RadixJournal - The Self-Defeating Drive for ＂De-Radicalization＂

00:00:00.000 So the other big story in the news, maybe not national level significance, but certainly for our little corner of the Internet, was an interview on ABC News with a woman by the name of Samantha, who was a former member of the organization that was once known as Identity Europa is now known as the American Identity Movement.

00:00:24.460 And, of course, Richard, you have a kind of close and personal history with Identity Europa.

00:00:31.920 I'm going to read a few excerpts of this first and then just certainly closer than the rest of us.

00:00:37.220 But I'm going to read a few excerpts here and we'll just kind of look at this because it is interesting in terms of kind of exposing the underbelly of some of the movements that were kind of adjacent to two.

00:00:51.400 Some interesting quotes. I never thought of myself as a racist person, but I was.

00:00:57.160 When you're in there, you think that you just know the truth, the truth that white people are more intellectually capable than other people. 0.76

00:01:04.000 White people were the best. I started to believe that there's some sort of white genocide happening.

00:01:09.020 I started to use the phrasing and the language that there is an overwhelming majority of Jewish people in media and banking.

00:01:15.800 And you start to ask yourself, are Jewish people white?

00:01:19.060 White. The piece goes on to say, have something hateful about identifying with with Evropian heritage.

00:01:30.560 But the I was muted, but that is high comedy.

00:01:34.720 What you just read.

00:01:35.380 Maybe she maybe Samantha is actually like the ultimate sleeper agent. 0.98

00:01:45.140 Like she's going using the mass media against itself by dropping all these truth bombs and being like, it's almost like you start thinking there's a Jewish agenda in media. 0.51

00:01:58.860 Returning back to the story of Samantha, actually, the reason this is even in the news is because her story is part of New Yorker writer Andrew Morantz's new book titled Antisocial Online Extremists, Techno Utopians and the Hijacking of the American Conversation.

00:02:16.860 And in her interview, she simply Samantha talks about awakening to to to a white identity, questions about Jewish influence in the media and elsewhere, concerns about a global white genocide agenda.

00:02:34.460 Morantz is quoted as saying, Samantha was someone who wanted to tell me her story about how she had gotten in and more specifically how she had gotten out.

00:02:41.820 Samantha was one of the few people who was not in propaganda mode when she talked to me.

00:02:46.620 So I felt like rather than getting spin or what the movement wanted me to hear, I was just getting an actual human's story.

00:02:54.880 Morantz also said that these movements are mostly made up of men.

00:02:58.900 Most of the women that were there that were in there were tied to someone who was already there. 1.00

00:03:04.760 Morantz goes on to say they went to great lengths to make her feel important, that she was important because they needed someone to be the female.

00:03:11.820 The face of their movement.

00:03:13.840 Samantha said she became very active in online chat rooms under a pseudonym, although she didn't specifically recall posting hateful messages.

00:03:21.480 She's quoted as saying, I probably did.

00:03:24.420 And I knew it was wrong.

00:03:25.560 I remember being really apprehensive, but I did it.

00:03:27.920 Everyone else was doing it.

00:03:29.380 So I think there's a lot there to chew on.

00:03:31.580 Richard will give you the first swing at this.

00:03:33.540 What interests me, and maybe this is where you can lead off, is the kind of notion that these are male-dominated spaces, that there's a particular treatment of women in the movement.

00:03:46.720 I don't know if there's something there that you want to tackle before we...

00:03:50.060 Well, I think there's a lot here, actually, and that's why we're talking about it.

00:03:54.520 I agree that this is a tempest in a teapot, and no one's going to be talking about this, maybe even in 48 hours.

00:04:04.720 But it is interesting.

00:04:06.660 I remember in 2017 and 2018 saying this very often that basically you could call it radicalization, but in a good way, is a one-way street.

00:04:18.920 And there is the instacion alt-right, basically, that I've met many former libertarians who are alt-right.

00:04:26.260 I've met many former conservatives.

00:04:27.380 I've even met former Marxists and environmental activists who are alt-right.

00:04:31.380 But I've never met a former alt-right libertarian, in the sense that you just kind of can't go back once you take that red pill.

00:04:40.100 And I do think that that is true to a very large extent.

00:04:43.300 And I actually don't think Samantha has changed my mind about that.

00:04:48.460 Indeed, I don't even quite know how genuine she's being in these interviews.

00:04:54.380 I definitely did know her, and she was a very ambitious girl, and I think she's been blackpilled like 99% of the movement, and she now doesn't want to be associated with the stuff.

00:05:09.900 She's probably afraid of being doxxed and yet another server drop on Identity Europa or the American identity movement.

00:05:17.700 And so she wants to kind of preemptively quit before she's fired, so to speak. 0.99

00:05:22.560 But yeah, what we've seen over the past six to nine months is this new trend of de-radicalization.

00:05:29.920 And someone like Christian Picciolini has made a life out of this and a career where he's a former skinhead record producer.

00:05:40.540 I had never heard of this guy.

00:05:42.920 I mean, granted, we're different ages, and I have a cursory knowledge of skinhead history and literature and culture, but I don't even know if his story is true, to be honest.

00:05:59.080 It might very well be, but it might also not be.

00:06:02.500 Or I wouldn't be surprised if he got involved in some organization in some fashion and then just kind of pulled out much like Samantha did because he wanted a different career and life, although he has more of a story to tell.

00:06:17.180 I actually listened to Christian Picciolini speak live one time.

00:06:21.180 He was in Whitefish while I was in Whitefish in 2017.

00:06:26.180 I think it was early 2017.

00:06:28.160 And he was giving this lecture.

00:06:30.400 He had actually been brought to Whitefish by our local rabbis.

00:06:36.020 And literally, I'm not engaging in anti-Semitic hyperbole.

00:06:41.700 And he had been brought here, and he gave this kind of set speech about de-radicalization and talked about all this kind of stuff.

00:06:48.900 And, but yeah, it is an industry.

00:06:53.040 Picciolini is currently being sued by his former colleagues.

00:06:57.680 I, again, I won't pass judgment on a lawsuit.

00:07:01.980 I can imagine there's a lot of drama there, probably a lot of sinning on all sides.

00:07:07.460 And, but yeah, there is an industry to do this that is symbiotic with the alt-right, where as the alt-right rises, you have this new industry of, you know,

00:07:17.060 big, burly, tattooed, former skinheads who give bear hugs, and so on.

00:07:22.020 And there's certainly more and more people treading into Christian Picciolini's territory.

00:07:27.660 And I think, generally speaking, post-Charlottesville, we're going to see a lot more of this.

00:07:33.940 And I don't think this is the last one, and I don't think this is probably the most dramatic one either.

00:07:40.460 Charlottesville was a major turning point.

00:07:43.540 I didn't think it would be right at the beginning.

00:07:45.980 I was kind of ready for Charlottesville to be done with while we were leading up to it, because there was so much difficulty involved.

00:07:54.340 There were, there were so many attacks.

00:07:56.500 Obviously, the Charlottesville, the moment itself was quite traumatic, basically feeling oppressed by the police and the state.

00:08:04.720 And just wanting to, I just wanted it to be over, but it kind of would never end.

00:08:10.460 And the movement was absolutely demoralized.

00:08:13.280 We, the day before Charlottesville, we felt that we were winning and that we were, we were pushing ideas forward.

00:08:21.160 We kind of were on the Trump bandwagon, or he was silently supporting us and, and so on.

00:08:26.040 Post-Charlottesville, it was, it got real quick.

00:08:28.740 The doxing, the lawsuits, the arrest of people who were quite obviously gauged in, in self-defense.

00:08:37.480 The, the James Fields incident, which, you know, was ambiguous, but unambiguously awful and, and, and, you know, and, and preventable.

00:08:48.860 Um, and the alt-right became, it wasn't this fun movement.

00:08:54.400 It was being associated with, oh, they're terrorists and they're killing people in the streets and so on. 0.94

00:08:59.220 And it was a massive black pill.

00:09:01.080 And the movement certainly has not been the same.

00:09:03.480 And I don't think it will be the same.

00:09:04.640 And I don't think that it will ever go back.

00:09:08.000 Um, and so there is this, it's not like people are, to, to go back to the metaphor that I used before about people, you know, you, you get more radical as you start thinking through these things.

00:09:18.800 And you might start out as an edgy Republican and then you're a libertarian and then you're alt-right.

00:09:23.460 Uh, I don't think that dynamic has really shifted, but there is going to be a growing industry of people so-called de-radicalizing and basically telling their story.

00:09:34.800 Katie McHugh was, uh, the most famous of this.

00:09:38.260 I mean, Samantha is a kind of, I don't know, like B-side Katie McHugh, basically.

00:09:44.120 Uh, it, it, it's, it's a lot less interesting.

00:09:46.200 Uh, but there are some people, like Katie McHugh was an absolute bandwagon jumper. 1.00

00:09:50.940 And much like, uh, Samantha, she was very ambitious when she got in the movement and wanted to meet people and date them and, and so on.

00:09:59.660 Um, and, uh, then the movement doesn't become fun anymore and they get really depressed and angry and frustrated and they feel betrayed and they want to lash out and demoralize the movement even, even further.

00:10:13.440 And I don't think this is the end of it.

00:10:15.760 Uh, so while this, this incident in itself isn't particularly interesting or significant, um, I do think it's a trend.

00:10:23.340 Uh, and, uh, we just simply have to deal with that fact.

00:10:27.580 Well, a question for Mark, uh, and, uh, a little bit of pretext first there, as you point out, Richard, there isn't kind of an industry for de-radicalization, but it seems to be a meme that is being pushed, uh, in the media and the establishment to give the impression that there is a true diminishing of kind of illiberal thought or white consciousness, um, rather than the opposite.

00:10:48.320 Eric Stryker on his website, national justice, I think published an article not too long ago saying the, actually the opposite is true that occidental dissent and some of these other websites are seeing their traffic explode.

00:10:59.680 Um, so, so the idea of a de-radicalization meme is something that is artificially being put forward, um, to, as Richard is saying, demoralize, uh, the community to, to give people second thoughts about this kind of thing.

00:11:13.700 One more time to hit Stryker, he published an article about, uh, Picciolini as well, who's involved in a lawsuit, uh, life after hate, uh, is suing him for basically appropriating funds for himself.

00:11:27.400 So, Mark, I'm curious to know, what do you think about this de-radicalization meme as kind of a psychological operation?

00:11:35.820 Yeah, no, I think it's definitely the case.

00:11:37.560 I mean, I, I think that, uh, polarization is going to continue apace.

00:11:41.440 I mean, I think that we're, there's one direction to this train and I don't see it actually slowing down.

00:11:47.340 Um, I do see, uh, you know, the, the, the state to a certain extent, but certainly corporations we've seen, uh, in terms of censorship, I see, um, these, I, I see basically the forces arrayed against us becoming more oppressive effectively as the only kind of method of, of dealing with this.

00:12:05.940 But I do, I think that these people that are, um, that are trying to backpedal out of the alt-right, um, to sort of save themselves as it were.

00:12:16.340 Um, I don't think that anything psychologically has changed though, in terms of the people, the people that are aware of these ideas are still very much in the alt-right.

00:12:24.440 Now, this girl may be a person who's trying to kind of save her own skin as it were, uh, and she is a woman, right?

00:12:31.640 So there is a kind of different psychology involved there.

00:12:34.760 And that's, you know, I mean, that's not to criticize women in general, but they're not, you know, they are, uh, they're, they're kind of, uh, constituted in a different way. 0.85

00:12:43.540 So, uh, and they are more apt to kind of just, you know, uh, going along with the flow as it were, that's kind of an evolutionary trait of women. 1.00

00:12:52.900 Um, so she can't even really be sort of blamed for her relative cowardice in this incident, uh, in this instance.

00:13:00.280 Um, but, uh, yeah, I, so I, I don't, I think that the train is going to go forward.

00:13:04.900 And I mean, I, I think, uh, and actually a good example of what I'm talking about right now.

00:13:08.520 It's going to be silent for a long time.

00:13:10.620 I think the train, the train was going full bore for a while and people were, you know, overtly jumping on, uh, people willing to go to Charlottesville and stand up and risk doxing.

00:13:25.620 I don't think people quite expected what would happen eventually, but they certainly knew that risk were involved in the sense of being doxed and they were willing to do it because it was so exciting.

00:13:36.780 You felt like you're part of this big thing.

00:13:38.360 I don't think the alt-right is going to be in that mode anytime soon.

00:13:43.360 Um, and, uh, but yeah, there's no question that for everyone, Samantha, there's like, you know, a hundred or a thousand other people learning about, you know, dissident ideas, good and bad ones, to be honest.

00:13:59.120 Uh, but dissident ideas, uh, on the internet.

00:14:04.080 Well, on a question then for Tyler, just to kind of move from the, the whammon question, um, Hunter Wallace wrote about this for the Occidental dissent or dissident.

00:14:14.060 I forget the name of his website.

00:14:15.120 Uh, and the thing that was interesting to me, uh, straw man, a cod who is kind of an audience member of a lot of these shows, um, left several comments in, in the, in the, the bottom of the article talking about how, um, one of the reasons he left the alt-right or the white nationalist movement was that there, there was just a preoccupation with degeneracy.

00:14:40.120 Degeneracy on the part of men who would then turn around and try to have sex with his wife, have sex with the wives of other people involved.

00:14:49.120 And so there's this preoccupation with degeneracy at the same time, uh, a willful engagement in that degeneracy.

00:14:55.500 Uh, it seems like you read that article as well.

00:14:57.660 What are your thoughts on that, Tyler?

00:14:59.360 Yeah, I did read that article.

00:15:01.240 I found his comments pretty revealing and also honestly, uh, pretty relatable to what, what I saw back in 2016 and 2017 and up to 18, right?

00:15:09.620 Like, it reminded me a lot of us, I guess, some of the weak foundations from a lot of people that came into this at the time.

00:15:15.620 So when I noticed, cause he basically said, you know, you know, he said a lot of these men were kind of behaving like typical degenerates, you know, they're, they were losers or lashing out, they're full of resentment.

00:15:25.940 But at the same time in hitting on this guy's girlfriend, they were making essentially a checklist of all the things she should be trad about.

00:15:33.560 Right. 0.94

00:15:34.760 So it's like they, they, what it indicated to me anyways, is that this was basically the behavior of people who are, or, you know, they're basically losers.

00:15:44.880 Um, and you know, to some extent they're feel justified, right?

00:15:47.560 They should feel justified in that, but they, they weren't taking, you know, they weren't taking the effort to construct something new or something, you know, out of this.

00:15:56.700 They were people that felt resentment and then the Trump campaign comes along and this was their very first experience with, you know, what we would call dissonant politics, but I don't think they thought of it as dissonant back then.

00:16:07.700 You know, this is why they got very surprised all of a sudden, you know, post Charlottesville is because they realized that, Hey, we're actually dissidents, right?

00:16:15.300 The state doesn't like us.

00:16:16.680 You know, they learned that for the very first time.

00:16:19.880 And so you're, and so I remember back at these local kind of groups here, I saw this all the time, you know, women would come around and then all the men, whether it'd be like one or two women and these men would get very infatuated with her and they'd be like, Oh yeah, she's so trad and right wing.

00:16:33.880 She's saying all the right things.

00:16:35.520 And the whole time I found it very pathetic, but like it spoke to like this need that this was all coming from a place of, you know, you know, justifiably, you know, 0.80

00:16:46.680 of course that you're, you're, you're becoming, uh, you're losing your place in society, losing your role. 0.81

00:16:52.560 You don't have any power.

00:16:53.860 You have no future, but instead of working to build something new and understanding that this kind of work requires risk and sacrifice.

00:17:00.340 And there's a lot of uncertainty involved in this.

00:17:03.040 It was okay.

00:17:04.140 Well, Trump took us to victory.

00:17:06.740 Now we're all the way down here.

00:17:08.540 And so what are we seeing from this?

00:17:09.980 We're seeing two things, uh, just, uh, and this is what interested me about what Richard mentioned earlier about, um, uh,

00:17:16.680 you know, the Samantha story was Patrick Casey's response to this.

00:17:20.080 He basically said, I agree.

00:17:22.380 And then goes on to list all these groups that were not the one she was in, which was his own.

00:17:27.840 So, and then, and then they went, okay, well, okay, well, we need to focus on, you know, optics, whatever, basically reviving that optics argument.

00:17:36.040 And then what you get on the other side, where you get these people that think, okay, well, there's something called movementarianism.

00:17:40.900 And it's all hopeless and it's going to collapse. 0.70

00:17:42.860 So you just run to the tree, run, run to the rural areas, make like a cell of like three or four people and just like wait for the system collapse, which is, you know, completely ridiculous. 0.81

00:17:52.300 Right.

00:17:52.780 Like even, even if that scenario was possible, regardless, you'd still have to actually engage in the world.

00:17:59.420 Those institutions change over time and create these conditions in the first place.

00:18:02.620 You simply can't pose this dialectically, though, this dichotomy between good optics and engaging in, you know, your GOP and, you know, putting up this idea that if you just behave like friendly white people, then everyone will all of a sudden be, okay, these guys aren't so bad.

00:18:17.440 Let's give them their own space or the other option, which is become the worst possible thing you could think of.

00:18:26.600 Yeah, I agree with a lot of what you said.

00:18:29.420 I'll disagree here slightly, but yeah, I think all of these reactions to Charlottesville are kind of all the flip side, the same side, the second, the other side of the same coin, so to speak.

00:18:43.540 Although this is a coin with many sides.

00:18:46.680 There's the, oh, we can just be Republicans and Trump is so base that he's going to like create a, you know, fascist revolution or whatever.

00:18:54.920 Or we need to read siege and go kill people and blow up our local, you know, electrical outlet or whatever, you know, and then also, oh, I'm going to go and live in the country and everything will collapse and then I'll win by doing nothing.

00:19:09.840 Or, you know, oh, we actually need to like trick people by waving flags and then they're going to allow us into the GOP.

00:19:18.260 All of these things are kind of wrong and they're all kind of weirdly similar.

00:19:22.340 They're all about avoiding responsibility and basically they're all about avoiding becoming a real independent movement, which the alt-right, despite its myriad of faults, was kind of sort of fledgingly becoming in 2017.

00:19:42.760 And it failed, but it was kind of sort of doing that.

00:19:48.860 And every reaction to it and every criticism is given in bad faith in the sense that it's given by people who just don't want to take responsibility.

00:19:57.820 And so they get into these arguments that are ultimately meaningless.

00:20:01.500 What is the point of the optics debate?

00:20:03.700 Like if you Google the American identity movement or Identity Europa and you look at the newsfeed, I actually did this a few days ago, and you look at just Google newsfeed, literally every headline will include neo-Nazi, white supremacist, white nationalist, fascist, maybe alt-right here and there, although that's becoming less common.

00:20:24.920 So you can't like, what is the optics debate about if no one's listening?

00:20:29.400 All you're doing is getting in these vicious internecine feuds between a bunch of people who don't want to take ultimate responsibility for things.

00:20:40.540 And I just, again, it's like, I'm willing to say this, I'm willing to admit it.

00:20:45.340 But yeah, I mean, Casey, it's like, you know, the guy is endlessly in the friend zone with Samantha.

00:20:51.760 He's been in the friend zone for three years and he's still there.

00:20:55.100 And he even says it himself, like, she's my friend.

00:20:58.320 And then he goes on, like, I saw this, I'm blocked by Patrick Casey, by the way, but someone sent me a screenshot of the thing.

00:21:07.680 And you basically see this kind of thing.

00:21:10.080 It's like, but I agree, like all of these other, all of these other groups that she did not join really are terrible.

00:21:17.700 It's like, dude, at some level, you got to take responsibility for this stuff.

00:21:23.300 And, you know, the other one that I found amusing from him was he was like, you low IQ wignats or whatever. 0.59

00:21:31.780 And he was like, you're blaming me for being on Discord, but we're not on Discord. 0.99

00:21:37.960 Like, so screw you. 0.89

00:21:39.280 And it's like, dude, you have Antifa as dues paying members who are leaking your chats. 0.99

00:21:45.480 Like, that's the problem.

00:21:46.980 The whole Discord critique was kind of secondary, you know.

00:21:50.720 But anyway, yeah, it's just a complete joke.

00:21:55.700 And it's, again, all of these guys are just a bunch of ways of saying we shouldn't actually be an independent movement that is dissident, that is going to get lashed out at, that is going to be suppressed by the state to a degree, that is going to rub a lot of people the wrong way.

00:22:13.320 Because we are in a similar position to dissident movements in the past.

00:22:19.900 And we can ultimately accept that and own it and move forward.

00:22:23.700 Or we can play these endless, meaningless games that people outside of the movement don't pay attention to.

00:22:30.640 So, but I would say this, though, as just a marginal rejoinder to Thamster on the whole kind of degeneracy question and whatever.

00:22:45.780 Let's also just be real about human nature.

00:22:48.780 Now, are there a bunch of incels in the alt-right?

00:22:54.500 No question.

00:22:55.900 Is that a problem?

00:22:57.420 Absolutely.

00:22:58.020 Is there just a lot of resentment and a kind of false puritanism in the sense that, you know, you can't really criticize something you can't possess?

00:23:06.880 You know, like, if you can't get laid, then you can't be lecturing anyone on, like, the virtues of abstinence.

00:23:14.800 You know, you have to actually abstain and not, you know, be such a loser that you can't get any.

00:23:21.680 Like, let's just be, you know, these are real chat hours here.

00:23:24.820 I'm just telling you the truth, guys.

00:23:26.060 But that being said, look.

00:23:29.960 If you don't have a mouth, you can't criticize people who drink too much, right?

00:23:34.080 Yeah, exactly.

00:23:35.760 Exactly.

00:23:36.160 And, yeah, and if you can't appreciate, like, having a beer with the guys once in a while or, you know, enjoying a cocktail with, you know, with your girlfriend or something, if you can't actually experience that, then don't start lecturing everyone about alcoholism or whatever, which is another thing that I hear.

00:23:57.920 But, yeah, but what I was saying is that, look, there was a lot of energy in that movement.

00:24:05.000 And, you know, yeah, young people get together and guys get jealous and they're all hitting on girls and people sleep with each other.

00:24:13.300 And so I don't want to kind of Puritan post here in the sense of, like, there's going to be a movement that is the only way we're successful is if we're either like this Christian moral movement. 0.88

00:24:29.360 Like, let's just be real.

00:24:30.740 There are a lot of moral, there are a lot of highly successful movements out there where, you know, people get laid.

00:24:39.940 And it's just kind of human nature.

00:24:42.400 There's a lot of energy.

00:24:43.680 And so I don't know.

00:24:44.620 I found Hunter's article just a little bit kind of tedious on that regard.

00:24:51.000 But, you know, again, emotions were going high.

00:24:56.700 It is what it is.

00:24:58.100 The fact that, you know, a young man thinks, a young man who has good instincts and isn't resentful and thinks, oh, I could actually join something and maybe meet a girl.

00:25:09.340 I mean, is that really a bad thing?

00:25:11.380 I actually would warn people from dating like that one weird trad girl who enters your organization. 1.00

00:25:21.140 She's probably kind of screwed up in the head. 0.94

00:25:23.540 But nevertheless, is it really a bad thing for erotic desires to, you know, be at play at these kinds of things? 0.98

00:25:32.460 I don't I'm not sure it is.

00:25:34.060 And I think it's just kind of natural.

00:25:36.600 You know, I think that's the least of the problems of this whole situation.

00:25:39.860 Two thoughts and we'll turn it over to Tyler because I know Tyler has something he wants to say.

00:25:44.420 I don't know about you guys, but I really didn't like the cringy Reagan Christian morality that seeped its way through the 80s into the 90s.

00:25:53.300 It was really stifling.

00:25:55.500 It was not pleasurable.

00:25:56.900 And I know, at least for my generation, it's why a lot of us became progressives, leftists, kind of Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez styled socialists, because we were tired of this grandma, old grandma hectoring about stuff that was essentially harmless.

00:26:13.160 But you missed the point, Josh, because it was all utter hypocrisy.

00:26:16.360 The ultimate way to get laid is to go to CPAC and, you know, wear a flag like that. 0.95

00:26:23.260 That's the ultimate joke is that it's, you know, Reaganites in the streets and, you know, orgies in the sheets or whatever.

00:26:35.500 Yeah.

00:26:36.220 And again, and I'm not saying that it's all some big, you know, satanic catastrophe.

00:26:41.240 But yeah, I mean, look, that's a movement that obviously sucks and we hate and has been totally destructive, but they feel like they're going somewhere. 0.89

00:26:52.440 They feel like tomorrow is going to be brighter than yesterday. 0.99

00:26:56.460 And yeah, they want to have sex because they're 20 years old, you know. 0.63

00:27:01.520 The other thing, just a slight disagreement, I've been guilty of this too.

00:27:06.900 And when people are quick to say that the alt-right failed, I don't think that the history book has been closed.

00:27:13.360 That chapter is closed on what the alt-right was or still is.

00:27:16.940 And I do think very much it still is a process of becoming.

00:27:20.960 And all of these, taking Augustus into consideration, the grifter question from last week,

00:27:27.060 the topics we've discussed tonight, these are all part of the evolution of what the alt-right can still become.

00:27:36.340 So I just.

00:27:37.900 But that chapter stretching from summer of 2015 to summer of 2017 is closed.

00:27:43.900 Like that is a chapter.

00:27:45.200 And it has a narrative and an arc to it.

00:27:47.660 Absolutely.

00:27:48.560 Yeah.

00:27:48.900 But yeah, no, I obviously agree or otherwise I wouldn't be talking to you guys.

00:27:54.220 Right.

00:27:54.800 Tyler.

00:27:55.040 That kind of sounded insulting.

00:27:56.400 I didn't mean it that way.

00:27:58.620 Wasn't, wasn't taken that way.

00:28:00.360 Tyler.

00:28:00.820 Yeah.

00:28:01.060 I just wanted to say what might sound like, I guess a bit of like an obvious point at first,

00:28:05.180 but does play into this is one of the things which might be a slight retort to what I said earlier.

00:28:09.580 But I see this a lot, like when it comes to the whole like group dynamics and political movements,

00:28:14.600 like the whole sleeping around thing, a bunch of drama going around.

00:28:17.740 And on one hand, I explain it as like a, you know, part of this resentment.

00:28:21.980 But on the other hand, and this is something people understand, like me, I used to be a lot in the music scene and everything was when you're an adult and you're in any scene, whether it be a music scene or some kind of hobby, all of these kind of sexual group dynamics.

00:28:36.620 And this drama dynamics happens in every single group.

00:28:39.920 And so when often these kinds of complaints come up, like, oh, this movement's full of drama and this, any group, because think about it.

00:28:47.620 Most of the time when you're older, your friend group thins.

00:28:50.420 You go to work.

00:28:51.260 That's the kind of people you talk to.

00:28:52.780 You don't have much of a social circle.

00:28:54.520 All these groups dynamics, they take place in any hobby or anything that you're going to get involved in.

00:28:59.340 So they're always going to be there.

00:29:00.640 So the one thing I guess I agree with Hunter's take on, which might not be the Lutheranism angle specifically, but was the idea that if you're trying to form a new movement that isn't purely resentment, but actually offers a positive vision, then at least within the groups that you're in, you should at least be able to live up to a certain code that kind of projects what kind of society you want to have in the future.

00:29:23.180 So that would be the takeaway message I agree with.

00:29:26.620 But on the other hand, I would like to say those group dynamics are present in all these things.

00:29:31.020 So you have to be eternally vigorous with this.

00:29:33.440 You have to monitor how exactly these dynamics play out.

00:29:37.120 You might have to follow a code.

00:29:38.580 If you're serious about building something new, that has to be in every area that you're in, not just the theoretical realm, but when you're engaging with others in that group, you should be a part of building that.

00:29:48.820 It should be in everything you do.

00:29:50.660 And I have noticed this as well.

00:29:52.200 I mean, I have not really been to a movement group in over a year now.

00:29:58.920 But I would say this, and one of the last things that I went to was this basically private meeting in Indianapolis, and it led to friendships ending.

00:30:13.380 It led to – sometimes when you've got a lot of young people and you're just giving them beer, basically not much good can happen.

00:30:26.200 And, yeah, that was certainly an example of it.

00:30:31.700 And I hear stories all the time.

00:30:33.740 Whenever there's any movement gathering and it gets into a drinking fest, it just – it's not going to end well.

00:30:41.680 And I also think this is a problem, even though it kind of is – let's also be honest here – a problem in every movement or every scene and kind of derives from youth and human nature itself.

00:30:58.060 Yeah, trying to pin this as a unique feature of the alt-right or conservatism or whatever I think is a little bit misguided.

00:31:10.460 But before we are accused of defending degeneracy, I think maybe we can close out this program by agreeing the news of the day is absolutely mortifying.

00:31:21.500 And the story – this is from the New York Post.

00:31:23.860 The Texas jury rules against divorced dad trying to stop seven-year-old son's gender transition.

00:31:31.220 The Dallas panel denied Jeffrey Younger's petition for sole custody of sons Jude and James, which came as the boy's mom is pushing for James to begin hormone replacement therapy.

00:31:42.960 The mom, pediatrician Ann Georgioulis – we lost you?

00:31:47.700 No, I think – no, I'm just – every time I hear this story, I just want to puke, basically.

00:31:55.240 Yeah.

00:31:56.320 Well, let's – I'll put a close to –

00:31:58.080 Not even that.

00:31:58.760 I just want to cry.

00:31:59.580 It's just so saddening and just – yeah.

00:32:05.040 Awful.

00:32:05.920 Keep going.

00:32:06.760 Yeah.

00:32:07.300 Yeah.

00:32:07.500 Well, Ann Georgioulis, the pediatrician, contends that James is transgender, likes wearing dresses, and prefers to be identified as Luna.

00:32:15.980 Maybe this is relevant.

00:32:17.120 Maybe this isn't relevant.

00:32:18.080 Ann Georgioulis also performs a lot of circumcisions.

00:32:21.980 I don't know if this – if she just has a thing for emasculating men, young boys. 0.99

00:32:27.080 I don't know.

00:32:27.920 But at stake potentially is not just James' identity in the here and now, but his health down the line.

00:32:32.800 I think we're all kind of cognizant of the consequences of giving prepubescent boys hormone blockers, putting them through hormone replacement therapy.

00:32:42.520 Richard, this is a real kind of a – puts a tear in the eye of any sober person.

00:32:50.640 What are your thoughts?

00:32:52.080 Well, yeah.

00:32:52.680 You know, we – before we went on air, we were thinking of not even talking about this because, you know, this isn't just low-hanging fruit.

00:33:00.180 This is fruit that's just lying on the ground asking to be picked up.

00:33:03.680 And, you know, just simply expressing outrage is kind of easy because any normal person looks at this, and not to mention anyone vaguely on the right looks at this and is just absolutely disgusted. 0.89

00:33:18.660 Although maybe that's changing with post-2016 and MAGA and all this, you know, weird pro-gay tranny stuff coming into the conservative movement. 0.96

00:33:28.820 But, yeah, I mean, it's just beyond insane.

00:33:34.800 You know, young people are kind of inherently confused.

00:33:39.480 They're going through puberty.

00:33:40.900 They don't know who they are by the just very nature of maturation.

00:33:45.700 The ability of young people to be manipulated and told that, oh, no, actually, these completely natural questions that you're engaging in express some secret identity that you've always had.

00:34:02.020 And then to engage through modern medicine in castration, mutilation, and desecration of the human body.

00:34:11.720 It's just beyond anything that I could ever imagine.

00:34:15.700 You know, I have to say, I thought that we reached a kind of end of the gay culture wars in 2013. 1.00

00:34:28.040 By that point, the president of the United States had, even though he didn't when he ran, he came out in favor of gay marriage.

00:34:35.340 Tim Cook, the CEO of Apple, you know, one of the most beloved, also kind of one of the most hated, but one of the most beloved companies and a kind of, you know, cool capitalism company, came out as gay. 1.00

00:34:47.620 I actually did kind of think, all right, we've kind of tabled these questions. 0.71

00:34:52.080 Being gay is now boring. 1.00

00:34:53.920 You know, that means that you're a CEO of a company or, you know, whatever. 0.99

00:34:59.180 Let's just move on and start talking about real issues.

00:35:02.760 And I thought that it was kind of over.

00:35:05.740 And needless to say, I was wrong.

00:35:07.720 Within six to nine months, we were already talking about, you know, Caitlyn slash Bruce Jenner, which could be seen as a bizarre anecdote.

00:35:19.160 But then, by 2015 to 2016, we were going into transitioning children.

00:35:26.340 And so, I don't know.

00:35:29.380 There really was a real culture war.

00:35:34.060 And we like to, you know, kind of poo-poo the paleos and point out their limitations and so on.

00:35:42.300 But when Pat Buchanan used that term, culture war, it actually meant something.

00:35:47.800 And far worse than anything he ever imagined when he gave that speech in 1992 at the Republican National Convention, it has now been normalized in a way where some, you know, beady-eyed librarian running for president can talk to a nine-year-old transgendered person and be like, oh, that's great.

00:36:08.680 That's great.

00:36:10.380 We have just, yeah, we live in this society.

00:36:14.560 We can't run away from it, and our society is profoundly sick.

00:36:20.020 I think even talking about degeneracy is, I don't know.

00:36:24.100 I think a lot of people haven't, you know, when they use that word, they're almost referring to, like, I don't know, getting drunk or, you know, screwing around with some chick or whatever.

00:36:34.460 And I don't know.

00:36:35.380 I think we almost need to reformulate that.

00:36:40.120 That kind of stuff is all too human and maybe forgivable at some level.

00:36:45.620 What we're seeing now is weirdly not that type of behavior.

00:36:49.700 It's a bizarre, sick, and kind of weirdly puritanical type of motive on the part of these people.

00:37:03.380 And I cannot put into words the level of hatred I have, not towards the young people who are clearly victims, but towards the adults that includes physicians, people I would usually defend.

00:37:21.280 My father's a physician, but certainly includes these activists.

00:37:24.740 It is just beyond sick, and it's not just about free love and sex. 0.94

00:37:32.740 It is about the radical transformation of human nature, and that is just profoundly disgusting. 0.97

00:37:43.080 I agree.

00:37:46.140 My thought, and maybe we can get Tyler's impressions on this as well.

00:37:52.220 It speaks to, I think, the deep ideological possession that the average American man and woman is under, that they look at their child and they think, oh, little Johnny must be little Janie.

00:38:04.880 That's what I'm looking at.

00:38:05.680 But it also is kind of like this boomer.

00:38:09.080 I don't want to bring an ageist aspect to it, but it's almost like this boomer aspect of like, well, gee.

00:38:14.340 Plenty of boomers even for this. 0.92

00:38:17.400 Slightly unfair, I guess.

00:38:20.820 Well, let's remove age from it, but like the mentality that, well, as long as this person is happy, if this will make them happy, if this will bring them fulfillment.

00:38:29.300 It's almost in a certain sense like people recognize the world is kind of hopelessly perverted and evil and going in the wrong direction, and people want to steal joy wherever they can find it.

00:38:43.360 And so, Tyler, I'm going to get your thoughts on this.

00:38:45.900 Taking the age out of it, I apologize.

00:38:47.580 We love our boomers, but the kind of like a very American, almost like 60s, new age humanist psychiatrist movement of like happiness, happiness, happiness, fulfillment, that seems to me to be at the core of this as well.

00:39:03.940 Tyler, what do you think?

00:39:05.620 Yeah, I think degeneracy isn't a strong enough word for this.

00:39:10.260 And I think when you connect boomers and then this kind of new age hippie mentality and then this, you know, this activist mentality, I think there is, you know, a family lineage here with this line of thought in the sense that liberalism in its inception has always been essentially the liberation of human nature from biology with the power of technology.

00:39:33.180 It's liberating us from our biological pretense into this kind of realm of human freedom in which the individual becomes realized, right?

00:39:41.920 And what ends up happening with this is this kind of defacement of human nature, which, you know, human nature itself, what makes someone what they are, is formed from this kind of bodily engagement with the world, through the environment, you know, through the mind of other people around you, your culture and yourself.

00:39:58.640 And this literally develops into who you are.

00:40:01.500 This is how, you know, this is how you become who you are.

00:40:03.960 This is how people become who you are.

00:40:05.960 And when you try to liberate us from those kind of roots, you essentially create the situation in which this kind of horizon of meaning is stripped away.

00:40:14.020 And all you have is this kind of individual projection in which you're looking for meaning, but you're not going to find it.

00:40:19.400 And so you get caught up in your own anxieties and your desires and there's nowhere to situate it.

00:40:24.680 There's yourself towards something higher.

00:40:54.680 You know, mental disfigurement that you can't situate anywhere in some kind of meaningful way.

00:41:01.060 So what happens with this, this is where you get this shared lineage between Americanism and this kind of liberal idea of freedom that was there in the very beginning of America's founding.

00:41:14.180 And that's where it led us to where we are today.

00:41:16.200 Let me follow up question, because some members of the audience have challenged this idea that, you know, wow, we're anti-liberal, we're anti-freedom, we're anti-liberty.

00:41:28.960 What do you think with regards to the idea that the kind of American or enlightenment conception of freedom was a high freedom?

00:41:37.160 And it was something that that when we say freedom, it wasn't this base freedom from responsibility or freedom from biological condition, but freedom from the freedom to to do in a willful way, but also like in an intentional kind of deeply meaningful way to exercise freedom.

00:41:56.260 The freedom that we are all talking about today in this broadcast is probably not the same kind of freedom that was meant 200 years ago, 300 years ago.

00:42:05.840 Do you see a distinction there at all, Tyler?

00:42:08.020 Well, you know, I mean, certainly when you read the Enlightenment philosophers, we're not all thinking of the situations that we have now, right?

00:42:15.880 Like, that's for sure.

00:42:16.740 I mean, like you can even read someone as lame as Locke, and then you get it.

00:42:20.180 But he still had this notion of natural law, and he's still connected to the divine and God.

00:42:25.400 But, you know, there's a certain sense in which ideas on their own, and when you take away power and how that they're actually put out into the world by a community of minds,

00:42:34.500 it helps build up and constitute them over time, in the sense that everything you do and you think and how you live in the world comes out of these kinds of conceptions that are, you know, before you and they're after you,

00:42:45.140 and they, you know, in a certain way kind of designate where you're going to go in thought and where you're going to go as a people.

00:42:51.320 That you can't necessarily, you can't constrain these things just by saying, okay, well, our notion of freedom was not this kind of degenerative freedom that they have now in the West.

00:43:00.240 Well, you know, sure. But in a sense, when you're trying to essentially create a project in which the universe and the human is all quantitative, you know,

00:43:09.300 and it's all the matter of the technology liberating us from our human nature that we inherit from the world and from our biology and from people, others around us.

00:43:19.360 Well, you're going to end up with the same kind of problem. There's no way around it.

00:43:22.760 And it's the same reason that Marxism was not a good answer either, because in the same sense,

00:43:26.860 it kind of created this scientific materialist understanding of which the end of history would be realized in the matter that there'd be this absolute freedom that we would progress that way from some kind of perfect understanding of how,

00:43:40.060 you know, the economic realm played out, how these, you know, this means of production, this class warfare would lead us to this ideal state.

00:43:47.520 It's the same. It comes out of the same ideology that you could somehow reconfigure human nature and you could ignore these very primordial elements of what makes us who we are.

00:43:56.420 And you're going to end up at the same point. And I think any kind of genuine philosophy for the future,

00:44:01.520 something that we would need to take up would require understanding at least a kind of sense of who we are as a people.

00:44:07.300 And that would be the only real challenge. And I don't mean just us as white people, but, you know, humanity in general,

00:44:13.520 what exactly that means to be human. And that in itself would be a bulwark against the idea that the liberation of humanity from human,

00:44:22.820 from our kind of inherited nature through technology.

00:44:27.640 You know, that would be something good and inevitably good, and that would benefit everybody.

00:44:31.920 I don't think it would.

00:44:34.080 Yeah, real quick, I, we, no, unquestionably people in the 1950s, the 1850s, the 1750s did not think that what they were doing was leading up to Caitlyn Jenner and this very depressing case in Texas.

00:44:51.400 But you can understand their, the beginnings and origins of their ideas by ultimately viewing their outcome.

00:44:59.500 I mean, we do live in their wake and we can understand the foundations of America by looking at where it is now and not just merely being a reactionary and saying it was better 50 years ago.

00:45:11.100 Yeah, it was better 50 years ago. It was also kind of worse 50 years ago in, in, in many ways as well.

00:45:16.020 And that, that's just a very limp response to this problem as, as opposed to saying, no, actually America was wrong from the very beginning.

00:45:23.880 There is something profoundly wicked in its origins that led here.

00:45:30.480 And that doesn't mean that there isn't a lot of redeemable things about America's past, but to just try to wish it away and think that we can just turn back the clock, you know, a few decades or maybe a century or maybe a few centuries is, is again, it's, it's that kind of mirror reaction that we, we absolutely need to get away from.

00:45:51.540 It is also interesting in the future. I, I do think that we will simply need to assert things that, and, and assert them differently as opposed to asserting things like natural law or God-given rights or things like that.

00:46:08.800 Uh, I, I think we actually will have to, uh, uh, force people to be free in the sense that we will assert a certain, uh, certain aspects of human nature that won't be questioned and that these questions will have been answered and we will not discuss this anymore.

00:46:28.060 We are not going to have another debate about whether an eight-year-old is a transsexual, um, and we will assert that using the power of the state and the power of law.

00:46:37.760 And we will just simply have to do that. And, you know, you can say, oh gosh, how fascist and whatever. But again, that, that fascist term is just a way it's liberal blackmail. It's just a way for them to, uh, avoid actually answering these questions. Um, and, uh, there, yeah, there, there's no question that politics in the future, it's going to be a kind of culture war. It's going to be a philosophical war, uh, not in the way that that term is used by Charlie Kirk, but, um, we will,

00:47:07.720 absolutely have to answer certain questions about the nature of man for us to move forward.

00:47:15.660 Very well said. Since you mentioned Charlie Kirk, uh, I think this is probably a good opportunity to discuss a series of videos that have been floating around Twitter and elsewhere on the internet, which, um, I, I think before the call started, before the show started, uh, Richard, you referred to them as Chad Catholics or something like that.

00:47:33.740 I don't know who these young men are, but there's a group of these young guys and they are going to these culture war broadcasts or, or, um, um, college lectures, whatever they are.

00:47:44.140 And they're, and they're antagonizing with Charlie Kirk about the relationship that we have with Israel, paying them $3.8 billion a year, bringing up the USS Liberty.

00:47:53.240 Um, one video in one video, a guy pretty, pretty said something pretty hardcore.

00:47:58.880 It's like, we're giving them money to blow up children.

00:48:02.160 I don't think I'm taking, putting words in his mouth.

00:48:03.960 I mean, very, very, almost like Ed's Lord Twitter type of comments, but in this very open public forum.

00:48:09.860 And, uh, Charlie Kirk responded in the very predictable way.

00:48:13.980 Um, what was your impression of this, Richard?

00:48:16.240 Well, look, I, I think it's great.

00:48:18.220 I, I also think there's some limitations to that.

00:48:21.160 Uh, but first off, I'll talk about the great stuff.

00:48:23.860 I mean, Charlie, Charlie Kirk is kind of fascinating and just in the, the, the boy band quality of him.

00:48:31.580 Um, he, he came out of nowhere.

00:48:33.360 I don't know if anyone had heard of him before, say 2014.

00:48:36.540 And then he's sitting on this, you know, multimillion dollar 501 C3P, uh, 501 C3, which is, you know, the envy of all these other conservative organizations that have trying to be, gain traction.

00:48:47.960 For decades, he did it.

00:48:50.220 Um, he's a campus activist yet.

00:48:52.240 He has no degree.

00:48:53.180 I think he might've attended a semester of college or something, which I've always found rather funny, but kind of, I don't know, perfect in a way.

00:49:01.040 Uh, but he is a boy band.

00:49:02.680 And, and what I mean by that is that, um, you know, the normal stories of rock bands, you know, is that they, they get together, they're friends and they don't even know how to play instruments.

00:49:13.820 And they, you know, play pubs for four years and they put out their first album and then by album, like three or four, they're actually good.

00:49:20.880 Um, and with a boy band, it is basically producers, you know, they, they retro engineer a group.

00:49:28.620 And so they, they have an idea of what they want in the sense of this poppy, you know, bubble gum appeal to teenage girls type thing.

00:49:35.940 And then they go out and they find the talent and they just create this band, new kids on the block in sync, et cetera.

00:49:42.440 I'm sure there are many more that I don't know about, um, uh, the spice girls, uh, all that kind of stuff.

00:49:49.420 Uh, and, um, he kind of is this in the sense that he is perfectly retro engineered for this time.

00:49:57.000 He is evoking MAGA populism, uh, to some degree.

00:50:01.480 He is a fierce defender of the president.

00:50:03.300 I think he actually will probably defend him, Donald Trump to the end.

00:50:07.020 Uh, but then at the same time, he kind of takes, he, he knows where he has to be right now as a conservative.

00:50:14.120 And so he's doing this culture war college tour and, uh, he's going up there, um, you know, evoking Pat Buchanan, evoking Pat's most famous or notorious speech from 1992.

00:50:28.480 Um, and it, while Pat was talking about, you know, we shouldn't allow gays on TV and the police should justifiably crack down on the LA rioters. 0.97

00:50:40.800 That's what he was actually talking about in that speech. 0.78

00:50:43.120 Now it's, we need to confront, uh, Iran because they throw gays off buildings and don't allow transsexuals. 1.00

00:50:51.840 So that, that's literally where we've come.

00:50:54.540 It's a culture, the culture war almost means the exact opposite of what it used to mean.

00:50:59.720 And, uh, that is remarkable.

00:51:01.160 So he's, he's an interesting figure.

00:51:04.040 He, he is perfectly chosen for this time.

00:51:06.600 Uh, the fact that he's answering these questions, uh, so emphatically and he, he has a set answer for them means that he's prepared.

00:51:14.380 He knows about this stuff.

00:51:16.000 He's ready to denounce it.

00:51:17.620 Uh, I would say this when I was 20 years old in college in, you know, 1999 or, or whatever, uh, I did not know what the USS Liberty was.

00:51:29.000 Um, and I, I certainly was reading, you know, radical philosophy or something, but I did not have edgy opinions because the, the web was just in a infant state at that point.

00:51:40.900 Uh, now these 20 year old kids know about this stuff.

00:51:44.920 They have facts.

00:51:46.200 They're, they, they're, they're, they're owning with facts and logic and they can get it on YouTube.

00:51:51.760 They can get on Twitter.

00:51:52.620 So things have advanced.

00:51:54.040 I mean, there, there are some good things to say about this.

00:51:56.360 Uh, but in terms of limitations of it, there, there are limitations as well.

00:52:00.000 I mean, first off, we, we kind of have done this before that you saw a lot of this with the Milo college tour.

00:52:05.400 And I don't want to make this all about my personal pleading, but it's kind of like we, at one point had our own college tour in which it wasn't, we didn't have to go in the comment section and troll the comment section.

00:52:19.440 We actually had our people putting forth radical ideas and, you know, uh, a lot of the alt-right was at the end of it, rejecting it and calling it cringe or whatever.

00:52:29.980 Uh, that was a lot more powerful than this.

00:52:33.520 So we've kind of stepped back to be Frank and I'm not against it.

00:52:39.420 So I don't, I don't want everyone to think, Oh, I'm counter signaling these kids.

00:52:42.260 I'm glad they're doing it.

00:52:43.600 They're smart kids and that's good.

00:52:46.040 And this is a lot better than where we were when I was in college.

00:52:49.920 Uh, but it's kind of not enough guys.

00:52:53.840 And we've already done this as well.

00:52:56.200 And just being the people who are like cranks in the comment section is, is really, you know, limiting.

00:53:03.240 We want to be the article, not the comment section.

00:53:08.500 Yeah, very well said.

00:53:10.300 Um, the, the use of this term culture war, I'm, I'm teeing you up for a big one here, Mark.

00:53:15.360 It's very Caducean, uh, in the sense that we're, we're commandeering this concept and then using it to ultimately, um, put forth the exact same land project.

00:53:26.660 Um, what do you, what do you see in this Charlie Kirk phenomenon, Mark?

00:53:32.240 Uh, yeah, good use of the word Caducean.

00:53:34.780 Uh, I actually, I don't, I mean, yeah, I think it's, uh, um, it's, uh, exactly what Richard said.

00:53:43.760 I mean, I, I don't have many points to disagree.

00:53:46.020 I mean, he's a kind of, um, it is a kind of shadow of the alt-right, right?

00:53:51.100 It is, it's the alt-light and the alt-light has become more robust in a lot of ways than it was previously.

00:53:57.360 So I think that they realize, um, this false opposition, as it were, realizes that this has to be, the alt-light has to grow into a kind of robust movement.

00:54:06.700 Um, so it's a fascinating thing to watch.

00:54:08.780 Whereas, um, you know, uh, six years ago or seven years ago, they wouldn't want a robust alt-light, right?

00:54:15.900 Yeah.

00:54:16.300 So I guess that is a sort of positive development in the sense that the Overton, Overton, uh, window has moved.

00:54:23.220 Um, you know, things increasingly are becoming polarized as, as I was talking about earlier.

00:54:27.360 Um, you know, one thing that we didn't mention, for example, is, um, these Proud Boys got arrested and they were put in jail for four years.

00:54:35.920 That's, that's a kind of remarkable thing that's happened.

00:54:39.260 Um, because if you watch the video, it was basically a melee between two parties.

00:54:43.560 Now, granted, uh, the Proud Boys probably outweighed each one by a hundred pounds each, but it doesn't matter.

00:54:51.560 There was, it was a melee between two parties that were both involved in a, in a, in a fight.

00:54:56.900 And, uh, this, I think the story is that the, um, Antifa kind of characteristically started the melee.

00:55:04.500 Oh, of course.

00:55:05.100 Uh, yeah.

00:55:06.300 So now they, they, these guys should not have gone to jail, let alone for four years.

00:55:12.380 I mean, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a kind of insane miscarriage of, uh, justice in my mind.

00:55:18.600 Um, because it was a fight, uh, that was not started by them.

00:55:22.940 They were basically defending themselves.

00:55:24.760 They might, they might've been a little excessive in their reaction.

00:55:27.620 Maybe a slap on the wrist could have been warranted, but, uh, going to jail for four years.

00:55:33.980 Uh, now the judge in that case was saying, um, that, you know, he, he sort of evoked the, uh, uh, the pre-Hitler period of the 1930s.

00:55:43.340 And that, like, if we, if we allow these sort of street battles to take place, then next thing you'll know, next thing you'll know, a fascism will have taken hold in the United States.

00:55:51.740 Now, they, I mean, the truth is actually that this is actually the worst thing.

00:55:56.980 This is actually a kind of worse reaction because now everyone, you know, in now kind of relatively mainstream Republicans are reacting to this and saying, Hey, that's a miscarriage of justice.

00:56:09.120 Right.

00:56:10.040 Yeah.

00:56:10.280 It allowed this kind of like, kind of a relatively innocuous street battle to occur that most people would not have been aware of otherwise.

00:56:19.160 Then people just would not have been aware of it.

00:56:22.460 But now there are these kinds of mainstream Republicans rallying to the problems.

00:56:27.340 So, I mean, there were errors being made now.

00:56:29.780 It's not like, it's not like the judge is necessarily some act judge.

00:56:34.940 I don't know that he was, I haven't looked at the case very closely and he probably was, he could have just been sort of a kind of mainstream sort of increased polarization.

00:56:48.260 He failed.

00:56:49.060 I mean, it's exactly, he, he heightened the sort of salience of the case by putting these guys in jail for four years and he, and he made them a kind of sympathetic case to the broader, you know, sort of Republican or conservative movement.

00:57:02.240 Um, so it was a good thing also, I mean, for, you know, this sort of the, the accelerating pluralization, it was obviously a terrible and tragic thing for these young men who have to go to jail for four years.

00:57:13.560 But, you know, I mean, things, so things will continue apace, but, um, I, as Richard was saying earlier, I, I think that there is going to be a relative silence because they are actively suppressing voices on the right now.

00:57:27.920 That's the difference.

00:57:28.660 But people are not becoming less radical.

00:57:31.680 People are becoming more radical.

00:57:34.200 And, you know, because the, the, the kind of, uh, uh, the chains have been, uh, sort of, we've been sort of unshackled.

00:57:40.480 I mean, we've kind of been psychologically unshackled in this country and there's no going back.

00:57:45.020 So the, uh, a confrontation that lies, uh, so what we can predict and people in the movement have been predicting this for a very long time is that, um, this kind of corporate and even state, uh, suppression will increase.

00:57:57.040 And that's what we'll face.

00:57:58.600 We'll, and they're not going to like, they're not going to sort of just give up on their sort of hold on power.

00:58:06.060 Uh, they will eventually lose their power, but it's, it's a kind of, uh, I think there's going to be a kind of dark, uh, struggle ahead.

00:58:13.320 And so there has been a campaign, a conscious campaign to demoralize us for a very long period of time.

00:58:18.000 Just us now being aware that it is a conscious campaign is a kind of moralizing, liberating thing.

00:58:24.340 Yeah.

00:58:24.660 Because, because what we're facing, what we're looking at right now is the cheerleaders on the other side of the football field.

00:58:32.520 That's basically what we're looking at now.

00:58:34.520 Right.

00:58:35.300 So, but now we're becoming aware that it is actually a football game that we're in.

00:58:38.660 We're actually in a contest.

00:58:40.440 Right. 1.00

00:58:40.880 And now we know this is all kind of bullshit. 0.99

00:58:44.220 Um, and we can react accordingly, you know? 0.97

00:58:47.440 So I, I think that these things, uh, you know, what's the kind of old, uh, sort of, uh, hackneyed, uh, aphorism, you know, when the tough, when the going gets tough, the tough get going.

00:58:57.540 And so I think that there is going to be a kind of, uh, a distilling and purifying of people that are involved in this movement.

00:59:03.720 And we kind of had this conversation, uh, last time that there is, uh, yeah, a kind of middle class sort of disappeared from the movement.

00:59:11.620 It seemed to some extent, right.

00:59:13.120 There was a kind of norm, normie sort of middle class in the movement, including some of the guys that were holding torches at, uh, Charlottesville.

00:59:20.720 Like it, it had become sort of mainstream and it had become a kind of middle class movement to one extent or another, at least among sort of young men.

00:59:29.520 Uh, but that kind of evaporated after Charlottesville to one extent or another. 0.93

00:59:33.220 Uh, what remained were people who were highly intelligent and just not pussies basically. 1.00

00:59:40.020 And then another element remained as well that we talked about on the last, uh, uh, podcast, uh, some elements that, uh, Augustus is probably dealing with right now, but who are just not good people. 0.56

00:59:51.960 You know what I mean?

00:59:52.760 Who are just kind of like trashy people and are doing this because it's a kind of heretical movement and they're not going to win in life in any case. 1.00

01:00:02.800 So they may as well kind of lose in a sort of dramatic fashion while telling people to fuck off in the process. 1.00

01:00:11.560 Right. 0.99

01:00:11.760 So in that you can kind of respect, um, it's the guy at the football game who runs out onto the field naked, like from the stands, you know, basically.

01:00:21.400 Yeah.

01:00:23.360 Yeah.

01:00:23.960 And so, uh, that's what we're seeing.

01:00:26.000 We're seeing a kind of, uh, purifying and distillment of the movement, I would say.

01:00:30.220 And we're, uh, uh, again, uh, as the going gets tough, the tough get going.

01:00:35.740 And I think that the, I think their side, the wheels are coming off the cart because they're dealing with the problem.

01:00:41.900 Their attention is they want to demoralize us, but they don't want to piss us off.

01:00:46.380 I've discussed this before, right?

01:00:47.680 Like they want to walk, they want to kind of demoralize us in a sort of subtle and gradual enough manner that we're just not like, Hey, you know what? 1.00

01:00:55.240 Trannies like that shit, that shit happened overnight. 1.00

01:00:58.400 It was like five years ago where there was, we didn't have this sort of phenomenon known as trannies as a mainstream thing that happened overnight. 1.00

01:01:06.860 And so they may have like, they may have hit the accelerator a little too aggressively on some of these things.

01:01:13.760 Now people are bunkered down to one extent or another, but they're also getting more intelligent.

01:01:18.580 They're also thinking of ways to get around this block, right?

01:01:22.040 So we're, we're going to be forced to become more intelligent and we are becoming more intelligent.

01:01:26.800 The people that I encounter in this movement are more intelligent than the people that I encountered previously in the movement.

01:01:32.940 I mean, it's just, there has been a kind of like a kind of incremental up, you know, IQ upgrade, um, in the movement among, you know, admittedly a sort of small population in the movement.

01:01:45.520 Uh, but you know, you only need a small population, right?

01:01:49.440 They have a small population.

01:01:50.700 Yeah, they have a small population.

01:01:53.100 So, uh, that's what we're seeing now.

01:01:55.500 We're seeing a kind of evolution at work.

01:01:58.140 We're seeing a nature, you know, firsthand and, um, we're getting smarter and we're getting leaner and stronger in some ways.

01:02:06.660 The, the move, one thing that I wanted to mention that I didn't say before is, uh, this girl, um, Samantha that was in the movement.

01:02:14.040 And she tells a story that I think is probably a true story that she, um, was dating a guy and that's how she got into the movement.

01:02:21.940 She'd been dating a guy that she, she said that she'd fallen in love with a guy.

01:02:25.080 And he was talking about, uh, uh, Turner's Turner diaries, you know, real, like 1.0 stuff.

01:02:34.080 And like, there's going to be a day of the rope, right? 0.98

01:02:36.600 He's telling that, you know, and this chick just happened to be, you know, unfortunate enough to like fall in love with this fucking weirdo, right? 0.98

01:02:42.920 So, and he's saying, you know, there's going to be a day where they're going to be hanging people. 0.92

01:02:47.940 And I actually think that that's probably like, I don't think that I'm, I don't think that she's just sort of like selecting the most extreme thing that she heard in the movement.

01:02:56.040 Maybe she's doing that, but I think it sounded credible to me that the first person that she encountered and she was dating was this guy that was into Turner's, Turner's diary and was talking about day of the rope.

01:03:06.300 Right. 0.99

01:03:07.040 That's an, that's an immature fucking movement. 1.00

01:03:10.260 Those idiots, we, we don't need those idiots. 1.00

01:03:13.240 That's the kind of like, they, they, they sort of failed a kind of evolutionary test by being that idiot. 1.00

01:03:19.000 The guy failed an evolutionary test that, that, so now, you know, so those were some of the elements and I don't, and I think that obviously there were, there were many elements. 0.98

01:03:29.080 And I talked about a kind of middle-class element that was in the enormity middle-class element that was in the movement.

01:03:33.220 So that guy was kind of an outlier within the movement, but there was, there, there were these sort of remnant.

01:03:40.260 Uh, parts of, uh, 1.0 effectively.

01:03:44.200 And that hurt us, you know, but who cares?

01:03:48.180 It hurt us, but it's not, it was a kind of necessary sort of evolutionary process that had to happen.

01:03:53.540 We had to sort of go through that.

01:03:55.500 Yeah.

01:03:55.900 Because we were a young movement, you know, just waking up to the fact that we were actually at war, you know?

01:04:04.460 Yeah.

01:04:06.000 Anyways, sorry.

01:04:06.880 Yeah.

01:04:07.100 And, and we were at a point where things were growing and everything was exciting.

01:04:10.600 We didn't, we didn't really want to push people away.

01:04:14.300 And so it's kind of like, all right, well, you came through that direction.

01:04:17.340 That's okay.

01:04:17.900 We're all here now.

01:04:19.260 Uh, but, but obviously that kind of tolerance is, is, is ultimately not good.

01:04:25.420 Um, but again, I, I, I find it, I, I don't want to get into a kind of optics kind of thing 0.99

01:04:31.820 where it's like, Oh, these idiots are so bad, you know, whatever. 0.98

01:04:34.360 Or no, like there are going to be some imperfect people who are going to come to this movement. 0.99

01:04:40.080 Uh, and, uh, I, I actually, I actually feel like the, uh, there, there are other elements

01:04:45.000 that are actually, uh, more toxic.

01:04:47.100 Uh, the people who, uh, like Patrick Casey, for instance, who just, just, their MO is demoralizing,

01:04:55.000 demoralizing the movement itself and basically defining yourself as, Oh, I'm, you know, this

01:04:59.760 kind of middle-class status signaling of, Oh, I'm not like those guys.

01:05:03.660 And I think, um, uh, I, I, I think that is, uh, uh, probably more toxic, but, um, yeah,

01:05:10.300 no, in terms of, in terms of, I mean, I, I did, uh, to your point though, about, um, Casey,

01:05:15.480 I did see that he was kind of straw manning a white nationalism, for example, right.

01:05:20.300 You know, in, and I was thinking, you know, I mean, obviously you have, you have this sort

01:05:24.900 of history with Casey and, you know, I generally have a history.

01:05:29.180 I don't know him at all.

01:05:30.640 I have no interest in him whatsoever.

01:05:32.460 It's just, um, you know, so much of what he was doing was geared towards, uh, we need

01:05:38.980 to have this group that will never have anything to do with Richard Spencer, basically.

01:05:43.920 And, uh, you know, it's like, all right, guys, congratulations.

01:05:48.340 You achieved that objective.

01:05:50.260 Um, you're the most like demoralizing, genuinely sad organization.

01:05:55.100 I think most anyone in this movement has ever seen.

01:06:00.100 Well, no, so, and I would, I look, I would, I would offer this as like kind of an honest

01:06:04.620 piece of advice to Casey, which is that, um, you know, it is kind of this sort of a mentor

01:06:10.260 that we used to have a don't punch right.

01:06:12.340 And a lot of times there's actually no value in punching right.

01:06:15.820 But one guy, um, that was kind of a master of this was, uh, uh, Pap Buchanan, the guy

01:06:22.320 never punched right.

01:06:23.780 Right.

01:06:24.100 Yeah.

01:06:24.540 And he wasn't, he was effectively a civic, uh, a civic nationalist as far as anyone could

01:06:29.440 tell.

01:06:30.180 Right.

01:06:31.320 Um, so the guy never punched right.

01:06:33.940 He never criticized.

01:06:34.800 It wasn't even punishing.

01:06:35.840 You know, you can punch right.

01:06:37.120 If, if you need to, like if someone's doing something wrong, but it's like Pap Buchanan never

01:06:41.180 defined himself as, Oh, I'm not a Nazi.

01:06:44.560 I'm actually the good guy that you can deal with.

01:06:47.300 He never in his entire career defined himself in that way.

01:06:50.780 Uh, and yet that is exactly how this kind of like post 2016, you know, GOP Zoomer, uh,

01:07:02.320 group defined themselves.

01:07:03.520 And, and it's just, again, it was bad for the movement for a long time, but I think it's

01:07:07.880 also kind of clear that these guys are not going anywhere.

01:07:11.080 Like everything they claim is obviously false.

01:07:14.840 Um, I don't see them getting mainstream acceptance anytime soon.

01:07:18.980 So I think it's kind of over, but it, it is worth just kind of dealing with it and kind

01:07:24.780 of having our antennae up, um, when similar people come in saying this kind of stuff, this

01:07:32.060 kind of, you know, this kind of intramural status signaling of, Oh, but I'm the one who's

01:07:36.220 pragmatic and you know, so on.

01:07:38.380 Uh, whenever I hear that, I just, yeah, you're dealing with someone who's not serious.

01:07:44.140 He ends up effectively, he, he ends up effectively treating us in the way that the old light

01:07:49.620 treats him.

01:07:50.420 Right.

01:07:50.940 Right.

01:07:51.340 So he's created this kind of Nord, uh, kind of narrow corridor for himself.

01:07:55.340 That's neither appealing to the people on the right of him nor appealing to the people

01:07:59.380 on the left of him.

01:08:00.460 Right.

01:08:01.480 So it doesn't benefit him is what I'm saying.

01:08:04.300 And so I would just offer that to him as just a kind of honest piece of advice and

01:08:08.980 Fuentes as well.

01:08:10.180 Yeah, no, I get it.

01:08:10.920 And, you know, Fuentes is like this little, like, uh, you know, evil, like sort of puppet

01:08:16.280 like figure, but I, but I, I don't, you know, I still, I would offer him that advice.

01:08:22.320 I think it's actually intelligent for the guy not to do that because neither of those guys

01:08:26.900 are getting, are going to gain acceptance.

01:08:28.880 I know they've, they're not getting accepted to the matrim.

01:08:31.340 It worked for them at a time because the movement was so demoralized, demoralized.

01:08:36.520 And so that rung true, uh, for a lot of people at a time, but, you know, again, that act only

01:08:45.300 goes so far.

01:08:47.660 Tyler, some months ago, uh, actually in my program, you, uh, expressed the need to kind

01:08:53.880 of retake the universities or not abandon the universities.

01:08:57.540 And, uh, Richard made a point earlier about how there was a time not too long ago where,

01:09:03.480 you know, to use an analogy, the alt, right, wasn't in the comment section.

01:09:07.920 It was the headline.

01:09:08.700 Uh, do you see in the same way that you once said, you want to kind of retake the universities

01:09:13.820 or not abandon the universities?

01:09:15.540 Do you, do you see a future for kind of retaking university activism, whether it's in the form

01:09:20.440 of, uh, of, of the kind of 2015, 2016 speeches Richard and others gave?

01:09:26.280 Uh, do you see any utility in that, uh, in the present or in the future?

01:09:31.080 Well, I certainly see a utility, uh, in the sense of how I'm personally doing it.

01:09:35.380 Maybe I shouldn't go too much into it cause I'm still in it, but, um, but, um, what I'll

01:09:40.980 say though, I do think it's completely necessary.

01:09:43.340 And I guess the way I'll go about this is because, um, me and Josh, we were on that Goist

01:09:48.180 talk stream last week about, uh, grifting.

01:09:50.780 Right.

01:09:51.920 And what I, the message I wanted to get across was that that conversation was not actually

01:09:57.520 about funding.

01:09:58.780 What the conversation was about was a, at least from the detractors point of view to, uh, our

01:10:05.460 suggestions that we needed to re get, we need to become professional.

01:10:08.500 We need to get involved in these kinds of institutions of power, which these battles are actually taking

01:10:12.720 place and they're not happening with guns.

01:10:14.360 They're happening with ideology and they're happening at an institutional level.

01:10:17.280 And it seemed to me that the uniting thread between the detractors, as well as the Casey

01:10:24.140 style amnets was a stunning lack of imagination.

01:10:27.780 That's what it seemed to me that this was actually about, it wasn't about funding.

01:10:31.480 It was about the lack of imagination.

01:10:33.000 It was a sense in which they kind of exhausted their avenues of thought.

01:10:37.260 We haven't had anything more to say about it or where to go in the future.

01:10:41.300 And so there it's, it's essentially, you know, it's a battle over people who don't want to

01:10:46.900 take it to the next level and understand that becoming that art and the article, not the

01:10:50.420 comments takes real risk and sacrifice.

01:10:53.040 And just to put this into perspective, uh, Yoram has Zoni, the guy wrote virtue of nationalism.

01:10:58.940 He recently did an interview and this is what he said, and this should be very telling to

01:11:03.600 everybody.

01:11:03.880 He said, the reason I do the work that I do is because we're trying to articulate a national

01:11:08.600 conservatism that will oppose the global liberal order that is not bound up with concepts of

01:11:13.860 race or biology, but instead our own kind of, you know, individualistic liberal order

01:11:19.020 version, but somehow in a nationalist context.

01:11:21.980 In other words, he was saying that he's scared of what we could possibly come up with as an

01:11:26.780 alternative.

01:11:27.480 So these people without their imagination suggesting that we're somehow outside of the arena, we

01:11:32.320 are not, they are completely scared of what we could come up with.

01:11:35.980 But the fact of the matter is we're largely repeating a lot of the same sort of talking

01:11:40.440 points and the same arguments and these same squabbles.

01:11:42.980 But in reality, we have an immense task ahead of us, which is kind of rearticulating this

01:11:47.400 new, uh, new foundations for where we should move forward.

01:11:50.340 And this should be the task that's occupying us, whether that be, uh, working on funding,

01:11:55.300 professionalization, uh, new articulations, new out foundations.

01:11:59.060 This is an arena that we need to reenter.

01:12:01.360 This is not something that we could stay outside of and just expect other people to do the work

01:12:06.200 for us.

01:12:06.780 It's going to take risk.

01:12:07.860 It's going to take sacrifice.

01:12:08.780 And it's going to take professionals that are willing to do the work.

01:12:11.380 And it's going to be a lot of uncertain work and we don't know where we're going, but

01:12:14.680 regardless of that arena, we're in it, whether we like it or not, and there's no getting out

01:12:18.620 of it.

01:12:19.400 Yeah, very, very well said.

01:12:20.700 And, and also we, you know, Harzoni, and I could, I could sense this, uh, unquestionably

01:12:28.060 when I, when Harzoni came on the scene and the fact that you found this interview where

01:12:31.720 he just expressed it is, is interesting.

01:12:34.000 Uh, but yeah, we are in the arena, uh, even if we are kind of silently there in the sense

01:12:39.680 that people are reacting to us.

01:12:41.800 Uh, but the answer to that is not to sound like them.

01:12:45.920 You know, it, it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

01:12:49.800 If you really want to change the world, if you've been red pilled in the deeper sense

01:12:54.260 of that word, in the sense that it has changed you to go and then say, oh, let's mimic all

01:13:00.060 the people who are trying to steal our thunder and destroy us.

01:13:03.800 That's the way to win.

01:13:05.040 No, you are becoming like them.

01:13:07.020 You are doing the exact same function as them.

01:13:09.400 You're leading us off into all of these dead ends and, and meaningless, you know,

01:13:15.920 virtue signaling against the movement.

01:13:18.420 So it's the exact opposite of what we need to do.

01:13:20.960 We need to become more radical. 0.98

01:13:22.440 And now, no, that's, that doesn't mean we need to become, you know, stupider or more 0.93

01:13:28.460 bombastic or whatever, uh, maybe here and there, but, uh, but no, it does mean that we actually, 0.88

01:13:35.000 we need to be who we are, our radical selves and not mimic people who are attempting to destroy

01:13:41.140 us.

01:13:41.480 Absolutely.

01:13:44.600 Agreed.

01:13:45.280 So on that note, we will end this edition of the Nick Spencer group.

01:13:49.580 Thank you, Tyler, for joining us this week.

01:13:51.680 Uh, it was a great program and we hope you enjoy it.

01:13:54.140 Take care.

01:13:54.420 Thank you.

RadixJournal - October 25, 2019

The Self-Defeating Drive for ＂De-Radicalization＂

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