RadixJournal - The Inevitable Empire

00:00:00.000 one of the uh one of the little things i stumbled on a while back that maybe of interest to some

00:00:05.420 people uh you've heard of the uh the lawyer alan dursovich right sure he's a he's a kind of hot

00:00:11.820 shot uh uh lawyer i think he does defamation cases and things like that but uh he's been

00:00:18.520 around for a long time and he's he's often on television a lot um and obviously alan dursovich

00:00:24.320 is you know is jewish um one of the little things i stumbled on i was uh i was writing a piece for

00:00:31.500 chronicles which ended up well i ended up basically saying i can't i basically just can't run this

00:00:40.160 piece because of the stuff i ran into one of the things i discovered is that literally for about

00:00:45.140 20 years alan dursovich would write an article in which he called pat pucannon a nazi i mean literally

00:00:54.040 you know four or five times a year he'd use his you know he had he had a long running column

00:00:59.500 he tried to get uh pucannon taken off air he tried so i mean he would he just he just attacked pucannon

00:01:06.100 a lot and called him an anti-semite and a fascist and all the rest of it one of the things i couldn't

00:01:12.920 help but notice is that his record on donald trump was quite different he had a literally the opposite

00:01:20.500 record of defending trump whenever he whenever really he had a chance and he represented him a

00:01:27.160 few times if you remember um it like he was the only lawyer his impeachment trial yes yeah he he uh

00:01:33.660 first impeachment one yeah he he represented and i thought well that's in that's in that made me wonder

00:01:39.280 actually because um back in 2000 if you remember trump was thinking about running

00:01:44.440 and it did make me wonder whether part of trumpism was to kind of kill the buchananism if you want um

00:01:57.120 uh paul gottfried seemed to think not but uh i mean what do you think uh i think so i mean look if

00:02:04.000 you go back this is the remarkable like story of trumpism which is just filled with ironies and

00:02:11.320 contradictions and so on but when he was running for the reform party so the reform party emerged um

00:02:18.680 and i it might very well be still around but it's a husk of its former self but it emerged with uh

00:02:25.040 ross perot's campaign in the 90s and ross perot was a really interesting figure he he ran against um

00:02:33.600 george herbert walker bush and bill clinton in 1992 and i can remember myself back in in those days

00:02:41.260 i mean i was quite young i guess i was um uh what was i 12 or 14 or something like that um just kind

00:02:49.320 of being instinctively enthusiastic about ross perot because he was going against the system he was

00:02:54.760 putting himself out there but it was a lot of doom and gloom uh uh deficit hawkery i guess um with you

00:03:02.560 know but he he was also against free trade um and and he was a man of the era right after the um

00:03:10.460 the fall of the soviet union along with pat buchanan who these are former cold warriors who are

00:03:16.340 basically saying come home america i mean that was the title uh literally of one of pat buchanan's

00:03:22.120 essays and the national interest of we did the cold war thing it's over we won now it's time to totally

00:03:28.860 rethink um the what what america is and um again he he kind of lost that argument as it were to

00:03:36.840 fukuyama or charles krauthammer talking about the unipolar world and and the the uh first iraq war

00:03:44.880 the second iraq war and onward america is an empire um and uh so anyway this thing existed which the reform

00:03:53.000 party that expressed a certain incoherent though viscerally powerful middle american rage

00:04:02.580 you could say you know like something is going wrong we don't quite know what it is but we need

00:04:10.560 some outsider to come in and fix it and you know i i i'm being a little bit sarcastic and depicting it

00:04:20.400 that way but but that that's also a real thing you know that that emotion um and it's a powerful one

00:04:27.220 and trump um got involved in the reform party because he's been he's been talking about running

00:04:31.980 for president since the late 80s i believe um he was involved in the reform party and he was he

00:04:38.820 himself was calling pat buchanan a nazi so pat buchanan ran in in 92 on the republican ticket he ran

00:04:45.820 again in 96 and then he ran this kind of even more hopeless campaign in 2000 he had a black female

00:04:52.780 running mate and that that that created the 2000 uh issue um of the hanging chads because all of these

00:05:02.240 uh uh all of these jews in like miami were voting for pat buchanan uh because of like the uh the

00:05:11.500 butterfly ballot it did all these just kind of funny things uh that come back and it is kind of amusing

00:05:17.820 that there was a ballot issue you know uh jews retiring former new york city jews living in

00:05:24.800 miami we're like i can't believe i voted for pap you can't it's kind of now of course richard that

00:05:31.780 is literally ronda sentence's base right that same group the same group yeah next generation yes

00:05:38.040 and uh so anyway he called trump in the 2000 was suggesting that oprah be his running mate to take

00:05:48.640 the reform party ticket and he was explicitly calling out buchanan as a nazi like we've got to

00:05:55.020 reform the reform party it shouldn't be about this and things like that and um yeah so and and and that

00:06:03.440 stuff's on the record i mean it's very real and he called i think he actually also said we need to get

00:06:09.500 rid of the buchanons and the dukes of the world and you notice if you if you fast forward to 2016

00:06:15.480 he claimed extremely implausibly that he had no idea who david duke is

00:06:20.980 even though he called him out by name a mere 15 years earlier and so there is this there is this kind

00:06:28.680 of interesting way in which trump is able to kind of like channel that energy which is very real

00:06:35.220 and but then but then kind of almost pacify it and play with it so i mean i think this is where

00:06:41.520 trump is so kind of contradictory and it is a kind of trump v trump you know effect uh where i mean

00:06:49.160 and someone in this group who might even be on this call articulated it really well he said isn't it

00:06:55.420 amazing that the most fearsome zionist and the most fearsome anti-semites vote for the same candidate

00:07:05.100 you know so david duke and alan dershowitz both voted for trump

00:07:11.180 and isn't that remarkable now that has something to do with the party structure of like you know big

00:07:17.820 tent two big tents you bring in lots of different people but i think it's actually deeper than that i i

00:07:23.900 think you could plausibly make an argument that you know it's it's like this this energy out there

00:07:31.920 which is incohate and incoherent this populist energy is out there and it can spill over into

00:07:38.660 certain directions many of them are it could spill over into anti-zionism it could spill over into

00:07:43.300 outright anti-semitism it could spill over into white nationalism it could kind of do all these things

00:07:48.160 and we we kind of need to like create a good channel for that for that inner you know that water

00:07:54.440 they you know water will just flow you can kind of like re-channel the river and flow it into something

00:08:00.620 else and i i think a really intelligent jew like alan dershowitz maybe grasped that and a a less

00:08:11.200 less intelligent jew like uh you know someone reading the new york times and things like that

00:08:16.680 sees trump as just this you know oh my gosh he this is literally hitler and you know blah blah blah

00:08:23.300 maybe someone like alan dershowitz is is a little bit smarter than many of his um contemporaries you know

00:08:29.780 um you know hardcore israeli nationalists um you know like the sort of people who'd vote for

00:08:36.380 netanyahu for example right they see i mean i guess at this point you might call it like populism

00:08:43.480 inc i'm thinking like salvini in italy le pen um you know all of them all of the all of the kind of

00:08:52.000 quote-unquote nationalists around the world they see them as their natural allies and you know i've had

00:08:58.860 the thought more than once um that i mean if i think of various figures from various scenes you

00:09:06.400 know there's that there's that canadian outlet um what's it called rebel media yeah um there was

00:09:13.620 tommy robinson in the uk who also strangely loved loved the nation of israel and i it did make me think

00:09:22.160 more than once that if you're if you're if you're a hardcore israeli nationalist you're probably seeing

00:09:30.180 globalism ultimately as as an enemy in the long run right um and and so from a certain point maybe

00:09:40.420 it's doomed you know regardless of that it you know it's gonna the season will pass yeah so i guess

00:09:47.220 what i'm saying is from a certain point of view for the fault line to be globalism versus nationalism

00:09:52.300 kind of will you know it kind of plays into their nationalism when you when you start to think of

00:09:58.980 israel and i don't know if uh we could use this maybe to segue into the other thing we were going

00:10:04.620 to talk about but in in a strange way like it israel is like a like a facsimile of like a 1930s

00:10:13.320 european nation state right which which had a short which really in the in the overall scheme of

00:10:20.040 history is a short-run phenomena like i mean literally from about 1850 till

00:10:25.280 the end of world 14 yeah yeah yeah um so yeah i mean that that is uh that is a thought i've had

00:10:34.020 more than once uh that um there's there's a kind of natural fault line there which which

00:10:40.440 maybe i mean makes more sense if you see a like a genuine split between the hollywood types and the

00:10:48.540 you know the hardcore israeli types but i don't know if mark has more uh kind of developed views

00:10:54.340 on on this sort of thing because i i don't spend a huge amount of time trying to pass it because

00:11:00.100 after a certain amount of time i just give up you know i i kind of uh it becomes opaque to me you know

00:11:06.800 so i i uh you know i saw i i tend to look at other things but uh yeah yeah jump in mark oh sure in

00:11:16.940 terms of what aspect um are you referring to well yeah the creation of caducean relationship between

00:11:23.640 nationalism and globalism that is supported by you know not even all israelis i i think we should be

00:11:31.500 specific here but but um lakud uh most prominently yeah no i mean well you know i think that there is

00:11:40.140 there is a line of course uh that they won't cross but i mean i think you know i think if we look at

00:11:46.980 um israel uh vis-a-vis ukraine in a kind of earnest way i think that probably the sentiment there is

00:11:55.740 it it's it's they've tried to be neutral right and i think the reason that they've tried to be

00:12:01.320 neutral is because of the the danger inherent to the situation right they don't want to antagonize

00:12:06.380 putin um because they don't want that to create conflicts in the middle east with syria or whatever

00:12:11.820 the case might be um so i think that they've been very cagey in their public face as it concerns that

00:12:19.080 war but if i had to imagine this sort of the larger sentiment is in favor of ukraine um and they have

00:12:26.220 shown some support to ukraine um they've sold them weapons um so they to the extent that they've shown

00:12:32.940 favor to either side they've shown favor to ukraine but they've been careful um but ukraine of course

00:12:38.240 uh you know is known famously for these nazi regimens that it has right uh the azob uh so how does that

00:12:46.800 work right how how is israel a country uh for jews supporting um a country that uh has these uh

00:12:54.760 ostensibly nazi regimens in the field but i i think what it is it's it relates to i mean i think that

00:13:01.520 they are very practical very utilitarian people and this is probably something that's kind of

00:13:06.840 imitable on some level i don't think that they i mean i think that those sort of those nazi regimens

00:13:12.940 are probably drawn from kind of white ghettos in ukraine effectively so they were basically

00:13:18.240 skinheads uh on some level and you know they're not all skinheads obviously uh but they're tapping

00:13:25.340 into some a kind of culture there that is martial and that is venerating you know adolf hitler or

00:13:31.880 whatever the case may be um in the nazi regime and they're they're exploiting that instinct among a

00:13:38.060 kind of lower class group just to be frank um and kind of um you know channeling that energy

00:13:45.160 in a direction that's useful for them but they don't you know there's no reason that they should

00:13:50.060 they would be feel threatened by you know basically a group that again has been basically harvested from

00:13:57.720 white ghettos uh it's not so it's not a group that would otherwise without the sort of organization

00:14:03.240 of the ukrainian government it's it's not a group that would otherwise be threatening or dangerous to

00:14:08.180 them so they're very um you know they're very intelligent in this regard um i think that at

00:14:13.960 when uh something like white nationalism reaches a certain level though it's not something that they

00:14:19.180 can kind of it's not something that can be played with as it were right um the famous example being

00:14:25.380 national socialism in germany right so that that that was a problem uh that had to be dealt with

00:14:32.420 on a global level um but i did play with it early on there there was a kind of transfer agreement and

00:14:39.880 yeah and there were there were jews for it there were jews for hitler right it's uh you know we agree

00:14:45.640 you know jews need to leave you know germany i mean and and this gets to the um like a fundamental

00:14:51.320 contradiction within um zionism itself which it on one level it kind of reinforces nationalism it is

00:15:00.320 basically you know at its origins 19th century origins it is a declaration that we cannot

00:15:05.900 assimilate it's never going to work and we need to get out of here and uh with hertzel and so on these

00:15:12.940 are you know highly sophisticated secular atheists um who are making this type of argument um and it and

00:15:22.620 it and it kind of works there there's also a lot of very religious protestants who wanted to

00:15:28.720 you know reenact the bible basically who supported science there's just a lot of kind of countervailing

00:15:34.680 and in seemingly contradictory winds that are all kind of blowing into

00:15:40.700 the this the creating a kind of tornado or vortex in in in palestine

00:15:46.540 yeah i was i was also i mean one of just to go back to ukraine at a moment one of the things i've

00:15:54.620 been kind of interested in is the extent to which the american empire will

00:16:01.860 kind of have an allowable nationalism on its frontiers um and uh the case i would point to is

00:16:11.560 actually in poland do you remember when trump gave that speech in poland and everybody was like oh i

00:16:16.760 can't believe you know trump is speaking to the like the evil right-wingers in poland and so on

00:16:23.460 well if you notice all of that talk has gone away because it it's actually quite useful to have

00:16:28.420 a nationalist oriented poland against the russians right so i do wonder how much it's a deliberate

00:16:35.960 strategy to to kind of allow these nationalisms on the frontier because it's uh it's controlled

00:16:43.420 it's contained it's within the it's within their sphere of influence if you want so yeah i mean

00:16:48.900 definitely remember when he gave that speech i believe it was in 2017 and that coincided with

00:16:54.980 the uh funding and implementation of missile systems uh defense i think defensive but you know uh

00:17:02.780 basically pointed at russia on the frontier and trump gave a blood and soil speech about you know

00:17:10.520 we love poland you know christians nations like this is what we're about you know kind of thing

00:17:16.900 and um so yeah i mean i i think your your instinct is absolutely right you you kind of it's it's not

00:17:25.100 strategically effective to just completely suppress something that is real and and it you know a lot

00:17:32.840 of nationalism is kind of incoherent and you know emotional you know i i mean that that's kind of the

00:17:39.240 nature of the beast is that you you feel something powerful and you want to do something liberalism is

00:17:45.720 more technocratic and rational and and so on nationalism is emotional and so you you know do

00:17:53.340 you want to just suppress that and say you know you're a bad person for feeling this or do you want

00:17:59.600 to to channel it you know in a proper way and and and i i think there are definitely people who want

00:18:06.400 to do this with nationalism that's occurring right now i mean the the national conservatism stuff

00:18:13.320 that uh you know peter peter teal was speaking at these meetings presumably funding them some degree

00:18:20.780 i don't know um at least speaking at them and you have a like literally an ancient hebrew scholar

00:18:28.620 arzoni who came out of the woodwork and is um the guru of these types of meetings um i mean it's very

00:18:37.820 it's kind of remarkable when i think about my own career um that that did involve paleo conservatism

00:18:45.520 for for a time and you know if when you would go to these meetings i mean we were not getting funded

00:18:51.820 by peter teal we didn't have a you know hebrew scholar in our midst you know talking to us and

00:18:57.420 it was much more marginal you could say and and um shoestring or bootstrap kind of thing and you know

00:19:05.580 if you if you scratched anyone there you would find the alt-right or the dissident right i mean you

00:19:12.240 you wouldn't have to scratch too deep in fact and it is fascinating that paleo conservatism has been

00:19:19.180 professionalized and and funded beyond the wildest dreams of people who were involved in it at the time

00:19:26.200 and it's but but again it's it's been created in this way that it's at least from our perspective

00:19:34.840 neutered and and kind of channeled in the right direction so it's you know this is what we're

00:19:40.080 about this is what it means to be a paleo conservative you're uh we're a nationalist we

00:19:44.620 respect other nations and israel is a nation that we respect among among many others and we're going to

00:19:51.440 be somewhat russia philic but not too much you know goldilocks just right and it it is i think it's a

00:19:59.900 very intelligent strategy when you look at it even if it is a strategy a strategy that's inimical to

00:20:06.100 me and you know other people i can still kind of respect my enemy they're not going to invite me to

00:20:12.740 speak national conservatism let's just put it that way or mark i mean my i'm probably more likely

00:20:18.720 uh but uh but they you know it's it's smart it it's it's dialectical and it's and it's it's i i

00:20:30.000 respect them for for what they've done because they're they're taking something that could be

00:20:34.940 a danger and they're turning it into a benefit and that's that's it's eligible yeah contain i mean i i

00:20:43.060 would call it containment myself but this is what this is what power has always done really it's

00:20:47.280 kind of uh it's able to turn its own descent into a into a into a benefit uh right if i i don't

00:20:55.420 know if you ever seen any documentaries uh by uh adam curtis i mean you know he's got a certain style but

00:21:04.020 um but i i remember there was one where he actually went into the extent to which vladimir

00:21:08.920 putin has done this like actively funded his own his own protesters um which is you know remarkable

00:21:16.240 in a way that the dissident group even the dissident groups in russia are secretly controlled by putin

00:21:21.620 um you know which else i mean if you're not you'll you're gonna end up in jail or with poison in your

00:21:29.860 belly you know yeah or flat killed you know right right i think people like us we need to learn

00:21:37.420 something because they you know if we were in power we we might be tempted down the brutal road of like

00:21:44.320 you know if you criticize me i'm just gonna kill you or something uh and i can see that kind of

00:21:50.680 type of energy in a lot of right-wingers in general but it's not the smart move it's you know the best

00:21:57.880 opposition is the one you can is the one that you control this is what this is why i spend so much

00:22:02.920 time studying uh studying tony blair believe it or not because i just think he is of the of all of

00:22:09.120 the kind of political operators in the world he is the person who understood this most right is that

00:22:14.560 the way to defeat the right was to absorb the right to say oh well i i've heard you you know yes

00:22:21.200 blacks do do more more crime uh yes we're going to be tough on the causes of crime and we're going to

00:22:26.680 be tough and you know basically to say yeah i've listened to you and i'm going to do all the things

00:22:31.760 that like uh you know like a quote-unquote right-wing government would do and that basically takes

00:22:39.500 the energy out of it and means you own the entire space um and it's one of the things that are our

00:22:45.480 current elites uh certainly certainly america they they seem to be going down a rather different path

00:22:52.520 a much more uh belligerent path where they're not making any of the obvious obvious moves i mean

00:23:01.740 to me the the obvious the obvious move to do in america uh i mean as much as this may horrify you

00:23:07.760 and some of your listeners is just uh just just allow the right to win a few times you know just

00:23:12.100 like put put trump or de santis in and make a show of um dealing with immigration they might actually

00:23:18.680 have to deal with it but that would get the buy-in of millions of americans who've uh opted out of the

00:23:27.300 institutions and who no longer trust their government and who you know it would just take

00:23:32.500 the wind out of the sails of all of it instead they keep on doing the opposite i mean trump could

00:23:38.420 be arrested tonight which is just in my mind just insane and and and also arrested over something

00:23:45.040 that's really defensible i mean it's it's actually a misdemeanor i mean look okay i i remember it's a

00:23:50.820 little bit of a funny story my my mother she's told me this story many times she grew up in louisiana

00:23:56.440 and um so louisiana is uh famous for being corrupt it's it's almost uh charmingly corrupt in fact

00:24:06.000 and um when she was speaking with one of her college roommates or something who was outside of

00:24:11.380 louisiana she was talking about um a judge who got some payoff or something she was like self-righteously

00:24:17.620 horrified and my mother she was like okay so the judge got paid off by the the the the alcohol interest

00:24:25.940 so what's your point like what she was like what's the point of being a judge and my my mother is a

00:24:33.620 very moral person it's just when you're around louisiana politics you just inherently become a

00:24:39.300 cynic uh but you know it's like when i when i look at the stormy daniel stuff i mean look it's just like

00:24:46.300 for goodness sakes yeah of course trump had sex with a porn star when he was a 60 year old like

00:24:52.140 i i on it's gross i guess but i just fundamentally don't care and i'm not surprised by it and of

00:24:58.840 course they paid off this floozy to not talk about it while he was winning the republican nomination at

00:25:05.160 least who who cares and they're they're doing they're they're going to get him on this i have to say i

00:25:10.080 think on multiple levels i don't think these new york the da and the attorney general um uh they're

00:25:17.620 they're really smart about this because they're they're feeding into trumpism and they're i and i i

00:25:24.740 think they're going to gift him the nomination at the very least i think they're going to create a

00:25:28.840 kind of fanaticism where the alvin bragg i actually listened to an interview um of of alvin bragg uh

00:25:37.460 yesterday and it was about a 30 minute interview and i i it was a you know puff piece you know here

00:25:43.000 this is your platform to shine you know like please show us how smart you are the guy is just

00:25:49.380 not very sophisticated and they they fire their first shot which is you paid off a porn star to shut up

00:25:58.580 it's just it it is going i mean it is the wrong move 100 if what you want is to suppress trumpism

00:26:09.020 and you're gonna you're going to make it seem like a witch hunt you're going to inspire his

00:26:15.440 most fanatical supporters and even fairweather supporters are are gonna i mean look i'm expressing

00:26:21.720 sympathy for him for god's sake and i you know i mean it it's just i don't think they're sophisticated

00:26:28.860 and so we we we have this like you know enemy group the elites the liberal elites and we almost

00:26:36.860 i i think we're we're giving them too much credit to think that they're actually they actually

00:26:42.720 understand what they're doing i i think they're kind of shooting from the hip and it's going to

00:26:46.820 uh backfire really horribly and it doesn't have to i've often had the thought richard that if

00:26:53.580 somebody like edward bernays just to pick an example could come back he'd just be horrified at the

00:26:59.340 like he just he'd spend his entire life just telling everybody off like every hollywood producer

00:27:04.880 every like he'd be like we were so much better better at everything than you guys are now um

00:27:11.500 but uh i mean i taunt them you know like letitia james so the this past weekend so much happens

00:27:18.240 letitia james who's the attorney general of new york excuse me the da the district attorney is alvin

00:27:26.620 bragg attorney general of new york state i believe is letitia james correct me if i'm wrong she hosted

00:27:32.440 a drag queen story hour like she was there and of course the the the proud boys like protested it

00:27:41.320 and of course the police fought off the proud boys and you don't when you're winning it's not the time

00:27:48.980 to rub it in the face of your opponent you know like if you've if you're you're up by three touchdowns

00:27:56.380 that's not the time to like spike the ball and and yell at the other side i mean that that's the

00:28:02.460 time to be more of a sportsman and they don't get it this is actually something that uh because i

00:28:10.760 spend a lot of time watching uh tony blair interviews that like 100 people watch and me right

00:28:17.680 100 people and me um and i you know and i i uh i stream them as well but something he always talks

00:28:24.560 about is that the first rule of politics that he learned was say no to your own radicals right so

00:28:31.140 if you're the if you're the leader of the of the labor party as he was or let's say you're joe biden

00:28:37.180 you're the leader of the democrats you basically have to spend all your time shutting down the

00:28:42.120 birdie bros shutting down the insane the radical left and so on because the people you're trying to win

00:28:48.820 are the people who might vote tory or might vote republican you know they're the kind of undecided

00:28:55.380 people in the middle and broadly speaking their instincts are small small c conservative right

00:29:01.080 so you need to make a big show of getting those and and saying no to the likes of jeremy corbyn and

00:29:06.840 so on and so forth so that you capture that center ground and then when you've got the power

00:29:12.820 you can completely transform the country as tony blair did right um and i think a lot of people

00:29:19.740 i mean kirtis yavin was one of them maybe you were another one may may have had the thought that

00:29:25.720 biden might do this right that they they might go back to kind of late 90s like because clinton

00:29:31.920 clinton did similar sorts of things right he spent a lot of his time in power basically doing things

00:29:38.800 that if a republican had done then they'd have been called a fascist um uh and maybe the thought

00:29:44.840 was that biden might do this and i'm but i'm still waiting for it to happen i mean they're just not

00:29:49.560 i mean has biden done any i think he has i i okay i think i think you might have a bit of a

00:29:59.320 colored or lens because you're from outside the u.s and you're you're and you you you're looking at it

00:30:07.580 with too much influence from like the dissident right i i think biden himself

00:30:13.180 has attempted in his own way biden's not as sophisticated at least rhetorically as tony

00:30:21.840 blair bill clinton or something although those guys are you know extremely apt um uh i i think he

00:30:28.900 i think he genuinely wants to bring things together and he wants to uh you know he he ends

00:30:37.620 every speech saying god bless the troops i mean he he's he's an old man he's an old white guy from a

00:30:44.960 different generation he's not even a boomer he's a silent generation guy uh and i and i think those

00:30:51.860 are his political instincts and i think he has been relatively successful i i think the the entire

00:31:00.660 like left in general just can't help themselves and he has to he can't really he can he can discipline

00:31:13.940 his own side to some degree by just kind of de-emphasizing stuff or talking about the dangers

00:31:20.560 of matt maga extremism and things like that um uh but he can't really he he can't do much more than

00:31:30.320 that and he's not willing to do so you can find interviews of him like embracing transgender therapy

00:31:37.540 and for children i mean he's kind of caught in a in a hard place but i don't think he i think the

00:31:43.360 depiction of him as like aggressive or something is is is totally wrong right yeah i mean maybe maybe

00:31:52.160 he's just um doesn't have the wherewithal now to do all the tony blair moves or the bill clinton

00:31:59.180 moves essentially like he doesn't because that requires like a kind of certain strength and dynamism

00:32:03.660 right to be on top of and and this is something that i think the the left has i mean i say the left

00:32:11.300 the regime has lost big time within its own you know within our lifetimes which is um what they

00:32:18.040 used to call message discipline right they used to be very good at having key lines they'd say um

00:32:24.900 whereas now on now you i mean i don't know if it's because of social media or just because of the

00:32:30.840 quality of people in place or so on they're all over the shop they just don't know it's like a

00:32:36.080 kind of on any given week it's like a scattergun where you know there are five or six different

00:32:40.940 lines and you're not sure what's going on and nobody's quite sure i mean they look for a while

00:32:46.560 like cnn was dialing it back for a bit and now they're going all all in on this arrest thing i mean

00:32:53.020 it's just like it feels like it feels like they don't have coherent strategy which again i guess is a sign

00:32:59.800 of a of a kind of late late stage elite i suppose uh who need well i i think cycled out yeah i i do

00:33:08.000 think it's a it's a late stage elite and i and i don't think we're really offering something to the

00:33:14.320 world about being in an in the in being a part of the american empire and and i think that actually

00:33:20.060 is a fatal issue um uh sorry i'm just getting a text message here i might have to respond to that but

00:33:27.280 um but let me let me make this point so i i have this very long article now it's extremely long

00:33:33.520 uh on u2 of all things i actually wrote this around a year ago i revisited it's doubled in size but

00:33:41.680 um i i talk about a lot of different things in that article including the concept of even better than

00:33:48.680 the real thing but one of the things i talk about is is the way in which u2 which is a deeply americanized

00:33:56.460 band um they they they almost they prophesied the end of the cold war but i i think they even

00:34:05.820 on some level caused it and and i mean and i mean that it caused the end of the the end of the cold war

00:34:14.340 this is a bold claim i i totally understand that and it's fine to chuckle um but i'm also very

00:34:22.700 serious when i say that and what i mean by that is when you you can some ways speak something into

00:34:30.260 being and what u2 did in a song like new year's day is they offered this new world of togetherness

00:34:39.100 that would happen and that song was directly about the polish protest actually um where we could be

00:34:45.800 as one one is that fundamental u2 notion what we are one but not the same which is actually he that

00:34:54.400 line came from bono who was invited to speak at a conference by the dalai lama on oneness and he said

00:35:01.380 i'm not sure i can do this because we're one but we're not the same um that became a line in the

00:35:07.080 octoon baby album so on i'm i'm i'm going maybe too far afield in my u2 fandom uh uh get ready for

00:35:15.300 the big depeche mode uh depeche mode or the ultimate expressions of protestantism that's coming

00:35:20.360 uh i'm i'm willing to to make these crazy arguments but um back to you too so when you

00:35:28.820 when you offer some vision of what we can that we're that we're torn into we can be one tonight

00:35:36.380 that you almost cause the what you're you cause what you're depicting because you're you're

00:35:43.920 offering a vision of what the world could be afterward and so it's cultural propaganda but

00:35:50.760 but uh sting it did something similar we had a song called uh russians and one of the kind of uh

00:35:59.120 repeating choruses or phrases in it is that the russians love their children too i don't remember if

00:36:04.740 you remember that song i vaguely i'll have to go look at that song it was a popular song i mean

00:36:10.680 they were playing it on the radio uh 1985 uh was when the song was released and it was kind of in

00:36:17.500 there were there were these sort of countervailing anti-russian forces in the media as well at the

00:36:21.940 time remember uh rocky had a uh drago was rocky's opponent so he was a kind of anti-russian symbol

00:36:29.740 look you could you could make a similarly ridiculous argument that rocky four caused

00:36:36.120 the cold war remember in rocky four in that battle um dragos is like he's a rooting for him yeah he is

00:36:43.720 made of steel or something and the the um they start rooting for rocky which is just when you think

00:36:51.580 about the notion of a home team rooting for the other side i don't know if that's ever happened

00:36:57.720 since since the greeks started the olympic games like yeah and there also grew this impression that

00:37:03.800 the russian athletes are the only ones that have done steroids right which i don't think which we've

00:37:09.480 seen is is absolutely false right right but that was the sort of impression that that grew from that

00:37:14.640 propaganda or propaganda like that but but but hey mark you don't remember the uh you don't remember

00:37:20.600 the east german swim team that's true yeah yeah oh yeah well i i'm not i'm not defending their abuse

00:37:29.480 of steroids i think that they were absolutely using steroids but i think that americans were also using

00:37:34.340 steroids and have been using steroids since you know i mean i was just i was gonna say to to richard's

00:37:41.420 point that it was certainly in the in in the ether in the in the mid 80s there i always remember the uh

00:37:48.360 the queen song one vision remember that uh yeah where uh i mean it's uh i mean the lyrics are you

00:37:55.920 know i pulled them up here one man one goal one mission one heart one soul just one solution um

00:38:04.740 no right no wrong i'm going to tell you there's no black and no white no blood no stain all we need is

00:38:10.660 one worldwide vision and it was it was definitely around um right right through the kind of pop music of

00:38:18.140 the of the uh of the uh of the 80s and 90s the the classic kind of post beatles music that that was

00:38:27.740 extremely influential and kind of global in a way i mean you two has always been an alternative act but

00:38:33.820 it's been it's kind of like the the one global band there's another aspect of the christianity so um

00:38:39.880 you two were members of this uh protestant sect called shalom um that they uh i'm kind of giving

00:38:48.220 away the article here but uh they they actually met a man named christopher rowe at a mcdonald's

00:38:53.680 in dublin so it was kind of like the the perfect they or they met his church they met uh one of his

00:38:59.440 emissaries at a mcdonald's in dublin so it was almost like the ultimate expression of like

00:39:03.880 americanization in the cold war and so on the band is named after an american spy plane um and uh but

00:39:11.440 anyway it was this kind of judaizing um as the name implies hyper protestant missionary group and

00:39:18.780 they were very much influenced by this and uh i i do think the the vision that they offered was

00:39:26.000 was kind of rock and roll christianity so there another lyric that's forgotten in in uh sunday bloody

00:39:32.280 sunday which is ostensibly about the um uh uh 1972 i believe um attacks uh where british uh paratroopers

00:39:44.040 shot a dozen people or something like that you can correct me if i'm wrong um but it's it's about so

00:39:50.280 much more than that and it's about how this is i'm not going to heed the battle call this is not the

00:39:56.120 battle we should be fighting this this nationalist stuff and as as bono said this is not a rebel song

00:40:01.740 and at the the the last chorus while the band singing sunday bloody sunday um he says the real

00:40:08.300 battle's just begun to claim the victory jesus won so and you don't hear that it's often missed but

00:40:15.020 it's explicitly saying that like we we could all be one tonight through rock music and through this

00:40:21.220 dionysian you know revelry of being at a concert and being drunk and and listening to rock and roll

00:40:27.420 that kind of stuff um but he he also placed in it this is the victory that jesus won that that that's

00:40:33.940 the victory that we need to battle for is a one world culture um based on in bono's imagination

00:40:42.240 christianity i mean bono all of bono and the edge were members of this cult they've never denounced

00:40:46.460 it they are clearly christians they're global christians and they're kind of offering that i guess

00:40:51.820 the the point that i was making before was that you know say what you will about that that kind of

00:40:58.620 stuff and i and i'm sure you know people in this group will have various criticisms and and so on

00:41:03.960 that are accurate but it was a vision it was a kind of offering to the eastern block come take part in

00:41:15.260 coca-cola and mcdonald's and levi's jeans and rock music and hollywood films and and we're we're one but

00:41:22.820 not the same so you know it it was a kind of offer to to go there and i i do think that the american

00:41:30.320 empire in our kind of late stage we're we're inwardly directed and we're attacking one another

00:41:36.320 and what does it mean like what does it mean to win this conflict with russia you know what what

00:41:45.080 does it really mean how how what kind of dream are you going to dream now that you're out from under

00:41:52.080 the boot of the kremlin and you know again i'm as i've made clear i'm like i'm i'm very sympathetic

00:42:00.040 towards the nato side and to the ukrainian side but i i kind of i do recognize the limitations i mean

00:42:07.240 in some ways this this is a kind of like rehearsal of something but but not the real thing you know

00:42:15.960 it's it's like they're we're not really offering them something new it's it's more of just russia bad

00:42:22.600 and and russia in a way has done i i think better propaganda in this way not not all nato propaganda

00:42:31.200 has been bad i i've seen some some good stuff but it's been kind of absent and russia has engaged in

00:42:38.240 on the cheap what is actually really powerful propaganda that is appealing to the right in

00:42:44.340 the united states by saying you know we don't we don't like transsexuals marriage is between man and a

00:42:50.440 woman uh we're based we're christians you know all of those things can be disputed you know i could

00:42:58.000 show you you know statistics on drug use and in russia statistics on divorce statistics on abortions

00:43:04.640 statistics on all sorts of things russia has a lot of problems a lot of problems as trump might say

00:43:10.020 but it it doesn't matter because it it is something that they're offering the world where

00:43:16.620 a right winger could have a stake in that battle and and you know they could say we're we're fighting

00:43:23.060 for for for based orthodoxy right now that's what that's why what what is nato offering you know

00:43:30.700 like russia bad that just gets old increasingly i think a lot of the a lot of the i guess uh perception

00:43:39.900 of what the american empire stands for unfortunately is you know it's it's the pride flag and affirmative

00:43:46.020 action policies for you know the the colored third world i mean that's that's increasingly what

00:43:53.240 it seems like america stands for um and it doesn't have to be that way i mean i'm i i'm old enough to

00:44:00.880 remember the messaging that i that i received as a young man in uh you know from ronald reagan's

00:44:07.400 america and that was you know it was still mcdonald's and coca-cola but it was kind of masculine as

00:44:12.400 well you know it was kind of like fighter jets and he-man and wwf wrestling i mean these are all

00:44:18.420 these were all kind of um i guess masculine or rocky if you want i mean they were all expressions of

00:44:25.560 um you know it's still the same neocon gender it's just got a different clothing um whereas there's not

00:44:33.160 a lot really there for young men to get excited about and unless of course young men are excited

00:44:39.480 about sleeping with the transsexuals or whatever you know well uh is also the case perhaps we

00:44:46.800 shouldn't underestimate that appeal but um uh uh but nevertheless i i completely agree it it's

00:44:53.280 i i i have seen something maybe something like top gun maverick which was filmed in 2019

00:45:01.080 interestingly but maybe there's some there there i mean that that was the most popular film

00:45:07.440 of um of 2021 and um or 2022 i guess and it was you know 80s nostalgia tom cruise

00:45:17.200 a diversity but it was kind of almost like we're one and the same or we're many in the same because

00:45:23.600 there were everyone there was diverse faces there were brown faces and so on but everyone is kind

00:45:29.180 of american and badass you know even i i remember um kind of a surprise i mean i don't know how much

00:45:37.120 of a hit it was but i enjoyed it immensely was uh quentin tarantino's last film it's called once

00:45:42.000 upon a time in hollywood and it was just a kind of you know it was just uh an opportunity to watch

00:45:48.280 like leonardo dicaprio and brad pitt be bad badass for a while they beat bruce lee up at one point which

00:45:54.400 was controversial but it was still like a cool film you know oh yeah and they they just mutilated the

00:46:00.760 manson hippie yeah they just as well they absolutely uh you know did uh you know did some kind of

00:46:06.880 tarantino-esque ultra violence at the at the end but it wouldn't take that the point is is it wouldn't

00:46:14.660 really take that much to i guess go back to a to a mode of a more robust american propaganda that

00:46:21.140 actually that actually appeals to people um it rather than rather than kind of what they've been

00:46:29.360 doing which is you know let's face it just irritating their fan bases in the in the name of um in the name

00:46:38.120 of wokeism or whatever uh you know i mean it's very tired to all of us but you know just the abcs of

00:46:46.620 like good i mean all of all of the movies you would mark uh reviewed back in the day like uh karate kid

00:46:52.740 or jaws or whatever i mean this was effective propaganda and it became like people's parts of

00:46:58.540 people's childhoods and things and those are the those are the things that um a kind of mass empire like

00:47:04.820 this has to has to use um yeah my my view is that it in basically necessity will

00:47:15.700 force it back because ultimately if they want to maintain an empire they need to have young men sign

00:47:24.760 up for the army period um so that i i feel like you know there's some aspect of um the people in

00:47:36.260 charge who kind of uh i mean let me put it a different way i'll put it i'll just i'll put this

00:47:43.040 to you do you believe that if the regime as uh we sometimes call it really didn't want elon must

00:47:53.340 to control twitter that they would have been able to stop him that's that's that's a genuine question

00:47:58.280 i will i'll ask um or if they really didn't want ron de santis controlling florida as an example do you

00:48:05.840 think they could have just put that away because because my my my sense is that we have seen what

00:48:12.300 they're like when they really really don't want something out there um and i don't get that

00:48:18.940 impression with when it comes to likes of musk or to sound like if i feel like they want those voices

00:48:25.160 out there or um or they want anti-woke to be like a to be a mainstream narrative otherwise why is it

00:48:33.780 why is it everywhere i mean it's a it's a vote it's a vote winning line even for the tory party

00:48:38.720 here now so right um that's a genuine question i had i had for everybody uh because i i kind of feel

00:48:46.040 like they want it to happen i would say that yeah i i think they it's an interesting question because

00:48:53.440 it's very complicated i do think that there are some absorption kind of instincts where you know

00:49:00.860 we want to have a little bit of you know we again it's a smart instinct it's it don't destroy

00:49:05.640 your opponent kind of let him beat him but kind of let him come back and absorbed into your polity

00:49:13.280 um uh i i would hold i think musk it's opening up a can of worms because i i think musk might be

00:49:24.040 not long for this world for many different reasons not not not in terms of dying but in terms of um

00:49:32.060 uh uh being involved in some really kind of shady shit and and so on um i i think it is a very it again

00:49:42.820 it it is a very good question i i think with someone like desantis um he's not he's not really

00:49:50.500 pushing that hard but you know i've made the argument as well like and i'll get to you johnny

00:49:56.640 you raise your hand like if you if you think about the the roe v wade decision um so the supreme court

00:50:06.400 is the inner sanctum of inner sanctums and it might be symbolic in many ways but it is

00:50:14.300 if you want to kind of come up with an elite this is it and why they allowed the roe v way decision

00:50:24.900 to be overturned or they they encouraged it and no one really stopped it and we'll see what happens

00:50:32.880 a lot of this depends on elections and public mood but i could definitely envision a world in which

00:50:39.200 abortion is basically banned nationwide in fact um there are moneyed interests that want to do this

00:50:47.680 the federal society received a donation in the billions of dollars i mean it's it's incredible

00:50:52.760 in fact um they were given a business by barry side that's a multi-billion dollar business anyway

00:50:59.360 um i could see that and maybe is it that the there there's a portion of the elite that actually

00:51:07.260 does worry about demographics and wants to kind of force the issue and say you know this has actually

00:51:14.920 gone too far we we we're gonna we immigration can't actually solve this problem for among other reasons

00:51:22.120 these other countries have that same immigrant demographic collapse as well mexico's undergoing a

00:51:27.080 demographic collapse and we don't and and immigration creates its own problems so maybe we kind of need

00:51:33.580 to force americans to have children um and we can dress it up in legalism i'm not positive this is

00:51:42.820 what happened but i i am positive that this is an in a way how elites can operate that's that's

00:51:53.260 interesting richard because i i remember there's a in in the absolutely massive book by pareto which is

00:51:59.440 it's about three million words long so okay don't ask me where this is but at some point

00:52:04.000 he he points out he says listen could pareto has this idea that ideology is bullshit right

00:52:11.240 uh that most of the time um the uh the elites are driven by more practical concerns and they justify it

00:52:19.180 after the fact right um or they're driven by like gut level instincts and then and then all of the

00:52:26.180 kind of uh i get super structural residues are kind of things grafted on top but he has this passage

00:52:33.820 somewhere he says like listen when the birth rate is uh when when there's overpopulation the elites will

00:52:40.780 will give you arguments to reduce the birth rate somehow right uh to increase the birth rate

00:52:46.740 rate somehow um and they'll link they'll have policies that encourage the population to procreate

00:52:52.920 and when um and when you know when it's the opposite of that then you'll get all the arguments

00:52:59.280 coming out for reducing the birth rate or you know culling the population etc etc um it's kind of

00:53:07.060 interesting to to to think about that our current elites would do it in such a way where the actual

00:53:14.720 issue is hidden so it's done under the guise of you know the abortion debate in america but

00:53:21.040 actually it's just the real thing driving it is you know it is uh is that and in fact he gives

00:53:29.020 he gives several examples of where uh you know it elites in the same country within the space of like

00:53:35.420 60 or 70 years make the opposite argument based on what the population is doing at that time so

00:53:41.900 kind of interesting thing to think about yeah it is um johnny do you want to jump in sure uh thanks

00:53:48.940 richard i was in regards to like elon musk and uh desantis i just from my perspective liberalism is

00:53:57.080 the liberal system we we live under it's sort of like a fragile system so any type of diversion into

00:54:04.720 like illiberalism whether you put the screws to musk or you put the screws to desantis legally

00:54:09.180 or you know financially i just think it creates a recipe for the breakdown of the current order

00:54:15.240 does that make sense we're like liberalism has to operate under ostensibly quote law and order or

00:54:22.080 else it just sort of falls apart it can sort of collapse in on itself even with like the iron laws

00:54:26.840 of institutions and all that stuff i just don't think that if you start acting in an illiberal fashion

00:54:33.460 our elites i just think it's a recipe for disaster does that make sense because i mean even like in

00:54:40.020 even in the u.s in the far right to show themselves in a way i mean right they would have to take off

00:54:46.140 the velvet glove right they would have to reveal the fact that that there are you know there are more

00:54:52.300 there are higher interest than allowing a free flow of money and ideas and i they're they're generally

00:55:01.320 speaking not eager to do that um i think they they like an idea where we think that you know it's

00:55:09.320 mccarthy versus pelusi and you know desantis and and aoc is it's it's a kind of battle between these

00:55:17.440 these figures that you know you don't have to be terribly cynical to define these figures as as

00:55:24.360 really largely symbolic the thing that interests me though is that those those two figures musk and

00:55:31.320 desantis are easily way more true to kind of american liberalism than their opponents are

00:55:38.560 um if you read the uh one of the articles i did a while back on my substack was i went through the uh

00:55:45.180 the stop woke act i mean the stop woke act is basically something that wouldn't be a place in like

00:55:51.120 communist russia or something or uh or in this country we have something called the um

00:55:56.600 the equality act 2010 i mean the stop woke act is i mean it might as well just say i ban racism in

00:56:04.100 florida right i mean he's doing it he's like desantis is doing that um with the idea of stopping crt and so

00:56:13.100 on but it's all under the rubric of anti-racism and of a quality and of asserting equality and of um

00:56:22.880 doing away with i guess the idea of voluntary association like you you just like you have

00:56:30.380 to be friends with people of all different races you know i'm glad you brought this up yeah i'll need

00:56:36.900 to don't operate under the rubric of liberalism all right it's still operating under liberalism

00:56:42.100 oh no quite it's almost operating under a hyper liberalism because i i mean let me let me go into

00:56:49.340 this just a little bit i mean there there was a there was actually an article in the new york times

00:56:54.420 last week or this weekend on how one of these textbooks does not want to be divisive and so

00:57:02.320 they're struggling and the textbook industry is multi-multi billions um as you can imagine with

00:57:08.040 you know the number of public schools that all that are making huge orders of tens of thousands of

00:57:13.300 textbooks um and uh they they were having they were struggling to talk about rosa parks because

00:57:19.680 they almost wanted they almost wanted to do it in a non-racial way and i i almost find myself

00:57:26.900 taking the side of the 1619 project or something on on a lot of these issues like it wasn't like the

00:57:35.000 the civil war was fundamentally about slavery and it was actually that that was the not the

00:57:41.680 there are other causes but that was the primary one and that was one that could not be removed if

00:57:49.040 it were removed the civil war would never have taken place and all of the many other causes flowed from

00:57:54.880 that basic issue and i think even you could even say that it wasn't so much about slavery as just race

00:58:00.740 itself and the status of these things but um anyway um the there there's this weird way in which i do think

00:58:10.560 the like left are more are far more accurate in this way in the sense that they're willing to go there

00:58:18.900 and discuss this matter and i think you know when there's an issue as you probably saw on twitter about you

00:58:25.760 know how do you define wokeness and some poor young girl who wrote a book on wokeness was asked what is

00:58:32.600 woke and she was just standing there you know she can't answer it it's kind of funny in a way but it

00:58:38.820 is obviously the term is overused and it's used for anything you know it's like you you want to take

00:58:43.560 away gas stoves that's woke or whatever you know it's obviously misused overused but i i think

00:58:49.760 one way to define it is is demoralizing in a way so when you know desantis wants a vision and other

00:59:00.580 conservatives they want a patriotic but also post-racial or egalitarian vision of america so

00:59:08.580 we had this you know and ted cruz used these terms exactly he's like our original sin was slavery so he's

00:59:14.460 using you know christian language so we we had this there were some bad people once upon a time

00:59:20.600 but there are no more bad people and we got rid of the bad people and we we kind of overcame this into

00:59:27.040 a post-racial liberal community and that from their standpoint is moralizing and i think the the woke

00:59:33.700 people are are saying things that they probably do rub us the wrong way i mean we you know but but

00:59:41.440 they they're not they're they are historically accurate of kind of like well actually slavery

00:59:47.560 didn't really end and you know it it it there was no the plantation system went away eventually but

00:59:54.540 the the basic structure of society and hierarchies was maintained for a long time even maintained after

01:00:00.940 the civil rights movement and if you look at just a basic kind of ethnic nepotism when it comes to

01:00:08.820 starting a business or who do you go to church with or who do you give priority to and and so on

01:00:14.240 we're still racist you know in many ways and they're they're kind of poking at american society not

01:00:20.160 letting them have their dream yeah i'm i'm glad i'm glad you mentioned this richard because from my

01:00:26.700 from my point of view probably all of the worst scholarship ever ever published ever produced by anybody

01:00:34.580 is basically like center-right mainstream history from like 19 from like 1960 to now right i mean

01:00:44.260 stuff that will be put out by the hoover institute or like you know the latest biography of winston

01:00:50.000 churchill or whatever it is i mean i there i mean i've said this before like the left get a lot wrong

01:00:57.000 but what they get right they get more right than the the current center right who who's basically

01:01:03.280 the entire worldview is built on lies on trying to maintain a kind of a kind of fiction right uh and

01:01:11.180 of trying to um trying to like i mean i give you an example right i mean i was asked to to um uh to do

01:01:19.440 a piece on uh thomas carlisle a while back and i've got lots and lots of books of thomas carlisle

01:01:24.080 on thomas carlisle yeah thomas carlisle uh supported slavery right he wrote a uh a famous pamphlet

01:01:32.320 which caused him to fall out with j.s mill um called an occasional discourse on the end question

01:01:38.300 right um he uh he you know he supported uh he had like authoritarian views he had the great man view

01:01:47.580 of history he he refused uh honors from benjamin disraeli because he didn't like the group that

01:01:53.980 benjamin disraeli came from like this was who he was right and it's part and parcel of his thought

01:02:01.120 if you pick up a textbook on thomas carlisle written in like i don't know like let's say like 1976 or

01:02:08.600 whatever by some like conservative intellectual who's trying to like rescue carlisle

01:02:13.420 they do this horrible thing of trying to like white wash it or trying to so actually thomas carlisle

01:02:20.660 wasn't racist or whatever he was right he and not only was he it's part like it's it's really important

01:02:27.600 to understand why he was as well right i mean he's got a fantastic essay on um on on haiti where he says

01:02:34.700 listen i'll make you a prediction right in the next 200 years haiti will still be exactly where it is right

01:02:41.880 now and uh i mean we can well we can look at haiti today right um and in a strange way the left

01:02:48.940 because of their willingness to to actually tackle these topics in an honest way get more right than

01:02:56.000 they get wrong it's just where they're coming from on it right is it you know i i often i often

01:03:02.660 do this thing of um you know i was trained as a as a literary scholar marxists used to love to do this thing

01:03:09.800 of like reading a text against the grain well you can pick up a lot of leftist kind of scholarship

01:03:16.860 and just read it against the rain and suddenly it becomes like quite quite based in a strange way

01:03:22.540 have you ever done that like you can just kind of read it upside down it's like oh hold on a second

01:03:27.100 this is actually that's a really good point and i have discovered some great stuff through through

01:03:32.740 left-wing scholarship because they alert you to things you wouldn't have been aware of and then you

01:03:38.200 think oh i wonder what the real story was and you just dig a little bit deeper and it's like all

01:03:42.320 right okay um i mean i give you an example i saw that uh of exactly this issue right there's this guy

01:03:49.300 matt walsh i'm sure you're all familiar with him yes he's like a uh you know he's got like 1.5 million

01:03:55.440 followers i think he uh yeah he currently on um on uh twitter calling himself the transphobe of the year

01:04:02.800 right um well he did a tweet yesterday saying uh oh ridiculous grand valley state university is

01:04:10.280 holding five segregated graduation celebrations singling out asian black lgbt hispanic and native

01:04:16.760 american graduates right so this this college is doing an asian graduation ceremony a black graduation

01:04:24.320 ceremony a latino one um and it's doing a native one right and there's no there's no one for straight

01:04:32.360 white people is what uh matt walsh's point but i'm thinking uh i don't know like in a strange sort

01:04:39.880 of way i don't like maybe like if they all want to do their own graduation ceremonies like you know

01:04:46.380 i mean you understand what i'm saying yeah it's this weird way we're conservatives what it's like we're no

01:04:53.980 longer colorblind and so we're we based our conservatism on a colorblind concept which we reluctantly

01:05:02.280 accepted and now you're moving on to identitarianism and we don't know what to say like we're we don't

01:05:09.960 we we want the old lies back and we're gonna kind of just force our will upon the the population so

01:05:18.580 that we can live in this dream that race just doesn't matter and we're gonna kind of focus on

01:05:24.700 sex we're gonna focus on the trans transsexual issue and you know we we've kind of it's like we've

01:05:30.840 we solved that problem we reached a compromise and now you guys want to go back and talk about

01:05:36.860 racial identity well you know it that i think that is getting to the the mindset but yeah obviously from

01:05:43.800 our standpoint if asians want to have an asian graduation ceremony why would we want to stop that

01:05:52.240 you know i mean that's wrong or something i mean no they they want to have have a experience of

01:05:59.800 togetherness and good on them conservatives pick the worst hills to die on it's like

01:06:06.940 yeah well that that is definitely true i think there's an inner martyrdom concept within them exactly

01:06:15.980 and they i've noticed too they they seem at least in the u.s i can't speak to the conservative movement

01:06:21.200 in other countries but they seem to like revel in losing and complaining about it you know and

01:06:27.080 they'll try it out like the double standard like you know what if the shoe was on the other foot i'm

01:06:31.480 just like is that all you got yeah it is all they got yeah um i i think also to go back into this of

01:06:42.340 the 1619 project um i i think it would be interesting to look at the influence of slavery and and from a

01:06:52.720 kind of revisionist standpoint the influence of slavery even in the american revolution of because

01:06:58.800 the the american revolution had in a way two parts i mean we we like to remember the declaration of

01:07:06.720 independence and all this kind of heady language from jefferson there there was a more northeastern

01:07:12.580 kind of more rabble-rousing you know revolution the glorious cause was taking place before that and

01:07:20.100 a lot of the i wonder the degree to which slave plantation owners slave owners got on board under the threat

01:07:28.640 of ending that system um by george the third and um and and all these other kind of like

01:07:37.020 little things there's there's actually a good book by um george wills who's a former conservative who

01:07:43.100 kind of renounced all these things um on thomas jefferson called the negro president and i think it's

01:07:49.020 called a negro power something like that i'll have to go negro president jefferson and the slave power

01:07:54.160 but i remember learning in middle school about the so so-called three-fifths clause and it was

01:08:01.860 basically saying that we're treating africans african-americans as three-fifths of a human being

01:08:08.380 i can't believe we did that well that is a total distortion of what was actually going on so

01:08:14.720 at what it said basically was that african the african-american population would be counted at

01:08:21.400 three-fifths of its total southerners actually wanted to treat african-americans as one once as

01:08:28.880 one people and to count them in the population it was actually the yankees who didn't uh they wanted

01:08:35.660 to count them as none so effectively african-americans obviously did not have a rights as as citizens that

01:08:45.200 were enjoyed by you know white citizens uh but they were counted in the population totals that determined

01:08:52.580 the house of representatives and uh and so on and so we have this secession of um with maybe john adams

01:09:01.100 as a as a counterexample but of but a plantation owning presidents early on in the history and southern

01:09:08.200 presidents so much of that was that citizens were in effect being over counted due to the negro power

01:09:16.060 demographic power um so all of these again like all of these kind of quaint ideas that we have

01:09:25.200 about america they are just that they are pretty little wise and a lot of those kind of like you

01:09:32.340 know i don't think if i what i just said would i would probably be fired as a high school teacher

01:09:37.360 if i said that in ron de santis's florida you know i'm going against teaching i'm woke history

01:09:45.240 exactly but i i don't know i mean it's it's it's the truth and maybe there's something good about

01:09:54.860 woke woke the metaphor of woke is is awakening so you know when you and you can understand that a few

01:10:01.460 different ways but that awareness that you have that there's something that was hiding in plain

01:10:07.160 sight and now you're able to see it and it is in many ways a kind of awakening to an identitarianism

01:10:15.860 of some kind and you know again there's there's plenty in the left that i that rubs me the wrong

01:10:22.140 way the rubs that i find ridiculous it rubs i don't even need to say it rubs everyone on this call the wrong

01:10:26.620 way but i i to just assume that the right is on our side or something i i think is is completely

01:10:34.800 incorrect um i i think you could make an argument that we will benefit by kind of writing out this

01:10:42.660 woke transition and that it can it could possibly kind of lead places that many of its current

01:10:50.000 supporters aren't expecting yeah i mean i always remember a jonathan bowden speech from uh back in

01:10:56.420 the day i can't remember exactly which one it was where he starts talking about um i mean obviously

01:11:03.080 this was quite a long you know quite a long time ago but he talks about um how a lot of what we're

01:11:09.800 seeing is almost like kind of training for white people to become a minority and to think of

01:11:15.480 themselves as a group again right i mean he does highlight that it's not much fun right uh because

01:11:22.720 you have to fight for your piece of the cultural pie as opposed to just being the de facto the majority

01:11:29.840 um yeah so but i i i it's always stuck with me that little line that uh bowden had i think there's

01:11:37.720 something in it especially in america especially in america um i think that that the net effect of all

01:11:45.560 of this really is is a kind of racial awakening uh among white people to be aware whether whether it's

01:11:54.080 through the the kind of woke guilt or through the right wing thing right it is this awareness that

01:12:01.680 whites are a thing right whereas um back in the back in the 90s i always call it uh you know back to

01:12:11.940 fresh prince back in the 90s it was like well i watched the fresh prince of bel-air you know i like

01:12:17.160 uncle phil and therefore i'm not racist we're all the same well that's not the message anymore so um

01:12:23.600 i do i do wonder if it's basically inevitable at this point that um you will get a kind of white

01:12:32.680 identitarianism uh at the moment it's still kind of hiding itself or speaking in dog whistles or

01:12:37.540 whatever but um it seems like they haven't dialed it down they haven't dialed it down it has to be an

01:12:44.280 identitarianism because i i think the the santus vision of like i won't wake up you know i i am

01:12:53.380 anti-woke like we we will not wake up to this reality we will continue to sleep you know like

01:12:59.800 uncle phil is a great man he's an american i mean i i have a theory you take this away from me to go back

01:13:09.560 to go back to what we talked about right by the star of the core i've had a long-standing theory

01:13:14.760 that the that the bid to uh put woke away um it's largely driven by the you remember we talked about

01:13:26.060 the uh the big retiree group in florida who background de santis um and uh you know israeli

01:13:32.620 nationalists and so on i i i i have a i have a kind of it seems to me that

01:13:39.880 a large part of the anti-woke agenda is also driven by that group who um perceive perhaps rightly

01:13:49.980 that their place on the progressive stack doesn't count for anything anymore

01:13:53.660 and basically the writing's on the wall i mean again this is something that mark may have may have

01:13:59.680 uh may have looked at but in this country there's a comedian called david baddiel

01:14:05.140 um not a particularly great comedian it has to be said he he's famous for writing a football song

01:14:11.040 called uh three lions on a shirt right with a with a guy called frank skinner um but he he's also he's

01:14:18.160 also jewish and he's a comedian and he wrote a book called jews don't count um and the ostensible

01:14:25.920 target of that he wasn't thinking of the quote unquote far right he was thinking of the corbynista

01:14:32.940 left if you remember jeremy corbyn basically was ousted over claims that he was uh he was anti-semitic um

01:14:40.140 um but it it really comes down to this idea that in the current kind of uh milestone of left-wing

01:14:51.400 politics there's no there's no place at the table for could you use anymore i have read uh pieces in

01:14:58.580 um tablet magazine where they're you know uh worrying over it's like oh no the the ivy league

01:15:06.560 percentage uh may reduce from like 30 to 20 over the next 10 years um this is a problem you know

01:15:13.720 things like this um so i mean it does seem true i think that's true that jews increasingly don't

01:15:22.120 count in in the multi-culti uh uh um table you know they don't have a seat at that table i think

01:15:29.640 this is a kind of historical problem for them as well because they had the you know the martin

01:15:34.680 luther king alliance of the the jewish black alliance i think got got freeders have got pieces

01:15:38.680 on this somewhere but that broke down that broke down around the time of the you know of the rise

01:15:45.360 of the neocons and so on um and and then they tried to like put it all back together in the in the 90s

01:15:51.640 and it feels like it's breaking down again you know yeah it's it's sort of it's a bit of the story of the

01:15:57.520 uh golem of prague right um so they create something that ultimately turns against them um christianity

01:16:05.700 being one example as well which is intermittently turned against them but i think that it's for the

01:16:11.120 most part um uh accommodated them or has been beneficial for them uh you know during its its

01:16:18.040 existence i mean i think we're seeing that we're seeing the end of christianity or at least among

01:16:22.180 europeans through the white world um but i think that uh so i think that that's true i think it's

01:16:27.960 it's multiculturalism kind of fits into a similar or same category uh you could even say it's a kind

01:16:34.820 of continuation or realization of christianity on some level as well um but uh so yeah it will

01:16:42.740 it will turn on them uh as communism turned on them as well right um any so in they they have this

01:16:50.800 habit and it's it's sort of their will to power and i think this is a very ancient uh phenomena that

01:16:56.660 goes into uh the ancient world before jews appear on the scene among these cults that i would call

01:17:03.460 proto-jewish but there is this instinct to push uh egalitarianism right in that egalitarianism or

01:17:10.620 equality becomes a kind of will to power for jews uh but in then the consequence of the success of

01:17:17.420 those movements is that they see themselves in privileged positions right but once they're in

01:17:22.380 privileged positions then they are also the enemy right if everyone else is is an egalitarian or

01:17:29.020 everyone else is um you know part of this uh this idealized equality then they also become the enemy

01:17:36.840 um because they they've sort of ascended above it i mean oh please one of the one of the big things

01:17:44.880 i've noticed that chain that has changed you know in the years that i've been on online like you know

01:17:49.700 from 2016 to now basically is the sheer prevalence of um black violence videos that do the round on

01:17:59.080 twitter right um and they they you know they they they're shared with a kind of real frequency now

01:18:06.340 and there was one that came across my timeline a couple of weeks back where a guy is um like a

01:18:14.280 homeless guy was shot like in the street now i i didn't share that because i've got a like a you

01:18:19.640 know i don't like to to see like actual actual killings and things on my timeline but i i look

01:18:26.520 to see like well who who's sharing this and um i was absolutely stunned to discover that ben shapiro

01:18:33.220 retweeted that i mean ben shapiro would never have done that in kind of like his uh polite national

01:18:41.300 review kind of 2016 mold but now he's like actively drawing attention to um kind of kind of black

01:18:51.340 violence and things like this which were never really really talking points of the daily of the

01:18:57.100 daily wire so why is that happening well i have to say i i wrote about this 10 years ago um i believe

01:19:05.940 it was 2012 maybe maybe it was 2014 but it was a little while ago and john darbyshire was fired from

01:19:14.320 national review um for for writing an article that uh i mean to be fair uh was was pretty harsh he kind

01:19:22.440 of had a bit of a scott adams like moment and was was giving the talk to his white children saying you

01:19:30.160 should avoid uh african americans and you know a bit much he was actually going through cancer at the

01:19:36.080 time and and so on but um what i noticed was that you have this like vehement denunciation of

01:19:45.780 darbyshire he's fired from national review he was and other people were pissing on his grave and all that

01:19:51.100 kind of stuff um with very few exceptions if any but at the same time there was this embrace

01:19:59.920 on breitbart media at the time so i don't think what you're describing is new i think it's been

01:20:05.840 amplified with social media because now everything takes place on social media whereas previously

01:20:11.440 things were taking place at like webzines and things like that but breitbart would have like

01:20:16.220 full color stories about danish tourists visiting detroit and getting their clothes stolen and beaten up and

01:20:25.040 all this just ritualistic humiliation of people and the the irony of course is that everyone sees

01:20:33.520 that image of a danish tourist for example getting beaten up in detroit everyone knows what that that's

01:20:39.340 about you know it's just it's it's race crime blacks you know etc but you don't you don't say it

01:20:47.420 and so but darbyshire actually came out and just said it so i i think there is a way it's been going

01:20:55.980 on longer than in the just the past four or five years of these types of people kind of channeling

01:21:02.120 that energy to get to go back to a theme that we were discussing earlier of you know we we kind of

01:21:07.040 can't fight this and we can actually use this uh to promote our stuff i mean i i and i think this this

01:21:14.040 has some like very kind of weird effects um i i think someone like scott adams um i mean look is

01:21:22.360 in terms of you should avoid blacks or something i mean look that that's something that whites have

01:21:29.160 been doing for for decades upon decades at this point you don't need to talk about it you just need to

01:21:35.040 find a good school and you know a good neighborhood etc um but i think he was a guy who kind of got

01:21:43.060 radicalized by this immediacy of social media so he was seeing all this stuff all the time

01:21:48.100 and he in in many ways kind of mischaracterizes blacks as a hate group and out to get him or

01:21:56.320 something but i i think his brain kind of got fried by this where where the the boomer who was colorblind

01:22:03.140 learns to hate through social media you see a lot of other conservatives who are when they depict blm

01:22:09.740 it's like they burn down our cities and so on well that that's a bit of an exaggeration and you

01:22:16.920 in your iowa suburb you were fine there there was probably some mild blm thing with a bunch of people

01:22:24.420 holding signs but via social media and in this intimacy and immediacy that we can achieve in a way

01:22:31.480 they did burn down their cities in a way antifa was in their backyard because that's the consciousness

01:22:37.580 that we have is that you know salacious video that you see on facebook

01:22:42.660 yeah i guess the point i was making is that ben shapiro now uses language like anti-white

01:22:50.640 yeah and um and his outlet which i think is daily wire correct me if i'm wrong now leans into

01:22:58.820 that sort of language which even a few years back was the kind of uh you know that was part of the

01:23:08.060 lexicon of what the alt-right used to be and now they're now they're kind of like ben shapiro talking

01:23:13.200 points and i i'm just wondering like if i was part of the same group as ben shapiro

01:23:18.960 um i'll be thinking like you know who where do i make my alliance and what's my bet for the future

01:23:28.560 i i guess and i and i just see a certain a certain element of the uh of the american elite let's just

01:23:36.920 say is probably thinking like well i don't know like when when the board is like now replaced with

01:23:44.600 like you know half half of them are mexican and half of them are black for example or now like

01:23:50.900 the entire governorship of my state is run by like that the guy from new york that you were talking

01:23:56.380 about are they going to have my back in the same way that somebody i'd want to send this is going to

01:24:00.920 have my back you understand totally no i completely understand i think there there's an element of of

01:24:08.640 jews who are making that bet and um you know bibi netanyahu is laying down with very hardcore

01:24:19.160 nationalist in israel and and i think this is kind of part of the the problem that he's he's facing

01:24:25.460 right now there's a protest talk of civil war and so on um and i i do think that yeah and on a funny

01:24:34.420 way the alt-right kind of won in the sense like if you look at someone like matt walsh in i can

01:24:39.940 remember him from 2015 he was the ultimate cock he was anti-trump people were lambasting him he's a

01:24:45.540 hipster christian silly boy or whatever now he is the ultimate baddie you know the guy who will just

01:24:54.280 call out transsexuals to their face um far right fat i think at one point on his twitter he he like

01:25:01.900 bragged about you know theocratic fascist or something was like his description you know

01:25:07.040 this is an ironic thing i mean matt walsh probably says way more radical stuff than either you or i

01:25:13.680 would oh yeah i mean you know uh it's it's a it's it's a strange dynamic that is uh and isn't it kind

01:25:22.640 of infuriating that they would they denounce people like us you know four years ago and then they use our

01:25:29.800 then you know idioms and and and slogans and so it you know it it feels kind of feels like we got used

01:25:38.180 well we'll contain we'll contain this yeah but i think it's also assigned to me i mean the lesson

01:25:47.480 that i learned as well is that you you don't want to be assimilated like you know for instance i i don't

01:25:55.220 know the last time i tweeted about transsexuals or something you know i mean it's like look

01:26:00.180 we get it you know like i don't i don't need to to to retweet libs of tiktok to to to to to say that

01:26:09.000 like this person is is kind of ill you know i mean we get it it's sad in many ways i i just don't do it

01:26:16.780 but i i i think it they're the challenge that that i see as well is you you have to put yours you you

01:26:24.600 have to put yourself on a level where you kind of can't be assimilated and and that is showing that

01:26:31.100 you are getting at something important and powerful you know like so much of the so-called dissident right

01:26:37.000 and so on is is they're saying the same thing that matt walsh is saying there's no they're saying it on

01:26:42.380 a more polite way in in many cases so what's the point you know you you you've gotta if you are a

01:26:50.960 real dissident and and you know and in at least like in terms of civilization of politeness i'm not

01:26:59.440 a dissident i'm not i'm not out throwing molotov cocktails at people or trying to undermine the

01:27:05.320 system or you know i i think but we are trying to kind of undermine the system morally and and that

01:27:11.220 means that you have to go to a different place and you do need to start talking about things you

01:27:17.460 could go to a different place on one level of you know being an outright skinhead or crazy person or

01:27:23.620 flat earther or whatever i obviously we don't want to go there um it's it's dumb but you you want to go

01:27:30.240 to another place where they they can't assimilate you that that it that it is too radical or too

01:27:36.740 potentially damaging and demoralizing to the system and i think that's the place we need to go

01:27:42.680 i don't i don't think you know direct action i've learned my lesson i mean i never

01:27:48.200 engaged in direct action you know in the sense of like i'm i'm trying to uh cease the functioning of

01:27:56.080 the government or i was not at j6 nor was i invited nor that i you know i i'm not going to try

01:28:01.160 to confront the government in any in any way but in you know but we were you know something like

01:28:09.520 charlottesville that that was out there in your face you know we're here you know uh you're gonna

01:28:15.080 have to force us to leave well you ultimately can get bulldozed in that way so i i don't i think

01:28:20.660 that's a losing strategy but i do think that we need to like the the process of of demoralizing the

01:28:29.940 system in in offering an alternative to the system you you have to go in a way where matt

01:28:36.860 walsh is you have to go where matt walsh won't follow you yeah i mean i i mean it might be one

01:28:43.880 of the things that kind of likes of us need to do really is the complete um i guess you'd like the

01:28:50.500 complete intellectual demolition of the post-war center right would be a nice place to start right

01:28:56.160 um because in many ways they're the ultimate they are the ultimate enemy right and a lot of the a

01:29:05.020 lot of the stuff we see okay i mean right nobody wants to see their own children um you know uh

01:29:14.220 brainwashed by transgender ideology or whatever right but ultimately these are issues the system is

01:29:23.700 uncomfortable discussing that's why you're there on your feet 24 7 right there are ever more

01:29:31.760 fundamental things that we need to to get at in a way um and this is really what i'm i mean but the

01:29:41.260 i'm writing a trilogy of books you know i had the populist delusion was my kind of a attack on the idea

01:29:47.680 of democracy liberal democracy liberalism um this next book i have coming out which is called the

01:29:54.820 prophets of doom is really a uh a kind of um it it's getting at the idea of linear progressive history

01:30:03.060 and trying to trying to undermine that and knock it out from like so these are kind of really basic

01:30:10.900 assumptions that nobody even thinks about um you know what is the shape of history i mean i i think

01:30:18.060 there's utility for us in having a cyclical view of history rather than a linear progressive one

01:30:23.860 and then the third book i want to write at some point uh when i when i recover from just having

01:30:31.160 handed in this manuscript it's called the boomer truth regime where i want to really my target is

01:30:38.560 basically individualism it's it's individualism um yeah uh by which i mean like kind of boomer or even

01:30:47.360 or even more importantly like gen x individualism right this idea that um uh so i feel like knocking

01:30:56.480 those sorts of things out these are the kinds of um these are the kinds of things that are that are so

01:31:03.360 um um buried so deep in your kind of social conditioning that it takes a lot to uh see them

01:31:13.940 within yourself right and and in a way what i want people are you know people in our little

01:31:19.360 vanguard to do if you want is to kind of is to kind of uh kill that boomer within themselves if that

01:31:29.640 makes any sense um which is which is very difficult to do which is almost impossible to do by the way

01:31:35.400 um uh which is which is something i something i discuss in this book which is so it's like well

01:31:40.860 you have to also come to peace with you have to come to peace with the fact that you are

01:31:44.920 like you're never gonna like you're never gonna completely get rid of all your liberal priors because

01:31:51.700 you are thoroughly the product of your time and your place right but you have to be able to see its

01:31:58.120 limitations and how it how it is um can i put it uh how it has been used um to stymie what the

01:32:09.720 quote-unquote right has been able to do i mean i don't even know if you want to use the term left

01:32:14.640 and right but a kind of political force that would would be effective against uh you know against the

01:32:22.080 enemy um so that's uh kind of what what i see the mission as at the moment yeah yeah i can't wait i

01:32:29.960 can't wait for all this go ahead i would say uh regarding shapiro though um it does seem that um

01:32:35.840 because it's one thing to say that you're anti-white and it's another and maybe quite another thing to say

01:32:41.380 that you're pro-white um but that may be in the offing presumably it is in the offing right so then

01:32:49.160 what does shapiro what does shapiro do and we we're familiar with all these conversations having

01:32:54.960 been in the dr you know since 2004 richard earlier um so in some of that becomes well okay it's you can

01:33:04.160 be proud of being scottish or you can be proud of being english but you can't be proud of being what

01:33:09.360 we we start to enter into that territory right um but but ultimately the question is you know can

01:33:16.480 you be pro-white and isn't it good to be pro-white and i think that that is a question that's going

01:33:21.200 to be emerging um even among the elite you know it's it's in even the kind of foreseeable future

01:33:28.120 uh so where does shapiro go then you know i mean and um so it'll be interesting to think to see and he

01:33:35.940 might you know people like shapiro maybe not shapiro exactly but someone uh similar to shapiro

01:33:42.360 occupying a similar cultural role in the future may have to concede yeah you can be pro-white right

01:33:49.600 and then i think

01:33:50.840 well oh sorry did you uh

01:33:58.360 did we lose both of you guys

01:34:02.140 does it does anyone else hear me

01:34:07.360 are you guys still there hello

01:34:14.420 yeah i'm i'm still here okay okay yes yeah i mean i think my whole zoom uh shut down and then

01:34:23.960 restarted i don't know what happened there but we're still recording so yeah i mean i think he

01:34:29.200 would i think i mean to answer your question i think he would weasel a little bit with the question

01:34:34.520 but i think that he would i think he would say that he's a white guy um but i i think that that's

01:34:41.800 not you know um that's not a totally truthful answer of course right because his strongest uh

01:34:48.040 fealty and identity is being jewish um you know i mean the guy you don't think there could be like a

01:34:55.760 white identitarianism where likes of a shapiro or somebody like him might try to install themselves

01:35:02.580 at the head of it uh because i mean when i well i mean when i look at the discourse probably some of

01:35:08.740 the most outspoken like quote-unquote pro-white voice i mean i think it was someone like amy wax

01:35:14.220 right i mean you know there's currently a call to get her like her tenure removed you know she's a

01:35:22.700 she's like a law professor uh i met i met it once amy wax uh but like you know you you do get these

01:35:29.980 kind of straight talking jewish intellectuals who are kind of you know they basically you know repeat

01:35:39.720 to all the same sort of talking points that someone like steve sailor would make um you know you know

01:35:44.380 definitely so so i guess that's my question for you mark like why wouldn't they try to uh i guess

01:35:53.140 like get ahead of the game and like become you know become the spokesman for whatever that new

01:35:59.420 identitarianism is well i think that they would but i just i think that there's a there's a line or

01:36:04.900 there's a there's probably a bridge that they won't cross ultimately um and the reason that they

01:36:10.100 would position position themselves there is to lead the opposition as it were i don't think that

01:36:14.780 their interest is in a revival of white racialism it's just sort of where the tide is pushing right

01:36:21.020 uh so that they would want to be um they would want to be they want to they would want to get ahead

01:36:26.980 of it as it were and to um control control that sort of caducean dialectic um but yeah i mean but

01:36:37.000 again i think i would say further i i agree with you that there's a big difference between calling out

01:36:43.700 anti-whites and saying you're pro-white but i wouldn't i could see these forces maybe not ben shapiro

01:36:53.920 himself but maybe ben shapiro declaring themselves to be pro-white um i mean this is kind of where it's

01:37:02.320 leading and yeah and in some ways they've already done this i mean the judeo-christian i mean all of

01:37:08.040 that the religious right came directly out of uh of uh dc the desegregation battle which which was

01:37:16.680 lost basically by these people i mean jerry falwell's paradigmatic in the sense of a outright

01:37:22.580 segregationist who went back to his study and kind of changed his terminology and came out five

01:37:28.980 years later and says you know ah it's about abortion now um so i mean in some ways they've

01:37:34.480 done this in all but name and i could see them like locking that tightrope in a way i i understand

01:37:42.640 that it's threatening but in a way like you know one of the reasons why i'm attracted to your ideas

01:37:51.720 is that you recognize that our message can't just be about we like white people you know like what

01:38:02.440 we're what you know what does that mean what what does it mean to be white what does it mean to be

01:38:07.920 arian and who are you talking about because it seems like a lot of so-called pro-white people

01:38:14.460 aren't necessarily pro-white they're pro-republican voting rural and suburban whites

01:38:21.300 and they're they're not necessarily pro-white and they want you know they talk about that that whole

01:38:27.500 national divorce thing that's been in the air in white nationalism i can remember it 15 years ago

01:38:33.800 and you know and it's you know it's basically defining the white race in terms of red states

01:38:40.420 you know the white race is republican basically i am against that and i think that what we need to do

01:38:48.600 is a spiritual message i think that's going to be more powerful i mean i can imagine and i i grant

01:38:56.360 i grant you that it's kind of outrageous to even think about this i can imagine ben sapiro saying uh

01:39:03.460 well you know and no one here supports uh slavery or or or segregation and um but you know uh we did

01:39:10.200 have a white demographic for some time and um whites are very good uh uh corporate uh busybodies

01:39:16.600 and uh they uh don't commit crime and uh you know i i pro-white in that sense you know uh the white

01:39:22.600 people they uh they uh they sure buy a lot of daily wire subsurption so uh you know we'll i'll give

01:39:28.080 them that i could see that i could never possibly see him embrace apolloism sure sure but that is not

01:39:38.100 in the realm of possibilities that's why that's the that that is how radical we must be in order to

01:39:45.380 you know we we can't touch that the old movement needs to be left behind i mean we need to go to a

01:39:53.560 place that can't be assimilated no i agree and i think that we're going there or we're already there

01:40:00.340 so it's not but what i'm saying though is that uh i did only richard drop or no i'm still here okay

01:40:08.780 um something funny is going on with my someone just see i've been sorry about this i've been

01:40:15.260 experimenting with some apps on zoom and so um so that we could have kind of like a jumbotron or people

01:40:23.540 could um uh could add stuff like someone is doing here anyway i'm sorry this is more of a distraction

01:40:31.240 than it is anything in the moment i'll try to um yeah just just uh mark the time code or whatever

01:40:37.720 yeah yeah but yeah no so what i would say is that okay so if they're if they're at the point now where

01:40:44.480 they're denouncing anti-white then we can say well uh they can start speaking in sort of pro-white

01:40:50.380 sentiments that's sort of foreseeable in the offing um but then once they get there the

01:40:56.160 conversation becomes okay well what are some pro-white policies right and pro-white policies

01:41:02.420 would include uh deportations africans having their own homeland this sort of thing right and

01:41:08.500 that's when i think that guys like um you know guys like shapiro i mean i just i wonder how far

01:41:15.840 they'll be willing to go and and we know that um history shows that they will be going they will

01:41:21.020 be willing to go pretty far right uh yeah what what what what one of the things that i uh it was

01:41:29.300 kind of a horrifying thought really that i had when i was writing prophets of doom uh you know like

01:41:34.840 spengler has this notion that the western the western civilization is um what he calls faustian right

01:41:41.300 faustian um what it seems to me that i mean one of the one of the reasons that i don't i don't talk

01:41:50.760 about uh you know jewish stuff a lot is because once you kind of see the pattern of their kind of

01:42:00.900 modus operandi in a way um to me it gets a bit to me it's like a little bit like kind of

01:42:07.300 parochial and like self-serving in a way it's just like kind of you know a version of ethnic

01:42:12.880 narcissism or something like that um if you think of like the true spirits of like what

01:42:19.900 christianism is it's kind of like um you know at the start of the call you you talked about the tech

01:42:26.800 you know a group that we might call the techno globalists right i mean i i would i would say that

01:42:32.900 uh tony blair would belong belong to this sort of group or certain members of the davos crowd

01:42:39.200 and the world economic forum uh or even even even someone like elon musk in his own strange way

01:42:46.220 um and and there's there's this kind of separate um uh kind of intellectual strand that would uh

01:42:57.260 you know i think of people like hg wells or um you know it's it's kind of this uh this kind of

01:43:04.280 genuinely universal genuinely futuristic genuinely technocratic and globalist one world government in

01:43:13.320 fact with a one world and and and the horrifying thought i had really is that i mean maybe not

01:43:20.020 or maybe uh maybe not depending on your point of view but i mean i was wondering like whether

01:43:27.060 that is actually the truth like the true expression of what it means to be quote unquote white is to

01:43:33.680 embody like the kind of um you know the kind of uber technocratic davos vision of the world uh because

01:43:42.160 i i've spent a lot of time looking at looking at uh their materials and like uh you know tony blair

01:43:51.500 institute stuff they don't really talk about like racist issues or like feminism or woke stuff

01:43:56.980 it's all it's all about um you know like picturing what the future will be like in 2050 and like

01:44:04.800 um you know massive all-encompassing digital architecture that triages all of africa all of

01:44:13.700 europe all of america and and like from a certain point of view this is kind of like the whitest thing

01:44:20.580 to be doing right now um and i and i mean like for whatever reason i i don't find i find those

01:44:28.220 things kind of scary but maybe that's because like i'm you know naturally conservative or something

01:44:33.740 uh and not like a true faustian but i i did that thought crossed my mind more than once and um one of

01:44:43.200 the other writers i look at arnold toynbee he kind of leans into that a little bit more and basically

01:44:49.340 says like yeah this is basically like the destiny of europe ultimately is to is to give birth to some

01:44:55.660 new religion right that is like truly global in this way um i mean i i don't like it but just just

01:45:04.280 a thought what do you think richard i yeah yes we're yeah i i doesn't the world ultimately want

01:45:15.460 to come together i mean we're we're speaking over zoom we're we're bringing so many people together

01:45:22.280 through technology in this way um the english language acting as a kind of lingua franca

01:45:28.720 globally speaking and i i i would say at the very least this and and i do think that and i'm not just

01:45:36.780 saying this out of nostalgia i i do think that it's it's kind of inhuman to lose any kind of local

01:45:43.460 character like they're they're just and in these things won't be lost you know there's always going

01:45:49.940 to be some strudel you can get or a wiener schnitzel or uh um a crap or something like i don't i don't

01:45:58.120 think they have a good evolutionary model people like that regionalism so it's it they yeah it survives

01:46:05.320 and in in in many ways it doesn't need us to defend defend it it will defend itself because it is

01:46:11.600 good and it's just deeply human to care about your neighbors and to you know speak in a regional

01:46:18.960 dialect or etc i don't i think those things in a way don't need to be defended um but yeah i mean it

01:46:26.920 it does is the right at this point only presenting itself as a kind of roadblock as a as a speed maybe even

01:46:35.680 a speed bump as just the this nay saying right of you know we don't want you know you're too powerful

01:46:43.900 you you you're you actually are gonna win we're just gonna throw a wrench in your gears to stop you

01:46:49.740 but what is that you know i mean like it i think we all agreed that the right just completely lacks of

01:46:57.240 a vision that that it can present as an alternative so like is it you know globalists of the past have

01:47:07.520 not necessarily been liberals as we use the term today hg wells being an excellent example isn't

01:47:14.620 there just a natural tendency towards you to uniting the planet i mean and i'll offer another example like

01:47:21.240 so much of this duganism which has been taken up by the kremlin in fact in their uh overt propaganda

01:47:30.900 on the web is about multi-polarity so we're gonna have a multi-polar world and there's actually a

01:47:36.200 recent tweet of uh meeting with africans and so on so no one will be in charge and and uh you'll have

01:47:43.780 your own little realm we won't harm each other this just strikes me as moralism dressed up as

01:47:50.540 geopolitics you know it's it's not there's no there's not any reason to believe that that that's

01:47:59.340 actually better or that there won't be expansions of some kind of system whether it's americanism or

01:48:06.040 communism or russianism or africanism uh potentially so it's just this kind of morality of you know you

01:48:14.800 don't tread on me i don't tread on you but all that is is just moral claptrap there's no

01:48:20.480 you see yeah i mean what what while dugan's saying that sort of stuff and while you know

01:48:25.740 people are arguing about you know chinese on twitter or whatever you know i i mean i hate to

01:48:32.260 keep on bringing it back to to tony blair but people don't people don't understand how active this guy is

01:48:38.340 just this week he's met about six different african presidents for example right in each one of those

01:48:44.020 meetings he sets up a deal where he says like listen you pay us some money we'll come in and advise you

01:48:49.800 um and now basically we own the entire digital infrastructure of your country for the next like

01:48:57.220 hundred years um so from a certain point of view it's like well okay yeah tony blair tech you know

01:49:04.840 technocrat and globalist and so on but in a strange way it's also like cecil rhodes do you know what i mean

01:49:10.640 like i mean this is like empire this is like true empire building um it in a way that ensures that

01:49:17.440 you know if if our guys are there like if tony blair's guys are there it's not the chinese running

01:49:24.220 you know literally exactly botswana or chad or you know i mean you name it like they're there they're

01:49:32.160 they're in every single country and that's right just wants to have nostalgia the right is like oh the

01:49:38.020 the great british empire of yesteryear it was fantastic we just don't have anything like that

01:49:43.640 today they're just engaging in nostalgia whereas someone like tony blair is actually building the

01:49:48.820 future right but but it's not just building it he gets to it like none of those things that they're

01:49:56.300 not just doing it as charity they control the infrastructure and they basically then through the

01:50:01.940 backdoor control the policies of that country and and so when he wants to bring in his you know uh you

01:50:09.980 know multi multi national digital id stuff it's all there it's all like he already owns the the network

01:50:19.160 if that makes any sense right and he's got his ngos on the ground you know to uh quote unquote advise the

01:50:26.220 various governments i mean it's all this stuff is not that hidden they do it in broad daylight because

01:50:31.220 nobody bloody nobody watches them nobody cares nobody you know everybody is everybody's looking

01:50:37.240 at this thing over here so yeah um you know and i i kind of i kind of oscillate between thinking like

01:50:43.200 this is like you know watching how like evil operates or whatever but also like i have a certain

01:50:49.440 degree of admiration that you know these are people who are you know they're doing the genuine

01:50:55.860 world building that um i imagine their 19th century forebears would kind of in some strange way approve of

01:51:04.940 does that make sense absolutely yes i mean look mark has been very you know outrageous you could say

01:51:13.860 in in talking about this as a global project i mean we're a global people we need a global project

01:51:19.980 and we need a global religion and this this is always deeply appealed to me and much more so than

01:51:28.980 any sort of nationalism which does seem to be just retreating back to some older paradigm that is just

01:51:37.460 kind of obviously outmoded and where the the only like chance that you can succeed is also dangerous

01:51:44.980 it's also dangerous richard i mean as we're seeing today it's dangerous sort of petty nationalism is

01:51:50.260 dangerous uh how do you mean that exactly well i mean uh just the example of the uh conflict with

01:51:58.060 russia right i mean you you know you say uh it would be better or you have said it would be better if

01:52:03.980 they were part of nato i think um so i think it or something along those lines no doubt they never

01:52:11.760 would have been invaded if ukraine were part of nato 10 years ago yeah and there's no doubt that

01:52:15.360 it would never have been invaded yeah i think that like a one world government it should be a kind of

01:52:19.640 ideal to be honest with you i don't i think it would be resisted of course but i think that that um

01:52:25.900 i think that that should be the goal and i think in a way it is it's always kind of the de facto reality

01:52:33.360 in the sense that you always have a dominant global power uh and then you have other weaker powers that

01:52:39.460 are servile and some that are resistant to it but that ultimately you know history shows that it you

01:52:46.180 know for a period the greeks dominated than the romans that there is a kind of uh you know unipolarity to

01:52:52.920 the world um and but i think it should just be i think it could become more uh expansive explicit

01:53:02.200 useful um helpful and uh sustainable and and have uh bigger uh and bolder goals uh that uh would

01:53:12.820 benefit you know all of humanity essentially yeah i mean i i can remember my own kind of ron paul days

01:53:19.940 when when i was a lot younger because so much you know i'm a young gen xer but i i am a gen xer at heart

01:53:25.560 and so much of my own political consciousness came out of opposing uh george w bush and opposing the

01:53:35.600 iraq war and so on and i i think i was right to do that and and i think most of the critiques of the

01:53:41.720 iraq war were correct and so on but at the heart beyond the critique at the heart of the vision

01:53:48.440 was a kind of ron paul multi-polarity clap trap not dissimilar to dugan's clap trap which is basically

01:53:57.620 well you know no we we won't have military bases abroad and we'll be nice to everyone we'll just

01:54:04.360 kind of trade and maybe maybe we could have some protectionism but mostly just about free free love

01:54:10.660 around the world basically and america it's big bad america won't be bombing people anymore and and

01:54:17.300 etc and you know there there's certain kernels of truth to this i i think the america being a being

01:54:23.440 an american we i am in some ways complicit with the deaths of children in yemen and and and the deaths

01:54:31.820 of a million people in iraq i i get that but i also am a citizen of this empire and i recognize that

01:54:41.080 without america enforcing basically global waterways and enforcing a certain kind of rules-based order

01:54:52.160 as they say that the world would be a much worse place and that you take away the american empire and

01:55:00.400 you don't uncover free love and friendship of the peoples you uncover chaos and petty nationalist

01:55:08.620 violence and uh and other things you also leave open a vacuum for other empires to insert their

01:55:18.620 vision of the world i mean islam i i don't think has a compelling vision to intelligent people but it

01:55:27.240 absolutely has a global vision uh china ditto i i don't think the chinese way of life is going to be

01:55:36.340 uh is not particularly compelling there's no kind of chinese dream or or chinese u2 that's that's

01:55:45.160 inspiring people of other nations uh but they absolutely have some sort of vision of a chinese

01:55:51.980 order and i don't want to live in that world i definitely don't want to live in the islamic one

01:55:58.300 i don't want to live in the chinese one i don't want to live in the ron paul chaos globe that would be

01:56:04.120 created once we remove american military bases and all you know all things said and done i i don't

01:56:12.380 think the american global order is actually that bad and there are at the very least just tangible

01:56:20.360 benefits that we all have and and i think as i get older and you know i i understand this more and

01:56:29.580 more and i i i hope a kind of more mature and nuanced view of this it's it's not that i want to be a

01:56:35.880 shill for america or shill for biden but i do recognize that america is hegemonic for a reason

01:56:44.780 and that it's not all that bad and you know yes we should offer something even better but to offer a

01:56:55.820 purely negative vision of let's tear down the current world order and you know and and free

01:57:03.820 love and friendship will rise in its place that's just pure silliness

01:57:08.360 yeah yeah i mean this is this is something that as i was writing uh prophets of doom it really um

01:57:18.080 i was thinking of like some of the arguments that certain nationalists have made um i mean sorry to

01:57:26.080 name names but greg johnson is somebody who who springs to mind where where it's almost like they have this

01:57:33.380 idea that there are going to be all the different nations of the world and each each group gets their

01:57:42.360 own little country and they're all going to leave each other alone and i i've always wanted to root

01:57:49.560 my analysis in in in realism right i mean that's that's that's the thing that i think is really

01:57:54.600 important because if it's not realistic it's not going to happen right and i look across history and

01:58:00.840 think look when when was this time where you just had all the different nations of the world who left

01:58:06.440 each other alone i mean i i i just don't see that i i there's always and it it's always the rise and

01:58:13.660 fall of empires i mean even even the nations of europe that you think of i mean germany didn't exist

01:58:19.280 until the 1850s italy didn't exist as a nation for you know hundreds of years um even france really up

01:58:28.640 until napoleon didn't really exist as france per se um you know pretty much the only country that

01:58:38.300 existed as a as a quote-unquote nation state recognizably was probably brissom which was a

01:58:46.120 which which was a which was an island right right an island and then an empire yeah but that was an

01:58:52.020 empire and of course there was a huge i mean as a shakespeare scholar i can i can speak to this a

01:58:58.280 little bit um shakespeare himself was it was involved in basically national myth making yeah

01:59:04.820 whereby they had to they had to incorporate the different elements that the scottish and the welsh

01:59:11.380 and they that they drew on they drew on uh certain myths that uh likes of jeffrey of monmouth had

01:59:19.480 written and um you know they they create and they you know he wrote he slandered my namesake as as we

01:59:26.280 know but but but but you understand yeah yeah i mean yeah but all of this is myth is national

01:59:33.800 myth making right that you have like good kings like henry the fifth and bad kings like richard

01:59:39.520 the third and so on which were which were basically encouraging people to think of the the country as

01:59:46.440 a nation um you know you get like guys like walter raleigh who like literally literally writing kind of

01:59:53.040 like proto-nationalist propaganda in a way saying like well why should we have like frank products

01:59:59.380 over here we need to enact like kind of keynesian and protectionism before that had been invented you

02:00:05.380 know uh but all of that is in all of that then um basically is the kind of uh preparatory ground for

02:00:16.180 um britain as a country to enter the world or england as a nation to enter the world stage

02:00:23.860 right to enter i mean this is how like spengler and toinby and some of these writers they talk about

02:00:29.220 nations uh or people if you want entering world history right um toinby has this very strange idea

02:00:39.220 that uh there are these periods of withdrawal so he argues that for a certain like a couple of

02:00:46.900 hundred years there uh england as a nation withdrew into itself in order to build up this kind of

02:00:54.380 collective identity that we're talking about and then at a certain moment it was ready to burst out

02:01:00.660 and enter world history um this this is really the only scope for actual nationalism that we as we'd

02:01:10.000 recognize it uh you know kind of existing in the in the overall scheme of civilizational history

02:01:16.540 yeah there's a kind of short-run phenomena that um um inculcates uh they called it a bassia you know

02:01:25.020 a kind of collective feeling but it's only a it's only a small period that that that happens and it's

02:01:32.300 usually because there are some natural frontiers like being an island or like having um like a river

02:01:38.600 or mountains or something that stop an invader coming in right i would take this further actually

02:01:46.280 because i i would so i i have two points one's geographic but i'll talk about the the hegemonic

02:01:54.600 one as well i i think the paradigm of the nation state that emerged in the 19th century i think i

02:02:00.420 think was connected to a certain kind of uh romanticism and it was a reaction to other forms

02:02:07.380 of empire i mean german nationalism was a reaction to napoleon's invasion um uh legendarily but i i think

02:02:14.280 actually in fact um you know uh beethoven wrote his uh third symphony it was dedicated to napoleon the

02:02:21.560 eroica symphony and then he he supposedly was scratching it out of the uh published uh scores

02:02:28.340 after the um after uh the uh emperor invaded uh so it's a it's a reaction to empire but then also

02:02:37.180 nationalism can emerge as a a kind of underling of empire so i i've dwelled on this quite a bit um

02:02:46.560 in in in previous talks but uh so much of the that paradigm of the nation state was in wilsonianism

02:02:54.100 after the first world war and i think it was in many ways a kind of counter vision to bolshevism so

02:03:02.880 after the first world war in the paris peace conference of 1919 mostly remember due to the

02:03:09.800 versailles peace treaty but it was a larger conference where the world was redrawn um there

02:03:16.320 there was bolshevism kind of a over the way and wilson you know who was a professor an intellectual

02:03:24.540 highly sophisticated person was offering a competing vision which was an american order with the nation

02:03:31.440 state as it as it's kind of functioning pieces to it and so poland for instance was revived um uh you had

02:03:41.900 other nation states that were created the um kingdom of croats and serbs and and all of these kinds of

02:03:48.900 things but all of those those things were only possible within an american order so they were only

02:03:55.560 possible underneath an imperial structure they and yes they had the everything everything that's an

02:04:03.860 ideal has some basis in reality obviously i believe there's a a sense of checkness that that exists and

02:04:11.500 there was a sense of a concept of of germanness that existed you know well before the germany was

02:04:21.440 unified through prussia um so there's a real basis for everything but but there these things can only

02:04:28.020 come into reality in a certain way when when when powers in a way desire it and are willing to

02:04:35.840 articulate it as such and so all of this talk of of nationalism it's like you're they're they're

02:04:42.300 embracing these these paradigms that historically only came into being in imperial scenarios

02:04:49.240 and so they're they're just they're kind of in say i i i would kind of suggest that there's no real

02:04:57.720 basis for these things and and they're thus by singing the praises of the nation or something or

02:05:03.360 talking about how we would all respect one another don't tread on me i won't tread on you

02:05:07.500 it is just kind of intellectual masturbation at the end of the day because it doesn't it's blind

02:05:14.020 to its historical reality and it's blind to the just the power realities that have to exist

02:05:20.800 in these cases no i agree i agree i agree with everything you said there yeah spot on

02:05:26.980 russia is also interesting i mean what what is russia's and it's it's a huge geographic space

02:05:33.920 that has to be managed by um some kind of imperial force and and you have to push people

02:05:41.540 uh all over the place in order to kind of protect the borders of of this big thing very very similar

02:05:48.980 it's russia and the united states are are um very similar in that way they're kind of inherently

02:05:54.420 imperial um we had this idea of you know go west young man you know keep going to the frontier so that

02:06:02.200 we can control this continent and it's it's it's a very different perspective to say a a prussian

02:06:11.960 who's like you know we need we need to guard our little plot here and we've got enemies on all sides

02:06:17.100 and so on even you know frederick jackson turner pointed this out and i i think it's one of the most

02:06:22.160 brilliant observations i've ever read in fact it's that the frontier that that word frontier which

02:06:29.820 exists in plenty of european languages it means the opposite in american english that it does in

02:06:37.440 in its european context so if you think of like um what is it um uh doctors without borders uh it's

02:06:46.100 it's medicine medicine sans frontières they mean it in the sense of doctors going across borders

02:06:53.400 that notion of the frontier is a line that separates you from a potential hostile enemy

02:06:58.780 in american english frontier means the exact opposite frontier means an open space that you can go out

02:07:08.420 into frontier in the american context means an open space that you can go out into and conquer

02:07:15.660 as opposed to a line that separates you from your enemy so there in that sense uh the american

02:07:23.400 mentality was fundamentally different than a european mentality and you know and you can view

02:07:30.080 that through language so anyway that that's that that's kind of going in a different direction but um

02:07:37.800 but i i do think the united states and russia kind of have similar uh sentiments in that sense

02:07:44.200 yeah absolutely yeah i'd i'd agree i've talked about the frontier the frontier as a fundamental american

02:07:54.340 idea um as well i mean what one of the what a huge i mean i'm gonna i'm gonna have to go in a minute by

02:08:00.120 the way richard because my i have to do my show but um one of the things that has really uh struck me

02:08:06.460 is about a difference uh between europeans and americans when it comes when it comes to the idea of the

02:08:12.820 frontier is the whole is the whole idea of white flight which we were talking about earlier on right

02:08:18.940 yeah this idea that you just get up and leave and go and lead somewhere else uh i i read a statistic

02:08:25.440 before that the average american i think moves 14 times in their lifetime which which seems like

02:08:31.880 extraordinarily high to me um whereas of course in this country you just can't do that right you have

02:08:38.600 to like you know this village which has been here for like 800 years i mean there isn't another one

02:08:44.540 you can't just pick up on you you can't just drive 200 miles down there there is no 200 miles doing so

02:08:51.220 you have to kind of stay here um i'm not saying white flight doesn't happen in europe obviously it does

02:08:56.180 i'm just saying that it's um it seems like a fundamentally american idea and i don't a lot a lot of what i think

02:09:03.280 happens at the moment and i this is why i think there's uh i guess increased anti-american sentiment

02:09:10.440 in europe at the moment is that because america is a is a kind of global hegemon in a strange way

02:09:16.900 it exports its own forms tries to like we start reproducing itself yeah in in places where some of

02:09:24.680 its kind of basic assumptions are alien um and uh this is kind of what i think this has been happening

02:09:33.340 where it's trying to remake europe in its own in its own image in a way uh but yeah anyway i go on

02:09:43.760 sorry no johnny i i i i i'm currently in italy i grew up in the u.s but i moved to italy because my

02:09:49.940 family's here and i can attest to that that you sort of see this amorphous blob of like american

02:09:56.060 ideology being imported and it's like completely alien to the continent does that make sense

02:10:01.640 just like some of the political ideologies even even in the right wing here you just see them sort

02:10:08.560 of like importing this like american brand of ideology and it's completely strange it's very

02:10:14.160 strange because it hasn't taken but they're making attempts to do it yeah i mean and the most the

02:10:21.820 most visible one is the is is is the racial politics i mean especially in a country like italy or germany

02:10:27.260 whatever the the racial politics of those places or even in this country um are different you know we

02:10:34.640 don't have the the kind of it's just a different um just a different understanding of all of these

02:10:42.520 things so when that when they start getting in when they start being imported here um it has a kind

02:10:50.720 of different flavor and i i think that's it basically ends up with a kind of resentment of a you know it's

02:10:56.280 just like well this is not us this is being brought here by you know uh by the hegemon which is which is

02:11:03.680 why which is why i actually think that you as time goes on we'll see even more increased anti-american

02:11:09.060 sentiment from um the europeans as they get less out less ostensibly out of the deal um yeah

02:11:17.340 they need to sort of get out from under in europe they really need to get out from under

02:11:22.500 because i mean it seems like being america's friend is worse than being its enemy at this point if

02:11:28.340 you're sitting in europe quite frankly so i just well i mean from the american point of view there has to

02:11:34.620 be a better offering to to something i agree yeah but i i kind of disagree with this i i think we're

02:11:40.600 i i think there are a lot of there there are many forces that are bringing us together i i think the

02:11:48.380 russia ukraine conflict is is certainly one of them um i i think we're gonna do this together

02:11:55.860 actually and i i i think there i i do think that there needs to be something new but um i i i don't

02:12:05.180 i i i've heard this as well from from right wingers and and so on of you know if only europe could get

02:12:12.540 out from under america then it would just be like crazy nationalism would just immediately rise or think

02:12:19.040 i i i don't i don't buy that and i you know you have to you kind of have to wonder about europe i

02:12:25.940 mean understandably and and i think we should show a lot of sympathy towards the absolute devastation

02:12:32.820 of both world wars uh on the european population um the the russian experience is incredible a very

02:12:41.860 large percentage of young men through a few generations just don't simply exist

02:12:47.760 uh but why is it that you haven't been able to get out from under american idea americanism i mean

02:12:56.040 is it just the military bases or is it also the fact that we're in your heads and that we offer a

02:13:02.900 more even today and and i've i've said i've stated flatly that i think we're we're losing it we're we're

02:13:09.280 we're not you know we're we're too inter returning to ourselves and so on but like there there's there

02:13:15.680 needs to be what is the european vision that is more powerful than americanism what is it

02:13:23.520 right i mean i could tell you i mean the leadership here i mean really isn't better than the leadership

02:13:29.620 in the u.s i mean the political class here is just utterly incompetent these people have no vision

02:13:33.880 um they just sort of it's sort of a very sterile type of ideology quite frankly and um yeah i just don't

02:13:42.880 know where it's headed especially italy um it's sort of depressing sometimes just watching these

02:13:46.820 people on television i i always um i i'm gonna have to go in a minute but i always remember reading

02:13:52.900 the uh a neocon book from back in the early 2000s um by a chap called robert kagan i'm sure you're

02:14:02.040 familiar with it it's called uh mars and venus right yeah um it was paradise and power of paradise and power

02:14:07.720 it was called where where it basically argued that since the second world war europeans have got to

02:14:13.400 live um uh in in a post-modern paradise right um which is underpinned by american power which means

02:14:22.680 that americans have to live in the real world of like realpolitik or even you know macked politic

02:14:29.240 like power politics um and european basically just gets it like sit around being decadent basically

02:14:36.800 talking about whatever and going to anti-war process and so on um now even though i'm not a

02:14:43.560 neocon um uh i do think there's still an underlying truth to that analysis and you know to use the

02:14:52.340 language of spengler or time b europe as a whole has basically withdrawn from world history uh since

02:15:00.960 the second world war and it hasn't re-entered the stage yet i mean i don't know if it will re-enter the

02:15:06.020 stage but um you know at some point maybe europe will be back and we'll we'll come back to world

02:15:12.180 history but at the moment the stage is america's and you know to the extent that any european nations

02:15:19.040 have a place on it i mean you know that there's there's a kind of bit part for various british

02:15:24.640 players i suppose as a as a kind of supporting act or whatever but uh really this is america's show at

02:15:30.860 the moment um so i mean in my mind the political leadership of uh most of europe you might as well

02:15:40.400 be talking about uh i don't know the the african political leadership under the under the british

02:15:47.020 empire or something like that right they're not you know these are the leaders yeah these are

02:15:52.700 spineless people a lot of them quite frankly yeah well i would you know the other thing i would say

02:15:59.460 too is that um i mean i think that america is i i think it's correct we are the empire in the world

02:16:06.300 as you've described um and i think that we're also the kind of natural seat of the next

02:16:12.780 phase or transformation of the american empire but of a kind of western global empire right so i like to

02:16:21.040 think of us as not um exclusively americanists and um and i like to think also of europe kind of

02:16:29.360 sharing our destiny but of us being part of the same kind of global destiny as it were

02:16:34.920 um but that's you know i don't know if that and i don't think that that's just rhetoric i think that's

02:16:40.860 i think that it would be intelligent for us to kind of include all those elements and to kind of break

02:16:46.520 down those barriers and to include them as part of our project i mean i think it would be a kind of

02:16:51.840 sound intelligent and diplomatic uh gesture certainly um but i also i think it'd be a kind

02:16:59.260 of reconnecting with our brothers in europe um and uh i i'm against uh so in other words the

02:17:08.120 apollonian project as it were is a globalist project so it's something that goes beyond america

02:17:13.460 now we're americans uh primarily um you know there are european apollonians as well um and again this

02:17:21.560 could be the sort of seat of change or transformation that we're seeking um but uh i you know i if if it

02:17:29.700 were to happen in europe through some fluke or uh then i would be happy i would be equally happy with

02:17:36.940 that to be honest with you

02:17:38.700 yeah

02:17:39.480 you

RadixJournal - March 23, 2023

The Inevitable Empire

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