On this episode of Thick & Thin, we discuss the Trump Town Hall Debate, the January 6th abortion ban, and the current state of the Democratic Party. We also talk about why AOC is so dumb, and why we should be worried about her.
00:00:00.000I don't know if we've talked about this, JF, but I can really strongly sense a major backlash coming, and it's going to be a very stupid backlash, but it is going to be a populist one.
00:00:14.760And just to kind of see what I'm talking about, like, if we look at the abortion section of the Donald Trump town hall last night, and he was basically saying, it's very clear that Donald Trump doesn't actually want to ban abortion.
00:00:32.760I mean, you know, and like, and he's almost, he's, he almost, it's like, how did I end up in the situation where this is my legacy? It's a very weird thing. And he also takes credit, of course, for ending abortion, although perhaps he should, in fact, because he appointed those judges. And, but he was like, I got it done. People were trying for 40 years, they just couldn't do it. And then, then I did it.
00:01:01.020Like, it's the most, like, self-centered person ever. But anyway, he said that now we got rid of Roe v. Wade. So now we have a bargaining chip. Now, now we have leverage to negotiate. So what that's, and then he, he was asked many times, like, will you, by Caitlin Collins, will you sign an abortion ban of six weeks or something like that? And he just won't answer it.
00:01:27.800Um, but so, so, so I think in, in this way, like Trump is almost behind the times. I, I think there's, I think if you look at these situations like January 6th or some of these abortion bans that are going through, some, some of the kind of rage that's simmering.
00:01:45.800And also the, the inability of the liberals to actually lead, you know, like they, they just want to, one thing I noticed after this town hall to bring, to bring it back to mundane things that are happening today, is that like someone, so much of the liberal criticism is just so dumb.
00:02:08.360You know, like, you know, like I saw a clip of AOC and she's saying, you know, by allowing Donald Trump onto CNN, you endangered a victim of sexual violence.
00:02:19.360So she's, her argument is literally that Jean Carroll is going to be attacked or something because of a town hall debate.
00:02:32.040Like she can't make a serious argument that isn't about some personal harm avoidance of a victim.
00:02:41.820In this case, in this case, women, that's even how she understood J6.
00:02:45.380I'm not even sure someone like, like, I, I think that J6 was in fact a threat to democracy, you know, as we know it, at least it was very democratic in its way, but it's a threat to the status quo democracy.
00:03:00.700I'm not even sure AOC or these, these types of politicians really understand it, like beyond the personal level of, there were some guys outside my office and oh my God, they wanted to rate me or something.
00:03:15.840Like she didn't, like she didn't understand the level at which it, it, it actually was a shock to the system and an, an embarrassment for the United States.
00:03:29.080She can actually wrap her mind around that.
00:03:32.240And, and so when I see things like this and I, and I do think there's some hegemonic liberals who do get it, but when I see like liberals like this,
00:03:44.080I, I tend to think that they actually are going to lose to a bombastic, vulgar right-wing backlash.
00:03:55.640And I'm not saying this is coming from people like you or, or me or, or Mark or et cetera.
00:04:02.240I think it's not, I think it's, it's, it's coming from people well down the IQ scale from us, well up the Christian scale from us.
00:04:13.040And well, well up the willingness to use violence scale.
00:04:21.580And I, I sometimes think they're going to win.
00:04:25.220Well, I, I, I'm not going to necessarily cheer for it, but I almost, I, I get to points where I almost want them to win because at the very least.
00:04:36.200Like it would kind of clean the slate and, and also like, I don't, I guess I am a bit of a moral moralist kind of like you on some level, like either you're going to be hegemonic and you're going to know what it takes to win or you're not.
00:04:53.720And you're going to lose and you might end up dead.
00:04:55.900Like either you're willing to do that or you're not.
00:05:00.040And if you're just going to sit around and do all this silly, like harm avoidance talk, or like we need to protect Jean Carroll at this terrible, terrible moment she's facing.
00:05:13.040I'm just like, well, I think you deserve to lose if this is how you think.
00:05:17.280And that's the other side of the middle of our own disappointment, because I cannot recover the excitement for Trump that I had in 2016, but the left will not be able to recover their hate for Trump that they had when they voted Joe Biden.
00:05:35.120So it's, it's all stems, it's all stems on whether the left is capable of frustrating themselves enough so that they want it as hard as they wanted it in 2020.
00:05:49.980I think that there's a kind of emotional exhaustion on both sides of the spectrum.
00:05:53.700Um, and, you know, and I think especially, uh, of course, the events of 2016 and 17 were, that was a kind of emotional crescendo, both on the right and the left.
00:06:07.060Um, but I think that ultimately the consequences of both are frustrated and disappointed and there's a kind of exhaustion that's taken place.
00:06:15.100Um, but what's been revealed too, is I think that they're, you know, basically I think the left is also in a kind of, um, is in a, is, was initially in a kind of denial mode and now is in a kind of acceptance mode where they understand, um, that there is a right wing now, uh, or that there is a right wing, right.
00:06:36.060And that the right wing thinks radically different than they do.
00:06:39.900Uh, like the cat is out of the bag, so to speak.
00:06:43.400Um, so I think that they're, they, they're adjusting to a kind of new reality.
00:06:48.340And I think that they're realizing as well, that they can't just sort of be shrill about everything and sort of shout at the right.
00:06:56.320And that will sort of silence the right.
00:06:58.800Um, so I think that there is a, a kind of, um, but I think as part of that is a kind of, uh, collective exhaustion, but also a kind of collective depression.
00:07:09.140I think as well, I think that the society itself, whether on the right or left understands that the society on some level has failed.
00:07:20.560So I think I said, I think that the left also sort of accepts this or understands this, that it's, you know, that the, the future, both sides see the future in a kind of, in, in a bleak light.
00:07:53.580And I think that term is a correct term.
00:07:55.640We can feel a kind of collective spirit in the society, right?
00:07:59.700It's not just, you know, uh, individuals that have feelings.
00:08:03.400It's a whole society that has a feeling.
00:08:05.900And I think that the feeling or tone of the society now is one that's kind of, it's, it's one of, uh, uh, depression, denial and acceptance.
00:08:16.340It's, it's like going through these kinds of stages of grief, in other words.
00:08:20.840And I think that the left is kind of entering into a, a stage of acceptance where they're like, okay, there's this other force now in the society and the worldview is radically different.
00:08:32.400And they're basically every sort of like fantasy or dream that I had of the future of us all kind of holding hands and being this happy multicultural society that doesn't seem like it's going to happen because the right is basically just saying, you know what?
00:09:00.740And people are not going to get along in the way that the left fantasized effectively.
00:09:06.780So I think that they're dealing with these sort of dashed hopes or these broken dreams.
00:09:11.480And, and on the right, I think there's a kind of similar thing going on too, because I think that the right also held onto those beliefs as well, if to a lesser extent.
00:09:21.100So they're, they're also going through that mourning process, but they also, the right also is in a kind of mode of, um, struggling, right?
00:09:30.020Uh, trying to like break free from a liberal system or whatever the case may be.
00:09:35.000And, uh, so there is that, uh, angst or suffering on the right as well.
00:09:39.600Um, and I, I do think that the right is, uh, more active or is more in, I don't think, I think moralized is a wrong time, wrong term as I'm describing.
00:09:50.200Um, but, um, I think it is more, it, it is, uh, moving, whereas I think that the left is kind of broken, you know what I'm saying?
00:10:02.180Um, that's just a kind of feeling, even though it remains through a kind of inertia, you know, in the real world, uh, outside of the kind of internet world, it remains the sort of, a kind of dominant force.
00:10:14.440Uh, you know, the, you know, the taboos of the left still, uh, govern the society.
00:10:20.020But increasingly, of course, that that's going to fall away.
00:10:23.480Um, I mean, that's, that's my general sense of it.
00:10:26.640Um, I, you know, as far as Elon Musk goes, I mean, I, I, I, I, I see, um, JF posting on Twitter and I kind of like the fact that he's, he seems like, uh, energized because I like Jeff, JF, he seems like he's like a good guy.
00:10:42.440But, um, so I'm excited that he's happy about, uh, these, uh, about new developments.
00:10:48.900Uh, Musk, I think that in probably, I'm sure Richard shares his view, Richard, I think is more skeptical of Musk than I am.
00:10:57.000Um, I'm, I, I don't know that I would, as far as Musk is concerned, I, I just, uh, um, the jury's still out.
00:11:04.080I mean, I think that a lot of us are kind of like, well, you know, Trump was, uh, such a kind of, uh, uh, you know, illusion or, uh, chimera, uh, that many of us are, are still, um, you know, sort of, uh, I don't know, uh, you know, once bitten, twice shy sort of thing.
00:11:26.180So I, I think many people are afraid to kind of put too much hope, uh, into, you know, especially one figure to kind of change the society in a positive direction.
00:11:36.880Um, you know, and if, if, uh, if Musk, for example, um, has a very kind of particular view of society that's distinct from our own, um, you know, that could end up being a kind of bad thing.
00:11:50.120Ultimately, um, you know, and we look at Russia, for example, and we see that, uh, Putin has a very kind of particular vision for that society.
00:11:58.540And, uh, you know, in what he, what his regime does is it basically cancels out, you know, forces or energies or voices both on the right and the left.
00:12:09.600Right. Uh, and, and it's basically Putin's Russia and Putin's Russia is not, is, is kind of far from ideal, um, from what a lot, a lot of people on this call, you know, would want or imagine.
00:12:23.860Um, but, you know, part of it is because he's holding together a multicultural country and, um, you know, he's, and it's, it's impossible for him ultimately to be our guy, whatever that means.
00:12:38.320Um, and I think that, um, I think you understand my point that it's, it's, I think that there, well, I think that, you know, I think that some optimism is fine and called for.
00:12:50.200I mean, certainly in some ways things have improved in terms of free speech.
00:12:55.960Um, I think that there is also grounds for caution, uh, or, um, you know, sort of guarded optimism or, you know, looking at this, this situation critically and seeing really what Musk is, for example, you know, and of course he's only one, um, force out there or one development,
00:13:16.980but I think a, a, a pretty meaningful or significant force or development anyways, end of, uh, rant.
00:13:25.900Um, to, to go back a little bit to the, the zeitgeist notion, um, I think we're in a, in a very, you know, particular place because what are some of the biggest applause lines of Donald Trump?
00:13:46.980And, you know, and getting back to, we were talking about, you know, an hour or so ago of how it's, it's almost like we're back in 2016 and we've forgotten that he was president at some point.
00:13:58.840You know, um, his big applause lines are like our country is dead.
00:14:14.720And yes, he's, yeah, you're a nasty, nasty woman.
00:14:18.040Um, now granted he is kind of saying you have hope with me or I alone can fix it or he's, he's, he's, he's offering some kind of answer, but it's interesting that those are the applause lines.
00:14:34.600Like that, that's how you motivate people more and the conventional Republicans who want to just talk about like, well, corporate profits are up this year.
00:14:47.720Uh, so, uh, we're all doing better because of it.
00:14:51.980Um, and so there's a, there is a kind of like violent anger over and depression on the right, but I think there's, there's also an issue of like the absence of a visionary utopia on the left.
00:15:10.800And, and, and I think, and I'll, I'll describe that in two different ways.
00:15:15.160So I think in a, in this weird way, if anyone actually has utopian vision on the left, it's Joe Biden.
00:15:26.420It's not like he imagines, you know, techno future or something like that, but he basically imagines a functioning middle-class America a lot like his childhood.
00:15:40.660And, you know, factories, production, you know, intact families, et cetera.
00:15:51.820I think what I see from the far are progressives or something really is an absence of a vision.
00:16:00.520And I listened to a lot of their stuff.
00:16:03.140I'm not just stereotyping them or caricaturing them or something like that is, as you said,
00:16:10.480it is pure harm avoidance and pure, in a weird way, reactionary qualities, like getting really worried about someone like being mean to trans kids or something.
00:16:28.620And I, I just, you can't ultimately really win with that.
00:16:33.680Like you've got to offer something just extremely compelling and just, just moving, emotionally moving about this destruction of the human person, which they keep pursuing.
00:16:49.080Otherwise it's just like protect trans kids or something.
00:16:54.140You know, it's just, it's just, it's just fucking like kindergarten teachers, effectively.
00:17:10.840We know this, you know, to build the, like, I'm just going to quite frankly say it.
00:17:15.840You're going to have to tear some things down.
00:17:18.720You're going to have to break new ground and you're going to probably have to kill some people in order to build this bright new utopian future that's promised.
00:17:27.980Every leftist agreed with that, even if they wouldn't say it.
00:18:39.140And they're, they're not going to, and I'm not, there, there is more, I mean, there's no question there's an asymmetry in terms of like the academic or theoretical left and the right.
00:18:51.360I mean, in the sense that the asymmetry is so great, like there's not even, there's not much of a right of, of like high theory to even speak of.
00:19:03.140Much like there isn't a right in the realm of art to, to, to speak of, you know, we interest some important counter examples, but it's a tiny amount.
00:19:14.980Um, so I guess, this is my other thing, and this is another theme that I've stressed is, and, and Twitter has something to do with it.
00:20:35.180I mean, it's, it's kind of everywhere and it actually is a coherent language and it's
00:20:41.200an intergenerational, uh, international symbolic language.
00:20:46.440And it is powerful and it does derive from Judaism and even things that even pre-Judaism and Christianity.
00:20:57.600And it is a, it is a very powerful system.
00:21:00.240Now you, you could disagree with that or not, but I mean, that, that is the claim.
00:21:06.280But what I see as an even more powerful force than like Genesis or Steven Spielberg or Stan Lee at this point is this like creeping nothingness in the world.
00:21:22.180This like sludge culture, social media, live streaming, Gen Z emoting, the, the absence, like music being purely appreciated as background music for a video game.
00:21:40.360Which is another interesting trend, Gen Z not having music.
00:21:45.020Like, I mean, I, I, I, I, there's this, I think in some ways our whole society has kind of lost its symbolic order.
00:21:55.020And I think that's actually a huge threat as well.
00:22:01.860And, uh, you know, where it's, it's not even that like, oh, what's wrong with Gen Z there, they're a communist or something.
00:22:08.660I would say they're not even communist.
00:22:11.320Like to be a communist would make them like interest.
00:22:19.300You know, like it's, there's, there's nothing there.
00:22:22.480They might say they're a communist, like, like Haas or whatever says he's a communist.
00:22:27.840I mean, he's, you know, it's just, it's all sludge.
00:22:32.120And so the society, a technological society can't even properly organize itself and tell you what's high and what's low and what's left and right.
00:22:43.240And we're just kind of emerging into this, this like endless kind of fracturing.
00:22:49.680Um, so I, I think these are, these are kind of the way that, that I would stress it.
00:22:55.160I, I think they're, so just to reiterate real quick, there are three things.
00:22:58.320There's this incoming right-wing backlash, which is going to be as violent as it is stupid.
00:23:05.780It's not going to involve us for better and for worse, mostly for better, I would say.
00:23:11.640Hopefully we won't be the victims of it.
00:23:14.200There's the liberals who there's, they've lost their sense of utopia and they've, they're, it's all harm avoidance.
00:23:23.700And then there's like the, the system itself, like the, the order, including a symbolic order that can manage millions upon millions of people just kind of fracturing and being dominated by sludge and anti-culture.
00:23:41.000I, I think this is, this is my like super bird's eye view of, of the situation.
00:23:48.020And so I would even start to ask questions real quick.
00:25:57.540The sludge is what happens when the system is oscillating too quick, trying to change direction too quick.
00:26:06.420And it's the, it's the ultimate consequence of eternal progressivism, which is at some point, if you have progressivism, but you don't have a vector of direction, you are just popping like, like a little ball in a ping pong table, chaotically moving in all directions at the same time.
00:26:25.960I think it's what we, from a bird's eye view, we have to see the left doing this and we have to catch them in their chaos.
00:26:33.100We have to, to render their actions impossible to pursue any direction while we establish a wider direction for the right.