RadixJournal - The Case Against ＂Free Speech＂

00:00:00.000 Tonight, I wanted to talk about a rather contentious subject.

00:00:06.780 I guess it's contentious and it's not contentious on one level, and that is free speech.

00:00:13.600 So everyone you know claims to love free speech, particularly if they are American, but not necessarily.

00:00:24.980 It seems to be a kind of bedrock value, and it's very hard to find someone who will openly discuss the problems with that notion.

00:00:40.580 It's obviously enshrined in the First Amendment of the U.S. Constitution.

00:00:48.540 And since we live in an Americanized world, it has traveled around the world.

00:00:57.900 And most new constitutions that you will see will pick up on the American notion of free speech.

00:01:07.700 That notion of free speech, even in the First Amendment, I think should be looked at more closely.

00:01:18.800 And the reason why I'm doing this, I guess the intention or what kind of spurred me to do it, really, was some contemporary problems that we have with speech.

00:01:33.440 Speech is everywhere.

00:01:36.240 It inflects or infects, you could say, our lives more perhaps than at any other point in history.

00:01:44.720 And there's a kind of user-generated, interactive quality to it.

00:01:50.520 You can't get away from someone yammering on a TV.

00:01:55.940 Whether you own a TV or not, you walk into any restaurant, and there it is.

00:02:01.960 Everyone, particularly if you're in this group, I'm sure is to some degree addicted to social media.

00:02:09.320 That includes myself.

00:02:12.980 Some have it worse than most.

00:02:15.200 I think we should freely admit to that.

00:02:18.480 So it is everywhere.

00:02:20.740 It is different than it was in previous times.

00:02:25.020 Just we're enveloped in it, drowning in it.

00:02:27.820 And it is something that is extremely powerful and that we need to address.

00:02:35.320 A few of the things that motivated me to rethink that value of free speech are some contemporary issues that we have to deal with.

00:02:51.660 Most recently, I learned of a controversy with Kiwi Farms, which I have never visited that website.

00:03:02.620 I have heard of it.

00:03:04.280 My understanding is that it is much like 4chan, a kind of user-generated forum that is anonymous.

00:03:14.260 You know, enlighten me if I'm incorrect.

00:03:17.420 And it became a cesspool of doxing, bizarre revenge fantasies, lies.

00:03:26.740 And what is textbook harassment, effectively?

00:03:31.840 You have a right to go out to the center of town or a city sidewalk and hold up a placard that says, say no to war or, you know, all lives matter, pro-life forever, whatever.

00:03:55.960 You absolutely have that right.

00:03:58.420 You don't have the right to harass someone who disagrees with you.

00:04:05.880 You can, of course, have a conversation with them.

00:04:08.220 You don't have the right to endlessly yell at them or at him or follow him home.

00:04:16.740 Or loudly shout his address where he lives and effectively urge people to go harass him or even kill him.

00:04:26.720 You don't have that right, actually. 1.00

00:04:30.540 And the notion that you somehow acquire that right through the internet is really stupid. 0.99

00:04:39.760 You don't have a right to sell the internet. 0.99

00:04:44.060 You don't have a right to illegal drugs, that is.

00:04:47.040 You don't have a right to contract a hitman on the internet.

00:04:52.660 The internet is a means form of communication.

00:04:57.000 It is tubes developed and built by the government.

00:05:00.880 You have just as much right to contract with a hitman on the internet as you do on a public sidewalk.

00:05:09.940 But there are many people who don't seem to fundamentally grasp this distinction.

00:05:17.560 I've noted who is perhaps my least favorite political commentator and someone who is more popular than ever, although he has been in the line life for about a decade or so, and that is Glenn Greenwald.

00:05:31.820 He took it upon himself to defend Kiwi Farms.

00:05:38.720 Now, it is interesting.

00:05:40.320 I actually looked at this last night.

00:05:42.920 I was curious about Glenn Greenwald defend...

00:05:48.140 I mean, look, I'm self-interested.

00:05:50.840 It's personal.

00:05:51.920 I was curious if he ever defended my right to free speech.

00:05:55.740 So I did an advanced search, and I looked at some certain things, and apparently Glenn didn't have the time to speak up on some very key occasions, and one of which was a moment about two years ago when I and Stefan Molyneux, I believe Jared Taylor and maybe a couple other people, were kicked off YouTube.

00:06:25.740 And, you know, I can only speak for myself, but I can more or less speak for the other people.

00:06:35.380 That was pretty outrageous in the sense that I understand when someone gets kicked off for disobeying the terms of service.

00:06:47.840 I mean, look, on some level, if you don't like the terms of service, you can get lost.

00:06:53.260 It's not your platform.

00:06:55.740 But when people are actually obeying them and really, you know, taking the time to obey them and putting forward whatever you think about me, whatever you think about Molyneux, whatever, putting forward content of a thoughtful nature, that is pretty outrageous.

00:07:13.480 But, you know, I didn't notice, I did an advanced search, Glenn Greenwald didn't seem to have the time to speak up on that matter.

00:07:21.320 There are some other cases like that.

00:07:22.660 I don't want to make this some personal matter.

00:07:27.140 It's a matter of principle.

00:07:28.660 But, you know, there's this there's this one liner that sometimes attributed to Chomsky.

00:07:38.620 He actually did say this on multiple occasions, sometimes attributed to Gandhi and Voltaire.

00:07:44.560 It's one of these quotes.

00:07:45.480 Like, first, they first, they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win or something like that.

00:07:51.820 But the line that I'm thinking of is.

00:07:54.800 The question is not whether you defend the free speech rights of speech you agree with.

00:08:03.860 The real question is whether you will defend the rights of people who you vehemently disagree with, maybe even the rights of people who are outrageous, maybe even poisonous or disgusting.

00:08:21.300 That's the test.

00:08:22.660 Will you defend Kiwi Farms?

00:08:26.220 Will you defend Andrew Anglin?

00:08:28.440 Well, I think it's almost more of a test when you defend the rights of people who are rational, to be honest.

00:08:37.000 It's kind of fine, I guess, but not very impressive when you vaguely defend the rights of Kiwi Farms or just people's ability to say whatever the hell they want on the Internet.

00:08:56.780 That's, in some ways, it is a kind of low cost.

00:09:06.060 There are clear implications to the existence of places like 4chan and Kiwi Farms.

00:09:14.200 They are absolutely toxic.

00:09:17.200 And whether it's 1% of 1% of people who will actually look at the rhetoric there and go kill some Twitch streamer that they're secretly in love with but are madly jealous of or something like that.

00:09:42.680 Or someone like the Buffalo shooter who will just cut and paste all of this, you know, great replacement type stuff.

00:09:52.440 And not look at it in a proper context.

00:09:57.900 Not look at it in the context of someone who can actually talk about these things rationally. 0.99

00:10:04.300 But just kind of cut and paste a bunch of graphs and then decide that the only way forward is to go kill minorities, people of color. 1.00

00:10:17.300 You know, it's a football score and, you know, they're down 10 and I'm up 1 or something because I murdered them. 0.98

00:10:27.340 But in places like 4chan, where it's this toxic brew of just endless, horrible nonsense, total distortions of what many serious people believe and kind of foreign assets acting in there as well.

00:10:50.260 You can inspire that 1% of 1% of 1% of 1% of 1% to do something like that.

00:10:57.040 And it's almost a mathematical certainty that something like that will happen. 0.90

00:11:02.000 But you can also, in a cost-free manner, kind of vaguely defend the rights of these people to put forth just absolute garbage.

00:11:15.680 And to engage in what is textbook harassment due to their supposed rights to free speech.

00:11:26.700 I think people like Greenwald, they kind of get in this way of thinking that they see liberals who actually are, at the very least, trying to address this issue.

00:11:46.520 And they basically see them as the fascist, and they see all of these people engaging in this toxic culture as, you know, somehow innocent or even the good guys.

00:11:59.800 And they just moralize on that basis without seriously thinking about the problem.

00:12:06.920 There's some other things that are important here about just our contemporary notion of free speech, and just some big problems within that legally, and I think you could say philosophically as well.

00:12:28.660 So, you can be forgiven if you believe that since the First Amendment was penned and enacted by the states, that we have just more or less had a right to free speech.

00:12:49.800 Now, that doesn't mean a right to, you know, sell drugs via language, writing or something like that.

00:12:57.900 That doesn't mean a right to post, you know, graphic pornography or illegal pornography that is kind of a form of expression, I guess, on some level, but is obviously illegal.

00:13:15.340 But you have a right that is enshrined to speak your mind, and no one can do anything about that.

00:13:22.840 That actually isn't what freedom of speech means, at least in the common law tradition.

00:13:33.020 Freedom of speech is basically a notion, and this is, and I'm drawing on Blackwell, that your ability to engage in speech cannot preemptively be taken away.

00:13:50.880 So, no one shall destroy your printing press effectively before you've said something.

00:14:04.880 That is your ability to engage in speech.

00:14:08.940 But, even as, you know, early as the Adams administration, the government has had no real issue with enacting sedition acts that basically see speech as potentially a threat to public life.

00:14:33.080 And certainly a threat to the government, and something that needs to be addressed at the very least.

00:14:44.580 Now, there was another sedition act that, I guess, indirectly gave birth to the current conception, legal and moral conception of free speech.

00:14:57.640 And that was the sedition act that accompanied the U.S. entry into the First World War.

00:15:07.320 There were a number of suits immediately after that that reached the Supreme Court, in which people, Eugene Debs being an excellent example.

00:15:22.440 He was a famous socialist.

00:15:26.320 He was also against the First World War.

00:15:32.720 And he was being careful about his language.

00:15:37.060 But he was valorizing or promoting people who evaded the draft.

00:15:44.060 And he was, he was, he lost his suit against the government.

00:15:50.540 And he was jailed under the Sedition Act.

00:15:55.280 And one of the famous Supreme Court justices, maybe the most famous, who affirmed those rulings was Oliver Wendell Holmes.

00:16:07.820 In one of a series of tests of the 1918 Sedition Act, Holmes wrote the now famous statement that you still hear repeated over and over again about how you are not allowed to yell fire in a crowded theory, in a crowded theater, if it is not a flame.

00:16:33.140 So you don't have the right to generate public mayhem, is what he is effectively saying.

00:16:45.320 Holmes was a fascinating man.

00:16:47.620 He was actually in his late 70s when these controversies were taking place.

00:16:52.960 He remained on the Supreme Court into his 90s.

00:16:55.380 And he was a, at the very least, memorable Supreme Court justice. 0.99

00:17:03.800 He also gave furthest lines about, what is it, three generations of idiots is more than enough or something like that. 0.93

00:17:11.540 But he, he changed his mind in a famous case of Abrams versus the United States, which was the case of some Russian Jewish anarchist who were in opposition to some of these somewhat now forgotten military campaigns of the U.S. 0.98

00:17:38.680 of the allies, of the allies, basically, including Britain, against the new Bolshevik regime.

00:17:45.760 And Abrams was a pamphleteer of some kind.

00:17:51.560 And Oliver Wendell Holmes reversed himself.

00:17:56.100 So in an affirmation of a decision, of a verdict, rather, Wendell Holmes penned the lines, you're not, you can't yell fire in a crowded theater.

00:18:10.020 In his dissent, he said something very different.

00:18:14.280 And it's actually the dissent, which is, has been the kind of precedent, if you, not, you know, if you will, not exactly the right word there.

00:18:26.740 It's been the logic of future rulings on free speech.

00:18:32.900 And he effectively said that you would engage in the censoring and suppression of speech when you are 100% certain that you're right.

00:18:50.800 And in that way, the other party's speech is, at best, useless.

00:18:59.420 He is, at best, some kind of flat earth fanatic or someone who wants to square the circle.

00:19:04.760 That's what I think the exact language Holmes used.

00:19:09.540 But maybe it might actually be dangerous.

00:19:12.240 We don't need to hear from communist anarchists or anything like that.

00:19:20.340 That, you know, we can have free speech within limits, but sometimes people just take it too far.

00:19:27.720 But he said the United States is unique.

00:19:31.920 And it actually has a legal conception that is unique from common law.

00:19:38.940 So he was directly addressing the fact that, no, actually, the United States is different.

00:19:48.500 And while common law might grant you that right to own a printing press, but not necessarily grant you the right to say something toxic.

00:20:00.960 In the United States, it does, because the United States is, in effect, a free market place of ideas.

00:20:09.980 It's an experiment.

00:20:12.980 And in this sense, he was, in some ways, I think, even calling upon Darwin to a degree.

00:20:19.500 Holmes was a very literate man.

00:20:22.340 He was a conservative, no doubt, but an intellectual conservative, to say the least.

00:20:30.880 And he basically said this whole thing we're involved in is a kind of experiment.

00:20:35.520 And we don't know if those anarchists are necessarily wrong.

00:20:43.100 Maybe the Bolsheviks are right. 1.00

00:20:45.300 Who knows?

00:20:46.100 I don't think Holmes actually believed that personally, but he did, for better and for worse, make this principled stand.

00:20:58.320 And so that tradition of free speech, you can see, that's coming from a dissent, that is coming from something that was not effective.

00:21:08.600 You see that logic in the many cases of the Supreme Court on free speech, when they would say, when they would hold that someone has a right, Brandenburg, someone has a right, Brandenburg, to say really outlandish stuff.

00:21:28.100 And even talk about violence in the way of, you know, we're going to round up Congress and hang them all or something, you know, something like that, that is, yes, a call to violence on some kind of vague level, but is so vague that it doesn't seem like a direct order of violence.

00:21:54.500 You can see that, again, you can see that, again, in the Supreme Court's upholding the right of the Westboro Baptist Church to protest the funerals of soldiers in the most completely outrageous manner possible, offensive manner. 0.98

00:22:15.740 The fact is, the fact is, they were engaging in some kind of political statement, even if they are holding up a sign that says, God hate fags or something. 0.97

00:22:29.420 It wasn't mere harassment. 0.99

00:22:32.520 It was outrageous, but outrage used to make a political point. 0.59

00:22:39.600 I mean, all of this is justified on that logic that the United States is a mere experiment.

00:22:50.960 So it's an even more profound logic than we disagree on policy.

00:22:57.980 Also, people are comfortable with free speech when we all agree on the basics.

00:23:03.500 You know, in your little town, is there going to be a vigorous debate on whether we should raise sales tax to build a new baseball stadium or whatever?

00:23:17.360 You all agree on the basics.

00:23:19.860 You agree that the town should be prosperous, that baseball is good, that you might raise taxes a little bit here and there, but not too much.

00:23:30.480 We just want what's the best for our community.

00:23:33.600 We're all in agreement on those basic norms.

00:23:37.320 And if in those basic norms, we have some vigorous debate and yell at each other, but afterwards we'll go home because we're ultimately on the same team.

00:23:48.440 This is saying something much more profound, which is that the United States is an experiment.

00:23:57.200 We should listen to Ted Kaczynski.

00:24:01.740 We should listen to Bolshevik anarchist pamphleteers.

00:24:07.140 Maybe they're right.

00:24:11.440 I think that, you know, to be fair, I think there are some good qualities of this type of free speech conception, logical and moral conception.

00:24:25.200 And I am someone who has said some rather radical stuff.

00:24:34.160 And I'm someone who's read some rather radical stuff as well.

00:24:40.020 So I think at the very least the devil should be given his due.

00:24:44.440 I might be a bit offended if Karl Marx got banned at my local library or bookstore or something.

00:24:58.160 But that is ultimately a matter of taste.

00:25:02.840 And that's ultimately a matter of reading powerful, but maybe not terribly relevant philosophical ideas.

00:25:17.280 What's much more relevant, where the rubber hits the road, as it were, is the right of free speech of people who take part in these forums, like Kiwi Farms, like 4chan, like many other places,

00:25:41.860 that might host some philosophical discussion here and there, but which are overwhelmingly used as a platform for harassment. 0.99

00:25:57.600 I don't think that any of you would be too upset if there were some restaurant-like establishment somewhere

00:26:15.600 that was known to everyone as a mob-owned hangout and distribution center for drug dealers.

00:26:29.120 Yes, it might actually be a restaurant.

00:26:34.700 You can order drinks and some spaghetti bolognese if you'd like.

00:26:42.500 But it's ultimately a platform for crime.

00:26:48.520 That's why it's there.

00:26:51.400 No one actually created it so that they could serve you spaghetti or give you a martini.

00:26:58.100 They created it as a platform for criminality.

00:27:03.220 Would you really be that terribly upset if the cops shut it down?

00:27:11.880 One other thing that I noticed recently with a clip I saw of Tucker Carlson

00:27:22.680 is that he has been hosting, for reasons I don't quite understand,

00:27:30.600 he has been hosting people who, you know, at a time of crisis,

00:27:36.560 at a time when the United States is not directly engaged in a war with Russia,

00:27:43.880 and I certainly hope that we will not be engaged in a direct confrontation,

00:27:49.940 is, for all intents and purposes, in a global conflict with Russia.

00:27:59.880 We are funding to the tune of billions of dollars.

00:28:06.900 Our reputation, our know-how is all directed towards a very difficult and important conflagration

00:28:21.220 in Central Eastern Europe, one that could have tremendous consequences.

00:28:29.920 Are we really okay with the notion of Tucker Carlson hosting people who are,

00:28:40.000 if not outright Russian assets, people who are simply promoting Russian talking points and delusions

00:28:52.440 that are either meant to misrepresent reality,

00:28:57.460 or in fact to generate conflict and unrest and confusion,

00:29:05.400 even like dissociation from reality among the public?

00:29:10.000 All of the airways are, in effect, public airways.

00:29:17.680 If, you know, the United States directly regulates the actual airways of broadcast, radio, and television,

00:29:28.740 those tubes that bring us the internet or cable, etc.,

00:29:36.320 are on some basic level...

00:29:40.000 a government project, much as is indoor plumbing.

00:29:46.400 Now,

00:29:47.680 you can promote things like,

00:29:52.240 you know,

00:29:53.300 the German ideology by Karl Marx,

00:29:56.000 and I don't think any reasonable person, certainly including myself, would say,

00:30:02.060 ah, we just ban it all.

00:30:05.520 The internet's a public space ban that.

00:30:07.620 No.

00:30:08.820 That's a serious work done in good faith by an intellectual, that is Karl Marx,

00:30:15.340 but also one that isn't just, let's be honest, immediately relevant.

00:30:21.880 It's something that's probably pretty easy to tolerate.

00:30:24.860 The people daring to read the German ideology by Karl Marx are probably scholars or intelligent,

00:30:35.260 sensitive, sensible, thoughtful people,

00:30:39.260 men and women of ideas,

00:30:40.860 not people who are going to be somehow inspired at work, I don't know how, to commit violence or harm people's lives or anything like that.

00:30:55.100 But can we say the same for people who have bad intentions?

00:31:05.260 Whatever you want to say about Karl Marx, he did absolutely act in good faith in his writing.

00:31:10.860 There's something, there's something, there's something for us to learn from him, in fact.

00:31:17.020 Can you say the same of

00:31:19.100 Aristotle generals who have been paid by the Kremlin

00:31:25.180 to lie and inspire a kind of dissociation from reality

00:31:29.900 on the, among the American public?

00:31:33.340 Is that really

00:31:34.700 what we want to support

00:31:36.980 in terms of free speech?

00:31:39.080 That is, bad faith actors

00:31:41.960 polluting the public square.

00:31:46.600 Might another argument be

00:31:48.360 that

00:31:49.240 the ultimate victims

00:31:51.800 of

00:31:53.560 a place like 4chan or Kiwi Farms

00:31:56.920 or many places like that

00:31:59.080 are not only

00:32:02.600 the, you know,

00:32:05.280 Twitch streamers who get harassed

00:32:09.080 they'll probably survive.

00:32:10.920 But the, the, the real

00:32:11.960 large number of victims

00:32:13.960 are the people who use that site.

00:32:18.360 That there's something just

00:32:20.760 profoundly unhealthy

00:32:23.640 about spending your entire life

00:32:25.960 on the internet

00:32:28.360 engaged in a toxic forum

00:32:30.520 that maybe

00:32:32.520 that maybe we owe

00:32:33.400 these people

00:32:34.600 a little bit of

00:32:39.800 patronizing

00:32:40.600 or a kick in the pants.

00:32:44.440 Actually,

00:32:45.080 why don't you leave

00:32:48.040 your basement or apartment

00:32:50.440 and get out there

00:32:53.320 and throw a frisbee around

00:32:55.400 as opposed to

00:32:57.960 living your life

00:32:59.880 obsessively harassing

00:33:03.000 and arguing about 0.72

00:33:05.320 various transsexual 0.98

00:33:07.880 Twitch streamers

00:33:09.200 who you have worked yourself up

00:33:11.760 into a frenzy 1.00

00:33:12.600 to the point that you want to kill them. 1.00

00:33:14.200 maybe we owe it to you 1.00

00:33:18.440 to, as it were

00:33:19.800 force you to be free.

00:33:22.680 That is through the power of the government

00:33:26.280 compel you to be a better person

00:33:29.880 and to get outside a little bit

00:33:32.680 touch the grass

00:33:33.880 feel the fresh air

00:33:36.520 have the warm sunshine on your skin

00:33:40.760 and do something with your life

00:33:43.160 outside of

00:33:45.320 existing on Kiwi farms.

00:33:48.760 Might the users of these platforms

00:33:51.080 be the ultimate victims?

00:33:53.880 And when we engage in the kind of

00:33:56.760 tedious moralizing

00:33:58.920 of Glenn Greenwald

00:34:02.200 and any sort of free speech absolutism

00:34:05.400 are we really losing sight

00:34:08.360 of a much deeper issue?

00:34:11.480 So anyway, there you are.

00:34:15.000 For now, that is my argument.

00:34:20.680 I have some other

00:34:22.680 I think there's a whole other layer to this

00:34:26.760 that would involve the

00:34:30.520 theory of value.

00:34:32.920 I guess there's a reason I brought up Karl Marx,

00:34:35.160 but I will save that for a little bit.

00:34:38.440 But surely I have inspired some kind of response

00:34:44.600 to my outrageous

00:34:49.320 assumption that free speech actually should be censored

00:34:53.080 and that, in fact, the base legal basis for free speech is flawed in its reasoning.

00:35:02.120 So if anyone would like to talk, please

00:35:05.800 please make a request and I will let you in.

00:35:19.560 Okay.

00:35:20.040 Okay.

00:35:23.960 All right.

00:35:25.960 Yazid,

00:35:27.640 you have the floor.

00:35:28.520 You have to unmute yourself.

00:35:43.720 Yazid, you can speak, but you have to unmute yourself. 0.79

00:35:46.120 Okay.

00:35:51.080 I will go to white. 0.95

00:35:53.880 So you have the floor.

00:35:55.400 Yeah, that clip where Tucker has the colonel on and he's saying that Russia is going to win,

00:36:03.400 blah, blah, blah.

00:36:04.120 I guess what I want to say about that is I'm not sure any Fox News viewers have a clue what's going on.

00:36:14.760 So I don't know.

00:36:15.880 I mean, about the Russian Ukraine situation.

00:36:19.000 So I don't know if that makes his words more or less dangerous because they're so focused on inflation

00:36:26.040 that they might just, it might just go in one ear and out the other.

00:36:30.920 You know what I mean?

00:36:33.240 Absolutely.

00:36:34.520 It's not like this person came on and said, I want to offer a, you know, reasonable critique or, you know,

00:36:45.220 let's try to see things through Russian eyes or something like that.

00:36:49.840 All of those things are obviously reasonable and, you know, worthwhile discussing.

00:36:56.000 But no, we're dealing with the American public that, you know, what is it?

00:37:03.000 40% of them believe that chocolate milk comes from brown cows.

00:37:08.160 And like a huge percentage of the American public thinks the election was stolen.

00:37:13.820 I mean, that was a total top-down initiative started from Trump's Twitter account.

00:37:20.660 They believe all sorts of nonsense.

00:37:23.700 And so, you know, I think maybe there's a kind of like levels to this.

00:37:28.820 I mean, there are places for like reasoned critiques and, you know, alternative views and so on.

00:37:38.980 But that's not really the world we live in.

00:37:42.140 The world we live in now is that you can say these crazy things that will trigger a certain audience

00:37:50.660 and then push them into, you know, just total nonsense land, basically.

00:37:59.400 You know, Putin invaded Ukraine to stop the bio labs because Anthony Fauci was about to create a new pandemic or something. 0.72

00:38:09.360 So Putin saved millions.

00:38:10.460 I mean, I've heard that or variations on that.

00:38:15.460 A large percentage of the population, a significant percentage, probably believes that.

00:38:21.420 And again, all of the news from sources that many of which are liberally biased, no question.

00:38:30.360 But sources that are at least acting in good faith to a large degree and are attempting to talk about reality.

00:38:42.820 And also, I would add, you could also get news of the war from Russian fanboy sources who are saying the same thing, basically.

00:38:53.200 Russians with Russians with Russians with attitude, so to speak or Kim Iverson, Kim Iverson. 0.85

00:39:02.580 Yes. I don't know what she's saying these days, but yeah, they're they're they're basically saying the same thing as the New York Times.

00:39:09.720 They're basically saying the lines have significantly changed this offensive in the east is making a you know, you know, it's been a huge win for Ukraine.

00:39:21.820 And actually, this brings up all these important questions about, you know, is is Russia and Putin willing to actually declare war and not consider this a special military operation?

00:39:33.880 Can he, you know, mobilize his country? I mean, these are really important questions that need to be discussed.

00:39:43.540 But again, you go on Fox News and there's some 75 year old, you know, stuff or there's some whacked out, you know, social media addicts watching this.

00:39:56.260 And they're like, oh, whoa, yeah, you know, fake news, you know, Russia's winning like they're about to just take over Kiev tomorrow.

00:40:05.180 You know, that's just wrong. Yeah. Well, only that is acting in absolute bad faith and polluting the public sphere.

00:40:16.160 Yeah, they keep going on. I mean, Tucker and that, you know, kind of whiny voice of his, he just keeps going on and on.

00:40:26.000 They've spent six billion dollars to help Ukraine. It's like, well, yeah, no shit. It got invaded. 0.99

00:40:35.480 Yeah, I mean, like, like, like, from our elites point of view, democracy is being threatened.

00:40:44.900 You know, the whole the whole thing, the whole, you know, what it's all about, liberal democracy.

00:40:51.220 So they can't just stand there and do nothing.

00:40:53.760 At the same time, they really can't send Americans over there because, you know, we got to watch Game of Thrones.

00:41:01.280 Yeah. No, I mean, I don't I don't think the elite I think the elite at least worries about the war getting out of hand.

00:41:07.720 But also, you know, there are serious implications for Europe and NATO that we're involved in in this war.

00:41:16.660 Obviously, Ukraine's not a member of NATO, but you can't just pretend that they shouldn't care about this or something.

00:41:24.000 You know, like J.D. Vance or Marjorie Taylor Greene were like, I don't care two ways or the other.

00:41:27.920 What happens over in Ukraine? You know, I just care about my mama here at home.

00:41:33.200 You know, yeah, I mean, that's that's just really unsophisticated thinking.

00:41:37.400 I mean, you've got I mean, in the eyes of the elite, not necessarily me, but in the eyes of the elite.

00:41:47.040 Vladimir Putin is a dictator now, probably the elections are all rigged in the elites point of view.

00:41:56.340 He's a dictator and you've got a dictator going in to a liberal democratic country.

00:42:04.060 I guess I guess you could say a liberal capitalist democracy.

00:42:08.220 And, you know, you can't do that.

00:42:10.800 That's like the cardinal sin.

00:42:13.800 For our elite, you can't just invade a liberal capitalist democracy and take it over.

00:42:19.340 I mean, like, what are they supposed to do?

00:42:21.100 And and if if Russia won, I don't think they're going to win. 0.62

00:42:28.320 But let's say they had gone in there and won in like a week or whatever.

00:42:32.780 Just, you know, hypothetical.

00:42:34.920 You know, would they stop at Ukraine or would they kind of start, you know, pushing into other countries? 0.85

00:42:40.240 I mean, so at that point, it could get really out of hand.

00:42:43.920 And I'm sure at that point, and that's a big what if I mean, it's not going to happen.

00:42:48.620 It's got like a one percent chance of happening.

00:42:50.460 But if they did conquer Ukraine and keep pushing into the other countries, the conservatives would

00:42:55.600 get back on Fox News and go, oh, Biden's weak.

00:42:58.560 He should have sent more money to Ukraine. 1.00

00:43:01.160 So they're just, you know, they're just full of shit, really. 0.99

00:43:04.440 It's just the opposite, opposite of what the Democrats want. 1.00

00:43:08.500 Yeah, exactly.

00:43:09.600 They're operating in bad faith, basically.

00:43:13.920 Yeah, like this never would have happened under Trump or, you know, yeah, or if Trump

00:43:20.180 were in there or some other Republican were in there, let's say, talking big about Russia,

00:43:26.200 they would start talking about how the Democrats, you know, are peace next or whatever.

00:43:32.840 Yeah, it's just not it's just totally unserious discourse.

00:43:38.820 Oh, and can I say one thing about just freedom of speech in general?

00:43:43.920 Yeah.

00:43:46.100 I've kind of become obsessed with Carl Schmitt the past year, like every day and all these

00:43:52.220 lectures all over YouTube and I listen to him and some of them are actually quite good

00:43:56.120 and not all of them are from, you know, guys like us.

00:43:59.820 A lot of them are more from leftists.

00:44:02.180 And I think they're very fair with Schmitt.

00:44:05.180 And I mean, they always do the obligatory.

00:44:07.040 He was an unrepentant national socialist, blah, blah, blah.

00:44:10.100 But then they really get into some good stuff.

00:44:12.420 And I've learned quite a bit.

00:44:14.540 And the you know, the main idea I take from Schmitt not is not the friend enemy distinction,

00:44:20.240 but the idea of depoliticization.

00:44:25.480 And I feel like the number one thing that has depoliticized man is freedom of speech,

00:44:33.040 because there's so many ideas, you know, so you could just every day you could shop a different idea.

00:44:39.700 And so that kind of increases individualism.

00:44:43.580 Does that does that make any sense to you?

00:44:45.440 Yeah.

00:44:45.960 That kind of makes sense.

00:44:47.460 It makes sense.

00:44:48.540 I mean, one defense of free speech that I've heard and actually while I was at the gym,

00:44:55.580 I just hopped on was casually listening to another space by Bartomeu is that there's this libertarian assumption that in a way speech just doesn't matter.

00:45:09.700 That's kind of Glenn Greenwald's assumption about Kiwi farms like what you know, it's I guess that,

00:45:15.440 you know, there's a famous Latin phrase about, you know, about matters of taste.

00:45:18.640 We won't dispute, which basically says, like, you know, we shouldn't get into an argument about whether key lime pie or cheesecake is better.

00:45:27.920 You know, it's it's just a matter of taste.

00:45:29.900 There's no correct answer.

00:45:31.660 You can't rationally arrive at a conclusion like that.

00:45:34.180 But I think libertarians or people like that almost believe that about speech that, oh, it's just words, words, words, words.

00:45:42.080 You know, words never hurt anybody.

00:45:45.000 You know, you can't you can't hit someone over the head.

00:45:47.960 That's like, you know, non-aggression principle.

00:45:50.460 But just people talking, whatever.

00:45:52.020 It's just it's basically assuming that language doesn't have any meaning ultimately or some variation on that.

00:45:59.660 And I think that's absolutely incorrect.

00:46:03.940 Language has power.

00:46:05.400 Otherwise, you wouldn't use it.

00:46:08.260 And I'm not equating language with violence.

00:46:10.400 Obviously, there's a distinct important distinction to be made. 0.96

00:46:13.380 But the notion that you can't change someone's behavior or in some ways make someone worse or better through language is ridiculous.

00:46:24.800 If you believe that there is such a thing as a book, you also believe that there's such a thing as a bad book.

00:46:30.240 And so I think there is a kind of depoliticization going on just in the sense that, like, you know, we don't believe that any of this we don't take our words seriously because we don't fundamentally believe that any of this matters.

00:46:51.260 And I think that is actually a very that's a naive place to be.

00:46:58.480 And I just think it's a really bad place to be.

00:47:01.140 I mean, one of the things that, as you guys can tell, maybe from like a tweet thread I did yesterday, one of the things that just like drives me up the wall with the dissident right or the magosphere or whatever,

00:47:19.060 is just this like total lack of seriousness when it comes to these personalities.

00:47:27.620 Now, obviously, everyone gets things wrong and everyone, you know, will kind of be off or whatever.

00:47:36.880 That's fine.

00:47:38.060 Everyone misses the mark.

00:47:40.180 I miss the mark as much as anyone else misses the mark.

00:47:43.700 But you almost consciously try to miss the mark in order to give good vibes to your fans. 0.97

00:47:55.960 It's ignorance. 0.99

00:47:57.060 Pure ignorance.

00:47:58.660 Well, it's worse than ignorance.

00:48:00.900 Like, I mean, I use the example and granted, it's kind of it's comical of Tim Pool. 0.99

00:48:05.520 But like, whether that is simply a fact that he's stupid or he's catering to his audience or whatever, but the fact that you will just say stuff that is just demonstrably manifestly idiotic, but gives your fans good vibes. 0.99

00:48:27.520 There's just, I despise that with my bone marrow. 1.00

00:48:36.320 I despise those people. 1.00

00:48:38.100 And, you know, I don't know, at some point, like this notion that you have some right to just pollute the public space with your just idiotic grift is, it's just extremely discouraging. 1.00

00:49:00.720 And it's a wonder how these people get platforms. 0.98

00:49:07.440 It's honestly astonishing how they get a huge platform and stuff like that.

00:49:13.140 It's crazy.

00:49:14.120 Some of these guys have like one million, two million followers that they influence on a daily.

00:49:19.740 Yeah, Tim Pool has millions of followers.

00:49:21.860 The reason is that they are not operating on a basis of truth or reality.

00:49:29.380 They're operating on a kind of advertising basis of A-B testing and pleasing their audience.

00:49:37.800 Now, look, everyone pleases their audience to some degree.

00:49:42.860 Obviously, I'm not unreasonable about this.

00:49:46.800 You don't want to just go around, you know, poking fun at the people listening to you.

00:49:51.120 I get it.

00:49:52.460 But there's something worse when you are presenting yourself as offering a perspective on the world or as reporting news or discussing the news. 0.99

00:50:03.480 And again, through your just total stupidity, which might be the case with Tim Pool, or through malice, you are just misinforming them and kind of worse, disconnecting your audience from that. 0.95

00:50:22.180 I mean, there is something just so profoundly despicable about this that needless to say, if Tim Pool ever faces any deplatforming issue, I would be the last person to speak up for that person, for that guy. 0.99

00:50:41.400 But Richard.

00:50:42.220 I mean, you have to have a basis of, like, we're trying to – we have concepts, language, and there's reality, and we're trying to, like, find a match here.

00:50:52.000 Not that everyone's going to be right, of course, but, like, you're trying to do that. 0.98

00:50:55.760 But if you aren't trying to do that, then just this notion of, like, I need to, you know, vehemently defend your right to lie and grift and just be a moron is just, you know – 0.98

00:51:09.760 But, you know, I'll call you on that one. 0.99

00:51:13.760 Let me think about it.

00:51:14.600 Like, so my question is, like –

00:51:17.020 Yeah, but a lot of these dissident right – and when I say dissident right, I mean, you know, everything from Tim Pool to, you know, NJP, you know?

00:51:28.540 I'm kind of, like, broadly using –

00:51:30.700 Sure.

00:51:30.940 Man, I've been reading some stuff lately about some of these organizations, and there's some evidence they're getting money from Russia.

00:51:40.940 So God knows what they actually believe in.

00:51:43.940 You know what I mean?

00:51:44.520 It's like they'll just say anything.

00:51:46.440 Yeah, as long as they get their money in it.

00:51:48.200 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:51:49.580 Exactly.

00:51:50.740 I have a question.

00:51:51.500 If anyone thinks that that kind of thing is not happening – not that – I mean, obviously, these are – any accusation should be examined in detail.

00:52:01.020 But if any of you think that that kind of stuff isn't happening, you need to wake up because it is happening, and it happens on a very large scale.

00:52:13.480 And it happens through kind of nudges and subtle kind of points.

00:52:20.760 It is a very real thing.

00:52:22.560 Well, it's gotten to a ridiculous level because it's like free speech.

00:52:25.600 Somewhere along the line, it has turned into free anonymous speech.

00:52:29.080 Like, you're money from Russia, and you don't have to disclose it.

00:52:33.100 That's the problem I've seen where that's kind of –

00:52:36.480 I'll jump in if nobody else wants to speak.

00:52:38.860 I mean, what I was reading was –

00:52:41.100 I want to make a – I want to ask a question.

00:52:44.220 What do you think about Richard Hanania and Michael Tracer's silence for the last two days?

00:52:51.540 Oh, not surprising at all.

00:52:54.960 I know a lot about Richard Hanania.

00:52:59.660 I have known him for a long time.

00:53:02.080 I'm always this pro-Russia.

00:53:03.220 So it does – now you can say the same thing about me.

00:53:06.380 Say I quit.

00:53:06.980 So obviously I give people the ability to evolve, but I also, like, see these recurring talking points places, and it does make me rather suspicious.

00:53:22.800 Yeah, in terms of, like, look, this is the other, like, big factor, which is that there's been an explosion in the alternative media.

00:53:36.080 First off, just due to the web.

00:53:38.180 I think much more so due to just social media and things that are like social media, like YouTube, where you have followings and you're, you know, building an audience or something.

00:53:48.580 Obviously that can be great, but we are, like, past a point of no return where, you know, no – if Russia gave millions to the New York Times or something, that would be a scandal.

00:54:06.880 I mean, people are still talking about Walter Durante, and I don't even know if Walter Durante took money from the Soviet Union.

00:54:16.500 I think he was one of these typical, you know, head-in-the-sky communists, basically.

00:54:23.000 But that's a scandal to this day, and needless to say, if the Kremlin were funding, you know, the San Francisco Chronicle, that would be just a sky-high scandal that people would never stop talking about.

00:54:39.260 But, like, you don't have to do that.

00:54:42.140 But you can give nudges to alternative people, and it kind of, like, the constellation of those different personalities, it kind of adds up to the same thing as we're doing the Washington Post or something.

00:54:59.000 And so it really is a serious factor.

00:55:01.440 I mean, these people do have influence.

00:55:03.860 And it's not just all a joke, which is this weird kind of thing about alternative media.

00:55:10.680 It's very similar to when, like, Jon Stewart, I think, was correctly criticized that whenever someone would push back on Jon Stewart, he would always say, hey, listen, buddy, I'm on Comedy Central.

00:55:26.760 We run a fake comedy show.

00:55:29.620 It's not real, you know.

00:55:30.900 And, like, you know, after my program, we have, you know, some comedian doing fart jokes.

00:55:38.340 So, you know, why are you pushing back?

00:55:40.160 But then when he wanted to say something, and very often, I mean, say things that I agree with.

00:55:47.180 You know, the Iraq War is bad or whatever.

00:55:49.700 When he wanted to say something, he could be taken seriously.

00:55:52.720 But whenever he received criticism, it's like, oh, I'm just a comedian, man.

00:55:56.640 And you see the same thing with alternative media, where it's like, why are you attacking me?

00:56:03.020 I'm just a live streamer, bro.

00:56:05.320 Like, I'm just doing my thing.

00:56:06.740 You know, why?

00:56:07.060 It's like, no one's listening anyway.

00:56:08.760 I mean, come on.

00:56:09.480 It's just like my personal account, whatever.

00:56:11.560 And it's like, no.

00:56:12.140 This is just a conversation between two people.

00:56:15.300 I'm not putting up my views.

00:56:16.320 I'm not imposing a specific worldview or policy initiative here.

00:56:19.820 It's just a conversation, you know.

00:56:22.020 They become ultimate victims then.

00:56:23.780 And that's when they act like victims.

00:56:26.880 Yes.

00:56:27.200 Like, why are you telling me, man?

00:56:28.360 Why are you telling me?

00:56:29.520 What do you mean? 1.00

00:56:30.380 You're speaking stupidity. 1.00

00:56:32.900 Obviously, people are going to call you out on it. 1.00

00:56:35.440 You know what I'm saying?

00:56:36.860 So, I mean, I've got a question.

00:56:41.660 I've got a question for Spencer.

00:56:43.920 Yeah, yeah.

00:56:44.300 So, you know, I look at people like Alex Jones or Milo or any of these guys who have been censored heavily or, you know, Nick Fuentes or any of these guys who have been heavily censored throughout the years.

00:57:02.680 And I see that you still have your Twitter account.

00:57:07.660 And I see, I guess my question would be, how is it that you've avoided the banhammer, you know?

00:57:15.920 Aren't you, this is, it's very unusual to me that someone who says controversial things is able to avoid the banhammer while simultaneously not being, dare I say it, a fed.

00:57:32.000 Oh, yeah, that's a great comment.

00:57:35.260 Yeah, the idea that I've avoided deplatforming is rather ridiculous.

00:57:41.000 I experienced it very intensely in 2017 and afterward.

00:57:47.900 And, yes, I have held on to my Twitter account.

00:57:52.200 Other people haven't.

00:57:53.940 I also pretty rigorously follow the TOS of Twitter.

00:57:59.500 But the idea that I haven't faced deplatforming is rather absurd.

00:58:06.320 And the also, additionally, the idea that, like, there was no reason for Milo to be banned.

00:58:14.060 I mean, again, this kind of gets back to this notion that I was talking about previously, where you absolutely have the right to go hold up a placard on the sidewalk of your town that says, you know, say no to war or something.

00:58:30.440 You don't have the right to follow someone home and yell at him.

00:58:34.460 And whatever you think about Milo's victims, he was absolutely engaging in textbook harassment of them.

00:58:43.500 And, again, it's like, and I don't know how old you are, but it's like with young people only on the internet, you have this, like, bizarre notion of speech or whatever where you can just do anything.

00:59:01.560 And that has never been the case in human history.

00:59:07.660 You know, I don't know the reason, I can't, I don't, I can't remember offhand the exact reason why Nick Fuentes was kicked off Twitter.

00:59:20.540 As I've been saying for a while, I think Nick Fuentes is going to have very serious legal problems, due to the fact that he was involved in a, you know, some kind of raid on the Capitol, and an attempt to prevent the functioning of government.

00:59:39.540 And you can't just pull out a free speech card every time you guys do things that are just obviously against the law.

00:59:52.000 Now, I also think that Twitter bans people who don't deserve to be banned.

00:59:57.740 I mean, we're in a difficult situation where the whole free speech thing needs to be cracked on some level.

01:00:05.120 And I can actually talk about that in tribulation.

01:00:10.620 But just this, like, you know, let's defend Kiwi Farms, let's defend Milo, let's defend Nick Fuentes.

01:00:17.800 I mean, there are real reasons why these people were deplatformed.

01:00:25.140 I just want to add, with the free speech thing, a lot of it's like absolutist defenders.

01:00:31.200 They like to call upon, like, a great heritage.

01:00:33.240 But this idea that every single idea has utility enough to be argued on the, you know, on the platform of ideas is very new.

01:00:41.940 It's very contemporary.

01:00:44.520 You know what I mean?

01:00:45.080 And to that end, I think that there are just some things that have no utility, you know, and should it not be given a platform?

01:00:54.060 Like, I don't think that, well, I think that makes me an extremist in the eyes of most, in some people.

01:01:01.200 But, you know, I think it's just not the case.

01:01:03.960 It's not an extreme position.

01:01:05.260 It shouldn't be seen as well.

01:01:07.340 Yeah.

01:01:08.660 That's facts.

01:01:09.460 That's facts.

01:01:10.620 Yeah.

01:01:10.900 Like, QAnon has no value.

01:01:12.720 There's no reason that QAnon needs a platform.

01:01:15.140 It doesn't have anything to stop.

01:01:16.320 Well, to speak on Fuentes for a second, I think he was banned, if I remember correctly, for something that was deemed anti-Semitic, if I'm remembering correctly.

01:01:30.420 I don't think that was major.

01:01:31.880 It might have been, but I think the bigger issue was he was, much like Ali Alexander, his collaborator, he was a blue-checked, you know, authenticated user who was involved, heavily involved with January 6th.

01:01:53.880 I guess, you know, you look at these guys like that, who, Ali Alexander, Nick Fuentes, Milo, and they were involved with walking around, you know, the Capitol, not even going in.

01:02:20.700 Oh, that's what they were involved with?

01:02:22.460 That they were out on a walk?

01:02:25.400 Is that why they were arrested?

01:02:27.420 It's funny.

01:02:28.160 I actually went on a walk around the U.S. Capitol not too long ago, and for some reason, I wasn't arrested.

01:02:35.060 Why do you think that is?

01:02:36.980 You're a liberal?

01:02:41.120 Well, I mean, look at Brett Kavanaugh.

01:02:44.100 During the initiative, there was a total storming of the Capitol by all these liberals, and they completely stormed the Capitol.

01:02:52.460 In some of these speakers that—

01:02:54.580 Yeah, you know why?

01:02:55.900 You know why?

01:02:57.880 Well, hold on.

01:02:59.560 Let me finish.

01:03:00.220 You know why?

01:03:00.980 Hold on.

01:03:01.460 Hold on.

01:03:01.840 You know why?

01:03:02.600 Well, no, I wasn't finished speaking.

01:03:04.080 No, they did that because they already won.

01:03:06.240 Hold on.

01:03:07.720 I wasn't finished speaking.

01:03:09.560 They already won.

01:03:11.220 Okay?

01:03:11.500 That's why they can do that, and we can't.

01:03:14.360 They won already.

01:03:16.560 Also, I mean, look, I don't know the exact details.

01:03:20.800 I've heard this line of attack of there was a storming of the Capitol.

01:03:28.200 No one there was going to disrupt the transfer of power.

01:03:31.720 No one there was—I mean, if they claimed this is a revolution, it was, you know, it was said in a much direct way by conservatives.

01:03:43.000 I mean, I don't know.

01:03:44.100 There's just no comparison with those two events.

01:03:46.360 But, Richard, this line that I always hear from people in the dissonant right is, well, the liberals got out with it.

01:03:55.640 I mean, why can't we do—well, think about it, because they won.

01:04:02.280 Yeah, I mean—

01:04:03.140 It's really simple.

01:04:04.240 They won.

01:04:04.900 I'm not going to deny that there's, like, huge bias.

01:04:06.880 I mean, the BLM thing in 2020, there was a—there is a difference in the sense that the BLM thing was anointed from on high.

01:04:19.340 The BLM thing was mostly peaceful in the sense that you had all of these, you know, goofy liberals waving their hands and, you know, kneeling and all this kind of stuff.

01:04:33.060 But even the stuff that started to get violent, and obviously it did get violent to a point that supporters of some level saw it as counter-effective, counterproductive.

01:04:48.180 But there was no direct assault on the functioning of the government.

01:04:55.520 And I'm sure that they, you know, knocked the windows out of a post office or did something in a public property.

01:05:04.280 I'm positive they did.

01:05:06.060 But at no point were they declaring that they were going to do something as dramatic as that.

01:05:11.700 The one instance that was basically treated as benign hippiedom was the, you know, the rapper in Seattle who kind of created an anarchist—anarchic village for, you know, a week or something.

01:05:28.280 And it was basically treated as, oh, this is the summer of 68 all over again.

01:05:32.040 It was treated as not really capable of doing anything.

01:05:37.000 January 6th was absolutely buffoonish, but at the same time, it wasn't just a bunch of guys getting drunk in the Washington Mall.

01:05:50.220 I mean, they, you know, if you go and get drunk and raise hay in the Washington Mall, you'll probably be arrested as well.

01:05:54.900 You're not going to spend months or years in jail.

01:05:57.820 It's that it was a concerted effort from the town to prevent the transfer of power.

01:06:05.140 And even if it was buffoonish, this notion that it just, like, materialized, you know, it was just, like, random Americans just happened upon the mall and decided to speak their mind.

01:06:17.960 I mean, that's just such a fantastical notion of what it actually was.

01:06:24.140 It was buffoonish as hell, but it was real.

01:06:26.240 It was buffoonish because of the guys that were there. 0.89

01:06:32.520 Had they been Navy SEALs, it would have been a whole different situation.

01:06:38.220 If they were even a little competent, they've gotten to, like, more than a few congressmen.

01:06:46.100 If they were even a little competent.

01:06:48.720 Yeah.

01:06:50.000 I mean, but they weren't.

01:06:51.960 I mean, it was a bunch of jack-offs. 1.00

01:06:53.940 But that doesn't matter, like, attempted murder is still criminal.

01:06:57.740 Come on.

01:06:59.140 You can't storm into Congress and not expect to get in trouble for that.

01:07:04.800 Right.

01:07:05.100 Like, I can't.

01:07:06.440 They did it for Brett Kavanaugh.

01:07:08.140 They literally stormed the entire.

01:07:10.580 How many police there?

01:07:12.320 They did not storm it in an aggressive manner with zip ties like those books on January 6th did. 0.96

01:07:21.480 It was a bunch of just shit-lib vegans that were crying about Kavanaugh because whatever he was accused of doing. 0.97

01:07:32.780 It was, like, you can't equate a 120-pound shit-lib vegan to, like, a dude decked out with zip ties. 1.00

01:07:42.380 Come on. 0.94

01:07:43.000 They also didn't break through any police lines.

01:07:44.300 There weren't, they didn't, like, bust through police barricades during the campaign.

01:07:47.500 I didn't mean to be mean to vegans.

01:07:49.220 Vegans are okay, I guess.

01:07:50.700 It's whatever.

01:07:51.180 I just wanted to add something as well because there is a particular bit of footage where, and I'm British, so I don't know the layout of the building or anything like that, but they're going up.

01:08:02.780 There's a crowd, and they're going up some staircase, and it's a black police officer, and he's constantly retreating up and up the staircase, and he's telling them to get back and stay down.

01:08:14.540 And they repeatedly go through the same process, up a flight of stairs, he tells them, he goes back up a flight of stairs, they follow him over and over and over again.

01:08:22.880 From what I've seen, it's like the police are actually quite tamed, or they were quite, you know, reserved in their response.

01:08:31.300 So this idea that, you know, I think there's this idea among Magorites that it's like, oh, you know, they immediately cracked down.

01:08:38.360 I don't think that was, that's not what I saw.

01:08:40.760 Just, you know, with your own eyes, you know what I mean?

01:08:42.580 It was, it was ambiguous, because particularly at the beginning, at the first breach, you had some of these scenes like that police officer who was almost getting crushed by the door, and you have these scenes that, you know, maybe they are a bit overblown in retrospect, but like that woman who testified saying it was like a war zone or something.

01:09:07.180 I mean, you know, a bit overblown, granted, but I don't doubt that like, clearly people could have died in that, in that scenario.

01:09:17.480 And there was a lot of like, really serious pushing and shoving, smashing of windows and so on.

01:09:23.760 Now you also have scenes of like,

01:09:26.080 I'm coming at it from the, sorry, I'm coming at it from the claim.

01:09:28.640 You also have scenes of like, particularly later on, of the police just effectively letting people in.

01:09:35.180 And so, and I think that was kind of like a tactic at some point.

01:09:40.520 And, and also a lot of people just, you know, they just seem less aggressive and dangerous.

01:09:47.020 Like if you see 20 proud boys, like middle-aged men who lift weights and, you know, have beards or whatever, you're going to be a lot more than like some goofy kid or some old woman or something. 0.98

01:10:00.400 So like, it's just the whole thing.

01:10:03.620 Yeah. 1.00

01:10:03.940 It was a complete shit show. 1.00

01:10:05.980 And if you want to focus on like this five minutes of footage, you can say, this is purely peaceful. 1.00

01:10:12.580 If you want to focus on this five minutes, you can say, this was purely hilarious.

01:10:16.700 It was just a bunch of yahoos making hay. 1.00

01:10:19.900 Okay.

01:10:20.320 You can focus on this five minutes. 1.00

01:10:21.860 You can say, holy shit. 1.00

01:10:23.340 They were about to literally take over the government and they were absolutely violent. 0.99

01:10:28.160 It's, it's all, it's all correct.

01:10:30.520 It's all of that was there. 1.00

01:10:31.820 It was a shit show. 1.00

01:10:34.400 That dude with the zip ties. 1.00

01:10:36.740 I watched this video of him and I was just on the ground rolling.

01:10:41.400 Like that dude was so into it.

01:10:43.800 And he had the, like, he had like a hundred zip ties.

01:10:48.560 I was like, I thought like maybe it was just like a couple of zip ties.

01:10:52.520 He had like a big roll of them on his side.

01:10:55.900 And I mean, he's like looking around, like, like he has this intense look in his eyes.

01:11:01.500 Yeah.

01:11:01.960 And he's like looking around and I'm like, holy cow, this dude is Rambo or something. 0.91

01:11:06.740 Like that's, it was funny, man.

01:11:10.120 It was really actually funny.

01:11:12.540 I think a lot of people were, were active.

01:11:15.400 My favorite scene was this lady who, she got interviewed by some like liberal journalist 1.00

01:11:21.500 or whatever.

01:11:22.680 And she came up to the journalist.

01:11:24.780 I think she, I think she even like went to the journalist to get, you know, her, say

01:11:28.780 her piece.

01:11:29.580 And she was like, they used tear gas on me.

01:11:32.560 Like they pushed me down.

01:11:34.480 Like, you know, I don't know what's happening.

01:11:35.980 Is this America or something?

01:11:37.440 And the journalist asked like, okay, so you're, you're claiming abuse.

01:11:41.020 Like what were you here for?

01:11:42.340 And she was like, it's a revolution.

01:11:45.220 So like, listen, if it is a revolution, you have basically wagered your life.

01:11:53.820 Like you, the idea that they use tear gas should be like the least of your concerns.

01:12:00.020 It becomes more.

01:12:00.840 If it's not a revolution that I agree.

01:12:03.660 Like if, if you're like hanging out on the Capitol, holding up a sign and a policeman tear

01:12:09.840 gases you, obviously that's outrageous, but you know, it's like, it's choose one, you

01:12:17.300 know, like they're not just going to let you do this. 0.97

01:12:20.100 And according to you, they're all like satanic fascist or something.

01:12:24.340 So like, what, what, what surprises you about the fact that they used tear gas that is non

01:12:31.700 lethal temporary wins that are annoying, but not dangerous.

01:12:37.360 So, so, um, from, from a number of comments, I would deduce that, uh, you, you maybe are

01:12:44.980 not a fed, you know, I, I thought that probably if you are a fed, you, you would have most likely

01:12:49.460 just ban me and, uh, shut me up real quick and taking away, uh, uh, speaking, uh, privileges.

01:12:55.680 Right.

01:12:56.360 So, um, uh, look, looking at, uh, what you previously said, like BLM was mostly peaceful,

01:13:03.000 right?

01:13:03.360 I know you're frustrated.

01:13:04.480 I know it's tough to be held accountable for your own, uh, speech, right?

01:13:09.420 You did say that.

01:13:12.880 Uh, yeah, I do agree.

01:13:14.680 I do disagree with that.

01:13:16.060 Um, I think that it was a huge disturbance, maybe, maybe the largest civil disturbance that's

01:13:23.000 ever occurred in the United States.

01:13:25.200 And you, uh, think that it was mostly peaceful.

01:13:28.800 Yes.

01:13:29.440 Mostly means at least the majority of all of it was peaceful.

01:13:36.340 I mean, you said it was a disturbance.

01:13:38.120 I mean, I guess I could more or less agree with that language, but yeah, the vast majority

01:13:43.900 It could both be a disturbance and mostly peaceful.

01:13:46.060 Like, could you shut up and let Richard talk?

01:13:48.260 I mean, could you, could you please?

01:13:50.740 I'm in control of the space.

01:13:52.240 I'm the moderator.

01:13:53.660 Yeah. 0.95

01:13:54.100 I mean, a bunch of retards are just chiming in. 1.00

01:13:57.280 Okay. 0.95

01:13:58.640 Um, yeah.

01:14:00.040 I mean, mostly means that the majority, and I would say the vast majority of it was peaceful

01:14:06.720 stuff.

01:14:07.660 I mean, it was absolutely a protest and they disrupted traffic.

01:14:12.020 Like, of course it got very violent.

01:14:14.340 Um, and I think actually just got totally out of control.

01:14:18.880 And, uh, there's good reason actually why like public support for BLM declined significantly.

01:14:27.340 I think they had won over a lot of like mainstream Republicans and liberals actually at the beginning

01:14:32.900 when it was basically like a Christian revival rally.

01:14:36.220 And they were like waving hands and getting on their knees and talking about their guilt

01:14:41.220 and whatever.

01:14:42.420 And then when it flipped over into, and granted, you could see that early on, but, but when

01:14:48.320 it, by the late hot summer, when it was flipping over into like flames, then yeah, it got out

01:14:54.480 of hand and the establishment kind of cracked down on it.

01:14:57.740 Like the, look, we don't see BLM protests anymore right now.

01:15:03.440 At some point it lost the kind of like anointing by the establishment that it had.

01:15:08.800 And that's significant.

01:15:10.940 Sorry, Richard, can I ask you a question?

01:15:12.500 If that's okay.

01:15:13.060 Sure.

01:15:14.280 Um, do you think we'll ever get close to anything like true synthesis of the January 6th

01:15:19.700 event?

01:15:20.000 Uh, and how so, if so?

01:15:23.300 A true synthesis?

01:15:25.960 Like understanding of it, you know, because like you said, yeah.

01:15:30.920 Um, well, you know, I guess maybe no in the sense that, uh, like, do we really, you know,

01:15:40.000 do we have like a true understanding of an event like 9-11 or something?

01:15:44.780 No, it's, it's so politically contentious.

01:15:48.720 There's so many like variables that it will always be kind of like a, you know, a hotbed

01:15:55.880 of conspiracy theory, but also kind of a hotbed of like ambiguity and sinister stuff as well.

01:16:01.920 I mean, I think that's probably true.

01:16:04.000 And it's been politicized to such a degree that like people are terrified of looking

01:16:08.900 at it straight.

01:16:10.040 So, I mean, what, if I said what I said on Fox News, um, I would be like, I would offend

01:16:18.940 them greatly.

01:16:19.740 But also, I'm, I think I would also probably offend MSNBC with some of my other characterizations.

01:16:27.760 So it's hard for anyone to like, look at it. 0.88

01:16:29.940 So, you know, you have to be on MSNBC, you have to be like shrill and it's Trump and maniacs, 0.98

01:16:36.220 fascists or whatever. 0.96

01:16:37.020 And then on, on Fox, it's like, what was going on, man?

01:16:39.660 There is just, you know, it's just a tourist rally, you know?

01:16:43.180 So, you know, you, it's hard to see things straight and it's so politicized that I don't

01:16:50.480 know, but I mean, look, um, what's happening today.

01:16:54.120 I don't know if you saw, but like there are, um, multiple subpoenas.

01:16:58.200 I think there was like 50 subpoenas sent out today about the J6 issue, um, of close confidants

01:17:05.400 with Trump.

01:17:05.960 So the DOJ is pursuing that.

01:17:08.200 That's a legal trial.

01:17:09.600 It's just kind of different maybe than like a historical assessment.

01:17:12.440 But, um, I, I think a lot is going to come out and, um, it's going to be, I mean, I think

01:17:19.860 I'll probably have the same view of it that I have now, which is, it was like a top down

01:17:25.040 inspired bottom up executed circus act.

01:17:31.140 So you think, I'm sorry, sorry if this is too explicit, but you think it was a

01:17:35.240 machination of the Trump campaign?

01:17:38.080 I think they absolutely, they absolutely had that as one way keeping Trump in office.

01:17:45.180 Like the, the, the electors scheme was another, um, there, there were, there were a lot of

01:17:51.240 different options, but that was kind of a final option.

01:17:54.520 And I do think that Trump genuinely wanted to like march with them to the Capitol and

01:18:01.780 inspire Mike Pence to like throw away the electors and do something except the new electors that,

01:18:10.680 that are fraudulent, legally fraudulent or something.

01:18:13.900 And, um, so I do think that they were trying to do that.

01:18:18.200 It did.

01:18:18.500 I mean, that's why I said, it's like, it was like a top down inspired, but bottom up executed

01:18:24.280 coup attempt.

01:18:26.300 And so like, it's just never going to work. 0.96

01:18:29.540 Like, I mean, if you're going to do a coup, if you're going to fuck with the system to

01:18:34.960 that degree, you need to have the military involved. 0.61

01:18:40.540 They have to be totally on board. 0.99

01:18:42.780 I mean, you just, you cannot rely on the fucking proud boys. 0.99

01:18:47.140 I mean, not that they can't do damage or something, but like, it's, it's just bizarre 0.99

01:18:53.040 that they thought that this thing was going to work in some way.

01:18:57.500 That, that's so true.

01:18:59.340 I, and, and I agree with you there, um, that you, you, you can, Hey, my buddy, Jeff is washing 0.82

01:19:06.380 dishes over at the, the fucking, uh, McDonald's and, uh, he's going to help us do this revolution 0.93

01:19:13.480 or whatever. 0.99

01:19:14.000 And so don't worry.

01:19:15.520 The three of us got it.

01:19:16.820 All right.

01:19:17.100 Or we got this under control.

01:19:19.020 Right.

01:19:19.360 So I understand why, um, I like practically, uh, Spencer, you're, you're like pro biologist.

01:19:27.500 You're pro vaccine, you're pro Ukraine. 0.96

01:19:29.720 Right.

01:19:29.920 Do you, do you disagree with any of those three things I just said?

01:19:33.240 Uh, no, go on.

01:19:35.020 Okay.

01:19:35.420 Okay.

01:19:35.980 So, um, I understand, you, you know, you, rather than wait it out, you decided to side

01:19:42.600 with the, the top down power structure rather than wait it out because, um, the populace is

01:19:49.260 against those things.

01:19:50.260 Right.

01:19:50.640 And actually I would add a fourth, um, uh, uh, uh, I would, I would add a, uh, like a,

01:19:55.940 like a fourth principle to what it was.

01:19:58.060 I just said, which is like the tranny gay thing, you know, which is most people are against 0.69

01:20:02.740 all that. 0.92

01:20:03.380 Right.

01:20:03.820 So there's the Biden, the vaccine.

01:20:05.480 I'm not, I'm not aware of that stuff.

01:20:07.900 Okay.

01:20:08.600 Okay.

01:20:09.000 So, all right.

01:20:09.660 Well, okay.

01:20:10.160 We'll disregard that then.

01:20:11.400 So you're, you're with the Biden, the vaccine, the Ukraine thing, and then the tranny 1.00

01:20:15.180 gay thing. 0.87

01:20:15.800 The vaccine was a Trump initiative the last time I checked, uh, initially, um, but really

01:20:24.020 he was never actually, uh, pro mandate.

01:20:26.860 So, so let, let's, let, let me finish real quick.

01:20:30.300 Um, so I think probably where, where you're the, the biggest issue, cause I used to follow

01:20:37.120 you, man.

01:20:37.720 Um, and I, I fell off hard because I just think that you are like, uh, you, you, you went from

01:20:44.540 a leader to a follower and, um, you went from like, uh, leading the people towards something

01:20:50.560 positive to going, um, okay, well, I'm pro Biden.

01:20:54.320 I'm pro you, you went, you went, Hey, I'm going to follow who's ever in charge it to the

01:21:00.040 top because you understand the principle of top down revolution, right?

01:21:03.600 Rather than a bottom up revolution, which is impossible.

01:21:06.740 Right.

01:21:07.160 But you, you, you refuse to wait until, um, the, the collapse, which is inevitable because

01:21:14.180 there will be, because we're already in a decline.

01:21:16.560 The United States, um, is in a decline and will be overtaken by, uh, China, which, uh, is, 0.98

01:21:24.060 uh, initiated by Russia that Russia is a, uh, that, uh, vassal state of China.

01:21:30.300 And so you, you, you were just too impatient.

01:21:34.860 Okay.

01:21:37.800 Can I say something about that?

01:21:39.740 Can I ask you a question?

01:21:40.880 No, could you, no, you can't just let, let, let Spencer respond if you don't mind.

01:21:46.340 I don't really want a huge amount to respond to that because I, I, I mean, I, there, there's

01:21:50.620 some, I, I don't think you're trying to like, uh, offer a, uh, fair representation of me,

01:21:59.080 but it's not like I totally disagree with much of what you said.

01:22:04.480 Um, I don't think you guys should just be planning on a collapse.

01:22:09.580 I, I do think that like a collapse could come tomorrow morning or it could come in 50 years.

01:22:14.820 And, uh, so this just idea of things declining, I mean, there, there are a lot of actually really

01:22:21.840 major countervailing factors.

01:22:23.720 Um, I think American legitimacy recently has actually increased to some extent due to Biden,

01:22:34.120 but I think mostly due to Russia, Russia's invasion of Ukraine.

01:22:38.940 I mean, it's NATO is expanding even in Western and Northern Europe and that's remarkable.

01:22:45.780 And it's becoming more legitimate.

01:22:47.460 Um, so I, I just, I wouldn't count on all this collapse.

01:22:52.620 I wouldn't count on like China taking over the world.

01:22:55.960 I, I kind of agree with Russia, the battle of China, but I don't fully agree with that. 0.62

01:23:02.540 Um, but I, I think you are kind of right in the sense that I, I think populism is just impossible

01:23:10.520 on some level it's, it's, it's so vague.

01:23:13.260 It's just this, it's like an emotion more than any kind of ability to govern or take power

01:23:23.620 or, or, or even have a policy that I just, on some level can't take it seriously.

01:23:31.040 Um, so, I mean, you're kind of right about that.

01:23:36.820 I think you're trying not being, you're clearly not a fan of me or at least any, any more, but

01:23:43.500 I don't think your assessment was like completely wrong.

01:23:46.960 I think there was, there was actually some truth in there.

01:23:52.180 Anyway, I'm going to move on.

01:23:54.500 So I'll remove you from speakers.

01:23:57.000 You can still listen.

01:23:57.680 Um, okay.

01:24:05.540 Uh, let me see here.

01:24:10.460 Goth girl nationalism.

01:24:13.080 Whoa.

01:24:14.540 Okay.

01:24:16.000 Goth girl nationalism.

01:24:23.100 Goth girl, don't let me down.

01:24:27.680 What's your favorite cure album.

01:24:31.940 I'm more of a Smith's fan myself.

01:24:36.380 You're more of a what Smith's fan.

01:24:38.320 Okay, cool.

01:24:40.040 Do you have something to say?

01:24:41.280 You're not a girl. 1.00

01:24:42.280 I don't think listening to your voice.

01:24:44.980 No.

01:24:46.420 Okay.

01:24:48.180 All right, man.

01:24:49.160 Uh, not much of a contribution.

01:24:56.740 Um, enlightened centrist.

01:25:00.460 Uh, Hey Richard.

01:25:01.820 Um, I wanted to ask you something actually.

01:25:05.180 I was wondering about, so January 6th, the people who are denying that Biden won.

01:25:12.480 Um, do you think they really believe it?

01:25:15.200 Like, I know there's a whole bunch of these people like Dave Rubin, Nick Fuentes, Alex Jones,

01:25:21.580 et cetera.

01:25:22.480 Do you think they really believe that Biden actually lost the election?

01:25:27.540 I think it's really, it's complicated.

01:25:31.880 Um, I actually would say that there's a large percentage of them who do.

01:25:39.420 Um, and they, but, but it's not like they've taken a step back and like rationally assess

01:25:50.880 the situation.

01:25:51.660 These are people that are deeply embedded in the MAGA media ecosystem.

01:26:01.140 And it's, it's connected to so many other things.

01:26:05.240 And, and it's connected with like a much deeper anxiety about the world as well.

01:26:12.540 And a kind of fantasy about the world.

01:26:15.520 Well, you, you saw there, there's this interesting, um, report on January 6th, people who have been

01:26:21.200 arrested, uh, by Robert Poppy from UFC, but he said that a lot of them weren't even necessarily

01:26:30.340 red staters.

01:26:31.440 They were red people or red voters, I should say in blue states.

01:26:38.460 So they kind of felt a lot of anxiety.

01:26:41.100 So it's like, it would be more likely that you were from Pennsylvania than you were from

01:26:46.640 Wyoming or Alabama or something.

01:26:50.460 And so I think there's a tremendous amount of anxiety that underlies all this.

01:26:55.560 There is a, just envelopment in a right-wing ecosystem where you just don't hear anything

01:27:03.480 else.

01:27:03.920 And there's this like neo-paranoia about everything said by the mainstream media is fake and a lie

01:27:12.700 or something.

01:27:13.400 And so who can you believe?

01:27:15.480 And there's also a bit of that, um, Pauline Kael effect going on where it's like, um, you

01:27:23.140 know, Pauline Kael famously said, like, how did Nixon win?

01:27:26.600 Like everyone I know voted for a Democrat or something, which is, it's kind of a funny

01:27:31.900 statement.

01:27:32.920 Um, it might be a Bacherful, I don't know, but it's still nevertheless very funny.

01:27:36.500 But, but I think very telling, like, you know, if you're enveloped in that world, you know,

01:27:42.180 every, all of your neighbors and everyone, you know, was like red hot, you know, in favor

01:27:47.180 of Trump.

01:27:47.700 And so it's like, how is it possible that he didn't win?

01:27:51.500 You know, I mean, we just, we just have very difficult, we have a difficult time, like

01:27:55.540 assessing the whole, the big picture.

01:27:59.840 I think this trace back, traces back to the idea of the silent majority.

01:28:04.020 I don't know what your personal thoughts on that are, but I'll tell you mine.

01:28:07.700 I just think it's basically a myth and it has been for not the longest time, but for

01:28:13.260 a while.

01:28:14.500 And, uh, you know, like, like, you know, I'm an outsider, I'm not American, but I think

01:28:20.040 that, I just think that it's, it's ridiculous to think that the election was stolen.

01:28:25.260 When you, when you look at, you know, the, the emissions of MAGA rights themselves, that,

01:28:30.140 you know, there's a lot, there was a lot of propaganda 24 seven against Trump.

01:28:34.020 And I think, because there is no silent majority, I think most people, um, are with the mainstream

01:28:40.300 consensus, which, you know, which is obvious.

01:28:42.780 So I don't, with that, with those two things being the case, I don't see any issues.

01:28:46.580 I, I agree with you to a very large extent, there is still a kind of semblance of a center.

01:28:55.080 And I, I, I do think that like the left gets clapped back when it goes a little too far

01:29:03.020 in that sense.

01:29:04.620 But yeah, I mean, just look at presidential elections, um, uh, basically George W. Bush in 2004

01:29:14.000 and his father in 1988 were the last Republicans to win a substantial majority.

01:29:22.400 And, you know, so it's Clinton, Gore won the majority of the votes, um, Obama won the majority

01:29:31.080 of the votes twice, uh, Clinton won the majority of the votes, Hillary Clinton, that is, um, uh,

01:29:38.940 Biden wins the majority of the votes.

01:29:40.260 I mean, there's just a clear consensus over the past 30 years of democratic centrism, which

01:29:50.420 they say they are always feeling the, the brunt of, so it just doesn't make any sense to

01:29:55.820 me when they turn around and say, oh, well, we, we secretly Sparta, we secretly have this

01:30:02.340 massive power base all over, well, our situation would be fundamentally different if that was

01:30:08.280 the case here in Britain, you know what I mean?

01:30:10.780 I don't know.

01:30:11.180 Right.

01:30:11.460 It is kind of funny.

01:30:12.920 Like there, there's a kind of inconsistent, like paranoia, like, you know, Tucker Carlson would

01:30:19.360 be like, you can't even recognize America at this point.

01:30:24.560 It's completely taken over by immigrants. 1.00

01:30:27.240 Now I'm not talking about race here.

01:30:29.760 I'm talking about culture, but you know what I'm talking about.

01:30:33.160 Right.

01:30:33.360 And then like two minutes later, he'll be like, the American public hates Joe Biden.

01:30:39.920 It's like, which one is it, you know, like all Americans agree with you or no Americans

01:30:48.680 with you, like which one?

01:30:51.060 Um, and so I, I think they, like, they do suffer from that kind of schizophrenia.

01:30:56.380 Yeah.

01:30:57.480 Yeah.

01:30:57.880 They can underestimate and overestimate themselves like at the same time.

01:31:02.760 And I think fundamentally that's what this whole election question is wrapped up in those

01:31:06.640 two polarities, you know?

01:31:08.460 Yeah.

01:31:10.760 Yeah.

01:31:11.200 But I, I mean, I, I do still find it very odd though, that, uh, I guess like with some

01:31:18.540 people, like, for example, even like Sargon of Akkad, Dave Rubin and so on, they won't

01:31:25.040 outright deny the election, what happened.

01:31:29.200 They kind of just hint at it.

01:31:31.140 Same with like Tucker Carlson.

01:31:32.760 Right.

01:31:33.660 Yeah.

01:31:34.100 In a way it makes me like, dislike them even more as opposed to someone like Alex Jones or

01:31:40.980 Nick Fuentes who are just, you know, unhinged with these conspiracy theories. 0.94

01:31:46.460 But yeah, it just makes me find them just even more cowardly.

01:31:51.880 The fact that they can't even come out and say what they believe.

01:31:55.660 I totally agree.

01:31:57.220 And, and it's also, it's, it's part of that kind of grifting in, in a way of like, you

01:32:03.600 know, basically indicating that you've in that nonsense, but then kind of giving yourself

01:32:10.060 plausible deniability, like claiming, you know, many of my constituents are concerned

01:32:15.220 about election integrity or whatever, um, or like kind of making it a non-issue like, you

01:32:22.780 know, Facebook, I think Blake Masters said like Facebook, uh, um, suppressed like more

01:32:31.280 conservative fake news sites than liberal fake news sites or whatever.

01:32:35.960 Like, so I don't think Biden actually won, you know, it's this kind of, I agree.

01:32:42.420 It's almost like worse.

01:32:44.080 I would rather have an adulterated, the Satanist did it, um, Alex Jones mentality.

01:32:52.060 Yeah.

01:32:53.140 Just something like more honest, like you can kind of deal with them as opposed to dealing

01:32:57.540 with someone who's like, you know, as slippery as a fish and just kind of wiggling around

01:33:02.760 what's obviously a very serious matter.

01:33:06.840 Yeah.

01:33:07.320 The problem with them doing like doing like the slippery stuff is it makes it sound more

01:33:12.440 reasonable to your average American when it's not more reasonable.

01:33:15.460 It's just, but it sounds more reasonable to say, you know, I'm just asking questions

01:33:21.080 on election security.

01:33:22.520 Like that sounds more reasonable and it's, that's why it's more dangerous.

01:33:27.160 I agree.

01:33:27.680 I'm just saying, but I'm not saying you can't say that I said something.

01:33:30.980 Right, exactly.

01:33:33.100 Could I chime in, Min?

01:33:34.440 Sure.

01:33:34.960 If that's all right.

01:33:35.880 All right.

01:33:36.400 Uh, thanks for letting me out, Richard.

01:33:37.560 Evening everyone.

01:33:38.260 Sure.

01:33:38.380 Is it possible to get back to free speech proper?

01:33:42.620 I wanted to talk about that a little bit, if that's all right.

01:33:45.840 Yeah.

01:33:46.760 Do you want me to answer that or do you have more of a...

01:33:49.920 Oh, yeah, yeah.

01:33:50.480 I wanted to answer that.

01:33:51.580 All right.

01:33:51.900 So I wanted to know, um, you know, if I, if I, if I joined late and you did talk about

01:33:56.120 this, I wanted to ask, you know, we don't really talk about what are you supposed to

01:34:00.700 do about the 4chan people?

01:34:02.160 Are you, how, how do you want to educate these people?

01:34:04.640 Because de-platforming them is kind of like a simpleton's, the world's black and white

01:34:09.000 response, right?

01:34:10.660 I understand that everyone, people don't deserve, sorry, people don't deserve a platform because

01:34:17.060 like, this is a brand new invention and there aren't any privileges around it.

01:34:21.540 And I think you talked about which something we'll definitely need in the future, which

01:34:24.740 is some sort of digital bill of rights.

01:34:27.340 Yeah.

01:34:28.440 Excuse me.

01:34:29.640 Um, to sort of navigate this new landscape, this two dimensional landscape that we're going

01:34:33.880 to be living in.

01:34:34.900 So I, I do understand when you guys say this person has no value, therefore they deserve

01:34:41.160 no platform, but there are options between those two extremes.

01:34:45.280 Namely, let's just say if we could put some sort of feature into Twitter where you would

01:34:51.840 have, let's say destiny or people, a significant number from both audiences checking, uh, these

01:34:58.400 people, they would be, and we would get closer and closer to some sort of a real consensus

01:35:02.740 and sort of refining the public conversation.

01:35:06.140 And you would give, for instance, Alex Jones, Nick Fuentes, all these guys, his audience members

01:35:11.420 reason to, you know, maybe become disillusioned, maybe doubt.

01:35:16.260 They're all, you know, fearless entertainer.

01:35:19.560 Um, when someone they agree with, sorry, is that for me?

01:35:26.220 I think so, but I'm not sure.

01:35:28.680 Okay.

01:35:29.660 Yeah.

01:35:30.080 So, I mean, there, there are a bunch of other things that we could do without, you know,

01:35:34.840 that isn't just telling someone that they can't express themselves because I think that

01:35:38.120 just opens us up to a new whole host of problems.

01:35:40.560 So, if we could just talk about that, and then I did want to say something quick about,

01:35:44.640 uh, the Biden win, non-win conversation.

01:35:49.840 Yeah.

01:35:50.240 I was, uh, I wasn't, I wasn't clapping.

01:35:52.340 I was just trying to, uh, say that I indicate that I wanted to speak.

01:35:55.360 Also, Jade, uh, do you need some water, man?

01:35:57.340 Go get, go get some, some new drink, man.

01:35:59.820 Yeah, I'm in, I'm in the park.

01:36:01.300 I'm looking for a fountain before I walk home.

01:36:04.000 Okay.

01:36:04.800 Um, yeah, I mean, I, I think it's kind of bigger.

01:36:08.460 I mean, I, I would, um, I don't know, like, force people to stop going on 4chan at all

01:36:18.120 and, uh, like, force them to join national compulsory, uh, flag football or frisbee leagues

01:36:28.420 or something like that.

01:36:30.000 Um, I guess I'm just much more radical. 0.99

01:36:32.400 I, I would absolutely use the power of government to get people off their ass and prevent them 0.99

01:36:41.600 from spending all day on the internet. 0.99

01:36:43.540 I, I do agree that like, we're, we're in this like huge problem because the way we, we think

01:36:52.020 of free speech in a, in a kind of naive way of like, well, everyone deserves a voice or,

01:36:57.980 you know, we, we, we should, we need to engage in the marketplace of ideas or something.

01:37:02.760 And we, we ultimately do need to like, look at the totally malign things involved with free

01:37:11.200 speech.

01:37:11.540 First off, just the like toxic cesspool element, um, the foreign adversaries use of, um, influencers, 0.75

01:37:21.880 uh, uh, to promote, uh, talking points and, and just a general dissociation with, from reality.

01:37:29.780 Um, yeah, I, I just think we need to like actually talk about this as opposed and, and have some

01:37:38.200 kind of coherent message that's done by the government.

01:37:43.600 Um, in, you know, with, with, you know, so we're not just like not addressing this.

01:37:51.700 And then there's like a whack-a-mole where a bunch of liberals will get Kiwi farm servers 1.00

01:37:57.400 to like not renew their contract contract or something.

01:38:01.760 And that, that's just not, you know, again, I, I don't, I'm not here to defend Kiwi farms

01:38:08.040 quite to the contrary, but that's just not really solving the real issue.

01:38:12.540 And they will regroup and go somewhere else.

01:38:16.760 Well, look, yeah, exactly.

01:38:18.140 What I was saying was that the real issue is like, just, uh, you know, it sounds basic,

01:38:21.800 but a lack of education that these people are just like basically uninformed and in an

01:38:26.860 increasingly globalized world, we're going to have to find a way.

01:38:30.140 And I think what you're describing is basically white noise.

01:38:32.280 It's yeah.

01:38:32.660 It can be very vitriolic and, you know, bad for society.

01:38:36.420 And then it's just something, the level of the Kardashians, right? 0.96

01:38:39.480 It's still all garbage and, and we wouldn't want our historical archive to be filled with 0.94

01:38:44.660 this stuff.

01:38:45.700 But since, so since everybody has access, you know, I was actually thinking, I'm not a

01:38:50.520 fashy or anything, but I was actually thinking about, do people, is it possible that people

01:38:55.380 shouldn't even deserve to have phones or internet because they're not capable of, um, sort of,

01:39:01.280 you know, weathering or, you know, using the power responsibly?

01:39:05.400 Um, if that makes sense, kind of like harnessing quantum physics when, before we understand

01:39:09.720 it in our Bluetooth and our phones, then we have no idea what kind of damage it can be

01:39:13.880 doing.

01:39:16.380 Interesting.

01:39:17.320 No, it's an interesting comparison.

01:39:19.460 Yeah.

01:39:19.680 I mean, I look, um, as I mentioned, you know, like an hour earlier, I mean, 40% of the public

01:39:27.760 thinks that chocolate milks comes out of brown cows, you know?

01:39:32.740 I mean, that's a, I don't know.

01:39:35.300 That can't be real.

01:39:36.640 That can't be real.

01:39:37.940 I think people just say that by brown cow, right?

01:39:40.660 There's no way that's real.

01:39:42.340 It's real.

01:39:43.080 Can I, can I add something?

01:39:44.620 I don't know if it's 40%, but it's a very, very high number. 0.97

01:39:50.840 It's a, it's a, like, dangerously high number.

01:39:54.560 Um, this is the issue.

01:39:56.760 I mean, we need to be realistic about human nature and, and just kind of the nature of

01:40:03.320 intelligence.

01:40:03.820 I mean, just saying that, like, they're not educated, you know, actually American education

01:40:10.820 is not that bad.

01:40:13.020 Yeah.

01:40:13.680 Um, in comparison to the world.

01:40:15.600 Right.

01:40:16.260 And we have the infrastructure.

01:40:17.380 The notion that, like, it's all terrible or whatever, that's really incorrect.

01:40:21.700 And there are some racial disparities, but like, you know, I won't get into this issue,

01:40:27.700 to be honest, because that's like another issue.

01:40:29.900 Yeah, well, just to clarify, I didn't mean, so I did mean that they were uneducated, but

01:40:34.120 what I meant was, the bigger problem is that if we had a more competent public, we wouldn't

01:40:40.820 have to worry about foreign adversaries.

01:40:42.520 We wouldn't have to worry about all that stuff, right?

01:40:43.920 It's pretty idealistic, but we'd have to make sure, you know, we'd have to get a population

01:40:48.320 that's fit, that's healthy, that's intelligent, that's, you know, all those good things.

01:40:51.820 We can't get that.

01:40:53.420 And so we, you, we need to have a patronizing attitude towards the public.

01:41:00.820 And so, like, but is this in an effort to get there or just to kind of sustain the status

01:41:06.060 quo?

01:41:06.620 A little bit of both.

01:41:08.760 Um, I mean, I think there are, I, I think there are limits.

01:41:13.920 And look, I think academia has gone crazy on some level.

01:41:19.460 I think it's gone extremely expensive on another.

01:41:23.280 I mean, you know, whatever, they're huge problems.

01:41:24.820 Yeah.

01:41:25.000 But just in terms of primary education, it's actually pretty good. 0.97

01:41:30.440 And we're still dumb. 0.98

01:41:32.860 So I don't think it's dumb, Richard. 1.00

01:41:35.380 Most people are dumb. 1.00

01:41:36.560 I don't think so much it's dumb. 1.00

01:41:37.800 I think that, you know, the United States lives in probably the most complex, the most 0.86

01:41:42.200 complex society, right?

01:41:43.620 330 million plus people, highly tech and so on.

01:41:46.660 So I really think that just like inflation, everything is kind of inflating outside of

01:41:51.340 the capacity of anyone to, you know, grasp or grapple right.

01:41:55.280 Can I, can I add something if that's okay?

01:41:58.240 Of course, please.

01:41:59.620 So I think, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's really, uh, valid to bring up, you know, uh,

01:42:05.920 4chan and, and, and things like that and the boards and what we can do about it.

01:42:10.240 But I think there is something, uh, there is an opportunity that gives us the chance to

01:42:15.120 be preventative.

01:42:15.820 And that is the, the metaverse, uh, situation.

01:42:20.240 Uh, I, I think that now's the time where we really start formulating, uh, what, uh, is

01:42:27.460 our response to that or how are we going to, to, to, to, to that?

01:42:31.440 Because I think there's a serious risk there.

01:42:34.080 And like I say, there's something we can do about it now before it really comes into place.

01:42:38.280 Perhaps it's too late.

01:42:39.320 I'm not too sure, but I think there's a real risk there because I think you could see like,

01:42:43.520 uh, you know, the, the 20 or 30% of males that don't reproduce, right.

01:42:48.340 That people talk about, you could see them basically going into that world and festering

01:42:52.980 until the point of, you know, at least spiritual death.

01:42:56.260 You know what I mean?

01:42:57.560 Uh, and, and I, and I think, you know.

01:42:59.040 Isn't that Reddit though?

01:43:00.040 Isn't that like the internet in general?

01:43:01.900 Yeah, but here's the, here's the thing that he's, here's, here's my sort of greater point

01:43:05.580 here is that you could take the, uh, our, our response to this, to something that's

01:43:10.780 upcoming and it could be, uh, a precedent where we turn it around and it could become

01:43:15.300 the precedent by which we operate on all, on, with all of this stuff.

01:43:18.800 You know what I mean?

01:43:19.720 Yeah.

01:43:19.920 Yeah.

01:43:20.080 Yeah.

01:43:20.180 Like an all unifying principle.

01:43:22.300 Right.

01:43:22.400 Right.

01:43:22.940 Right.

01:43:23.260 Right.

01:43:23.640 And sparked by the metaverse question, if you will.

01:43:27.200 Right.

01:43:27.640 Yeah.

01:43:28.020 And the metaverse has a great example.

01:43:29.960 Oh, go ahead.

01:43:30.480 My initial instinct is to nuke the metaverse entirely.

01:43:34.840 Yes.

01:43:35.420 Well, that's good.

01:43:35.880 Absolutely.

01:43:36.920 Honestly, honestly, Richard.

01:43:38.040 You're right, because, you know, I don't know how many people follow tech that closely,

01:43:44.580 but, you know, they're, they're looking for business models, but that's really asking

01:43:48.080 how is it we want to sell it?

01:43:51.500 What kind of, what, what do we want to use it for?

01:43:53.560 And so on and so on.

01:43:55.100 And you can bet it's going to be the least, you know, in imaginative people in the world

01:44:00.780 who are making this thing for some bottom line and so on.

01:44:03.440 And so it's going to be some sort of a hellscape.

01:44:05.460 But could I actually say something about that Biden thing as well?

01:44:11.780 I think someone asked, I think, I think someone asked, I think someone asked, do you think

01:44:18.260 that people really think that Biden didn't win the election?

01:44:21.400 But I, I don't know if you guys are being genuine here.

01:44:25.040 This election, you're right.

01:44:26.860 Obviously, he didn't win and he should stop disputing it.

01:44:30.920 And it seems petty at this point and so on and so on.

01:44:33.560 But Biden won in the middle of the night over two weeks in an unprecedented mail-in voting

01:44:40.200 election by a rounding error with a definite asterisk.

01:44:44.440 And there wasn't this much questioning on either side about whether or not Trump won.

01:44:48.320 So I think you guys have to appreciate that this was not unlike every other election.

01:44:54.220 So people have major reasons to speculate and wouldn't put it past the DNC and leftists

01:45:01.320 to do something like that.

01:45:03.580 Right.

01:45:04.620 So, I mean, you guys are just making them seem like they're just pretty and they're pulling

01:45:08.160 this out of her.

01:45:09.760 Just to play devil's advocate here.

01:45:11.840 Well, OK.

01:45:12.840 I'm a little and devil's advocate, but I get what you mean.

01:45:15.000 Sorry.

01:45:15.240 Go ahead.

01:45:15.960 I wouldn't put it past any of these people to be horrible.

01:45:19.980 I wouldn't put it past Donald Trump to sell nuclear secrets to Saudi Arabia or whatever.

01:45:26.620 Like I, you know, but that's not the same as they then did it.

01:45:33.460 You know, I mean, the other thing, just that like structural historical notion of the presidency

01:45:41.720 being a center left institution, it's just overwhelming.

01:45:46.700 Like you, you've got to pray that.

01:45:49.340 The otherwise.

01:45:50.120 You're right.

01:45:50.580 Yeah.

01:45:51.140 That's usually Trump somehow miraculously became president because in my ever since I was

01:45:57.740 nine years old, Democrats have with two exceptions easily or not always easily, but significantly

01:46:07.120 won the popular vote.

01:46:08.620 You're right.

01:46:08.880 It's because we're always moving, you know, towards progress and not tradition, I guess.

01:46:13.740 Yeah.

01:46:17.280 Apologies.

01:46:18.000 There's going to be like some overhead.

01:46:19.600 Once again, if you're just joining us in the party area, let me view you there.

01:46:26.700 OK.

01:46:28.180 That was kind of funny.

01:46:30.260 All right.

01:46:30.980 Anyone else want to jump in here?

01:46:34.600 Oh, Capybara.

01:46:36.000 I remember Capybara.

01:46:37.600 Sorry about that.

01:46:39.320 The overhead overhead is gone.

01:46:40.280 I just wanted to jump in.

01:46:41.200 I'm sorry.

01:46:41.660 But yes.

01:46:42.920 Yes.

01:46:43.100 Thank you.

01:46:43.600 Thank you.

01:46:43.940 Thank you.

01:46:45.120 So on the topic, recent recent recent recent back to the titular subject.

01:46:50.720 Let me ask you, Richard.

01:46:52.820 Yeah.

01:46:54.060 You know, there's opportunity costs to free speech.

01:46:56.700 Right.

01:46:56.960 And to both of us having this conversation. 0.98

01:46:59.120 And shout out to you on some level for being, you know, more, having more cojones to let 0.99

01:47:03.800 me up. 0.97

01:47:05.260 I'm not a famous guy.

01:47:07.080 I don't have a huge following.

01:47:08.700 I feel like even stages where there's not that many people and most people are like in

01:47:12.880 the hundreds as soon as they're following, won't let people up. 0.99

01:47:14.900 It's like, what the fuck? 0.98

01:47:15.820 But anyway, so thank you for that. 0.99

01:47:17.560 But this opportunity costs to both of us talking to each other because, you know, you are who

01:47:20.980 you are and I am who I am.

01:47:22.620 And I'm sure that our audiences, whatever, might have some feelings about that, whatever.

01:47:28.420 But let me ask you, what do you, I want to open the horse's mouth, how do you identify

01:47:33.100 yourself now?

01:47:34.220 I know you've been in the process of a rebrand and whatnot.

01:47:36.960 What do you identify now as now?

01:47:39.020 And how do you feel about the opportunity costs of you having conversations during your

01:47:44.060 rebrand?

01:47:45.540 Well, I don't think there's any opportunity cost.

01:47:48.760 I mean, in the sense of I could be doing something else.

01:47:52.900 I, you know, I, I go up here.

01:47:56.340 Okay, risks.

01:47:56.960 I mean, risks then.

01:47:57.940 What's the risk you, you know, during your rebrand?

01:48:00.260 Sorry.

01:48:00.500 I don't know.

01:48:00.960 Someone calls me a bad name and I kick them off.

01:48:03.440 Like, the risk is not very high.

01:48:07.960 I'm not, I'm, I actually like, I don't, I don't do these every day.

01:48:12.060 And I, I do talks in different formats over the course of the week, but I like to get

01:48:19.260 out here and, you know, the Twitter space gives me a chance to talk to 100 followers

01:48:25.400 or something.

01:48:26.360 And I think that's interesting.

01:48:28.060 And I have, I have kind of, you know, met some interesting people this way.

01:48:32.980 So I, I will continue to do it.

01:48:34.780 I don't see any major opportunity costs.

01:48:36.600 That'd be twiddling my thumbs otherwise.

01:48:38.100 Um, in terms of my own, you know, evolution of what I identify with, I mean, there's, there's

01:48:46.260 no question that I've rethought a number of things.

01:48:50.080 And I do think that it's an evolution.

01:48:54.680 Um, there's a difference between someone, you know, like renouncing all of their views

01:49:01.960 or something and dying and crying and lying and whatever.

01:49:06.720 I'm, I'm not going to do any of that, but I am going to rethink certain assumptions I

01:49:12.960 have as information changes, but also as I change.

01:49:17.900 And I'm also older now and, you know, it's been, I don't know, four or five years, but

01:49:24.380 still, and I've kind of seen how a lot of the things that I got involved with, particularly

01:49:32.080 in 2017, like the logical conclusion that all of that stuff leads to, and I really don't

01:49:40.420 want to be a part of it.

01:49:41.680 And so, you know, and, and, and other, other issues, I just kind of rethought or have a

01:49:46.760 little more of a nuanced take on, um, I, I do identify, um, with what's called Apollonianism

01:49:56.080 or Apolloism, um, that's kind of the big project that I'm involved in, the kind of like macro

01:50:05.780 project, big picture project that I don't think probably a very small percentage of people on

01:50:12.220 here know about it, but I, you know, when I first started using the term alt-right in 2010 or earlier,

01:50:22.300 2009, I believe, uh, no one also heard about that either.

01:50:26.420 So, um, I think this will probably take 10 years before it's a, a, anything like a household name.

01:50:33.880 So that's, uh, um, that's how I would identify, but in terms of my opinions, like my take on

01:50:41.360 free speech, you know, I speak for myself.

01:50:44.440 Um, this is my take, uh, this is Richard Spencer's view.

01:50:48.980 You can take it or leave it.

01:50:49.940 You could associate me with all the Trump stuff from years ago, or you could not.

01:50:57.740 It's up to you.

01:50:58.720 Um, so I'm just, you know, looking it up since you, right, it's kind of a neologism.

01:51:03.120 So reason, culture, harmony, restraint, those would be like your, your four tenants or some,

01:51:08.120 or things that you would platonically.

01:51:09.600 I don't know what that is.

01:51:10.520 That might be someone else claiming to be, uh, Apollo.

01:51:14.440 No.

01:51:14.840 Uh, if you look up Mark Bromann, um, and myself, that I think we're the, um, Mark Bromann's the

01:51:22.740 Pope and I'm the, uh, disciple.

01:51:25.480 So I kind of, I kind of want to ask something or like sort of get your opinion on, on something.

01:51:32.240 So earlier on, you kind of mentioned, uh, this tendency for these people to, uh, want

01:51:38.860 to create good followers, these YouTube stars.

01:51:42.600 And this is something that I've kind of been thinking about that is, it's something that

01:51:46.320 really, uh, holds back the chances of any positive movement.

01:51:50.540 And it definitely, um, kneecaps the whole, uh, YouTube, uh, sort of sphere for me is

01:51:58.280 that, you know, these people, uh, fundamentally invested in, in, in, you know, uh, not telling

01:52:05.600 the truth, but basically placating the, the, the doctrines of their, of their fans and the

01:52:10.920 sensibilities of their fans.

01:52:12.020 Do you, do you see any sort of, uh, uh, do you think that is inherently a problem of

01:52:17.900 the YouTube, uh, YouTuber sphere and, and that whole YouTuber dynamic?

01:52:22.080 Is there a way out of that as, uh, um, as a YouTuber, you can, someone, you know, kind

01:52:29.500 of follow the righteous line, so to speak, or making the whole, just the whole system

01:52:33.860 creating different incentive structures, um, I, I think also, to be honest, I, I've had

01:52:44.140 a certain appreciation for the need for, for a mainstream media that sets the tone and kind

01:52:54.440 of gives general parameters to people's lives.

01:52:59.780 And I'm not claiming that, you know, I'm in love with Walter Cronkite or the New York

01:53:07.040 Times of 2003, uh, which went right along with the Bush administration.

01:53:14.280 But, you know, I, I acknowledge like serious problems with that.

01:53:18.440 And I also acknowledge the fact that I've always been a kind of alternative voice.

01:53:22.420 And I, I'm fine with that.

01:53:25.700 Um, but I, I, I understand the necessity of that.

01:53:30.620 And I do think that like 2016 really was a watershed year.

01:53:36.960 It's not the social media were invented in that year, but it was that there's this, there's

01:53:43.260 the first instance of the term fake news was basically pointing out that these news items

01:53:50.140 that were just obviously fraudulent, like the Pope endorses Donald Trump or, you know, Hillary

01:53:56.760 Clinton is a member of ISIS or something that news items like that were actually getting

01:54:02.800 more traction than like USA today.

01:54:05.180 And that actually really is a crossing of the Rubicon and you kind of once you've reached

01:54:16.760 that state.

01:54:17.460 And so, you know, I don't, I don't have a full solution to all of these problems, but I also

01:54:28.320 acknowledge that things are, these things are problems and that if you're just like strapping

01:54:34.040 yourself in with this like free speech absolutism or just kind of like vague moralizing like Glenn

01:54:42.640 Greenwald or whatever, there's just no way to solve these, these issues.

01:54:47.300 No, no, no, no.

01:54:48.960 And I, I think, I, I think you were, you were in the conversation earlier with the libertarian

01:54:53.900 Swedish guy.

01:54:55.320 Um, and just, just, just this, just this idea that, uh, you know, that authority or, uh,

01:55:02.840 you know, in, in, in the time, in the terms of Walter Cronkite or in that example, like

01:55:07.200 a, a tone setting voice that gives stability, the fact that the idea of that is like inherently 0.99

01:55:12.720 wrong or oppressive, um, it's just really like stupid on a, in a practical sense, you 0.98

01:55:20.180 know what I mean? 0.99

01:55:20.600 Yes.

01:55:21.800 Uh, I mean, we just, you know, like Elizabeth II didn't do much as queen, but the fact that

01:55:31.100 there is this like worldwide mourning and in, in, in particular, serious mourning among

01:55:37.060 Brits, I mean, it expresses there's, there's some need within us to follow the leader and

01:55:42.060 to have some like source of stability that is authoritative.

01:55:47.280 I was at the, uh, I was at the Requiem Mass actually on Friday at Westminster Abbey and you

01:55:53.480 totally kind of felt that, you know, the, you look, people looking for that prompt, you

01:55:58.460 know, for, for, for that, for that, you know, leadership role that is now gone or that,

01:56:02.580 you know, that, you know, that guidance that is now gone.

01:56:05.440 Yes.

01:56:09.480 All right, guys.

01:56:11.200 Um, copy borrow.

01:56:13.000 I'll do copy borrow McNeely and then, um, some other guys.

01:56:20.480 Hey, what's up?

01:56:21.940 Hey.

01:56:26.000 Go ahead.

01:56:27.400 You've got the floor.

01:56:28.460 Yeah.

01:56:30.820 So for the January 6th protests, uh, I was just curious, how many of the people who went,

01:56:35.260 do you think actually believed the election was stolen?

01:56:38.280 And plus like of the people went, how many?

01:56:41.700 Uh, a hundred percent.

01:56:45.580 Like if, if like you told them that it was, uh, like it was legitimate and they, yeah,

01:56:53.880 I still feel like a lot of them would have gone anyways, just cause they hate Joe Biden.

01:56:58.440 And so much.

01:57:00.040 That might be true.

01:57:01.200 But I, I mean, it's just a kind of a weird question.

01:57:04.360 Like a large percentage of the population believes the election was stolen.

01:57:08.920 And so in terms of, if you've motive, you were motivated enough to like drive to Washington,

01:57:14.400 I bet that a hundred percent were on board with that.

01:57:19.420 Um, what percentage of the, like Trump supporters do you think?

01:57:28.360 Well, there's a polling on this.

01:57:30.320 I mean, I don't quite know, but it's like 30% of Republicans or something.

01:57:34.720 It's a high number.

01:57:36.000 It has changed and it's gone down, but it's, and there was an interesting thing.

01:57:41.820 I remember doing this when I was working on, um, this article that Ed wrote on QAnon, because

01:57:46.660 I, I, I worked on like some background for it.

01:57:50.160 And it was interesting because like, first off, a significant amount of Democrats believed

01:57:55.100 it.

01:57:55.360 And then also interesting, many people would say like with QAnon polling, many people would

01:58:01.640 say, I'm not QAnon, but I believe that they must run the government.

01:58:07.760 So it's like, it's like really weird things.

01:58:11.300 I, I don't, so they effectively believe in QAnon, but then don't have never heard the 0.89

01:58:16.940 name or, or reject it because they heard a liberal say it's QAnon stupid and wrong or 0.99

01:58:22.760 something. 0.99

01:58:23.480 Who knows?

01:58:24.220 But that's pretty much a sizable percentage.

01:58:28.620 I mean, it's not, it's not the, it's, it's bigger than like people who are Wiccans or people 0.99

01:58:38.800 who are atheists or people who are fans of the Cincinnati Reds or something.

01:58:44.340 It's a significant percentage of the population.

01:58:48.600 I was actually going to bring up the poll.

01:58:50.880 It just, it doesn't make any sense.

01:58:52.200 Cause yeah, what I've looked at, it, it shows like 30 or 40% of like these Republicans,

01:58:57.100 you know, don't believe like, you know, these elections are legitimate or anything like that.

01:59:00.600 But in terms of like people I know, it's pretty much like every like Trump supporter, like

01:59:05.060 thinks this way.

01:59:06.520 Like, yeah.

01:59:06.960 I don't know.

01:59:11.280 All right.

01:59:13.060 Let's move on.

01:59:14.080 Neely, would you like to speak?

01:59:17.620 Hey, how's it going, everybody?

01:59:19.640 Hey.

01:59:19.900 Hey, so I'm a middle of the road, open-minded American, as I would think a lot of people

01:59:27.660 are.

01:59:29.300 Just got two points to want to make real quick.

01:59:31.700 Uh, so I think we all can enjoy the company star Starbucks.

01:59:37.660 I think they make great drinks.

01:59:39.940 How that relates to the conversation.

01:59:42.400 So on August 15th of this year, uh, headline on CNBC, Starbucks asked labor board to suspend

01:59:51.840 mail and ballot union elections, alleging misconduct in the voting process.

01:59:56.860 So that's a company of 250,000 people.

02:00:01.360 They don't trust it.

02:00:03.580 Um, there's 340 million of us, but you know, if you're a critical thinker that just, you

02:00:12.420 know, if they can't do it for their union elections, well, why would it be valid for any other election?

02:00:19.120 And then, uh, point two, if you are a critical thinker, you would know that that is a total

02:00:24.420 non sequitur.

02:00:25.360 Well, point two, um, you know, you can Google this, there's videos, pictures, whatever.

02:00:33.920 What I've yet to see for years is any enthusiasm for the Biden administration on camera in public.

02:00:43.680 Like when you look at rallies, when you look at, there's no comparison.

02:00:48.620 I mean, like I said, I'm just seeing it as it is.

02:00:53.440 There's, there's literally nothing.

02:00:55.880 There's nothing.

02:00:57.180 Well, I mean, I'm sorry, but like, but you have to look at the imagery though.

02:01:01.560 I mean, how, how can that not be a factor in things?

02:01:06.240 Because imagery is not a quantitative count of votes and imagery can be very deceptive.

02:01:11.960 Absolutely.

02:01:12.480 I don't disagree with that at all.

02:01:14.240 I'm just saying that it is something to ponder.

02:01:17.740 Well, I, I more or less agree with you that Trump's supporters are more intensely dedicated

02:01:26.160 than, than Biden supporters are dedicated to Biden.

02:01:29.600 I mean, I, I think that's a, a, not a contest because again, it's just a non sequitur.

02:01:35.100 It's, it's very different than saying, was he elected?

02:01:38.440 I mean, you don't have to be an enthusiastic rally attendee to vote.

02:01:45.460 Right.

02:01:46.080 I don't disagree with that at all, but one way that I kind of gauge this whole optics thing

02:01:53.780 with votes just out of my own thoughts is looking back to 2008.

02:01:59.580 I mean, Barack Obama, you remember back when he ran, I mean, there was so much enthusiasm.

02:02:06.260 I mean, you saw t-shirts, bumper stickers, yard signs, flags.

02:02:10.420 It was everywhere you looked.

02:02:12.380 It was like, everybody was for Obama and they're trying to say in a way that, well, I mean,

02:02:18.260 they're not trying to say, they're saying that Biden got way more votes than Obama did

02:02:22.860 back then.

02:02:23.440 I mean, it's just, it's, it's kind of confusing.

02:02:26.820 Trump is much more hated than John McCain.

02:02:30.340 Can I, can I, can I offer, sorry, go ahead.

02:02:33.920 Go ahead, guys.

02:02:34.780 I can offer a perspective, because I think there's a danger of getting too caught up in

02:02:39.620 the minutiae of how elections run mechanically and this, that, and the other.

02:02:44.920 I kind of made the point earlier on, I made the assertion that people would, and Trump supporters

02:02:51.540 can understand this, the people were propagandized against Trump 24-7 for four years, okay?

02:02:59.280 We know that the power that, you know, mainstream liberalism, if you want to call it for now, has over the population.

02:03:07.700 And let us not forget, in a basic political sense, Trump failed on many aspects of his mandate, okay?

02:03:15.720 He didn't build the, you know, the Mexican wall, but he built Israel, you know what I mean? 0.87

02:03:21.280 And I just want to kind of, like, understand that if you can, if you try and combine these factors,

02:03:28.340 it's not so crazy to think that, yeah, maybe he just didn't win the election.

02:03:32.080 You know what I mean?

02:03:33.780 I don't know.

02:03:35.820 No, I totally get it.

02:03:37.220 It's just, it's just odd to me, and it's, I mean, I don't know, just sitting here, 0.94

02:03:42.020 seeing what they feed us on television and in the papers, it's like, damn, you know, what a confusing thing.

02:03:50.980 And it's like, you know, if you guys, I watch both sides, so it's like, I watched the Biden speech last week 0.93

02:03:57.300 or the week before, and I also watched Trump's speech just to see what he had to say,

02:04:02.180 and I was just like, okay, this is, again, just kind of crazy.

02:04:06.480 But it just, it really is nuts that, like, back in 08, when Obama ran, you know, he got 69 million votes.

02:04:13.760 And then now, you know, with all that enthusiasm and show throughout all the support in the public,

02:04:20.500 and then in, you know, 2020, they say Biden got 81 million, so 11 million more than Obama got.

02:04:28.960 And it's like, and that brings another point.

02:04:31.540 It's like, did so many people vote out of hatred?

02:04:34.160 And if so, then that's, that's a sad state of our country.

02:04:38.260 Yes.

02:04:39.260 I mean, first off, the population is literally bigger, but also, yes.

02:04:47.140 I mean, I think John McCain and even Mitt Romney were, like, slightly toxic, you could say.

02:04:54.300 And certainly the, you know, liberals tried to make them as such.

02:04:58.820 But there was just nothing in comparison with the demonization of Trump, but also just the, you know, genuine hatred of Trump by tens of millions of people.

02:05:12.180 And they're willing to, I mean, I don't know.

02:05:14.760 Joe Biden didn't campaign.

02:05:18.560 And I think he could have not campaigned at all and still won.

02:05:27.040 Like, all you had to do was have Trump on stage.

02:05:31.360 Like, Trump is, he enthuses his base and he, you know, enthuses, it's enthuses a verb, he enthuses the opposition.

02:05:43.380 I mean, he is just such an extreme polarizing figure.

02:05:49.020 Well, I just hope for all of us that we can get to a better place.

02:05:55.040 And that's, that's all I got to say, guys.

02:05:58.400 Okay.

02:05:59.100 Thank you.

02:06:00.860 Yeah.

02:06:03.540 Yeah.

02:06:03.980 Who's that?

02:06:05.200 Arcio, you added me in.

02:06:06.280 Oh, yeah.

02:06:06.620 I was about to, about to say your name.

02:06:08.840 I want to say it's kind of an honor.

02:06:11.000 I've been watching you for quite some time now.

02:06:14.040 Oh, thank you.

02:06:14.540 I appreciate that.

02:06:15.340 Yeah.

02:06:15.840 You know, I want to just ask you a few lighthearted questions I've had about you, if you don't mind.

02:06:21.020 Sure.

02:06:21.920 So, first off, like, what does your music taste contain of?

02:06:25.880 Because I noticed you brought up The Cure.

02:06:30.280 Yeah.

02:06:31.020 You know, I liked The Cure a lot when I was younger.

02:06:34.620 And I had their CDs.

02:06:39.140 I mean, Kiss Me, Kiss Me, Kiss Me is a great album.

02:06:43.060 But I even bought their, like, early 80s, like, you know, 17 Seconds, Pornography, Faith.

02:06:51.160 They're kind of, like, post-punk, dark, weird albums, depressive albums.

02:06:59.000 You know, it doesn't matter if we all die.

02:07:01.000 I mean, the whole nihilistic aspects of it all.

02:07:04.280 Yeah, definitely.

02:07:05.680 And I like The Cure a lot.

02:07:08.040 I kind of got out of them.

02:07:09.800 I probably didn't listen to them for 20 years or something.

02:07:13.960 And just, I don't know.

02:07:16.460 It was, like, the last year or so for a reason I started to listen to them.

02:07:20.060 I don't think they're my favorite band, but I do like them quite a bit.

02:07:24.440 But I think Robert Smith is a really unique figure.

02:07:28.420 Like, he just created a sound that is uniquely him.

02:07:33.480 Definitely.

02:07:34.140 And, yeah, so I think he's, I think The Cure is a great band.

02:07:40.100 Yeah, I mean, I guess it's fairly well known that I'm a Depeche Mode fanboy.

02:07:44.740 You know, unrepentant.

02:07:50.500 I've always, I think, basically, I liked them when I was a kid, and I still like them now.

02:07:56.360 Yeah, I mean, I like a lot of the kind of Euro, new wave stuff that was in my childhood.

02:08:02.480 I mean, I think it's a very similar story.

02:08:06.160 Like, you listen to stuff that you listened to when you were 13.

02:08:09.980 I've noticed you like a lot of 80s hits that I've been getting into.

02:08:16.780 Oh, okay, cool.

02:08:18.120 Yeah, I always make the joke that you were kind of the Marilyn Manson of 2016 and 2017, that era.

02:08:25.760 The whole, like, going up on stage, saying the most, like, you know, what's considered controversial

02:08:30.860 and becoming a household name, trolling news reporters.

02:08:34.380 Yeah.

02:08:35.880 Yeah.

02:08:36.480 Probably some truth to that.

02:08:38.560 But I actually, believe it or not, I actually saw Marilyn Manson in concert in the 90s.

02:08:45.180 No way.

02:08:46.480 Yeah.

02:08:46.980 So I was, again, not a huge, huge fan, but I was a fan of Trent Reznor and, like, Nine Inch Nails.

02:08:54.940 Really?

02:08:55.400 And I went to a concert, and it was really quite funny.

02:08:58.800 Because, like, for instance, I think Depeche Mode concerts, you have, like, a smorgasbord of the popular.

02:09:07.020 Like, there are a lot of different people who like Depeche Mode.

02:09:09.800 So, particularly now.

02:09:11.500 So, like, when I went to the last Depeche Mode concert, Hago, in 2018, I think.

02:09:19.200 And there were people my age.

02:09:21.100 There were people older than me.

02:09:22.500 There were actually people in their 20s.

02:09:24.660 There were a few goth people.

02:09:27.140 There was, like, a Hispanic contingent.

02:09:29.360 There was, it was actually, like, a fairly, like, representative or something.

02:09:35.060 When I went to the New Inch Nails concert, I forgot who I was with.

02:09:39.080 And I just walked up, like, dressed typically in, like, jeans and a t-shirt or something.

02:09:44.820 And it was, like, 99% hardcore goths.

02:09:51.840 Wait, so you never went through that phase where you were, like, starting to dress all, like.

02:09:56.220 No, no, no.

02:09:57.200 I was never, like, a goth or anything, no.

02:10:00.360 Oh, that's never late.

02:10:02.340 Yeah.

02:10:03.240 I mean, again, I guess I kind of liked music that was somewhat like that.

02:10:07.520 But even The Cure had kind of a broader following.

02:10:11.180 This was almost this, like, extreme niche following of, I was, like, so, I was the only one who didn't have, like, a nose piercing or something.

02:10:20.640 Oh, wow.

02:10:20.980 And the opening act, and so, and I remember, like, Nine Inch Nails, it was a cool concert.

02:10:28.040 It was, you know, totally wild.

02:10:30.260 He was, I think he was, like, broke, and, like, head in the hole, he, like, broke his guitar, like, by playing it, not by slamming.

02:10:36.820 I mean, it was, it was, you know, intense 90s, you know, nihilism kind of stuff.

02:10:42.940 But Marilyn Manson went on stage, and he was totally unknown.

02:10:49.140 This was probably, like, 1997 or something.

02:10:51.400 Ooh, prior to Columbine, huh?

02:10:53.720 Yeah, prior to Columbine.

02:10:55.540 And he was just totally outrageous. 0.89

02:11:00.280 Like, I believe he stuck a beer bottle up his butt and threw the beer bottle into the, like, it was, like, over, like, probably illegal. 0.96

02:11:11.420 Yeah. 0.96

02:11:12.340 Like, I'm surprised he didn't kill a puppy on stage.

02:11:14.900 It was just, like, shocking, totally outrageous behavior.

02:11:21.220 I don't even remember the music.

02:11:22.900 And I've never liked Marilyn Manson's music.

02:11:26.520 The only music of his that I've liked are when he, like, covers, you know, beer rhythms or whatever.

02:11:33.020 I don't like his actual music.

02:11:34.920 But I just remember this figure, but he was, like, totally unknown.

02:11:37.780 But even then, when he was totally unknown, he was, like, pushing the boundaries.

02:11:42.800 Nine Inch Nails didn't do anything that, like, gross. 1.00

02:11:46.800 But they were pretty badass in concert.

02:11:50.080 They were pretty, like, it was a badass concert.

02:11:53.460 You know, just, like, you know, mosh pit full, you know, crazy lights going on, screaming, like, head like a hole.

02:12:02.420 Like, it was, it was, I wish, I mean, it was pre-cell phone era.

02:12:07.120 I don't have any recording.

02:12:08.300 But I remember it.

02:12:09.560 I was, like, whoa.

02:12:11.900 Do you have any musical abilities or just any artistic talents of your own by any chance?

02:12:18.180 Yeah.

02:12:18.700 I mean, I can play the piano and I can kind of sing, I guess, a little bit.

02:12:22.420 I mean, I know a lot about music and classical music as well, but, and I care about it, but I'm not, like, super talented or anything.

02:12:33.120 Would you ever consider, like, releasing anything of your own?

02:12:36.620 I have considered it, yeah.

02:12:39.020 I've kind of considered doing, like, a Depeche Mode cover album or something and, like, doing some recordings where I play and then sing.

02:12:49.820 Yeah.

02:12:50.100 Yeah, it's definitely a part of it.

02:12:50.760 I've thought about it a lot.

02:12:52.420 I, that would be my gift to the world via SoundCloud.

02:12:57.360 Well, I didn't imagine you being a singer type.

02:12:59.180 Now I can, like, now that I'm thinking about it more, I can definitely, I can hear a little bit of it.

02:13:04.940 Yeah.

02:13:06.120 Yeah.

02:13:07.320 I think it would be fun.

02:13:08.520 It would be a good project.

02:13:10.080 I should definitely do it.

02:13:11.880 Yeah, for your, maybe you can make your own sort of music in your edits for your, like, more Apolloistic projects.

02:13:17.640 Yeah, I mean, it's, I mean, I've taken, I don't think I should compose the music for anything, but, like, compose original music.

02:13:29.480 And, like, someone like Zurious, I think, has done some really cool, like, synth wave, you know, dance, house music, almost, like, stuff.

02:13:40.780 I think he's done some really great stuff.

02:13:43.480 I could probably collaborate a bit, I guess, but, you know, my musicals are not super high.

02:13:51.820 I guess I know my limits.

02:13:54.100 I mean, you're definitely a good writer.

02:13:55.460 Thanks, I appreciate that.

02:13:58.620 Yeah, I mean, and I would, yeah, maybe I should, like, write, you know, some lyrics or something.

02:14:04.320 Maybe that's what I should.

02:14:05.200 Yeah, if you can collaborate with some people and, you know, be the writer of the projects, I could definitely see that.

02:14:13.880 A danceable.

02:14:14.480 Can I, like, can I course change, like, radically?

02:14:18.440 Yes.

02:14:18.860 Sorry, this is going to sound so drastic compared to the conversation you just had.

02:14:26.320 But I want to mention the phenomenon surrounding what unfortunately happened to Dugan's daughter.

02:14:40.580 I want to ask you specifically, why do you think the Western media is enamoured with this idea of, like, the man behind the man sort of thing?

02:14:54.160 Like, you know, like, the brains behind the man.

02:14:59.240 So, like, with Dugan, he's presented as, like, the brains behind the man.

02:15:03.220 Oh, I see what you're saying.

02:15:04.700 Yeah.

02:15:04.880 Yeah, and with Boris Johnson, it's Dominic Green's behind Boris Johnson, but in both cases, there isn't much to really sort of, you know, to facilitate that or to flesh that out.

02:15:15.980 Well, I think, I think basically they want something that they can get their hands on that explains the political actors.

02:15:26.780 So, I mean, I wrote a tweet thread on this.

02:15:29.900 I actually had two really good discussions on this, and we've lost the recordings of them.

02:15:36.580 So, it kind of pisses me off, but I guess I'll reiterate what I've said.

02:15:41.400 I mean, Dugan was more notorious in the West than he was influential in the East.

02:15:48.300 But that doesn't mean that he wasn't influential, and it also doesn't mean that, like, his philosophy didn't gel or maybe you could say undergird, like, Putin's geopolitics.

02:16:08.160 I mean, it wasn't – I think it's ridiculous to say that Dugan was, like, whispering in Putin's ear or something.

02:16:14.620 But it would be, like, someone in China saying that, like, Richard Spencer is best friends with Donald Trump, and he just tells Trump what to do, and Trump, you know, doesn't.

02:16:25.540 I mean, sadly –

02:16:25.780 Well, that was kind of being said in 2016.

02:16:28.160 That's hilarious.

02:16:31.380 Yeah.

02:16:32.080 That was kind of being said in 2016.

02:16:34.200 It was, but no one, like, actually said that.

02:16:39.700 I mean, it was kind of whispered, but – sure.

02:16:42.820 But it was not true.

02:16:45.020 It's a bit similar with Dugan.

02:16:47.760 Like, I don't think he is, like, Rasputin, like, in the court of the Tsar affecting his daily opinions.

02:16:55.620 I mean, that being said, like, Duganism is – like, you could absolutely use Duganism to justify Russian geopolitics.

02:17:06.680 So it's not – you know, it's not like that foreign affairs article is totally irrational or something, you know.

02:17:14.500 But, I mean, I think – I mean, I wrote this, and I'll tell you what I think.

02:17:20.300 I think the Russian government killed Daria Dugina, and I think they might have been aiming at Dugan, or they might have actually been aiming at her.

02:17:32.420 And if Ukraine did it, that is, the Ukrainian government, I think they would have admitted it.

02:17:45.720 You know, I mean, like, they're – I mean, granted, it's a huge escalation to kill a citizen in a foreign country. 0.99

02:17:53.620 But nevertheless, you know, you could kind of plausibly say, well, this guy is the mastermind behind it all, so we need to take him out.

02:18:02.500 But they didn't. They vehemently denied it.

02:18:05.280 And I don't think that – like, I think they have bigger fish to fry than killing Alexander Dugan or his daughter.

02:18:13.740 And I think, you know, there might be some, like, radical group acting on its own that did it.

02:18:18.320 That's very possible.

02:18:20.920 But I think my vision of it, that it was a kind of message sent by the government.

02:18:28.220 I mean, you know, it's not implausible for me to say this in the sense that there is a long list of people who were close to the Russian government who end up dead.

02:18:41.600 And, in fact, their entire family ends up dead.

02:18:45.160 I mean, it's a disgusting thing, actually.

02:18:50.740 These guys, they become billionaires.

02:18:52.620 They own a copper mine or whatever.

02:18:55.040 And then they get out of sorts with Putin or they're a perceived threat or something.

02:19:02.020 And they just – their whole family ends up slaughtered.

02:19:04.820 I mean, it is horrifying in many ways.

02:19:07.700 So it's not like the Russian government is above this or something.

02:19:12.320 What's the hypothetical message?

02:19:13.680 The message, I think, people misunderstand Dugan.

02:19:19.820 They think that he is a fanboy of Putin.

02:19:24.560 That's not exactly correct.

02:19:27.680 Dugan is supportive of Putin.

02:19:31.080 He more or less likes what he's doing.

02:19:32.720 But he's a kind of potential threat in the sense that, you know, he wants to go all the way.

02:19:40.340 He wants a total war, a existential war with the West and with, like, satanic liberalism or whatever he thinks.

02:19:49.280 And so if Putin has to, like, pull back or negotiate or, you know, he loses or something, Dugan is going to be there saying, you betrayed the holy church.

02:20:03.440 You know, he's not going to be like, oh, well, get him next time.

02:20:08.580 And so I think it was a kind of shot across the bow.

02:20:12.960 And to a lot of these ideologues saying, like, you know, watch yourself.

02:20:19.320 Dugan says Putin on occasion, albeit in a very, like, slight way.

02:20:27.660 I know at one point during an interview he had said that Putin sort of missed his chance to become the dictator that he could have been, where the people really wanted Putin to stand up or step up and seize a substantial amount of power.

02:20:42.380 But, unfortunately, that time period left.

02:20:46.120 And so Putin missed his chance.

02:20:48.620 And Dugan said this explicitly on an interview, I think, with RT.

02:20:52.580 Oh, yeah, it was 60 Minutes.

02:20:54.720 I'm just curious.

02:20:55.580 Sorry to interrupt.

02:20:56.460 It's a bottom-up dictator.

02:20:58.260 We demand that he become a dictator.

02:21:00.980 Really provocative statement.

02:21:03.800 Yeah, I remember that.

02:21:04.600 Yeah, it was very interesting.

02:21:06.160 And obviously kind of like a pushing on Putin, like you're saying.

02:21:11.360 Like, this is not necessarily just the brains behind Putin.

02:21:14.320 This is the one influencing.

02:21:20.080 Yeah, this is someone who's a potential threat.

02:21:22.080 Right.

02:21:25.620 Or may sway Putin, not because even necessarily Putin wants to be swayed, but he feels compelled after maybe being criticized.

02:21:34.600 Right.

02:21:35.160 Like, so I think it's a dangerous business, and that's just my assessment.

02:21:41.660 I don't – and I'm not claiming that, like, Ukraine are angels or something.

02:21:46.120 I just – the idea that, like, the government would do that – and, like, in America, would the CIA do that?

02:21:54.280 I mean, I think they would kind of prefer Dugan around as, like, a boogeyman or something.

02:21:59.640 Like, I don't think they're like, we must stop this man. 0.99

02:22:03.300 You know, he's – I don't think they think – unless they're a lot stupider than I give them credit for. 0.94

02:22:10.120 I just – I don't – like, using Cooey Bono as a logic, like, I just don't see it. 0.96

02:22:17.700 Also, you know, the orthodoxy wants to be a martyr, and so it would be really politically unsavvy to make a martyr out of Dugan or his daughter.

02:22:30.400 Not to switch topics, but there was that movie made by Martin Scorsese about the Japanese interaction with –

02:22:39.200 Silence.

02:22:39.240 Yes, silence, and they were very intelligent in the way that they dealt with the Christians, which was they killed – or they killed followers that the priests had created and said, 0.68

02:22:51.400 okay, here, I'll kill one of your followers if you step on – or I won't kill one of your followers if you step on – or I won't kill one of your followers if you step on the Bible, but I'll never make a martyr out of you. 0.60

02:23:00.680 Right. 0.99

02:23:00.800 And it's because they understood Christianity very well.

02:23:03.280 And it just doesn't make any sense to me that the Ukrainians, who are also orthodox, would not understand their own religion.

02:23:13.560 Right.

02:23:14.040 Yeah, and there's no question that, like, Daria Dugan is more powerful in death than she was as a young political commentator, you know, who was going on Russian television sometimes, going on RT, going on live streams.

02:23:29.260 You know, she was – I don't know.

02:23:31.380 That's exactly how –

02:23:33.540 I mean, I don't say this to be – like, I'm not being arrogant here or something, but, like, kind of like me or something.

02:23:39.180 Like, it's not – you know, like, the country isn't, like, rallying around me.

02:23:47.200 If someone brutally assassinated me or something, then they might, actually, or something.

02:23:53.100 You know what I mean?

02:23:53.700 I mean, the dissident right hates me, but if I were brutally assassinated, the dissident right would be like, we loved him.

02:24:00.300 He was the best of us.

02:24:01.860 You know.

02:24:02.980 You know.

02:24:05.160 So I think –

02:24:05.920 You've got to keep that in mind.

02:24:06.880 So I think you rightly connect Duganism like an anti-Western crusade. 1.00

02:24:17.220 Would you then say that it's innately stupid or inherently stupid for, you know, Western rightists to kind of take on Duganism like they do? 0.99

02:24:27.260 Well, yes and no. 0.99

02:24:30.060 I mean, I think that Dugan is highly intelligent, and he is interesting.

02:24:35.160 So I'm, you know, I'm enough of a free-spirit intellectual to say that, like, you know, you can address Dugan and take him seriously and criticize him or whatever.

02:24:48.760 You know, so he's not a dummy.

02:24:49.980 I mean, I think there is a lot of – there is a bit of fluff and fluff in Dugan, but there actually is a lot there.

02:24:58.120 Like, he's synthesizing a lot of things.

02:25:01.280 I mean, he's attempting to synthesize, like, Plato and Russian orthodoxy and mysticism and so on into this – and the kinder geopolitics into this, like, big thing.

02:25:14.420 And so it's interesting, and he's intelligent.

02:25:17.900 But, you know, yeah, there is a lot of, like, self-hating Westerners who, you know, have projected all these fantasies upon Russia and thinking, you know, Russia is going to – the West is evil.

02:25:36.420 We need Russia to take over the world, and we'll all be free. 0.97

02:25:40.880 You know, there's a lot of that, you know, silliness going on, too.

02:25:44.640 Speaking of hate, do you think that we're going to see a ripple, a repeat of 2018 where the GOP get a ripple just because of a type of voter called a contrarian voter who just votes against the opposition party?

02:26:04.640 And do you think that's what the Republicans were banking on last year, and they thought it would be a big wave, big 10, but now they're just going to get a few people, and it's just going to be a ripple, and it's not going to be massive, in part due to their own shenanigans?

02:26:21.740 Well, I – yeah, I mean, this is the midterm question, and, you know, it's worth talking about.

02:26:28.760 I mean, I – this is the Republicans' election to lose.

02:26:33.880 You know, I mean, as many people have pointed out, there is this off-year tendency for, like, big opposition victories.

02:26:42.140 And even in 2021, when they had kind of successfully made it about critical race theory and parental rights or something, you know, that was – those are winning issues.

02:26:55.840 And, you know, look, are they kind of overblown and – okay, sure.

02:27:01.860 But, like, they're winning issues.

02:27:04.660 And I just think things have changed. 1.00

02:27:07.340 First off, like, the accumulation of shit piling up on Trump is just too much to bear. 0.99

02:27:17.320 And he's always inserting himself in politics, so it becomes, like, a referendum on Trump, much like 2018. 0.99

02:27:26.840 And so I think that is – I also think they have some kind of uniquely bad candidates that they promoted, particularly, like, the Teal candidates. 1.00

02:27:38.420 Just kind of uniquely bad and then uniquely nuts in the sense of, like, some of these, like, Carrie Lake or whatever.

02:27:48.400 So I think they're – I do kind of see a ripple.

02:27:53.460 I mean, negative polarization is, like, the most powerful force in these elections.

02:28:01.060 And so just, like, full-on hatred of the Democrats.

02:28:03.920 The other thing is that, like, there's no – I mean, again, here I sound like a mainline pundit.

02:28:08.420 I mean, there's no question that Roe v. Wade is activating Democratic voters.

02:28:14.160 So I – I mean, I tentatively thrown out there that the Democrats are going to increase their lead in the Senate.

02:28:26.000 And particularly if you get, like, a wipeout of, like, Dr. Oz, J.D. Vance, Blake Masters, or whatever.

02:28:34.780 Like, you have all these guys just losing, like, dominoes.

02:28:39.120 I think you could have 52-48 Democrats in the Senate.

02:28:42.480 And I kind of tentatively threw out there, like, I'm wondering if it's just going to be a wash or if Republicans just fail to even win the House, that is, lose their majority.

02:28:55.160 I don't know.

02:28:56.540 I'm not sure I'm bold enough to, like, go out there and say that because I want to get things straight.

02:29:01.740 I mean, the – this is the Republicans' election to lose.

02:29:08.580 But if they don't – if they lose power in the Senate and maybe they gain, like, you know, a dozen, two dozen seats in the House, that's going to be viewed as a loss.

02:29:21.240 Like, a big loss.

02:29:24.640 So I think it's – that's kind of what I'm seeing.

02:29:29.680 And I think there's just going to be some surprises, like, a lot of Democrat – Democratic victories places.

02:29:37.260 I don't think this is good for Republicans.

02:29:39.280 And they're, like – they're just – this is the – they've squeezed the towel and there's no more water in it for this kind of, like, Trumpian stuff.

02:29:50.920 At some point, you're just activating the other side to such a large degree that it's really not worth it.

02:29:58.760 All right.

02:29:59.660 Can I ask you –

02:30:00.360 I am getting sleepy.

02:30:01.060 Oh, sorry.

02:30:01.500 Go ahead.

02:30:02.420 I'm getting a bit sleepy, so – go ahead.

02:30:05.520 Yeah.

02:30:06.460 I just want to ask you, like, is this a bit of an abstract question?

02:30:09.840 But, hey, you know, if we're getting to the end of it, maybe this is a nice place to end.

02:30:13.140 But, like, what do you – if you could theorize on the average, like, young, Trumpian, Nick Fuentes type, where do you see this person in 25 years' time?

02:30:28.300 Like, what's the end of the road if they carry on this path?

02:30:32.660 In the same place they are now.

02:30:35.440 Yeah. 1.00

02:30:36.040 Just older, watching live streams and getting mad about shit. 0.98

02:30:42.740 Speaking of which, would you ever – 0.99

02:30:44.120 Or harassing it online.

02:30:46.000 Would you ever be – to have, like, a final conversation with Fuentes, whether it's to squash the beef or finally, like, talk out all the tension that's been going on between you guys for a long time?

02:30:55.140 Or do you think that would be unproductive?

02:30:56.040 I've always said yes to that.

02:30:58.480 I've asked – people have asked me that many times, and I've basically said yes.

02:31:03.540 Oh.

02:31:04.780 So.

02:31:05.560 What about people like Georgiani?

02:31:09.900 I would talk with Georgiani.

02:31:11.640 I don't even know what Georgiani's up to at this point.

02:31:14.380 But I would talk to him.

02:31:15.520 In charge of –

02:31:17.000 Yeah, he's making his own cult as well, so.

02:31:21.780 Promoting – based on Prometheus?

02:31:23.820 Okay.

02:31:24.260 Well, I guess we have some competition out there.

02:31:26.040 Right.

02:31:29.360 Yeah, I would definitely talk with him.

02:31:31.880 I mean, I don't have any real issue with any of these people.

02:31:36.260 Would you, like, reach out to Fuentes, or have you tried?

02:31:40.460 I have not tried to reach out to Nick Fuentes in some time.

02:31:46.500 I think it goes back many years now.

02:31:50.020 I'm just not that terribly interested in Fuentes.

02:31:52.800 I mean, I – yeah.

02:31:56.040 And Fuentes' whole shtick was basically anti-me from the beginning.

02:32:00.900 I don't think he paid it – I don't think so much anymore.

02:32:05.200 But, yeah, I don't know what to say.

02:32:09.640 Like, I would almost rather – I don't really want to reconcile with people in the dissonant

02:32:20.180 right or something.

02:32:21.300 Like, I don't want to get the band back together or something.

02:32:25.280 I imagine that happens for accidents.

02:32:27.220 Yeah, I definitely want to go on my way.

02:32:30.400 So, like, you know, like, I don't really want to talk to, like, TRS people or something at this point.

02:32:37.460 It's just, like, you guys gross me out, and I just not – you know, I don't see value really there.

02:32:49.640 I mean, it's like I would much rather reach new people, and I don't want to reinvent 2017.

02:32:56.760 And, you know, so that's kind of where I am.

02:33:02.480 By any chance, is this live stream going to be posted?

02:33:04.720 Because I would love to, like, clip some of it.

02:33:06.680 Yeah, it will be recorded.

02:33:08.820 Actually, if anyone – I guess I could download the recording, and I'll put it up on Substack or something like that.

02:33:15.040 Because I do think they delete recordings after a while, so –

02:33:18.960 Yeah, I just want to clip some of our conversations.

02:33:23.080 It's been a pretty –

02:33:24.380 Sorry.

02:33:24.880 Flip it.

02:33:25.400 Just put it up.

02:33:26.180 You don't have to give it to me.

02:33:27.160 Just put it up on your own wherever you want.

02:33:28.560 Yeah, for sure.

02:33:29.480 I give you my informator.

02:33:34.300 Okay, real quick.

02:33:35.840 Mike, and then I'm too tired.

02:33:37.080 And then I'm too tired.

02:33:38.200 So, Mike.

02:33:39.600 Okay.

02:33:40.360 Thanks, Rich.

02:33:42.400 Are there any –

02:33:43.760 Why do you call me rich all the time?

02:33:45.520 Why do I do that?

02:33:46.600 I'm sorry.

02:33:47.240 You corrected me before.

02:33:48.520 I'm sorry, Richard.

02:33:49.820 Are there any people on the far right that you get along with despite their political views?

02:33:57.900 I think I more or less get along with most people.

02:34:02.440 I mean, it's just a question –

02:34:04.640 Yeah, I mean, yeah.

02:34:06.900 Sure.

02:34:08.240 Okay.

02:34:08.600 And then is there any literature or posts that you have that encapsulates your reason for going from the far right to, I guess, whatever you want to call yourself now, a liberal?

02:34:24.160 I've caught bits and pieces of it when I listen to the spaces, but I've never heard the full idea of why you kind of did the 180.

02:34:33.440 I haven't done a 180, and I'm not a liberal.

02:34:39.980 Okay.

02:34:41.420 But you know what I mean.

02:34:42.780 You're on the far right, but now you have ideas that are kind of antithetical to the far right, and I just want to know how that came about.

02:34:50.440 I know you don't want to explain it now, but is there anything you've written?

02:34:53.880 Everything that I've written.

02:34:55.420 I mean, it's like – I think the Trump era was more of an aberration than anything else.

02:35:03.300 I think I'm coming home.

02:35:06.100 All right.

02:35:06.620 I love that idea of getting the band back together, and I really think sometime in the future that's going to happen.

02:35:13.460 Well, okay.

02:35:16.520 I'm rooting for you.

02:35:17.640 I think we might want to be in a different band.

02:35:22.340 Well, maybe it's a modified band.

02:35:24.620 For a musical project that I was talking about with you, you and Nick can be your own little industrial rock band.

02:35:32.780 Maybe.

02:35:33.180 And Destiny's a good composer.

02:35:34.780 Speaking of which, I would love to see you actually have a conversation with him.

02:35:38.280 Well, actually, I kind of dropped the ball a little bit on that.

02:35:43.080 There was some push towards that, and I suggested a topic for debate, and he didn't want to debate it because he agreed with me, which was kind of funny.

02:35:54.700 What was it about?

02:35:54.980 And then I kind of dropped the ball.

02:35:56.620 I got really busy this summer.

02:35:59.260 Let me put that together.

02:36:00.360 I don't think Destiny is hostile towards having a good faith debate.

02:36:06.760 So you're not the first to suggest that, so I'll try to get that going again.

02:36:11.520 Better than Mike from PA or Vosch.

02:36:16.420 Yeah.

02:36:17.260 I mean, Vosch is kind of fascinating because he's smart in many ways and then really annoying in a lot of ways.

02:36:28.680 Yeah.

02:36:29.600 And I don't think he would debate me, actually.

02:36:32.580 Maybe he would, even though he says he'll talk to anyone.

02:36:35.760 Because I think he much prefers, like, debating a kind of unknown, unsophisticated white nationalist that he can just, like, slam dunk on.

02:36:49.060 Yeah.

02:36:49.500 He doesn't really like to debate people he knows that he might not have a chance against.

02:36:53.580 Like, his excuse is always, I don't want to platform these people because it sets whatever presidents.

02:36:58.160 But he platforms people who are, like, much worse than I am.

02:37:01.940 Like, I've seen his debate.

02:37:04.200 So I almost, yeah, that's my read on him.

02:37:08.320 I don't, I mean, I would do it.

02:37:10.880 But I'm almost thinking he would kind of, like, weasel out of it.

02:37:17.160 That's what Destiny is about at the time.

02:37:18.940 Yeah.

02:37:21.940 So, because he likes, that's kind of his shtick is to just dunk on, you know, I mean, he's debating people effectively on his show, but he's debating them in absentia.

02:37:34.360 I mean, he's playing their clips and just, like, dunking, you know, rightfully in many ways.

02:37:41.300 But, like, you know, it's, it's not fair.

02:37:48.240 So, I don't know.

02:37:49.500 I would talk to him.

02:37:50.300 I doubt he would do it.

02:37:52.000 I think a lot of his content is kind of interesting.

02:37:55.160 I think a lot of it, you know, annoys me to a degree.

02:37:59.400 He is kind of sincere.

02:38:01.140 He does have a perspective.

02:38:02.480 And I do agree with him that there is a kind of Marxism that you shouldn't conflate with Bolshevism or the Soviet Union or anything.

02:38:13.180 I do think that you could genuinely call yourself a Marxist and not be kind of, like, caught up in that legacy.

02:38:23.260 But, so, yeah, I find him, I find him smart and interesting.

02:38:27.460 I've listened to Destiny less, but he's a smart guy.

02:38:34.280 Yeah.

02:38:35.420 Yeah.

02:38:36.100 Yeah, makes sense.

02:38:38.560 All right, guys.

02:38:39.520 For the most part, I think he'll let you.

02:38:41.040 Well, yeah, have a good night, man.

02:38:42.460 You too.

02:38:43.000 Guys, sleepy.

02:38:43.880 So, I will talk to you all soon.

02:38:46.940 Thank you for jumping on.

02:38:48.920 And I appreciate everyone, especially those who ask questions.

02:38:53.800 So, I will see you guys on the flip side.

02:38:56.880 Peace out.

02:38:57.460 Peace out.

RadixJournal - September 14, 2022

The Case Against ＂Free Speech＂

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