RadixJournal - The Importance of Being Earnest

00:00:00.000 John, Romain, welcome back.

00:00:28.960 How are you?

00:00:30.000 Good.

00:00:31.000 Quite good.

00:00:32.000 Good.

00:00:33.000 Romain, how is Christmas in Paris going?

00:00:37.000 Actually, I'm glad you're up for a new Jean du Jardin session.

00:00:44.940 Christmas is actually, you know, you must have a lot of snow in whitefish, but here it's

00:00:49.720 raining every day, so it's a rather disappointing Christmas time.

00:00:53.960 Oh, that is a little sad.

00:00:56.960 Yeah.

00:00:57.960 But I will be moving out from here in a few days to really celebrate Christmas in my

00:01:03.960 family.

00:01:04.960 Uh-huh.

00:01:05.960 Uh-huh.

00:01:06.960 100 kilometers, sorry, metric system from here and maybe the climate will be drier,

00:01:13.960 I may say.

00:01:15.960 That's very good.

00:01:16.960 I think the last time the three of us were on a podcast was almost exactly a year ago

00:01:22.960 and we talked about The Shining.

00:01:24.960 Exactly.

00:01:25.960 Yeah.

00:01:26.960 It was on December 19th and actually if you hadn't had a good news yesterday, it would

00:01:33.960 have been the same day, but now it's the very same day one year from now.

00:01:38.960 No.

00:01:39.960 Yes.

00:01:40.960 Well, with Kubrick, there are no coincidences.

00:01:41.960 I mean, this is some, we're looking at ourselves in the mirror or something like that.

00:01:47.960 But both times, this weather was very similar and we're near the solstice, so for me out

00:01:53.960 here in the Pacific Northwest, it's getting dark like at four or five and it's snowed over,

00:01:58.960 there's powder.

00:01:59.960 Yeah, it's very Kubrickian landscape, fitting for The Shining.

00:02:04.960 And pagan at the same time.

00:02:06.960 Yeah, very pagan.

00:02:07.960 Yeah, Christmas, the most pagan of holidays.

00:02:09.960 But let's get to the next film.

00:02:14.960 We've all agreed before we leave this earth, we're going to have to do a podcast on every

00:02:21.960 Kubrick film.

00:02:22.960 Yes.

00:02:23.960 But today we're going to do one of those and that's Barry Lyndon.

00:02:28.960 And it's a film I saw, just speaking personally, it's a film I first saw about 12 or 15 years

00:02:38.960 ago.

00:02:39.960 And I remember thinking, I was obviously, despite the fact that I saw it on VHS, I was very

00:02:45.960 impressed by the visuals.

00:02:47.960 And it was probably, you know, it was probably the most, it is probably the most beautiful

00:02:54.960 film out there.

00:02:55.960 It's hard to imagine others that equal it in terms of care for detail and just Kubrick's

00:03:04.960 photographic vision.

00:03:05.960 I mean, it's really unparalleled.

00:03:07.960 But I didn't, it's, you know, Barry Lyndon is one of those films that it's kind of like

00:03:12.960 Kubrick's forgotten movie in a way.

00:03:15.960 I mean, not that it's not highly regarded, but I think people gravitate towards the shock

00:03:21.960 and awe of Clockwork Orange or obviously 2001 or, you know, maybe some of the later things

00:03:31.960 like Eyes Wide Shut or Full Metal Jacket.

00:03:33.960 But I think Barry Lyndon, it doesn't have the, and The Shining of course, Barry Lyndon doesn't

00:03:38.960 have that, you know, je ne sais quoi about it.

00:03:42.960 That everyone wants to talk about it and reinterpret it and so on and so forth.

00:03:47.960 But I think it might really be one of Kubrick's best works.

00:03:51.960 I mean, not just technically as an artist, but also just in his layering of different meanings

00:03:58.960 and different kind of ironical qualities.

00:04:01.960 But let's just try to get in it in this way.

00:04:06.960 I think we should get in it purely through the aesthetic of the film.

00:04:10.960 And as many have noted before me, Barry Lyndon is to a degree a kind of moving painting.

00:04:19.960 And he had, there's some very clear parallels with them.

00:04:26.960 Whenever I watch it and some of these scenes, they almost seem to evoke a Hogarth painting

00:04:32.960 or Velazquez painting or some lands, famous landscapes from that time.

00:04:37.960 And, but it's all on cinema. So it's in a way alive and moving, but then in another way,

00:04:43.960 it's very static and it has a really surreal quality to it.

00:04:47.960 But I guess the one more thing I'll mention and then I'll pass it off to Romain and John.

00:04:55.960 But there's an aspect to Barry Lyndon that this is his journey into the past.

00:05:02.960 And he almost has to get there through our aesthetic vision of this era,

00:05:08.960 which comes to us through paintings and also through novels.

00:05:13.960 But I think more poignantly through oil painting.

00:05:17.960 And just like 2001 is Kubrick's journey into the far reaches of the future.

00:05:25.960 You know, this post-human, post-earth future.

00:05:30.960 It's almost like Barry Lyndon is an equally long journey.

00:05:35.960 And it's this journey to the depths of the past.

00:05:38.960 And, you know, it's, it's very interesting just when I was reading about this film.

00:05:43.960 Kubrick actually, to do the actual filming,

00:05:48.960 Kubrick actually cobbled together these cameras that are truly unique

00:05:53.960 and they're of his own design.

00:05:55.960 And they, they involve an older camera itself.

00:05:58.960 And, and then also he, he attached to it the, the latest technology at the time,

00:06:04.960 which was a, a lens made by the very famous lens maker from Switzerland, Zeiss.

00:06:11.960 But it was actually made for, for NASA.

00:06:13.960 It was made for satellites and things like that.

00:06:17.960 It was almost like he was using space age technology in order to finally be able to film the 18th century.

00:06:24.960 And what it creates is a, it made it, it made it, it gave Kubrick the ability to actually capture candlelight.

00:06:32.960 And so that you didn't need all of this artificial light on people where, where it really creates a kind of synthetic world.

00:06:39.960 And you can, you know, you can put a, you can create a scene just as you, just perfect.

00:06:45.960 And what, and instead what he does is he actually films candlelight.

00:06:48.960 And it, it gives the scene a more, obviously more authentic to, to the period,

00:06:53.960 but also almost kind of spontaneous quality, if that's the right word.

00:06:58.960 Like you don't, you, you can't, it's not a synthetic quality you create in a studio.

00:07:03.960 It's, it's something that that's real and it's different.

00:07:06.960 And it also creates this, this kind of lens that can capture that light is also this incredibly narrow depth of field or shallow depth of field rather.

00:07:16.960 And so it, it, again, it gives the quality of this almost two dimensional quality that you're really looking at a painting when there's this, you know, focus on the foreground and the background becomes a, a blur.

00:07:29.960 It's, it's, it's, it's just an amazing kind of surreal kind of dreamlike effect.

00:07:34.960 And, you know, again, I, I just, I, I don't, I don't know if any other director would take the care to do that, to, to not just make a costume drama.

00:07:44.960 You know, that's obviously been done before.

00:07:47.960 But to almost, to think about, we need to use a new technology in order to, to see into the past.

00:07:54.960 You know, just like we can use a telescope to see to the stars, we need this new lens in order to see back into the 18th century.

00:08:01.960 It's just something that I, I find, you know, anyway, just thinking about it is, is, is pretty amazing.

00:08:07.960 But, but let's just start here.

00:08:09.960 Let's just start with the aesthetics and, and, and John, I'll just pass the, pass it to you first.

00:08:15.960 What, what is your take on all this?

00:08:17.960 Just the, the, the aesthetic world that Kubrick creates with Barry Lyndon.

00:08:22.960 Well, I think all of his films have this very strong aesthetic quality.

00:08:27.960 I mean, you know, he was, he's began as a photographer and he sort of carries over this sense, I think, into film because, you know, he puts such care into shot composition.

00:08:40.960 Uh, I mean, a lot of his, I mean, this one is the most like a painting, although, you know, all of his films are beautiful.

00:08:48.960 Uh, you know, as for what you said about technology, I think that's a good point.

00:08:52.960 I remember Kubrick in an interview made a famous comment that if it, if it can be written, it can be filmed.

00:08:59.960 Uh, and I, I thought that, I think that he believed that, you know, through the medium of film, you could, you could access almost anything, you know, any element of the human experience.

00:09:09.960 Uh, another element for me, as far as the aesthetics go is that this is really, uh, the closest Kubrick ever came to his dream project, uh, which was, you know, his Napoleon film.

00:09:21.960 Oh yeah.

00:09:23.960 Which he had actually attempted to do after clockwork orange.

00:09:26.960 And I don't remember all the details, but there was a strike in England in the film industry or something, and he wasn't actually able to do it, but you can kind of see that, you know, I mean, it's, it's obviously a little bit earlier in time, but you know, there is, you know, especially in the war scenes, there's a little bit of a Napoleonic quality, uh, to the way he films them.

00:09:47.960 Uh, so I think there's a little bit of that.

00:09:50.960 Uh, but as far as the aesthetic being like a painting, I, I absolutely agree with that.

00:09:56.960 Uh, although I, I sometimes see it like in 2001, how, you know, Kubrick portrays technology in this really, you know, kind of Faustian incredible heroic way, you know, at the same time, he also kind of undermines it by showing how it's dehumanizing.

00:10:12.960 Yeah.

00:10:13.960 And I, I see that in Barry Lyndon as well, because in so many shots, he'll, he'll sort of zoom in on a human figure and then the camera sort of slowly pulls back.

00:10:24.960 And you see that the, whichever character it is is sort of, you know, at the center of this, you know, beautiful painting like, uh, vision.

00:10:33.960 Uh, and you know, while it is beautiful at the same time, it occurred to me, I feel like Kubrick is almost showing the person is being trapped.

00:10:41.960 In that they're, they're almost reduced to, you know, part of the scenery, which I, I, I think relates to the theme of the film, which is that, you know, there's, there's, you know, if you want to get into high society at this time, you know, you have to kind of, you know, surrender your freedom and submit yourself to all these.

00:11:00.960 All these, you know, different, uh, you know, mores and ways of doing things.

00:11:05.960 And, you know, that in a way it is kind of dehumanizing.

00:11:08.960 And I kind of see that reflected in the aesthetic, uh, also in the battle scenes, uh, you know, that, that very bizarre scene where they're, they're attacking the French position.

00:11:20.520 And, you know, even though I know that, you know, this is the way wars were actually fought at that time, you know, it's almost surreal the way, you know, the, the British troops just walk steadfastly into the French fire and they sort of fall like bowling pins without even making a sound.

00:11:36.160 And there's this sense that they're like, you know, being, you know, on this conveyor belt, almost, you know, being delivered for slaughter, which, which also I think relates to the, the duel, uh, especially the last one where you sort of have to stand there absolutely still while somebody else, you know, shoots at you from a, from a few feet away.

00:11:56.820 So you can receive his fire, which is a euphemism for being shot.

00:12:01.620 Well, I know Kubrick did a huge amount of research into the way duels were fought and apparently they went through fashions just like everything else in Europe.

00:12:11.240 And, uh, like the way he depicts the three duels in the films is supposed to be, you know, very accurate, but yeah, I can't imagine like, yeah, stand and receive your enemy's fire.

00:12:21.480 That would be right.

00:12:23.440 Well, I, I think just to jump in and then I'll, I'll pass it to Romain, but I, I think with everything with Kubrick, there, there's a, there are all these layers of irony and, you know, and, and you can see this in these things where, you know, like Full Metal Jacket is both an anti-war film and a pro-war film, uh, to be frank, all at the same time.

00:12:43.980 And I will, we'll get to that, but I think you can see this here with Barry Lyndon and also, uh, you know, technology is both dehumanizing and humanizing at the same time.

00:12:52.320 And it's kind of interesting in 2001, I mean, how, you know, gains consciousness and becomes a kind of character, uh, you know, much more so than Bowman who becomes, who's a kind of 1950s company man who has no emotions or history or thoughts or feelings or philosophy.

00:13:09.640 And so Hal's the only character. And even at the end when he's being, when he's dying, he's being killed, he becomes a kind of child and sings a song in this like deeply human, human way.

00:13:21.140 Uh, so I, I, I think with, with everything, I, I don't disagree with what you said. I think technology is dehumanizing, you know, in Kubrick and in, in the real world.

00:13:28.820 But, but I think with, with Kubrick, it's, it's, there are all these layers. And even with these things like the, um, you know, the British marching in, in that skirmish, just marching into the fire of the French soldiers or standing and receiving fire.

00:13:43.720 I mean, to a degree, you know, part of us wants to look at that and be like, oh, this is insane. You know, what are you doing? You're, you're, you're allowing formality. You're just dying for formality sake or something. You're, you're being, you're an idiot.

00:13:55.920 But on another level, there's something really deeply heroic and courageous about challenging someone to a duel and facing death and being willing to put your honor over, over your life and, and, and receiving, you know, marching into a, uh, marching into an opposing force. 1.00

00:14:18.680 I mean, we're reminded of people in the 20th and 21st century of, you know, the laptop bombardiers. Uh, I think it was Alex Coburn might've coined that phrase, but those, you know, who, who are on their little laptop and they, they're, oh yeah, let's send a drone over to Pakistan and blow up someone we think is a terrorist. Yeah, that's great.

00:14:37.040 You never get your hands dirty, but you know, in the 18th century to, to march forthrightly into your enemy's fire. There, there's something profoundly heroic and deeply human about it. Um, you know, all the same. I, I, I think Kubrick is getting, I mean, this is one thing I say a lot. I mean, Kubrick is getting at that.

00:14:56.460 He's getting at these layers of, of, of irony and, and, and, and different layers to something where something could be kind of anti-war and pro-war at the same time. It could be, you know, Barry Lyndon's an anti-hero and a hero, I would say, all at the same time. But anyway, I've, I've talked too much. Let me, um, Romain, why don't you, uh, why don't you jump in on anything that you find interesting about what we've just talked about?

00:15:18.360 Well, um, like you, Richard, I, I saw it, uh, quite lately in my, in my life. I, I, I think I was something like 20 or 22. And, uh, a few years ago, I, I rewatched it and I, I discussed it with, with friends. And one of them said that, uh, Barry Lyndon was celebrating old Europe, which of course is a concern for us.

00:15:46.040 Um, and I, I, I, of course I disagreed, but, uh, it bears discussion. You, you can't, you know, just brush it aside and, you know, it's, uh, on an aesthetic level because it's what you were talking about before. It's, you have this refinement that is celebrated, obviously. And, and you have it, you know, all senses are solicited.

00:16:14.080 It's not only, uh, the images that are beautiful, but the way people speak, uh, you know, you, you can, you can imagine the flavors of their meals or, uh, you know, uh, the fragrances of, uh, you know, the ladies perfume and everything is, uh, refined and beautiful.

00:16:35.980 And, and, and, you know, on the surface, uh, it's really a kind of longing of, you know, a bygone era when the elite was, uh, you know, had a kind of class and, you know, uh, was really deserved.

00:16:55.060 And, uh, when you compare it to Bush or Sarkozy, it's, you don't have the same feeling, obviously. But, um, you know, I, I suggested the, the title for the podcast. Something is rotten in the state of Berlin.

00:17:09.620 It could be England's reference, of course, to Hamlet and Denmark. And because if you scratch the surface, you find much more unpleasant things about, uh, Europe at the time about aristocracy, of course.

00:17:25.320 And it's no wonder then that the, the society where, um, you know, it's, the scene takes place. Uh, so, um, it begins during the seven years war. So, uh, which began in 1756 and it's, it ends just when the French revolution has started.

00:17:47.680 Yeah. Um, and, or, or just before it starts. And during that, there is the American independence war. So it's exactly the time when, uh, the European aristocracy was collapsing and still you have this magnificence and even bravery in Jews or war or other situations where people defend their honor.

00:18:12.800 But all this, uh, you know, this refinement is, is just concealing the fact that, uh, society is, uh, maybe reverting to a more brutal stage.

00:18:30.060 It would be an interpretation, but another one would be that simply, uh, the ruling class is no longer legitimate because it doesn't fight because it's, it has become effeminate.

00:18:41.560 And, and, and that people like Berlin are just, you know, foreshadowing the, you know, later triumph of the bourgeoisie. So, you know, we have many things to discuss here, but I don't think it celebrates European aristocracy, but rather that it, you know, say that beneath this veneer, you have, you know, um, violence and, and all this refinement is just,

00:19:11.560 it's just a kind of hypocrisy.

00:19:14.100 That basically were all the apes from 2001.

00:19:18.100 Sort of the implication.

00:19:20.540 Yeah, no, I, I, when, when you said that, I was actually imagining, um, Barry Lyndon punching Lord Bullington almost in, in an ape length fashion where he's slamming the skull with his, uh, with the, the, I, with the, um, the bone.

00:19:34.660 I, I, I think, uh, uh, Kubrick is one who would probably reference some earlier films and almost create this universe, you know, where things kind of have their own logic.

00:19:45.600 Yeah, no, I, I agree.

00:19:46.580 I mean, I was, when, when you were saying that, I was, I was thinking of one of the speeches by Lord Windover, and, um, if that's his right name.

00:19:54.440 But it's, it's basically someone who's this stuffy, pompous, uh, person who, um, whom Barry goes to once he decides that he wants to have a peerage.

00:20:04.620 And he wants to basically secure his fortune with a title.

00:20:07.980 The best.

00:20:08.560 Yeah.

00:20:08.780 The best people.

00:20:11.200 And he goes, not the most virtuous, but not the least virtuous either. 0.99

00:20:15.100 Not the most intelligent, but not the most stupid. 1.00

00:20:17.560 And he, I think basically when he says the best people, you should substitute the most useless assholes imaginable. 0.99

00:20:25.060 Like, I mean, and I think I, I say that, you know, with tongue in cheek, but I think that really is what Kubrick is saying. 0.99

00:20:30.360 Because all of those people are, are just lifeless stuffed shirts.

00:20:34.640 I mean, there, there was, there's another scene with Lord Windover.

00:20:37.200 I think it comes right before then.

00:20:38.720 And he's telling some, you know, frivolous joke.

00:20:41.680 And he's, and, and again, with, with Kubrick, there's never a coincidence.

00:20:45.960 There's nothing's filler.

00:20:47.280 You know, the Hollywood movie, they might say, oh, we need a little comic relief in here.

00:20:50.820 Let's create some funny character who says a joke.

00:20:53.920 No, no, no, no.

00:20:54.660 Not with everything in Kubrick is like part of the story.

00:20:58.140 And there's a point where, uh, Windover tells a joke and he says, oh, a man came up behind me.

00:21:03.160 And they said, oh, is Lord Windover still alive?

00:21:05.680 And I said, oh, well, I, I was so distressed.

00:21:08.640 I didn't know how to answer him.

00:21:09.520 I said, no, he's dead.

00:21:10.960 And they started laughing.

00:21:12.420 But that, that's, that's what Kubrick is saying.

00:21:14.920 Like these people are dead.

00:21:17.120 But they don't know it yet.

00:21:18.480 They just don't know it yet.

00:21:20.980 And they just need to get their heads separated from their bodies, which didn't happen in England, actually.

00:21:26.800 But yeah, I've spoken like a true Frenchman.

00:21:28.480 Yeah, no, it's, uh, and, and, you know, I was thinking about that, that scene of, in terms of like violence and formality in the aristocrats, um, where there's, there are these parallel scenes in, in, in Barry Lyndon.

00:21:44.060 I mean, one of them is the fight that he has with Mr. Tool, who's a, is a kind of big buffoon kind of guy.

00:21:50.280 But it, but it, even there, it's formalized, you know, they're, they're in a ring.

00:21:53.800 It's a very important scene.

00:21:55.240 And actually, I, I've tried to, you know, bring my friends, my best friends to consider it.

00:22:04.460 But, you know, I interpreted it, uh, when I saw it first, maybe it was just after philosophy class.

00:22:11.480 But, you know, this Hegel theme, um, about the master versus slave diurectic, because, uh, you can't, you know, help imagining what happens to the red-birded guy.

00:22:25.580 So, Tool, O'Toole, or Tool?

00:22:27.860 Mr. Tool, yeah, Tool.

00:22:30.180 Which is, again, that, that last name is clearly not a coincidence.

00:22:33.680 Yeah, and because if Barry Lyndon is, you know, uh, vanquished by this guy, he will be humiliated and you can't help, you know, uh, just before they were fighting, uh, you know, except one friend who was advising him, you know, to respond, um, all the other soldiers were laughing at him.

00:22:57.920 And then he, he becomes their hero.

00:23:00.380 Yeah.

00:23:00.460 So, you can just imagine that Tool becomes, you know, kind of underdog of the troop or something like that.

00:23:08.880 And it's really because Barry Lyndon is more, is more fit to fight, but it's also because he, he doesn't want to become the slave of the troop.

00:23:17.940 And, you know, it's, maybe I, I over, over, interpret.

00:23:22.540 No, he's, he's willing to risk death.

00:23:24.660 And, and, you know, and again, to go back, um, uh, we can circle back around to what I was talking about with the aristocrats, but, um, but I think we're, you know, again, all these themes are kind of interwoven, so it's, it's proper to talk about them at the same time.

00:23:37.580 But, yeah, I mean, Barry, uh, despite the fact that he is kind of an anti-hero, despite the fact that you're, you're not really supposed to look on him as, as a virtuous, admirable person, uh, nevertheless, uh, Barry, you know, as this kind of a country Irish upstart, there, there's a lot about him that, that really is truly heroic.

00:24:01.320 And, you know, with, um, when you, he is, and one of those aspects is that he is willing to face death.

00:24:07.480 He's willing to look it in the face and risk his life in order to maintain his honor.

00:24:12.020 And he does, he does that with Mr. Tool, but, you know, that guy, I mean, who wants to get in a fight with a guy who's, you know, 300 pounds and 6'5".

00:24:18.780 I mean, it's, you know, it's not, it's pretty intimidating.

00:24:21.420 And, but he's, he's willing to do it.

00:24:23.260 And with Captain Quinn.

00:24:24.580 Yeah, with Captain Quinn in the very first duel, you know, you have all these Irish people who are kind of, um, you know, 1.00

00:24:31.320 you know, you know, kind of wily, they are kind of hobbits, but they're also kind of, kind of wily little, uh, grasping hobbits, uh, where they're kind of like, Oh, Captain Quinn, let's marry off our sister.

00:24:45.520 And then Captain Quinn can pay off our mortgage.

00:24:48.800 Basically what they're, you know, we'll get 1500 a year.

00:24:51.800 That's he's, I think at one point he said he is 1500 a year.

00:24:55.380 So it's like this equation of this man with getting money.

00:25:00.100 Actually, Captain Quinn often reminds them that.

00:25:03.320 Oh yeah.

00:25:03.840 Captain Quinn has been in.

00:25:04.760 You know, I'm a man of property.

00:25:07.020 When he says that with, the actor is really good because, uh, he couldn't ridiculize the English army better than that.

00:25:16.440 Yeah.

00:25:16.600 He's a farcical.

00:25:17.580 Yeah.

00:25:18.740 And, uh, actually he, he becomes, he's only defined by what he, he owns.

00:25:24.480 It's, it's, it's interesting.

00:25:26.020 Yeah.

00:25:26.820 And, but Barry in a way kind of breaks that up because he, he, you know, Barry, you know, Nora is really not a wonderful woman at all. 0.99

00:25:35.560 She's, she's a little bit of a slut. 1.00

00:25:38.160 She been flinging herself at every man in these parts these five years past. 1.00

00:25:42.800 The manosphere would say that she's a six. 1.00

00:25:45.820 You're right.

00:25:46.440 At the very, at most, a six.

00:25:49.320 Yeah.

00:25:49.820 But Barry, uh, you know, white knight that he is.

00:25:52.800 No, we won't get into this.

00:25:54.380 But he, he has a low notch count at that time.

00:25:57.100 So that's why he's, he's okay to.

00:25:59.320 Right.

00:25:59.580 Well, he is a, right.

00:26:01.120 He is a boy, but at the same time, he basically, he says, no, I am in love with my cousin Nora.

00:26:07.700 And, uh, I, I am willing to fight you.

00:26:10.720 And he says at one point, I'm willing to, with pistol or sword, I'll go to a church and fight Captain Quinn.

00:26:16.080 And he's willing to do these things based on honor.

00:26:18.980 He doesn't, he's not going to gain much of anything by marrying Nora.

00:26:22.860 It's, it's just simple.

00:26:24.040 He has a, he has a kind of puppy love for her, but he also had thinks of her in an honorable manner.

00:26:29.180 And all these other people, these kind of schemers from, you know, these wily Irishmen, they're kind of like, what are you doing? 1.00

00:26:36.340 Don't bring honor into this. 0.97

00:26:37.660 This is all about money and sex.

00:26:39.380 Don't you get it?

00:26:40.900 Or just money, really.

00:26:42.160 Or just money.

00:26:42.780 And for him, it's just about honor because, uh, you know, when he believes, uh, he has killed Captain Quinn.

00:26:49.840 Yeah.

00:26:50.400 He has to flee because even if he had really killed him, uh, you know, killing an officer in, especially in wartime, he would be, um, actually, if, if, if he had been caught by the police, he would be killed.

00:27:05.460 Yeah.

00:27:05.900 So, it's, either way, if he wins or loses, he, he will be dead, so. 0.94

00:27:13.000 Right.

00:27:13.360 And he's willing to do that.

00:27:14.580 He puts honor over his life.

00:27:16.160 So, again, I, I think in this weird way, I think before we, we started the podcast, John, you mentioned that, um, William Thackeray's Barry Lyndon was one of the first antiheroes.

00:27:28.400 That's, that's what I read, that in the history of English literature, anyway, he's considered the first antihero, uh, that, you know, there, there, there, it was something new in English literature at that time that he introduced.

00:27:41.860 Yeah.

00:27:42.380 Uh, I mean, I think you're right.

00:27:44.000 In the, the film is very different from the book.

00:27:47.620 Uh, and it, you know, obviously in the film, I think Barry's somewhat more sympathetic, but, uh, yeah, but he is considered the first antihero.

00:27:56.360 But in a way, in this very Kubrickian way, I think it, it's almost like the antihero becomes the hero.

00:28:01.300 I mean, it's similar to Joker in Full Metal Jacket, you know, Joker almost becomes a warrior and, and a hero at the end of the film.

00:28:09.160 And, um, uh, you know, it's, I, I think, you know, when you think about it, to go back to an earlier theme, before we circle back to the aristocrats, to go back to an earlier theme of, of like, how do you access the past?

00:28:21.020 I think Kubrick is saying that you, you can't, like, there's, this isn't a reproduction or, or a reenactment of the past, because that, that, that's impossible.

00:28:31.960 Like, we're, we're, you, you can't, you know, it's like some of these conservatives, paleo-conservatives, something, who, who have some fantasy about returning to the Middle Ages or something and just becoming a nice little peasant.

00:28:43.180 Or maybe they imagine themselves as a king or something.

00:28:46.000 There's something, there's a kind of silly Dungeons and Dragons-like quality to that.

00:28:51.180 That, that's just, that's never going to happen.

00:28:53.180 You can't do it.

00:28:54.600 You can't, we're too, we've, we've lived through too much as a species.

00:28:59.380 We've, we're too ironic.

00:29:01.080 We can't do it.

00:29:02.520 And, um, it, it's just a fantasy.

00:29:05.160 Um, you know, it, you know, I, I'm, I'm thinking of, um, some of these conservatives, particularly, um, uh, Joe Sobran and others.

00:29:13.320 Joe Sobran would probably be aware of this, but you can't do it.

00:29:16.940 And, um, I think with, what Kubrick's saying with Barry Lyndon is, like, in order to access the past, you have to go through lenses.

00:29:26.020 And pun intended on that one.

00:29:27.580 I mean, you, you have to go through the NASA lens.

00:29:29.560 But also, you have to go through William Thackeray.

00:29:32.200 William Thackeray is a mid-19th century novelist who is, in a way, satiring the, you know, early romances of, of something like Goethe's, um, uh, you know, uh, the suffering of young Werther.

00:29:45.960 You know, the, you know, the Die Leiden des Jungen Werther's.

00:29:49.720 Uh, these, these hyper-romantic, you know, Sturm und Drang, kind of, uh, you know, a young man who, a building's Roman, a young man discovering his feelings and passions.

00:29:59.660 And he, in a deeply authentic and, and, uh, forthright type of novel, you know, he's satirizing that and saying that, no, look, it's all about sex and people are dissembling and playing games and things like that.

00:30:13.020 So, you know, in order to access that past, you've got to go through these filters.

00:30:16.440 You've got to go through the lens.

00:30:17.600 You've got to go through Thackeray.

00:30:19.480 But that's not quite right as well.

00:30:20.960 And, but, but it's almost through, through these windows, you can start to glimpse the past and, and, and, and get it, it, it's something true.

00:30:29.660 But anyway, uh, to circle back around to the aristocrats, I, I think what was interesting about like that scene where Barry Lyndon attacks Lord Bullington in the, the, you know, basically just to remind our listeners, um, this is the scene where it's after Barry has whipped Lord Bullington multiple times, uh, and six times as a, as a, as a young man as well, not just as a child.

00:30:59.660 And, um, and, um, and Lord Bullington, there, there's a concert going on and Lady Lyndon is playing the harpsichord and the horrible, uh, Minister Runt is, uh, playing the caronet.

00:31:10.900 He's a very important character.

00:31:12.760 Oh, he is.

00:31:13.300 We can talk about him a little bit later.

00:31:14.400 But I think what's, what's interesting about that scene is, you know, Lord Bullington comes in and in, in the most theatrical manner possible, he insults Barry Lyndon.

00:31:25.200 He calls him an Irish upstart.

00:31:27.120 He's not worthy of the society. 0.79

00:31:28.980 He's, he's a country bumpkin.

00:31:31.420 And he's, and he's trying to take, you know, he's taking away my inheritance.

00:31:36.180 You know, there, there's this almost obvious, like, edible complex of the young, uh, Lord Bullington.

00:31:41.480 But, but anyway, he, you know, he's, he's, he's deeply insulting Barry.

00:31:45.480 And then Barry, in a way, does something that is quite honest, despite the fact that he hits him in the back first.

00:31:52.900 He does something quite honest and understandable and something you can't really fault him for it.

00:31:57.520 He goes and punches him.

00:31:59.500 And, you know, he, he's kind of like, well, if you're going to try to, if you're going to be at war with me, let's just have it out.

00:32:04.460 Let's fight right here and honorably.

00:32:07.220 And all of these aristocrats, they're, they're, they're just horrified by this.

00:32:10.660 You know, it's like, oh my God, I can't believe it.

00:32:12.980 A fight.

00:32:13.820 Oh my God.

00:32:14.460 But at the same time, you know, all of them, you know, all of them, in a way they, they can't take violence.

00:32:18.800 You know, it's like.

00:32:19.860 Well, not direct violence.

00:32:20.860 Not directly.

00:32:22.060 Yeah.

00:32:22.280 Like they want to, they, they'll, they'll send an army over to fight the American rebels or they'll, they'll scheme in order to destroy their, their rival.

00:32:31.180 Or, you know, they, they, they're, they're aware though faintly that their titles and peerages are ultimately derived from the fact of someone acquired them by force of arms.

00:32:42.480 And so they're, they're kind of like, they, but they, they have to cover up violence with all these layers of formality and, and ornament and so on and so forth.

00:32:52.040 And, but it's almost like Barry Lyndon who, who forthrightly presents it as like, okay, you want to fight?

00:32:57.720 Let's fight.

00:32:58.640 You know, you can't do that.

00:33:00.260 Like, you're not one of us. 1.00

00:33:01.400 You're not one of, you're not one of our, you're not a true member of our shitty society of, of hypocrites. 1.00

00:33:09.300 You know, we're going to shun you. 0.99

00:33:11.580 And, uh, I, I don't know.

00:33:12.820 I just think that that was such a, that was such a powerful scene.

00:33:15.360 But anyway, I've been talking too much.

00:33:17.060 You guys should jump in, um, on, on that theme or, or some of these other things.

00:33:22.160 Well, I think that there's definitely, you know, we were talking about this before we started recording, uh, you know, about, well, and also earlier in this talk about the, the duality, you know, Kubrick never says just one thing.

00:33:33.800 There's always layers.

00:33:34.960 Yeah.

00:33:35.180 And I think on, on one level, you can sort of see ways in which that society was better than ours.

00:33:41.360 I mean, you know, the, the way everybody speaks in their manner.

00:33:44.400 Yeah.

00:33:44.800 It certainly is, you know, better than, than most of what we have today.

00:33:49.160 But, you know, at the same time, there's this, this obvious degeneracy.

00:33:53.500 It's, it's something, you know, with traditionalists often, I find, you know, that, uh, they, they take the, you know, the Evel and Ganon said, you know, the only valid form of government is monarchy.

00:34:05.620 Uh, they kind of take this too far in saying that, well, you know, the French revolution was bad because, you know, they overthrew the monarchy and everything.

00:34:12.540 But I, I was never able to come around to that view because we have to say that, you know, the monarchies at that time in Europe, I mean, they really were very corrupt and, and obviously degenerating.

00:34:23.460 And, you know, maybe in some, I mean, I'm not saying that I think the French revolution was all great, but at the same time, maybe it was necessary, you know, in order to sort of renew, renew things.

00:34:33.880 Yeah, actually, it's, it reminds me of Bain, you know, he's evil, but he's necessary evil.

00:34:40.140 Yes.

00:34:40.720 And, uh, it's, it's maybe what, uh, France, the French revolution was.

00:34:45.780 And, uh, I think I'm reminded of, uh, yeah, an article of, um, uh, at Occidental Dysentry, uh, all jokes aside, it was by our friend, uh, Gregory Hood.

00:35:02.220 And, uh, it was about the French revolution, actually.

00:35:06.200 And he said that he would take, um, what, you know, because Napoleon was, uh, obviously, uh, born of the revolution.

00:35:16.560 He was just, uh, a Corsican upstart, uh, at the beginning of it.

00:35:20.900 And that he would take the French revolution and what followed, uh, you know, uh, against, uh, the French monarchy just before that, anytime.

00:35:34.000 Uh, because it was corrupt, but also, uh, you know, sometimes these, uh, right-wing reactionaries are, you know, fantasizing a kind of rootedness of the aristocracy or things like that.

00:35:52.100 You know, uh, people were, aristocrats were close to their people and really caring about their land and tradition.

00:35:58.260 And it may be right for this, you know, the, the little aristocracy, but for the great lords and dukes and counts, uh, the people are, and the land they had were just tokens.

00:36:13.740 You know, they could exchange at some treaty or, so actually, uh, the French revolution and what followed next in the first half of the 19th century, um, the European people discovered things like identity, nationhood, um, they rediscovered tradition, actually, because, uh, Catholicism in Catholic countries had degenerated.

00:36:41.860 And the 19th century was a very Catholic, uh, century, uh, century.

00:36:46.500 So I'm not Catholic, but even from a Christian standpoint, uh, it might be argued that the French revolution was a kind of, um, you know, a necessary stage, uh, for tradition, uh, good things to, you know, to emerge again.

00:37:09.280 So it's, it's, it's complicated.

00:37:13.740 And Barry is kind of caught in that.

00:37:15.880 I mean, to go back to what John was saying, I mean, Barry is, is caught in the world.

00:37:20.640 And Barry is a remarkably, for being a pretend.

00:37:23.540 He comes too soon.

00:37:24.360 Yeah, he, maybe, yeah, you could say that.

00:37:26.280 Yeah, and, and also for, for Barry being this pretender or this, uh, dissembler, con artist, you know, so, I mean, I think in a way that, that is a misunderstanding of him.

00:37:37.380 I mean, he's, he's a very passive person.

00:37:39.480 I mean, things, things happen to Barry much more than he makes them happen.

00:37:45.520 Uh, you know, he, he, he just ends up with the, you know, Chevalier de Babari and he just can't, he, he ends up and he's like, oh, he's an iron.

00:37:54.040 That's the way he meets his wife, actually.

00:37:55.920 Yeah, that's the way he meets his wife. 0.97

00:37:56.980 He's just, uh, he's just assisting, uh, Chevalier de Babari at, uh, the card game.

00:38:02.820 Yeah, and he's in a way a passive receiver of his wife's affection.

00:38:06.960 And it's not like he really seduced Lady Lyndon.

00:38:10.420 Lady, Lady Lyndon was eyeing him at the card table.

00:38:15.140 And he, he walked out in an almost like a ballet-like manner, kind of, you know, approaches her very slowly, stylized.

00:38:22.560 And, and then she, she almost kisses him.

00:38:24.780 I mean, it's a, he, he, things happen to him.

00:38:27.000 I mean, with the Chevalier de Babari, he, he goes and he meets him and he can't help himself.

00:38:31.120 It's like, oh, I haven't seen a real, I've been in the Prussian army for years, seven years, in fact, you know, um, in this war.

00:38:39.100 And, uh, you know, I finally found someone from the old country and, and, oh, and you have such as wonderful clothes.

00:38:45.100 I, I'm gonna, I'm gonna weep in front of you.

00:38:47.240 He's, Barry is a deeply, for, for being a con artist, Barry is a deeply honest person and, and an authentic and genuine person.

00:38:55.960 And, you know, he, things just kind of, kind of happened to him.

00:38:59.720 But the title of the original novel was The Luck of Barry Lyndon, which I think is interesting.

00:39:05.760 Yeah.

00:39:06.120 No, I, I think that's, that's true.

00:39:07.780 And to, to go back to what Roman was saying is that I, I think Barry himself is, is kind of like, he, and to, and to go back to what you said too, John, Barry is kind of caught in between all these things.

00:39:20.300 Like, he's, he's, he's too soon, he, he's, he's, but, but he's too late at the same time.

00:39:26.940 Like, he, he, he has a sense of honor, but then, you know, he, he almost can't help himself as well to, you know, when, when a peer, a peerage is hanging off the low-hanging fruit on the tree, he's gonna grab it.

00:39:39.600 Or when Lady Lyndon is there, he's gonna go grab it.

00:39:42.960 But, and, and he's, you know, he's obviously, he's not very, he's not deep and he's not wise, but, but he is, he's clearly smart and he's, he's very good looking and he's brave.

00:39:54.260 And, and, and he, he kind of can't help himself.

00:39:57.280 He's going to play the game of this 18th century.

00:39:59.520 But he lacks imagination, actually.

00:40:01.980 It's, it's, it's, it's a kind of 18th century Patrick Bateman.

00:40:06.340 He just wants to fit in.

00:40:08.000 You know, you know, it's because in, uh, American Psycho, you have this scene in the taxi, right?

00:40:15.800 He says his girlfriend, I just want to fit in.

00:40:18.540 And it's actually just what Barry Lyndon wants to do.

00:40:22.700 He wants to get a peerage when, in England, it kept being useful. 0.69

00:40:27.260 But, uh, it's, you know, in seeing the big picture, wanting to, you know, be part of an aristocracy that was about to collapse is kind of ridiculous. 0.55

00:40:40.460 And he, he's not a visionary, obviously.

00:40:43.380 No, no, he's, he's definitely not that.

00:40:45.700 He's not, um, he doesn't have a very, he's not a man of thought, obviously.

00:40:53.820 But, uh, he doesn't really have, uh, you know, a reflection on, on things that happen to him.

00:41:01.480 He's, he just do them, does them.

00:41:03.820 And so he, of course, uh, circumstances force him, like when he's robbed of this money and he has to hide.

00:41:11.720 And, and so the army is convenient for him, but he doesn't really reflect on a path that could lead, lead him to a certain point.

00:41:21.260 And he, he meets his wife, his, his future wife, uh, completely at random.

00:41:26.920 So, yeah.

00:41:28.460 Do you think, to go on a little bit of a digression here, do you think that in a way we're kind of living in a late 18th century society?

00:41:36.420 Uh, yes.

00:41:38.160 And, in a way, like, there, there are a lot of parallels.

00:41:40.760 And I'm, and I'm, and you know, this, this, this movie was made in, was it 1975 or 1976?

00:41:45.640 Uh, 1976.

00:41:47.340 75.

00:41:47.600 Or 75, yeah.

00:41:48.860 So, I mean.

00:41:49.320 So, you were trying to get a peerage at the American conservatives.

00:41:52.840 That's what you're trying to say.

00:41:55.020 I'm a very.

00:41:55.900 With the best.

00:41:56.960 The best people.

00:41:58.380 The best.

00:41:59.420 The people about whom there is no question.

00:42:01.800 These people are safe.

00:42:03.100 Men of poverty.

00:42:03.440 But, in a way, I was, I was thinking about it, like, and, and I am just as, as, as, as, as, at fault of this as, as anyone.

00:42:14.320 But, you know, it's, it's interesting how the, the most common form of communication on the internet is actually sarcasm and irony.

00:42:24.400 Yeah, yeah.

00:42:25.580 And I, I actually mean that very, I mean that seriously when I say, you know, I, when I agree with you.

00:42:33.440 What I mean by, that is the, what I mean by that is that, you know, on, on Twitter or Facebook, the way you express yourself, and in a way you can do it very concisely, is to use sarcasm.

00:42:46.140 And the way you can get likes.

00:42:47.980 Yeah, and the way you get likes is, is to use sarcasm and retweets.

00:42:51.640 Yeah.

00:42:51.820 To use sarcasm and, and irony.

00:42:53.620 And so you say, oh, that's really classy of him.

00:42:55.680 The word classy is almost never used in a real way.

00:43:00.000 Classy is almost always ironical or, or something.

00:43:04.000 Like, you know, we, it's almost like people will tweet and basically every single thing they said is actually the opposite of what they said.

00:43:12.080 You know.

00:43:12.380 You know that famous essay by David Foster Wallace called, you know, irony is destroying our culture.

00:43:18.440 Yeah.

00:43:19.140 I mean, I think he was absolutely right about that.

00:43:21.480 Yeah.

00:43:22.180 So.

00:43:22.320 That maybe is good.

00:43:24.020 Yeah.

00:43:24.300 I mean, maybe it's necessary.

00:43:25.500 Yeah.

00:43:26.100 But also maybe what I was thinking about as well, I, I, when, when Ramon mentioned the, the dark night rises where a cat woman whispers to Bruce Wayne, she says, you know, there's a storm coming.

00:43:37.680 You better batten down the hatches.

00:43:39.400 You're not going to be able to live in this world.

00:43:41.280 And I almost, in a way we have a kind of 18th century society today.

00:43:45.140 I mean, you, if you, if you, if you think about the kind of decadent whites who are, you know, IT consultants or, you know, work doing computerized trading for some firm or whatever. 1.00

00:43:57.400 And they kind of, in a way they're, they're, they're, they're living in a, in a false world.

00:44:03.100 Like they're not, they're getting a lot of money, but they don't seem to be doing labor.

00:44:07.520 They're kind of, there's a lot of luck certainly involved with their, their, their, their, their status.

00:44:13.220 They, they might not quite have titles, but they have similar things.

00:44:16.360 Like I'm, I'm a creative director for a Silicon Valley startup or something, you know.

00:44:20.700 Yeah.

00:44:21.020 Yeah.

00:44:21.220 You know, they, they kind of have titles in a way and, and there, there, there's, there's a luck and then, and then they go and they kind of treat things ironically and they'll, they'll like indulge in, in silly, you know, scandals of the day, you know, like they'll, they'll, they'll tweet about, you know, a police officer brutalized a man.

00:44:40.580 And, you know, again, whether, whether he did or not, the, the whole point is, you know, they're, they're, they're, they're saying, oh, I'm on the side of the, the good multicultural people.

00:44:50.120 Cause I, I care about this man who was beaten up and killed by cops or something, you know, and it's just this, this silliness, you know, this, this not, this lack of seriousness.

00:44:59.680 And, you know, it, you can almost envision all of these people just being, you know, rounded up by, you know, mad, angry people.

00:45:10.580 Who knows Mexicans or blacks or something, and just, you know, totally done away with French revolutionary style, just because they're, they're, they're, they're benefiting from all, they have all this wealth, they're benefiting from the world, but then they don't really want to protect it. 0.99

00:45:24.060 They're certain, you know, they can't even, they can't even speak to you in a non-ironic fashion. 0.84

00:45:28.680 They certainly can't face death and look death in its eyes.

00:45:33.300 You know, they receive fire, receive fire.

00:45:35.640 I mean, they're going to, they're going to be running to get back to the movie.

00:45:39.680 Yeah, like, you know, if you challenge them, if they, if they, you know, steal your love or something, and you challenge them to do a duel, they're like, what are you even talking about?

00:45:50.160 You're going to, what?

00:45:51.500 You're going to fire a gun?

00:45:52.960 Oh, my God.

00:45:53.620 Oh, you're ready to receive my speech.

00:45:57.640 Like, you know, they, they don't have that, you know, there, there's this lack of, of a heroic instinct.

00:46:04.820 Um, so I, I don't know.

00:46:07.920 I, I think maybe we're, we're closer to live, we, we kind of live in the age of, of Linden.

00:46:14.200 Yeah, it's not an exact parallel, but I think you're right.

00:46:16.860 I mean, it's, it's an aristocracy now that's based solely on money rather than, you know, these other things that were important in the 18th century.

00:46:23.900 But it's, it's no less of an aristocracy and you still have to do all the right, that you'll say all the right things and do all the right things and act a certain way to get into it.

00:46:33.820 Uh, so yeah, I, I think the parallels are definitely there and, uh, on fiat money, uh, you know, it's no longer, uh, it's a 19th century capitalists who, who was owning something, uh, a factory or land or, you know, a fabric or something that's, or gold, of course.

00:46:53.980 And since, you know, um, uh, Gregory Hood has often quoted him and, uh, James Burnham should certainly be revisited, but not from the Leadership Institute standpoint.

00:47:07.440 And, uh, today it's fiat money.

00:47:10.820 So it's related to the fact that you have a central bank and, uh, private banks that can print money out of thin air.

00:47:18.660 And of course it changes everything.

00:47:21.160 And digital money.

00:47:22.100 And digital money and, and the other day you have nothing.

00:47:25.780 And, uh, and that's why you have to be very conformist, you know, you can't, um, you could have in the 19th century bourgeoisie, you could have very free spirits, free minds.

00:47:39.120 Uh, because once you got rich, you could remain rich, uh, out of, you know, your land and, you know, your tenants paying you, uh, your, your customers buying from your factory.

00:47:52.100 But today, if you're, you know, if you mess up, if you mess with, uh, you, you know, uh, the PC cannons of our time, you can have serious problems.

00:48:04.360 Even if you're wealthy, because we're inflation and with, uh, all the ways that the government or, um, you know, the financial institutions can access your money.

00:48:18.720 You, you, you, you can't really get away with it if you, um, you know, even if you're really, really wealthy, you, you can't, uh, you can't do what you want of it.

00:48:30.980 And that explains partly why you can, you can have, uh, billionaire traders, uh, you know, rooting for far left, far left causes because their money isn't safe.

00:48:44.520 Yeah.

00:48:44.660 I mean, imagine if, um, imagine if Zuckerberg, uh, for whatever reason said, oh yeah, you know, I, I think there actually are significant IQ differences between races or something.

00:48:57.040 Like, he, like, like, like, like, literally would go from a billionaire to zero in, in like minutes.

00:49:05.320 Yeah.

00:49:05.780 I mean, people would leave, they would go to Google Plus or wherever and, uh, you know.

00:49:11.760 Well, they wouldn't do that.

00:49:13.000 Not Google Plus.

00:49:14.260 Nothing that extreme, but, but, no, they, they would do something else.

00:49:19.060 And, you know, these things are not, you know, they, these things are really ephemeral.

00:49:23.320 I mean, there, you can move and leave and there's nothing to it, you know, he could, he, his wealth could evaporate.

00:49:29.540 I mean, it's, it's that, you know, it's, it, he, he, he stands on a precipice to that degree.

00:49:34.740 Um, it is kind of all fake.

00:49:36.920 It's not, it's not like he owns herds of cattle and has peasants working his land where he could say, you know, I can stand for myself.

00:49:44.080 Uh, imagine if, uh, if Bill Gates was, instead of, uh, you know, uh, flooding Africa with billions, uh, just gave it to NPI.

00:49:55.100 In a matter of maybe days or hours or minutes, uh, he would be, uh, you know, all his more, most faithful, uh, you know, collaborators would tweet against him and there would be press releases and maybe, or, yes, of course, you, you would have, uh, opinion pulse and he would be a dead man.

00:50:20.540 Just the fact that the language he used, all of his former follows would begin tweeting against him.

00:50:26.240 Like, it was something that, like, expresses the, just silliness of, of the world.

00:50:33.080 We live in, uh, Bill Gates should do that and I, I would be, um, I'm a long time Mac user, but if he wants to, uh, give me his billions, uh, we, we could make an arrangement.

00:50:45.240 We could, I could put my pride aside for that one.

00:50:47.940 Um, but, uh, okay, well, we're, uh, what else should we pick up?

00:50:53.500 We were talking about Barley and then a dozen minutes ago.

00:50:57.520 Well, we didn't touch on the, you know, the very last, you know, the epilogue with, you know, they are all, you know, we talked about that before, but, uh.

00:51:05.540 Oh, I think that's hugely important.

00:51:07.160 Go for it.

00:51:08.060 Yeah, good.

00:51:08.760 Well, you know, I, I agree with what you said, Richard, that, you know, it can be read in many different ways.

00:51:13.680 I mean, the, the obvious way is that they're all equal in, in terms of that they're all dead today.

00:51:18.640 Yeah.

00:51:19.180 Uh, but of course it's also a reference to, uh, 1789, you know, which is the date on the, you know, this, I guess it's sort of an 18th century check that's being written out to Barry, uh, you know, sort of his.

00:51:33.120 Annuity.

00:51:33.320 Yeah.

00:51:34.060 Yeah.

00:51:34.760 And, uh, you know, referring to the French revolution that, you know, all the, you know, this system that all these people are part of is crumbling and, you know, soon they're going to be, you know, no different considered no different from anybody else.

00:51:47.620 Yeah.

00:51:48.120 Uh, there's that element.

00:51:49.400 And I, I think Richard, you were saying something before about how, uh, you know, this idea of equality is, you know, another way of looking at it is that like, you know, all this refinement and everything is, is going to go away so that, you know, we can have Walmarts.

00:52:05.840 And, uh, yeah, I, I think it's both or, or all three.

00:52:10.500 I mean, I, that, that's what I think is so interesting about, about Kubrick.

00:52:14.480 And that's why I think, I, I kind of, I, I think we should talk about him and explore his films is because there's so many layers and, um, yeah, I mean, there is the, the Hamlet like layer of poor Uric's skull, like this idea that, you know, a peasant or a, or a king, we're all the same.

00:52:30.660 We're, we're dust, we're bones at the end of it.

00:52:34.100 Um, and, and, and I think he's also clearly referring to the, you know, 1789 and, and, and subsequent revolutions.

00:52:41.880 Uh, but, you know, in another way, I think, you know, this goes back to that idea of like the, the multiple layers to the film and, and, you know, this is a Thackeray novel.

00:52:51.420 And if you look at the, uh, the narrator to, to the film, Barry Lyndon, he, he has a Thackeray like quality.

00:52:59.860 Although, uh, I just learned from you that before we, uh, started recording that, that actually the, the, the narrator, the narrator's lines are not from the book.

00:53:08.800 Exactly.

00:53:09.380 They're kind of.

00:53:10.500 No, not at all.

00:53:11.380 Because the, the book is actually written in the first person from Barry's point of view, uh, which actually is another significant difference because he's kind of an unreliable narrator.

00:53:22.620 And you can tell that like he exaggerates things and, and alters the truth so that, that kind of element is missing from the film because you're seeing everything objectively.

00:53:31.000 But the narrator also doesn't get it, I think, you know, the, the narrator, I, I think from a, from a 19th century standpoint almost doesn't get it.

00:53:40.680 What I was going to say, I'll, I'll, I'll talk about that, but, but I'll, I'll circle back real quickly to the, they're all equal now.

00:53:46.300 Uh, the, my sense of the narrator was almost like he is some kind of, uh, uh, uh, Christian libertarian who might write for lewrockwell.com or something.

00:53:58.320 He's like, uh, uh, uh, oh, look at this, the, this is the murderous work of these aristocrats.

00:54:06.080 Uh, you know, they, they, they're, they're so terrible.

00:54:08.520 And, and there was actually one, one scene where I think the narrator really proved that he was unreliable is that he, um, it was when Barry is, um, uh, uh, has the pretense of being an officer.

00:54:21.060 He steals an officer's clothing and he goes and he, uh, uh, he, he goes and meets this, uh, leech, uh, leech, well, it sounds like leechin, but I think it's leechin, who's a young, a German girl with a young, you know, boy, a young child.

00:54:34.160 And her husband's away and they, uh, they go and have a, uh, a romance.

00:54:40.420 Um, but, you know, at the end of that, you know, Barry goes in and I think in a way he finds the love that he was searching for with Nora.

00:54:48.920 You know, he, um, he goes and he has an honest romance that, that's sexual, but, but also very honest and, and loving, uh, with this, you know, although fleeting with this woman.

00:55:00.480 And, um, at the end of it.

00:55:02.660 You mean with, uh, the, the Prussian.

00:55:04.640 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:55:05.520 Yeah, I said German, Prussian.

00:55:07.020 And, um.

00:55:07.460 No, she's not Prussian, actually.

00:55:10.060 Where is she?

00:55:10.440 It's, uh, in another part of Germany, but.

00:55:12.400 So she is, yeah.

00:55:13.300 It's not Prussian.

00:55:14.520 Yeah, she's German of some, uh, uh, some nature. 1.00

00:55:17.520 She's speaking German.

00:55:18.880 And it's actually kind of interesting because he, you know, Barry Lyndon has learned to speak German, but he almost wants to speak English.

00:55:25.840 He speaks German better than Lieschen speaks English, but he almost wants to speak English, Irish English with her so that he can almost re-experience his love with, with Nora, I think.

00:55:37.820 Uh, but anyway, at the end of that, when they're departing, um, he, and they're speaking German, actually.

00:55:43.380 He says, Auf Wiedersehen, and he says, uh, you know, Auf Wiedersehen Lieschen.

00:55:46.660 And then she says, Auf Wiedersehen Redmond.

00:55:49.380 And what that indicates is that, you know, in their 48-hour romance, or how long it was, uh, Barry was actually honest with her.

00:55:58.400 And he, he told her that he was not, um, Jonathan Fekium, or, or what is his name?

00:56:04.640 Fakenum.

00:56:05.040 Fakenum, yeah.

00:56:06.020 Fakenum.

00:56:06.760 Again, the, the word fake is, you can't say, you can, you hear fake in there.

00:56:10.760 It's, it's clear.

00:56:11.360 But anyway, um, so he's actually told her the truth, and she still loves him, and, and he leaves.

00:56:17.620 And then, then the, the, the Thackeray-esque, ironical narrator comes in.

00:56:22.580 He's like, oh, you know, she, uh, she was one more town that was stormed and, uh, pillaged by a soldier.

00:56:30.280 But that's really the wrong view.

00:56:32.220 I mean, that, that's almost the, the kind of 19th century view of they're all equal now.

00:56:36.740 You know, like, oh, they had a lot of pretenses back in the day, but now we all have one vote, you know, or something like that.

00:56:43.920 And I think, in a way, Kubrick isn't saying that.

00:56:47.580 I, I think.

00:56:48.020 That's kind of the modern way of, like, looking at the past.

00:56:50.740 Yeah.

00:56:50.900 It's like, I mean, even now, you know, when they make movies and TV series, well, like Mad Men, you know, set in the 50s and 60s.

00:56:57.180 Like, oh, look how much more advanced we are now.

00:57:00.000 Well, you know, I, I don't think that's what Kubrick is trying to do, but you're right.

00:57:04.960 The narrator kind of reflects that idea.

00:57:07.380 Yeah.

00:57:07.640 He's a, he's a kind of Christian libertarian who, who, who kind of thinks that all these aristocrats are all evil, the state is evil or something.

00:57:15.280 And, um, uh, and then, you know, but, but again, I think that, that misses the fact that, you know, Kubrick does admire the achievements of the 18th century.

00:57:25.240 You know, it, it, it, warts and all, it, it, it, it is a kind of higher civilization.

00:57:30.740 There, there was still, there was a sense of decorum and formality and, and meaning that I, I think he still takes seriously.

00:57:38.480 Um, and so, you know, you kind of miss that.

00:57:41.040 And, and again, this, this goes back to, guy, I'm, I'm, I'm rambling, but I think that, that, that, that works for this film because there's so many different meanings.

00:57:48.680 But it also goes back to the fact that Barry Lyndon, despite the fact that he's a con artist, is very honest.

00:57:56.180 Like, in a way, all he wants is love.

00:57:59.420 You know, he, he wants, he, he wants to, he wants to, he wants to, he's searching for a father figure.

00:58:04.920 You know, he, he, he, his father, you know, died in a duel, uh, you know, shortly after he was born.

00:58:10.800 And he's kind of searching for a father figure and, um, and he finds it in the Chevalier, you know, of all people at some point.

00:58:19.120 But, um.

00:58:19.780 Patrick McGee.

00:58:20.700 Yeah, yeah.

00:58:22.000 But, but I think he also is searching for love.

00:58:24.640 I think he wants honest, you know, companionship.

00:58:28.180 And, uh, Barry probably becomes the father that he never had with his son.

00:58:32.620 Again, who he's, who, even the narrator admits that he is a loving, uh, father.

00:58:37.680 And so, I, I think in this weird way, Barry, Barry is a kind of deeply honest person.

00:58:43.960 Yeah.

00:58:45.160 I did want to point out, too, since we were talking about the narrator, there was something I, this last time that I watched it that I'd never picked up before, is that there's an interesting thing when, after Barry comes in and kind of confronts Lord Bullingdon, I mean, the, the elder.

00:59:01.280 Oh, yes.

00:59:02.000 Is that his name?

00:59:02.680 And, and he gets.

00:59:03.980 Oh, the Elder Lyndon.

00:59:05.240 Elder Lyndon, right.

00:59:06.620 Yeah.

00:59:06.800 And he, he, uh, you know, he starts to sort of go into having a heart attack or something that the narrator, uh, launches into this long sort of obituary for him.

00:59:18.180 And there's a historical inaccuracy in it, actually.

00:59:23.080 Okay.

00:59:23.760 Really?

00:59:24.160 The narrator says, it's just, uh, just in passing, uh, I, I will be short, I promise.

00:59:29.280 He says, uh, died in the kingdom of Belgium, which didn't exist at that time.

00:59:34.720 And actually, uh, it's not the kingdom of Belgium, but the kingdom of the Belgians.

00:59:39.740 Just, I, I, I've done.

00:59:41.680 I'm done.

00:59:42.060 I wonder if that was on purpose or not.

00:59:44.180 But the, the thing I was going to mention is that he starts reciting this obituary and then Kubrick sort of turns it off.

00:59:51.020 Yeah.

00:59:51.460 Like, in mid-sentence, he just cuts the guy off.

00:59:54.460 Yeah.

00:59:54.940 And it's very interesting.

00:59:56.220 I, I, I was wondering what he's trying to communicate there, that maybe it's like, uh, you know, he is suggesting that, like, you know, his perspective and the narrator's aren't the same.

01:00:05.600 It doesn't really matter.

01:00:06.560 Definitely, he's saying, I mean, I, he's turning his head away while someone's yammering on.

01:00:11.100 I mean, I think that's, I think that's definitely what Kubrick can say.

01:00:13.580 I think it's, it's too easy to look at the film and be, and say, like, oh, the, the narrator is the voice of Kubrick.

01:00:20.120 Oh, definitely not.

01:00:21.800 Yeah.

01:00:22.760 But it's almost like that gives Kubrick plausible deniability, you know, as well.

01:00:28.060 Like, it, you know, but no, I, I think, you know, he, Kubrick is saying something very different

01:00:34.180 than the superficial meaning of the final title card and the kind of, you know, ironical moralisms of the narrator.

01:00:45.860 You know, although the narrator had some good lines, you know, you would need a philosopher and a historian to determine the causes of the Seven Years' War.

01:00:53.900 Yeah.

01:00:55.960 He has some good, uh, good insights.

01:00:58.940 But when I watched it the first time and all the times afterwards, um, what really struck me is this line of the narrator when he says, I'm not sure of the, the exact wording, but maybe you have it, Richard.

01:01:12.680 Uh, when he says that, uh, Redmond Barry is the kind of guy that can forcefully win a fortune, but, uh, cannot keep it.

01:01:21.980 And actually the story is divided in what would maybe a little simply, uh, summed up as, uh, the rise and fall of Barry Lyndon.

01:01:33.820 And, uh, but in the second part, uh, and it's strictly divided, like, uh, actually like, uh, a play.

01:01:44.240 Um, what strikes me is that, uh, it's even if everything is beautiful and, uh, as a life he has is what many people to this day dream of.

01:01:58.720 I don't, but, uh, many people we know, uh, dream of, and it's really boring.

01:02:05.680 I mean, so there's this birthday party with, uh, you know, uh, the magician and you have, uh, all these nice horses and, uh, ballet and concerts, but it's utterly boring, especially for a man who knew war and who could, you know, uh, rub elbows with powerful figures.

01:02:28.160 And military leaders.

01:02:30.780 And, uh, for me and 10 years ago, it, it's the way I interpreted it, but, uh, I wasn't as politically mature as today.

01:02:40.640 And I saw it as an allegory of the West.

01:02:44.140 Um, you know, the West is dying of boredom.

01:02:49.200 Uh, and, and if you're looking for a real reason why people don't make children, it's, you know, like tigers and lions.

01:02:57.360 When they are in, in zoos, they don't procreate because there's no reason to die and therefore to live for.

01:03:03.900 Yeah.

01:03:04.280 And, um, uh, of course I'm slightly overreading because I, I don't think, I'm not sure at least that Kubrick wants to say that, uh, you know, boredom is, uh, you know, boredom is what is killing the West today.

01:03:23.420 As it was, uh, of the European aristocracy in the 18th century, but that's what we are witnessing anyway.

01:03:30.020 You know, um, people don't really have, they don't have a higher goal, but even in their day to day life, there is plenty of boredom.

01:03:39.680 And, and maybe the worst thing is that before it was possible to accept it, you know, in a simple society, uh, like, uh, an agrarian society, boredom was maybe part of life when, you know, you have to wait for the harvest because you have sown and you have to wait for it.

01:04:01.440 But now we don't accept it and we are dying of it or maybe not we, but, uh, the Western civilization.

01:04:09.500 We're all kind of like Lady Lyndon in a way, you know, we, um, you know, who, you know, who is this passionless, she has certain desires and, and, and lust, but, but she's a very passionless and, and passive person.

01:04:24.980 Well, the implication is that Barry kind of forces her to be though.

01:04:29.980 Yeah.

01:04:31.000 In the way, you know, in the narrative of the film, remember it says that the narrator says with kind of a sarcastic tone about how Barry thought it more proper for her to withdraw from the cares of the world.

01:04:42.140 But again, I don't, I don't trust the narrator.

01:04:45.740 He also says that, you know, Lady Lyndon became to Barry like a, a puppy dog or a furniture or something.

01:04:52.240 But I, I actually, I, I think the narrator is unreliable.

01:04:55.460 I, I think that Barry actually is loyal to her.

01:04:59.500 I think you can see that in, you know, the fact that he stops, he stops cheating on her.

01:05:06.520 Yeah.

01:05:06.800 At least what we know of after he's, uh, you know, he's found, uh, you know, with the maid.

01:05:14.500 Yeah.

01:05:14.740 He apologizes.

01:05:16.520 I mean, there, there's a, a really amazing scene.

01:05:18.540 And I, I think I might've mentioned this where she's lying in a tub and he has that, you know, Kubrick that, you know, characteristic fate or, or, or, uh, where he's drawing the camera away and the, the, you know, kind of thing.

01:05:31.140 And she's sitting in the tub in this languid, passionless, you know, almost asleep fashion.

01:05:38.440 And Barry comes over and he apologizes to her.

01:05:41.180 He says, I'm sorry.

01:05:42.120 And then he bends down and kisses her.

01:05:43.620 Much like Nora bent down and kissed him in the, the first scene of the movie.

01:05:48.460 Um, there, there's a kind of, there's a way that he's actually loyal to Lady Lyndon.

01:05:52.620 But, but to go back to what I was saying before, I, I think Lady Lyndon is kind of, uh, you know, an allegory for the West in the sense that she, she has certain desires like that are normal and healthy.

01:06:04.820 Um, but she, she's kind of playing a game she doesn't really understand.

01:06:08.240 You know, she, she, she's flirting with her eyes, you know, with Barry Lyndon and, uh, then he comes in and kind of ruins her fortune.

01:06:16.300 Um, but, but she, you know, she, she becomes passionless. 0.65

01:06:20.480 She, she, at one point, she, you know, uh, tries to commit suicide and goes through this, you know, uh, you know, uh, crazed, uh, uh, distressed, you know, period.

01:06:31.740 Um, but, uh, but, uh, but, uh, you know, at the end of the day, she, her, she's spending all of her time writing checks and just, you know, diminishing her fortune by the day.

01:06:42.680 It is, it is kind of an allegory for the West.

01:06:44.800 There's, there's nothing there about writing checks and even the people, even the, a little like the West today, actually.

01:06:50.580 Yeah.

01:06:50.840 Oh, we better write Africa.

01:06:52.480 No, it's public, public and private.

01:06:55.100 I'm not talking about, um, public aid to the third world, but rather, uh, how we are indebted to our Chinese and Saudi and other, you know, uh, money.

01:07:09.500 Uh, sorry, uh, where they're actually making, but yeah, actually it's because, uh, eventually, of course she stays wealthy, but, uh, her wealth is, uh, very significantly diminished by all the, the expenses that were made.

01:07:29.840 And, uh, oh yeah, she doesn't, she doesn't even know what she's doing. 0.54

01:07:33.840 I mean, she, at the end of the day, it's like you, you've, you need to maintain the certain lifestyle.

01:07:39.800 And so you spend all of your time.

01:07:42.260 Keep your rank.

01:07:43.220 Yeah.

01:07:43.580 Your rank.

01:07:44.140 But, but then you spend like 90% of your time, you know, with, with bankers and lawyers and, and, you know, writing checks and transferring funds.

01:07:51.840 Um, I love that line about Barry spending all of his time corresponding with decorators and, and cooks.

01:07:58.900 Right, right.

01:08:00.760 Well, it's, you know, it's, it's like the, the billionaire who he, he, he wants to, you know, who would be much happier if he only had a 30 grand a year or something.

01:08:09.600 Because, you know, he, he's spent, you know, oh, I, now I have all this, I need to figure out how to invest all this stuff.

01:08:15.440 I don't even know what to do with it.

01:08:16.560 And I, he spends all this time with lawyers, just writing checks to them.

01:08:20.500 I mean, it's.

01:08:20.880 But the problem, uh, and I agree of your interpretation, uh, of the narrator, the problem is at the root of the Western software, so to speak, uh, starting from humanism and the reformation.

01:08:35.620 It's this idea that human life is, you know, its meaning is, and its value is, uh, measured by happiness, the level of happiness that you achieve.

01:08:50.820 And I, I really feel, uh, you know, I, I'm not a happy person because I don't care about happiness.

01:08:59.180 That's what I want to, to do is achieving something.

01:09:02.960 And because someone with Down syndrome can be happy, you know, and, uh, Forrest Gump is happy.

01:09:09.520 And, uh, I don't want to be Forrest Gump, uh, even if it's what we're expected to be as white males.

01:09:16.020 Um, uh, and the problem is that the narrator, uh, for him, everything that matters is if people were happy or not.

01:09:25.660 And it's the way he comments on, uh, you know, Barry Lyndon's destiny and Lady Lyndon's, uh, you know, suffering.

01:09:34.940 And, uh, it's not really important.

01:09:37.440 Uh, if someone becomes a billionaire or a great statesman or a great artist and is unhappy with his life, it's fine.

01:09:46.980 Uh, I, I mean, Kubrick, I, I don't think Kubrick was a happy person.

01:09:51.520 Uh, I read, I read that he was, I read that he was a very, um, he was, uh, uh, kind of family man, you know, with, uh, because he was protecting his family and in, you know, his family's fear, he was maybe happy.

01:10:09.100 But to create something and to go further and to go, you know, upward, you have to be unsatisfied with what you're doing.

01:10:18.000 So that's some, the problem with Barry Lyndon's destiny is that he wants to achieve a kind of, you know, to create paradise on earth.

01:10:27.040 And, of course, it's, uh, surest way to, you know, to die without a legacy and actually to, you know, a legacy in terms of genetic legacy and cultural legacy.

01:10:42.780 He doesn't leave anything be, you know, after him.

01:10:46.260 So, and the problem is happiness, the quest for happiness, which is pointless, in my opinion.

01:10:54.400 I, I, I agree that, that happiness is, is overrated.

01:10:59.860 There's, there's something, uh, you don't want to become, you don't want to become satisfied or, or, or fat.

01:11:05.900 If you can actually be satisfied with, by something that you buy, that there, there's some, there's, there's a problem with you.

01:11:12.540 I, I wouldn't, you know, I'm not, I don't, I don't want to deny the, you know, uh, some satisfaction with having a good meal or buying some new coat or something.

01:11:22.920 But, uh, but if, if that is, it's joy more than happiness.

01:11:27.520 Happiness is like a permanent state. 1.00

01:11:29.820 And actually it's an illusion because it's the only happy persons I, I, I met were stupid people. 0.96

01:11:37.200 Or the clever people I met were unhappy because even if they were successful, successful is not the same thing as happy. 0.94

01:11:44.840 They, they wanted to do more and, you know, uh, especially people who are more intellectual, but even people who were, you know, like, uh, starting companies and, you know, making good money of it and creating things for people.

01:12:01.600 So they, they, they were never satisfied with, they wanted more.

01:12:06.720 And so they were working harder to get it.

01:12:09.140 Yeah.

01:12:09.640 They didn't tell themselves, Oh no, I've achieved what I wanted.

01:12:14.020 I will just wait for, you know, for death, which is what happiness amounts to.

01:12:19.360 Well, I have to say the only place I've been where a lot of people, you know, the majority of people seem to be happy was India.

01:12:26.480 Ironically, I could, I could talk for quite a while for why I think that is, but yeah, I think it's, it's related to this idea that, you know, most people there have very little.

01:12:35.360 And they don't, you know, really concern themselves with the future because, you know, very likely their future will be exactly like their present.

01:12:42.740 So they don't, they don't really spend a lot of time, uh, uh, worrying about, uh, a lot of the things that bother us in the West.

01:12:51.820 Yeah.

01:12:54.740 Well, why don't we put a bookmark on this one?

01:12:59.040 Uh, I, I think we should come back to this maybe in a few years, but, um, we'll have seen the movie with new eyes.

01:13:04.680 But on December 19th, right.

01:13:09.340 Hopefully sooner.

01:13:10.200 Well, maybe not this one.

01:13:12.460 No, we should, uh, before a year goes by, I think we should do another one.

01:13:16.340 But, uh, but John and, uh, Romain, thank you.

01:13:19.540 And, uh, I, I look forward to, uh, talking about the next one with you.

01:13:23.880 Oh, you're welcome, Richard.

01:13:25.100 Thanks for having me.

01:13:34.680 Oh, you're welcome.

01:14:04.680 Thank you.

01:14:34.680 Oh, you're welcome.

01:15:04.680 Oh, you're welcome.

01:15:34.680 Oh, you're welcome.

01:15:36.680 Oh, you're welcome.

01:16:04.680 Oh, you're welcome.

01:16:06.680 Oh, you're welcome.

01:16:08.680 Thank you.

01:16:38.680 Thank you.

RadixJournal - December 26, 2014

The Importance of Being Earnest

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Transcript