The Elon Question
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Summary
In this episode, Mark and Andy discuss the possibility that Elon Musk is going to take over the wild west of social media, and whether it will be as wild as the alt-right days of 2015 and 2016.
Transcript
00:00:04.460
Over the past six months, there seems to have been this rumor that Elon was taking over
00:00:12.680
Twitter and he was going to turn it into the Wild West.
00:00:17.320
Now, I think a lot of people have bought into that rumor on both the dissident right and
00:00:25.740
I noted that there were a few small time liberal celebrities that are, you know, we've left
00:00:35.560
And I can remember when Elon first put forward his offer and it was accepted by Twitter.
00:00:43.860
This was before he tried to back out and we had this legal battle that he capitulated on.
00:00:49.520
But anyway, there was this day of rage, as they say in the Middle East, of all of these
00:00:59.920
banned accounts coming back, people doing Twitter spaces where the N-word was dropped with reckless
00:01:09.780
And there was just this notion that it was going to be 2015 all over again.
00:01:15.420
I think a lot of those expectations have been dampened.
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And I think a lot of those expectations were ridiculous to begin with.
00:01:23.920
I actually did a little monologue on why Elon Musk is actually not buying Twitter so that
00:01:35.320
And but I think there are a couple of factors here.
00:01:38.720
First off, you know, to be honest, I do have a bit of nostalgia for the crazy alt-right days
00:01:53.660
Just the deranged memes, these hilarious videos where Trump was an 80s beach Miami Vice icon
00:02:05.720
or an anime villain or something like this and the kind of craziness that was going on
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I to use some of your technology, I do our terminology rather.
00:02:20.280
I do think that there was a kind of Dionysian quality to it all where it was just all crazy
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and you got caught up in the frenzy and you could throw rationality and sobriety out the
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It was just wild and we felt like we were winning.
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So I'll admit to some nostalgia for that period.
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But I also have sobered up and I would say that those days are not going to return whatever
00:02:54.160
He's going to have to monetize this thing and he has pressures that he will bow to.
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But I would even go further and I think you'll agree with me that those days shouldn't return.
00:03:07.800
But let me pass over to you to get your response to that.
00:03:11.840
Yeah, no, I mean, I think, yeah, it's hard to like in hindsight, I think I've developed a
00:03:20.480
sort of jaundiced view of that time where I feel like because, you know, because you can
00:03:27.240
look at it in hindsight and that we're kind of being, you know, led down the primrose path
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It's hard to kind of I, you know, I think at the time, yeah, I had a lot of the same enthusiasm.
00:03:44.140
Um, but it's, um, um, yeah, it was a kind of Dionysian moment.
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Um, Andy, but I, you know, I think that I also, and probably you and others, uh, but
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I think I, I think I also had a sense that, um, well, let's see where this goes.
00:04:05.040
Um, but I don't know that any of us were completely sold.
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Like we were never really totally sold on Trump.
00:04:12.200
And, uh, and then gradually we became, or somewhat rapidly we became disillusioned with Trump
00:04:20.780
Um, but, um, yeah, I don't, it's, it's a, um, it's a different time now, definitely.
00:04:28.360
Um, and I think that, but I think also people are aware of this.
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So I think that I, when you say that people are coming back on with the expectation, uh, that
00:04:36.920
it's going to be 2016 again, uh, and I don't think you're saying this exactly.
00:04:40.860
I think that there are people are also kind of leery and, and don't in, or, you know, waiting
00:04:48.000
for the other shoe to drop, so to speak, and don't know if they can trust Musk, uh, you
00:04:54.100
know, just because of all this sort of, uh, high expectations and, and, and dash dreams
00:04:59.920
that they've had in the past in, in 2016, I think that people are, are a little more kind
00:05:06.820
Um, now, I, I mean, to me though, I think that what is, what is interesting is I think
00:05:14.280
that a lot of people are coming back on and in, you know, in, in the leftists are, are
00:05:19.400
actually talking about it in these terms in the media that they're coming on and they're
00:05:22.780
sort of kind of testing, um, you know, how far they can go with the free speech, um, free
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speech in quotation marks, um, where they're just, you know, they, they're just trying
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to be sort of outrageous and, and, you know, see if, uh, the N word, for example, is still
00:05:40.620
Um, and, you know, I, I think it's kind of not really a, you know, from my perspective,
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Like I think a better approach would be for people to come onto, uh, Twitter and just kind
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of treat it as a different face to their sort of, you know, their media campaigns, which
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may have also another kind of subterranean dimension on websites that you can't necessarily
00:06:06.080
Um, and just make it their kind of more professional face where they, they speak in a more sober
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minded way and let it be their portal to this other world that they want to retain as well.
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But in general, I think that people probably should be professionalizing and just not being
00:06:24.400
as kind of ridiculous as, uh, they were in 2016.
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Well, I think you're, I, I, I obviously agree with you on a basic level, but I, I do think
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Um, first off, I don't think there's much to a lot of these people outside of yelling the
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N word on Twitter or, uh, you know, harassing Jewish journalist or whatever.
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And, uh, secondly, on, on kind of a more technological level, I, I agree 100% when Elon Musk or even
00:07:07.940
Jack Dorsey before him said that Twitter is a town hall and, um, it is these social media
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I mean, a website is great and all, but it actually doesn't mean a whole heck of a lot.
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And there are people who are social media only.
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In fact, and for better and for worse, that's probably where the most, uh, influential and
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potent ideological activity takes place is Twitter and YouTube and so on.
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And these are at the end of the day, private platforms.
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I mean, not only has the, is the web kind of dead in the sense of when you would log on
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I think it's actually more profound because Trump Trump's campaign was a watermark and
00:08:07.500
you can see precedence for it with Ron Paul in, in both 2008 and 2012, where he was the
00:08:15.300
candidate from the internet in the sense that if you ask a Fox news or a CNN pundit, what
00:08:25.000
They would be, they would basically say Ron who, or that's really cute that you're talking
00:08:32.940
But if you went to the internet, he was doing massive fundraising, uh, online.
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You can even see this in, um, the democratic candidate, uh, from Maine.
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I'm forgetting his, uh, the guy who yelled out, like, we're going to Nebraska in 2004.
00:08:51.180
Um, maybe you don't like we're taking Nebraska.
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He was actually, are we going to New Hampshire, Tom Harkin?
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We're going to South Carolina and Oklahoma and Arizona and North Dakota and New Mexico.
00:09:05.480
We're going to California and Texas and New York.
00:09:08.720
And we're going to South Dakota and Oregon and Washington and Michigan.
00:09:13.460
And then we're going to Washington DC to take back the white house.
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He was actually a fairly interesting candidate.
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Uh, but, uh, you know, he, some of this even started with him, but then it morphed into
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And then all of that energy went to Trump on, on both in terms of people who are extremely
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online and rather savvy about it, but then also in terms of normies.
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So by 2016, normies were getting their news and their information and their punditry, et cetera,
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from the internet and from social media in particular.
00:09:57.760
And so previously a, a major, you know, the mayor of Des Moines, Iowa or whatever could
00:10:05.180
denounce Trump and, and, um, endorse someone else or something like that by 2016 and 2015,
00:10:13.440
the people weren't getting that information from the nightly news or their newspaper.
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They were seeing, they were getting their take on it from Trump.
00:10:22.780
And so he could be, he could not mention it at all, or just basically say, Oh, you know,
00:10:28.060
the swamp is striking back at me because they know I'm a threat to their existence.
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You know, uh, corrupt mayor of Des Moines, Iowa has endorsed lion Ted Cruz, you know, this
00:10:39.600
And so they'd, they'd almost have the take even before they learned about it from a reputable
00:10:47.100
And so we kind of like pass through the looking glass and it was also 2016.
00:10:51.860
That was the first time that genuinely fake news was surpassing mainstream media.
00:11:03.780
And again, I'm not passing judgment on any of these institutions.
00:11:08.940
I mean, to a degree, you could say that discussions in the New York times about weapons of mass
00:11:18.720
And, and, and you would have a point if you said that, but these were stories like the Pope
00:11:24.460
endorses Trump or Hillary Clinton is a member of ISIS.
00:11:32.560
These were getting more traction than a mainstream article from USA today.
00:11:37.980
So it really was that crazy alt-right moment when we kind of like went through the looking
00:11:48.460
We, if things kind of flipped over where social media wasn't kind of like an add on or a way
00:11:55.480
to create enthusiasm or just another Avenue, it had surpassed and even displaced mainstream.
00:12:04.180
And the mainstream was then kind of reacting to social media.
00:12:08.960
And I don't, you know, this flip still takes place today.
00:12:14.180
And I don't think we fully like contemplated the, uh, effects of this for good and for real.
00:12:23.860
I mean, it was, uh, it was to one extent, a kind of democratizing of media generally.
00:12:30.060
So, um, social media is a democratization of media.
00:12:35.700
Now, um, I think that we're now we're people, uh, you know, sort of the establishment or the
00:12:42.600
money to powers are realizing that, um, that's not going to totally work for them.
00:12:48.880
So it's, so now we're seeing, um, you know, things are starting to settle a little bit more,
00:12:55.280
um, in terms of what this relationship is going to be like, you know, I mean, at the end of
00:13:00.880
the day, of course, it's, um, uh, capital always rules.
00:13:05.100
So if, if you have resources, you're always going to have a louder voice regardless.
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In that regard, it's always going to be a kind of a plutocracy.
00:13:13.300
Um, but the, but there are other ways to gain a voice of course.
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And, and it is still essentially a kind of democratic structure.
00:13:20.980
Media is now democratic, which is, so it is a kind of an amazing
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I mean, Ricky Vaughn, I don't know what, how much money he invested in his Twitter account.
00:13:33.800
And he did have, or developed some connections to GOP people, including people connected to
00:13:44.860
The fact is, you know, for good and for ill, he was a guy tweeting and you could say the
00:13:51.440
same for, um, Oh, I keep, uh, I'm forgetting names to that crazy guy who just basically
00:13:59.500
Trump could slip on a banana peel and he would be like, this is great.
00:14:06.600
And when you agree with what QAnon does and says or not, they are, they're great patriots.
00:14:15.480
I said two, two things, uh, one or two things are true with the whole QAnon thing.
00:14:20.100
Um, if it is just, um, uh, um, something that's interesting to talk about, if it's just patriots
00:14:27.660
getting together and postulating about what the deep state might be doing and what Donald
00:14:30.680
Trump might be doing about it, and it's just ends up being just a fun thing that keeps everybody
00:14:41.580
There's a possibility that it could all be true and that it could all be for, uh, for telling
00:14:46.880
the, the destruction of the deep state and what the Trump plan is for the deep state, trust
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So one way or the other, either it's a harmless fun thing or it's true.
00:14:56.080
And it's going to be the destruction of deep state to me.
00:15:05.240
And there were probably a collection of people like this.
00:15:07.840
This is a big Twitter account or someone like that.
00:15:10.600
He got banned for spreading QAnon, which is like not at all surprising just to continue.
00:15:24.440
You probably know who I'm talking about, but again, what kind of capital was behind that
00:15:40.780
I mean, if you are somewhat snappy and if you kind of go with the herd, you kind of
00:15:46.600
realize you have some sixth sense where you can kind of tell where things are going and
00:15:51.560
you're always like rooting them on and you tweet a hundred times a day, you're going to
00:15:59.940
And you actually are going to have tremendous amount of influence, uh, which both of those
00:16:06.260
And a key to that is you have to, uh, you have to be bringing sort of, uh, glad tidings,
00:16:11.700
So in other words, it has to be an optimistic message.
00:16:15.060
Um, I mean, this is really the kind of the root of, or a radically pessimistic.
00:16:20.640
I lives of Tik TOK is another, you know, that's kind of like you live in hell is what
00:16:25.860
she is telling Hayim or whatever her name is, is telling you every day, but, but go on.
00:16:34.300
So maybe my thesis is totally incorrect, but, um, I do think that there is, there is at least
00:16:39.780
a type of, uh, um, you know, social media personality that gains currency by basically,
00:16:47.240
uh, to camp, uh, uh, by coattailing and cheerleading, you know, uh, movements like the MAGA movement.
00:16:55.000
Um, and, and by basically bringing glad tidings, like we're winning, we're winning, right?
00:17:01.820
Probably something people like to hear that, of course, right?
00:17:05.020
Now, uh, there may also be a black pill equivalent to that.
00:17:09.140
Um, you know, I, I, I, but I, I, I, I would venture to guess that the, the stronger, uh, current
00:17:17.280
or tendency is to basically white pill and you get beyond whatever, uh, and get behind
00:17:23.980
whatever, uh, you know, in our sphere, at least get behind any, uh, conservative movement
00:17:28.680
that appears to be gaining momentum or having success.
00:17:33.280
Um, you know, so it's in, that also becomes, uh, for some, of course, it also becomes a way
00:17:39.060
of grifting, um, but, uh, and it, and, uh, it is kind of, um, it's a way of like sort
00:17:47.240
of amplifying things that are not necessarily useful movements or directions, um, and kind
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of wildly amplifying them because you get a lot of like accounts or social media accounts
00:18:00.060
Uh, and, and they'll do it no matter how, uh, uh, you know, sort of black pilling, uh, events
00:18:07.180
So it's, you know, they, they're never, it doesn't seem like they're ever sobered by
00:18:14.780
Um, you know, for example, Trump getting elected and, and kind of failing to, uh, live up to
00:18:21.320
his obligations, uh, towards his, uh, constituency.
00:18:26.460
So there does also seem to be, sorry to cut you off.
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Uh, I don't know where he is now, probably gab, uh, but there, there also seems to be
00:18:42.340
And that's not to say that, um, uh, there aren't like left wing equivalents.
00:18:48.840
I, I remember reading about Brooklyn dad or some, one of these guys who was a fairly popular
00:18:56.920
left wing account and he was getting paid, not big bucks, but you know, 5,000 here.
00:19:04.600
10,000 there, you know, pretty good money, I guess, uh, for tweeting and for tweeting
00:19:13.260
And the reason why he was getting paid is because he had more traction as this authentic, um,
00:19:22.700
Like I'm just a guy, I'm a Brooklyn dad and, and between, you know, PTA meetings and fixing
00:19:29.320
dinner, I'm going to tweet about how Joe Biden's great and Trump is a fascist or something like
00:19:34.740
And, you know, that was probably money well spent actually from this campaign.
00:19:39.640
So there are left wing equivalents, but I, I think there is this kind of right wing quality
00:19:49.860
And I think it says something about the position that the right understands itself in.
00:19:54.800
Like you go to Bill Mitchell to get your 40 chess copium because the New York times won't
00:20:04.000
You know, the New, the New York times is, has a liberal slant of course, but you know, deals
00:20:09.960
and facts and balancing their statements and so on.
00:20:15.020
Um, and so there's this almost kind of like Gnostic quality.
00:20:18.900
And I, I mean that in a loose sense, of course, of, you know, don't believe the lying media.
00:20:25.780
They're all evil and ridiculous, but like Bill Mitchell, like he'll tell you the real
00:20:30.700
truth that Jesus is coming back tomorrow morning or something like that.
00:20:38.800
I mean, again, not that there aren't left wing equivalents, but this does seem to be
00:20:47.520
And I guess there's a certain irony to that in the sense that when people were for singing
00:20:52.900
the praises of the internet, you know, 25 years ago, I don't think they imagined this
00:20:59.940
would be, you know, the most prominent force on it would be 4chan and QAnon.
00:21:10.160
Yeah, no, I mean, and now, so I guess we have this situation where, uh, Musk is, um, now in
00:21:18.420
control of Twitter and he, uh, is, uh, going to set a new direction ostensibly.
00:21:24.300
Um, he's recently met with, uh, ADL heads, um, which, you know, much to the sort of horror
00:21:35.300
Um, and, you know, in, in, in, on some level, you get a sense that it may be more of the
00:21:43.180
Um, which I think that you and I had, uh, sort of girded ourselves for that possibility.
00:21:48.060
Like, I don't, I don't think that either you or I were, um, had any delusions about
00:21:52.820
And I'm sure that's the case with many people, uh, the dissident right, especially that people
00:21:56.800
have, who have been in the dissident right, you know, since 2016 or 2015.
00:22:02.220
Um, so, but I, you know, to me though, it's interesting to, like, I, I wonder what he's
00:22:11.100
going to do different because I actually think that he'll probably tried it.
00:22:15.180
Like, I do think it, I do think his interests were genuine.
00:22:19.080
Now they, they ultimately, I don't know that, um, like rather his interest in free speech
00:22:24.360
was a genuine interest because otherwise, I mean, on some level it is kind of a turd of
00:22:30.420
It's a, it's a holy, it's a, it's a, um, a very kind of overpriced company that he's
00:22:35.440
bought, um, that is not, it's not a profitable, uh, company, uh, currently.
00:22:41.380
Um, so I think that he is actually doing this as a kind of activist, that he is interested
00:22:52.680
I mean, it's also a kind of, uh, a passion project in the sense that I think he really loves
00:23:03.700
Uh, and it allows him to be a kind of media tycoon because now he's, you know, it's social
00:23:08.540
media, which is, has risen as one of these major forms of media.
00:23:13.300
Um, so I think that there are things that are, that he, uh, it is a labor of love.
00:23:19.620
Um, and I think that his interest in free speech or issues surrounding free speech or
00:23:25.120
genuine, um, and I, and who knows, because I, you know, he's not going to hear our voice.
00:23:32.760
Maybe some of these ideas will kind of trickle up to him or maybe, hopefully he's already
00:23:42.000
Um, because I, no, because I think that, um, I think that there are directions that he
00:23:47.380
could, you know, if I were, uh, Elon Musk, um, I think that one thing that I would consider
00:23:53.080
doing is, is like, uh, sort of like rigorously banning racial epithets.
00:24:03.980
I know that in, and I, so I'm not going to be like, so, uh, this is not a position that
00:24:08.760
like, if you disagree with me on this position, I'm, I'm going to, uh, unfollow you or block
00:24:14.240
I, I, I think I understand the argument that, um, well, you know, because the counter argument
00:24:19.820
would be kind of more of a libertarian argument and it would be like, well, that's a slippery
00:24:24.480
And if you ban, uh, you know, racial epithets, which are protected free speech and obviously,
00:24:31.220
and obviously they should remain protected free speech, but I'm talking, I'm talking
00:24:36.360
specifically about the, um, house rules on Twitter on the platform.
00:24:46.580
One is execution and enforcement of, you know, what, what speech codes effectively, because
00:24:53.020
one way or another, there's going to be speech codes on, on Twitter.
00:24:55.900
I mean, that's just something that, that's obviously, um, that's something that he's
00:25:09.040
And I, I don't think either of us want it to be a hellscape either.
00:25:12.240
Um, but, but if I were him and there were a good system, because I mean, again, part of
00:25:18.660
it is the policy and then the other part of it is the kind of execution of the policy.
00:25:23.900
And I guess a third part of it would be the people executing the policy.
00:25:28.060
Um, so there's, there's many kind of like pieces to this mechanism, um, that, uh, that
00:25:34.480
he would have to, uh, sort of wield, uh, to make Twitter a kind of more desirable, uh,
00:25:45.080
Um, but if, if I were him, that, that is something that I, I would consider.
00:25:49.900
Now, I, again, I understand the arguments against it.
00:25:52.060
It's a slippery slope, but again, you know, the counter argument is we're only talking about
00:25:56.720
We're not talking about free speech generally, but other people might say, well, uh, but,
00:26:05.080
So it could say, well, yeah, but think about it, but before you go on, I, I, you have more
00:26:10.220
to say, I mean, think about it arguing with myself, but yeah, well, think about it this
00:26:15.800
I mean, yes, the N word is, is protected speech in the sense that, yeah, I think everyone
00:26:24.300
would be outraged if you were arrested for that or even find, um, although there are some
00:26:31.140
examples of that in, in, uh, great Britain and so on, but this is America.
00:26:36.000
Um, but the fact is, if you, if you think of Twitter as a town hall, it is a, a, a zone
00:26:45.660
for discussion and free speech, uh, Jack Dorsey even used like a global consciousness or something,
00:26:55.980
Um, you can't go out onto a, so in that sense, it's replacing public spaces that we had previously,
00:27:02.740
um, maybe some more private, like the local coffee shop or bar, maybe the more, maybe some
00:27:07.820
of them were public, like the sidewalk, particularly the sidewalk outside of a public building where
00:27:13.940
You can't go out onto a sidewalk and run up into someone's face and start yelling racial
00:27:22.260
That's not protected speech that you're going to be arrested for that rightfully.
00:27:28.780
And yeah, it's a little bit different if you're not, if you're not just directly harassing
00:27:34.520
someone, you can get, you know, rough in, um, your protest.
00:27:41.780
And I support that actually, I think people should have the ability to, uh, you know, be
00:27:48.180
a bit edgy or vulgar or combative or something in, in their rhetoric when they're protesting
00:27:55.440
something, sure, but you can't harass people and you're going to get thrown out of whatever
00:28:05.400
If you're just dropping in bombs constantly, you know, I mean, like it, I think what the
00:28:13.600
thing is of, of these people, I mean, first off my criticism would be, there's nothing much
00:28:18.360
to them outside of the M bomb, but secondly, they, they almost believe that they have like
00:28:24.380
infinite rights on the internet, that the internet is somehow special.
00:28:29.000
And if you're gonna, if you're gonna understand these platforms as a public space to at least
00:28:35.120
some degree, and I think they should be, you know, you have a little, you have, you have
00:28:39.840
more right to say protest in some way in a shopping mall than you do at someone's house.
00:28:48.280
If you walk into their house, you can't say, well, this is a protest or whatever.
00:28:53.920
Now, could you hold up a sign and like protest a company that's, you know, I don't know, killing
00:29:03.120
You, you, you kind of have expanded rights in a private zone, like a shopping mall, for
00:29:10.920
Uh, but you know, if we, if we take that and we, we, you know, project that onto the internet,
00:29:21.760
You just can't do whatever you want, regardless of whether it's a private or public space.
00:29:28.440
And I, you know, I feel like my own personal trajectory on this was that when, you know,
00:29:37.920
when we were first, when people were first getting banned on Twitter, it did seem, you
00:29:43.940
know, arbitrary and highly politically motivated.
00:29:48.000
And my response then was like, well, you have to think of it as a private place that where
00:29:57.160
I think I'm just kind of pushing back, you know, from the other end at this point in
00:30:03.440
my life, maybe it has something to do with age, but I, I think it has just a lot to do
00:30:09.620
with the fact that I recognize just how endlessly toxic this kind of atmosphere can become.
00:30:17.840
No one, if you're on Twitter and you're trying to make a point, you don't want to be on 4chan where
00:30:26.260
there is endless scatological fake misrepresentations, gross pornographic nonsense, 24 seven.
00:30:44.620
And if that's all the movement is, if you're, if you're just this free speech warrior, because
00:30:47.620
you, you know, post porn and lie about people and drop the N bomb or the K word or what, whatever
00:30:56.300
the hell, you know, I'm just kind of done at this point.
00:31:04.280
They're not genuinely trying to, to add to discourse.
00:31:08.420
I mean, free speech is the ideal of free speech is based on a general level of good faith.
00:31:16.400
You know, like you're trying to contribute to discourse.
00:31:21.800
And if you're not, you can get bent in my view.
00:31:27.080
You, you have, there, there has to be a basic assumption of good faith, you know, and you
00:31:35.840
Fine, but you are genuinely attempting to contribute to discourse or otherwise free speech is meaningless
00:31:43.380
and, you know, and it can also have rather dangerous effects.
00:31:51.860
The, uh, Russia, Russia, Russia narrative might very well have been overstated by Rachel Maddow
00:32:00.820
and those types of people that, you know, Trump is in control or there are the Kremlin's in
00:32:12.480
There's no doubt that foreign actors are, are seeking or would like to seek to pollute the
00:32:23.400
discourse and make our societies much worse in order to benefit theirs in the kind of zero
00:32:38.060
So this is a real thing and you don't have infinite rights as a user of the internet.