RadixJournal - Heart of Darkness

00:00:00.000 Adrian, welcome back to the show. How are you?

00:00:02.560 Thank you very much, Richard. Very well, all the better for speaking to you.

00:00:05.920 Well, thank you for that.

00:00:08.320 Well, where were you during the Paris attacks?

00:00:11.680 I guess this is the kind of question we ask.

00:00:14.900 Where were you when Kennedy was shot? Where were you on 9-11?

00:00:17.840 Where were you during these shocking Paris attacks?

00:00:21.840 Actually, in the depths of rural Surrey, about 40 miles south of London,

00:00:27.820 and I found out about it very late that evening, about midnight our time,

00:00:35.080 France is an hour ahead of us.

00:00:37.220 When I got back, I'd been seeing an old Cambridge friend down there,

00:00:41.180 and he told me this extraordinary news was coming through on his,

00:00:46.740 I think he still uses the BlackBerry, about what was going on.

00:00:50.620 That's interesting.

00:00:51.720 Remarkable times, yes.

00:00:53.040 I think I might have mentioned this on an earlier program I did,

00:00:56.560 but I had a kind of, a very post-modern experience.

00:01:01.760 They actually happened while I was flying to Seattle.

00:01:06.580 Really?

00:01:07.560 Yeah, so I got off the plane, and there was kind of something in the air,

00:01:11.000 and you could see these televisions where, you know,

00:01:13.920 they were on CNN on silent.

00:01:16.200 You'd see these headlines.

00:01:17.200 And then I started looking at my, you know, phone and saw what was going on.

00:01:23.660 And then I was actually having to do some shopping for this project.

00:01:28.540 I won't go into the details because I don't want to bore anyone.

00:01:31.300 But we were actually in IKEA, and, you know, IKEA is this, you know,

00:01:37.860 wonderful place of Nordic affordable luxury, I guess, and efficiency.

00:01:45.240 But it's also a very post-modern place.

00:01:47.600 It's a big box store of consumerism.

00:01:50.820 It's people of all different, certainly all different nationalities in the Seattle one.

00:01:56.560 And you see people who are Indian, you see white people, you see Asians,

00:02:01.360 you see a couple of blacks, even a couple of African-Americans are into IKEA,

00:02:07.360 believe it or not.

00:02:08.260 But we were kind of walking through this expression of the end of history,

00:02:15.140 of, you know, cheap, affordable luxury goods with all sorts of different people buying.

00:02:21.160 But everyone was kind of whispering things.

00:02:24.320 It was kind of on everyone's mind.

00:02:26.260 I thought it was a very, maybe it was something out of a Welbeck novel or something of,

00:02:31.840 you know, you're in the seat of luxury, but then there's terror going on outside.

00:02:36.840 It's like a Welbeck novel without the sex, I guess, unfortunately.

00:02:43.180 So anyway, it was actually, I mean, it seems rather mundane when I describe it,

00:02:46.740 but it's actually quite memorable.

00:02:48.220 There was something a little surreal about it.

00:02:50.480 Yes, it sounds like an extraordinary experience.

00:02:53.260 And as the old saying goes, did diversity vibrate for you?

00:02:57.580 Well, what are your thoughts about this?

00:03:05.060 I think we should just maybe start out with the big picture.

00:03:10.000 You know, when I spoke with my friend, Romain, who lives in Paris, actually,

00:03:14.560 in the tax, actually, a couple of them happened within walking distance of his apartment.

00:03:19.100 What we were saying is that, you know, a lot of these things, these events are significant,

00:03:26.620 not so much for what happens, but how everyone understands what happens.

00:03:31.960 And with the Charlie Hebdo shootings, it became this, you know, very typical and very shallow call for,

00:03:42.420 oh, we all support free speech and all this kind of stuff.

00:03:45.100 I don't think you can do something that shallow for this event.

00:03:49.600 I think this event, it seems to have a kind of raw quality, a civilizational quality to it.

00:03:57.180 And so I think, in a way, the only interpretation of it is that we are into something here.

00:04:03.960 We are deep in a civilizational crisis and maybe a civilizational conflict.

00:04:10.000 Yes, I agree with you.

00:04:11.040 I think that the Charlie Hebdo episode was certainly different.

00:04:15.940 Charlie Hebdo was actually a disgusting magazine.

00:04:19.400 It mocked religious beliefs that are very sincerely held.

00:04:24.920 It mocked Christian beliefs more than Muslim beliefs, actually, although it mocked Islam as well.

00:04:29.760 There was, of course, one religion that it didn't mock.

00:04:31.940 And if you mocked that religion, you were dismissed from the staff of Charlie Hebdo.

00:04:35.480 So some animals are more equal than others.

00:04:37.620 The Mormons continue to have a great deal of hedging.

00:04:41.020 Absolutely.

00:04:41.780 They and the Eskimos have a very, very special civilizational place.

00:04:45.960 They're above any form of criticism, sarcasm or mockery.

00:04:50.740 But two of the three great monotheistic religions are, of course, exposed to ridicule, satire and the insulting of their most cherished beliefs.

00:05:02.020 And that is supposed to be one of our freedoms.

00:05:03.920 Of course, do that in the third and you will be socially ostracized and utterly ruined.

00:05:11.100 But no, Charlie Hebdo was a repulsive, is a repulsive publication.

00:05:15.020 And its publishers had set about provoking the response that they endured.

00:05:24.040 That, I think, was perceived by the French and, indeed, by other people, but particularly by the French.

00:05:31.080 So it wasn't, in a sense, directly threatening.

00:05:34.940 It was the conclusion you draw from Charlie Hebdo is if you publish a magazine that sets out to provoke and insult Muslims, surprise, surprise, they might react.

00:05:44.940 Well, well, well.

00:05:45.700 Well, that, of course, is not a source of concern to ordinary people who don't set about insulting others' religious beliefs.

00:05:54.940 This was a random attack, killing hundreds as a deliberate campaign of terror.

00:06:06.200 And it did affect ordinary people.

00:06:08.220 That was the point.

00:06:09.360 It wasn't targeted against a vitriolic and unpleasant magazine.

00:06:14.700 It wasn't targeted against a political or other particular ethno-religious group, whatever.

00:06:22.620 It was targeted against anyone who happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

00:06:27.840 And it has undoubtedly had an effect, a very serious effect.

00:06:33.380 All this nonsense about people standing firm for our shared values is so much old tripe.

00:06:39.440 In fact, it has terrified people, and it will change behavior patterns very, very significantly.

00:06:46.080 How do you think that will happen?

00:06:50.180 A lot like, I mean, we went through this with 9-11.

00:06:53.000 I think people have, in a way, kind of forgotten about a lot of those things.

00:06:56.520 People get on planes.

00:06:57.940 Everyone gets on the subway.

00:06:59.200 People go to the football matches and so on.

00:07:01.980 Do you think that this attack, and also just this sense that it's going to happen again?

00:07:07.480 I mean, this was a highly organized affair, that it just seems like this is going to be the new normal,

00:07:15.060 is that this happens every quarter or something.

00:07:17.520 Well, much may turn on that.

00:07:19.600 9-11 was an extraordinary event, but it has not been repeated.

00:07:29.220 Nothing of the kind has happened in North America since.

00:07:32.440 Now, how much impact the Paris atrocities will have may very well depend upon whether similar atrocities happen

00:07:43.760 either in France or in other European countries, again, in the reasonably near future.

00:07:50.520 As you say, shocking though 9-11 was, in the end, people got over it, if I can put it that way.

00:07:57.960 I mean, I visited New York earlier this year, and people, I think, were more concerned about a repeat

00:08:04.560 of the Ferguson-type Black Lives Matter riots in which people run amok and decide to trash any business

00:08:12.700 that happens to have anything worth stealing because somewhere a white cop has shot a black suspect.

00:08:21.280 That was much more of a concern to New Yorkers at the time, so far as I could see,

00:08:25.240 than a repetition of the 9-11 bombings which have faded to some extent into history.

00:08:31.100 These events will also fade into history if they're not repeated,

00:08:35.020 but the likelihood is that something similar will happen in another European country before too long.

00:08:40.260 I agree.

00:08:41.920 Have you noticed in, and I guess you could speak for England and Britain,

00:08:47.480 and then you could speak for Europe,

00:08:49.160 have you noticed a kind of turn in political consciousness?

00:08:53.880 I mean, there is certainly a lot of talk that the Front National is going to do quite well

00:08:58.400 in upcoming elections.

00:09:00.760 I believe they're regional elections, if that's correct.

00:09:02.900 Yeah, they're regional elections in France.

00:09:04.660 Well, the situation in France is a perfect storm from the Front National's point of view.

00:09:12.380 The president is a simpering Feebleton who looked utterly, completely shocked,

00:09:21.860 well, in one sense, understandably so,

00:09:24.020 but as if he had been bowled over, had no idea how to react to the events of last Friday.

00:09:33.160 He really is a dreadful political leader.

00:09:36.140 He makes Obama seem like Ulysses Grant.

00:09:41.460 He really does.

00:09:42.880 He is such a terrible president.

00:09:47.900 Marine Le Pen, on the other hand, came over very, very well indeed.

00:09:51.840 She made an extremely dignified statement,

00:09:54.380 which obviously was very sincere and came to the heart,

00:09:56.380 about how she shared the pain of those who'd lost loved ones in the massacre,

00:10:01.100 how she wept with France for her dead.

00:10:04.100 And she came over far, far better than the president.

00:10:07.740 There's no doubt that she looks like a president in waiting,

00:10:10.760 and Hollande looks like a jerk.

00:10:12.860 That, frankly, is a pathetic individual.

00:10:16.440 He's obviously unfit for the office that he holds.

00:10:20.400 The sinister person in France is his prime minister, Valls,

00:10:24.940 who is someone who would like to create a total surveillance state

00:10:30.380 inspired by left-wing ideology where dissent is equated to treason

00:10:37.520 and essentially all the things that the system wouldn't probably do

00:10:42.640 in its last throes and death agonies before finally expiring.

00:10:47.860 The point is, however, that it's probably all too late for such things, frankly, now.

00:10:53.620 The Socialist Party, in France, has no answers to the problems created

00:11:00.320 by decades and decades of policies of denial about what has been going on

00:11:08.340 in terms of demographic transformation of the country.

00:11:13.340 It is part of the problem.

00:11:15.260 It is not part of the solution.

00:11:16.880 It has nothing relevant to say,

00:11:18.600 and it is becoming increasingly apparent to millions and millions of French people

00:11:22.240 that the Socialist Party has nothing to contribute to the debate.

00:11:27.700 Do you see a kind of maybe a realignment,

00:11:31.040 a kind of collapse of that left?

00:11:34.020 Because sometimes these ideologies have a kind of staying power

00:11:37.960 where they can kind of mold and change.

00:11:41.720 I mean, certainly the left has gone through a number of different mutations

00:11:45.240 over the decade.

00:11:46.940 Or do you think this is a big shift?

00:11:49.140 Like, we're going to see the Front National is going to come out

00:11:51.300 of being this, you know, weird, beyond-the-pale third party or something,

00:11:57.220 and it's going to be something that's a legitimate party for middle-class people.

00:12:02.940 It came out beyond the pale a long time ago.

00:12:06.100 It's now probably the largest single party in France,

00:12:10.720 although that is partly due to the divisions in the ranks

00:12:13.700 of the establishment of conservative parties.

00:12:15.460 But what is particularly interesting in France

00:12:18.080 is that the Front National is now ripping into the white working-class vote.

00:12:23.060 It's been doing that for a long time.

00:12:26.000 And it's particularly, in the last 10 years,

00:12:30.240 it's been more and more successful in doing that

00:12:32.180 because it has added to its discourse against immigration

00:12:35.580 a relatively statist, welfarist discourse

00:12:39.440 which is deeply appealing to ordinary French people.

00:12:42.280 This will, of course, shock many rightists, libertarians,

00:12:46.680 Randians, and so on, in the United States.

00:12:50.140 And there is a genuine difference, I think,

00:12:52.880 of outlook between Americans and Europeans on this.

00:12:56.360 It's a legitimate difference.

00:12:58.440 Different peoples have different perspectives.

00:13:02.340 But undoubtedly, to the white working-class in France,

00:13:06.320 the Front National is increasingly the party of

00:13:08.560 not only national salvation but, frankly, of class salvation.

00:13:12.580 They perceive it as representing their interests.

00:13:15.580 They perceive the Socialist Party as representing the interests

00:13:18.920 of metropolitan elites that are alienated from the people

00:13:22.600 and of non-European immigrant groups

00:13:26.740 with whom they have absolutely nothing in common.

00:13:32.800 So, yes, things are changing.

00:13:39.600 They are changing very, very fast.

00:13:42.480 We can't know where this is going to end.

00:13:46.000 But it will not end well, I think, for the Socialist Party,

00:13:51.060 which is losing its grip upon the working-class vote.

00:13:55.140 By the million.

00:13:56.780 By the million.

00:13:58.580 That's very interesting.

00:13:59.880 Do you think these similar things are happening really across Europe?

00:14:05.500 I mean, maybe Germany is always kind of an exception due to its history,

00:14:10.180 where it seems like it's almost impossible for a real right

00:14:16.480 outside of the, you know, kind of Christian Democrats to arise there.

00:14:22.140 But elsewhere, you see a lot of these things.

00:14:24.520 The Swedish Democrats, from what I can tell,

00:14:27.620 are actually becoming a very powerful group and elsewhere.

00:14:32.080 At the same time, I've heard this before in my recent memory of,

00:14:36.780 this is it, the right's going to rise up, and so on and so forth.

00:14:40.500 But do you think it's real this time?

00:14:42.860 I think that the answer is it varies from country to country.

00:14:47.920 In France, the process is a very advanced stage.

00:14:52.340 The Front National is probably the most professional,

00:14:57.480 the most successful, the most credible nationalist party in Europe.

00:15:02.200 And really, it has much to teach others.

00:15:05.160 Likewise, in Austria, the Freedom Party has made enormous progress

00:15:09.300 and is, again, polling well over 30% of the vote across the country.

00:15:15.100 The Swedish Democrats, as you rightly say,

00:15:17.220 they have truly emerged from nowhere.

00:15:18.880 Ten years ago, they were a marginal party with minimal support.

00:15:23.540 They're now serious players in the political game.

00:15:26.740 As far as Germany is concerned, I agree there are particular problems.

00:15:30.480 There is a historical, obviously, background,

00:15:36.400 which is, to say the least, not conducive to the emergence of a right-wing populist party

00:15:46.200 because of things that happened in German history in the past.

00:15:50.840 What is interesting in Germany is the emergence of the Alternative für Deutschland,

00:15:56.100 which I regard as a much, much more serious and credible candidate

00:16:02.200 for the role of oppositional populist and rightist party

00:16:06.460 than the much longer established National Democrats

00:16:10.480 who are a marginalised and fringy neo-Nazi-type group

00:16:14.540 thoroughly penetrated by the security service

00:16:16.860 and consisting largely of its agent provocateur,

00:16:20.300 who I would tend personally to discount altogether as a political force.

00:16:25.780 They have no real credibility amongst the German people

00:16:28.920 and count for nothing.

00:16:32.720 The AFD is a much more serious party.

00:16:37.160 Also interesting there is the increasing disenchantment

00:16:41.180 of the Bavarian CSU with Angela Merkel's CDU party,

00:16:46.060 their long-term coalition allies.

00:16:48.400 They have truly had enough of Angela,

00:16:51.580 who is a seriously, in my view, mentally ill woman.

00:16:59.980 She is infected with intellectual syphilis and spiritual aids

00:17:08.020 in the form of liberalism in a very advanced degree

00:17:10.700 and demonstrates in her person all the things

00:17:13.840 that are sickest and most unhealthy in the modern European psyche.

00:17:18.820 She really needs an appointment with Comrade O'Brien

00:17:23.780 and the rat helmet in the cellars of the Ministry of Love

00:17:26.700 very, very soon in an attempt to cure her.

00:17:29.260 I honestly cannot think that there is any other way

00:17:31.780 in which she could be cured.

00:17:33.120 That might work, but we'd really have to try that, I think.

00:17:37.080 She's a very, very sick individual.

00:17:40.720 She is totally given over to ethnomasochism,

00:17:47.000 to self-hate, to a desire to destroy her own country and people

00:17:54.500 so far as I can see.

00:17:56.100 I mean, she is truly mentally ill and pathological.

00:17:58.700 She's actually a very good photographic negative

00:18:04.180 of the ultra-nationalist.

00:18:06.900 She has many of the same characteristics

00:18:10.240 of the very people who she hates.

00:18:15.060 If you like, swivel around 180 degrees

00:18:17.300 or put through a photographic negative

00:18:19.400 so that for her, it would seem

00:18:23.700 the idea of virtue consists of

00:18:28.740 loving every people but your own,

00:18:31.680 welcoming the stranger, the alien,

00:18:35.220 the person who has nothing to do with you.

00:18:39.820 Effectively, countenancing the displacement

00:18:42.380 of your own people,

00:18:45.140 their replacement in their own country

00:18:47.560 by aliens who have nothing to do with Germany,

00:18:52.120 culturally, historically, ethnically,

00:18:54.840 linguistically, religiously, or in any other way.

00:18:57.220 She is essentially pathological.

00:19:00.760 She is as pathological as the most rabid Nazi.

00:19:06.520 She truly is.

00:19:08.000 Just as, for example, for the craziest National Socialists,

00:19:12.500 other European peoples, Russians, Poles, Czechs,

00:19:15.820 or whatever, were subhumans,

00:19:18.520 even though they were to the naked eye,

00:19:21.200 utterly indistinguishable from the Germans,

00:19:23.560 and appeared to have reached a high cultural level

00:19:25.580 and be a civilized European peoples.

00:19:27.820 And just as I say,

00:19:28.640 it's the most insane of the National Socialists.

00:19:32.360 Every other European nation

00:19:34.560 would be treated virtually as untermension

00:19:36.460 and beasts and whatever.

00:19:38.820 So to her, every other people

00:19:40.660 is more virtuous than her own

00:19:42.580 and to be preferred to her own in every way

00:19:44.960 to be invited to come to Germany

00:19:48.340 and in effect replace her own people.

00:19:50.360 It's a similar kind of extremism.

00:19:53.760 Funnily enough, in this respect,

00:19:55.580 it's not funny and it's not amusing,

00:19:59.920 but it's ironic, I suppose.

00:20:03.040 It could be said that as we all become

00:20:07.080 like the thing we hate,

00:20:08.380 so in a sense has she,

00:20:10.300 she has become a mirror image

00:20:12.760 of the thing she most hates.

00:20:15.360 Yeah, I think what you're saying

00:20:16.260 is actually quite insightful.

00:20:17.700 It's interesting.

00:20:18.560 I'll put a link to this.

00:20:20.300 I did an interview with Manuel Oxenreiter

00:20:22.960 and he actually gave a...

00:20:24.460 He's a very interesting man.

00:20:26.400 Yeah, very interesting man.

00:20:27.740 He actually gave a different portrait.

00:20:30.200 He almost portrayed Merkel

00:20:31.540 as this hollow mensch

00:20:34.460 who has no ideology

00:20:36.940 and kind of tries to absorb all ideologies.

00:20:39.680 But I think I might actually agree

00:20:42.460 with your view of her

00:20:43.640 that she's almost this photographic negative

00:20:45.800 of a nationalist.

00:20:47.020 It's interesting.

00:20:47.540 I remember when I was discussing

00:20:49.120 some of these things in graduate school

00:20:51.020 and we were talking about things

00:20:52.860 like the Sonderweig thesis,

00:20:54.860 which is this...

00:20:56.020 It was actually originally a liberal idea.

00:20:58.400 It was that Germany had a peculiar path

00:21:01.100 into modernity

00:21:01.880 and kind of married some things

00:21:04.080 that were seemingly incompatible

00:21:06.760 like industrialization and the bourgeoisie

00:21:09.600 and also a kind of sense of home

00:21:12.940 and nature and tradition and so on.

00:21:16.620 And that morphed into something very different.

00:21:19.740 It morphed into a kind of Nazi concept

00:21:21.540 of German supremacy

00:21:24.240 from Luther to Hitler.

00:21:26.600 Everything was leading to Hitler.

00:21:28.660 And in this funny way,

00:21:30.220 the generation that came after Hitler

00:21:32.440 never overcame that

00:21:34.760 or never really changed their mind.

00:21:36.820 They just changed how they thought about it.

00:21:38.680 So they almost do believe,

00:21:41.020 they agree with Hitler

00:21:42.120 that Martin Luther was just a preface

00:21:45.660 to National Socialism,

00:21:47.200 that all of German history

00:21:48.420 is leading in one direction

00:21:50.340 and that is towards evil.

00:21:52.500 It's a funny thing

00:21:53.960 because it's very funny.

00:21:55.380 It's kind of like it's this,

00:21:56.980 you're becoming your father,

00:21:58.780 even though you're trying to rebel against him.

00:22:01.380 It is quite extraordinary

00:22:03.200 that some 70 years

00:22:06.780 after the end of the Second World War,

00:22:08.420 there are people,

00:22:10.080 and Merkel is one who was born

00:22:12.400 some years after that war had ended,

00:22:15.400 who are still incapable

00:22:18.160 of moving on

00:22:20.480 from the ideological struggles

00:22:22.100 of that period.

00:22:24.060 I'm going to admire

00:22:24.860 a German National Socialism.

00:22:26.420 It led to horrific war,

00:22:32.160 the deaths of millions and millions of people,

00:22:34.360 and from the point of view,

00:22:35.700 the Germans themselves,

00:22:36.500 the frustration of their country's

00:22:38.140 occupation and division by foreigners,

00:22:40.580 their national humiliation.

00:22:43.840 It was an absolute catastrophe.

00:22:46.180 and I therefore can say

00:22:53.280 that I have no particular regard

00:22:59.280 for that regime,

00:23:00.400 rather than the contrary.

00:23:01.340 As I said,

00:23:01.680 I think it was ultimately a disaster

00:23:03.040 for the country that it led.

00:23:04.360 But nevertheless,

00:23:07.360 it represents 12 years

00:23:09.540 out of German history,

00:23:11.720 which goes back,

00:23:13.440 well,

00:23:13.960 thousands of years.

00:23:15.060 Now,

00:23:16.080 you can't possibly

00:23:18.820 judge a nation

00:23:20.640 by that period.

00:23:22.400 Right.

00:23:23.020 Nor indeed

00:23:24.300 can you understand

00:23:26.320 the National Socialist Regime

00:23:28.160 and the things it did

00:23:29.680 wrong,

00:23:31.300 though they were,

00:23:32.660 without putting them

00:23:33.680 into the context

00:23:34.680 of the Versailles Peace Settlement

00:23:36.340 and all the injuries

00:23:37.660 inflicted upon the Germans

00:23:38.880 by the victors in 1918.

00:23:41.280 So,

00:23:42.160 this kind of ethnomasochistic discourse

00:23:44.920 to which Merkel

00:23:45.840 subscribes

00:23:47.640 is just completely crazy.

00:23:50.020 But none of this would matter

00:23:51.900 were it not the fact

00:23:52.760 that this,

00:23:53.780 to my mind,

00:23:54.780 mentally and morally

00:23:55.900 disordered woman

00:23:56.980 is perhaps the most powerful

00:23:58.520 person in Europe.

00:24:00.160 She has this year

00:24:01.940 invited a million

00:24:04.200 so-called refugees

00:24:06.680 from Syria

00:24:08.680 into her country.

00:24:11.800 I think it's much more than that.

00:24:13.460 It may well be more.

00:24:14.300 The original figure

00:24:15.320 was 800,000.

00:24:16.420 I think they're talking

00:24:17.120 about a million six,

00:24:18.860 two million.

00:24:20.000 No one knows.

00:24:21.100 One of the things

00:24:23.380 that's coming out

00:24:24.420 even today

00:24:25.480 in the British press

00:24:26.720 is that the perpetrator

00:24:31.040 or the ringleader

00:24:31.680 of the Paris atrocities

00:24:32.660 had travelled backwards

00:24:33.460 and forwards

00:24:33.940 between France and Syria

00:24:35.000 several times

00:24:36.080 without being detected

00:24:37.480 by any of the security services,

00:24:39.340 even though he was

00:24:39.920 one of the most wanted

00:24:40.680 Islamists in Europe.

00:24:42.300 Now,

00:24:42.800 if that man

00:24:44.820 could do that,

00:24:46.560 it makes you wonder

00:24:49.500 how many people

00:24:50.260 are crossing borders.

00:24:51.560 No one really knows.

00:24:54.180 Well,

00:24:54.700 I think actually

00:24:55.420 there's even something worse

00:24:58.060 and that is that

00:24:58.860 I believe it was

00:25:00.000 between one and two

00:25:01.540 of the Paris attackers

00:25:03.700 had some involvement

00:25:06.760 in the refugee crisis.

00:25:08.780 And in a way,

00:25:09.500 this is a...

00:25:10.500 I think in a way

00:25:11.340 the refugee crisis,

00:25:12.580 as terrible as it is,

00:25:14.180 I think in a way

00:25:15.120 it's a kind of convenient way

00:25:17.580 that we can not think

00:25:18.780 about the real problem

00:25:19.740 because we can say,

00:25:20.480 oh,

00:25:21.120 you know,

00:25:21.460 in America

00:25:22.140 all these governors

00:25:23.040 are saying

00:25:23.460 we don't want the Syrians

00:25:24.620 or we only want

00:25:25.800 the Syrian Christians.

00:25:26.760 They're doing all this

00:25:27.680 kind of stuff.

00:25:28.680 The fact is

00:25:29.560 most of these attackers

00:25:30.960 were French citizens.

00:25:33.240 So,

00:25:33.880 I think in some ways

00:25:35.200 people are avoiding

00:25:36.180 the much deeper

00:25:37.780 and more impactful

00:25:39.840 and profound question

00:25:41.400 which is,

00:25:42.500 and I did a quick blog

00:25:43.860 in this,

00:25:44.540 I think much more

00:25:45.680 needs to be written on it,

00:25:46.660 but it's what is the meaning

00:25:47.960 of citizenship

00:25:48.700 at this point?

00:25:49.940 I mean,

00:25:50.160 that notion of the citizen

00:25:52.120 was deified

00:25:54.160 during the French Revolution

00:25:55.840 and it was,

00:25:56.880 it was,

00:25:57.940 it was a kind of idea

00:25:58.960 whose time had come.

00:26:00.120 It was a new concept.

00:26:02.800 There's a lot about that

00:26:04.820 that's admirable,

00:26:06.680 but I think in a way

00:26:08.360 we're seeing the passing

00:26:09.920 of,

00:26:10.580 we're at the end

00:26:11.680 of that era.

00:26:12.240 We're at the end

00:26:13.120 of this post-revolutionary

00:26:14.720 liberal era

00:26:15.480 where I think

00:26:16.380 that notion

00:26:16.980 of the citizen

00:26:17.900 is breaking down.

00:26:19.380 I mean,

00:26:19.600 what does it even mean

00:26:21.620 to be French

00:26:22.540 if,

00:26:23.840 you know,

00:26:24.560 if these people

00:26:26.180 who are engaged

00:26:27.100 in these terror attacks

00:26:28.140 are French?

00:26:28.720 I mean,

00:26:28.980 what does it mean

00:26:29.740 to be American

00:26:30.460 at this point?

00:26:32.120 You know,

00:26:32.340 I mean,

00:26:32.520 people might have some,

00:26:33.780 when you say America,

00:26:35.020 they might have some

00:26:35.700 motion in their head

00:26:37.140 of picket fence

00:26:38.400 and some white family

00:26:41.640 smiling into a camera

00:26:43.180 with a hot dog

00:26:44.440 and a barbecue

00:26:45.020 or something.

00:26:45.920 But that kind of thing

00:26:47.040 is breaking down.

00:26:47.980 I mean,

00:26:48.260 what does it mean

00:26:49.580 to be American?

00:26:50.360 I don't even know.

00:26:52.160 And so I think

00:26:52.920 this whole notion

00:26:53.720 of a citizen

00:26:54.900 has actually been

00:26:55.800 brought into question

00:26:56.920 by all this.

00:26:58.280 Well,

00:26:58.620 this is one

00:27:00.080 of the great issues

00:27:01.040 for the future.

00:27:04.320 In European countries

00:27:05.740 at present,

00:27:06.920 we have an idea

00:27:08.080 of nationality

00:27:09.180 in most countries

00:27:10.300 at any rate.

00:27:11.180 It's based upon

00:27:12.040 a legal fiction.

00:27:13.700 What is actually

00:27:14.400 very interesting

00:27:15.580 is that many

00:27:16.180 of the perpetrators

00:27:17.060 of the Paris attacks

00:27:18.200 were not French citizens.

00:27:20.660 They were Belgian citizens.

00:27:23.520 Now,

00:27:23.640 this is particularly

00:27:24.940 extraordinary

00:27:25.860 as they are

00:27:27.160 of North African descent.

00:27:30.100 And Belgium

00:27:30.860 was never the colonial power

00:27:32.480 in North Africa.

00:27:33.460 France was.

00:27:34.220 The Belgians

00:27:34.660 had their colony

00:27:35.680 in hell holes

00:27:36.740 such as the Congo

00:27:38.000 and other such places.

00:27:42.300 What is now Zaire,

00:27:45.200 Rwanda, Burundi.

00:27:47.760 They had their

00:27:48.960 African empire,

00:27:50.440 which incidentally

00:27:51.220 they ruled

00:27:51.600 with considerable brutality

00:27:53.060 and very,

00:27:53.700 very great severity.

00:27:56.460 I always liked

00:27:58.020 Conrad's book

00:27:58.880 The Heart of Darkness,

00:28:01.140 in which the company

00:28:02.820 that's running

00:28:03.260 the rubber plantations

00:28:04.340 with slave labor

00:28:05.120 where you get

00:28:05.480 your limb lopped off

00:28:06.380 if you don't work

00:28:07.200 hard enough.

00:28:07.740 It's La Societe

00:28:08.500 Générale de Belgique,

00:28:09.940 which owns about

00:28:10.880 a third of the Belgian

00:28:11.720 economy and whose principal

00:28:13.000 shareholder was the

00:28:13.760 Belgian royal family.

00:28:15.540 That's how I run things

00:28:17.320 in my operations,

00:28:18.760 but some people

00:28:19.580 find that severe.

00:28:20.440 Leopold King of the Belgians

00:28:23.820 was anxious to encourage

00:28:25.600 high levels of production

00:28:27.400 on his rubber plantations

00:28:29.120 and, well,

00:28:30.480 sometimes,

00:28:31.620 as Catbert,

00:28:32.500 evil director of human

00:28:33.580 resources in the Dilbert

00:28:34.760 cartoons will tell you,

00:28:35.880 it is necessary to brand

00:28:36.900 the employees with

00:28:37.760 hot irons in order

00:28:38.640 to encourage them

00:28:39.440 to high levels

00:28:39.980 of productivity,

00:28:40.600 but they were never,

00:28:42.800 although they ran

00:28:43.420 the African empire

00:28:44.440 with methods

00:28:46.020 that were certainly

00:28:47.060 not those used

00:28:47.860 in my old Kentucky home,

00:28:50.760 they had nothing

00:28:52.500 to do with the

00:28:53.960 North African colonies

00:28:55.580 that were entirely French

00:28:56.880 from which most

00:28:57.680 of the current terrorists

00:28:59.600 and perpetrators

00:29:00.440 of mass murder

00:29:01.220 in Europe

00:29:01.600 appear to be drawn.

00:29:02.420 And one asks oneself,

00:29:05.380 how did these persons

00:29:06.400 ever acquire

00:29:07.120 Belgian nationality?

00:29:09.520 Presumably they just

00:29:10.200 nipped across the border

00:29:11.560 and settled in one

00:29:12.560 of the immigrant ghettos

00:29:13.760 in various Belgian cities

00:29:15.480 where you won't be able

00:29:16.800 to find a Belgian

00:29:17.500 terribly easily

00:29:18.500 because they're now

00:29:20.960 entirely North African

00:29:23.340 immigrant ghettos.

00:29:25.960 But it shows

00:29:28.120 that legal nationality

00:29:29.980 has become completely

00:29:31.400 divorced from

00:29:32.620 the reality

00:29:33.620 of nationality

00:29:34.380 in Europe.

00:29:34.880 It brings me to

00:29:35.780 a very interesting

00:29:37.160 question.

00:29:37.960 One of the issues

00:29:40.480 is going to have

00:29:40.920 to be considered

00:29:42.160 in the long term.

00:29:44.140 And it's at present

00:29:44.940 quite unthinkable

00:29:46.060 to say this in Europe.

00:29:47.640 I suspect that even

00:29:48.400 the most,

00:29:50.700 what can I say,

00:29:52.680 the most serious

00:29:54.400 nationalist parties

00:29:55.080 in Europe

00:29:55.380 would be reluctant

00:29:56.960 to broach this subject

00:29:58.680 publicly,

00:30:00.240 though many of them

00:30:00.940 are no doubt

00:30:01.400 thinking it privately,

00:30:02.720 but since we're

00:30:04.180 talking about ideas,

00:30:05.480 let's talk about ideas.

00:30:07.920 One of the things

00:30:08.780 that we're going

00:30:09.540 to have to consider

00:30:10.280 is redefining

00:30:11.380 the whole concept

00:30:13.160 of nationality

00:30:14.420 along lines

00:30:17.340 that bear some

00:30:18.480 relationship

00:30:19.560 to reality

00:30:21.440 instead of fantasy.

00:30:23.100 the British Empire

00:30:26.840 once covered

00:30:28.400 about a quarter

00:30:29.040 of the globe.

00:30:30.540 The French Empire,

00:30:31.640 though smaller,

00:30:32.180 wasn't actually

00:30:32.640 that much smaller

00:30:33.500 in a geographical

00:30:34.080 extent.

00:30:34.520 It was also

00:30:34.860 a huge empire.

00:30:36.320 Small European states,

00:30:37.560 Belgium and Holland,

00:30:39.280 had quite substantial

00:30:40.640 empires of their own.

00:30:42.120 Every European country

00:30:43.420 pretty well

00:30:43.980 had an empire

00:30:45.200 with the possible

00:30:45.760 exception of

00:30:46.440 Scandinavian countries.

00:30:48.000 the reality

00:30:52.100 is that we have

00:30:53.760 shared our nationality

00:30:55.060 with people

00:30:55.520 who have,

00:30:56.480 in truth,

00:30:57.220 nothing really

00:30:58.260 in common with us

00:30:59.260 beyond the fact

00:30:59.920 that once upon a time,

00:31:00.980 long ago,

00:31:01.600 we were their

00:31:02.080 colonial overlords.

00:31:03.860 That time has long

00:31:05.100 since passed.

00:31:06.060 Before I was born,

00:31:07.340 and I have turned 50,

00:31:08.780 I regret to say,

00:31:09.940 in the case of

00:31:10.540 most British colonies,

00:31:13.080 we had substantially

00:31:14.640 decolonialized

00:31:16.720 by the mid-1960s

00:31:18.560 the French

00:31:19.360 by about the same period.

00:31:21.600 There is no reason

00:31:22.940 why we should share

00:31:23.900 our nationality

00:31:24.700 with a quarter

00:31:25.220 of the globe,

00:31:25.900 and one of the things

00:31:26.620 that needs to be looked at

00:31:27.640 is people who have

00:31:28.560 acquired British

00:31:29.600 or French

00:31:30.300 or Belgian

00:31:30.980 or other European

00:31:31.900 nationalities

00:31:32.620 by legal fiction,

00:31:34.260 but who have no real

00:31:35.580 connection with those

00:31:36.580 countries beyond

00:31:37.520 the historical accident

00:31:38.760 that once upon a time

00:31:39.780 they were their

00:31:40.280 colonial masters.

00:31:42.180 People who essentially

00:31:44.300 hate those countries,

00:31:45.640 although they live in them

00:31:46.540 and are happy enough

00:31:47.200 to draw welfare

00:31:48.160 and other benefits

00:31:49.180 from them,

00:31:50.820 will need in the end

00:31:52.680 to be stripped

00:31:53.320 of their legal nationality,

00:31:55.180 frankly,

00:31:55.560 not to make too fine

00:31:56.300 a point of it.

00:31:57.820 You cannot have,

00:31:59.640 living in your society,

00:32:01.000 millions of people

00:32:02.080 who are different

00:32:03.420 from you

00:32:04.240 in every way.

00:32:05.720 They're different

00:32:06.260 in ethnicity,

00:32:08.500 they're different

00:32:09.220 in religion,

00:32:10.980 they're different

00:32:11.480 in culture,

00:32:12.340 they're increasingly

00:32:12.980 different in language.

00:32:15.500 There are more

00:32:16.120 and more places now

00:32:17.560 where the language

00:32:18.980 of the country

00:32:19.960 is no longer really

00:32:21.440 the language

00:32:22.540 of the people

00:32:23.120 who live in a particular area.

00:32:25.060 They'll transact

00:32:25.780 all their business

00:32:26.820 in Arabic

00:32:27.700 or in an African language

00:32:30.900 or in some Asian language.

00:32:35.040 In America,

00:32:35.780 I know you have

00:32:36.440 this phenomenon

00:32:37.100 with Mexicans,

00:32:38.380 for example,

00:32:39.360 where you have

00:32:39.760 effectively monolingual

00:32:41.540 communities

00:32:44.280 where that single language

00:32:45.500 is Spanish

00:32:46.240 or what passes

00:32:48.520 for Spanish in Mexico,

00:32:49.700 which is not something

00:32:50.780 that most Spaniards

00:32:51.600 would consider

00:32:52.060 to be Spanish,

00:32:52.920 but leave that aside.

00:32:56.500 It's a phenomenon

00:32:58.120 really of reverse colonialism.

00:32:59.480 Now,

00:33:01.600 what will have

00:33:03.120 to be considered

00:33:03.900 and it's presently

00:33:05.380 unthinkable

00:33:06.020 and it will have

00:33:06.420 to be considered

00:33:06.800 in the future

00:33:07.460 is completely redefining

00:33:09.380 our law of nationality

00:33:10.760 and saying

00:33:12.620 that only those

00:33:13.520 who are members

00:33:14.140 of our community,

00:33:16.020 that's those

00:33:16.920 who share

00:33:17.300 common descent,

00:33:18.820 a common heritage

00:33:19.720 and history,

00:33:21.440 can be citizens

00:33:23.580 of the state.

00:33:24.520 We are a long way

00:33:25.440 from reaching

00:33:26.740 a situation

00:33:28.360 where that reform,

00:33:29.560 which I consider

00:33:30.260 to be in the end

00:33:31.000 absolutely necessary,

00:33:32.480 the redefinition

00:33:33.640 of nationality

00:33:34.720 along the lines

00:33:36.620 that bear some

00:33:37.380 relationship

00:33:38.320 to reality,

00:33:39.200 happens.

00:33:39.820 But one of the

00:33:41.200 consequences

00:33:41.700 of the unhappy events

00:33:42.920 of a week ago

00:33:44.360 is that several

00:33:45.960 million,

00:33:47.060 tens of millions,

00:33:48.100 maybe hundreds of millions

00:33:48.960 of Europeans

00:33:49.460 have come a little bit

00:33:50.220 closer to thinking that.

00:33:53.160 I think that thought,

00:33:54.960 which is, again,

00:33:56.060 totally outrageous

00:33:57.120 from the perspective

00:33:58.380 of mainstream

00:33:59.640 conservatives

00:34:00.380 and liberals,

00:34:01.800 I think that thought

00:34:02.920 is going to have

00:34:04.920 to become mainstream

00:34:05.900 within our lifetimes.

00:34:08.220 And it is an idea

00:34:10.140 whose time will come.

00:34:12.700 And I think it's actually,

00:34:14.260 it might even be bigger,

00:34:15.920 it might be more revolutionary

00:34:17.660 than the way

00:34:18.480 you're depicting it.

00:34:19.440 Because I think

00:34:21.340 the nation state

00:34:22.380 as it is,

00:34:24.620 is in a way

00:34:25.420 too big

00:34:26.540 and too small.

00:34:29.340 It's encompassing

00:34:31.440 all of these

00:34:32.720 different people

00:34:33.380 where, you know,

00:34:33.960 what does it mean

00:34:35.000 to be an American?

00:34:35.900 You know,

00:34:36.060 basically nothing.

00:34:37.080 It's,

00:34:37.640 you passed a civics exam

00:34:39.340 or you've filled out

00:34:40.940 a form,

00:34:41.600 effectively.

00:34:42.960 But at the same time,

00:34:45.100 in a way,

00:34:46.200 what does it mean

00:34:47.140 to be a Czech?

00:34:48.620 Or what does it mean

00:34:49.200 to be French?

00:34:50.940 And those things

00:34:52.000 are in a way

00:34:52.400 too small.

00:34:53.500 They don't

00:34:55.020 encapsulate

00:34:56.240 this civilizational question.

00:34:58.320 I think we're going

00:34:59.240 to have to rethink

00:35:00.380 even more.

00:35:01.060 I think we're going

00:35:01.460 to have to rethink

00:35:02.120 the nation state

00:35:02.960 and things like that.

00:35:05.100 Because the way

00:35:06.140 history is pushing us

00:35:08.620 is towards,

00:35:10.640 you know,

00:35:11.060 understanding ourselves

00:35:12.140 as a race

00:35:13.260 and civilization.

00:35:14.880 Yes.

00:35:15.460 Well,

00:35:15.720 I agree with you

00:35:16.380 about that.

00:35:16.840 That's a very,

00:35:17.480 very complex issue.

00:35:19.200 some of the nations,

00:35:21.600 the nation states

00:35:22.280 of Europe

00:35:22.540 are very ancient.

00:35:23.560 The two that are

00:35:24.020 really very ancient

00:35:24.760 are England

00:35:25.220 and France.

00:35:26.860 England became

00:35:28.680 recognizably

00:35:30.060 a nation,

00:35:31.320 assisted,

00:35:31.920 of course,

00:35:32.220 by the fact

00:35:33.000 that it was

00:35:34.260 an island.

00:35:37.260 Long,

00:35:37.900 long ago,

00:35:40.020 long before

00:35:40.860 the Norman Conquest,

00:35:42.540 by,

00:35:43.320 by,

00:35:43.940 well before

00:35:44.360 the year 1000,

00:35:45.720 there was

00:35:46.340 an English state

00:35:48.180 recognising

00:35:48.860 the English state.

00:35:50.140 Really,

00:35:50.820 Alfred the Great

00:35:52.120 created the English state

00:35:53.520 by welding together

00:35:54.580 the seven disparate

00:35:55.720 kingdoms of

00:35:56.420 Anglo-Saxon England

00:35:58.240 in a kind of

00:36:00.520 resistant front

00:36:01.500 to Danish

00:36:02.080 and Norwegian

00:36:03.200 Viking invaders

00:36:04.600 who'd conquered

00:36:05.240 the larger part

00:36:06.220 of the country.

00:36:08.160 And the idea

00:36:09.260 of Englishness

00:36:10.080 as a national identity

00:36:11.400 emerged so long ago

00:36:12.900 as that

00:36:13.460 in opposition

00:36:14.380 to the Viking invaders.

00:36:15.980 France again

00:36:17.940 emerged as a

00:36:19.060 nation-state

00:36:19.820 a very long

00:36:20.960 time ago

00:36:22.200 under the

00:36:23.920 influence

00:36:24.640 of the French

00:36:25.400 Royal House

00:36:26.340 and its

00:36:27.380 ambitions,

00:36:28.320 originally in a

00:36:29.020 fairly small

00:36:29.820 territory around

00:36:30.880 Paris,

00:36:31.480 but later

00:36:31.980 encompassing

00:36:33.280 more and more

00:36:34.100 territory.

00:36:35.280 Now,

00:36:35.520 that is certainly

00:36:36.240 not the case

00:36:37.540 of other

00:36:38.260 European nations.

00:36:40.560 The next

00:36:41.440 to emerge

00:36:41.960 were the

00:36:42.220 Iberian nations.

00:36:43.620 Spain only

00:36:45.580 really

00:36:46.500 came to be

00:36:49.100 as a

00:36:49.560 nation-state

00:36:50.380 with the

00:36:50.800 union of

00:36:51.700 Aragon and

00:36:52.400 Castile

00:36:53.120 in the

00:36:53.540 15th century.

00:36:55.140 Before then,

00:36:55.760 it had been

00:36:56.400 several Christian

00:36:57.400 kingdoms and

00:36:57.980 indeed several

00:36:58.520 Moorish Muslim

00:36:59.240 kingdoms

00:36:59.680 constantly

00:37:00.140 a war with

00:37:00.640 one another.

00:37:02.320 The other

00:37:03.100 European nations

00:37:03.920 outside Iberia

00:37:05.000 emerged even

00:37:05.720 later.

00:37:06.140 Spain and

00:37:06.480 Portugal,

00:37:06.820 again,

00:37:07.140 are quite

00:37:07.540 old nations

00:37:08.780 relatively speaking.

00:37:09.940 Germany and

00:37:10.400 Italy,

00:37:10.720 for example,

00:37:11.260 are not.

00:37:11.820 Germany as

00:37:14.900 a nation-state

00:37:15.880 really only

00:37:17.540 emerged in

00:37:18.660 the later

00:37:19.040 parts of

00:37:19.440 the 19th

00:37:19.820 century as

00:37:21.660 Italy.

00:37:23.140 There had

00:37:23.600 been no

00:37:24.100 concept since

00:37:26.320 well.

00:37:27.220 Well,

00:37:27.440 there had

00:37:27.820 been a

00:37:28.160 concept of

00:37:28.940 a German.

00:37:29.620 I mean,

00:37:29.880 the word

00:37:30.440 German,

00:37:31.140 Deutsch,

00:37:31.960 is much

00:37:32.900 older than

00:37:33.360 that.

00:37:33.780 There had

00:37:35.280 been a

00:37:35.600 concept of

00:37:36.460 a different

00:37:37.460 kind of

00:37:38.000 nationality.

00:37:38.640 I think

00:37:39.200 this is

00:37:39.620 where,

00:37:39.960 you know,

00:37:40.940 and sometimes

00:37:41.440 language fails

00:37:42.460 us because

00:37:43.100 you will use

00:37:44.520 words like

00:37:45.040 Germany and

00:37:45.920 we'll have

00:37:46.280 this notion

00:37:47.180 of what that

00:37:47.660 means.

00:37:48.340 But actually,

00:37:49.240 it's different.

00:37:49.960 It can have

00:37:50.300 different resonances.

00:37:51.860 It did,

00:37:52.320 but in a

00:37:52.520 different way.

00:37:53.020 For example,

00:37:53.500 in ancient

00:37:54.140 Greece,

00:37:56.700 a Spartan,

00:37:57.820 an Athenian,

00:37:58.520 a Theban,

00:37:59.080 a Corinthian,

00:38:00.200 would all,

00:38:01.140 at another

00:38:01.660 level,

00:38:02.200 think of

00:38:02.520 themselves as

00:38:03.160 Greeks.

00:38:03.960 But their

00:38:04.640 primary loyalty

00:38:05.560 would be to

00:38:06.180 their city-state.

00:38:07.280 So I

00:38:09.040 agree,

00:38:09.960 in Germany,

00:38:10.700 long before

00:38:11.280 Bismarck's

00:38:11.960 time,

00:38:12.880 there was

00:38:13.140 a certain

00:38:13.800 sense of

00:38:15.100 cultural

00:38:15.680 unity,

00:38:16.920 but there

00:38:17.700 was no

00:38:18.440 political

00:38:19.320 unity,

00:38:20.240 and ever

00:38:21.400 since the

00:38:21.860 Reformation,

00:38:22.680 Germany had

00:38:23.160 been bitterly

00:38:24.280 fractured and

00:38:25.060 divided along

00:38:25.860 religious lines

00:38:26.860 with rival

00:38:27.600 power centres

00:38:28.380 in Vienna

00:38:29.420 and Berlin

00:38:30.720 for Catholic

00:38:32.140 and Protestant

00:38:32.900 states.

00:38:33.700 So the

00:38:35.320 emergence of

00:38:36.260 Germany as

00:38:37.600 a nation

00:38:38.340 state,

00:38:39.220 in many

00:38:40.400 ways,

00:38:40.840 was a

00:38:41.220 rather

00:38:41.520 artificial

00:38:42.520 nation

00:38:43.000 state,

00:38:43.640 in fact,

00:38:44.500 that came

00:38:46.260 about through

00:38:46.900 Bismarck's

00:38:48.000 political

00:38:48.820 intrigues,

00:38:50.580 and in

00:38:51.400 many ways

00:38:51.980 as a

00:38:53.400 reaction to

00:38:54.620 Napoleon's

00:38:55.860 invasions of

00:38:56.660 Germany,

00:38:57.160 in which he

00:38:58.100 inflicted the

00:38:58.760 most terrible

00:38:59.220 things upon

00:39:00.140 his subjects,

00:39:01.920 largely conscripted

00:39:02.960 the Grand

00:39:03.460 Armée,

00:39:03.880 and sent

00:39:04.200 off to

00:39:04.540 Russia to

00:39:05.080 die for

00:39:05.760 Napoleon's

00:39:06.420 imperial

00:39:06.800 ambitions.

00:39:07.940 It had

00:39:08.060 nothing to

00:39:08.480 do with

00:39:08.780 some

00:39:08.960 unfortunate

00:39:09.480 Württemberg

00:39:10.500 who was

00:39:11.460 pressed into

00:39:12.040 the army,

00:39:13.140 and sent

00:39:13.540 off a

00:39:14.060 couple of

00:39:14.400 thousand

00:39:14.640 miles away

00:39:15.180 to die

00:39:15.480 of hunger

00:39:15.860 and cold

00:39:16.460 fighting a

00:39:17.100 war that

00:39:17.580 he didn't

00:39:17.900 understand

00:39:18.520 for an

00:39:18.820 emperor whose

00:39:19.300 language he

00:39:19.780 couldn't

00:39:19.980 speak and

00:39:20.400 whom he

00:39:20.680 probably loathed

00:39:21.540 and detested

00:39:22.280 and could

00:39:22.640 reason.

00:39:24.660 So that was

00:39:25.540 in the

00:39:25.760 background.

00:39:27.820 Coming back

00:39:28.700 to your

00:39:29.060 idea,

00:39:30.480 yes,

00:39:30.920 I'm not

00:39:32.000 by any

00:39:32.580 means

00:39:32.900 opposed to

00:39:33.840 the idea

00:39:34.640 of

00:39:35.900 overarching

00:39:37.140 European

00:39:37.600 identity,

00:39:38.460 and to

00:39:38.700 that extent

00:39:39.180 I disagree

00:39:39.840 with the

00:39:40.680 little

00:39:40.940 Englanders

00:39:41.540 of whom

00:39:42.080 we have

00:39:42.380 altogether

00:39:43.020 too many

00:39:43.640 in this

00:39:44.160 country,

00:39:45.360 who are

00:39:48.640 apt to

00:39:49.140 think that

00:39:49.860 anybody on

00:39:51.080 the other

00:39:51.380 side of

00:39:51.800 the channel

00:39:52.360 is completely

00:39:53.880 beyond the

00:39:54.420 pale and

00:39:55.960 utterly

00:39:56.240 incomprehensible

00:39:57.080 and alien.

00:39:57.580 A lot

00:39:58.840 of this

00:39:59.100 has got

00:39:59.400 to do

00:39:59.660 with

00:39:59.780 linguistic

00:40:00.300 chauvinism.

00:40:01.140 Very few

00:40:01.540 people in

00:40:01.960 England can

00:40:02.400 speak a

00:40:02.880 foreign

00:40:03.080 language.

00:40:03.700 It's not

00:40:04.000 much better

00:40:04.460 than the

00:40:04.780 United States

00:40:05.420 in that

00:40:05.760 respect.

00:40:06.720 I would

00:40:07.040 say

00:40:07.280 mitigation.

00:40:08.020 The second

00:40:08.380 worst

00:40:08.780 nation in

00:40:09.340 Europe in

00:40:09.680 this

00:40:09.840 respect is

00:40:10.500 France,

00:40:11.700 where,

00:40:12.340 again,

00:40:12.640 very few

00:40:13.260 people can

00:40:13.760 speak a

00:40:14.160 foreign

00:40:14.400 language,

00:40:14.840 and if

00:40:15.060 they can,

00:40:15.640 it's usually

00:40:16.020 English,

00:40:16.640 not another

00:40:17.100 European

00:40:17.460 language.

00:40:18.340 that leads

00:40:21.400 to a very

00:40:21.860 narrow sense

00:40:22.840 of identity.

00:40:24.140 If you're

00:40:24.660 not capable,

00:40:26.500 literally not

00:40:27.420 capable of

00:40:27.960 speaking to

00:40:28.380 people in

00:40:28.740 the country

00:40:29.240 next to

00:40:30.020 your own,

00:40:30.840 certainly

00:40:31.200 not in

00:40:33.460 their language

00:40:34.720 nor they

00:40:35.380 in yours,

00:40:37.000 it leads

00:40:38.140 to a

00:40:38.460 measure of

00:40:39.140 estrangement,

00:40:40.620 a lasting

00:40:41.180 estrangement.

00:40:42.780 Now,

00:40:43.140 I'm all in

00:40:43.700 favour of

00:40:44.180 the idea of

00:40:44.720 an overarching

00:40:45.440 European

00:40:46.380 identity.

00:40:47.460 I'm not

00:40:47.880 sure I'm

00:40:48.240 in favour of

00:40:48.780 the idea

00:40:49.140 of an

00:40:49.380 overarching

00:40:49.800 European

00:40:50.280 state.

00:40:51.720 I'm not

00:40:52.320 sure I'm

00:40:52.560 necessarily

00:40:52.880 against it,

00:40:53.560 I keep an

00:40:54.040 open mind

00:40:54.640 on this

00:40:55.120 subject,

00:40:55.860 but any

00:40:56.660 form of

00:40:57.080 European

00:40:57.380 unity would

00:40:57.980 have to

00:40:58.140 be a

00:40:58.340 much

00:40:58.540 looser

00:40:59.260 European

00:41:01.740 Union

00:41:02.340 than that

00:41:03.480 which the

00:41:04.300 architects

00:41:04.920 of the

00:41:05.580 present

00:41:06.400 entity that

00:41:08.200 calls itself

00:41:08.820 the European

00:41:09.240 Union

00:41:09.580 would wish

00:41:09.920 to see,

00:41:10.580 which involves

00:41:11.220 a high

00:41:11.520 measure of

00:41:11.940 political,

00:41:12.840 social,

00:41:13.300 economic,

00:41:13.860 and so on

00:41:14.160 centralisation.

00:41:15.700 That, I

00:41:16.400 think, is

00:41:16.660 probably not

00:41:17.220 acceptable to

00:41:17.900 most of the

00:41:18.300 peoples of

00:41:18.800 Europe,

00:41:19.580 not desired.

00:41:20.940 Well, we'll

00:41:21.760 see.

00:41:22.860 I think we

00:41:23.920 don't know

00:41:24.820 what kind

00:41:26.280 of political

00:41:27.380 form will

00:41:28.440 come into

00:41:28.880 being.

00:41:29.580 And I

00:41:29.880 would say

00:41:30.480 that I

00:41:31.000 think this

00:41:32.180 holds,

00:41:34.040 and there's

00:41:34.600 some exceptions

00:41:35.660 to this

00:41:36.400 maxim, which

00:41:37.700 I'm going to

00:41:38.020 say, but

00:41:38.460 politics is

00:41:39.620 really, it

00:41:40.760 lags behind

00:41:42.100 social and

00:41:43.680 cultural change.

00:41:44.680 Yes, yes,

00:41:45.620 I absolutely

00:41:47.720 agree with

00:41:48.120 you about

00:41:48.540 what you

00:41:49.320 say, that

00:41:49.800 politics tends

00:41:50.620 to lag

00:41:51.120 behind cultural

00:41:53.260 and, if you

00:41:55.340 like,

00:41:55.540 metapolitical

00:41:56.340 change.

00:41:58.620 And no

00:41:59.920 doubt we

00:42:00.380 shall see

00:42:01.220 that lag

00:42:03.260 slowly work

00:42:04.660 itself out

00:42:06.720 over the

00:42:07.460 next 20 or

00:42:08.160 30 years.

00:42:08.900 Yes, yeah,

00:42:09.800 I think

00:42:10.340 what a

00:42:11.420 European

00:42:12.040 Union might

00:42:12.980 be, we

00:42:14.040 just don't

00:42:14.640 know what

00:42:15.080 it is.

00:42:17.100 But I

00:42:17.980 think we

00:42:18.680 were both

00:42:19.020 on agreement.

00:42:20.260 I might

00:42:20.780 be more

00:42:21.320 wildly

00:42:22.180 enthusiastic

00:42:22.920 about a

00:42:24.260 European

00:42:24.600 super state

00:42:25.340 than you.

00:42:27.220 That's

00:42:27.780 because you

00:42:28.760 live in

00:42:29.100 Montana and

00:42:29.920 I live in

00:42:30.480 Europe.

00:42:31.360 It's very

00:42:31.920 easy to

00:42:33.060 have

00:42:36.180 idealistic

00:42:37.760 views.

00:42:38.900 of other

00:42:41.000 countries.

00:42:41.520 My late

00:42:42.040 father, who

00:42:42.880 was a

00:42:44.260 convert to

00:42:45.220 Catholicism,

00:42:47.580 used to

00:42:48.760 act lyrical

00:42:49.460 about Ireland,

00:42:50.800 the land of

00:42:51.520 saints and

00:42:52.260 scholars.

00:42:53.380 This is very

00:42:53.800 funny.

00:42:54.720 He was an

00:42:55.060 English

00:42:55.360 convert to

00:42:56.000 Catholicism.

00:42:56.740 He taught

00:42:57.040 in a Catholic

00:42:57.460 school where

00:42:58.120 90% of his

00:42:58.820 colleagues were

00:42:59.320 Irish.

00:42:59.700 One of them

00:42:59.980 said to him,

00:43:00.900 have you ever

00:43:01.260 been to

00:43:01.620 Ireland?

00:43:02.040 He said,

00:43:02.420 no.

00:43:02.720 He said,

00:43:02.980 it's the

00:43:03.320 land of

00:43:03.980 drunkards

00:43:04.760 and lay

00:43:05.700 abouts.

00:43:07.680 And the

00:43:08.220 only people

00:43:08.800 who do

00:43:09.140 any work

00:43:09.720 are the

00:43:10.000 Protestant

00:43:10.440 minority.

00:43:12.540 This was a

00:43:13.280 Catholic

00:43:13.820 Irish woman

00:43:14.860 from a

00:43:15.340 rural area

00:43:16.180 explaining

00:43:16.900 reality to

00:43:18.060 him.

00:43:19.640 In many

00:43:20.380 respects,

00:43:20.800 I respect

00:43:21.720 for my

00:43:22.180 late father,

00:43:22.840 who was a

00:43:23.020 very great

00:43:23.380 man in his

00:43:23.860 own way.

00:43:24.700 But in

00:43:25.120 that regard,

00:43:25.820 he didn't

00:43:26.420 half remind

00:43:27.120 me of

00:43:27.420 communists who

00:43:28.400 waxed lyrical

00:43:29.040 about the

00:43:29.500 Soviet Union

00:43:30.260 without ever

00:43:30.920 having been

00:43:31.780 there.

00:43:32.400 view of

00:43:35.720 it taken

00:43:36.240 really from

00:43:36.760 his ideal

00:43:37.520 of how

00:43:37.960 it ought

00:43:38.540 to be,

00:43:39.240 not the

00:43:39.960 reality with

00:43:40.820 which those

00:43:41.380 who grew

00:43:41.760 up there

00:43:42.140 were much

00:43:42.600 more familiar.

00:43:44.720 Right.

00:43:45.060 You know,

00:43:45.560 Napoleon was

00:43:47.000 an outsider.

00:43:48.120 Certain other

00:43:48.700 historical figures

00:43:49.860 were outsiders.

00:43:51.120 Outsiders,

00:43:51.600 yes.

00:43:51.760 You know,

00:43:52.440 that's how it

00:43:53.340 goes.

00:43:54.080 Well,

00:43:54.440 indeed,

00:43:55.280 and look what

00:43:55.740 Napoleon

00:43:56.120 ultimately did

00:43:57.040 for France,

00:43:59.060 much the same

00:44:00.380 as that other

00:44:01.000 outsider did

00:44:01.880 for Germany,

00:44:02.580 which,

00:44:02.820 say,

00:44:03.020 reduced the

00:44:03.520 country to

00:44:04.040 rack and

00:44:04.540 ruin with

00:44:05.020 the Cossacks

00:44:05.660 encamped upon

00:44:06.640 the Champs

00:44:07.240 Elysees,

00:44:08.760 much as I

00:44:10.100 say as that

00:44:10.560 other outsider

00:44:11.480 reduced Germany

00:44:12.760 to rack and

00:44:13.420 ruin with

00:44:14.140 the Cossacks

00:44:15.920 encamped on

00:44:16.740 the under-day

00:44:17.300 Linde.

00:44:18.120 It didn't end

00:44:18.820 terribly well

00:44:19.560 for either

00:44:20.840 state,

00:44:21.420 did it?

00:44:23.260 That's

00:44:23.820 touché.

00:44:26.700 France and

00:44:27.500 the

00:44:27.620 Ancien

00:44:28.080 Régime

00:44:28.880 I think

00:44:31.200 for all

00:44:32.340 the fault

00:44:32.720 of the

00:44:32.980 Bourbon,

00:44:33.900 at least

00:44:34.580 didn't have

00:44:36.160 such

00:44:36.540 unrealisable

00:44:37.440 ambitions

00:44:38.020 as a

00:44:38.440 little

00:44:38.640 Corsican

00:44:39.220 did,

00:44:40.380 and look

00:44:41.900 how those

00:44:42.420 ended.

00:44:43.680 I'm very

00:44:44.480 cautious about

00:44:45.500 people who

00:44:46.320 have,

00:44:47.160 that's one

00:44:47.600 of the

00:44:47.700 things that

00:44:48.420 I've learned

00:44:48.880 with age,

00:44:49.460 be very

00:44:49.840 cautious about

00:44:50.580 people who

00:44:51.540 have great

00:44:52.460 ideals for

00:44:53.660 their nations,

00:44:55.540 those great

00:44:56.560 dreams.

00:44:57.320 the same

00:44:58.880 Emperor

00:44:59.180 Napoleon

00:44:59.740 who once

00:45:01.100 remarked

00:45:02.340 about,

00:45:04.940 indeed about

00:45:05.700 the Russian

00:45:06.140 campaign,

00:45:07.540 a million

00:45:07.980 dead,

00:45:08.580 what's that

00:45:09.060 for a man

00:45:09.540 like me?

00:45:11.480 Well,

00:45:11.840 for a million

00:45:12.180 dead it was

00:45:12.740 quite a lot,

00:45:13.360 wasn't it?

00:45:14.620 Right.

00:45:15.700 But yes,

00:45:16.380 I,

00:45:16.560 while I think

00:45:19.060 some of the

00:45:19.500 efforts,

00:45:20.440 some of the

00:45:21.000 endeavours to

00:45:23.180 create a

00:45:24.060 European state

00:45:24.840 in the past

00:45:25.400 have been

00:45:25.700 somewhat

00:45:26.000 catastrophic,

00:45:27.860 the idea

00:45:28.960 of at

00:45:32.240 least some

00:45:34.260 measure of

00:45:35.460 unity between

00:45:36.160 the European

00:45:36.580 nations is

00:45:38.500 in principle

00:45:39.160 a noble

00:45:39.680 ideal,

00:45:40.520 one to which

00:45:41.540 I subscribe.

00:45:42.520 We certainly

00:45:42.960 don't want

00:45:43.560 any more of

00:45:44.400 the kinds

00:45:44.900 of fratricidal

00:45:45.900 wars that

00:45:46.920 tore Europe

00:45:47.460 apart in the

00:45:49.300 20th century,

00:45:49.900 and indeed

00:45:50.280 before that,

00:45:51.100 in the 19th

00:45:51.860 century.

00:45:52.300 we would

00:45:54.880 certainly

00:45:55.220 never want

00:45:55.920 to see

00:45:56.500 that again.

00:45:58.840 And I don't

00:45:59.120 think that's

00:45:59.520 going to

00:45:59.720 happen.

00:46:00.080 I think

00:46:00.420 actually a

00:46:01.200 war between

00:46:02.180 Germany and

00:46:03.340 France,

00:46:03.960 it not only

00:46:05.280 would strike

00:46:06.060 people as

00:46:06.760 terrible and

00:46:07.640 tragic,

00:46:08.060 but it would

00:46:08.580 almost strike

00:46:08.960 people as

00:46:09.320 ridiculous.

00:46:10.220 It doesn't

00:46:10.720 make sense,

00:46:11.640 and I think

00:46:12.420 that's actually

00:46:13.080 a very important

00:46:14.060 historical development,

00:46:15.800 the fact that

00:46:16.460 it just doesn't

00:46:17.120 make sense.

00:46:17.880 It's not in

00:46:18.660 the realm of

00:46:19.160 possibilities

00:46:19.740 anymore.

00:46:21.020 And that's

00:46:22.040 a good thing,

00:46:22.980 and we should

00:46:23.340 look at that,

00:46:24.180 of where is

00:46:24.720 all this

00:46:25.100 leading?

00:46:26.520 No, I

00:46:26.880 absolutely

00:46:27.380 agree with you

00:46:27.740 about that.

00:46:28.800 That's a

00:46:29.440 very, very

00:46:30.040 positive thing.

00:46:31.960 A very

00:46:32.820 positive thing

00:46:33.760 indeed.

00:46:35.480 There is

00:46:36.720 almost no

00:46:38.320 chance of

00:46:40.240 another

00:46:40.740 conflict of

00:46:43.080 the kind

00:46:43.720 that we

00:46:44.120 saw between

00:46:44.520 1914,

00:46:45.600 1918,

00:46:46.280 1939,

00:46:47.080 1945,

00:46:47.840 between

00:46:48.020 European states,

00:46:48.800 or indeed

00:46:49.160 of the

00:46:49.380 kind

00:46:49.640 to say

00:46:50.040 that we

00:46:50.320 saw in

00:46:51.240 the

00:46:51.380 19th

00:46:51.940 century,

00:46:52.400 the

00:46:52.520 Franco-Prussian

00:46:53.440 War,

00:46:55.260 etc.

00:46:56.820 Thankfully,

00:46:57.520 that time

00:46:58.140 is past.

00:46:59.120 I think

00:46:59.620 it will

00:46:59.900 never come

00:47:00.540 again.

00:47:01.120 I hope

00:47:01.500 it will

00:47:01.740 never come

00:47:02.240 again.

00:47:03.480 And that

00:47:04.260 is a

00:47:04.680 very,

00:47:05.120 very good

00:47:05.500 thing.

00:47:05.920 Not all

00:47:06.260 the developments

00:47:07.180 since 1945

00:47:08.900 have been

00:47:10.620 negative.

00:47:12.120 That is

00:47:12.840 a big

00:47:13.560 positive.

00:47:15.480 I do

00:47:16.280 not believe

00:47:17.000 that we

00:47:17.420 shall see

00:47:17.900 such things

00:47:18.600 again.

00:47:18.980 I'm very

00:47:19.680 happy to

00:47:20.180 say.

00:47:21.080 I agree.

00:47:22.060 What we're

00:47:22.980 much more

00:47:24.700 likely to

00:47:25.080 see,

00:47:25.540 a catastrophic

00:47:26.980 civil and

00:47:28.860 social disorder

00:47:29.980 within the

00:47:31.120 disintegrating

00:47:32.120 states,

00:47:33.140 whose

00:47:33.700 multiracial,

00:47:34.700 multireligious,

00:47:36.120 multicultural

00:47:36.780 polities fall

00:47:37.760 apart.

00:47:39.240 I agree.

00:47:40.500 I think that

00:47:41.200 is where the

00:47:42.900 arrow of

00:47:43.400 history is

00:47:43.900 pointing.

00:47:44.180 I think

00:47:47.000 this is a

00:47:47.880 little bit

00:47:48.160 less now,

00:47:48.880 but in

00:47:49.540 2014,

00:47:51.520 I was

00:47:52.440 almost

00:47:52.740 thinking that

00:47:53.380 we were

00:47:53.640 about to

00:47:54.020 see a

00:47:54.420 repeat of

00:47:55.260 1914 with

00:47:57.120 all of

00:47:57.540 these tensions

00:47:58.300 between

00:47:58.880 Washington

00:48:00.560 and Europe

00:48:02.080 and Russia

00:48:02.720 and this

00:48:04.120 battling over

00:48:05.600 Ukraine.

00:48:06.600 It kind of

00:48:07.340 reminded me of

00:48:07.900 some damn

00:48:08.440 thing in the

00:48:08.900 Balkans.

00:48:09.460 it was

00:48:11.380 this little

00:48:12.240 conflict that

00:48:13.800 was about

00:48:14.160 to spread.

00:48:15.960 I think

00:48:16.420 that's

00:48:16.840 lessened a

00:48:17.500 little bit.

00:48:18.100 Actually,

00:48:18.620 I did want

00:48:19.320 to shift

00:48:19.740 gears a

00:48:20.220 little bit

00:48:20.560 into foreign

00:48:21.180 policy before

00:48:22.000 we put a

00:48:23.640 bookmark in

00:48:24.180 the conversation.

00:48:25.820 I can

00:48:26.620 remember when

00:48:27.540 I was just

00:48:28.120 out of

00:48:28.420 college,

00:48:29.960 there was

00:48:30.260 this so-called

00:48:31.980 great Atlantic

00:48:33.620 divide between

00:48:35.140 America and

00:48:36.680 Europe.

00:48:37.440 It was

00:48:37.700 mostly over

00:48:38.860 the Iraq

00:48:39.580 war where

00:48:41.420 Europeans,

00:48:43.180 you know,

00:48:44.380 European

00:48:44.980 leaders,

00:48:46.600 it was

00:48:47.000 named

00:48:47.200 Villepin,

00:48:49.260 gosh,

00:48:50.180 that seems

00:48:50.560 so long

00:48:51.020 ago now,

00:48:53.040 Dominique

00:48:54.160 de Villepin,

00:48:55.760 who actually

00:48:56.800 was a

00:48:57.300 foreign

00:48:57.540 minister of

00:48:58.100 France who

00:48:58.660 resisted the

00:48:59.340 Iraq invasion.

00:49:00.980 And there

00:49:01.620 were all

00:49:01.820 these books

00:49:02.320 written about

00:49:03.040 Mars and

00:49:04.140 Venus and

00:49:04.860 all this

00:49:05.200 kind of

00:49:05.480 stuff.

00:49:05.720 I almost

00:49:09.700 took the

00:49:10.200 European side,

00:49:10.960 not almost,

00:49:11.900 I did take

00:49:12.440 the European

00:49:12.840 side in

00:49:13.480 this debate.

00:49:15.160 I would

00:49:15.940 say that

00:49:16.460 certainly

00:49:17.060 that tension

00:49:17.780 lessened for

00:49:18.700 quite some

00:49:19.160 time.

00:49:20.580 And there

00:49:20.880 was actually

00:49:21.260 a lot of

00:49:21.660 collaboration

00:49:22.320 between

00:49:23.020 America and

00:49:24.020 Europe and

00:49:24.480 engaging in

00:49:25.280 totally pointless

00:49:26.380 and stupid

00:49:27.260 and destructive

00:49:27.940 wars like

00:49:28.840 overthrowing

00:49:29.560 Gaddafi's

00:49:30.100 regime in

00:49:30.620 Libya and

00:49:31.100 so on.

00:49:31.420 And they

00:49:32.800 seem to

00:49:33.340 have wanted

00:49:34.620 to do

00:49:35.000 that to

00:49:35.560 Syria.

00:49:36.600 But they

00:49:37.320 were prevented

00:49:38.280 doing that

00:49:39.620 by a number

00:49:40.380 of forces,

00:49:41.100 including Russia

00:49:43.020 actually coming

00:49:43.680 back onto the

00:49:44.480 scene.

00:49:45.440 But do you

00:49:45.760 think there,

00:49:46.580 I don't know,

00:49:47.360 it seems like

00:49:48.260 Washington has

00:49:49.240 just been

00:49:49.680 playing with

00:49:50.720 fire.

00:49:51.520 It's been

00:49:51.760 playing this

00:49:52.180 really dangerous

00:49:53.180 game by

00:49:54.760 jumping on

00:49:56.040 the Arab

00:49:56.440 spring,

00:49:57.740 by throwing

00:49:58.880 money and

00:49:59.520 weapons at

00:50:00.320 moderate

00:50:01.300 rebels and

00:50:02.240 some,

00:50:02.920 you know,

00:50:03.760 pointless

00:50:04.620 effort at

00:50:05.300 overthrowing

00:50:06.000 the Assad

00:50:07.140 regime in

00:50:08.220 Syria.

00:50:09.280 What's going

00:50:10.240 on is

00:50:10.920 almost beyond

00:50:12.660 credence.

00:50:15.140 It truly

00:50:16.520 is because

00:50:17.620 the foreign

00:50:19.220 policies of

00:50:20.440 America and

00:50:21.580 its European

00:50:22.660 allies or

00:50:24.180 the unkind

00:50:24.960 would say

00:50:25.640 satellites in

00:50:27.380 the Middle

00:50:27.720 East truly

00:50:28.700 defy belief.

00:50:30.320 that they

00:50:31.200 have plunged

00:50:32.120 into a

00:50:33.520 maelstrom of

00:50:35.580 ethnic and

00:50:37.920 religious

00:50:38.780 conflicts that

00:50:41.040 they can

00:50:41.460 scarcely begin

00:50:42.280 to comprehend.

00:50:44.180 That would

00:50:44.880 be bad

00:50:45.420 enough in

00:50:46.780 itself were

00:50:47.960 it not for

00:50:48.700 their own

00:50:49.220 complete lack

00:50:50.480 of logic.

00:50:51.800 So, for

00:50:52.280 example, in

00:50:53.520 Iraq.

00:50:54.460 Iraq is a

00:50:55.100 totally artificial

00:50:55.700 state.

00:50:56.820 It has no

00:50:58.180 reality.

00:50:58.740 It's a

00:50:59.680 collection of

00:51:00.160 lines on

00:51:00.800 the map

00:51:01.240 drawn by

00:51:01.920 the British

00:51:02.660 when they

00:51:04.080 agreed with

00:51:04.600 the French

00:51:05.060 under the

00:51:05.540 famous or

00:51:06.120 infamous Sykes-Picot

00:51:07.340 agreement how

00:51:08.400 the allied

00:51:09.280 victors of the

00:51:10.160 1914-1918 war

00:51:12.240 would divide up

00:51:13.320 the spoils of

00:51:14.140 the Middle

00:51:14.460 East, which

00:51:15.000 were effectively

00:51:15.440 the spoils of

00:51:16.080 the Ottoman

00:51:16.460 Empire, which

00:51:17.580 they correctly

00:51:18.120 anticipated would

00:51:19.140 collapse.

00:51:19.840 they correctly

00:51:22.980 anticipated the

00:51:23.680 Arabs would

00:51:25.000 no longer

00:51:25.620 tolerate their

00:51:26.420 Turkish overlords

00:51:27.720 and they

00:51:29.280 decided that

00:51:30.360 they would

00:51:31.400 set up

00:51:32.300 states that

00:51:33.900 would be

00:51:34.380 dominated in

00:51:35.360 effect by

00:51:36.380 London or

00:51:38.520 Paris, as the

00:51:39.260 case may be.

00:51:40.020 Now, these

00:51:40.420 states have

00:51:42.640 no real

00:51:44.380 basis.

00:51:45.420 Iraq has

00:51:47.960 no proper

00:51:49.920 foundation, if

00:51:51.860 I can put it

00:51:52.220 this way.

00:51:53.340 It has

00:51:54.180 different

00:51:54.540 peoples.

00:51:55.140 It has

00:51:55.340 Arabs and

00:51:55.900 Kurds, who

00:51:56.860 are not

00:51:57.260 closely related

00:51:59.080 to one

00:51:59.440 another.

00:51:59.740 Kurdish is an

00:52:00.300 Indo-European

00:52:01.040 language, for

00:52:01.780 example, Arabic

00:52:02.540 and Semitic

00:52:03.040 language, so

00:52:04.220 the Kurdish is

00:52:04.840 more closely

00:52:06.040 related to

00:52:06.520 English than

00:52:07.060 it is to

00:52:07.440 Arabic.

00:52:08.760 It has

00:52:09.520 no religious

00:52:10.420 unity.

00:52:12.300 It's

00:52:12.600 bitterly

00:52:13.020 divided between

00:52:14.280 the Sunni and

00:52:15.200 Shia sects,

00:52:16.120 who have

00:52:16.620 complex theological

00:52:17.700 disputes about

00:52:18.400 the correct

00:52:18.800 interpretation of

00:52:19.760 Islam that are

00:52:20.380 not easy for

00:52:21.240 Christians to

00:52:22.040 understand.

00:52:23.340 Anymore than

00:52:24.000 the Catholic

00:52:24.400 Protestant dispute

00:52:25.340 is no doubt

00:52:25.920 easy for

00:52:26.400 Muslims to

00:52:26.960 understand.

00:52:28.960 And the

00:52:30.240 result,

00:52:30.840 therefore, is

00:52:31.500 that the

00:52:32.380 state divides

00:52:33.280 upon both

00:52:33.980 religious and

00:52:34.760 racial grounds,

00:52:35.880 although the

00:52:36.380 divisions are

00:52:36.900 somewhat different

00:52:37.600 because the

00:52:38.220 Kurds are

00:52:38.640 Sunni Muslims.

00:52:41.260 It's the

00:52:41.880 Arab population

00:52:42.660 that's

00:52:42.920 religiously

00:52:43.440 divided.

00:52:43.880 The Kurds

00:52:44.260 are actually

00:52:44.560 religiously

00:52:45.220 homogenous.

00:52:46.060 They're all

00:52:46.360 Sunni Muslims.

00:52:46.980 The Arabs

00:52:47.320 are divided

00:52:47.720 between Shia

00:52:48.420 and Sunni.

00:52:50.180 Now, what

00:52:51.640 is so

00:52:52.020 bizarre is

00:52:53.540 that in

00:52:53.840 Iraq, the

00:52:55.920 Western

00:52:56.400 coalition led

00:52:57.240 by the

00:52:57.560 United States

00:52:58.340 overthrew the

00:52:59.340 government of

00:52:59.980 Saddam Hussein,

00:53:02.200 who managed

00:53:04.100 to maintain

00:53:04.880 some kind

00:53:07.380 peace,

00:53:09.060 although only

00:53:10.320 by brutal

00:53:10.900 repression

00:53:11.520 between the

00:53:13.540 different

00:53:13.840 ethno-religious

00:53:14.620 groups.

00:53:15.540 And what

00:53:15.920 they have

00:53:16.180 installed is

00:53:17.260 a sectarian

00:53:18.260 government

00:53:19.240 dominated by

00:53:20.840 elements of

00:53:21.680 the Shia

00:53:22.480 community,

00:53:23.080 who are the

00:53:23.800 majority in

00:53:25.060 numerical terms,

00:53:26.000 and were long

00:53:26.660 oppressed by

00:53:29.140 the Sunni

00:53:29.620 minority, who

00:53:30.480 the British

00:53:30.900 had in fact

00:53:31.540 placed a

00:53:32.080 leadership role

00:53:32.740 in Iraq.

00:53:33.220 the Iraqi

00:53:34.060 army was

00:53:34.560 created by

00:53:35.000 the British

00:53:35.340 in the

00:53:35.640 1920s, and

00:53:36.780 it was

00:53:36.900 officed almost

00:53:37.660 entirely by

00:53:38.480 Sunni.

00:53:40.300 What is so

00:53:41.140 strange about

00:53:42.040 this policy is

00:53:43.080 that Syria is

00:53:43.960 a mirror image

00:53:44.880 of Iraq.

00:53:46.320 In Iraq, the

00:53:47.120 Sunni are the

00:53:48.320 minority, but

00:53:49.240 have long

00:53:49.680 dominated the

00:53:50.560 state.

00:53:51.580 In Syria, the

00:53:52.380 Sunni are the

00:53:52.800 vast majority,

00:53:54.900 but the

00:53:55.380 Alawite sect

00:53:56.420 has dominated

00:53:57.400 the state since

00:53:58.240 the advent of

00:53:59.900 Hafez al-Assad,

00:54:02.100 the President

00:54:02.760 Bashar al-Assad's

00:54:03.840 late father,

00:54:05.120 in the

00:54:05.660 1960s, because

00:54:07.800 for complex

00:54:08.440 historical reasons,

00:54:09.660 the French, who

00:54:10.440 were the

00:54:10.780 colonial overlords

00:54:11.600 of Syria, as

00:54:12.400 we were the

00:54:13.000 colonial overlords

00:54:13.740 of Iraq, had

00:54:14.760 favoured the

00:54:15.400 Alawites over

00:54:16.140 the Sunni

00:54:16.660 majority, and

00:54:17.500 had put the

00:54:18.040 Alawites in

00:54:18.740 charge of the

00:54:19.300 army.

00:54:20.260 In most of

00:54:20.920 these countries,

00:54:21.540 it doesn't

00:54:22.100 matter who

00:54:23.000 the majority

00:54:23.580 is, it

00:54:24.020 matters who

00:54:24.660 controls the

00:54:25.640 army.

00:54:26.660 So the

00:54:27.020 result is that

00:54:27.900 our glorious

00:54:28.620 leaders are

00:54:29.320 supporting

00:54:29.880 the minority,

00:54:31.880 sorry, let's

00:54:32.320 get this

00:54:32.580 right, they're

00:54:33.860 supporting the

00:54:35.140 Shia against

00:54:36.740 the Sunni in

00:54:38.140 Iraq, where

00:54:39.380 traditionally the

00:54:40.260 Sunni were the

00:54:40.740 leadership group.

00:54:42.720 They are

00:54:43.240 supporting the

00:54:44.380 Sunni against

00:54:45.320 the Alawites

00:54:46.300 and various

00:54:46.940 other dissident

00:54:47.780 sects, plus

00:54:49.060 non-Muslims,

00:54:50.340 Christians,

00:54:51.800 Druze, etc.,

00:54:53.580 in Syria.

00:54:55.420 Thus, they

00:54:56.180 are supporting

00:54:58.140 different sides

00:54:59.760 and sectarian

00:55:00.580 conflict in

00:55:01.400 adjoining

00:55:01.820 countries.

00:55:03.160 Now, you

00:55:03.900 tell me the

00:55:05.140 logic of

00:55:06.380 that.

00:55:07.600 It is beyond

00:55:08.880 my comprehension.

00:55:11.360 Incidentally, one

00:55:12.460 of the

00:55:13.020 interesting and

00:55:14.320 deeply

00:55:14.840 unattractive, to

00:55:16.120 my mind,

00:55:16.860 aspects of the

00:55:17.620 last week,

00:55:19.400 very, very

00:55:20.260 revealing about

00:55:21.540 the inner

00:55:22.340 psychology,

00:55:24.260 even of our

00:55:25.340 opponents,

00:55:26.080 is that the

00:55:28.740 horrific Paris

00:55:29.840 massacre was

00:55:30.520 not the only

00:55:31.160 horrific massacre

00:55:32.240 that week.

00:55:33.700 Earlier that

00:55:34.320 week, of course,

00:55:35.680 Islamist

00:55:36.120 elements had

00:55:36.620 downed the

00:55:37.040 Russian jet

00:55:38.440 over Sinai.

00:55:40.480 But there

00:55:40.860 were two

00:55:41.140 other horrific

00:55:41.820 massacres.

00:55:43.480 One was in

00:55:44.780 Baghdad, where

00:55:45.900 they are

00:55:46.240 routine.

00:55:46.880 the other

00:55:49.340 was in

00:55:50.060 Beirut, where

00:55:51.540 members of

00:55:52.200 an extreme

00:55:53.200 Sunni group

00:55:54.960 blew themselves

00:55:56.500 up in front

00:55:57.280 of a Shia

00:55:57.840 mosque on

00:55:58.860 Friday night.

00:56:00.960 Explain their

00:56:01.780 actions in this

00:56:02.560 way.

00:56:03.640 Our knights of

00:56:04.320 jihad waited

00:56:05.420 till a large

00:56:06.300 number of the

00:56:06.880 heretics had

00:56:07.720 gathered outside

00:56:08.500 the house of

00:56:09.280 apostasy, that

00:56:10.380 is to say, the

00:56:10.920 Shia mosque.

00:56:12.240 Then they

00:56:12.720 blew themselves

00:56:13.500 up, taking

00:56:14.140 themselves to

00:56:15.220 heaven and

00:56:15.840 the heretics

00:56:16.440 to hell.

00:56:18.280 Now, this

00:56:19.120 got a couple

00:56:19.760 of column

00:56:20.200 inches in

00:56:20.980 the English

00:56:21.380 press.

00:56:22.060 This atrocious

00:56:23.260 sectarian

00:56:24.560 mass murder

00:56:26.120 cum suicide

00:56:27.160 doesn't matter

00:56:28.660 because everybody

00:56:29.200 involved in it,

00:56:29.800 they're all just

00:56:30.240 Arabs.

00:56:30.920 That's the

00:56:31.300 attitude, the

00:56:32.020 real attitude

00:56:32.920 of the

00:56:33.220 Western press.

00:56:35.240 Curiously

00:56:35.840 enough, they

00:56:36.740 do not believe

00:56:38.100 that brown

00:56:38.640 lives matter,

00:56:39.960 actually.

00:56:40.500 They are such

00:56:42.280 hypocrites that

00:56:44.440 for all their

00:56:45.740 unctuous,

00:56:46.940 fawning,

00:56:47.560 ostensible

00:56:48.340 multiracialism

00:56:49.560 and multiculturalism,

00:56:51.280 the truth is

00:56:52.160 they expect such

00:56:53.440 things to happen

00:56:54.120 in Arab countries

00:56:54.940 and they don't

00:56:55.360 really care about

00:56:56.460 them.

00:56:57.220 They're only really

00:56:58.180 upset, exorcised

00:56:59.480 and agitated

00:57:00.420 when such things

00:57:01.260 happen in rich

00:57:02.140 Western countries.

00:57:03.560 I actually find

00:57:04.460 that quite

00:57:05.020 disgusting.

00:57:06.680 It is absolutely

00:57:07.600 appalling that

00:57:09.740 we are not

00:57:10.780 exercised by

00:57:12.040 the crimes

00:57:12.540 committed by

00:57:13.320 these crazed

00:57:14.440 sects in

00:57:16.420 other countries.

00:57:17.400 It only matters

00:57:18.180 when it happens

00:57:18.800 in a Western

00:57:19.400 country.

00:57:20.120 It's not the

00:57:20.660 case at all.

00:57:22.320 Undoubtedly,

00:57:23.340 these extreme

00:57:24.220 groups do

00:57:26.480 need to be

00:57:27.120 eradicated.

00:57:27.920 To that extent,

00:57:28.400 I actually agree

00:57:29.020 with our

00:57:29.400 establishment

00:57:30.080 just for once.

00:57:31.780 It would be a

00:57:32.720 very good thing

00:57:33.460 if ISIL were

00:57:34.340 completely liquidated.

00:57:36.000 and I do

00:57:37.980 not agree

00:57:38.700 that it only

00:57:39.520 matters when

00:57:40.380 they commit

00:57:40.820 atrocities in

00:57:41.480 European countries.

00:57:42.840 But we have

00:57:44.340 made things much

00:57:45.120 worse in the

00:57:46.140 Middle East.

00:57:46.780 We have taken

00:57:48.340 away, we have

00:57:50.120 swept away

00:57:50.960 those rulers

00:57:52.520 who, brutal

00:57:54.760 and cruel

00:57:55.700 and tyrannical

00:57:56.500 and corrupt

00:57:56.960 though they

00:57:57.440 might have

00:57:58.060 been, were

00:57:59.760 better than

00:58:00.460 what has come

00:58:01.260 after them.

00:58:02.560 Gaddafi was a

00:58:03.400 monstrous,

00:58:03.960 insane person.

00:58:06.140 He's truly

00:58:06.940 out of his

00:58:07.620 mind.

00:58:08.760 But Libya is

00:58:09.380 in a worse

00:58:09.920 state now that

00:58:10.640 lunatic has

00:58:11.360 been removed

00:58:12.200 from office

00:58:12.600 and killed.

00:58:13.660 Undoubtedly.

00:58:14.640 Yeah.

00:58:15.260 Saddam Hussein

00:58:15.800 was far

00:58:16.300 saner than

00:58:17.020 Gaddafi, but

00:58:18.340 he was even

00:58:19.080 more cruel

00:58:19.620 and brutal.

00:58:22.000 The overthrow

00:58:23.020 of his regime

00:58:23.960 has unleashed

00:58:25.420 hell for the

00:58:26.680 ordinary Iraqi

00:58:27.480 regardless of

00:58:29.200 religion or

00:58:29.840 ethnicity because

00:58:30.840 the country is

00:58:31.500 now absolutely

00:58:32.160 unlivable.

00:58:33.960 frankly, the

00:58:35.400 late Hafez

00:58:36.000 al-Assad, in

00:58:36.840 my view, was

00:58:37.260 a great man,

00:58:39.200 a great Arab

00:58:39.960 nationalist and

00:58:40.760 patriot and

00:58:42.620 a staunch

00:58:43.120 resistor of

00:58:43.840 Zionism.

00:58:45.220 And there was

00:58:46.000 much to commend

00:58:47.500 him and his

00:58:48.780 son is a far

00:58:49.680 more estimable

00:58:50.380 man than

00:58:50.900 either Saddam

00:58:51.560 Hussein or

00:58:52.480 Muammar al-Gaddafi.

00:58:54.560 And if the

00:58:55.720 regime in

00:58:56.820 Damascus is

00:58:57.720 eventually

00:58:58.180 overthrown at the

00:58:59.040 moment, it seems

00:58:59.720 to be doing

00:59:00.040 rather well in

00:59:00.760 this war against

00:59:01.480 the terrorists,

00:59:02.860 the life, the

00:59:04.380 lot of the

00:59:04.980 ordinary Syria

00:59:05.580 will be far

00:59:06.200 worse than it

00:59:06.860 is now.

00:59:08.580 But our

00:59:09.380 rulers in

00:59:10.020 their insanity

00:59:10.880 would like to

00:59:11.620 overthrow Bashar

00:59:12.500 al-Assad and

00:59:13.320 replace him

00:59:14.080 presumably with

00:59:15.500 I don't know

00:59:16.320 what.

00:59:18.020 It really is.

00:59:18.800 Some religious

00:59:19.620 maniac.

00:59:20.720 Yes.

00:59:21.600 I think it's

00:59:22.100 almost worse than

00:59:23.140 how you're

00:59:23.880 describing it.

00:59:24.600 Because it is

00:59:25.560 almost as if

00:59:26.520 Washington and

00:59:27.940 its allies or

00:59:29.200 vassals are

00:59:30.540 going after the

00:59:31.460 most civilized

00:59:32.340 people in the

00:59:33.000 region.

00:59:33.480 I mean, at

00:59:33.800 the end of

00:59:34.160 the day, Iran,

00:59:35.660 I agree, I

00:59:36.640 would prefer not

00:59:38.160 to live under

00:59:38.800 any kind of

00:59:39.500 theocracy.

00:59:40.800 And certainly

00:59:41.980 I would not

00:59:42.500 want to live

00:59:43.000 under a

00:59:45.000 state that

00:59:46.480 is at least

00:59:47.120 somewhat controlled

00:59:47.940 by religious

00:59:49.640 people.

00:59:50.280 But nevertheless,

00:59:51.460 I mean, Iran,

00:59:52.640 again, if you

00:59:53.440 go see images

00:59:54.540 of Tehran,

00:59:55.540 it's easily

00:59:56.520 the most,

00:59:57.000 it's far

00:59:57.600 more European,

00:59:59.700 so to speak,

01:00:00.260 civilized than

01:00:01.100 anything.

01:00:01.680 It's Saudi

01:00:02.080 Arabia or

01:00:02.920 beloved allies.

01:00:05.000 That partly

01:00:05.420 reflects upon

01:00:06.100 the people.

01:00:06.840 The Iranians,

01:00:07.660 again, are

01:00:09.460 people

01:00:10.880 linguistically

01:00:12.060 and culturally

01:00:12.720 much more

01:00:13.320 akin to us

01:00:14.220 than the

01:00:14.580 Arabs.

01:00:14.780 Iran actually

01:00:15.600 means Aryan.

01:00:17.280 Some people

01:00:17.600 forget that.

01:00:18.300 The language

01:00:18.760 is an

01:00:19.060 Indo-European

01:00:19.800 language.

01:00:20.640 The people

01:00:21.020 are culturally

01:00:21.540 closer to us.

01:00:23.440 But Washington

01:00:24.100 wants to

01:00:24.900 promote,

01:00:26.220 it wanted to

01:00:26.860 promote the

01:00:27.280 Arab Spring.

01:00:28.600 I don't want

01:00:29.700 to exactly

01:00:30.580 go to there

01:00:31.460 in the

01:00:31.960 conspiracy

01:00:32.760 theory about

01:00:33.600 ISIS,

01:00:34.140 but at the

01:00:34.800 same time,

01:00:35.220 I have no

01:00:36.260 doubt that

01:00:37.240 all of this

01:00:37.980 funding of

01:00:39.020 moderate rebels,

01:00:40.520 which was

01:00:40.960 this buzzword

01:00:42.600 for a while,

01:00:43.800 has basically,

01:00:45.020 all of this

01:00:45.760 stuff has

01:00:46.280 probably ended

01:00:47.080 up in the

01:00:47.420 hands of

01:00:47.760 ISIS.

01:00:48.740 It's like

01:00:49.300 that's what

01:00:50.260 Washington is

01:00:51.160 pursuing.

01:00:52.160 They're all

01:00:53.540 deady moderate

01:00:54.260 rebels,

01:00:55.120 except in a

01:00:56.200 relative sense.

01:00:57.020 For example,

01:00:57.780 Al-Qaeda and

01:00:59.000 the Taliban

01:00:59.660 have condemned

01:01:01.420 ISIL for

01:01:02.740 being too

01:01:03.120 extreme.

01:01:04.400 However bad

01:01:05.220 you are,

01:01:05.540 there's always

01:01:05.900 someone more

01:01:06.360 extreme.

01:01:06.820 My favourite

01:01:07.340 example was

01:01:08.420 the Peruvian

01:01:09.300 guerrilla group,

01:01:10.240 the Sendero

01:01:10.940 Luminoso,

01:01:11.880 a shining

01:01:12.340 path.

01:01:13.440 They first

01:01:13.940 proclaimed

01:01:14.440 themselves to

01:01:15.220 be Maoists,

01:01:16.180 but the

01:01:16.400 Chinese government

01:01:17.100 repudiated them

01:01:18.020 because they

01:01:18.240 were so crazy

01:01:19.040 that the

01:01:19.280 Chinese

01:01:19.440 didn't have

01:01:19.620 anything to

01:01:20.080 do with them.

01:01:20.580 So Sendero

01:01:21.940 then decided

01:01:22.840 they would

01:01:23.180 embrace

01:01:24.140 Pol Pot's

01:01:25.380 version of

01:01:26.580 Marxism-Leninism.

01:01:28.080 But wait for

01:01:28.680 it,

01:01:29.400 Pol Pot condemned

01:01:30.340 them because

01:01:30.920 they were too

01:01:31.460 cruel.

01:01:32.460 I'm not

01:01:33.120 joking.

01:01:35.040 So however

01:01:35.840 insane you

01:01:36.880 are,

01:01:37.500 there's someone

01:01:38.120 worse.

01:01:39.800 Now,

01:01:40.480 if you're

01:01:41.020 taking ISIS...

01:01:42.580 Let me jump

01:01:44.200 in real quick.

01:01:44.920 Keep in mind

01:01:45.620 that Richard

01:01:46.400 Spencer was

01:01:47.240 imprisoned by

01:01:48.520 the notorious

01:01:49.400 fascist

01:01:50.360 Victor

01:01:50.920 Orban.

01:01:52.540 He's that

01:01:53.520 bad.

01:01:54.580 He's that

01:01:54.980 bad.

01:01:55.280 It's that

01:01:55.580 ironic.

01:01:56.060 But if

01:01:56.840 you take

01:01:57.360 ISIL as

01:01:59.180 the paradigm

01:01:59.920 of extremism,

01:02:01.960 compared to

01:02:02.940 them,

01:02:04.200 slightly less

01:02:05.140 crazy

01:02:05.640 fundamentalist

01:02:06.440 groups appear

01:02:07.100 relatively

01:02:07.660 sane.

01:02:08.780 But this

01:02:09.160 is like

01:02:09.460 saying that

01:02:09.980 Stalin was

01:02:10.740 sane compared

01:02:11.580 to Trotsky

01:02:12.340 and Trotsky

01:02:12.900 was saying

01:02:13.360 compared to

01:02:14.160 the anarchists.

01:02:14.980 These things

01:02:15.620 are very,

01:02:16.240 very relative.

01:02:17.200 Which is

01:02:18.380 true.

01:02:19.400 Yeah,

01:02:19.600 I say,

01:02:20.040 compared to

01:02:20.620 the Sendero

01:02:21.120 Luminoso,

01:02:22.100 Pol Pot,

01:02:22.680 the Cambodian

01:02:23.340 Revolution were

01:02:24.100 relatively sane.

01:02:26.780 They were

01:02:27.220 moderate mass

01:02:29.560 murderers.

01:02:29.700 Very relative.

01:02:31.740 Yeah,

01:02:31.940 yeah,

01:02:32.100 yeah.

01:02:33.240 We need to

01:02:34.500 get this in

01:02:35.020 perspective.

01:02:35.640 There are no

01:02:36.480 moderate rebels.

01:02:37.660 There's no

01:02:38.320 one in Syria

01:02:39.660 who wants

01:02:40.840 to create a

01:02:41.900 British or

01:02:42.480 American-style

01:02:43.440 liberal democracy

01:02:44.600 or who

01:02:45.200 believes in

01:02:46.160 multicultural,

01:02:47.200 liberalism,

01:02:48.320 who believes

01:02:49.180 in universal

01:02:49.980 tolerance and

01:02:51.100 so on.

01:02:53.280 This is just

01:02:54.480 nonsense.

01:02:56.380 What would

01:02:57.420 replace the

01:02:58.880 regime of

01:02:59.540 Bashar al-Assad

01:03:00.560 were it ever

01:03:01.180 to fall would

01:03:02.340 be some kind

01:03:03.080 of theocratic

01:03:03.900 state in

01:03:05.200 which Christians,

01:03:07.560 non-Sunni

01:03:08.580 Muslims,

01:03:09.360 and indeed

01:03:09.980 Jews would

01:03:10.680 be hideously

01:03:11.280 oppressed.

01:03:13.000 All which

01:03:13.940 groups are

01:03:14.480 much better off

01:03:15.260 under the

01:03:15.660 present government

01:03:16.420 than they

01:03:17.220 would be

01:03:17.780 under a

01:03:18.340 religious

01:03:18.660 totalitarian

01:03:19.680 state.

01:03:20.940 That's not

01:03:21.480 to say the

01:03:21.800 present government

01:03:22.280 is perfect

01:03:23.020 or that it

01:03:23.960 hasn't done

01:03:24.540 things in the

01:03:25.460 past which

01:03:26.120 were manifestly

01:03:27.400 wrong and

01:03:28.220 so on.

01:03:29.320 But I

01:03:29.920 admit it to

01:03:30.900 say that

01:03:31.940 whatever its

01:03:32.500 faults,

01:03:33.020 whatever its

01:03:33.520 past errors,

01:03:35.080 it presides

01:03:36.540 over a

01:03:38.440 system that

01:03:39.260 is relatively

01:03:40.540 tolerant of a

01:03:41.920 plurality of

01:03:42.700 religious beliefs

01:03:43.960 and relatively

01:03:44.980 westernised and

01:03:47.220 better than any

01:03:48.700 likely replacement.

01:03:50.960 Our governments,

01:03:52.060 the British,

01:03:52.680 the French,

01:03:53.180 and above all

01:03:53.640 the American,

01:03:54.360 have destroyed

01:03:55.500 relatively stable,

01:03:58.300 relatively westernised,

01:04:00.440 relatively sensible

01:04:01.780 regimes in some

01:04:03.460 parts of the

01:04:03.940 Middle East.

01:04:05.040 Furthermore,

01:04:05.640 they only pay

01:04:06.120 lip service to

01:04:07.100 their supposed

01:04:07.660 beliefs in

01:04:08.360 democracy.

01:04:09.940 Anyhow,

01:04:10.620 for example,

01:04:11.800 the American

01:04:12.320 government has

01:04:13.640 not only

01:04:14.700 tolerated but

01:04:15.840 has funded and

01:04:16.700 supported the

01:04:17.500 overthrow of

01:04:18.140 democracy in

01:04:18.980 Egypt by

01:04:19.640 General Sisi,

01:04:20.980 who overthrew

01:04:21.580 the democratically

01:04:22.380 elected regime

01:04:24.280 of the Muslim

01:04:24.880 Brotherhood and

01:04:25.660 created a military

01:04:26.660 dictatorship led

01:04:27.840 by himself.

01:04:29.340 My view on

01:04:30.060 that is that

01:04:30.560 General Sisi is

01:04:31.660 a far, far

01:04:32.300 better ruler than

01:04:33.520 the man who

01:04:34.500 he replaced.

01:04:35.260 And if I were

01:04:35.680 Egyptian, I'd be

01:04:36.300 a strong support

01:04:37.040 of General Sisi.

01:04:37.940 But you

01:04:40.000 cannot pretend

01:04:40.720 to be a

01:04:41.480 Democrat and

01:04:42.300 support a

01:04:42.840 military coup

01:04:43.820 against the

01:04:44.720 elected government

01:04:46.000 of the country

01:04:46.720 simply because you

01:04:47.320 don't like the

01:04:48.200 answer the people

01:04:48.980 gave when you

01:04:50.000 held an election.

01:04:51.540 But that is

01:04:52.240 actually the kind

01:04:52.840 of person who

01:04:54.000 governs us.

01:04:55.020 I need to dwell

01:04:56.380 upon the support

01:04:57.280 of the British,

01:04:58.160 the Americans,

01:04:59.020 and others for

01:05:00.960 the Saudi regime

01:05:02.700 or for various

01:05:05.500 regimes in the

01:05:06.760 Gulf States.

01:05:07.940 many of which

01:05:09.160 have a minority

01:05:10.100 sectarian base

01:05:12.060 and are in

01:05:13.520 effect royal

01:05:14.480 dictatorships where

01:05:16.740 dissent is

01:05:17.760 punished with

01:05:19.080 considerable

01:05:19.660 cruelty.

01:05:20.480 Although in

01:05:20.980 fairness, unlike

01:05:21.940 Saudi Arabia,

01:05:22.940 a few of the

01:05:23.380 other Gulf states

01:05:24.120 use crucifixion as

01:05:25.320 an ordinary

01:05:25.720 method of

01:05:26.260 punishment, I

01:05:26.920 suppose.

01:05:27.780 They're

01:05:28.260 relatively

01:05:29.560 moderate.

01:05:30.460 That's one way

01:05:31.280 of looking at it.

01:05:31.940 how often do

01:05:34.480 you hear an

01:05:35.200 American or a

01:05:36.320 British politician

01:05:37.260 talking about the

01:05:39.740 methods that are

01:05:40.400 used in Saudi

01:05:41.120 Arabia to repress

01:05:43.060 political or

01:05:43.820 religious dissent?

01:05:44.760 not often.

01:05:47.620 Money talks.

01:05:49.160 Money talks.

01:05:51.260 So our rulers are

01:05:52.020 hypocrites as well

01:05:53.520 as vandals.

01:05:55.440 And many of the

01:05:56.700 dreadful things that

01:05:57.560 we see happening

01:05:58.560 now are the

01:06:00.060 result of the

01:06:00.600 second Iraq war,

01:06:01.420 which destabilized

01:06:02.240 the whole region.

01:06:03.520 They have no

01:06:04.900 understanding of

01:06:08.620 the different

01:06:09.880 sensitivities,

01:06:12.140 cultural,

01:06:13.040 religious,

01:06:13.880 ethnic,

01:06:14.420 linguistic of

01:06:16.240 the Middle

01:06:16.580 East, which

01:06:16.980 are enormously

01:06:17.740 complex and

01:06:18.840 require a lifetime

01:06:19.760 study to begin

01:06:20.740 to understand.

01:06:22.600 And they

01:06:23.040 blunder about

01:06:24.000 there as if

01:06:26.240 you can rule

01:06:26.720 Iraq in the

01:06:27.340 way you can

01:06:27.760 rule Iowa.

01:06:28.620 It doesn't

01:06:29.160 work that way.

01:06:31.040 It just

01:06:31.420 doesn't.

01:06:32.820 The worst

01:06:33.240 part of it

01:06:33.900 is that

01:06:36.180 everyone who

01:06:37.580 knew anything

01:06:38.020 about this

01:06:38.980 in the

01:06:40.400 State Department

01:06:41.260 and the

01:06:41.900 CIA and

01:06:42.500 elsewhere

01:06:42.940 was just

01:06:44.880 ignored

01:06:45.320 by

01:06:47.920 George Bush

01:06:49.680 when he

01:06:49.960 decided to

01:06:50.620 launch the

01:06:52.440 war to

01:06:53.260 turn Iraq

01:06:54.720 into a

01:06:55.160 Western liberal

01:06:55.740 democracy.

01:06:58.080 We now see

01:06:59.060 the consequences

01:06:59.720 of it and

01:07:00.380 the terrible

01:07:00.740 things that

01:07:01.120 happened in

01:07:01.500 Paris in a

01:07:02.160 way one of

01:07:02.660 the spin-offs

01:07:03.300 of that.

01:07:06.520 Yeah.

01:07:06.880 I mean,

01:07:07.480 do you think

01:07:08.040 there are

01:07:08.960 people in

01:07:09.960 Washington and

01:07:11.340 Foggy Bottom

01:07:12.240 or in the

01:07:14.040 Defense or

01:07:14.560 State Departments

01:07:15.340 that in a

01:07:17.040 way want

01:07:17.960 this kind of

01:07:18.660 chaos?

01:07:20.120 No, I

01:07:20.480 think on the

01:07:21.480 contrary.

01:07:22.000 I think the

01:07:22.280 people in the

01:07:23.440 State Department

01:07:24.140 and the

01:07:24.540 agency didn't

01:07:26.140 want this

01:07:26.640 kind of chaos

01:07:27.380 and gave good

01:07:28.000 advice which was

01:07:28.780 ignored because

01:07:29.520 of the kind

01:07:30.020 of people who

01:07:30.640 have political

01:07:31.180 purchase in

01:07:32.080 Washington.

01:07:32.480 It was

01:07:34.820 more the

01:07:35.580 advocates of

01:07:36.620 regime change

01:07:37.880 and the new

01:07:38.480 millennium that

01:07:39.660 you need to be

01:07:40.340 concerned about

01:07:41.260 than the

01:07:42.140 traditional,

01:07:44.280 if you like,

01:07:45.980 experts on

01:07:47.620 foreign policy.

01:07:48.800 Their expertise

01:07:49.480 was largely

01:07:50.160 ignored.

01:07:52.200 I wouldn't

01:07:53.400 be subscribing

01:07:54.180 to conspiracy

01:07:55.000 theories that

01:07:55.960 blame some of,

01:07:56.800 if you like,

01:07:57.120 the more

01:07:57.420 traditional organs

01:07:58.360 of the American

01:07:59.040 state for what's

01:07:59.840 happened.

01:08:00.040 I think on

01:08:00.360 the contrary,

01:08:01.060 they gave good

01:08:01.680 advice against

01:08:02.560 it and they

01:08:03.000 were ignored.

01:08:04.920 It really is a

01:08:06.960 neoconservative,

01:08:07.900 we all know what

01:08:08.740 that's a euphemism

01:08:09.740 for, a neoconservative

01:08:12.980 political project

01:08:14.260 to which fools

01:08:15.280 subscribed.

01:08:17.080 So you think

01:08:17.760 there's a kind

01:08:18.960 of Israeli

01:08:19.820 Zionist interest

01:08:20.840 that wants

01:08:21.940 these, wants

01:08:23.500 some kind of,

01:08:24.280 wants either

01:08:24.800 chaos or some

01:08:26.000 kind of terrible

01:08:27.840 theocratic

01:08:29.640 government.

01:08:30.600 It would be

01:08:30.980 simplistic, I

01:08:31.760 think it would

01:08:32.040 be simplistic

01:08:32.660 and reductionist

01:08:33.460 to explain

01:08:33.900 things in that

01:08:34.480 way.

01:08:34.880 There is a

01:08:35.540 danger in

01:08:36.700 going down

01:08:37.280 that road

01:08:38.100 in which

01:08:38.640 everything is

01:08:39.620 explained by

01:08:40.360 some kind of

01:08:41.020 overarching Zionist

01:08:42.120 conspiracy.

01:08:42.860 I think that

01:08:43.560 politics and

01:08:44.320 history are much

01:08:44.900 more complicated

01:08:45.560 than that.

01:08:47.120 I think a

01:08:48.080 further element,

01:08:49.700 although that

01:08:50.360 is an element,

01:08:52.120 and certainly

01:08:52.740 I think it was

01:08:53.380 a powerful

01:08:55.020 factor in

01:08:55.620 attempting to

01:08:56.160 overthrow both

01:08:56.980 the Saddam Hussein

01:08:57.860 regime in

01:08:58.420 Iraq and

01:08:59.040 the Assad

01:08:59.700 regime in

01:09:00.800 Syria, father

01:09:01.600 and son,

01:09:03.220 eased that

01:09:03.960 Zionist agenda.

01:09:05.040 These were

01:09:05.400 states that

01:09:06.040 were leading

01:09:06.480 the struggle

01:09:07.000 against Israel,

01:09:08.200 the Arab

01:09:08.600 nationalist

01:09:09.160 polities that

01:09:10.280 were opposed

01:09:10.980 to Zionism.

01:09:12.680 But there are

01:09:13.320 other factors,

01:09:14.040 one of which

01:09:14.460 is the

01:09:14.820 millenarian

01:09:15.540 and messianic

01:09:16.620 idea that the

01:09:17.320 whole world

01:09:17.980 can be remade

01:09:19.320 in the shape

01:09:20.100 of America.

01:09:22.200 Now that

01:09:22.760 is a

01:09:24.760 doctrine to

01:09:25.380 which a

01:09:25.640 great many

01:09:26.120 people have

01:09:27.000 subscribed

01:09:27.840 in influential

01:09:30.020 circles in

01:09:30.920 the United

01:09:31.300 States, and

01:09:32.060 it has done

01:09:32.560 more harm

01:09:33.240 than anything

01:09:33.760 else in my

01:09:34.820 view.

01:09:35.040 Now undoubtedly

01:09:35.600 there is a

01:09:36.100 large overlap

01:09:37.080 between that

01:09:37.880 and the

01:09:38.200 Zionist lobby,

01:09:39.760 but it

01:09:40.120 would be

01:09:40.940 too, I

01:09:41.900 think,

01:09:42.240 too simplistic,

01:09:43.360 too reductionist

01:09:44.140 simply to say

01:09:44.880 this is all

01:09:46.100 a gigantic

01:09:47.080 Zionist

01:09:47.620 conspiracy.

01:09:48.880 That is

01:09:49.820 much, much

01:09:50.880 more complex

01:09:51.780 than that.

01:09:52.780 Yeah, I

01:09:54.460 mean, I'm

01:09:55.020 sure there

01:09:55.580 are people

01:09:56.020 in Israel

01:09:56.580 and, you

01:09:57.840 know, if

01:09:58.120 I were to

01:09:59.180 conceive of

01:10:00.060 an Israeli

01:10:01.700 foreign policy,

01:10:03.260 I would be

01:10:03.820 supporting

01:10:04.460 Assad's

01:10:05.160 regime in

01:10:05.740 Syria.

01:10:06.580 You know,

01:10:07.520 he's stable,

01:10:08.720 he's a

01:10:09.020 civilized man,

01:10:09.800 even if you

01:10:10.280 disagree with

01:10:10.820 him, you

01:10:11.080 could at

01:10:11.340 least deal

01:10:12.040 with him.

01:10:12.420 He's sane

01:10:13.420 and he's

01:10:14.020 likely to keep

01:10:14.680 his word.

01:10:15.540 Those are

01:10:15.960 two big

01:10:16.380 factors and

01:10:17.320 anything that

01:10:17.860 comes after

01:10:18.380 him won't

01:10:19.300 be.

01:10:19.680 But so

01:10:21.060 far as

01:10:21.400 Israel is

01:10:21.840 concerned,

01:10:22.360 I have no

01:10:23.140 particular

01:10:23.760 interest in

01:10:24.720 that country.

01:10:26.240 It pursues

01:10:26.920 its own

01:10:27.500 policies.

01:10:28.360 I don't

01:10:28.740 think that

01:10:29.680 the line

01:10:30.180 that it

01:10:30.400 pursues is

01:10:30.940 necessarily

01:10:31.320 in its

01:10:31.600 own long

01:10:32.100 term

01:10:32.460 interests.

01:10:34.120 It seems

01:10:34.920 unable to

01:10:35.720 make a

01:10:36.100 lasting peace

01:10:36.920 with its

01:10:37.240 neighbours,

01:10:37.760 which cannot

01:10:38.140 be in

01:10:38.800 its own

01:10:39.220 long term

01:10:39.940 interests.

01:10:41.820 I don't

01:10:42.500 think, as I

01:10:43.040 say, that

01:10:43.620 everything that

01:10:44.580 happens in

01:10:45.360 American politics

01:10:46.440 can be

01:10:46.780 explained by

01:10:47.280 the machinations

01:10:47.980 of the Zionist

01:10:48.640 lobby.

01:10:49.680 Nevertheless,

01:10:50.740 it would

01:10:51.420 be both

01:10:52.120 dishonest and

01:10:52.960 cowardly to

01:10:53.700 pretend that

01:10:54.380 that lobby

01:10:54.860 does not

01:10:55.260 exercise a

01:10:56.040 disproportionate

01:10:56.980 influence upon

01:10:57.900 American foreign

01:10:58.820 policy and

01:11:00.940 directs that

01:11:01.640 foreign policy

01:11:02.240 in the

01:11:02.480 direction which

01:11:03.420 is the

01:11:03.900 interests or

01:11:04.800 perceived

01:11:05.380 interests,

01:11:05.980 often wrongly

01:11:06.660 perceived

01:11:06.960 interests,

01:11:07.460 in the

01:11:07.620 state of

01:11:07.940 Israel,

01:11:08.740 rather than

01:11:09.180 the United

01:11:09.440 States of

01:11:09.960 America.

01:11:10.640 That is a

01:11:11.160 particularly

01:11:11.820 American

01:11:12.540 problem and

01:11:15.840 one that the

01:11:16.360 American people

01:11:17.000 are going to

01:11:17.440 have to solve,

01:11:18.440 the influence

01:11:19.380 of that

01:11:19.760 lobby on

01:11:20.620 American foreign

01:11:21.500 policies plainly

01:11:23.260 contrary to the

01:11:24.000 American national

01:11:24.800 interest and

01:11:25.420 needs to be

01:11:25.960 broken, although

01:11:26.760 that will not

01:11:27.260 be an easy

01:11:27.780 thing to do

01:11:28.680 because it has

01:11:29.760 bought so many

01:11:30.880 American politicians

01:11:32.020 with campaign

01:11:33.000 donations and

01:11:35.040 other associated

01:11:36.260 bribes.

01:11:37.000 countries, but

01:11:37.900 that is not

01:11:38.820 the only

01:11:39.640 factor.

01:11:40.820 It feeds

01:11:42.400 into and

01:11:43.240 links up well

01:11:44.180 with the

01:11:45.580 messianic view

01:11:46.580 that Western

01:11:47.560 liberal democratic

01:11:48.960 values and

01:11:50.840 institutions can

01:11:51.960 be exported to

01:11:52.880 other countries.

01:11:53.880 Oh, no,

01:11:54.980 they can't.

01:11:56.680 They only evolved

01:11:57.660 in England very

01:11:58.540 slowly over many

01:11:59.740 centuries.

01:12:01.240 They were taken

01:12:02.140 to North America

01:12:03.520 by the

01:12:04.340 colonists, where

01:12:05.580 they then

01:12:06.280 developed, but

01:12:08.580 really as a

01:12:09.160 continuum of

01:12:10.360 institutions and

01:12:11.220 ideas they

01:12:11.700 brought over

01:12:12.260 with them from

01:12:12.960 England, where

01:12:14.400 they had

01:12:14.640 evolved over

01:12:15.380 long, long

01:12:16.480 centuries.

01:12:17.240 You cannot

01:12:18.300 suddenly transform

01:12:20.360 a tribal,

01:12:22.300 religiously

01:12:23.080 based, sectarian

01:12:24.560 society, which

01:12:26.780 is what most

01:12:27.320 Arab societies

01:12:28.060 are, into a

01:12:30.080 British or

01:12:31.220 American society

01:12:32.960 because our

01:12:33.700 Arab societies

01:12:34.580 only evolved in

01:12:36.740 that direction

01:12:37.660 over a very,

01:12:39.260 very long

01:12:39.780 period of time,

01:12:41.660 not without

01:12:42.840 terrible internal

01:12:43.940 convulsions of

01:12:45.680 their own in

01:12:46.500 past centuries.

01:12:48.620 So the idea

01:12:50.740 that things

01:12:51.600 which happened

01:12:52.200 in England

01:12:52.760 over hundreds

01:12:53.560 and hundreds

01:12:54.060 of years can

01:12:55.820 be replicated

01:12:56.520 in the Arab

01:12:57.120 state in a

01:12:57.720 few years is

01:12:59.500 just madness.

01:13:01.960 No sensible

01:13:03.280 person can

01:13:03.920 believe that.

01:13:04.580 Apparently,

01:13:04.980 most of our

01:13:05.500 rulers do.

01:13:07.080 I think,

01:13:08.460 sadly, a lot

01:13:09.280 of these

01:13:09.540 illusions will

01:13:10.260 have to be

01:13:10.940 shattered by

01:13:12.440 chaos and

01:13:14.120 blood because

01:13:15.780 I don't think

01:13:16.580 we're going to

01:13:16.940 convince them

01:13:17.880 through reason.

01:13:21.560 One of the

01:13:21.860 things I've

01:13:22.340 learned as I've

01:13:22.980 got older is

01:13:25.420 that what

01:13:26.480 Lenin called

01:13:27.700 objective factors

01:13:29.280 are very,

01:13:31.980 very important.

01:13:33.320 Of course,

01:13:33.540 nobody's a fool

01:13:34.320 could think that

01:13:35.060 they're unimportant,

01:13:35.980 but what I'm

01:13:36.520 meaning is that

01:13:38.680 other factors

01:13:40.700 such as

01:13:41.840 ideology,

01:13:43.080 correct analysis

01:13:45.580 and so on

01:13:47.120 are perhaps

01:13:49.100 less powerful

01:13:50.600 than we think

01:13:51.580 that it

01:13:52.180 sometimes takes

01:13:53.380 really brutal

01:13:54.620 external facts

01:13:56.360 to impinge

01:13:57.620 upon your

01:13:58.620 little closed

01:14:00.140 bubble world

01:14:01.100 before you

01:14:01.680 realize how

01:14:02.580 things are.

01:14:04.540 Now,

01:14:04.900 coming back to

01:14:05.680 where we

01:14:06.060 began,

01:14:07.360 some of those

01:14:08.440 very cold,

01:14:10.820 harsh realities

01:14:12.100 are coming

01:14:12.920 home to an

01:14:13.460 awful lot of

01:14:14.020 European people

01:14:14.900 now.

01:14:16.060 One of the

01:14:16.760 things which

01:14:17.180 is going to

01:14:17.580 come home to

01:14:18.420 them is that

01:14:19.840 their feeble,

01:14:22.880 incompetent,

01:14:24.040 yet at the

01:14:24.700 same time

01:14:25.440 paranoid and

01:14:26.600 tyrannical rulers

01:14:27.840 are unable to

01:14:29.700 protect them

01:14:30.500 from the

01:14:30.920 consequences of

01:14:32.420 the nightmare

01:14:33.120 that they have

01:14:34.100 unleashed upon

01:14:34.920 most of the

01:14:35.460 continent.

01:14:35.880 that is

01:14:37.340 going to be

01:14:37.740 very good

01:14:38.480 for the

01:14:38.820 souls of

01:14:39.400 the people

01:14:39.800 of Europe.

01:14:40.420 They will

01:14:40.620 have to

01:14:40.900 think about

01:14:41.420 that and

01:14:42.060 come to

01:14:42.360 appropriate

01:14:42.820 conclusions.

01:14:45.420 Well,

01:14:45.540 let's leave

01:14:46.460 it at that,

01:14:47.140 Adrian.

01:14:47.440 I can't think

01:14:48.020 of a better

01:14:48.520 conclusion.

01:14:50.060 So we'll put

01:14:50.780 a bookmark in

01:14:51.360 it, but

01:14:51.640 thank you,

01:14:52.460 Adrian.

01:14:53.520 It's always

01:14:54.160 good to talk

01:14:55.720 to you and

01:14:56.120 it's always

01:14:56.540 fun to have

01:14:57.060 you on my

01:14:57.580 podcast.

01:14:58.300 It's always

01:14:59.320 good to speak

01:14:59.840 to you.

01:15:00.260 I only wish

01:15:00.560 I'd be able

01:15:01.000 to attend

01:15:01.420 your conference

01:15:02.020 in Washington,

01:15:02.700 which I hear

01:15:03.120 is enormously

01:15:03.600 successful.

01:15:04.180 Unfortunately,

01:15:05.100 October is

01:15:05.720 a very busy

01:15:06.860 and difficult

01:15:07.400 month for

01:15:08.480 lawyers in

01:15:09.100 England.

01:15:09.400 It's when our

01:15:09.720 court term

01:15:10.260 begins.

01:15:10.660 We do most

01:15:11.160 of a year's

01:15:11.620 work in one

01:15:12.320 month, as a

01:15:14.120 result of which

01:15:14.560 I wasn't able

01:15:15.040 to come over.

01:15:15.740 But I'm going

01:15:16.660 to try and

01:15:17.200 urge you to

01:15:18.820 do a conference

01:15:19.680 in some other

01:15:20.660 months than

01:15:21.340 that most

01:15:21.880 overloaded month

01:15:22.980 for American

01:15:23.640 patriotic

01:15:24.320 conferences.

01:15:25.360 But I'll tell

01:15:25.880 you that.

01:15:26.560 Well, Adrian,

01:15:27.220 I'm sick of

01:15:28.180 hearing this

01:15:28.680 excuse every

01:15:29.640 year.

01:15:30.520 You're going

01:15:30.700 to have to get

01:15:31.980 your priorities

01:15:32.600 straight.

01:15:33.020 It's true,

01:15:34.500 I'm afraid.

01:15:35.080 What we're

01:15:35.560 going to have

01:15:35.880 to do is

01:15:37.700 to hold it

01:15:38.160 a little bit

01:15:38.560 earlier in

01:15:39.100 the year,

01:15:39.580 say September,

01:15:40.460 and I'd

01:15:40.660 be absolutely

01:15:41.180 delighted to

01:15:41.780 come over to

01:15:42.260 Washington and

01:15:42.940 join you there.

01:15:43.580 That would be

01:15:43.920 absolutely

01:15:44.300 marvellous.

01:15:45.000 I hope it was

01:15:45.480 a great success

01:15:46.200 and everyone

01:15:46.640 who attended

01:15:47.240 it very much

01:15:49.660 enjoyed it.

01:15:51.080 I need to be

01:15:51.460 congratulated on

01:15:52.240 organizing it.

01:15:53.240 Just push it

01:15:54.040 forward a few

01:15:54.760 weeks in the

01:15:55.340 year so we

01:15:55.780 don't have this

01:15:56.440 October conference

01:15:57.340 season.

01:15:57.900 Every patriotic

01:15:58.720 group has a

01:15:59.440 conference one

01:16:00.300 weekend after

01:16:01.240 another.

01:16:01.700 I'll look

01:16:03.280 forward to

01:16:03.720 seeing you

01:16:04.060 then.

01:16:04.500 I hope we

01:16:05.060 should be

01:16:05.240 able to

01:16:05.420 persuade you

01:16:05.720 to come

01:16:05.940 over to

01:16:06.260 England

01:16:06.500 before too

01:16:07.220 long.

01:16:08.100 I want to.

01:16:09.180 That is one

01:16:09.760 place in

01:16:10.260 Europe where

01:16:10.760 I can legally

01:16:11.560 enter.

01:16:13.240 Yes, yes,

01:16:14.620 yes, yes.

01:16:16.740 Well, as I

01:16:18.200 say, bearing

01:16:19.080 in mind that

01:16:20.240 Syrian terrorists

01:16:21.380 seem to be able

01:16:22.020 to cross borders

01:16:23.000 in Europe freely

01:16:24.040 despite not

01:16:24.760 being un-

01:16:25.240 censor it.

01:16:25.780 No, you

01:16:27.320 ought to be

01:16:27.740 able to do

01:16:28.280 it.

01:16:28.580 But then on

01:16:29.120 the other

01:16:29.460 hand, the

01:16:31.460 mass murderers

01:16:33.020 on the one

01:16:33.460 hand and

01:16:33.880 those who

01:16:34.260 express ideas

01:16:35.260 contrary to

01:16:36.200 the ideas of

01:16:37.340 European political

01:16:38.140 elites are

01:16:38.620 treated very

01:16:39.120 differently as

01:16:39.760 we all know.

01:16:40.920 We know where

01:16:41.780 the really

01:16:42.600 dangerous people

01:16:43.840 are.

01:16:44.240 you

RadixJournal - November 25, 2015

Heart of Darkness

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