The Hashtag Wars
Episode Stats
Words per Minute
175.48425
Summary
Jack Dorsey joins Jemele to discuss the hashtag war and why no one cares anymore about all women anymore. Plus, why women are more oppressed than they ve ever been in the history of the world.
Transcript
00:00:00.000
So, Jack, how many people do you think died last weekend because they were run over by women texting all women while driving?
00:00:14.400
But there's a strong possibility that while women were texting their woes about men checking them out and trying to buy them drinks and trying to hold doors for them, that possibly they ran over pedestrians in their Porsche Cayennes.
00:00:33.040
Yeah. Poor men who are out running errands for their wives and girlfriends.
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Yes. Yes. Poor slaves out there doing hard work that goes unrecognized because, yes, all women.
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So what was all women? You actually took part a little bit in this hashtag war, I hear.
00:01:06.180
Well, I can tell you, I fought in the battle of Joyce Carol Oates.
00:01:11.760
Well, I was on Facebook, but I really wanted to go.
00:01:28.660
I had other stuff to do and I could just play along with it for a while.
00:01:31.280
And so I sat there and Joyce Carol Oates was tweeting a bunch of yes, all women things about, oh, well, why do men get so upset when women just want respect?
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And, you know, I was I was tweeting her back like respect is earned.
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What do you mean? What kind of respect do you want?
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I was hoping that she would say something terrible to me so that I could use it to promote my book.
00:02:03.500
And, you know, it's it was just it was really one one guy nailed it.
00:02:11.880
You know, where women got to get on there and say how oppressed they were and kind of in a way say how desired they were.
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Exactly. You know, and it was kind of it was kind of this one guy just went off on them all day.
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I retweeted almost everything when he posted because it was hilarious.
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It was but it was it was pretty funny to troll that.
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And I was also trolled some of the you know, of course, you know, you have anything you time you have women saying, oh, we're oppressed.
00:02:47.760
You'll have some white knights sweep in and say, yes, women are so oppressed, even though they're, you know, less oppressed than they've ever been in the history of the world.
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And those white knights are just trying to get laid.
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Either trying to get laid or their gay best friends trying to support, you know, girls.
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I just imagine them all sitting there and, you know, like in high chairs at some cocktail lounge.
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And they're just saying, yes, all women while they're, you know, you know, drinking cosmopolitan's together.
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But nevertheless, it is a broad swath of the population of really the world population.
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I mean, we can joke about the hashtag doctrine or someone like Suey Park, who seems kind of like a cute little girl who has mental problems.
00:03:48.080
It's hard for me not to feel sorry for her, actually, despite the fact that she is a completely obnoxious, I won't say the word.
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But, you know, in a way, we can make fun of them properly.
00:04:07.540
There's a hive mind quality to to things like Twitter, where everyone really is on the same page and all of this phony outrage.
00:04:16.620
Well, actually, the the tweet that I made that was retweeted the most was hashtag.
00:04:22.300
Yes, all women will be passionate about whatever hashtag the media tells them to be care about next week.
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And people like that one, because that's I, I, I observe with glee that I don't think today it is trending anymore.
00:04:44.280
Right now it is Jay Carney, T-Cott, White House, some unpronounceable name, Tito, Starbucks, Taco Bell, and Josh Earnest, whoever those people are.
00:04:56.220
So that's, that's what is on the, you know, on the minds of America today.
00:05:01.900
Well, I'm sure it would be funny just to get a screenshot of like, all women, and then cancel Colbert, and then Taco Bell.
00:05:08.780
Like, like, like, like, bullshit feminist causes followed by like, disgusting fast food.
00:05:29.900
I mean, don't you think they're, I guess I would say, what do you think is behind these, these feminist things?
00:05:38.780
I mean, I guess you could say, like, what wave are we in?
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Because it's, as you were saying, you know, it's not, it's a kind of, it's all women are
00:05:46.960
oppressed in the sense that all of these guys are eyeing me and asking me out and rubbing
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up against my breast or something on the subway, which are all this, you know, kind of indirect
00:05:58.800
manner of self-aggrandizement, of I am desired and I am beautiful.
00:06:04.740
So, I mean, is that kind of where we've ended up with feminism?
00:06:08.780
Well, no, it's just, you know, women want to feel special.
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I think we all can agree that everybody wants to feel special and women want to feel special
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and in our culture, being victimized makes you special and also being desired makes you
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So that's, you know, that's a twofer right there.
00:06:30.220
So, you know, they get to be divided, you know, desired and special at the same time.
00:06:34.360
Um, and, uh, but as far as any kind of movement goes, I mean, these things, I, I, I mean, I
00:06:43.760
don't know, I can't put the finger on who, uh, started this particular one.
00:06:49.180
Um, I'm sure someone knows somewhere I can't be bothered to even Google that, but, uh, you
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know, the people who, you know, get behind it and push it are a lot of times these feminists
00:07:01.020
with a lot of followers, um, who really write clickbait articles almost every week.
00:07:08.460
And, uh, you know, and, and, uh, you know, about how women are oppressed because, you
00:07:15.800
I mean, that's what it's, you know, it's, uh, I don't know, like Michael Moore tweeting
00:07:23.880
I don't know, whatever he tweets about that he cares about.
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But I, uh, another person I don't give a shit about, but, uh, but yeah, no, he, you
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know, it, it, that's their job is to write about this in many ways.
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Like it's, it's our job to, to write about things that, uh, disgust us about modernity
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and, uh, you know, the current state of affairs in the world.
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So, I mean, I don't think sometimes it's any more than that is these people riling, you
00:07:53.060
know, tapping into the, you know, women and everybody's need to feel special and desired
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And, uh, you know, I think people love to jump on these bandwagons, but then forget about
00:08:04.820
Do you think there's been a kind of collapse of the left?
00:08:08.200
Um, I, I've had this, I've had this article brewing in my head alongside the other 20 articles
00:08:14.640
that I've, uh, promised myself that I'm going to write, but one of them seems to be like
00:08:22.400
Like we always think that we live in this leftist society and blah, blah, blah, but in
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a way the, the left has collapsed into the politics of outrage and, and just nonsense
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like this, basically, if the left is no longer a revolution, the left is no longer a revolutionary
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It's also not a force that threatens the establishment in any way, shape or form.
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It's a conservative force, conservatism, conservatism, progressivism and conservatism are the same
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Anyone who's, any, anyone who still calls himself a conservative and is not a progressive is,
00:09:03.560
Like it's all bullshit outrage politics that we see now because there's in a way nothing
00:09:10.020
left like outside, you know, transgender marriage or I don't know what, what's next.
00:09:18.640
I mean, we, we live, it's, it's just, I mean, I guess you could say that in terms, there,
00:09:23.820
there clearly is inequality of the human race and the sense that, you know, if you look at,
00:09:30.760
you know, who's, who's making a lot of money, who are, who was, who's doing entrepreneurship,
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who's, you know, so on and so forth, there is clear gender inequality that will probably never
00:09:42.640
go away outside of some kind of totalitarian society.
00:09:50.260
But, you know, in, in the sense of rights or in the sense of just being recognized, I mean,
00:09:57.080
I think a lot of, I can even understand a lot of early feminism of just wanting to be
00:10:05.560
Uh, and, uh, but it seems like that has kind of been done with.
00:10:13.080
I mean, Sui Park, we shouldn't make fun of her because she is in a way gotten, like she
00:10:19.060
has mastered the zeitgeist in a way that, that, that, that few have.
00:10:24.420
Like she, in a way really gets it, that it's all about bullshit outrage.
00:10:29.460
And that's what it's, I mean, if you think of even like the neocons, I'm sorry to go
00:10:33.160
off on a tangent here, but I think this is getting at something.
00:10:35.560
I mean, I was thinking like, you know, the neocons of an earlier generation, uh, like
00:10:39.900
their, the grandparent neocons were like arguing about Trotsky and Stalin and the dialectic of
00:10:47.120
history and blah, blah, blah, you know, and then like their, their children were, you know,
00:10:52.380
Oh, let's go work in the Pentagon and, you know, create the Iraq war or something.
00:10:56.940
And then the grandchildren are like, let's get a, you know, I'm thinking about Jamie
00:11:04.320
Let's get a, a Russia today reporter to resign on air.
00:11:10.600
You know, it's just, it's just, everyone is trolling.
00:11:17.980
Trolling is like, it's trolling is the new politics.
00:11:23.920
Well, actually, I mean, Jim Goad, uh, I've, I've actually said the phrase before myself.
00:11:30.740
Um, but, uh, Jim Goad wrote a great piece, uh, called the new church ladies.
00:11:37.140
And, uh, you know, basically saying that the, you know, the, the people of the left are really
00:11:42.740
the, they're carrying on this kind of, you know, Protestant church lady tradition of, of like,
00:11:52.080
You know, like this, you know, outrage over words.
00:11:59.120
And he used that as a, you know, for his article, it was on thought catalog, I think is where
00:12:04.560
And, uh, you know, it's, it's a great, it really describes what's happening because these
00:12:10.800
are, these are prudes in a way, you know, they're, they're prudes there.
00:12:14.560
They, what they can't believe, they can't believe that everyone doesn't agree with them.
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Or they, someone has said something that is socially inappropriate is where really what,
00:12:26.620
that's what they're responding to, you know, like, uh, this is socially inappropriate.
00:12:32.100
And, uh, that's what the, I mean, that's what it all is.
00:12:35.460
And I've, I've thought about it and I was going to write an article about, uh, the difference
00:12:41.540
between being offended and being, uh, insulted.
00:12:45.160
And it actually became very complex, but one of the things I talked about as I was writing
00:12:51.480
it, I was thinking about the idea that in many ways, this is kind of a woman thing that,
00:12:57.860
uh, you know, this proving purity, because women have always, as I wrote in the article
00:13:01.860
for, uh, uh, Radix, um, women have always been put in a position where they had to prove
00:13:11.500
You know, this constant kind of chastity contest that women have, like, I am more morally
00:13:27.100
And, you know, by, by voicing their opinion, all these people who are doing yes, all women
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and all these hashtags and all these moral hashtags there, they're saying, I am more pure
00:13:36.240
than you there for, I'm morally superior to you and I can, I've now increased my value
00:13:45.220
They don't know what they're doing and they just, they're just being emotional and doing
00:13:48.580
But, uh, you know, I, I really feel strongly that that's what's happening is this, this
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kind of etiquette purity contest that people are having now.
00:13:57.000
And now the new purity is on the left or even whatever it is, the corporate progressive
00:14:05.000
You know, cause I don't even think it's a genuine left anymore.
00:14:07.380
I mean, it's just, you know, these kinds of social leftist causes, you know, they've
00:14:11.860
been sucked into the mainstream as a way of kind of making everybody interchangeable.
00:14:18.440
I think the left has collapsed maybe much more than the right.
00:14:22.660
Um, and, uh, cause you know, what we're seeing really, I think it's in a way better understood
00:14:27.320
as a, as some kind of weird new morality than, than thinking of it as like, this is what Stalin
00:14:48.780
I've actually had a progressive say that to me.
00:14:51.060
I've, I've had a progressive, a school teacher say, you know, that he thought I was wrong
00:14:55.460
because I was, you know, I thought that people were losing values and he's like, no, we're
00:15:03.640
And I'm like, yeah, like not values, but morals.
00:15:09.580
And, uh, I'm like, yeah, that's actually what's happening.
00:15:15.700
I mean, it's, it's one thing it's to speak a certain language.
00:15:18.540
It's a shibboleth, um, which I, I believe the, the origin of the word shibboleth is, um,
00:15:25.540
And it's, if you pronounce that word differently, that meant that you were of this other ethnic
00:15:33.540
But, uh, um, but, but now the new shibboleth is I speak the certain language and I, I, I
00:15:41.220
check off a couple of little boxes and that means that I am employable for one thing, you
00:15:46.880
know, as a man, like, uh, you know, Oh, you know, all women.
00:15:56.120
So it has a social kind of like competitive nature, but then I also, I think it would be
00:16:01.300
wrong to totally discount the fact that it's just a moral thing.
00:16:04.600
Like people almost would want to think it's a good in itself and, and also just that weird,
00:16:12.940
Um, you know, I mean the, the one, I mean this, this notion that like a word, like the
00:16:18.600
letters N I G G E R have like Matt and really spelled it.
00:16:26.820
I'm going to say it, but those, those words have such that, that, you know, all of language
00:16:33.220
I mean, remember we're just, we're throwing around little, uh, little sounds and, you know,
00:16:39.680
within a certain society and within a certain context and even within a certain tone of
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voice, they have meaning, but there's, there's no, there's no meaning to nigger.
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You know, it could, it, it's, it, it's just some thing.
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Some of them are contradictory or cunt, you know, I mean, great rapper, right.
00:17:11.260
I don't, uh, but you know, I mean, cunt has a history and it's actually, you know, interesting.
00:17:16.860
I was watching this funny video by this, uh, shrill professional atheist named Thunderfoot.
00:17:22.880
But, you know, cunt has a, cunt has a certain etymology.
00:17:27.380
It has a history and it actually has very different meanings in different contexts.
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In Australia, I did, I had actually never known this, but Australia, it's a term of endearment.
00:17:37.840
So it really, it's not, yeah, it's not real, but I think these people put all this magic
00:17:44.520
to it and it really is like an incantation or a spell and it keeps going.
00:17:49.280
So now no one in, in, you know, in a, and I would not, even I, I would, I'm not going
00:17:54.260
to go start using nigger and cunt around people because obviously they're like, wow,
00:18:00.820
So, I mean, it's, it's obvious everything's in context, but, uh, you know, the, this, there
00:18:06.260
was a recent, uh, attempt to ban the word bossy.
00:18:13.860
Like you, even though this is a perfectly fine word, uh, that can be used in all different
00:18:19.920
contexts, including patriarchal oppression, but also a myriad of other contexts.
00:18:29.360
Well, ban bossy was fantastic because it was bossy women telling you not to be bossy, telling
00:18:42.100
A friend of mine pointed that out and I'm like, that is beautiful.
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The other thing, I love the fact that Condoleezza Rice, like, so we're banning a perfectly fine
00:18:53.180
word, yet we're supposed to admire this horrible woman who was directly involved in the deaths
00:19:02.900
Like the, the wasting of a trillions of dollars, the violent, brutal death of more than a million
00:19:12.400
And yet we're supposed to be like offended by bossy.
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That's why people, that's why people want Putin to take us over, you know, America has
00:19:27.540
And, uh, you know, that's, that's the way it is.
00:19:29.940
One of the, one of the tweets I sent, I sent out when I was, you know, being, wasting time
00:19:33.640
was, uh, you know, uh, Angela Merkel and, uh, clearly Hillary Clinton are embarrassed
00:19:42.320
by yes, all women, you know, because they can't, uh, yes.
00:19:47.760
So there's something like the effect of like, because, you know, obviously, you know, they
00:19:52.340
had a hard time getting to be some of the most powerful women in the world because, you
00:19:55.960
know, men were checking them out and trying to rape them all the time.
00:19:59.940
You know, it's like somehow they've managed to overcome all this stuff to become these
00:20:04.760
amazingly powerful women, you know, but all these women are complaining that, you know,
00:20:14.120
I remember when I was a graduate student at the university of Chicago in about, it was
00:20:19.500
more than, it was about, you know, 2002 or 2003.
00:20:22.180
And I actually held a door open for Martha Nussbaum.
00:20:34.380
She used to be married to Cass Sudstein, um, who's this, uh, big Obama figure.
00:20:41.240
And he seems to actually be this kind of alpha male who trades out, uh, various, uh, leftist
00:20:49.780
icons and then dumps them once their ovaries shrivel or something.
00:20:53.540
So he, he was marrying this philosopher, quote unquote, Martha Nussbaum.
00:20:58.000
And then he dumped her for, uh, Samantha Power, the, uh, horrible, uh, like humanitarian
00:21:07.740
Anyway, I remember opening a door for Martha Nussbaum and then she was like, and she opened
00:21:18.060
It was a Mexican, a feminist standoff of door opening.
00:21:35.420
So do you think, um, do you think Elliot Rogers is kind of the, uh, the Anders Breivik
00:21:45.820
Uh, you know, I, I can, well, I can assure you is that no one will remember him two weeks
00:21:51.600
Uh, you know, like, and that's, that's the thing with these, these shooters.
00:21:55.240
I mean, I know that there were a bunch of people online.
00:21:57.440
It was actually fairly grotesque and whorish in the way that, uh, a bunch of feminists
00:22:02.840
kind of jumped on that and, uh, wanted to make his murdering of more women than men.
00:22:08.900
I mean, sorry, more men than women into, uh, into something that was about misogyny.
00:22:14.800
I mean, obviously, you know, he was, he was just a poor kid that, well, he's a rich kid
00:22:19.960
actually, but the, you know, they couldn't get laid and, uh, you know, and it had to
00:22:23.780
be about white privilege, even though he was half Asian and all these, you know, it was
00:22:28.160
so nakedly grotesque in the way that they, they tried to fit this into their narrative
00:22:32.420
and, and, uh, it, it's, it just makes them look trashy in my, in my point of view, but
00:22:39.500
at the same time, I mean, these shooters, I mean, I think we're just, we have whatever
00:22:45.180
300, is it 300 or 350 million people in America?
00:22:51.900
And, uh, and you know, the fact that more of us don't kill each other on a regular basis
00:22:58.980
is actually pretty amazing, you know, the fact that, I mean, I, a lot of people have
00:23:03.980
thought about shooting or strangling or whatever, their coworkers or the people who screwed them
00:23:14.220
This is what Shakespearean drama, this is what the epics, this is what everything is about.
00:23:17.720
Like the, this person screwed me over, therefore I want to kill them.
00:23:25.500
The fact that some, every once in a while with millions and millions and millions of
00:23:30.560
people, somebody does, you know, it's just amazing to me that more people don't do it.
00:23:40.180
They won't tell us, you know, but I mean, you know, every so often they go on sword killing
00:23:44.220
and knife killing sprees or wherever, but, uh, you know, we, you know, it's going to keep
00:23:50.000
It's going to happen at once every three months.
00:23:54.260
And, uh, for me to care about it or get outraged or get upset or even find it notable, you
00:24:00.880
know, as we, you know, as we started this thing, how many, how many people died while
00:24:11.060
I was joking, but literally people died because of that.
00:24:16.600
More people died texting that day, you know, possibly all is texting the hashtag, yes, all
00:24:22.380
women, but absolutely died while texting in America that actually happened.
00:24:27.800
I mean, you, more people died while texting than were shot by this guy.
00:24:31.940
And, um, you know, the level of outrage is completely disproportionate to what's happening.
00:24:37.360
It's like, do we change society so that you let's, let's change the when may change the
00:24:44.280
way that all men think everywhere so that maybe one less shooter happens a year, you know,
00:24:53.140
You know, but we have to change everything because these statistically insignificant shooters,
00:25:01.640
you know, are, are, you know, you know, it's sad.
00:25:05.980
It would be sad if your family got caught in the crossfire of one of these shooters.
00:25:11.260
You know, I mean, people want to blame somebody and that's what, you know, that's human nature,
00:25:16.620
but I, I, I just feel like they're, the media needs something to talk about.
00:25:25.700
Well, I think it was the Joker in, uh, in, in the dark night who said that, you know,
00:25:30.920
when people, when 30,000 people die a year in a car accident or soldiers die in war, it makes
00:25:37.120
the back page, but if, you know, the Joker does one of his stunts and he introduces chaos
00:25:44.980
It, you know, it, it, it kind of, in, in some ways what, what we actually accept in daily
00:25:51.160
life is so much more appalling and, and crazy than, than one, the fact that one person clearly
00:26:01.760
I mean, these guys are the jokers, you know, like, uh, yeah, like that's a good way to
00:26:06.880
You know, they're just these kind of random things that pop up and.
00:26:11.680
And so theatrical people, you know, this kind of self, uh, uh, I don't know how to, if it's
00:26:19.060
the right word, like self theatricalizing a person.
00:26:22.300
If you listen to Elliot Rogers, um, video or, or looked at his manifesto of sorts, it's
00:26:29.460
this person who took his life very seriously and he was, I mean, this is why I kind of,
00:26:36.100
um, I was reading like, uh, I was, I still call him Rossi, but, um, uh, I guess he now
00:26:46.900
Vigilant citizen, not Vigilant citizen, that's another guy, Citizen Renegade or some.
00:26:52.700
Uh, but yeah, I mean, I, I kind of, I mean, it's, it's hard for me to disagree with anything
00:26:58.760
he says in the sense of this is a, he, this is a failure as a human being and so on and
00:27:03.420
Um, there might've been a kind of homoerotic content to the fact that he stabbed men and
00:27:10.100
You know, I kind of saw that peripherally and I thought maybe he was a little reaching a
00:27:16.780
I mean, I tried to not get too Freudian with, you know, that kind of stuff.
00:27:20.520
Let's not, let's not make everything about a weird sexual perversion.
00:27:24.180
Sometimes a violent stabbing is just a violent stabbing.
00:27:30.060
Sometimes you just really hate that guy, you know?
00:27:34.020
I mean, we don't, I mean, possibly, I mean, the thing is, I mean, everybody was like, oh,
00:27:40.780
I mean, he, I mean, he was half Asian, so he's, he's got a more gender neutral face.
00:27:46.580
I don't know if he was actually, you know, if in that world or by those standards, that
00:27:54.040
I mean, but it's easy for us to look at him and be like, oh, well, he has a, you know,
00:28:00.400
He did, he did from, at least from my eyes, have a kind of feminine persona, but, but
00:28:05.100
anyway, I don't think that's in a way overly meaningful.
00:28:08.100
I mean, I, again, I, I have this, I, I, God, I don't want to say I sympathize with him
00:28:13.100
because not only have I just used the N and C words, but I'm saying this, but I, I kind
00:28:20.780
But yeah, I, I, I, in some ways I have a certain bit of sympathy.
00:28:26.740
I mean, needless to say, you know, random killing is, uh, uh, something that I reject,
00:28:35.800
But, um, you know, it's, and in some ways these people that take themselves so seriously,
00:28:40.500
they probably had, they, he probably did have a kind of Asperger's type, uh, you know,
00:28:45.460
autistic, uh, you know, some kind of odd on the autism spectrum of some way.
00:28:49.540
Um, but it's, it's these types of people who, if they're able to sublimate a lot of
00:28:54.620
these horrible desires they have, uh, they, you know, make crazy movies or write novels
00:29:04.160
It really is these types who I think are almost, um, they can, they're in, in, in,
00:29:11.500
including if they can channel that resentment that they have, they can actually,
00:29:17.200
And I, I don't think they're actually, I mean, I think in a way mental illness, you
00:29:21.920
know, I, mental illness probably had a, an, a positive evolutionary, uh, uh, aspect to
00:29:28.100
it in the sense that, you know, you almost need some crazy psychopath if you're at war
00:29:34.780
or you, you need, in order to create great art or to, to kind of think outside the box,
00:29:39.820
you almost need someone who, who is quote unquote mentally ill.
00:29:45.460
Uh, because they, they, they serve a purpose in society and, you know, I mean, I'm, at some
00:29:53.740
I mean, he was, you know, live, you know, living in filth and had a, a, uh, bedpan underneath
00:30:00.700
the piano where he was, you know, did it when I walked to the, you know, these types of
00:30:16.640
I, I, I think it's, it's, it's also, it's to, to kind of just see this as some, this is
00:30:22.080
a acting out of male patriarchy is totally ridiculous.
00:30:27.220
But I think it's also in a way kind of like demeaning these types of people who, who we
00:30:33.080
should try to kind of understand and, and try to actually have sympathy for of, you know,
00:30:38.120
we, you're, you're, you could be the type that thinks outside the box and does something
00:30:43.900
Um, or you could be the type who shoots a bunch of people, but we're going to take that
00:30:49.400
Well, if I may make a bad pun, um, you know, the only difference between, uh, this guy and,
00:31:00.620
You know, I mean, it's, it's, are you making a great artistic impact?
00:31:04.200
Are you doing this amazing thing when you kill people?
00:31:07.420
I mean, it's, there's so many ways you can go with that.
00:31:10.400
And yeah, I mean, like the things that make, the things that make people weird or all those
00:31:15.140
sorts of things that make them great and think outside the box, like you were saying.
00:31:18.880
And, and, and well, when, when you talk about mental illness, everyone wants to say, oh,
00:31:27.720
Oh, he shouldn't have been allowed to get this or that.
00:31:32.760
And, you know, that's, there's such a danger in that as well, because then you're
00:31:37.260
talking about what is the definition of crazy and, uh, you know, what is it, what
00:31:42.860
And that's so politicized and it's so controlled by a very specific group of people that, that
00:31:51.040
At least we don't really want to give more power.
00:31:53.600
I mean, uh, we're talking about basically democratic women, you know, democratic, reliably
00:32:03.160
democrat women are the bulk of the psychology profession.
00:32:09.040
You know that, I mean, it's statistically, it's a fact it's most of those people who are
00:32:13.120
involved in that are progressively minded women.
00:32:16.640
So if you're going to let them decide who is crazy, it's going to be everyone doesn't
00:32:26.120
And that's what's happened, you know, over time, you know, I mean, that's why we can
00:32:29.820
You can, I mean, obviously, you know, you're insane.
00:32:35.060
By their definitions, they can come up with a label for each of us that is clinically, that
00:32:42.120
And, uh, that's the danger of everyone wants to be like, oh, well, you know, we should,
00:32:50.040
Well, the people who are making the decisions about what mental illness is and what isn't
00:32:58.600
What is that list of, it's a big book that where they list essentially psychological
00:33:11.140
Yes, I would not be surprised if, if racism is not already in there, it will be.
00:33:16.840
It is the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders.
00:33:26.300
I mean, as you can see, I mean, they stigmatize that in language anyway.
00:33:31.020
And what we think is mentally ill, I mean, what we think is mentally ill is actually, it
00:33:35.900
Like, you could write a fascinating history about what is mental illness.
00:33:39.500
I mean, the one that jumps out just because this is what, you know, is, has become the
00:33:44.440
political cause celeb of the past five years is homosexuality in the sense that that once
00:33:55.280
Let's do, you know, let's, uh, free them or save them or something.
00:33:59.480
And then, you know, you can't conceivably say that now, but you, you almost need a, there
00:34:06.040
So at one point, racism was like, oh yeah, well that's, that's a sign of sanity.
00:34:16.220
Uh, but you know, things have flipped and, you know, I guess this gets back to, I think
00:34:21.160
what's probably the theme of this conversation, uh, is, is this morality that the, this moral,
00:34:28.860
uh, this moral imperative, which is, is, is really deeply human and which we need.
00:34:34.940
And, you know, it's, it's wrong to say that we've, we're no longer moralist or morality
00:34:41.440
doesn't play a part in our lives just because, uh, a certain Christian morality has waned.
00:34:47.780
And, and clearly it has, um, but you know, we've become hyper puritanical in other ways.
00:34:55.400
And, uh, and maybe, maybe we can't ever get away from that.
00:34:58.600
I mean, maybe humans, that's just a real deep human need.
00:35:02.560
I never finished that, that piece that I was writing on, on being offended because it comes
00:35:06.560
down to social shaming and social shaming is how groups of people control each other.
00:35:11.400
And I mean, and that's, it happens in every society, whether you like the idea of the
00:35:17.920
society or not, you know, it happens in a group of men, every group of men has social
00:35:23.160
Masculinity is a product to a certain extent of social shaming.
00:35:27.700
So then you do something that maybe otherwise, uh, because you don't want to be shamed by the
00:35:33.000
I mean, that's, that's a normal part of masculinity and the same thing with anything that we could
00:35:39.280
You know, we're, we all shaming each other for different reasons.
00:35:41.820
Like, uh, it's just the, it's just a question of what kind of society we want to live in,
00:35:46.760
but we're going to shame each other either way.
00:35:48.900
So, I mean, I couldn't come, I couldn't make it, make social shaming bad because I, you
00:35:54.600
know, it's, it's good for a certain kind of society.
00:35:57.360
You know, it's just what, it's just, we're, you know, the only reason we're responding to
00:36:02.040
it because we think what they're shaming people about is ridiculous, you know, but, uh,
00:36:08.940
And that's why, you know, it's in many ways, it's, you know, important for us to think of
00:36:12.840
ourselves as, you know, part of something else and not part of their world.
00:36:17.820
No, I, I, I, I think we might also be getting at a theme that Alex Krutigich has talked about,
00:36:27.740
And, um, a lot of people, I, you know, he, he mentioned this at a, he's mentioned this
00:36:37.580
Um, but I, I think, I think he actually is right about this.
00:36:41.160
Um, I, you know, one of our chief tasks is to create a new morality.
00:36:55.080
I mean, that's part of, that's part of being human.
00:36:57.660
And it's just, it's just, you know, what we're shaming them for is the question.
00:37:02.700
And it just comes back to, it's, it's, it's all philosophy at that point.
00:37:09.120
And, uh, we shame them, you know, to the opposite of that.
00:37:13.900
And it's the philosopher's role to, in a, in a way to come up with justifications for social
00:37:28.540
Let's come up with good reasons why we hate this person.
00:37:36.220
It was revealed to me upon stones in the desert by whatever.
00:37:44.020
Well, Jack, on that note, let's put a bookmark in it.
00:37:54.180
I think that that's a good place for a bookmark.
00:37:56.120
This podcast itself will become a sacred test, a text in time.
00:38:01.060
In many years, people will speak of it in, in hushed tones.