The Summit of Richards (Audio)
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Summary
On this episode of Thick & Thin, I sit down with my good friend Richard Anania. We talk about how we met, how we got into politics, and how we became friends. We also talk about our mutual hatred of Donald Trump.
Transcript
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back together after all these years. Yeah. I guess I could say I never would have imagined
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that Richard Anania would be a famous public intellectual, but I could imagine that quite
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easily, actually. Well, I mean, I got lucky that all that other stuff took a while to come out
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because if that came out before, I would have had no chance. But yeah, it's wild. I mean,
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we were sort of in the same place. I mean, 15 years ago, 10, 15 years ago, and we were into the
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same ideas, right? It was like, oh, I think we were to Ron Paul. We came out of that era. It was
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George W. Bush. We were about being anti-war and we were about race science and all this other stuff.
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And it's interesting because I think we've had not the same trajectory. We're not at the same place,
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but there are parallels. People always say that on my replies. They almost give you credit or blame
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for why I'm so gay, in fact. Which is usually how it's articulated. I mean, we invented a new kind
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of guy because there's us. I think Anatoly Carlin is probably in this club. Jeff Gies. Yeah.
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People who just see, they see what this MAGA thing has become, right? We're not all in the same place.
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We're not all the exact same politics, but I think our understanding of the right and where MAGA has
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gone is where we sort of converge. Yes. And at the end of the day, you and I are part of the right
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on some fundamental level. And so we sort of hate MAGA more in a way. I don't spend my time
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doing the libs of TikTok thing about, you know, I cannot believe some blue-haired leftist
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in California said this. That's just boring. Like, I get it. You know, I expect them to act
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like that. But I think it, the going after the right, I think is actually more authentic
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and serious. It's very easy to sort of excuse people who are more or less on your side or
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wavelength or whatever and not critically examine them.
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Yeah, I think that's right. And I was just, I mean, it sort of became like stupider and
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stupider. Like, I don't know, like 2015, 2016, like 2017, you could overlook the right stupidity.
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You can make these equivalencies. Oh, the left does some things, the right does these dumb
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things. It was really, I think, you know, Trump, the way he acted during COVID. And then
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the election stuff. Because like, look, if they were an honest movement and said, we're going to
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have a coup, like you have a coup philosopher, you have Curtis Yarbrough, he's right there.
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Right, you could respect that. These people genuinely think that like 2020 is a story of
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like the deep state setting them up and like, you know, and Trump like won. And like, he's just this
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moral and, you know, like these assassination attempts, right? There's like, you know, words
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have meaning. You can't say this stuff. I don't think your candidate is Donald Trump. Like, how do you
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even like, how do you even think like this? Like, you have no self-awareness at all. And it just there
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was a just a brain drain from the right. It just consists. It's just like constantly became stupider.
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Well, let's, let's rewind and go back to where we were when we first, we didn't even meet in person
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as sort of the funny thing. We just had a bit of a, you know, E partnership of sorts back in 2010.
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Well, we met in, we met at the Republican National Convention. Was that wasn't that the first time
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we met? No, no, we met at the Menken Club way back in 2009, 2009.
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The Menken Club is part of the story as well. Yeah, yeah.
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So let's go back there, because I think a lot of people, many of whom are in the audience tonight,
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but also a lot of people who will consume this later. I mean, how don't know the whole story? I mean,
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how, what would you say about the right? Because I'll, I'll just throw in my two cents first,
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and then I'll, I'll let you roll on it. So when I, I was at Duke University getting a PhD and I
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dropped out of my PhD program. I think we also share that in common. We have weird, there's weird
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parallels. Our first name, what else is it? Sorry, but I did finish my PhD. Oh, okay. So you're not a
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dropout like me. Okay. But I guess you, you did go into the media and not pursue a academic career.
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So we do have that in common, but I was, I dropped out and the right for me was stupid in a,
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in a very different way. And I saw it, it wasn't IQ wise stupid. It, it was delusional,
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delusionally intelligent is, is one way you could describe a neoconservative ideology. If you,
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if you want to take their ideologies seriously and not just see it as a sort of, uh, you know,
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fig leaf over pro Israel policies or pro Likud policies or something like that. But it was,
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and I would see this among my own family of, you know, we've got to spread freedom and this is so
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great. We went into Afghanistan and, uh, George Bush's in, um, second inaugural address was just an
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uncorked expression of freedom ism. You know, we, we are got every, every child born on this planet
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is questing to be a part of a democracy and we are a force of God bringing it to them. I mean,
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that was more or less what he was saying in that, uh, you know, when you compare it to a Trump speech,
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I, I almost sort of admire the oomph that, that George motion and David from, or whoever wrote
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that, uh, it probably wasn't from at that time, but anyway, whatever they were bringing to it, but
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it was a, there was a sort of alt right and it did unify around Ron Paul. And if it had a unifying
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theme, that is one thing that we all agree on. It was being anti W anti neoconservatives,
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anti anti Iraq war, uh, et cetera. And within that big tent, there was a lot there. So there
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was a libertarian quality to it and not, not just libertarian, a kind of anarcho cap anarchist
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quality. And I think you're still much more on the libertarian wavelength than I am, but that was
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sort of part of where you were. And, um, and it was sort of like, well, let's get some HBD in here.
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Let's get some white nationalists, you know, kind of under this circus tent of sorts.
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Um, and, um, that's what it was. There really was a, I think this is a, something that's sort
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of misunderstood and maybe unknown to like a griper or whatever, who's 17 and listening to
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Nick Fuentes. There was a sort of anti Republican kind of anti conservative, um, quality to it.
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There was, it was not, uh, about social conservatism. It certainly was not about the,
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the anti-abortion issue. And it was like, let's just be a good old fashioned nation.
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Like we were back in the day, let's leave everyone alone. Let's leave the world alone,
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but let's not allow the world here. And I, I think there's been a, uh, you know, that's
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where we, I'll say this, but I'll, I'll let you talk about this a little bit. That's where
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we were at the time. And I think the alt-right was this nebulous formation at the time. It
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didn't really have an ideology or any coherency. It was sort of George Bush is an abomination
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and we've got to find something else. Yeah. I mean, I think there was, I think it was maybe
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a little bit like there was different segments, but I think the alt-right website, like, I think
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there was an actual coherence there. It was basically the Jews made Bush do it. And we have
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all these low IQ races. And the, I mean, I think this is where like a lot of people were at and you
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couldn't say that, like, you could be like, you could be publishing in tech and you had sort of
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these Lou Rockwell people. Um, and maybe we accepted a lot of their sort of views of the
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fed and, you know, the economy and whatever, but I think it was actually sort of coherent.
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I think it was, I think it was at the time, like they were, you know, there was these Jews,
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they had too much influence. Um, they won't let us talk about these racial issues. Uh, you
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know, we, we were early on the, on the woman question. We were all like, you know, women,
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we were before now everyone who tries to be kind of edgy says, Oh, you know, repeal the 19th
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amendment. I mean, we were, I think way beyond that. We wanted to repeal voting, I think not
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just, but yeah, go on. Yeah, exactly. And, uh, you know, I've, you know, I've gone back.
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I mean, I've studied the, I could say how it looked at the time, but I've gone back and
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I studied the origins of the Iraq war and a lot of depth that I have a, a, um, uh, pretty
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long, uh, uh, discussion of it in my first book, public choice theory and the illusion of
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grand strategy. And I think at the time, a lot of us perceived them. A lot of people
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perceive it today that there was sort of this neocon ideology was like actually a
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real thing. Um, and then there's people who think it was like just, you know, all
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Jewish, uh, kind of like Jewish, uh, you know, plot or whatever to just knock out
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that Israel. I don't take either of those positions. I think it was completely, and
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this is the parallel, I think, to what happened later in the Republican movement.
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And I think tells us something about the nature of conservatism. It was
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improvisation, right? I, I, the way you look at it, if you look at a month by month,
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year by year, it was like nine 11 happens. People are whispering in Bush's ear.
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Let's go take out Saddam. That'd be a cool thing to do. They want to take out
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Saddam. The people who want to take out Saddam are not thinking about building
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democracy in Iraq. Like nobody is thinking about that, uh, before, like maybe a few
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people somewhere, but like, I looked in like weekly standard and what they were
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writing. They were writing about democracy. And so we go in, we think we're just
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going to kick Saddam's ass. And then Bush is like, you know, what, what the hell?
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Like I have this thing, like, what am I going to do? And there's no WMDs and it
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sort of becomes a post hoc justification. And then you would go to national review
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and then they would write these articles like, Oh, support our troops. They're
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fighting because, you know, Iraqis don't have, uh, you know, freedom and freedom
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of the press. We're going to lose our freedom here. So it was like, that's
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stupid. It was like that, like they had to like make up a reason why we did this
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Was it similar with like Woodrow Wilson? I mean, I don't know if you've looked at,
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I think I've remember this from reading a world war one book that the war to end
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all wars and so on. What was a, there was an ad hoc quality to it of, of you have
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to justify this thing in some manner and heady idealism is appealing, you know,
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with, with Wilson, a, a, you know, former president of Princeton university, you
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know, no less, uh, that in, in certainly the progressive era, that was a way of
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appealing, a way of justifying. And maybe there was a, a certain repetition
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Yeah. I mean, another, another, uh, sort of, uh, it was another situation that was
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analogous and maybe this is a recurring theme throughout history, the civil war,
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right? It starts, uh, Lincoln wants to preserve the union. I mean, he would be
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fine with, you know, uh, preserving slavery in some States, but by the end it's
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the emancipation proclamation thing has to make sense. Why did we have all this
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carnage? Okay. We ended slavery in the United States. Right. So this is, this
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is kind of a very, uh, common thing, but I think this, but like, it sort of
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became an ideology and it's like everything in conservatism is sort of
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like this, like Trump comes down the escalator. And I think I, what we were
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thinking at the time, like we primed everyone to think about like, you know,
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immigration as like a national issue is like a racial issue or whatever. And
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This is my thesis actually, but I'll, I'll hear you first and then I'll, I'll
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respond. I mean, I don't know, like how, I don't know how important we were
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because look, there was like all with like the Republican base always hated
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immigration. Uh, like they beat back, tried to do immigration reform in the
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years before that. Um, and you're right. I mean, like Jeff Sessions would be
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like the first Senator to endorse Trump. So like that, to the extent that Trump
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Mitt Romney was pretty hard on immigration as well. He jumped on it in 2012,
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also sort of forgotten by people who are like Mitt Romney, Rhino or whatever.
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He was talking about self-deportation and astounding these notes.
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Yeah, exactly. But I mean, I think the immigration issues may be unique, but
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most other things like about Trump, people are just postdoc justifying like
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what, like Trump's sort of what, what satisfies his ego or his personal
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grievances. Like they all hate the FBI now. Like why do Republicans hate the
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FBI? Like in Congress, they're trying to hold up like buildings, like the FBI,
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you can't have your new building. You can't have your cafeteria or whatever.
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It's like only because of Trump. Like there was never a history of like
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conservatives hating the FBI, right? The election denial, again, it's all just
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Trump. It's like, it became the number one issue. All these Republican states are
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like elections are being, I mean, I've seen some data that like Trump does better
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among low propensity voters. So they might be shooting themselves in the foot by
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making it harder to vote in all these states. Uh, Kamala in Pennsylvania, Trump I saw
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was up, uh, by five among people who didn't vote in 2020, but Kamala was up by two, uh, for
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people who did vote in 2020. So wasn't there Richard, like they were talking about
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like, we don't know what is going on in Detroit. And it was some sort of sub
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racial sub tweeting, but in fact, like Trump outperformed like Hillary Clinton in
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2016 in Detroit, like, like they were, they were accusing Detroit of, of being, you
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know, um, stealing the election. And there was a sort of racial, obvious racial
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quality of that. They're out of their minds. Those blacks were voting for Trump,
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kind of greatest irony. The New York Times had this great piece about this one
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county in Nevada with barely any people and Trump won by like 70%. And they chased the,
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like the head of elections out because they think Trump should have won by more. And like
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they voted harassed us because they thought Trump should have got all the votes. I mean,
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it's not connected to reality at all. And this is sort of, you know, what became,
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this book became straight up, but it's like these people 15 years ago, and you talk about this too,
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sometimes it's the exact same people, right? They were into W's, um, crusade to democratize the
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Middle East, right? They were into all the retarded Trump stuff. And so like, it's a, it's a kind of,
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these aren't intellectual people. It's a, it's a, uh, it's like the people who read, you know,
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I always found it so interesting that like the New York post and like the daily mail are like
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conservative papers and tabloids at the same time. Like the New York times is not like a tabloid,
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right? So it's like the people who just read tabloids are like the same people who are
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conservatives just because they're looking to be entertained and they don't have their, you know,
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they can be just sort of led based on whatever the leader in power happens to be doing.
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Yes. I, I think there's a lot of truth to that, but let me tell a little bit of a story here
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that maybe adds another layer to the, what you're putting forth, which is sort of ad hoc,
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retroactive justification of a lot of their positions. It's all about Trump's personality
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cult and they'll come up with the morality and, and policy and politics later, which I think is,
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uh, largely true. So when Trump came down the escalator, he talked about immigration and he
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talked about it in a emotional sort of even vicious manner of they're sending rapists. And,
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and some of them I assume are good people and things like that. And there was a, a notion of,
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you know, what is this, what is happening? Because after Mitt Romney had lost,
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there was a consensus in the GOP that we can never do this again, that we are going to reach out to
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Hispanics, Indian immigrants. We're going to be the grand opportunity party, I think is how they were,
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they were pitching it in a autopsy from 2003. And then Trump comes in and, and, and totally changes
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the game. The establishment was the Republican establishment was pretty radically against
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Donald Trump. Fox news was against Donald Trump at the very beginning before they became his
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propaganda wing national review was against Donald Trump. We shouldn't be that surprised about that.
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People like Glenn Beck, uh, were against Donald Trump and they're now Trump fans. So, but they
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were against him at the point. And there was only the alt right that I think in a genuinely joking
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manner was pro Trump. Basically they're like, this guy is ridiculous. He's funny. They're these anime
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memes, but he's also racist. So why don't we just jump on? Like if there, there was a little bit of a,
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just dive in head first, no matter what happens quality to the alt right. The, we, we had done
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that to some degree in a much smaller way. And with our obviously limited capacity, we had done that
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with the Ron Paul movement. Ron Paul might get 5% here and there at most, he's not going to really
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change the game. Trump was winning. And so there was this odd circumstance where Trump was reaching
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people. He's reaching his own fans, creating a personality cult, doing it on Facebook largely,
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um, getting promoted by the mainstream media, CNN and MSNBC who were integral to promoting Trump,
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but he needed a sort of ideological arm and the alt right, which had next to no resources,
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but tons of energy and hilarity and youthful enthusiasm was like, oh, look, we'll do it.
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And it was a unique situation. And it's a situation that really ended the moment he won the Republican
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nomination, I think, but definitely the moment that he won the election. Um, and so you have these,
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so I think there is this funny way in which all of the stuff that we were doing, these debates that we
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were having on small web zines in 2010 are re-emerging in the mouths of anti-Trumpers. Matt Walsh is an
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example. Matt Walsh will say like, well, you know, the, what's really motivating Washington is their
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anti-white bias. And he'll even sort of hint at some IQ difference. I saw Don Jr. tweeted out something.
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You, you treated this of, of like, you know, they're low IQ basically when he's talking about
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Haitians. He actually, I mean, it was more explicit. I mean, he's like talking, it's like he, someone
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gave him like Steve Saylor bullet points. Uh, he goes, yeah, they're, uh, you know, the, these are
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low IQ nations. He's talking about Haiti. You invite the world, you become the world. I mean,
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they exact phrase it. I mean, it's exact, I mean, it was put in his brain. And, and, but it's dumbed down,
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but I think it's also impossible to say that they weren't influenced on some basic level from that
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world. And so you have these, these odd situations where, I mean, I remember mentioning this to the
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group, um, the other day where Laura Ingram was interviewing Trump and, and she was like, um,
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we're not going back to those days of endless wars and pro immigration. Like it's like Laura
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Ingram, you, you, you were the police officer on those days. You were the one denouncing people
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or getting them fired because they didn't support your endless wars and so on. And now you're just
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kind of, you know, a high and mighty about it. There's something deeply infuriating, but I do feel
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like the mainstream right has dispensed with the conservative movement that we were attacking that
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you could trace to say 1955 to 2005, let's say the Buckley I and with some neoconservative influence
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and they've, they're reiterating the alt-right in a dumbed down fashion. And I, you know, and I'm just
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going to speak personally here. I think you probably have a similar feeling, you know, like I've moved
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on, you know, when I hear this stuff in a, in a stupid form coming from the mouth of some conservative
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ideologue, I'm just like, I don't even want to hear this. I hate it. I've moved on, but I think it's
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also sort of not relevant when you're going against the grain in 2010 and you're really
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speaking truth to power to use that, you know, phrase that that's meaningful when you're picking
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up alt-right memes from 15 years ago on behalf of this bizarre, inane personality cult. I find it
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annoying to say the least, but to say we haven't had influence is wrong. I guess the question like,
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was our influence entirely bad or, or is there some like fun house mirror version of the alt-right,
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which is now mainstream conservatism, which is now national review. Like we won the argument,
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but we have this like skewed aborted version of what we believed. Yeah. Yes. The parallels are
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amazing. Even like, you know, so another thing that, you know, that you haven't mentioned,
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like being pro-Russia, like who was pro-Russia into that? We were so-
00:21:41.260
Yes, we loved this guy. They didn't even know who it was. Like we just knew this guy and we loved
00:21:47.660
him. Yeah. I mean, we were, yeah, it's, it's, it's really, the parallels are crazy. I mean,
00:21:52.220
Trump, you know, he was a celebrity. He was, you know, the practice was like the number one show
00:21:55.820
in the country or something like that. And all these boomers, they knew who he was. And yeah,
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you would turn on TV. You would turn on cable news at the time, right? But after you came in
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on the escalator and he, it was blanket, like CNN would cover his entire rally. He'd be on morning,
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Joe, every morning, just answering every question going on for hours with them. You're right. And so
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like somebody could look at that and say, well, he was just this very famous guy who was on TV all the
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time. And like that, you know, that, and the Republican base ended up liking what they saw,
00:22:24.700
but you're right about this sort of online internet energy. I think maybe one of our roles
00:22:29.820
was maybe causing liberal, like, cause we were out, we were out there, you know, I wasn't there at the
00:22:34.620
time, but the people who were my spirit was who were out there and they were like, you know,
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oh, this guy's racist. This guy's a white nationalist like us, Hillary Clinton. And these people would
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respond like, oh, he's a white nationalist. He wouldn't denounce just because anyone who kisses his ass
00:22:48.460
is like somebody he won't denounce. And then, and then I think the, the conservative
00:22:53.980
base, like the voters, the people who just watch Fox news are like, oh, all these leftists are
00:22:58.060
attacking him. So maybe there was like this indirect way where like, just by becoming the face of Trump,
00:23:02.700
because what the media wanted, like, you know, Hillary Clinton has a speech where she talks about
00:23:05.900
Alex Jones, probably best thing that ever happened to Alex Jones, as far as like being a respected
00:23:11.020
person in the conservative movement. And so, yeah, I mean, and it's amazing the extent to,
00:23:17.820
I mean, it's really is bastardized and stupid. I mean, I, you know, people will talk to me and,
00:23:23.980
you know, they will be like, you know, they love like, like bronze age pervert and like the way they
00:23:28.620
judge thinkers and intellectuals. And I, you know, I've had a little bit more recent experience
00:23:32.620
because I was more of a, like a, you know, more of a writer at like 2000, even by 2021,
00:23:37.500
2022, much later than you of being disillusioned with all this stuff. Like these people would be
00:23:42.700
like, oh man, you're, you know, my friend says you're a liberal now. And like, he loved your
00:23:46.700
tweets like three years ago. And the only thing they love is like, you're racist or you're sexist.
00:23:53.260
It's like, I'm more than that. Right. Like, like there has to be some kind of, you know,
00:23:57.580
thought it's only anyone could go out there and be, you know, racist or crude. And, you know,
00:24:01.660
I think maybe we're like this, a part of it might be just, we're like, we get bored easily.
00:24:06.140
Like I can't like sit there for 15 years, like using the same talking points. I mean,
00:24:11.900
you do see like V-Dare recently like shut down and, you know, it's nothing against them, but
00:24:19.020
you could have taken an article from 2008 and 2019 or 2020.
00:24:26.620
First of all, you should change because the world changes, right? Like immigration in 2000 is not
00:24:30.780
immigration in 2022, when like all your Latinos from Trump are having like these music videos and,
00:24:35.660
you know, obviously something has changed in the culture. And then there's part of it was just
00:24:39.340
like, you know, I'm bored. Like it didn't, it didn't work. Like you yelled about immigration
00:24:43.900
and said, we should be a white country. Okay. Now you have like these black and Hispanic Trump
00:24:47.980
rappers and all the college educated whites went to the Democrats and like now whites hate you.
00:24:52.220
And like Taylor Swift thinks you're a bunch of scumbags, like the most mainstream person in the world.
00:24:58.300
Yeah, exactly. Maybe grow as well. And start to question, question your assumptions
00:25:05.100
as well. I think you have, you, you have to do that. And yeah, I guess it's, it's also,
00:25:09.820
I think avoiding audience capture, you either have to be autistic, literally or figuratively,
00:25:17.100
you know, you, you just have to sort of live in your own head, you use reason, you marched your
00:25:21.980
own drummer, or you have to be a sort of arrogant asshole and just say, look, no, I'm, I'm going
00:25:29.340
where I'm going. You know, you can follow, you cannot, it's up to you. Um, I, I think there are a few
00:25:35.020
people who are like that, even ones that I disagree with. I appreciate that, that they're going to tell
00:25:40.540
me something I don't know. Um, or make me rethink something when you're, when you're like a underpaid
00:25:47.580
propagandist of the Republican party, I, I couldn't live with myself.