:24:55.360 war
00:24:55.560 zone
00:24:55.860 where
00:24:56.760 an
00:24:57.520 army
00:24:57.840 is
00:24:58.160 doing
00:24:58.420 a
00:24:58.620 war
00:24:58.820 against
00:24:59.180 its
00:24:59.420 own
00:24:59.700 civilian
00:25:00.060 population
00:25:00.740 and
00:25:01.380 we
00:25:01.520 have
00:25:01.740 on
00:25:01.900 the
00:25:02.020 western
00:25:02.280 side
00:25:02.720 where
00:25:03.000 the
00:25:03.200 Maidan
00:25:03.620 government
00:25:04.220 is
00:25:04.560 and
00:25:04.740 where
00:25:04.900 also
00:25:05.160 the
00:25:05.320 people
00:25:05.600 are
00:25:05.780 who
00:25:05.920 are
00:25:06.040 supporting
00:25:06.480 this
00:25:06.740 we
00:25:06.940 have
00:25:07.140 already
00:25:07.520 a
00:25:08.140 sort
00:25:08.420 of
00:25:08.740 western
00:25:09.560 or
00:25:10.140 european
00:25:10.800 union
00:25:11.180 protectorate
00:25:12.000 this
00:25:12.260 country
00:25:12.680 couldn't
00:25:13.500 exist
00:25:14.060 without
00:25:14.420 already
00:25:15.140 without
00:25:15.480 the
00:25:15.820 help
00:25:16.060 of
00:25:16.620 the
00:25:16.800 west
00:25:17.080 and
00:25:17.680 this
00:25:17.820 is
00:25:17.940 a
00:25:18.060 very
00:25:18.260 weird
00:25:18.580 situation
00:25:19.060 because
00:25:19.400 this
00:25:19.640 country
00:25:19.960 is
00:25:20.220 ruled
00:25:20.740 by
00:25:21.220 billionaires
00:25:21.860 by
00:25:22.560 very
00:25:23.040 rich
00:25:23.640 people
00:25:24.480 you know
00:25:25.360 that's
00:25:25.800 that's
00:25:26.060 just
00:25:26.200 democracy
00:25:26.900 well
00:25:27.340 you know
00:25:27.560 it's
00:25:27.700 freedom
00:25:28.080 exactly
00:25:30.000 but
00:25:30.420 it's
00:25:30.600 it
00:25:31.020 of course
00:25:31.480 in
00:25:31.780 western
00:25:32.100 Ukraine
00:25:32.500 it's
00:25:32.740 more
00:25:33.160 dramatic
00:25:33.660 than
00:25:34.080 I
00:25:34.260 think
00:25:35.320 european
00:25:35.800 country
00:25:36.460 right
00:25:36.980 now
00:25:37.200 so
00:25:37.800 this
00:25:38.020 is
00:25:38.260 already
00:25:38.640 a
00:25:38.800 protectorate
00:25:39.420 and
00:25:39.640 the
00:25:39.840 leaders
00:25:40.140 of
00:25:40.380 kiev
00:25:40.680 know
00:25:41.000 very
00:25:41.260 well
00:25:41.520 that
00:25:41.700 they
00:25:41.880 are
00:25:42.200 in
00:25:43.460 terms
00:25:43.740 of
00:25:43.880 geopolitics
00:25:44.560 very
00:25:44.900 important
00:25:45.540 for
00:25:46.220 the
00:25:46.400 west
00:25:46.640 that
00:25:46.820 the
00:25:47.080 west
00:25:47.380 wouldn't
00:25:48.260 let
00:25:49.040 them
00:25:49.260 fall
00:25:49.580 apart
00:25:49.980 and
00:25:51.020 the
00:25:51.420 west
00:25:51.740 gives
00:25:52.200 also
00:25:52.520 that
00:25:52.740 signals
00:25:53.100 that
00:25:53.360 they
00:25:53.580 won't
00:25:54.020 do
00:25:54.200 that
00:25:54.400 but
00:25:54.660 it's
00:25:55.340 most
00:25:55.580 likely
00:25:55.980 that
00:25:56.260 western
00:25:56.600 Ukraine
00:25:57.060 will
00:25:57.320 become
00:25:57.640 a
00:25:57.820 sort
00:25:58.120 of
00:25:58.460 bigger
00:25:59.540 Kosovo
00:26:00.380 or
00:26:00.900 maybe
00:26:01.540 a
00:26:01.840 sort
00:26:02.120 of
00:26:02.340 Bosnia
00:26:02.940 where
00:26:04.020 I mean
00:26:04.700 these
00:26:04.900 countries
00:26:05.220 are
00:26:05.440 governed
00:26:06.220 by
00:26:06.500 criminal
00:26:06.920 gangs
00:26:07.340 who
00:26:07.540 call
00:26:07.780 themselves
00:26:08.200 now
00:26:08.520 political
00:26:08.960 parties
00:26:09.520 or
00:26:10.180 political
00:26:10.900 organizations
00:26:11.640 or
00:26:11.960 NGOs
00:26:12.380 and
00:26:13.520 the
00:26:13.880 security
00:26:14.420 and
00:26:14.940 all
00:26:15.480 the
00:26:16.200 economical
00:26:16.960 order
00:26:17.520 is all
00:26:18.040 organized
00:26:18.660 by the
00:26:19.180 European
00:26:19.480 Union
00:26:19.960 or
00:26:20.860 by
00:26:21.300 NATO
00:26:21.640 as well
00:26:22.520 so
00:26:22.780 I think
00:26:23.280 this
00:26:23.680 will be
00:26:24.620 the
00:26:25.500 long-term
00:26:27.120 development
00:26:28.360 of
00:26:28.820 at least
00:26:29.600 western
00:26:30.000 Ukraine
00:26:30.360 we don't
00:26:30.760 know
00:26:30.940 what
00:26:31.140 will
00:26:31.300 happen
00:26:31.520 with
00:26:31.740 eastern
00:26:32.060 Ukraine
00:26:32.420 a lot
00:26:32.720 of
00:26:32.860 depends
00:26:33.240 on
00:26:33.400 what
00:26:33.640 will
00:26:33.860 there
00:26:34.100 happen
00:26:34.420 within
00:26:35.100 the
00:26:35.300 next
00:26:35.520 weeks
00:26:35.920 or
00:26:36.160 months
00:26:36.560 but
00:26:37.620 well
00:26:39.200 to be
00:26:39.700 a little
00:26:40.120 bit
00:26:40.540 how shall
00:26:42.080 I say
00:26:42.620 pessimistic
00:26:46.840 right now
00:26:48.060 it looks
00:26:48.520 like
00:26:48.860 that
00:26:49.160 those
00:26:49.820 independent
00:26:50.840 fighters
00:26:51.380 in the
00:26:51.780 eastern
00:26:51.980 Ukraine
00:26:52.260 get a
00:26:52.720 lot
00:26:53.120 of
00:26:53.300 pressure
00:26:53.680 by the
00:26:54.140 Ukrainian
00:26:54.540 army
00:26:55.020 so
00:26:55.940 it
00:26:56.600 doesn't
00:26:56.900 look like
00:26:57.380 that
00:26:57.720 within
00:26:58.240 the
00:26:58.540 next
00:26:58.800 couple
00:26:59.140 of
00:26:59.360 weeks
00:26:59.760 the
00:27:00.920 army
00:27:01.220 would
00:27:01.480 leave
00:27:01.800 eastern
00:27:02.260 Ukraine
00:27:02.700 and
00:27:02.900 in
00:27:03.040 eastern
00:27:03.260 Ukraine
00:27:03.700 would
00:27:04.120 be
00:27:05.660 established
00:27:06.120 a new
00:27:06.520 state
00:27:06.900 called
00:27:07.240 new
00:27:07.500 Russia
00:27:07.840 or
00:27:08.740 whatever
00:27:09.300 so
00:27:09.940 it
00:27:10.160 will
00:27:10.300 take
00:27:10.580 a
00:27:10.740 while
00:27:11.000 and
00:27:11.160 the
00:27:11.300 war
00:27:11.500 is
00:27:11.660 always
00:27:11.980 very
00:27:12.280 expensive
00:27:12.820 and
00:27:13.420 the
00:27:13.700 Kiev
00:27:13.880 government
00:27:14.300 knows
00:27:14.740 they
00:27:14.940 can
00:27:15.120 rely
00:27:15.400 on
00:27:15.600 the
00:27:15.740 West
00:27:15.980 that
00:27:16.180 the
00:27:16.340 West
00:27:16.580 will
00:27:16.820 help
00:27:17.060 them
00:27:17.240 financing
00:27:17.800 that
00:27:18.620 war
00:27:18.940 and
00:27:19.360 by
00:27:19.520 financing
00:27:20.000 a
00:27:20.300 war
00:27:20.480 they
00:27:20.700 know
00:27:21.000 the
00:27:21.940 West
00:27:22.200 would
00:27:22.400 also
00:27:22.720 finance
00:27:23.280 the
00:27:23.520 state
00:27:23.840 we
00:27:24.300 had
00:27:24.540 already
00:27:24.900 by the
00:27:25.240 way
00:27:25.460 in
00:27:25.640 Ukraine
00:27:26.100 those
00:27:26.540 situations
00:27:27.400 you were
00:27:27.720 mentioning
00:27:28.160 that
00:27:28.640 pensions
00:27:29.240 were not
00:27:29.700 paid
00:27:30.140 or they
00:27:30.540 were paid
00:27:31.080 much
00:27:31.360 too late
00:27:31.740 I was
00:27:32.040 speaking
00:27:32.340 when I
00:27:32.640 was on
00:27:32.960 Crimea
00:27:33.300 during the
00:27:33.860 referendum
00:27:34.300 to some
00:27:35.300 people
00:27:35.600 to
00:27:35.780 Ukrainians
00:27:36.540 who
00:27:37.080 were
00:27:37.380 voting
00:27:37.860 for
00:27:38.160 Russia
00:27:38.480 in the
00:27:39.160 referendum
00:27:39.620 and they
00:27:40.020 told me
00:27:40.420 they
00:27:40.560 are not
00:27:40.820 the
00:27:40.980 big
00:27:41.140 fans
00:27:41.460 of
00:27:41.640 Russia
00:27:41.920 but
00:27:42.160 they
00:27:42.340 know
00:27:42.600 that
00:27:42.920 their
00:27:43.420 relatives
00:27:43.900 in
00:27:44.680 Lemberg
00:27:45.740 or in
00:27:47.660 Kiev
00:27:49.940 countryside
00:27:50.480 that
00:27:50.960 they
00:27:51.400 had
00:27:51.600 problems
00:27:52.140 with
00:27:52.560 the
00:27:52.720 social
00:27:53.140 services
00:27:54.100 for
00:27:54.520 example
00:27:54.980 after
00:27:55.760 the
00:27:56.400 Maidan
00:27:57.120 push
00:27:57.740 which
00:27:58.480 after
00:27:59.220 that
00:27:59.700 happened
00:28:00.000 so I
00:28:00.800 think
00:28:01.040 there
00:28:01.260 is
00:28:01.480 already
00:28:02.080 right
00:28:02.600 now
00:28:02.920 that
00:28:03.220 situation
00:28:03.840 and
00:28:04.620 that
00:28:05.060 state
00:28:05.340 can
00:28:05.800 only
00:28:06.360 exist
00:28:07.140 by
00:28:07.960 the
00:28:08.860 support
00:28:09.300 and
00:28:09.480 support
00:28:09.840 means
00:28:10.080 always
00:28:10.380 a little
00:28:10.660 bit
00:28:10.840 by
00:28:11.020 the
00:28:11.180 control
00:28:11.580 by
00:28:11.800 the
00:28:11.980 West
00:28:12.160 but
00:28:12.340 I
00:28:12.480 think
00:28:12.720 people
00:28:13.280 like
00:28:13.560 Petro
00:28:13.880 Poroshenko
00:28:14.580 or Igor
00:28:15.100 Kolomoisky
00:28:15.800 they
00:28:16.740 are not
00:28:16.960 very much
00:28:17.380 interested
00:28:17.820 who is
00:28:18.740 now
00:28:19.020 really
00:28:19.360 having
00:28:19.640 control
00:28:20.220 as long
00:28:21.060 these
00:28:21.260 people
00:28:21.580 can
00:28:21.920 go
00:28:22.180 into
00:28:22.420 their
00:28:22.680 business
00:28:23.140 and
00:28:23.960 can
00:28:24.520 proceed
00:28:24.980 in
00:28:25.340 their
00:28:25.500 business
00:28:25.800 I
00:28:25.960 think
00:28:26.220 that's
00:28:26.600 the
00:28:26.760 important
00:28:27.140 thing
00:28:27.500 so we
00:28:28.260 have
00:28:28.540 maybe
00:28:28.940 sooner
00:28:29.480 or
00:28:29.700 later
00:28:29.920 there
00:28:30.160 a
00:28:30.320 sort
00:28:30.580 of
00:28:30.940 high
00:28:31.880 level
00:28:32.280 mafia
00:28:32.820 or
00:28:33.480 gangster
00:28:33.800 state
00:28:34.180 as we
00:28:34.560 see
00:28:34.720 it
00:28:34.840 for
00:28:34.980 example
00:28:35.400 exactly
00:28:37.160 in
00:28:37.440 Kosovo
00:28:37.900 I
00:28:38.200 think
00:28:38.420 this
00:28:38.660 is
00:28:38.900 an
00:28:39.540 analogy
00:28:40.180 which
00:28:40.580 works
00:28:41.100 out
00:28:41.460 well
00:28:42.320 I
00:28:42.700 think
00:28:43.040 the
00:28:43.240 president
00:28:43.740 who
00:28:44.320 was
00:28:44.520 formerly
00:28:45.020 known
00:28:45.280 as
00:28:45.420 the
00:28:45.580 chocolate
00:28:45.940 king
00:28:46.480 probably
00:28:47.940 is
00:28:48.340 a
00:28:48.680 kind
00:28:49.580 of
00:28:49.700 functionary
00:28:50.500 type
00:28:50.840 he
00:28:51.020 strikes
00:28:51.320 me
00:28:51.500 as
00:28:51.660 a
00:28:51.840 very
00:28:52.220 boring
00:28:53.040 yet
00:28:54.160 probably
00:28:54.720 competent
00:28:55.440 businessman
00:28:56.180 who
00:28:56.600 wants
00:28:56.840 to
00:28:57.000 just
00:28:57.200 sell
00:28:57.540 chocolate
00:28:58.140 to
00:28:58.460 everyone
00:28:58.900 so
00:29:00.320 he
00:29:01.120 might
00:29:01.460 actually
00:29:01.940 even
00:29:02.340 want
00:29:02.900 to
00:29:03.080 have
00:29:03.320 a
00:29:03.480 kind
00:29:03.700 of
00:29:03.840 detente
00:29:04.360 with
00:29:04.640 Russia
00:29:05.040 I
00:29:05.840 don't
00:29:06.240 see
00:29:06.500 him
00:29:06.680 as
00:29:06.840 ideological
00:29:07.400 I
00:29:07.840 might
00:29:08.220 certainly
00:29:08.540 be
00:29:08.780 wrong
00:29:09.260 about
00:29:09.580 that
00:29:09.820 but
00:29:10.320 at
00:29:10.580 the
00:29:10.700 same
00:29:10.860 time
00:29:11.380 if
00:29:12.200 we
00:29:12.440 have
00:29:13.380 a
00:29:13.680 standoff
00:29:15.040 that
00:29:15.680 lasts
00:29:16.200 for
00:29:16.440 months
00:29:16.820 maybe
00:29:17.080 even
00:29:17.320 years
00:29:17.780 what
00:29:19.000 we
00:29:19.200 might
00:29:19.520 see
00:29:19.880 is
00:29:20.080 a
00:29:20.200 kind
00:29:20.440 of
00:29:20.580 slow
00:29:21.240 genocide
00:29:22.580 of
00:29:23.480 ethnic
00:29:25.420 Russians
00:29:25.900 in
00:29:26.500 eastern
00:29:27.040 Ukraine
00:29:27.520 this
00:29:28.100 was
00:29:28.240 actually
00:29:28.480 called
00:29:28.860 for
00:29:29.200 by
00:29:29.460 someone
00:29:29.940 who
00:29:30.140 is
00:29:30.340 much
00:29:30.660 more
00:29:31.020 ideological
00:29:32.140 and
00:29:32.460 that
00:29:32.600 is
00:29:32.740 the
00:29:33.020 Timoshenko
00:29:34.920 woman
00:29:35.320 who
00:29:36.720 has
00:29:36.920 these
00:29:37.200 peasant
00:29:37.740 braids
00:29:38.440 and
00:29:38.640 things
00:29:38.880 like
00:29:39.060 that
00:29:39.240 although
00:29:39.440 now
00:29:39.740 when
00:29:39.920 she
00:29:40.040 came
00:29:40.220 out
00:29:40.320 of
00:29:40.440 prison
00:29:40.720 she
00:29:40.940 looks
00:29:41.140 a little
00:29:41.340 bit
00:29:41.480 like
00:29:41.640 a
00:29:41.800 witch
00:29:42.060 but
00:29:42.980 she
00:29:43.160 actually
00:29:43.560 at one
00:29:45.040 point
00:29:45.360 in a
00:29:46.100 phone
00:29:46.440 conversation
00:29:46.960 called
00:29:47.360 for the
00:29:47.680 use
00:29:47.940 of
00:29:48.100 nuclear
00:29:48.460 weapons
00:29:48.960 which
00:29:50.800 is
00:29:50.960 beyond
00:29:52.220 outrageous
00:29:52.800 but
00:29:53.740 do you
00:29:54.160 think
00:29:54.360 maybe that
00:29:55.620 might be
00:29:56.120 what happens
00:29:56.660 where Russia
00:29:57.720 because Putin
00:29:59.560 is a
00:30:00.020 realist
00:30:01.320 he's a
00:30:01.660 very
00:30:02.080 cool
00:30:03.040 and cautious
00:30:03.840 operator
00:30:04.760 that he
00:30:05.240 might
00:30:05.560 understand
00:30:06.920 that Ukraine
00:30:07.640 is a bit
00:30:08.480 of a trap
00:30:09.200 and he
00:30:09.840 might
00:30:10.020 not
00:30:10.420 want
00:30:10.660 to
00:30:10.780 go
00:30:10.980 in
00:30:11.140 he
00:30:11.240 might
00:30:11.400 not
00:30:11.660 want
00:30:11.800 to
00:30:11.880 put
00:30:12.000 boots
00:30:12.380 on
00:30:12.520 the
00:30:12.640 ground
00:30:12.940 as
00:30:13.100 they
00:30:13.220 say
00:30:13.460 and
00:30:13.940 what
00:30:14.080 we
00:30:14.240 have
00:30:14.540 is a
00:30:14.800 kind
00:30:15.080 of
00:30:15.260 long
00:30:15.960 term
00:30:16.460 Mexican
00:30:17.300 standoff
00:30:18.040 and
00:30:18.480 the
00:30:19.240 people
00:30:20.140 underneath
00:30:20.640 suffer
00:30:21.260 terribly
00:30:21.720 and
00:30:21.980 there
00:30:22.100 might
00:30:22.320 really
00:30:22.620 be
00:30:22.860 a
00:30:23.040 genocide
00:30:23.400 or
00:30:23.760 ethnic
00:30:24.260 cleansing
00:30:24.820 of
00:30:26.700 Russian
00:30:27.500 speakers
00:30:27.960 from
00:30:28.200 eastern
00:30:28.460 Ukraine
00:30:28.880 right
00:30:47.300 right
00:30:47.360 like a
00:31:02.480 business
00:31:02.880 like a
00:31:04.200 manager
00:31:04.520 who
00:31:05.060 was
00:31:05.280 installed
00:31:06.000 for
00:31:06.360 running
00:31:06.860 that
00:31:07.080 country
00:31:07.440 and
00:31:08.100 but
00:31:08.360 also
00:31:08.720 Peter
00:31:09.100 Poroshenko
00:31:09.760 and also
00:31:10.360 the
00:31:10.700 administration
00:31:11.420 in Kiev
00:31:11.920 might have
00:31:12.860 learned
00:31:13.180 one lesson
00:31:13.820 within
00:31:14.160 the last
00:31:14.600 decades
00:31:15.100 and the
00:31:15.860 lesson
00:31:16.120 is
00:31:16.400 you can
00:31:17.660 commit
00:31:18.140 genocide
00:31:18.700 if you
00:31:20.080 commit it
00:31:20.560 in a
00:31:20.800 slow
00:31:21.000 way
00:31:21.300 if you
00:31:22.240 commit a
00:31:22.680 genocide
00:31:23.020 very quick
00:31:23.800 you will
00:31:24.300 be stopped
00:31:24.780 and you
00:31:25.100 will have
00:31:25.380 a lot
00:31:25.580 of protests
00:31:26.220 but if
00:31:26.980 you do
00:31:27.260 your
00:31:27.480 genocide
00:31:27.900 slow
00:31:28.640 enough
00:31:29.060 nobody
00:31:29.880 will be
00:31:30.320 interested
00:31:30.700 it's like
00:31:31.100 the theory
00:31:31.540 of the
00:31:31.900 frog
00:31:32.120 in the
00:31:32.400 cold
00:31:32.640 water
00:31:32.960 when you
00:31:33.700 throw a
00:31:34.500 frog
00:31:34.680 into the
00:31:35.060 hot
00:31:35.220 water
00:31:35.500 he jumps
00:31:36.000 out
00:31:36.240 but if
00:31:36.760 you
00:31:36.980 put the
00:31:38.120 frog
00:31:38.300 in the
00:31:38.540 cold
00:31:38.780 water
00:31:39.120 and warm
00:31:39.680 it
00:31:39.840 slowly
00:31:40.180 up
00:31:40.480 the frog
00:31:41.280 will sit
00:31:41.680 in the
00:31:41.960 boiling
00:31:42.240 water
00:31:42.620 without
00:31:42.920 jumping
00:31:43.300 out
00:31:43.520 and I
00:31:43.760 think
00:31:46.400 genocide
00:31:46.940 and when
00:31:47.400 we look
00:31:47.700 for example
00:31:48.240 again
00:31:48.680 to Kosovo
00:31:49.960 in Kosovo
00:31:50.820 is happening
00:31:52.340 a genocide
00:31:52.920 since now
00:31:53.760 almost 15
00:31:54.500 years and
00:31:54.920 nobody is
00:31:55.420 talking about
00:31:55.980 that
00:31:56.220 the complete
00:31:57.380 extermination
00:31:58.360 of the
00:31:59.320 Serbian
00:31:59.780 presence
00:32:00.300 and when I
00:32:00.820 say the
00:32:01.120 Serbian
00:32:01.400 presence
00:32:01.720 I mean
00:32:02.000 the physical
00:32:02.520 Serbian
00:32:03.000 presence
00:32:03.380 of course
00:32:03.840 the Serbs
00:32:04.280 are not
00:32:04.580 killed there
00:32:05.120 they have
00:32:05.800 to leave
00:32:06.260 but
00:32:06.820 the extermination
00:32:08.980 in Kosovo
00:32:09.460 goes so far
00:32:10.360 that the
00:32:11.020 Albanians
00:32:11.640 or the
00:32:12.060 radical Albanians
00:32:12.900 even destroy
00:32:13.700 the Serbian
00:32:14.300 graveyards
00:32:15.040 they destroy
00:32:15.820 them
00:32:16.020 they disgraced
00:32:16.760 them
00:32:16.940 they put
00:32:17.420 animal bones
00:32:18.480 when they
00:32:18.960 were having
00:32:19.860 a festival
00:32:20.380 or so
00:32:20.900 and they
00:32:21.200 were eating
00:32:21.740 their beef
00:32:24.620 they are
00:32:24.920 putting the
00:32:25.480 bones
00:32:25.860 the remainings
00:32:26.660 of the
00:32:26.960 animals
00:32:27.320 on the
00:32:28.220 graveyards
00:32:28.720 of the
00:32:29.220 Serbs
00:32:29.500 and they
00:32:29.760 are destroying
00:32:30.300 those
00:32:30.580 graveyards
00:32:31.040 so we
00:32:31.380 see an
00:32:31.820 absolute
00:32:32.300 slowly
00:32:33.280 but an
00:32:33.700 absolute
00:32:34.140 clean
00:32:36.520 ethnical
00:32:38.040 cleaning
00:32:38.500 happening
00:32:39.180 there
00:32:39.520 and I
00:32:39.820 think this
00:32:40.160 is also
00:32:40.560 what the
00:32:41.840 people in
00:32:42.300 Kiev know
00:32:42.880 they will
00:32:44.140 get rid
00:32:44.600 of the
00:32:45.160 Russians
00:32:45.440 but it
00:32:45.800 might take
00:32:46.300 15 or
00:32:46.840 20 years
00:32:47.440 if nobody
00:32:48.040 is now
00:32:48.540 interfering
00:32:49.080 or intervening
00:32:50.040 the Russians
00:32:50.760 in eastern
00:32:51.900 Ukraine might
00:32:52.620 leave then to
00:32:53.320 Russia or
00:32:54.180 to any other
00:32:55.160 country like
00:32:56.460 we see it
00:32:57.260 also in
00:32:57.760 Serbia
00:32:58.080 they are not
00:32:58.800 just going
00:32:59.420 back to
00:32:59.820 Serbia but
00:33:00.300 a lot of
00:33:00.900 them are
00:33:01.140 living in
00:33:01.480 Germany or
00:33:02.220 even in
00:33:02.580 US or
00:33:03.180 somewhere in
00:33:03.640 Europe
00:33:03.880 migrants
00:33:04.680 so this
00:33:05.720 is also
00:33:06.120 a type
00:33:06.620 of genocide
00:33:07.480 but a
00:33:08.040 slowly
00:33:08.400 one and
00:33:08.920 it's a
00:33:09.280 very
00:33:09.560 or shall
00:33:11.200 I say
00:33:11.620 it's a
00:33:12.180 genocide
00:33:12.460 which will
00:33:12.980 work out
00:33:13.420 100%
00:33:14.240 and if it
00:33:15.420 goes on in
00:33:15.980 Kosovo like
00:33:16.660 that maybe
00:33:17.200 in 20
00:33:17.680 years you
00:33:19.080 will not
00:33:19.460 even anymore
00:33:20.120 notice that
00:33:20.820 in some
00:33:21.140 areas where
00:33:21.820 Serbian
00:33:22.180 settlements
00:33:22.640 because they
00:33:23.880 are exterminated
00:33:24.980 they disappeared
00:33:25.680 where you
00:33:26.760 had a
00:33:27.200 Serbian
00:33:27.480 graveyard
00:33:27.920 there will
00:33:28.340 be the
00:33:29.520 big parking
00:33:30.000 spot of the
00:33:30.920 new supermarket
00:33:31.580 so this is
00:33:32.600 really absolute
00:33:33.420 and it's
00:33:33.980 unconditional
00:33:34.480 and I
00:33:35.480 think maybe
00:33:36.880 the analysts
00:33:38.080 in Kiev
00:33:38.540 know that
00:33:39.180 and if
00:33:41.460 there is
00:33:41.820 right now
00:33:42.300 nothing
00:33:42.640 happening
00:33:43.140 I think
00:33:44.240 this is
00:33:45.060 and if
00:33:45.800 there is
00:33:46.120 not any
00:33:47.100 stronger
00:33:47.680 support
00:33:48.140 coming from
00:33:48.800 Russia
00:33:49.080 this is
00:33:49.460 what the
00:33:49.740 Russian
00:33:49.960 speaking
00:33:50.300 population
00:33:50.880 in eastern
00:33:51.280 Ukraine
00:33:51.740 might face
00:33:52.980 to that
00:33:53.960 type of
00:33:54.460 fate
00:33:54.720 yes well
00:33:55.980 this is
00:33:56.500 been rather
00:33:57.820 saddening
00:33:58.500 but
00:33:59.060 sometimes
00:34:00.720 reality
00:34:01.180 is rather
00:34:02.260 saddening
00:34:03.500 well Manuel
00:34:05.060 thank you
00:34:05.820 again for
00:34:06.760 being on
00:34:07.720 the program
00:34:08.260 I think
00:34:11.340 maybe I
00:34:11.840 should have
00:34:12.240 you back
00:34:12.700 and we
00:34:13.020 talk about
00:34:13.660 something
00:34:14.080 that is
00:34:14.620 actually
00:34:15.140 fun
00:34:16.860 because
00:34:17.740 this is
00:34:18.620 a very
00:34:19.360 tragic
00:34:19.820 situation
00:34:20.460 and obviously
00:34:22.100 a much
00:34:23.020 more complex
00:34:23.620 one than
00:34:24.060 is being
00:34:24.480 depicted
00:34:25.440 in the
00:34:25.920 western
00:34:26.340 media
00:34:26.760 but thank
00:34:28.240 you again
00:34:28.780 and I
00:34:29.980 hope to
00:34:30.460 have you
00:34:30.800 on
00:34:31.140 soon
00:34:32.400 and I
00:34:32.820 promise
00:34:33.100 we'll
00:34:33.340 talk about
00:34:33.920 something
00:34:34.740 a little
00:34:35.640 brighter
00:34:36.100 oh thank
00:34:37.800 god
00:34:38.100 okay thank
00:34:40.220 you so much
00:34:40.680 thank you
00:34:41.380 okay bye
00:34:42.480 bye
00:34:42.680 bye
00:34:43.320 you
00:34:44.340 Thank you.
00:35:14.340 Thank you.
00:35:44.340 Thank you.
00:36:14.340 Thank you.
00:36:44.340 Thank you.
00:37:14.340 Thank you.