00:03:33.380I mean, that's the strongest argument that I've heard,
00:03:37.680that there is some reference to Nero going on,
00:03:41.220um, as opposed to a more general, you know, figure. But again, I would, the problem with
00:03:49.720the gematria, um, explanation is that, um, six, six can produce a very large number of names,
00:03:57.680right? Um, so it's not, you know, it doesn't, it doesn't obviously point to Nero. Um, and I,
00:04:05.340There have been other proposals. Probably the most famous is that the name means Latin man or the Roman, right, which six six can also spell.
00:04:17.640You know, so I mean, I so I I would say that I think it will be worth like revisiting those passages.
00:04:26.520The Nero explanation seems plausible, but to the extent it's based on Gematria, I think it's kind of thin, honestly.
00:04:33.760um and it's one of the reasons uh gematria is not uh something that's been interesting
00:04:40.400to me in terms of uh gem analysis is because the numbers could spell many things right
00:04:49.300you know i mean and that's not and i think it probably uh jews will occasionally introduce
00:04:56.400gematria they you know i assume that this is done uh or some jewish filmmaker has done this
00:05:02.360you know people have theories about uh hotel numbers and like the shining for example and
00:05:08.220cooper's shining um but i just think that the problem is what does that actually what does
00:05:14.280that number actually signify and it could signify many things right i think it's just kind of it's
00:05:20.260it's a way i think our reading of the of room 237 actually seems more plausible to adam and eve
00:05:26.780three serpent seven the sabbath and there's all that garden of eden imagery in the room that he0.80
00:05:34.420walks in it's it's green and so on and eve comes out of the tub and then she's an old hag you know0.94
00:05:40.260the sin i mean i i think that sort of works that yeah i'm using that as an example of we're not0.83
00:05:47.180numerologists here like it's it's worse in terms of we rem theorists like it it's sort of simpler
00:05:54.640in a way you don't have to take all these steps there are numbers that just you know when you see
00:06:00.420sixes and sevens that's it that's all you need sort of and multiples thereof yeah i so i'm yeah
00:06:08.480i'm of a school of a simpler uh numerology i guess you could say and i think that that's you know and
00:06:16.220again because of this problem with uh gematria i think that that you know i that's why i don't
00:06:22.160think it's really worth looking at so if that were the only evidence someone was presenting
00:06:25.980that this is nero then i'd be like well it's that's very thin right that's very thin um i think
00:06:34.100there is more going on though in in this section of um revelation that we'll get into as we read
00:06:42.440it um and also that the number six itself has a kind of deeper significance right so the number
00:06:48.260six as we discussed it also it has you know i was listening to um
00:06:53.620i was listening to another uh uh person or podcast who was doing a kind of symbolic analysis of um
00:07:04.100uh revelation and he he was saying and this is something i would i would be interested in
00:07:10.120verifying and just sort of double checking but the number six has a general kind of negative
00:07:15.180association, which we might expect, right? Now, how exactly that's deduced may be less clear,
00:07:24.300but this is a kind of thought that some scholars run with, that essentially that six has a kind of
00:07:31.200negative association elsewhere in the Bible, right? Which I guess would make sense, right,
00:07:37.080from our perspective. Now, I think that, yeah, yeah, but I think that REM tends to be more
00:07:43.760clever than that where the it's it's almost it's sort of it has a significance but it's not
00:07:48.760necessarily a good evil significance and so forth right um and i think it is sort of yeah oh go finish
00:07:57.820your thought and then i'll yeah no no so that's the only thing i'm saying so the argument that
00:08:03.100collins is presenting is the most convincing i've heard which is he's he's making a strong case
00:08:09.340that Nero was this kind of boogeyman to the Jews in the ancient world and so forth,
00:08:14.320and that he had an even sort of anti-messiac-like significance, messianic, anti-messianic
00:08:21.540significance. So I think that that's the best case that we've heard supporting that this is
00:08:27.460a reference to Nero. But going on Gematria, I just don't see it. And the other thing I would
00:08:34.460argue too is that this figure may be a more general figure than nero right and a more timeless figure
00:08:40.920who uh where the symbolic connections are deeper and you know again we we argue that six has a kind
00:08:50.400of solar arian significance and the number of man the number of creation and so uh so there is
00:08:57.020something deeper there definitely with uh six six six is it also a reference to nero could be i
00:09:02.460mean we'll look at it but i definitely what uh what he is arguing is uh more compelling than
00:09:10.860other arguments i've heard do you think it's as simple as it's jupiterian and like in some
00:09:17.580way associated with zeus yeah but i think that when we when we look at the myth i think it's even
00:09:23.680more complex than that and i think that it's so the figure uh the beast that is associated with
00:09:31.120666 um as we'll see there's there are other contextual details that that may make him kind
00:09:38.420of more specific in significance right the argument i all put forth is that he might represent
00:09:43.940essentially uh a gentile form of christianity a kind of you know racialist or corrupt form of
00:09:50.960christianity that is you know anti-semitic or is is racialist right um where you know we have this
00:09:59.400idea that people who are don't have the mark are excluded from trade and so forth so it might
00:10:05.060represent like christians becoming tribalistic and racist or something like this i'll make the
00:10:10.440argument um as we analyze uh the symbols but in other words it's deeper right than it this is
00:10:18.020just nero hey we saw that it's nero right um is it also a reference in nero could be i mean it's
00:10:24.400I mean, I think that there are examples, you know, in contemporary gem where they're certainly making references to contemporary figures, but those figures also have a kind of deeper mythological significance, right?
00:10:38.600And they are what we would call composite gods, composite characters, composite gods, but they're referencing figures that the artist is seeing as related and having a similar significance, essentially, some that are contemporary, some that are ancient, right?
00:10:59.140In any case, and I guess I'll let you...
00:11:05.560Yeah, I think, are we ready to start reading?
00:11:08.600yeah yeah yeah well one one thing i wanted to return to because i think a we gave it sort of
00:11:16.680a kind of incomplete treatment and there's a lot there um okay so going back again to the
00:11:24.600description of these um uh these sort of scorpion men that accompany apollyon um and this is i
00:11:33.080believe it's in revelation 9 9 right uh so i can read that again just to go back um
00:11:43.260uh their faces were like human faces their hair like women's hair and their teeth like lion's
00:11:50.120teeth they have breastplates like burlesperates of iron and the noise of their wings is like the
00:11:56.420noise of many chariots with horses running into battle yeah this is the um this is just before
00:12:02.900apollyon is introduced and and in the appearance the locusts were like horses prepared for battle
00:12:08.940on their head were what looked like crowns of gold it's locust with faces and so on they have
00:12:17.120tails and stings like scorpions and their power to hurt people for five months is in their tails
00:12:23.540they have as king over them the angel of the bottomless pit his name in hebrew is
00:12:31.700abaddon and in greek he is called apollyon
00:12:35.780yeah he in that description i don't know if i missed it there's also they're also described
00:12:42.660as having hair like that of women right so this would all yeah yeah this is the core eye right
00:12:49.780or the chorus this is a reference to the chorus um and also apollo is given this
00:12:54.760this epithet as well he of unshorn air he of uncut air right uh we discuss all this when we
00:13:02.580discuss samson because we we you know which means a man of a son and we feel that this is a reference
00:13:08.960to the apollonian cult essentially and there's a reference especially to this ritual of hair
00:13:13.760offerings cutting the hair and offering them um and uh but there are there are many things in
00:13:21.000there there's a kind of there's a there's references to lions which we argue have a
00:13:25.340aryan significance uh there's references there's equine references we argue that the horse has a
00:13:32.560kind of aryan significance as well and this is um you know other people have put forth this thesis
00:13:38.800as well that in the bible uh the horse has a has a kind of gentile significance uh there's um a
00:13:45.920scholar that um i don't know if it's in this book i don't know if we cover it in this book but
00:13:50.120who basically has this thesis and has you know uh made this analysis of the bible um and his
00:13:57.900argument is that the horse you know has indo-european significance which in the horse
00:14:02.840has ancient ancient indo-european significance um but that this would so it becomes a symbol
00:14:10.200of jews who are in some way fearful of horses because of you know these uh conquering tribes
00:14:17.840and these martial tribes and so forth um and you know there's references to chariots as well and
00:14:25.980of course that's you know was the roar of many horses and chariots rushing into battle so this
00:14:32.220is also a reference to, um, Apollo. We discussed how the scorpion tail, the scorpion, the reference
00:14:39.580to the scorpion is, uh, it seems like it's a reference to the scorpion men, uh, that are,
00:14:44.880um, you know, are associated, have a solar significance. I think also in Egypt as well,
00:14:52.300there's some, um, you know, so that's something people can double check, but certainly in, uh,
00:14:58.420Mesopotamia, Shemash or Utu, you know, his palace is guarded by the scorpion men and so forth.
00:15:06.040And then there is also the hair, again, that are like something like crowns of gold on their heads.0.91
00:15:14.480And this kind of fixation on hair, hair like women. Right. So we're talking about the Korai.0.91
00:15:20.640And I again, I would argue that we're talking about the Nazarite. Right. So the Nazarite are ultimately a reference to the Koros is the argument.0.96
00:15:28.320that we make in our Samson podcast and so forth.
00:15:33.760And they also, the name Nazar in the Hebrew means many things.
00:15:53.800The koros or the noble youth, that's what the word means.
00:15:56.960koros means noble youth and um it but nazir can also mean hair and it also can mean crown
00:16:07.240right so it also mean hair can also mean crown it's a reference to nobility it's a reference
00:16:12.680to the nazirite and what is the reason this is stuff that we covered again uh in the ancient
00:16:18.100world long hair was associated with nobility this is you know the homeric heroes all had long hair
00:16:25.360It's, you know, it's sort of the, it's a kind of, it harkens to an earlier kind of Aryan, you know, barbarian past, you could say. But long hair has an association with nobility. And maybe it even has a kind of, you know, it has a racial significance as well, because, you know, in Greece, there are different populations in the Mediterranean.
00:16:51.900And so it would also be an expression of race. You have these long, long locks like Apollo. Apollo is associated with this hair. Nobility is associated with the hair. And, you know, by the time of Plato, I think the tradition might be waning, if not going extinct.
00:17:08.380But long hair starts to be associated more with philosophers, whereas formerly it was associated with this noble, you know, founding warrior elite and so forth in Greece.
00:17:24.140So, yeah, all of that is significant in this description.
00:17:28.080And all of this corroborates the idea that we're talking about Apollo here, right?
00:17:31.900So, you know, Amalek was saying that this is something that's been understood by scholars.
00:17:37.640i don't think it's been widely understood or widely reported um i remember when i was researching
00:17:42.720for an article that i wrote about this there was you know i mean with ai now we have ai so we can
00:17:48.480find this sort of obscure guy um that is making this point but um you know i wasn't aware of
00:17:56.100anyone making this point uh prior to me writing an article about it in like 2019 or whatever
00:18:01.220um and then uh and also again we go to yeah it seems it seems likely and it does seem like there
00:18:08.800is uh uh support among scholars for the idea that the first horseman is a reference to apollo he's
00:18:15.460got the bow the second horseman a reference to aries uh the third i guess a reference to the
00:18:21.600god of disease and so forth right and hades is actually mentioned explicitly in that uh sort of
00:18:29.140entourage right that we find with the horses um yeah so uh those are just kind of points that i
00:18:36.660wanted to touch on again because i think we were kind of leaving some of that detail out uh something
00:18:42.820like crowns of gold on their heads so nazar can also mean crown as well as head or as well as hair
00:18:50.420right so maybe there's maybe to a jewish audience familiar with the hebrew and the different um
00:18:56.820meaning the different meanings that can be derived from words like nazar is you're making
00:19:02.660the association of crown which is an association to nobility of course uh the chorus um it's also
00:19:10.260making maybe an association even to this word nazar which may also mean hair so golden crowns
00:19:15.780of hair and golden of course we're talking about a blonde we're talking about blonde arians here0.63
00:19:21.380are Gentiles, right? That's what we're talking about. And they're led by Apollo, right? So1.00
00:19:27.360the fact that this is some kind of obscure bit of knowledge, which I think at least we can be
00:19:37.240granted, is remarkable because it's clearly an attack on Apollo, right?