IVF, Jeffrey Epstein, & Elite Human Capital
Episode Stats
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Summary
Richard Hanania joins me on the show to talk about why he's left the Democratic Party, why he voted for Donald Trump, and why he thinks there's no such thing as a "pro-choice" platform.
Transcript
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Got to look at this up a second, because I'll see the note of the A.
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And so we have a special guest, Richard Hanania.
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Let me share this on social media, because now I have a link within...
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For streaming on IVF, Epstein, and Liberal Zionists.
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A lot of people on Twitter are interested in RFH, so I have to...
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Well, Richard, first off, you seem to have fully switched sides at this point.
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You voted for Donald Trump, which is interesting, for understandable reasons.
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But this is, I guess, what I make of it, is that, first off, there are some policies that
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might very well bother you, the tariffs and so on.
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But my sense, and correct me if I'm wrong, is really about elite human capital in the sense
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that non-elite human capital is accumulating in MAGA.
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And even if it's not directly affecting policy, it will at some point.
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And at the very least, the MAGA media sphere is so embarrassing that it's difficult to want
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But the idea is, like, I've seen this for a while.
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I've seen what's going on with right-wing media.
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I see, you know, you look at the top podcasts in the country, news podcasts, New York Times,
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What's interesting between those categories is not one is more conservative.
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One believes in a lower marginal tax rate than the other, right?
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One category is, like, real news and where serious human beings gather to share information.
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And, you know, like, there's a kind of zombie Reaganism that is still there that I think
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has some good policy ideas that does good things at the state level, like make housing
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You know, at the same time, we're getting to a place where you, you know, it is infecting
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Like, I thought the MAHA thing, I thought Trump would toss RFK to the side after the election.
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We have, I just saw this morning, there's a MAHA conference where Vance is speaking.
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And he's like, well, you know, I don't like to take Tylenol.
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Sometimes my back will hurt, but there's no reason to take medicine when we don't need
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I mean, he's just like, it's just so overwhelming.
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This thing is just kind of swiping, you know, a tidal wave on the right.
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There's this human capital educational polarization, more than there is a right-left thing.
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And I don't know, like, in five, ten years, what policies, what are these people going
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What kind of crazy things will they believe in five, ten years?
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There's no Pope, there's no William F. Buckley here to kick the birchers out of it.
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You know, who's going to tell Tucker or Candace or Joe Rogan or their audience that they're
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So I'm just looking at kind of what's happened to the American right.
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And it needs to, you know, it needs to fix this.
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Maybe it needs to be politically destroyed and then something needs to emerge from the
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But I don't see much reason to be optimistic here.
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Yes, I feel like policymakers are responding to the online sphere and influencers and podcasters,
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et cetera, in a way that I don't think we've ever seen previously.
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I think we might have actually crossed a Rubicon for better and for worse.
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I think you would say that this is absolutely for the worst.
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There's a lot of pandering directly to the online right from official government accounts.
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The Department of Homeland Security and ICE and all that are the most dramatic.
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They're making like FASH wave BAP sphere edits circa 2017.
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But yeah, I think the Tylenol thing was an absolute disgrace, and I think it directly
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showed influence from those people towards policymakers.
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It seemed like obviously politicians always pander, but their pandering is different than
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I don't think you can look back on the 20th century and see the influence of grassroots
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people affecting politicians in the way that that's occurring now.
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So I think what you're getting at is very real, and I don't think we've seen the worst
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from the Maha crowd or the Tucker crowd or so on.
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I mean, is Trump going to investigate chemtrails?
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I mean, I think he almost has to if this trend is going to continue.
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There was the EPA administrator said that they were going to look into it, actually.
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The things that you think are going to happen soon have already happened.
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There's yeah, there was one after the Charlie Kirk assassination.
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Patel was on Twitter talking about basically like signaling to these like Kenneth Owens people
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who think TPUSA was in on it, basically saying, you know, we'll turn every rock and we'll see
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The Epstein thing, it's funny because they stepped on the rake with this one.
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It's the question is, who are they pandering to?
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They're pandering to, I don't know, some kind of community leader who has some kind of
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organic support or maybe like a trade group or some ethnic group or something.
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This is this is literally who leaves the most comments, who has the most likes and retweets.
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It's who gets dunked on by the biggest influencers who gets pushed around by them.
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There's never been just a direct line from what the people think to their elected representatives.
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It could have been both sides, but it's overwhelmingly.
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I mean, the left, you'll find some examples of this, but the right is kind of the people
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who are very online or less than regular people, while the left still has like scientists
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and like journalists that they actually listen to.
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Oh, the liberals are listening to NPR and the New York Times Daily podcast, which I listen
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You might listen to it if you're like a serious human being.
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You wouldn't listen to Tucker and get anthropological curiosity.
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No, I would hate listen or or listen to him ironically or to examine what he's doing as
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And so you have the the liberals who are sort of, you know, on the one hand and then on the
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And then you have Tucker chemtrails like it really is a stark divide.
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Because just thinking back, like the history of the alt right or the dissident right, we
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projected on to Trump like he was a screen and so many things could be projected upon him.
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Like a lot of fantasy was projected onto him like a screen with someone like J.D.
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He seems to desperately like try to repeat things he saw on Twitter.
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And he, you mentioned before we went on air, you mentioned Rob Dreher or Dreher, who I've
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known for 15 or 20 years or I've known of at the very least.
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And he's, he seems to like go, Rob Dreher seems to pick a new religion every about four
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You see a little bit of that with Vance as well, who changed religions.
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But also it's like, you know, he's a liberal millennial white Obama.
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And then he's like a, a, a mainstream neocon or he was a neocon first, I guess, with from
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Uh, then he's a mainstream neocon and then he's pro Trump and then he's the religious
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And then he's like a Twitter shit poster of some time.
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It, he doesn't really seem to have a core and whereas fantasies were projected onto
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It's almost like JD Vance is a fantasizer himself.
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Like he, he takes on a new meme or, or way of thinking every three or four months.
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We see Trump talking about, Oh, the Chinese students are great.
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I mean, he'll, he'll say stuff and they'll push back on him.
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You can't imagine like Vance has, you know, some of these people have really have had their
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Like I think when Vance was picked as the vice presidential nominee, like these kind of like
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red scare types, like I'm just nothing, just them, but like people of that type, people
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who have like, you know, this just like highly partisan worldview that they pretend to be
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like actually cool, but they're just kind of partisans.
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They see him as one of them because he thinks like that he's mind melted with them.
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Like if somebody, some Nazi, you know, some Nazi group chat comes out, Vance's first instinct
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What about is always ready to hit back, never acknowledging a point, always having this
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And so I think he is like, he's probably convinced himself like to be, you know, to be one of these
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people and like, you know, I don't know if he's like, you know, who knows?
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He could realize that it's his best interest to triangulate against what doesn't Tucker
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and try to be a precedent and maybe become a moderate guy.
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I think he's kind of a chameleon and he could change under those circumstances.
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Or maybe he's just kind of, his brain has been fossilized by like 2019, 2020 internet
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He's just going to be like this post-liberal based guy, regardless of what happens.
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But the, you know, the second scenario of him becoming kind of assimilated back into the
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And in that case, he's going to have a real, real problem with his right flank.
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So you mentioned Epstein a little bit back and I did want to bring him up.
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We were thinking about talking about IVF, but I'll let, let me go to something very different
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So we've had this shutdown and we now, Congress is back.
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The government is here to help us and it's back, but they have to, they released interesting
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emails that seem to indicate that Trump knew exactly what was going on.
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They also show Michael Wolfe, this famed journalist and fixer type, I guess, who has been podcasting
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about Epstein back for a year with Vanity Fair or something.
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I've, I've listened to a few of, a few of those that he was sort of helping out Epstein as a
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So there's just a lot of very interesting tidbits that are coming out.
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Now you, you're, you're sort of colleagues or friends at the very least with Michael Tracy.
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He has gone very hard against what he calls the Epstein mythos.
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And how would you represent what he's doing and, and, and maybe give us a sense of your
00:14:28.380
So I'm, I'm pretty much at the same place where Michael is on this.
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So his belief is that, okay, Jeffrey Epstein was a guy who made a lot of money and Michael
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doesn't take a position on how he make his, made his money because that's something people,
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He wasn't always carting, you know, them to see, make sure that they were over 18.
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He had some kinds of, you know, they gave him massages and so forth.
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And I think this is right, that there was trafficking in the sense that, you know, for
00:15:04.300
to put aside, like to get to spy on Israel or something in the sense that they were, they
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had sex with any men who were not Epstein through Epstein, people who were under 18,
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The, and so you can go into the claims of these women and it's, it's remarkable.
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Like some of them are like, you know, they stayed in contact with him for 10 years and
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Like one is Virginia Gufray, who was the big one, who is, I think the main person who says
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It's, she had to admit that basically that it didn't happen.
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So basically went to court, but didn't hold up.
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I think she was, I don't know if it's been confirmed.
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She was actually with Prince Andrew, but she was above the age of consent in the United
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And so there's really, once you strip away, once you take away these claims from these women
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who saw a lot of them had a real, real financial interest.
00:16:01.520
Like when this, when this thing came out, basically you could go to like whichever bank, JP Morgan
00:16:06.520
and be like, you dealt with a sex trafficker, right?
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They're all like, okay, here's a big pot of money, right?
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Let's like, you know, show your claim to be a victim.
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So there's a huge, there's a huge incentive in terms of financial interest for these women
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When you do dig into some of these claims, they fall apart.
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And basically like, this is, this is a pedo moral panic, like how few pedophiles there
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are in the world that like people like having sex with 17 year old girls is like something
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I don't, I think that these accusers, I think it's a moral panic.
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I think he might've had sexual contact with people under 18.
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And I think most of these, uh, supposed victims are, are cashing in.
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Well, Pam Bondi at one point at a press conference said that the reason why she can't release the
00:17:02.340
Epstein files is that she has, uh, I'm trying to do a Pam Bondi impression.
00:17:07.820
She, she's rather breathless and, and, um, you know, there, there are videos of Jeffrey
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Epstein abusing children, child porn, and we need to go through every minute of these
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before we release she, it was a very odd statement because it seemed to be conflating what was
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happening with something that is more obviously criminal, which are just actual pedophiles
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and child abusers and, and things like this, that that's sort of a open and shut case in
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I think they just, they, they like, you know, they don't have a high opinion of their mega
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audience, but even like their opinion might've been, um, they still, they still might've
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underestimated them because when Pam Bondi brings them in, brings in like Jack Vesovic and lives
00:18:00.700
Like anything she gives them, they'll be like, Whoa, thank you, ma'am.
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And like, even they could realize this was stuff that was already released.
00:18:08.600
She just thinks they're idiots that you're going to play to it.
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So like what Pam Bondi is saying of like different points of time, I just think she's probably
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not thinking too much about Epstein, like until it blew up into a thing.
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And then the thought she could just say whatever she wanted and whatever sounded good in the
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And then it kind of all blew up because these people really care about Epstein.
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I, and I don't think what she was claiming actually occurred, but it still is begging the
00:18:37.220
Is your position, which is a reasonable, plausible position that it was basically just wall street,
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It's not that different from a middle class or working class people going to Cancun and engaging
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There was, there was no, they're there or because it, it also like Michael Tracy has
00:19:05.700
brought some skepticism towards the idea that this was a child trafficking pedophile ring.
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And I think he makes some, some excellent points and pushback.
00:19:15.440
And I think a lot of people are afraid to push back because it's almost like you're endorsing
00:19:19.940
And so you just basically nod your head when, when any claim is made.
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And for me, that's the only question I'm interested in is what was it all about?
00:19:33.260
Was it just fun or because Tracy also seems to push back on an idea that it was a blackmail
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And there are all of these, these have been published in the New York times.
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So it must be true, but there, there are all these cameras in his, his New York home.
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Um, when some, one of the, some of the, I'm forgetting his name in the moment.
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One of the person first worked on this, they opened a closet and discovered hard drives and
00:20:07.360
I mean, a lot of people have cameras in their, in their home these days.
00:20:10.100
I mean, it's, it's a pretty common thing, especially if you're a rich person and you have
00:20:20.280
We have like many cams and stuff and there's, Oh, we're not talking about a name.
00:20:25.380
No, like you have a burglar, you have alarm system.
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You might, so someone might just steal your stuff.
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Like, it's not that crazy to have a camera, you know, in a bedroom.
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So you don't think it was a blackmail ring that, that is the,
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Like there's one where he's kind of sounds like he's trying to blackmail, um, uh, Bill
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Gates or there's an email where he's like, you know, I know about your girl, something
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Just something implying that he knows about his extramarital affair.
00:21:00.700
Uh, there's a few things that seem weird like that, but the thing that got people spun
00:21:05.680
up and like, this is a Zionist, you know, conspiracy to silence critics of Israel or blackmail
00:21:10.400
That all comes from like this one crazy woman, uh, Virginia Gufra.
00:21:14.020
And I think there's one or two others who are, you know, literally out of their minds.
00:21:17.120
And so, yeah, I don't know why you would, why you would think that like, what is there
00:21:21.140
when you take away the kind of claims of crazy women, what else is there?
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Well, I, I, what else is there is what exactly was going on.
00:21:31.560
Why is it that Alan Dershowitz and Bill Gates and Donald Trump and Steven Pinker are all going
00:21:36.820
Because he's a rich guy and like a rich guy says, come to my party and there are girls
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and like, you know, there's other famous people there.
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He had a lot of money and wanted to be a socialite.
00:21:52.340
Um, so I interviewed, uh, deep left who has a sub stack and, and I would encourage people
00:22:02.160
And he made a very interesting argument and, and I felt like it brought the puzzle pieces
00:22:10.080
together because that was one thing that I would often say about Epstein is, you know,
00:22:14.580
what is it, what exactly is going on, is going on here?
00:22:20.020
Um, you know, at one point he was interested in fertility, basically like a, uh, like a almost
00:22:28.560
Nazi eugenics program of like rich elite people impregnating all these, you know, women and
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Um, and he made a, a compelling case, which is that the people who were brought to the
00:22:55.460
And what he means by that is that they are certainly Zionist.
00:23:02.200
They, they support Israel at the end of the day.
00:23:04.540
However, they don't like the settlements in the West bank.
00:23:07.740
They don't, they wouldn't like the bombardment of Gaza.
00:23:11.100
They, they wouldn't like outright seizure of the West bank.
00:23:14.920
They're not the Likud greater Israel religious fanatic types.
00:23:20.280
And they actually see those people as harming the interest of Israel, which I think is a
00:23:27.500
quite more than plausible notion that basically you let Benjamin Netanyahu and his coalition
00:23:34.140
get their hands on power and they are going to make Israel look horrible.
00:23:39.120
They're going to create perhaps regional and nuclear war.
00:23:42.220
Um, they're going to destroy Israel ironically by being its greatest supporters.
00:23:46.420
And so what we actually need is a two state solution, removal of settlements in the West
00:23:56.820
So you, so you see like a hood Barack, um, Steven Pinker, I mentioned earlier.
00:24:04.220
I mean, is that someone Steven Pinker is known for, for being a liberal Zionist?
00:24:08.660
He's not known for being a liberal Zionist, but he is a liberal Zionist.
00:24:13.160
Well, everyone in the elites, if you just hung out with elites, you throw a rock, like most
00:24:17.020
of them will be liberal Zionists of one form or another.
00:24:19.280
I mean, that was like the position of the time.
00:24:24.580
So what, what he was suggesting is that the origin, the Epstein scandal and Trump's first
00:24:31.300
term was basically Likudites being like, Hey, why don't you look into a hood Barack, our
00:24:38.140
political adversary, um, and all this Epstein stuff.
00:24:42.260
And it's sort of blown up in their face in the sense that Trump was roped into all this.
00:24:47.180
And so it was basically a way of team building.
00:24:51.400
Like, do we have any evidence of someone being blackmailed by the Epstein ring?
00:24:58.460
I mean, maybe we wouldn't have evidence because it would all be done secretly, but it was more
00:25:04.720
It was like a wall street drug and sex party for these types of people to get everyone on
00:25:10.440
the same page so that they could pursue their perception of Israel's best interest.
00:25:24.760
Um, you know, it's a story you could, you could tell, um, is there evidence for it?
00:25:28.620
Well, what's the evidence that a lot of these people were liberal Zionists?
00:25:34.160
You were probably a liberal Zionist or someone who was, uh, in politics.
00:25:38.400
Uh, the idea that like, you need some explanation and like Netanyahu is like, go after, you know,
00:25:43.680
I don't think that's necessary because this all happened during me too.
00:25:46.940
And me too was just a case where we went through like every single man who'd ever had an accusation.
00:25:52.360
Basically, you know, Bill Cosby stuff that was decades old came up, you know, R Kelly, like there's, you know, uh, famous people, you know, Harvey Weinstein, a lot of people ended up in jail, uh, over this.
00:26:02.380
And so it was kind of natural that people would look at, uh, the Jeffrey Epstein case, which had been known and kind of been thought about and written about before.
00:26:09.720
And so there was this big piece in, uh, I think in the Miami newspaper in 2018, 2019, I don't think you need an explanation of like Trump said, you know, I think that Trump at the time also his health secretary was, um, Acosta, who was the guy who ended up getting blamed for giving Epstein the deal.
00:26:25.980
So like immediately there would be, uh, some political risk of Trump bringing this thing up.
00:26:30.860
And then Trump himself was always, you know, was always the closest person to Epstein of all these famous people that we, that we know of.
00:26:37.120
Um, and so like, it's a story, it's a fun story, but like, you know, there's other explanations for what's happened.
00:26:49.720
I mean, whether or not it's a black male and all these other sort of theories, I just, I think there's something sinister about very wealthy men.
00:27:00.860
I mean, bringing 17 year old girls to parties, even if it is above the age of consent.
00:27:06.980
So from a feminist point of view, I still do find it very scandalous.
00:27:12.680
I would not deny that Epstein is problematic from a feminist point of view.
00:27:25.760
Do you, do you think this might be the magic bullet that somehow ends the Trump presidency?
00:27:34.300
Well, precisely because of this, because he got away with grab them by the pussy stuff and, and all of that stuff is water well under the bridge.
00:27:44.860
The, the difference here is that it's a wild conspiracy theory that his own people love.
00:27:52.720
So when it's just like bad policies or bad behavior, his people can just be like, ah, they can shrug, who cares?
00:28:02.480
But when it's their own thing, when QAnon turns on Trump, that's when the dynamic changes and this actually brings him down.
00:28:17.320
It's like these emails that just got released today.
00:28:22.860
And there was one, you know, it was like one, uh, one, you couldn't even tell what the quote meant because it was so weird.
00:28:35.180
Of course he knew about the girls as he, as he asked Jelaine to stop.
00:28:40.140
As he asked Jelaine, like, we don't even know what the context of this is.
00:28:43.720
It's just like a sentence fragment that makes no sense, uh, in its own terms.
00:28:48.660
And then Republicans, I just saw that New York times headline.
00:28:51.820
They released their own, you know, their own thing.
00:28:54.240
So maybe there's like some snippet of like Bill Clinton, you know, whatever high-fiving or something like that.
00:28:59.080
And it's just kind of, it's like, it's such a stupid thing.
00:29:01.380
It's like, if I, like, we know that he was around these people, there's always going to be new stuff that comes out.
00:29:06.840
There's going to be emails mentioning Trump and maybe Bill Clinton and Bill Gates, uh, and so on.
00:29:11.960
The funniest, I think the funniest one, I don't know if anything will top the, uh, uh, the birthday letter.
00:29:16.740
Yeah, I was going to ask, what do you, what do you make of that weird letter?
00:29:20.960
Yeah, this one I disagreed with Tracy about because it was, he, he, he put like this like story where it's like, you know, age is just a number, Jeffrey.
00:29:31.300
You're an enigma, you're an enigma, you never, you never age.
00:29:36.700
It's like, you couldn't, if you thought there was an inside joke of them, like having sex with young girls, like that, that's what you would write.
00:29:47.700
You know, does that mean underaged girls, it doesn't imply that they were underage.
00:29:53.900
They probably liked, you know, ribbing each other and they liked 18 and 19 year old girls.
00:29:59.320
You know, he, he would say stuff about 13s and 14 year olds back on like Howard Stern in those days.
00:30:03.440
So does that mean that they had, you know, they had sexual relations with underage girls?
00:30:07.460
I don't know, but at least they were like, you know, the Trump thing is much closer to what these conspiracy tards think it is than any other person.
00:30:15.780
Like there's no, nothing of Bill Gates, like writing, you know, writing letters to Epstein saying, you know, we share the secret.
00:30:23.840
And so, yeah, I mean, they were Trump and him were, you know, buddies.
00:30:32.760
Like, is there going to be anything else released that gives us anything beyond that?
00:30:36.300
Anything connected to, like, look for something connected to intelligence, connected to Israel, connected to underage girls, connected to trafficking, connected to bribery.
00:30:47.740
Like, okay, like they're going through the files.
00:30:49.280
Like, give us whatever in there that's, that's, that's something beyond, you know, Trump and Epstein like underage girls, which we know and which we'll see more evidence for, I'm sure.
00:30:57.480
Yeah, I think the letter, because they're being so, like, they're implying a lot.
00:31:06.880
I think the implication is pretty clear that the girls are underage.
00:31:14.640
Otherwise, you're just going to kind of laugh like, ha ha, don't we love 19 year olds?
00:31:21.200
There's no reason to really hide that, especially when you're that wealthy and this is, like, 20 years ago or something.
00:31:28.880
The fear of the woman looked more like a girl as well than, you know, if I were to, when I heard the letter described, I imagined, you know, a curvaceous female form, hourglass.
00:31:39.700
But it sort of looked like a, not pre-pubescent, pubescent girl.
00:31:48.300
Now what you will, that could just be chalked up to.
00:31:56.920
I think maybe that's what Trump and Epstein were into.
00:32:00.440
Well, Trump is a kind of, like, secret gay man.
00:32:03.200
Like, he's a very sassy heterosexual, so he agrees with the gays and their female preferences, which is boyish.
00:32:14.100
It's kind of hard to imagine Trump, like, appreciating.
00:32:19.120
I'm not saying he doesn't have a sex drive or something like that, but it's, like, kind of hard to imagine him, like, appreciating a woman other than, like, I'm Donald Trump and, like, here's my supermodel wife.
00:32:28.740
Like, I just think it's the most, you know, just completely unable to connect to people at that level.
00:32:35.440
There's a scene in Maggie Haberman's biography of Trump where he was in Atlantic City and he got out of a limousine and he told all his friends, this is what a perfect 10 looks like.
00:32:49.800
And I do, yes, I do think he might very well be a psychopath who quite literally sees other human beings as objects.
00:33:22.600
I'm kind of a bull that goes after people stubborn.
00:33:47.060
I mean, there was some experiment where a psychology class, a person, the teacher gave them all note cards, and it had these very seemingly insightful, but very vague statements about their personality.
00:34:05.960
Like, you overcame a trauma in childhood and learned to appreciate the struggle.
00:34:17.980
And the teacher or the instructor said, oh, yeah, we had an astrologer come and do a reading of each of you.
00:34:26.000
And he came up with this little, you know, 50-word snippet.
00:34:39.880
And then the instructor said, please pass the note card to the person to your right.
00:34:46.000
So they all, like all hundred people got the exact same wording.
00:34:50.000
But if you can word it in a sort of vague way, you're like, yeah, I am a Gemini.
00:34:55.920
Well, let me really quick defend it in a way that will kind of appeal to both of you here.
00:35:02.240
Because you've had this take before, Richard Spencer.
00:35:09.340
That, you know, there needs to be a certain amount of, like, moralizing or whatever in society.
00:35:15.080
I think maybe people need a certain outlet for their, quote, racism or, like, prejudice.
00:35:21.040
And if, if Hanania, if you feel that racism, real racism is really bad, then maybe astrology is kind of a better way to get that impulse out.
00:35:32.180
It's a, you know, it's a relatively harmless argument I've ever heard of.
00:35:38.400
Let the girls have their fun little light racism.
00:35:44.280
You've been paying attention to the demons people on Twitter.
00:35:47.400
Seems much, much, it seems like the people who believe in demons have deep psychological problems.
00:35:53.800
So would you rather have Tucker talking about a demon attacking him in the middle of the night or, like.
00:36:00.800
I'd rather have looking at a sign and, yeah, thinking the stars.
00:36:03.440
Democrat women being like, oh, he's such a Gemini.
00:36:06.520
Like, I think it's, I think it's telling that Dems kind of prefer astrology and right-wingers prefer demons.
00:36:17.120
I rarely see these right-wing women, these ethots.
00:36:22.960
Every time I think of someone speaking about demons on Twitter, it's always a right-wing male.
00:36:28.040
Maybe those females, maybe demons are too scary for women.
00:36:31.220
I haven't seen one, even though they buy into other right-wing BS.
00:36:38.080
It seems to be a very male phenomenon, the demon thing.
00:36:56.560
I mean, he wrestled with a demon and came out the other side, a new man.
00:37:00.160
He was inspired to read the Bible immediately, and then he opened up his shirt, and he had
00:37:21.800
Let's move on to a little more of a serious issue, because I was curious about your thoughts
00:37:33.260
And that is IVF, embryo selection, writ large, and this whole issue, basically, of reproduction
00:37:45.360
beyond the traditional sexual union, and so on.
00:37:52.720
Now, perhaps I simply have some romantic, capital R and lowercase r, romantic hangups about IVF.
00:38:10.760
I can at least make some logical arguments against it, and I would be curious to hear your responses.
00:38:23.340
So IVF emerged in the 70s, and it was actually a woman whose fallopian tubes were blocked in some way,
00:38:33.200
and they were able to create this, you know, a Petri dish baby, a test tube baby.
00:38:38.480
And so there were problems just with the mechanics of a woman's reproductive system,
00:38:46.700
But here's the problem, is that the journey of the sperm to the egg is evolved in a way that I don't think we fully appreciate.
00:39:01.340
The journey of that sperm is something like Odysseus' journey home after the Trojan War.
00:39:09.960
Like, it can take wrong turns and get lost and just die there.
00:39:18.440
I mean, millions of sperm go in, and maybe like a dozen are near the egg.
00:39:27.420
And not only that, the egg seems to select the sperm in a way that we don't quite understand.
00:39:37.580
Maybe it is random, but maybe we don't fully understand it.
00:39:42.940
And so there's all of this selection that is going on in that process.
00:39:50.440
In a Petri dish with an egg and a sperm, you are originally kind of pouring sperm onto the egg.
00:39:58.960
And I think now there's a way that they can inject sperm.
00:40:02.360
I think you might very well have seen this video that was all over Twitter of these, like, this is horrible.
00:40:09.700
These, like, nanobots, like, bringing the sperm and putting it into the egg.
00:40:14.540
So this is my very strong take here, is that millions of years of evolution is more intelligent than your science.
00:40:27.640
You are very likely going to be engaging in malselection of sperm.
00:40:33.840
You know, the evolved system is going to pick out the best sperm, the top athlete, maybe the luckiest, to be fair.
00:40:49.780
You go into these labs, and who knows, you just randomly select a sperm and it gets in there.
00:40:55.120
And so we're losing this accumulation of intelligence that went into reproduction, and we're putting forth this.
00:41:06.160
So first off, what do you think of this, like, sort of initial critique of IVF, that it is dysgenic in effect?
00:41:20.640
So there are some people who are big boosters of this technology, who are big boosters of IVF and embryo selection, who say that basically, like, you should just stop reading the old-fashioned way.
00:41:36.520
Everyone should just do IVF, and then we'll, like, get you your predicted IQ and your predicted, you know, disease burden of the person, and then pick the best one.
00:41:49.660
So if you can reproduce naturally, go ahead and reproduce naturally.
00:41:55.620
It's, like, it's very hard to know if this is, you know, like, they have these models, and they haven't run the experiments.
00:42:01.080
We haven't seen kids grow up, and, you know, some of them were embryo-selected and some of them not.
00:42:06.400
There's GWAS studies where big data with, they try to predict stuff from your genome.
00:42:16.400
And so I would not do IVF for people who are able to conceive naturally, unless maybe you have some kind of genetic, you know, disability.
00:42:23.780
If you have, you know, some Huntington's disease or something, one of those things that might get passed on, sure, do it in that case if you're high risk for something.
00:42:31.120
The case of most people who are getting IVF, though, are not doing that.
00:42:51.460
If you're worried about the dysgenics, this is the least of your problems.
00:42:54.720
Maybe they will all come out and all have IQs like, you know, the mountains of Appalachia maybe.
00:42:59.800
I think there's been enough IVF people on board that, like, even if you are IVF, if you have two upper-class parents and they had you, your life is probably going to be okay.
00:43:14.540
Even if you are some smart, elite human capital working at a law firm, what is wrong with you that you can't conceive?
00:43:25.200
I mean, not to be a total jerk here, but, like, I mean, isn't there more to being a successful human being beyond just IQ?
00:43:36.520
And if we keep allowing these weak nerds to do this, we're going to end up generation upon generation of this compounding interest of fertility treatment.
00:43:49.540
We are going to end up with people who can't even…
00:43:54.240
They can't fuck, like, to be as blunt about it as possible.
00:43:58.420
What in the hell is wrong with you if you can't do that?
00:44:01.860
And three generations down the line, we're going to have some crippled nerd race.
00:44:21.560
They're going to have the same mechanical problems as their parents.
00:44:24.480
They're going to think like their parents because of heritability.
00:44:36.860
And the guy who has a low sperm count and is like a successful businessman or something, I'm not worried about it.
00:44:47.500
If you're worried about people who are having kids, like there are people with much worse socially undesirable traits who are having lots of kids.
00:44:56.020
If this is a problem, we'll eventually realize it.
00:44:59.640
We'll see that like they did three generations of IVF.
00:45:02.040
Oh my God, you can tell this guy's got, you know, something really, really wrong with him.
00:45:06.580
We'll all be the Oliver Wendell Holmes of like 2100.
00:45:10.700
Three generations of nerds is more than enough.
00:45:15.060
I mean, I don't know if that's like even true that they're just like nerds.
00:45:27.420
It's like you struggle breathing to like is is walking a problem for you?
00:45:36.220
You're asking me like it's the choice these people made.
00:45:42.760
I'm talking to these nerds who are spending tens of thousands of dollars.
00:45:47.240
Some people could fuck just as good as you, Richard.
00:45:49.260
They just have low sperm counts or the woman can't get pregnant.
00:45:53.820
You're taking it as like an indication of like, you know, male potency or like a poetic
00:46:09.560
The guys in the ghetto who have 80 kids by three different women, they are the pinnacle of
00:46:18.160
And I'm, and I'm thinking of idiocracy with the guy who like impaled his genitals on a
00:46:23.280
gate after jumping a jet ski into a swimming pool.
00:46:26.740
And they say like, I, and he's had like 12 kids.
00:46:30.380
But isn't there something to the fact that that idiot is vitalistic?
00:46:39.860
Like, even if he is like a total just buffoon, I'll grant you that.
00:46:44.580
But like, he, he has the life force flowing through him.
00:46:56.500
I mean, it is, you know, you're acting, you know, there is like a thing is just like
00:47:01.400
numbers and like being agnostic and waiting and seeing what happens.
00:47:05.520
You know, if, if 95% of kids were born IVF, I would say, you know, what are we doing here?
00:47:09.600
If it's like a few percentage of like people who can afford it and who are rich and who
00:47:13.720
are well off and seem to have okay outcomes, like whatever, if there's, if there's a, you
00:47:17.720
know, if there's a bad effect down the line, you know, that's, that's, I'm not like, like
00:47:23.780
nature, even if we're not having overcome nature yet, there will be a point.
00:47:32.300
We should probably have a combination of like biotech and like breeding naturally.
00:47:36.120
We should probably keep some populations breeding naturally just for the sake of genetic diversity
00:47:41.880
But like, eventually we'll be able to like go in and, you know, actually like know the
00:47:46.120
genes, the CRISPR takeout and, you know, genetic engineering to improve your IQ to make you
00:47:54.180
So we need kind of like, we need experimentation.
00:47:59.400
If all the IVF babies after three generations all die when they're 10 or they all become impotent,
00:48:05.320
that'll be good scientific information to know.
00:48:07.640
Like we just, we shouldn't just sit here and, you know, forecast the future 100 years and
00:48:17.860
So RFH actually sent me a very interesting video that was from CBS News and they were doing
00:48:25.100
a report on an individual woman, but this actually raised a lot of important questions.
00:48:31.080
And this woman was abusing IVF in effect, and she was just in surrogacy actually at some
00:48:42.960
I think she had 18 at some point and she was using these surrogates.
00:48:47.940
And there seemed to be no limiting factor to this woman just creating children willy nilly.
00:48:54.580
And there was even in this report indications that, it goes back to Epstein, child CES traffickers
00:49:04.240
might begin farming children this way as just horrifying through surrogacy and IVF.
00:49:17.340
But I would make two other points before I ask you to respond.
00:49:24.660
First off, when it comes to something like a luxury product, like a Rolls Royce or a Rolex
00:49:30.680
watch or something, those are not being democratized.
00:49:34.680
No one thinks that you have a right to drive a Rolls Royce or something.
00:49:38.800
When it comes to health matters, anything that touches on health matters.
00:49:43.400
Those, the trend is that those will eventually be democratized.
00:49:47.860
And so it's not just rich nerds who are going to get their hands on this technology.
00:49:53.400
Donald Trump himself wanted to force insurance companies to cover IVF.
00:49:58.800
Tim Waltz was talking about how he used IVF or something like this.
00:50:02.480
And it's this great, good old American family thing.
00:50:10.720
So maybe right now it's like the Collins family are using IVF, but it's not going to be that way for long.
00:50:19.260
And this is my other point about CRISPR, which would be gene editing and embryo selection, which you, there are companies now that are saying, oh, we think that there's like with this child, there's like an 80% chance he won't have your diabetes.
00:50:34.920
And then we can look at the IQ of this embryo within this range.
00:50:40.260
First off, something like human intelligence is deeply complicated, polygenic, and no doubt the whole nature and nurture thing is a virtuous cycle or a vicious cycle, I guess you could say.
00:50:55.080
But the deeply complicated trait, intelligence.
00:50:58.780
But secondly, we don't, you don't, we don't know enough.
00:51:08.880
And you might say, oh yeah, let's just get rid of that diabetes.
00:51:13.420
But you don't know why diabetes might be there in the first place.
00:51:19.040
The classic example of this is something like sickle cell anemia, which affects African Americans.
00:51:25.240
There's a reason why that disease is prevalent in African Americans, and that it allows them to survive malaria carried by mosquitoes in their native environment.
00:51:37.100
What I'm saying is, is that you, you think that you can like correct a typo, like in a paper, you know, oh, I just misspelled that word all correct.
00:51:45.840
You don't in fact know what you're selecting for.
00:51:49.680
There, there are massive, not only is the accuracy debatable, but there might very well be massive trade-offs or opportunity costs that we don't understand that we are going to be engaging in with IVF and embryonic selection.
00:52:13.060
Millions of years of evolution is more intelligent than your current science.
00:52:17.900
There's, you know, there's, there's a case for caution, but look, if you take this mentality, how, what would you say about birth control?
00:52:28.780
She gets, needs to get pregnant at certain times of the month.
00:52:32.340
I mean, you know, you don't know what you're doing when you're screwing with that.
00:52:35.460
Ozempic, you could say, you know, we are, we get fat when we eat too much for a reason.
00:52:47.260
And I think that that's, you know, I think that is like not the experience of human history.
00:52:51.940
Like we've had progress, we've gotten healthier and smarter.
00:52:54.500
And like, we just don't throw up our heads at every point and say, evolution is smarter than us.
00:52:59.980
Like, we're just going to stay here and do nothing.
00:53:09.640
It's just like, if you can have a child naturally and there's no like, there's no disease that you expect to pass on.
00:53:22.460
But then this idea like, oh, you know, I'm going to have Huntington's disease.
00:53:28.180
Do we really know if we want to get rid of that?
00:53:30.540
I think, I think we know enough to say we'd rather not have that.
00:53:34.380
I just, I don't think it'll stop at that point.
00:53:36.180
It seems that at some point, like Richard said, it will be democratized and it's going to be like taboo to conceive naturally.
00:53:48.480
There's like, yeah, maybe we are far from that, but yeah, you have to think all the way through.
00:53:54.080
The people who are having kids now are the people who don't have a lot.
00:53:57.960
Like there aren't a lot of Collins as compared to like religious fundamentalists who don't do any of this stuff.
00:54:02.420
So like you're worried about like the nerds using IVF outnumbering.
00:54:10.000
Well, no, I mean, I, I, I'm, I'm worried about the development of a sickly nerd race.
00:54:17.700
Um, that the Collins are, I mean, there are kind of, I think you're just reacting to the Collins.
00:54:27.140
Um, I wouldn't be surprised if they did do IVF.
00:54:31.560
Wait, are you talking about the, the, the problem glasses woman that, yeah.
00:54:38.960
It looks like a handmaid, nerdy handmaid's tale kind of situation.
00:54:54.160
Let's, let's have a race of people who can't have sex.
00:55:00.380
I wouldn't go like euthanize him because you know, he's nice.
00:55:05.280
Actually, maybe he might've been good at it, but you know, you get the point.
00:55:08.100
If someone that couldn't have sex, I don't want to go like, whatever, they still might
00:55:12.300
Maybe there'll be a bunch of sterile nerds and they'll like invent stuff.
00:55:14.980
And like, you know, the football players will, we'll have fun, you know, whatever.
00:55:18.440
It's like, we can't, we can't foresee, like we can't plan this stuff.
00:55:22.640
Like if we're at the kiss IVF being all babies being born.
00:55:29.280
I understand that, but like, I can imagine within 20 years of CRISPR technology, maybe
00:55:36.520
using some sort of AI or something being democratized.
00:55:40.160
And we think of designer babies in the sense of like, oh, this couple, they, they can afford
00:55:46.000
to spend, you know, 200 grand on fertility treatments as they're going to create this
00:55:52.460
And, and, and yeah, I, I sort of get problems people might have with that, but I'm worried
00:56:00.940
I'm worried about this kind of technology being democratized and put in the hands of
00:56:07.200
idiots who are going to select for like gigantic asses.
00:56:11.640
And I'm not even joking, but you were just spending millions of dollars on Silicon asses.
00:56:18.760
Now, of course they're going to do this and it's going to, Trump will be like, it's an
00:56:32.540
I mean, it's like, you have your naturals here.
00:56:34.500
You have your religious communities who don't want any part of it.
00:56:50.020
Um, so, so is there anything else, um, on your radar, Richard, that, uh, we should mention?
00:56:57.220
I was thinking about just doing sort of a brief live stream an hour or so, but is there, is
00:57:01.100
there anything else that, you know, has, you know, has a, has a, is a bee in your bonnet?
00:57:08.260
I mean, you know, the thoughts, they go straight from my mind to the Twitter.
00:57:11.200
So you can follow that and see, see what I'm, what I'm thinking of, but no, nothing in
00:57:20.200
Well, thank you for being here and, uh, we should definitely do this again.
00:57:24.840
And I continue to enjoy your Twitter and sub stacks.
00:57:29.040
So, uh, yeah, we do enjoy dunking on the same people.
00:57:36.000
I enjoy your demonology and your kind of Tucker takes.
00:57:43.300
And yeah, thanks for being here as always, RFH.