John, Romain, and John return to discuss Stanley Kubrick's latest film, Barry Lyndon. They discuss the themes of the film, Kubrick's artistic vision, and the relationship between art and cinema. They also discuss how Kubrick's work can be seen through the lens of the past and present.
00:05:55.960And they, they involve an older camera itself.
00:05:58.960And, and then also he, he attached to it the, the latest technology at the time,
00:06:04.960which was a, a lens made by the very famous lens maker from Switzerland, Zeiss.
00:06:11.960But it was actually made for, for NASA.
00:06:13.960It was made for satellites and things like that.
00:06:17.960It was almost like he was using space age technology in order to finally be able to film the 18th century.
00:06:24.960And what it creates is a, it made it, it made it, it gave Kubrick the ability to actually capture candlelight.
00:06:32.960And so that you didn't need all of this artificial light on people where, where it really creates a kind of synthetic world.
00:06:39.960And you can, you know, you can put a, you can create a scene just as you, just perfect.
00:06:45.960And what, and instead what he does is he actually films candlelight.
00:06:48.960And it, it gives the scene a more, obviously more authentic to, to the period,
00:06:53.960but also almost kind of spontaneous quality, if that's the right word.
00:06:58.960Like you don't, you, you can't, it's not a synthetic quality you create in a studio.
00:07:03.960It's, it's something that that's real and it's different.
00:07:06.960And it also creates this, this kind of lens that can capture that light is also this incredibly narrow depth of field or shallow depth of field rather.
00:07:16.960And so it, it, again, it gives the quality of this almost two dimensional quality that you're really looking at a painting when there's this, you know, focus on the foreground and the background becomes a, a blur.
00:07:29.960It's, it's, it's, it's just an amazing kind of surreal kind of dreamlike effect.
00:07:34.960And, you know, again, I, I just, I, I don't, I don't know if any other director would take the care to do that, to, to not just make a costume drama.
00:07:44.960You know, that's obviously been done before.
00:07:47.960But to almost, to think about, we need to use a new technology in order to, to see into the past.
00:07:54.960You know, just like we can use a telescope to see to the stars, we need this new lens in order to see back into the 18th century.
00:08:01.960It's just something that I, I find, you know, anyway, just thinking about it is, is, is pretty amazing.
00:08:17.960Just the, the, the aesthetic world that Kubrick creates with Barry Lyndon.
00:08:22.960Well, I think all of his films have this very strong aesthetic quality.
00:08:27.960I mean, you know, he was, he's began as a photographer and he sort of carries over this sense, I think, into film because, you know, he puts such care into shot composition.
00:08:40.960Uh, I mean, a lot of his, I mean, this one is the most like a painting, although, you know, all of his films are beautiful.
00:08:48.960Uh, you know, as for what you said about technology, I think that's a good point.
00:08:52.960I remember Kubrick in an interview made a famous comment that if it, if it can be written, it can be filmed.
00:08:59.960Uh, and I, I thought that, I think that he believed that, you know, through the medium of film, you could, you could access almost anything, you know, any element of the human experience.
00:09:09.960Uh, another element for me, as far as the aesthetics go is that this is really, uh, the closest Kubrick ever came to his dream project, uh, which was, you know, his Napoleon film.
00:09:23.960Which he had actually attempted to do after clockwork orange.
00:09:26.960And I don't remember all the details, but there was a strike in England in the film industry or something, and he wasn't actually able to do it, but you can kind of see that, you know, I mean, it's, it's obviously a little bit earlier in time, but you know, there is, you know, especially in the war scenes, there's a little bit of a Napoleonic quality, uh, to the way he films them.
00:09:47.960Uh, so I think there's a little bit of that.
00:09:50.960Uh, but as far as the aesthetic being like a painting, I, I absolutely agree with that.
00:09:56.960Uh, although I, I sometimes see it like in 2001, how, you know, Kubrick portrays technology in this really, you know, kind of Faustian incredible heroic way, you know, at the same time, he also kind of undermines it by showing how it's dehumanizing.
00:10:13.960And I, I see that in Barry Lyndon as well, because in so many shots, he'll, he'll sort of zoom in on a human figure and then the camera sort of slowly pulls back.
00:10:24.960And you see that the, whichever character it is is sort of, you know, at the center of this, you know, beautiful painting like, uh, vision.
00:10:33.960Uh, and you know, while it is beautiful at the same time, it occurred to me, I feel like Kubrick is almost showing the person is being trapped.
00:10:41.960In that they're, they're almost reduced to, you know, part of the scenery, which I, I, I think relates to the theme of the film, which is that, you know, there's, there's, you know, if you want to get into high society at this time, you know, you have to kind of, you know, surrender your freedom and submit yourself to all these.
00:11:00.960All these, you know, different, uh, you know, mores and ways of doing things.
00:11:05.960And, you know, that in a way it is kind of dehumanizing.
00:11:08.960And I kind of see that reflected in the aesthetic, uh, also in the battle scenes, uh, you know, that, that very bizarre scene where they're, they're attacking the French position.
00:11:20.520And, you know, even though I know that, you know, this is the way wars were actually fought at that time, you know, it's almost surreal the way, you know, the, the British troops just walk steadfastly into the French fire and they sort of fall like bowling pins without even making a sound.
00:11:36.160And there's this sense that they're like, you know, being, you know, on this conveyor belt, almost, you know, being delivered for slaughter, which, which also I think relates to the, the duel, uh, especially the last one where you sort of have to stand there absolutely still while somebody else, you know, shoots at you from a, from a few feet away.
00:11:56.820So you can receive his fire, which is a euphemism for being shot.
00:12:01.620Well, I know Kubrick did a huge amount of research into the way duels were fought and apparently they went through fashions just like everything else in Europe.
00:12:11.240And, uh, like the way he depicts the three duels in the films is supposed to be, you know, very accurate, but yeah, I can't imagine like, yeah, stand and receive your enemy's fire.
00:12:23.440Well, I, I think just to jump in and then I'll, I'll pass it to Romain, but I, I think with everything with Kubrick, there, there's a, there are all these layers of irony and, you know, and, and you can see this in these things where, you know, like Full Metal Jacket is both an anti-war film and a pro-war film, uh, to be frank, all at the same time.
00:12:43.980And I will, we'll get to that, but I think you can see this here with Barry Lyndon and also, uh, you know, technology is both dehumanizing and humanizing at the same time.
00:12:52.320And it's kind of interesting in 2001, I mean, how, you know, gains consciousness and becomes a kind of character, uh, you know, much more so than Bowman who becomes, who's a kind of 1950s company man who has no emotions or history or thoughts or feelings or philosophy.
00:13:09.640And so Hal's the only character. And even at the end when he's being, when he's dying, he's being killed, he becomes a kind of child and sings a song in this like deeply human, human way.
00:13:21.140Uh, so I, I, I think with, with everything, I, I don't disagree with what you said. I think technology is dehumanizing, you know, in Kubrick and in, in the real world.
00:13:28.820But, but I think with, with Kubrick, it's, it's, there are all these layers. And even with these things like the, um, you know, the British marching in, in that skirmish, just marching into the fire of the French soldiers or standing and receiving fire.
00:13:43.720I mean, to a degree, you know, part of us wants to look at that and be like, oh, this is insane. You know, what are you doing? You're, you're, you're allowing formality. You're just dying for formality sake or something. You're, you're being, you're an idiot.
00:13:55.920But on another level, there's something really deeply heroic and courageous about challenging someone to a duel and facing death and being willing to put your honor over, over your life and, and, and receiving, you know, marching into a, uh, marching into an opposing force.
00:14:18.680I mean, we're reminded of people in the 20th and 21st century of, you know, the laptop bombardiers. Uh, I think it was Alex Coburn might've coined that phrase, but those, you know, who, who are on their little laptop and they, they're, oh yeah, let's send a drone over to Pakistan and blow up someone we think is a terrorist. Yeah, that's great.
00:14:37.040You never get your hands dirty, but you know, in the 18th century to, to march forthrightly into your enemy's fire. There, there's something profoundly heroic and deeply human about it. Um, you know, all the same. I, I, I think Kubrick is getting, I mean, this is one thing I say a lot. I mean, Kubrick is getting at that.
00:14:56.460He's getting at these layers of, of, of irony and, and, and, and different layers to something where something could be kind of anti-war and pro-war at the same time. It could be, you know, Barry Lyndon's an anti-hero and a hero, I would say, all at the same time. But anyway, I've, I've talked too much. Let me, um, Romain, why don't you, uh, why don't you jump in on anything that you find interesting about what we've just talked about?
00:15:18.360Well, um, like you, Richard, I, I saw it, uh, quite lately in my, in my life. I, I, I think I was something like 20 or 22. And, uh, a few years ago, I, I rewatched it and I, I discussed it with, with friends. And one of them said that, uh, Barry Lyndon was celebrating old Europe, which of course is a concern for us.
00:15:46.040Um, and I, I, I, of course I disagreed, but, uh, it bears discussion. You, you can't, you know, just brush it aside and, you know, it's, uh, on an aesthetic level because it's what you were talking about before. It's, you have this refinement that is celebrated, obviously. And, and you have it, you know, all senses are solicited.
00:16:14.080It's not only, uh, the images that are beautiful, but the way people speak, uh, you know, you, you can, you can imagine the flavors of their meals or, uh, you know, uh, the fragrances of, uh, you know, the ladies perfume and everything is, uh, refined and beautiful.
00:16:35.980And, and, and, you know, on the surface, uh, it's really a kind of longing of, you know, a bygone era when the elite was, uh, you know, had a kind of class and, you know, uh, was really deserved.
00:16:55.060And, uh, when you compare it to Bush or Sarkozy, it's, you don't have the same feeling, obviously. But, um, you know, I, I suggested the, the title for the podcast. Something is rotten in the state of Berlin.
00:17:09.620It could be England's reference, of course, to Hamlet and Denmark. And because if you scratch the surface, you find much more unpleasant things about, uh, Europe at the time about aristocracy, of course.
00:17:25.320And it's no wonder then that the, the society where, um, you know, it's, the scene takes place. Uh, so, um, it begins during the seven years war. So, uh, which began in 1756 and it's, it ends just when the French revolution has started.
00:17:47.680Yeah. Um, and, or, or just before it starts. And during that, there is the American independence war. So it's exactly the time when, uh, the European aristocracy was collapsing and still you have this magnificence and even bravery in Jews or war or other situations where people defend their honor.
00:18:12.800But all this, uh, you know, this refinement is, is just concealing the fact that, uh, society is, uh, maybe reverting to a more brutal stage.
00:18:30.060It would be an interpretation, but another one would be that simply, uh, the ruling class is no longer legitimate because it doesn't fight because it's, it has become effeminate.
00:18:41.560And, and, and that people like Berlin are just, you know, foreshadowing the, you know, later triumph of the bourgeoisie. So, you know, we have many things to discuss here, but I don't think it celebrates European aristocracy, but rather that it, you know, say that beneath this veneer, you have, you know, um, violence and, and all this refinement is just,
00:19:20.540Yeah, no, I, I, when, when you said that, I was actually imagining, um, Barry Lyndon punching Lord Bullington almost in, in an ape length fashion where he's slamming the skull with his, uh, with the, the, I, with the, um, the bone.
00:19:34.660I, I, I think, uh, uh, Kubrick is one who would probably reference some earlier films and almost create this universe, you know, where things kind of have their own logic.
00:19:46.580I mean, I was, when, when you were saying that, I was, I was thinking of one of the speeches by Lord Windover, and, um, if that's his right name.
00:19:54.440But it's, it's basically someone who's this stuffy, pompous, uh, person who, um, whom Barry goes to once he decides that he wants to have a peerage.
00:20:04.620And he wants to basically secure his fortune with a title.
00:21:20.980And they just need to get their heads separated from their bodies, which didn't happen in England, actually.
00:21:26.800But yeah, I've spoken like a true Frenchman.
00:21:28.480Yeah, no, it's, uh, and, and, you know, I was thinking about that, that scene of, in terms of like violence and formality in the aristocrats, um, where there's, there are these parallel scenes in, in, in Barry Lyndon.
00:21:44.060I mean, one of them is the fight that he has with Mr. Tool, who's a, is a kind of big buffoon kind of guy.
00:21:50.280But it, but it, even there, it's formalized, you know, they're, they're in a ring.
00:21:55.240And actually, I, I've tried to, you know, bring my friends, my best friends to consider it.
00:22:04.460But, you know, I interpreted it, uh, when I saw it first, maybe it was just after philosophy class.
00:22:11.480But, you know, this Hegel theme, um, about the master versus slave diurectic, because, uh, you can't, you know, help imagining what happens to the red-birded guy.
00:22:30.180Which is, again, that, that last name is clearly not a coincidence.
00:22:33.680Yeah, and because if Barry Lyndon is, you know, uh, vanquished by this guy, he will be humiliated and you can't help, you know, uh, just before they were fighting, uh, you know, except one friend who was advising him, you know, to respond, um, all the other soldiers were laughing at him.
00:23:00.460So, you can just imagine that Tool becomes, you know, kind of underdog of the troop or something like that.
00:23:08.880And it's really because Barry Lyndon is more, is more fit to fight, but it's also because he, he doesn't want to become the slave of the troop.
00:23:17.940And, you know, it's, maybe I, I over, over, interpret.
00:23:24.660And, and, you know, and again, to go back, um, uh, we can circle back around to what I was talking about with the aristocrats, but, um, but I think we're, you know, again, all these themes are kind of interwoven, so it's, it's proper to talk about them at the same time.
00:23:37.580But, yeah, I mean, Barry, uh, despite the fact that he is kind of an anti-hero, despite the fact that you're, you're not really supposed to look on him as, as a virtuous, admirable person, uh, nevertheless, uh, Barry, you know, as this kind of a country Irish upstart, there, there's a lot about him that, that really is truly heroic.
00:24:01.320And, you know, with, um, when you, he is, and one of those aspects is that he is willing to face death.
00:24:07.480He's willing to look it in the face and risk his life in order to maintain his honor.
00:24:12.020And he does, he does that with Mr. Tool, but, you know, that guy, I mean, who wants to get in a fight with a guy who's, you know, 300 pounds and 6'5".
00:24:18.780I mean, it's, you know, it's not, it's pretty intimidating.
00:24:24.580Yeah, with Captain Quinn in the very first duel, you know, you have all these Irish people who are kind of, um, you know,
00:24:31.320you know, you know, kind of wily, they are kind of hobbits, but they're also kind of, kind of wily little, uh, grasping hobbits, uh, where they're kind of like, Oh, Captain Quinn, let's marry off our sister.
00:24:45.520And then Captain Quinn can pay off our mortgage.
00:24:48.800Basically what they're, you know, we'll get 1500 a year.
00:24:51.800That's he's, I think at one point he said he is 1500 a year.
00:24:55.380So it's like this equation of this man with getting money.
00:25:00.100Actually, Captain Quinn often reminds them that.
00:26:50.400He has to flee because even if he had really killed him, uh, you know, killing an officer in, especially in wartime, he would be, um, actually, if, if, if he had been caught by the police, he would be killed.
00:27:16.160So, again, I, I think in this weird way, I think before we, we started the podcast, John, you mentioned that, um, William Thackeray's Barry Lyndon was one of the first antiheroes.
00:27:28.400That's, that's what I read, that in the history of English literature, anyway, he's considered the first antihero, uh, that, you know, there, there, there, it was something new in English literature at that time that he introduced.
00:27:44.000In the, the film is very different from the book.
00:27:47.620Uh, and it, you know, obviously in the film, I think Barry's somewhat more sympathetic, but, uh, yeah, but he is considered the first antihero.
00:27:56.360But in a way, in this very Kubrickian way, I think it, it's almost like the antihero becomes the hero.
00:28:01.300I mean, it's similar to Joker in Full Metal Jacket, you know, Joker almost becomes a warrior and, and a hero at the end of the film.
00:28:09.160And, um, uh, you know, it's, I, I think, you know, when you think about it, to go back to an earlier theme, before we circle back to the aristocrats, to go back to an earlier theme of, of like, how do you access the past?
00:28:21.020I think Kubrick is saying that you, you can't, like, there's, this isn't a reproduction or, or a reenactment of the past, because that, that, that's impossible.
00:28:31.960Like, we're, we're, you, you can't, you know, it's like some of these conservatives, paleo-conservatives, something, who, who have some fantasy about returning to the Middle Ages or something and just becoming a nice little peasant.
00:28:43.180Or maybe they imagine themselves as a king or something.
00:28:46.000There's something, there's a kind of silly Dungeons and Dragons-like quality to that.
00:28:51.180That, that's just, that's never going to happen.
00:29:27.580I mean, you, you have to go through the NASA lens.
00:29:29.560But also, you have to go through William Thackeray.
00:29:32.200William Thackeray is a mid-19th century novelist who is, in a way, satiring the, you know, early romances of, of something like Goethe's, um, uh, you know, uh, the suffering of young Werther.
00:29:45.960You know, the, you know, the Die Leiden des Jungen Werther's.
00:29:49.720Uh, these, these hyper-romantic, you know, Sturm und Drang, kind of, uh, you know, a young man who, a building's Roman, a young man discovering his feelings and passions.
00:29:59.660And he, in a deeply authentic and, and, uh, forthright type of novel, you know, he's satirizing that and saying that, no, look, it's all about sex and people are dissembling and playing games and things like that.
00:30:13.020So, you know, in order to access that past, you've got to go through these filters.
00:30:20.960And, but, but it's almost through, through these windows, you can start to glimpse the past and, and, and, and get it, it, it's something true.
00:30:29.660But anyway, uh, to circle back around to the aristocrats, I, I think what was interesting about like that scene where Barry Lyndon attacks Lord Bullington in the, the, you know, basically just to remind our listeners, um, this is the scene where it's after Barry has whipped Lord Bullington multiple times, uh, and six times as a, as a, as a young man as well, not just as a child.
00:30:59.660And, um, and, um, and Lord Bullington, there, there's a concert going on and Lady Lyndon is playing the harpsichord and the horrible, uh, Minister Runt is, uh, playing the caronet.
00:31:13.300We can talk about him a little bit later.
00:31:14.400But I think what's, what's interesting about that scene is, you know, Lord Bullington comes in and in, in the most theatrical manner possible, he insults Barry Lyndon.
00:32:22.280Like they want to, they, they'll, they'll send an army over to fight the American rebels or they'll, they'll scheme in order to destroy their, their rival.
00:32:31.180Or, you know, they, they, they're, they're aware though faintly that their titles and peerages are ultimately derived from the fact of someone acquired them by force of arms.
00:32:42.480And so they're, they're kind of like, they, but they, they have to cover up violence with all these layers of formality and, and ornament and so on and so forth.
00:32:52.040And, but it's almost like Barry Lyndon who, who forthrightly presents it as like, okay, you want to fight?
00:33:12.820I just think that that was such a, that was such a powerful scene.
00:33:15.360But anyway, I've been talking too much.
00:33:17.060You guys should jump in, um, on, on that theme or, or some of these other things.
00:33:22.160Well, I think that there's definitely, you know, we were talking about this before we started recording, uh, you know, about, well, and also earlier in this talk about the, the duality, you know, Kubrick never says just one thing.
00:33:44.800It certainly is, you know, better than, than most of what we have today.
00:33:49.160But, you know, at the same time, there's this, this obvious degeneracy.
00:33:53.500It's, it's something, you know, with traditionalists often, I find, you know, that, uh, they, they take the, you know, the Evel and Ganon said, you know, the only valid form of government is monarchy.
00:34:05.620Uh, they kind of take this too far in saying that, well, you know, the French revolution was bad because, you know, they overthrew the monarchy and everything.
00:34:12.540But I, I was never able to come around to that view because we have to say that, you know, the monarchies at that time in Europe, I mean, they really were very corrupt and, and obviously degenerating.
00:34:23.460And, you know, maybe in some, I mean, I'm not saying that I think the French revolution was all great, but at the same time, maybe it was necessary, you know, in order to sort of renew, renew things.
00:34:33.880Yeah, actually, it's, it reminds me of Bain, you know, he's evil, but he's necessary evil.
00:34:40.720And, uh, it's, it's maybe what, uh, France, the French revolution was.
00:34:45.780And, uh, I think I'm reminded of, uh, yeah, an article of, um, uh, at Occidental Dysentry, uh, all jokes aside, it was by our friend, uh, Gregory Hood.
00:35:02.220And, uh, it was about the French revolution, actually.
00:35:06.200And he said that he would take, um, what, you know, because Napoleon was, uh, obviously, uh, born of the revolution.
00:35:16.560He was just, uh, a Corsican upstart, uh, at the beginning of it.
00:35:20.900And that he would take the French revolution and what followed, uh, you know, uh, against, uh, the French monarchy just before that, anytime.
00:35:34.000Uh, because it was corrupt, but also, uh, you know, sometimes these, uh, right-wing reactionaries are, you know, fantasizing a kind of rootedness of the aristocracy or things like that.
00:35:52.100You know, uh, people were, aristocrats were close to their people and really caring about their land and tradition.
00:35:58.260And it may be right for this, you know, the, the little aristocracy, but for the great lords and dukes and counts, uh, the people are, and the land they had were just tokens.
00:36:13.740You know, they could exchange at some treaty or, so actually, uh, the French revolution and what followed next in the first half of the 19th century, um, the European people discovered things like identity, nationhood, um, they rediscovered tradition, actually, because, uh, Catholicism in Catholic countries had degenerated.
00:36:41.860And the 19th century was a very Catholic, uh, century, uh, century.
00:36:46.500So I'm not Catholic, but even from a Christian standpoint, uh, it might be argued that the French revolution was a kind of, um, you know, a necessary stage, uh, for tradition, uh, good things to, you know, to emerge again.
00:37:24.360Yeah, he, maybe, yeah, you could say that.
00:37:26.280Yeah, and, and also for, for Barry being this pretender or this, uh, dissembler, con artist, you know, so, I mean, I think in a way that, that is a misunderstanding of him.
00:37:37.380I mean, he's, he's a very passive person.
00:37:39.480I mean, things, things happen to Barry much more than he makes them happen.
00:37:45.520Uh, you know, he, he, he just ends up with the, you know, Chevalier de Babari and he just can't, he, he ends up and he's like, oh, he's an iron.
00:37:54.040That's the way he meets his wife, actually.
00:37:55.920Yeah, that's the way he meets his wife.
00:37:56.980He's just, uh, he's just assisting, uh, Chevalier de Babari at, uh, the card game.
00:38:02.820Yeah, and he's in a way a passive receiver of his wife's affection.
00:38:06.960And it's not like he really seduced Lady Lyndon.
00:38:10.420Lady, Lady Lyndon was eyeing him at the card table.
00:38:15.140And he, he walked out in an almost like a ballet-like manner, kind of, you know, approaches her very slowly, stylized.
00:38:22.560And, and then she, she almost kisses him.
00:38:24.780I mean, it's a, he, he, things happen to him.
00:38:27.000I mean, with the Chevalier de Babari, he, he goes and he meets him and he can't help himself.
00:38:31.120It's like, oh, I haven't seen a real, I've been in the Prussian army for years, seven years, in fact, you know, um, in this war.
00:38:39.100And, uh, you know, I finally found someone from the old country and, and, oh, and you have such as wonderful clothes.
00:38:45.100I, I'm gonna, I'm gonna weep in front of you.
00:38:47.240He's, Barry is a deeply, for, for being a con artist, Barry is a deeply honest person and, and an authentic and genuine person.
00:38:55.960And, you know, he, things just kind of, kind of happened to him.
00:38:59.720But the title of the original novel was The Luck of Barry Lyndon, which I think is interesting.
00:39:07.780And to, to go back to what Roman was saying is that I, I think Barry himself is, is kind of like, he, and to, and to go back to what you said too, John, Barry is kind of caught in between all these things.
00:39:20.300Like, he's, he's, he's too soon, he, he's, he's, but, but he's too late at the same time.
00:39:26.940Like, he, he, he has a sense of honor, but then, you know, he, he almost can't help himself as well to, you know, when, when a peer, a peerage is hanging off the low-hanging fruit on the tree, he's gonna grab it.
00:39:39.600Or when Lady Lyndon is there, he's gonna go grab it.
00:39:42.960But, and, and he's, you know, he's obviously, he's not very, he's not deep and he's not wise, but, but he is, he's clearly smart and he's, he's very good looking and he's brave.
00:39:54.260And, and, and he, he kind of can't help himself.
00:39:57.280He's going to play the game of this 18th century.
00:40:08.000You know, you know, it's because in, uh, American Psycho, you have this scene in the taxi, right?
00:40:15.800He says his girlfriend, I just want to fit in.
00:40:18.540And it's actually just what Barry Lyndon wants to do.
00:40:22.700He wants to get a peerage when, in England, it kept being useful.
00:40:27.260But, uh, it's, you know, in seeing the big picture, wanting to, you know, be part of an aristocracy that was about to collapse is kind of ridiculous.
00:40:40.460And he, he's not a visionary, obviously.
00:40:43.380No, no, he's, he's definitely not that.
00:40:45.700He's not, um, he doesn't have a very, he's not a man of thought, obviously.
00:40:53.820But, uh, he doesn't really have, uh, you know, a reflection on, on things that happen to him.
00:42:25.580And I, I actually mean that very, I mean that seriously when I say, you know, I, when I agree with you.
00:42:33.440What I mean by, that is the, what I mean by that is that, you know, on, on Twitter or Facebook, the way you express yourself, and in a way you can do it very concisely, is to use sarcasm.
00:42:53.620And so you say, oh, that's really classy of him.
00:42:55.680The word classy is almost never used in a real way.
00:43:00.000Classy is almost always ironical or, or something.
00:43:04.000Like, you know, we, it's almost like people will tweet and basically every single thing they said is actually the opposite of what they said.
00:43:26.100But also maybe what I was thinking about as well, I, I, when, when Ramon mentioned the, the dark night rises where a cat woman whispers to Bruce Wayne, she says, you know, there's a storm coming.
00:43:39.400You're not going to be able to live in this world.
00:43:41.280And I almost, in a way we have a kind of 18th century society today.
00:43:45.140I mean, you, if you, if you, if you think about the kind of decadent whites who are, you know, IT consultants or, you know, work doing computerized trading for some firm or whatever.
00:43:57.400And they kind of, in a way they're, they're, they're, they're living in a, in a false world.
00:44:03.100Like they're not, they're getting a lot of money, but they don't seem to be doing labor.
00:44:07.520They're kind of, there's a lot of luck certainly involved with their, their, their, their, their status.
00:44:13.220They, they might not quite have titles, but they have similar things.
00:44:16.360Like I'm, I'm a creative director for a Silicon Valley startup or something, you know.
00:44:21.220You know, they, they kind of have titles in a way and, and there, there, there's, there's a luck and then, and then they go and they kind of treat things ironically and they'll, they'll like indulge in, in silly, you know, scandals of the day, you know, like they'll, they'll, they'll tweet about, you know, a police officer brutalized a man.
00:44:40.580And, you know, again, whether, whether he did or not, the, the whole point is, you know, they're, they're, they're, they're saying, oh, I'm on the side of the, the good multicultural people.
00:44:50.120Cause I, I care about this man who was beaten up and killed by cops or something, you know, and it's just this, this silliness, you know, this, this not, this lack of seriousness.
00:44:59.680And, you know, it, you can almost envision all of these people just being, you know, rounded up by, you know, mad, angry people.
00:45:10.580Who knows Mexicans or blacks or something, and just, you know, totally done away with French revolutionary style, just because they're, they're, they're, they're benefiting from all, they have all this wealth, they're benefiting from the world, but then they don't really want to protect it.
00:45:24.060They're certain, you know, they can't even, they can't even speak to you in a non-ironic fashion.
00:45:28.680They certainly can't face death and look death in its eyes.
00:45:33.300You know, they receive fire, receive fire.
00:45:35.640I mean, they're going to, they're going to be running to get back to the movie.
00:45:39.680Yeah, like, you know, if you challenge them, if they, if they, you know, steal your love or something, and you challenge them to do a duel, they're like, what are you even talking about?
00:46:07.920I, I think maybe we're, we're closer to live, we, we kind of live in the age of, of Linden.
00:46:14.200Yeah, it's not an exact parallel, but I think you're right.
00:46:16.860I mean, it's, it's an aristocracy now that's based solely on money rather than, you know, these other things that were important in the 18th century.
00:46:23.900But it's, it's no less of an aristocracy and you still have to do all the right, that you'll say all the right things and do all the right things and act a certain way to get into it.
00:46:33.820Uh, so yeah, I, I think the parallels are definitely there and, uh, on fiat money, uh, you know, it's no longer, uh, it's a 19th century capitalists who, who was owning something, uh, a factory or land or, you know, a fabric or something that's, or gold, of course.
00:46:53.980And since, you know, um, uh, Gregory Hood has often quoted him and, uh, James Burnham should certainly be revisited, but not from the Leadership Institute standpoint.
00:47:22.100And digital money and, and the other day you have nothing.
00:47:25.780And, uh, and that's why you have to be very conformist, you know, you can't, um, you could have in the 19th century bourgeoisie, you could have very free spirits, free minds.
00:47:39.120Uh, because once you got rich, you could remain rich, uh, out of, you know, your land and, you know, your tenants paying you, uh, your, your customers buying from your factory.
00:47:52.100But today, if you're, you know, if you mess up, if you mess with, uh, you, you know, uh, the PC cannons of our time, you can have serious problems.
00:48:04.360Even if you're wealthy, because we're inflation and with, uh, all the ways that the government or, um, you know, the financial institutions can access your money.
00:48:18.720You, you, you, you can't really get away with it if you, um, you know, even if you're really, really wealthy, you, you can't, uh, you can't do what you want of it.
00:48:30.980And that explains partly why you can, you can have, uh, billionaire traders, uh, you know, rooting for far left, far left causes because their money isn't safe.
00:48:44.660I mean, imagine if, um, imagine if Zuckerberg, uh, for whatever reason said, oh yeah, you know, I, I think there actually are significant IQ differences between races or something.
00:48:57.040Like, he, like, like, like, like, literally would go from a billionaire to zero in, in like minutes.
00:49:36.920It's not, it's not like he owns herds of cattle and has peasants working his land where he could say, you know, I can stand for myself.
00:49:44.080Uh, imagine if, uh, if Bill Gates was, instead of, uh, you know, uh, flooding Africa with billions, uh, just gave it to NPI.
00:49:55.100In a matter of maybe days or hours or minutes, uh, he would be, uh, you know, all his more, most faithful, uh, you know, collaborators would tweet against him and there would be press releases and maybe, or, yes, of course, you, you would have, uh, opinion pulse and he would be a dead man.
00:50:20.540Just the fact that the language he used, all of his former follows would begin tweeting against him.
00:50:26.240Like, it was something that, like, expresses the, just silliness of, of the world.
00:50:33.080We live in, uh, Bill Gates should do that and I, I would be, um, I'm a long time Mac user, but if he wants to, uh, give me his billions, uh, we, we could make an arrangement.
00:50:45.240We could, I could put my pride aside for that one.
00:50:47.940Um, but, uh, okay, well, we're, uh, what else should we pick up?
00:50:53.500We were talking about Barley and then a dozen minutes ago.
00:50:57.520Well, we didn't touch on the, you know, the very last, you know, the epilogue with, you know, they are all, you know, we talked about that before, but, uh.
00:51:19.180Uh, but of course it's also a reference to, uh, 1789, you know, which is the date on the, you know, this, I guess it's sort of an 18th century check that's being written out to Barry, uh, you know, sort of his.
00:51:34.760And, uh, you know, referring to the French revolution that, you know, all the, you know, this system that all these people are part of is crumbling and, you know, soon they're going to be, you know, no different considered no different from anybody else.
00:51:49.400And I, I think Richard, you were saying something before about how, uh, you know, this idea of equality is, you know, another way of looking at it is that like, you know, all this refinement and everything is, is going to go away so that, you know, we can have Walmarts.
00:52:05.840And, uh, yeah, I, I think it's both or, or all three.
00:52:10.500I mean, I, that, that's what I think is so interesting about, about Kubrick.
00:52:14.480And that's why I think, I, I kind of, I, I think we should talk about him and explore his films is because there's so many layers and, um, yeah, I mean, there is the, the Hamlet like layer of poor Uric's skull, like this idea that, you know, a peasant or a, or a king, we're all the same.
00:52:30.660We're, we're dust, we're bones at the end of it.
00:52:34.100Um, and, and, and I think he's also clearly referring to the, you know, 1789 and, and, and subsequent revolutions.
00:52:41.880Uh, but, you know, in another way, I think, you know, this goes back to that idea of like the, the multiple layers to the film and, and, you know, this is a Thackeray novel.
00:52:51.420And if you look at the, uh, the narrator to, to the film, Barry Lyndon, he, he has a Thackeray like quality.
00:52:59.860Although, uh, I just learned from you that before we, uh, started recording that, that actually the, the, the narrator, the narrator's lines are not from the book.
00:53:11.380Because the, the book is actually written in the first person from Barry's point of view, uh, which actually is another significant difference because he's kind of an unreliable narrator.
00:53:22.620And you can tell that like he exaggerates things and, and alters the truth so that, that kind of element is missing from the film because you're seeing everything objectively.
00:53:31.000But the narrator also doesn't get it, I think, you know, the, the narrator, I, I think from a, from a 19th century standpoint almost doesn't get it.
00:53:40.680What I was going to say, I'll, I'll, I'll talk about that, but, but I'll, I'll circle back real quickly to the, they're all equal now.
00:53:46.300Uh, the, my sense of the narrator was almost like he is some kind of, uh, uh, uh, Christian libertarian who might write for lewrockwell.com or something.
00:53:58.320He's like, uh, uh, uh, oh, look at this, the, this is the murderous work of these aristocrats.
00:54:06.080Uh, you know, they, they, they're, they're so terrible.
00:54:08.520And, and there was actually one, one scene where I think the narrator really proved that he was unreliable is that he, um, it was when Barry is, um, uh, uh, has the pretense of being an officer.
00:54:21.060He steals an officer's clothing and he goes and he, uh, uh, he, he goes and meets this, uh, leech, uh, leech, well, it sounds like leechin, but I think it's leechin, who's a young, a German girl with a young, you know, boy, a young child.
00:54:34.160And her husband's away and they, uh, they go and have a, uh, a romance.
00:54:40.420Um, but, you know, at the end of that, you know, Barry goes in and I think in a way he finds the love that he was searching for with Nora.
00:54:48.920You know, he, um, he goes and he has an honest romance that, that's sexual, but, but also very honest and, and loving, uh, with this, you know, although fleeting with this woman.
00:55:18.880And it's actually kind of interesting because he, you know, Barry Lyndon has learned to speak German, but he almost wants to speak English.
00:55:25.840He speaks German better than Lieschen speaks English, but he almost wants to speak English, Irish English with her so that he can almost re-experience his love with, with Nora, I think.
00:55:37.820Uh, but anyway, at the end of that, when they're departing, um, he, and they're speaking German, actually.
00:55:43.380He says, Auf Wiedersehen, and he says, uh, you know, Auf Wiedersehen Lieschen.
00:55:46.660And then she says, Auf Wiedersehen Redmond.
00:55:49.380And what that indicates is that, you know, in their 48-hour romance, or how long it was, uh, Barry was actually honest with her.
00:55:58.400And he, he told her that he was not, um, Jonathan Fekium, or, or what is his name?
00:57:07.640He's a, he's a kind of Christian libertarian who, who, who kind of thinks that all these aristocrats are all evil, the state is evil or something.
00:57:15.280And, um, uh, and then, you know, but, but again, I think that, that misses the fact that, you know, Kubrick does admire the achievements of the 18th century.
00:57:25.240You know, it, it, it, warts and all, it, it, it, it is a kind of higher civilization.
00:57:30.740There, there was still, there was a sense of decorum and formality and, and meaning that I, I think he still takes seriously.
00:57:38.480Um, and so, you know, you kind of miss that.
00:57:41.040And, and again, this, this goes back to, guy, I'm, I'm, I'm rambling, but I think that, that, that, that works for this film because there's so many different meanings.
00:57:48.680But it also goes back to the fact that Barry Lyndon, despite the fact that he's a con artist, is very honest.
00:58:45.160I did want to point out, too, since we were talking about the narrator, there was something I, this last time that I watched it that I'd never picked up before, is that there's an interesting thing when, after Barry comes in and kind of confronts Lord Bullingdon, I mean, the, the elder.
00:59:06.800And he, he, uh, you know, he starts to sort of go into having a heart attack or something that the narrator, uh, launches into this long sort of obituary for him.
00:59:18.180And there's a historical inaccuracy in it, actually.
00:59:56.220I, I, I was wondering what he's trying to communicate there, that maybe it's like, uh, you know, he is suggesting that, like, you know, his perspective and the narrator's aren't the same.
01:00:22.760But it's almost like that gives Kubrick plausible deniability, you know, as well.
01:00:28.060Like, it, you know, but no, I, I think, you know, he, Kubrick is saying something very different
01:00:34.180than the superficial meaning of the final title card and the kind of, you know, ironical moralisms of the narrator.
01:00:45.860You know, although the narrator had some good lines, you know, you would need a philosopher and a historian to determine the causes of the Seven Years' War.
01:00:58.940But when I watched it the first time and all the times afterwards, um, what really struck me is this line of the narrator when he says, I'm not sure of the, the exact wording, but maybe you have it, Richard.
01:01:12.680Uh, when he says that, uh, Redmond Barry is the kind of guy that can forcefully win a fortune, but, uh, cannot keep it.
01:01:21.980And actually the story is divided in what would maybe a little simply, uh, summed up as, uh, the rise and fall of Barry Lyndon.
01:01:33.820And, uh, but in the second part, uh, and it's strictly divided, like, uh, actually like, uh, a play.
01:01:44.240Um, what strikes me is that, uh, it's even if everything is beautiful and, uh, as a life he has is what many people to this day dream of.
01:01:58.720I don't, but, uh, many people we know, uh, dream of, and it's really boring.
01:02:05.680I mean, so there's this birthday party with, uh, you know, uh, the magician and you have, uh, all these nice horses and, uh, ballet and concerts, but it's utterly boring, especially for a man who knew war and who could, you know, uh, rub elbows with powerful figures.
01:03:04.280And, um, uh, of course I'm slightly overreading because I, I don't think, I'm not sure at least that Kubrick wants to say that, uh, you know, boredom is, uh, you know, boredom is what is killing the West today.
01:03:23.420As it was, uh, of the European aristocracy in the 18th century, but that's what we are witnessing anyway.
01:03:30.020You know, um, people don't really have, they don't have a higher goal, but even in their day to day life, there is plenty of boredom.
01:03:39.680And, and maybe the worst thing is that before it was possible to accept it, you know, in a simple society, uh, like, uh, an agrarian society, boredom was maybe part of life when, you know, you have to wait for the harvest because you have sown and you have to wait for it.
01:04:01.440But now we don't accept it and we are dying of it or maybe not we, but, uh, the Western civilization.
01:04:09.500We're all kind of like Lady Lyndon in a way, you know, we, um, you know, who, you know, who is this passionless, she has certain desires and, and, and lust, but, but she's a very passionless and, and passive person.
01:04:24.980Well, the implication is that Barry kind of forces her to be though.
01:04:31.000In the way, you know, in the narrative of the film, remember it says that the narrator says with kind of a sarcastic tone about how Barry thought it more proper for her to withdraw from the cares of the world.
01:04:42.140But again, I don't, I don't trust the narrator.
01:04:45.740He also says that, you know, Lady Lyndon became to Barry like a, a puppy dog or a furniture or something.
01:04:52.240But I, I actually, I, I think the narrator is unreliable.
01:04:55.460I, I think that Barry actually is loyal to her.
01:04:59.500I think you can see that in, you know, the fact that he stops, he stops cheating on her.
01:05:16.520I mean, there, there's a, a really amazing scene.
01:05:18.540And I, I think I might've mentioned this where she's lying in a tub and he has that, you know, Kubrick that, you know, characteristic fate or, or, or, uh, where he's drawing the camera away and the, the, you know, kind of thing.
01:05:31.140And she's sitting in the tub in this languid, passionless, you know, almost asleep fashion.
01:05:38.440And Barry comes over and he apologizes to her.
01:05:42.120And then he bends down and kisses her.
01:05:43.620Much like Nora bent down and kissed him in the, the first scene of the movie.
01:05:48.460Um, there, there's a kind of, there's a way that he's actually loyal to Lady Lyndon.
01:05:52.620But, but to go back to what I was saying before, I, I think Lady Lyndon is kind of, uh, you know, an allegory for the West in the sense that she, she has certain desires like that are normal and healthy.
01:06:04.820Um, but she, she's kind of playing a game she doesn't really understand.
01:06:08.240You know, she, she, she's flirting with her eyes, you know, with Barry Lyndon and, uh, then he comes in and kind of ruins her fortune.
01:06:16.300Um, but, but she, you know, she, she becomes passionless.
01:06:20.480She, she, at one point, she, you know, uh, tries to commit suicide and goes through this, you know, uh, you know, uh, crazed, uh, uh, distressed, you know, period.
01:06:31.740Um, but, uh, but, uh, but, uh, you know, at the end of the day, she, her, she's spending all of her time writing checks and just, you know, diminishing her fortune by the day.
01:06:42.680It is, it is kind of an allegory for the West.
01:06:44.800There's, there's nothing there about writing checks and even the people, even the, a little like the West today, actually.
01:06:55.100I'm not talking about, um, public aid to the third world, but rather, uh, how we are indebted to our Chinese and Saudi and other, you know, uh, money.
01:07:09.500Uh, sorry, uh, where they're actually making, but yeah, actually it's because, uh, eventually, of course she stays wealthy, but, uh, her wealth is, uh, very significantly diminished by all the, the expenses that were made.
01:07:29.840And, uh, oh yeah, she doesn't, she doesn't even know what she's doing.
01:07:33.840I mean, she, at the end of the day, it's like you, you've, you need to maintain the certain lifestyle.
01:07:44.140But, but then you spend like 90% of your time, you know, with, with bankers and lawyers and, and, you know, writing checks and transferring funds.
01:07:51.840Um, I love that line about Barry spending all of his time corresponding with decorators and, and cooks.
01:08:00.760Well, it's, you know, it's, it's like the, the billionaire who he, he, he wants to, you know, who would be much happier if he only had a 30 grand a year or something.
01:08:09.600Because, you know, he, he's spent, you know, oh, I, now I have all this, I need to figure out how to invest all this stuff.
01:08:20.880But the problem, uh, and I agree of your interpretation, uh, of the narrator, the problem is at the root of the Western software, so to speak, uh, starting from humanism and the reformation.
01:08:35.620It's this idea that human life is, you know, its meaning is, and its value is, uh, measured by happiness, the level of happiness that you achieve.
01:08:50.820And I, I really feel, uh, you know, I, I'm not a happy person because I don't care about happiness.
01:08:59.180That's what I want to, to do is achieving something.
01:09:02.960And because someone with Down syndrome can be happy, you know, and, uh, Forrest Gump is happy.
01:09:09.520And, uh, I don't want to be Forrest Gump, uh, even if it's what we're expected to be as white males.
01:09:16.020Um, uh, and the problem is that the narrator, uh, for him, everything that matters is if people were happy or not.
01:09:25.660And it's the way he comments on, uh, you know, Barry Lyndon's destiny and Lady Lyndon's, uh, you know, suffering.
01:09:37.440Uh, if someone becomes a billionaire or a great statesman or a great artist and is unhappy with his life, it's fine.
01:09:46.980Uh, I, I mean, Kubrick, I, I don't think Kubrick was a happy person.
01:09:51.520Uh, I read, I read that he was, I read that he was a very, um, he was, uh, uh, kind of family man, you know, with, uh, because he was protecting his family and in, you know, his family's fear, he was maybe happy.
01:10:09.100But to create something and to go further and to go, you know, upward, you have to be unsatisfied with what you're doing.
01:10:18.000So that's some, the problem with Barry Lyndon's destiny is that he wants to achieve a kind of, you know, to create paradise on earth.
01:10:27.040And, of course, it's, uh, surest way to, you know, to die without a legacy and actually to, you know, a legacy in terms of genetic legacy and cultural legacy.
01:10:42.780He doesn't leave anything be, you know, after him.
01:10:46.260So, and the problem is happiness, the quest for happiness, which is pointless, in my opinion.
01:10:54.400I, I, I agree that, that happiness is, is overrated.
01:10:59.860There's, there's something, uh, you don't want to become, you don't want to become satisfied or, or, or fat.
01:11:05.900If you can actually be satisfied with, by something that you buy, that there, there's some, there's, there's a problem with you.
01:11:12.540I, I wouldn't, you know, I'm not, I don't, I don't want to deny the, you know, uh, some satisfaction with having a good meal or buying some new coat or something.
01:11:22.920But, uh, but if, if that is, it's joy more than happiness.
01:11:29.820And actually it's an illusion because it's the only happy persons I, I, I met were stupid people.
01:11:37.200Or the clever people I met were unhappy because even if they were successful, successful is not the same thing as happy.
01:11:44.840They, they wanted to do more and, you know, uh, especially people who are more intellectual, but even people who were, you know, like, uh, starting companies and, you know, making good money of it and creating things for people.
01:12:01.600So they, they, they were never satisfied with, they wanted more.
01:12:06.720And so they were working harder to get it.
01:12:09.640They didn't tell themselves, Oh no, I've achieved what I wanted.
01:12:14.020I will just wait for, you know, for death, which is what happiness amounts to.
01:12:19.360Well, I have to say the only place I've been where a lot of people, you know, the majority of people seem to be happy was India.
01:12:26.480Ironically, I could, I could talk for quite a while for why I think that is, but yeah, I think it's, it's related to this idea that, you know, most people there have very little.
01:12:35.360And they don't, you know, really concern themselves with the future because, you know, very likely their future will be exactly like their present.
01:12:42.740So they don't, they don't really spend a lot of time, uh, uh, worrying about, uh, a lot of the things that bother us in the West.