RadixJournal - September 19, 2014


The Wandering Scot


Episode Stats

Length

52 minutes

Words per Minute

138.32321

Word Count

7,200

Sentence Count

390

Hate Speech Sentences

34


Summary

In this episode of the podcast, we are joined by a wandering Scotsman named Colin, who was not allowed to vote in the recent referendum on Scottish independence. We discuss the reasons why Scotland is so notoriously left-wing, and how that might have led to its current political leanings.


Transcript

00:00:00.000 Well, Colin, welcome back to the program.
00:00:02.260 Yeah, that does sound slightly strange, doesn't it?
00:00:05.840 It does. It's good to talk to you again.
00:00:08.780 Well, Colin, you are a wandering Scotsman,
00:00:13.240 so you were not allowed to vote in the recent referendum for Scottish independence,
00:00:18.700 but how would you have voted?
00:00:21.100 Well, that's a tricky one, isn't it? Wow, what should I say there?
00:00:24.800 No, I'd definitely have voted yes,
00:00:27.420 because I think if yes had won,
00:00:31.180 it would have had a lot of very, very interesting repercussions.
00:00:36.900 For one thing, it would have shrunk the United Kingdom
00:00:39.860 into being a kind of insignificant state.
00:00:45.340 It would have threatened the British permanent seat on the Security Council.
00:00:51.460 It would have undermined the prestige of Britain
00:00:53.860 and therefore lessened its power as a bridge between America and Europe,
00:00:59.120 and therefore it would have greatly undermined the sort of transatlantic alliance.
00:01:06.720 And so, you know, from a kind of geopolitical point of view,
00:01:10.120 it would have had a lot of big effects,
00:01:12.500 even though it was quite a small vote involving only three or four million people.
00:01:19.380 Right.
00:01:20.640 And I think it would have been better for the UK itself,
00:01:25.280 like just ignoring all these kind of global impacts.
00:01:28.600 It would have been much better for the UK,
00:01:30.640 because not only would it have helped Scotland,
00:01:34.060 it would have helped England.
00:01:35.220 Now, in the case of Scotland,
00:01:37.080 a lot of people say that Scotland would have just sheared off
00:01:41.200 and become a kind of cross between North Korea and Sweden
00:01:45.760 with lots of welfare and mass immigration and the rest of it.
00:01:50.420 And, of course, you know, that sounds fairly plausible
00:01:54.580 if you look at some of the political positions
00:01:57.580 that the SNP and the Labour Party in Scotland take.
00:02:01.320 But, of course, being a new country on its own,
00:02:06.640 they would have soon had to confront reality,
00:02:09.620 and then that would have obviously pushed the country
00:02:11.720 in a much more rightward direction.
00:02:13.380 I mean, the reason Scotland is so notoriously left-wing
00:02:17.220 is because it's in Britain.
00:02:18.740 Being in Britain makes Scotland left-wing.
00:02:22.300 And then from the point of view...
00:02:23.640 Do you think just because of a certain kind of chip on their shoulder
00:02:27.240 of feeling like they're second-class citizens,
00:02:30.180 or why is that?
00:02:33.100 Well, yeah, it's sort of a complicated thing.
00:02:37.180 First of all, a lot of the young people leave the country,
00:02:40.540 and so you have a kind of older demographic.
00:02:43.680 Older demographics, they tend to be more welfare-orientated,
00:02:47.600 so they socialise medicine and stuff like that.
00:02:51.920 You also have a kind of...
00:02:54.040 Scotland's a kind of industrial or post-industrial country,
00:02:57.400 and so throughout the decades of the 20th century,
00:03:05.400 the country sort of adopted socialistic attitudes,
00:03:10.760 and partly as a kind of...
00:03:14.240 partly as a way of a certain national identity.
00:03:17.520 So if you look back in the kind of early to mid-20th century,
00:03:22.160 nationalism wasn't really a viable political option
00:03:25.800 like it is more recently.
00:03:28.480 So if you were nationalistic,
00:03:32.480 the only expression for that would be the Labour Party,
00:03:36.320 because the Labour Party had a lot of Scottish members,
00:03:40.720 a lot of Scottish leaders,
00:03:41.900 and the Conservative Party was almost totally English,
00:03:46.160 and even those Scottish members of the Conservative Party
00:03:50.300 sounded like English people.
00:03:53.180 So there was a kind of...
00:03:54.680 up until the 19...
00:03:56.760 That's interesting.
00:03:58.100 Just to chime in,
00:03:58.820 I mean, you can see a lot of that in the United States as well,
00:04:01.680 a lot of the Midwestern and Northeastern Catholic vote
00:04:05.640 going to the Democrats
00:04:06.840 as people who might have felt just a little...
00:04:10.900 you know, or Irish Catholics.
00:04:12.380 And again, this is definitely changing,
00:04:14.380 because the United States' ethnicity is fading
00:04:17.340 of any significance outside of, you know,
00:04:20.380 St. Patrick's Day parades or beer festivals.
00:04:24.060 But that being said,
00:04:25.200 there was a very strong component to that
00:04:28.100 of a certain kind of Catholic vote
00:04:30.300 that tended towards the left wing,
00:04:33.480 the underdog side and so on and so forth,
00:04:36.180 even though they're...
00:04:37.640 you look at them,
00:04:38.560 their way, their, you know,
00:04:40.140 their social values or whatever
00:04:42.060 were hardly leftist at all.
00:04:45.840 Yeah.
00:04:46.340 Also, Scottish working class politics,
00:04:50.540 there's also a very large sectarian element.
00:04:54.360 And, you know,
00:04:54.900 this affected things in various ways,
00:04:57.520 like up until about the 1950s,
00:05:00.700 Scotland tended to actually vote
00:05:03.440 more Conservative MPs in Labour, apparently.
00:05:08.200 And, you know,
00:05:09.300 the Protestant working class
00:05:11.700 tended to be unionist.
00:05:13.680 So it was in Scotland,
00:05:16.420 the Conservative Party
00:05:17.440 was always the Conservative
00:05:18.580 and Unionist Party.
00:05:20.540 And it was sort of tied into
00:05:22.540 Northern Irish politics as well.
00:05:25.220 So through unionism,
00:05:28.580 you know,
00:05:28.880 Conservatism was sort of bolstered
00:05:31.320 among the working class.
00:05:32.960 But then,
00:05:33.580 as you sort of move out of the 50s
00:05:35.340 into the 60s,
00:05:36.740 Scotland starts to become
00:05:38.180 increasingly Labour.
00:05:40.540 And at the same time,
00:05:41.560 you start to see the rise
00:05:42.760 of the National Party,
00:05:45.340 the Scottish National Party.
00:05:48.100 What is the history of that,
00:05:50.060 of Scottish nationalism?
00:05:51.220 Because, you know,
00:05:51.920 I was...
00:05:52.220 just before we went on air
00:05:54.580 with this podcast,
00:05:56.200 we were talking about
00:05:57.100 the comparison
00:05:58.360 to the 1980 referendum
00:06:00.880 in Quebec.
00:06:02.700 And you can see
00:06:03.940 a real historical background
00:06:07.280 for Quebec nationalism
00:06:10.180 in the sense that
00:06:10.840 these are French speakers,
00:06:12.020 they have a connection to France.
00:06:13.600 You had Canada
00:06:14.420 as part of the British realm
00:06:16.480 and having a very strong
00:06:17.880 Anglo-Saxon,
00:06:19.840 in some ways American,
00:06:21.260 you know,
00:06:22.480 component to it
00:06:24.040 and that they...
00:06:25.040 that the French Canadians
00:06:26.860 felt that they were different
00:06:28.480 and so on and so forth.
00:06:29.660 That kind of makes sense.
00:06:31.440 What is the history
00:06:33.100 of Scottish nationalism?
00:06:35.140 Where did this come from?
00:06:36.200 I mean,
00:06:36.600 when you were a kid,
00:06:37.660 is this something
00:06:38.200 that you would hear about
00:06:39.860 or think about?
00:06:41.980 Yeah,
00:06:42.560 you would hear
00:06:43.580 about the Scottish National Party
00:06:45.320 sort of quite frequently
00:06:46.820 from about the 1970s onwards.
00:06:48.900 They had an initial breakthrough
00:06:52.260 in one of the by-elections
00:06:54.820 I think in the 1960s
00:06:57.080 and then by the 1970s
00:06:59.720 they were kind of established
00:07:01.620 on the kind of political scene.
00:07:05.100 But Scottish nationalism
00:07:06.680 is sort of...
00:07:08.900 I mean,
00:07:09.340 the identity
00:07:11.040 on which nationalism
00:07:12.900 is always founded
00:07:14.980 has always been there.
00:07:16.240 Yeah.
00:07:17.040 Scottish nationalism
00:07:17.920 is like...
00:07:19.260 I mean,
00:07:19.600 Scottish identity
00:07:20.460 has always been there.
00:07:22.100 It's never...
00:07:22.620 It's never disappeared.
00:07:24.520 And it was just
00:07:25.600 because the British Empire
00:07:26.980 was so successful
00:07:28.780 and offered
00:07:29.620 so many opportunities
00:07:30.840 and disproportionately,
00:07:33.460 in a sense,
00:07:34.100 to Scottish people.
00:07:35.240 I think most of the
00:07:36.200 viceroys of India
00:07:37.080 were Scottish
00:07:37.660 as one example.
00:07:40.240 And,
00:07:40.300 you know,
00:07:41.220 because of that,
00:07:42.240 it wasn't really an issue
00:07:44.360 to make it into
00:07:45.520 a kind of political thing.
00:07:46.700 I mean,
00:07:46.920 Scottish nationalism
00:07:48.020 was expressed in other ways,
00:07:50.580 you know,
00:07:50.820 through military regiments
00:07:53.280 and the British Army
00:07:54.300 and through,
00:07:55.600 you know,
00:07:56.280 setting up places
00:07:57.360 like Hong Kong
00:07:58.280 and,
00:07:59.180 you know,
00:07:59.360 all these kind of
00:08:00.180 builders of empire.
00:08:02.340 So,
00:08:02.960 I think it only started
00:08:05.340 to become
00:08:06.060 a bit of an issue
00:08:07.440 when the British Empire
00:08:09.280 started to rapidly shrink.
00:08:12.320 And then,
00:08:13.840 you know,
00:08:15.360 then it started to,
00:08:17.680 even more,
00:08:19.480 it became an issue
00:08:20.220 from about the
00:08:21.360 late 70s,
00:08:25.060 1980s
00:08:25.760 because then you had
00:08:27.060 this decline
00:08:28.660 of British industry
00:08:29.740 and then you had
00:08:31.740 a very unsympathetic
00:08:33.260 conservative government
00:08:34.220 that had just no interest
00:08:35.860 whatsoever
00:08:36.280 in trying to,
00:08:37.340 you know,
00:08:37.700 protect or invest
00:08:39.340 or preserve
00:08:40.120 British industry
00:08:41.020 mainly for kind of
00:08:42.680 ideological reasons.
00:08:44.860 They saw
00:08:45.660 the old traditional
00:08:47.060 industries
00:08:47.720 as heavily unionized,
00:08:50.200 which they were.
00:08:51.660 But,
00:08:51.980 you know,
00:08:52.320 if you think about
00:08:52.920 a country like Germany,
00:08:54.080 you know,
00:08:54.340 they're,
00:08:55.080 racially,
00:08:55.540 they're not that different
00:08:56.320 from us,
00:08:56.900 but they've managed
00:08:57.540 to preserve
00:08:58.240 a lot of their industries.
00:09:00.760 And so,
00:09:01.780 you know,
00:09:02.320 Britain should have been
00:09:02.980 doing something similar.
00:09:04.280 They should have been
00:09:04.820 investing in their
00:09:05.940 own industries,
00:09:06.900 improving everything
00:09:07.620 and keeping the quality up
00:09:10.120 and productivity
00:09:11.280 is very high
00:09:12.080 amongst British workers.
00:09:14.820 But there was a kind of
00:09:16.260 almost ideological decision
00:09:17.860 to sort of turn away
00:09:19.600 from that
00:09:20.160 and at the same time
00:09:21.180 that sort of fitted in
00:09:22.100 with the interests
00:09:22.660 of the city of London
00:09:23.700 so to move the economy
00:09:24.900 much more to kind of
00:09:26.420 parasitical kind of
00:09:28.140 banking financial
00:09:29.140 sort of sector.
00:09:30.240 and that particularly,
00:09:33.580 you know,
00:09:35.000 alienated a lot
00:09:36.100 for Scotland
00:09:36.620 because Scotland,
00:09:38.360 many of the jobs
00:09:39.620 we're in,
00:09:40.120 things like shipbuilding
00:09:41.280 and coal mining
00:09:41.980 and steel making.
00:09:44.360 And so,
00:09:45.420 from the era
00:09:46.660 of Thatcher,
00:09:47.940 the Conservative Party
00:09:49.640 shrinks to about
00:09:51.560 like one or two MPs
00:09:53.680 out of about 70
00:09:55.700 or 80 Scottish MPs.
00:09:57.020 So,
00:09:59.760 so you have this
00:10:00.460 development
00:10:01.540 of a very
00:10:03.440 left-wing culture
00:10:04.580 based upon,
00:10:05.840 you know,
00:10:06.240 being part
00:10:06.860 of the United Kingdom.
00:10:07.960 So,
00:10:08.900 and so you have
00:10:09.980 two quite distinct
00:10:12.100 political cultures.
00:10:14.780 Scotland leans left
00:10:15.940 even though
00:10:16.280 it's not really
00:10:16.860 essentially left.
00:10:18.360 It's sort of
00:10:19.020 almost forced
00:10:19.820 to be left
00:10:20.360 by being part
00:10:21.680 of the United Kingdom.
00:10:24.020 And then England
00:10:24.780 tends to,
00:10:25.720 you know,
00:10:25.920 relative to Scotland,
00:10:26.620 it's a bit more
00:10:27.200 right-leaning.
00:10:28.380 But then Scotland
00:10:29.180 manages to pull
00:10:30.140 England to the left.
00:10:32.200 And so you get
00:10:33.020 more socialism
00:10:34.200 than you otherwise
00:10:36.040 would.
00:10:38.220 That's interesting.
00:10:39.380 And I'd never
00:10:39.960 really thought
00:10:40.640 about how
00:10:41.560 the Labour Party
00:10:43.300 and a certain
00:10:44.260 kind of leftism
00:10:45.600 could be
00:10:47.000 an expression
00:10:48.040 of nationalism.
00:10:49.320 And certainly
00:10:49.860 the Scottish
00:10:50.900 National Party
00:10:51.600 was,
00:10:52.880 by all,
00:10:53.560 you know,
00:10:53.800 outward effects
00:10:54.420 a left-wing party
00:10:55.520 if you just,
00:10:56.160 you know,
00:10:56.380 it sort of
00:10:58.180 switched
00:10:58.640 to the left
00:11:00.140 more or less
00:11:00.760 in the 1970s.
00:11:03.720 I mean,
00:11:04.320 in the early days,
00:11:05.540 the main
00:11:05.900 jibe
00:11:07.260 or insult
00:11:08.620 used against
00:11:09.620 the Scottish
00:11:10.180 National Party
00:11:10.900 was that
00:11:11.260 it was just
00:11:11.800 the Conservatives
00:11:12.860 in a different guise.
00:11:14.640 and there was
00:11:16.100 a certain degree
00:11:16.880 of, you know,
00:11:17.580 truth to that.
00:11:19.700 Interesting.
00:11:20.860 Yeah.
00:11:21.720 And the other
00:11:22.160 thing that was
00:11:22.900 interesting was
00:11:23.520 that there was
00:11:24.080 this, you know,
00:11:25.340 you had an
00:11:26.200 expression of
00:11:27.600 Scottish nationalism
00:11:28.440 that manifested
00:11:30.340 in terms of
00:11:31.160 these kind of
00:11:31.900 Labour,
00:11:32.440 left-wing
00:11:32.860 kind of ideas.
00:11:34.340 And that was
00:11:35.100 in a way
00:11:35.540 a reaction
00:11:36.220 to this
00:11:37.000 Anglo-Saxon-Thatcherite
00:11:40.220 neoliberalism
00:11:41.340 of, you know,
00:11:42.660 unfettered
00:11:43.380 capitalism
00:11:44.080 and unending
00:11:45.120 individuality
00:11:46.320 and all this
00:11:46.880 kind of stuff.
00:11:48.300 So it's
00:11:48.880 very interesting.
00:11:49.760 It shows
00:11:50.460 once you kind of
00:11:51.040 dig into
00:11:51.720 left-right divides,
00:11:54.040 they become
00:11:54.620 much more
00:11:55.300 complicated
00:11:55.960 and much more
00:11:56.640 messy.
00:11:57.960 I mean,
00:11:58.240 think of it
00:11:58.640 from this point of view.
00:11:59.620 I mean,
00:11:59.940 Scottish voters
00:12:01.080 voting for
00:12:01.840 a Scottish
00:12:02.320 National Party
00:12:03.280 MP to go to
00:12:05.440 Westminster
00:12:06.260 makes no sense
00:12:07.580 whatsoever.
00:12:08.300 Right.
00:12:09.220 Because, you know,
00:12:09.860 Scotland,
00:12:10.380 it's like less
00:12:10.920 than 10%
00:12:11.420 of the population.
00:12:12.460 So even if
00:12:13.240 everybody in Scotland
00:12:14.380 voted SNP,
00:12:15.820 that would just
00:12:16.960 create a group
00:12:18.280 of about 70
00:12:19.120 Scottish National
00:12:20.000 MPs in
00:12:20.880 Westminster.
00:12:22.220 What can they do?
00:12:23.300 Nothing,
00:12:23.840 obviously.
00:12:25.040 But by voting
00:12:25.780 Labour,
00:12:27.440 then there's a
00:12:28.260 real chance
00:12:28.860 of, like,
00:12:29.820 swinging the
00:12:30.320 election one way
00:12:31.080 or the other.
00:12:31.620 So they become,
00:12:32.620 in a sense,
00:12:33.340 it's a sort of
00:12:33.940 kingmaker position.
00:12:36.140 So it makes
00:12:37.140 sense to be
00:12:38.340 Scottish,
00:12:39.320 if you're a
00:12:39.840 Scottish nationalist,
00:12:40.920 a supporter,
00:12:42.160 you tend to think
00:12:42.940 Westminster,
00:12:44.200 Labour,
00:12:45.340 Scottish Parliament,
00:12:46.220 SNP.
00:12:47.440 Interesting.
00:12:48.380 What do you think
00:12:49.200 is the future
00:12:50.200 of the United
00:12:51.720 Kingdom
00:12:52.240 and federalism
00:12:54.420 and so on
00:12:54.960 and so forth?
00:12:55.420 You know,
00:12:56.300 one interesting thing
00:12:57.700 that I've come across
00:12:59.020 when I've been
00:12:59.840 researching this matter
00:13:01.520 and reading about
00:13:02.860 the referendum
00:13:03.340 is that there's
00:13:04.520 this double standard
00:13:05.760 in a way
00:13:06.960 with Scottish
00:13:07.740 nationalism
00:13:08.260 where, you know,
00:13:10.300 Scotland at the
00:13:11.320 moment has
00:13:12.080 a large degree
00:13:13.160 of autonomy.
00:13:15.020 Well, I guess,
00:13:15.760 whether it's large,
00:13:16.620 I guess,
00:13:16.940 depends on your
00:13:17.420 perspective.
00:13:17.940 But it has
00:13:18.600 autonomy in
00:13:20.680 questions of
00:13:21.520 taxing and
00:13:22.100 spending
00:13:22.540 within Scotland.
00:13:24.460 At the same
00:13:25.300 time,
00:13:26.600 in a way,
00:13:27.200 the English
00:13:27.700 don't have
00:13:28.660 that benefit.
00:13:32.040 You know,
00:13:32.260 it kind of
00:13:32.760 reminds me,
00:13:33.380 there's something
00:13:33.880 to the English
00:13:34.460 soul.
00:13:34.880 There was
00:13:35.700 this movie
00:13:36.260 that came
00:13:36.680 out around
00:13:37.020 ten years
00:13:37.560 ago.
00:13:39.320 There was
00:13:39.860 a kind
00:13:40.360 of spy
00:13:40.940 movie
00:13:41.340 about the
00:13:41.720 beginning
00:13:41.960 of the CIA
00:13:42.640 called
00:13:43.000 The Good
00:13:43.320 Shepherd.
00:13:44.340 And the
00:13:44.840 Matt Damon
00:13:45.420 character
00:13:45.960 was actually
00:13:46.540 talking with
00:13:47.400 this Joe
00:13:48.360 Pesci
00:13:48.780 character,
00:13:49.880 who was
00:13:50.180 this quintessential
00:13:51.480 Italian.
00:13:52.460 And he said,
00:13:52.860 you know,
00:13:53.040 we Italians,
00:13:53.920 we have our
00:13:54.480 food and
00:13:56.160 family,
00:13:56.980 and the
00:13:57.640 Jews,
00:13:58.080 they have
00:13:58.320 their religion,
00:13:59.620 and you
00:14:00.520 WASP,
00:14:01.300 what do you
00:14:01.660 have?
00:14:02.380 And he said,
00:14:02.980 you know,
00:14:03.160 we have the
00:14:03.660 United States
00:14:04.240 of America,
00:14:04.920 the rest
00:14:05.200 of you
00:14:05.420 people are
00:14:05.860 just visitors.
00:14:07.100 And it
00:14:07.420 was this,
00:14:08.080 you know,
00:14:08.420 kind of,
00:14:09.060 a certain
00:14:09.480 kind of WASP
00:14:10.360 feeling where,
00:14:11.720 you know,
00:14:11.940 the English
00:14:12.560 are almost
00:14:13.280 this,
00:14:14.660 there are
00:14:15.560 kind of
00:14:15.880 people without
00:14:17.140 that national
00:14:18.200 identity and
00:14:18.960 without certainly
00:14:19.940 a national
00:14:20.400 autonomy,
00:14:21.420 but then they
00:14:21.840 almost feel
00:14:22.460 like they're
00:14:23.220 the ones
00:14:23.840 who run
00:14:24.940 the show
00:14:25.360 in the UK,
00:14:25.980 or at the
00:14:26.200 very least
00:14:26.620 the UK
00:14:27.020 kind of
00:14:27.380 represents
00:14:27.820 them.
00:14:29.040 And so
00:14:29.780 anyway,
00:14:30.140 just to back
00:14:30.720 up again
00:14:31.260 to what I
00:14:31.580 was saying,
00:14:32.540 you know,
00:14:33.220 from one
00:14:33.780 perspective,
00:14:34.220 you could
00:14:34.580 say that
00:14:34.960 the Scots
00:14:35.600 are running
00:14:36.600 the English
00:14:37.360 because,
00:14:37.940 you know,
00:14:38.460 the Scottish
00:14:39.540 parliamentarians
00:14:40.360 have the
00:14:40.640 ability to
00:14:41.460 basically have
00:14:43.140 autonomy where
00:14:43.940 they determine
00:14:44.700 taxing and
00:14:45.780 spending issues
00:14:47.260 within their
00:14:47.780 own realm,
00:14:48.640 but then
00:14:48.960 they can
00:14:49.540 actually vote
00:14:50.460 on taxing
00:14:51.380 and spending
00:14:51.860 issues within
00:14:52.900 England.
00:14:54.080 So,
00:14:54.680 you know,
00:14:55.060 it's quite a
00:14:56.120 good deal.
00:14:57.420 So,
00:14:57.660 I mean,
00:14:58.080 I guess that...
00:14:58.760 There's not so much
00:14:59.360 taxing,
00:15:00.460 it's more like
00:15:01.140 spending.
00:15:01.640 Spending,
00:15:02.560 yeah.
00:15:03.000 Yeah.
00:15:04.080 Nevertheless,
00:15:04.860 do you think
00:15:05.820 that this is
00:15:06.280 going to...
00:15:06.720 I mean,
00:15:07.160 I guess there
00:15:07.640 could be a
00:15:08.180 couple ways
00:15:08.680 that this
00:15:08.900 could go.
00:15:09.460 I mean,
00:15:09.740 one outcome
00:15:11.260 of this
00:15:11.640 could be
00:15:12.020 that even
00:15:13.260 though the
00:15:13.660 vote was
00:15:14.140 fairly close,
00:15:15.920 that secession
00:15:17.060 is defeated,
00:15:18.700 that's a
00:15:19.280 bankrupt
00:15:19.720 ideology,
00:15:21.160 what have
00:15:21.480 you,
00:15:22.240 you know,
00:15:22.560 back to a
00:15:23.460 more greater
00:15:24.180 federal autonomy.
00:15:27.180 Or you
00:15:27.700 could say
00:15:28.080 that this
00:15:28.560 has kind
00:15:28.860 of opened
00:15:29.280 up a can
00:15:29.800 of worms
00:15:30.260 and that
00:15:30.980 there's
00:15:31.640 going to
00:15:31.860 be maybe
00:15:32.780 Welsh
00:15:33.200 autonomy,
00:15:33.800 there's
00:15:33.960 going to
00:15:34.060 be
00:15:34.220 English
00:15:34.580 autonomy
00:15:35.080 and so
00:15:36.160 on and so
00:15:36.440 forth.
00:15:36.660 What do
00:15:37.020 you think
00:15:37.280 will be
00:15:37.520 the outcome
00:15:38.520 of all
00:15:39.040 this?
00:15:40.440 Well,
00:15:40.760 the thing
00:15:41.280 is,
00:15:42.040 it hasn't
00:15:42.640 really been
00:15:43.120 defeated,
00:15:43.880 you know what
00:15:44.080 I mean?
00:15:44.260 That's the
00:15:44.680 thing.
00:15:45.760 I think
00:15:46.280 the plan
00:15:47.120 was to
00:15:47.780 defeat it
00:15:48.580 by a much
00:15:49.080 larger
00:15:49.580 margin.
00:15:51.180 And if
00:15:51.860 you had
00:15:52.640 say,
00:15:53.080 if it had
00:15:53.400 been like
00:15:53.660 70-30,
00:15:54.880 which was,
00:15:55.400 you know,
00:15:55.620 where the
00:15:57.540 opinion polls
00:15:58.120 were six
00:15:58.900 months ago,
00:15:59.800 then you
00:16:00.860 could say,
00:16:01.360 yeah,
00:16:01.480 we've killed
00:16:02.060 off.
00:16:02.860 But because
00:16:03.240 it's actually
00:16:04.080 quite close,
00:16:06.440 45 to 55
00:16:07.520 will be
00:16:08.040 considered very
00:16:08.660 close.
00:16:09.260 And especially
00:16:09.900 when you take
00:16:10.600 into account
00:16:12.060 all the other
00:16:12.720 kind of
00:16:13.180 distorting
00:16:14.560 factors.
00:16:15.180 I mean,
00:16:15.400 this was a
00:16:16.100 heavily distorted
00:16:17.120 vote for
00:16:18.360 no.
00:16:19.540 Like I
00:16:20.220 mentioned
00:16:20.600 already,
00:16:21.020 the media
00:16:21.920 was all on
00:16:22.920 one side,
00:16:23.440 except for
00:16:23.800 the Glasgow
00:16:24.520 Herald.
00:16:25.000 and you
00:16:28.140 had the
00:16:28.400 companies
00:16:28.700 threatening
00:16:29.060 to pull
00:16:29.560 out and
00:16:30.080 you had
00:16:30.420 the EU
00:16:31.480 saying,
00:16:31.960 no,
00:16:32.120 no,
00:16:32.320 Scotland,
00:16:32.640 you can't
00:16:33.000 come in
00:16:33.360 because the
00:16:35.160 EU member
00:16:36.180 states,
00:16:37.200 they were
00:16:37.780 very worried
00:16:38.400 about the
00:16:38.820 example that
00:16:39.600 would be
00:16:39.880 set,
00:16:40.280 especially
00:16:40.640 countries
00:16:40.960 like Spain,
00:16:41.940 which is
00:16:43.120 basically
00:16:43.720 shitting
00:16:44.100 itself about
00:16:44.780 what the
00:16:45.500 Catalans
00:16:46.000 will do.
00:16:47.380 So,
00:16:48.020 not only
00:16:49.060 that,
00:16:49.460 but then
00:16:49.700 you had
00:16:50.060 the last
00:16:51.000 moment,
00:16:51.600 you had
00:16:51.840 the
00:16:52.160 Westminster
00:16:53.060 establishment
00:16:54.140 sort of
00:16:55.340 jetting up
00:16:55.820 to the
00:16:56.020 country
00:16:56.380 and making
00:16:57.380 lots of
00:16:57.840 promises
00:16:58.220 about
00:16:58.620 additional
00:16:59.240 powers
00:16:59.780 and
00:17:00.020 taxation
00:17:00.600 powers
00:17:01.220 and
00:17:01.480 devomags.
00:17:03.140 So,
00:17:04.000 it's not
00:17:04.420 really a
00:17:05.560 kind of
00:17:05.780 convincing
00:17:06.360 electoral
00:17:07.620 victory for
00:17:08.400 the no
00:17:08.700 side.
00:17:09.680 So,
00:17:10.040 that just
00:17:10.460 allows
00:17:10.840 Scotland
00:17:11.280 and
00:17:11.820 Scottish
00:17:12.160 politicians
00:17:12.620 to keep
00:17:13.320 in a
00:17:14.520 way
00:17:14.760 kind of
00:17:15.220 blackmailing
00:17:15.800 Westminster
00:17:16.380 and threatening
00:17:16.980 trouble
00:17:17.460 and needing
00:17:19.300 to be
00:17:19.600 pacified.
00:17:20.800 And that,
00:17:21.540 of course,
00:17:21.840 opens up
00:17:23.480 an interesting
00:17:24.340 dynamic with
00:17:25.300 English voters
00:17:27.800 and how they
00:17:28.360 feel.
00:17:29.660 Because there
00:17:30.100 is a lot
00:17:30.420 of,
00:17:31.140 whether justified
00:17:32.420 or not,
00:17:32.940 I don't really
00:17:33.280 think it's
00:17:33.560 particularly
00:17:33.920 justified,
00:17:34.560 but whether
00:17:34.740 justified
00:17:35.140 or not,
00:17:35.640 there's a lot
00:17:36.240 of resentment
00:17:37.460 at what is
00:17:39.040 thought to be
00:17:40.080 sort of
00:17:41.700 special treatment
00:17:42.980 for Scotland.
00:17:44.780 Scotland is
00:17:45.560 seen as
00:17:46.800 having
00:17:48.320 certain
00:17:50.060 unfair
00:17:50.420 advantages
00:17:51.040 with
00:17:52.100 regard to
00:17:52.540 the rest
00:17:52.800 of the
00:17:52.980 United
00:17:53.180 Kingdom.
00:17:53.620 There's
00:17:54.160 a so-called
00:17:55.000 Barnet
00:17:55.580 formula
00:17:56.060 by which
00:17:57.460 more public
00:17:59.140 money is
00:17:59.780 spent in
00:18:00.420 Scotland.
00:18:02.420 And
00:18:02.660 there are
00:18:04.480 differences
00:18:05.080 for tuition
00:18:06.440 fees and
00:18:06.880 other things
00:18:07.840 which mean
00:18:08.840 that Scottish
00:18:09.440 people have
00:18:11.340 a lot of
00:18:11.660 advantages.
00:18:12.180 subsidies.
00:18:13.520 I think if
00:18:14.880 you had
00:18:15.220 the Barnet
00:18:15.740 formula over
00:18:16.640 50 years,
00:18:17.360 it's like
00:18:17.720 £80,000
00:18:18.380 per Scottish
00:18:21.320 person over
00:18:22.760 what the
00:18:23.420 average English
00:18:24.900 person gets.
00:18:26.520 And then if
00:18:26.840 you throw in
00:18:27.300 something like
00:18:27.720 tuition fees,
00:18:28.480 I think that's
00:18:28.920 something like
00:18:29.280 £27,000.
00:18:31.040 So just like
00:18:32.080 doing the
00:18:32.760 basic math,
00:18:33.860 you see that
00:18:34.680 the average
00:18:37.300 Scottish person
00:18:38.200 is subsidised
00:18:39.540 by more
00:18:40.560 than £100,000
00:18:41.420 during his
00:18:43.480 or her
00:18:43.780 lifetime relative
00:18:45.560 to the
00:18:46.040 average English
00:18:46.860 person.
00:18:50.140 So a lot
00:18:51.360 of that
00:18:51.580 rankles with
00:18:52.320 the English
00:18:52.720 and the
00:18:53.400 idea that
00:18:53.900 now Scotland
00:18:55.000 will be
00:18:55.520 granted
00:18:56.400 additional
00:18:56.920 powers,
00:18:58.160 that rankles
00:18:59.720 even more,
00:19:00.960 you see.
00:19:01.600 So there
00:19:03.200 is a sort
00:19:03.840 of very
00:19:04.120 interesting
00:19:04.640 thing happening
00:19:05.340 now which
00:19:06.440 is what
00:19:07.700 will happen
00:19:09.520 at the
00:19:10.560 election
00:19:11.720 going into
00:19:12.700 next year.
00:19:13.380 Now all
00:19:14.280 the promises
00:19:14.800 that Cameron
00:19:16.200 made, he
00:19:18.020 can't do
00:19:18.400 anything to
00:19:19.240 actually deliver
00:19:20.760 on now
00:19:21.500 because he
00:19:22.980 has a general
00:19:23.380 election to
00:19:24.160 fight.
00:19:26.440 But there's
00:19:28.440 going to be
00:19:28.840 some sort
00:19:29.260 of bill
00:19:29.720 providing
00:19:32.080 additional
00:19:32.720 powers for
00:19:33.340 the Scottish
00:19:33.840 Parliament.
00:19:34.900 But at the
00:19:35.360 same time
00:19:36.060 he's going
00:19:36.940 to have to
00:19:37.560 offer English
00:19:38.560 voters
00:19:38.940 something.
00:19:39.940 Right.
00:19:40.620 And then
00:19:41.200 this also
00:19:41.640 becomes very
00:19:42.380 awkward
00:19:43.000 because if
00:19:43.960 he,
00:19:44.720 one of the
00:19:45.860 ideas being
00:19:46.460 floated is
00:19:47.380 that Scottish
00:19:48.560 MPs won't
00:19:49.940 be allowed to
00:19:50.560 vote on
00:19:51.160 certain areas
00:19:52.520 of policy
00:19:53.040 that affect
00:19:53.980 England,
00:19:54.940 which are
00:19:56.220 already covered
00:19:56.900 by the
00:19:57.260 Scottish
00:19:57.500 Parliament
00:19:57.880 in Scotland.
00:19:58.480 So now
00:20:00.200 if you get
00:20:00.540 a Labour
00:20:01.020 government,
00:20:01.860 which there's
00:20:02.620 a very
00:20:02.820 high probability
00:20:04.600 that Cameron
00:20:06.280 will actually
00:20:06.900 lose the
00:20:07.560 election and
00:20:08.240 you'll get
00:20:08.680 a Labour
00:20:09.080 government.
00:20:10.500 If you do
00:20:11.360 get a Labour
00:20:11.820 government,
00:20:12.540 then they're
00:20:15.000 not going to
00:20:15.280 be very happy
00:20:15.860 with that kind
00:20:16.380 of arrangement
00:20:16.860 because a
00:20:17.460 Labour
00:20:17.720 government will
00:20:19.060 probably have
00:20:19.900 a UK
00:20:20.780 majority but
00:20:22.300 not an
00:20:22.800 English
00:20:23.240 majority.
00:20:23.820 So if
00:20:24.360 there's an
00:20:24.620 arrangement
00:20:25.020 that MPs
00:20:27.860 in Westminster,
00:20:30.160 the decisions
00:20:31.040 in Westminster
00:20:31.680 must exclude
00:20:32.580 Scottish MPs
00:20:33.760 if they only
00:20:34.180 affect England,
00:20:35.440 then they
00:20:36.600 won't be
00:20:36.880 allowed to
00:20:37.240 vote.
00:20:37.460 So you'll
00:20:37.720 have a
00:20:38.220 very kind
00:20:38.860 of almost
00:20:40.160 unworkable
00:20:40.900 situation in
00:20:42.120 many cases
00:20:43.040 because the
00:20:44.780 Labour
00:20:44.920 government will
00:20:45.300 have a piece
00:20:45.700 of legislation.
00:20:47.840 Now let's
00:20:48.220 just sort
00:20:49.040 of like see.
00:20:49.960 Now the
00:20:50.400 Scottish
00:20:50.820 Parliament
00:20:52.860 covers
00:20:53.520 certain
00:20:54.280 areas.
00:20:57.240 Let's
00:20:57.600 see.
00:20:57.860 There's
00:20:58.020 sort of
00:20:58.280 devolved
00:20:58.700 matters
00:20:59.080 and there's
00:20:59.580 reserve
00:21:00.000 matters.
00:21:00.640 Now the
00:21:00.940 devolved
00:21:01.500 matters
00:21:01.940 are matters
00:21:04.540 that the
00:21:04.880 Scottish
00:21:05.160 Parliament
00:21:05.600 decides on.
00:21:06.780 Reserve
00:21:07.220 matters
00:21:07.740 are,
00:21:08.480 you know,
00:21:08.920 that's
00:21:09.140 the UK
00:21:09.540 Parliament.
00:21:10.160 So for
00:21:10.360 example,
00:21:10.880 devolved
00:21:11.280 matters
00:21:11.700 are
00:21:12.240 things
00:21:12.820 like
00:21:13.200 agriculture,
00:21:14.680 forestry
00:21:15.720 and fisheries,
00:21:16.580 education
00:21:17.080 and training,
00:21:17.840 environment,
00:21:18.600 health
00:21:18.820 and
00:21:19.020 social
00:21:19.320 services,
00:21:20.100 housing,
00:21:21.240 etc.
00:21:21.920 several
00:21:22.360 others.
00:21:22.740 Reserved
00:21:23.940 matters
00:21:24.580 are things
00:21:24.960 like
00:21:25.320 benefits
00:21:26.320 and social
00:21:26.820 security,
00:21:28.000 immigration,
00:21:28.680 defence,
00:21:29.280 foreign policy,
00:21:30.260 employment,
00:21:31.340 etc.
00:21:32.320 etc.
00:21:32.640 Now if
00:21:33.540 you had
00:21:34.720 a Labour
00:21:35.700 government
00:21:36.340 after the
00:21:38.200 2015
00:21:38.720 election
00:21:39.380 and they
00:21:40.720 were going
00:21:40.960 to pass
00:21:41.640 a law
00:21:42.060 in England,
00:21:42.920 in Westminster
00:21:43.640 on agriculture
00:21:45.100 for whatever
00:21:45.860 reason,
00:21:47.080 Scottish
00:21:47.580 MPs
00:21:48.700 under the
00:21:49.960 new
00:21:50.180 way of
00:21:50.820 thinking,
00:21:51.480 Scottish
00:21:51.800 MPs
00:21:52.380 would
00:21:52.680 be
00:21:53.000 excluded
00:21:53.700 from
00:21:54.620 voting
00:21:55.000 on that
00:21:55.360 because
00:21:55.760 Scotland
00:21:56.240 already
00:21:56.560 controls
00:21:57.040 its own
00:21:57.340 agricultural
00:21:57.780 policy.
00:21:58.880 So it would
00:21:59.100 be unfair
00:21:59.420 to have
00:21:59.940 Scottish
00:22:01.480 MPs
00:22:02.500 voting on
00:22:04.280 England's
00:22:04.960 agricultural
00:22:05.460 policy.
00:22:06.120 This is
00:22:06.380 the famous
00:22:07.280 West Lothian
00:22:08.320 question as
00:22:09.060 it's known.
00:22:10.660 And so
00:22:10.940 then you'd
00:22:11.600 have a Labour
00:22:12.000 government
00:22:12.420 which has
00:22:12.940 a national
00:22:13.600 UK
00:22:13.980 majority
00:22:14.620 unable
00:22:15.520 to vote
00:22:16.660 on
00:22:17.000 agriculture
00:22:18.000 in England.
00:22:18.980 So you
00:22:19.300 see how
00:22:19.980 this
00:22:20.640 whole
00:22:22.060 process
00:22:22.940 of
00:22:23.640 kind of
00:22:24.240 bribing
00:22:25.020 the
00:22:25.300 Scottish
00:22:25.800 voters
00:22:26.780 with
00:22:27.120 additional
00:22:27.820 powers
00:22:28.640 just
00:22:29.660 creates
00:22:30.140 more
00:22:30.440 contradictions
00:22:31.160 in the
00:22:31.520 system.
00:22:32.340 Yes.
00:22:33.160 Yeah,
00:22:33.520 exactly,
00:22:34.240 that's what
00:22:34.560 I was
00:22:34.760 saying.
00:22:35.080 I mean,
00:22:35.280 I don't
00:22:35.780 know
00:22:36.880 where
00:22:37.500 exactly
00:22:38.040 it will
00:22:38.440 lead.
00:22:39.720 I think
00:22:40.440 a lot
00:22:40.700 of people
00:22:41.200 on our
00:22:42.260 side
00:22:42.660 got
00:22:42.960 excited
00:22:43.560 about
00:22:44.280 ethno-nationalism
00:22:46.060 or this
00:22:46.680 is going
00:22:46.940 to be
00:22:47.100 the new
00:22:47.400 normal
00:22:47.900 as
00:22:48.200 ethno-nationalism.
00:22:49.480 I wasn't
00:22:50.680 that excited
00:22:51.660 about it
00:22:52.320 at all.
00:22:53.680 I just
00:22:54.520 find it,
00:22:55.240 I don't
00:22:55.960 think
00:22:56.180 ethno-nationalism
00:22:57.060 is really
00:22:57.420 a very,
00:22:58.980 at least
00:22:59.440 politically
00:22:59.840 speaking,
00:23:00.460 is a
00:23:00.880 positive
00:23:01.320 thing
00:23:01.620 that we
00:23:01.820 should
00:23:01.940 be
00:23:02.060 putting
00:23:02.240 forth.
00:23:02.620 But again,
00:23:03.040 it just
00:23:03.600 seems
00:23:03.820 to be
00:23:04.080 an
00:23:04.180 ethno-nationalism
00:23:05.080 of horse
00:23:06.920 trading
00:23:07.320 and worrying
00:23:09.060 about who
00:23:09.520 gets to
00:23:10.200 spend
00:23:11.600 this money
00:23:12.260 on what
00:23:13.120 and what
00:23:14.080 have you.
00:23:14.840 It's not
00:23:15.080 a real
00:23:16.100 sense of
00:23:17.480 traditional
00:23:18.120 nationalism.
00:23:18.860 It's because
00:23:19.780 they're still
00:23:20.380 joined together.
00:23:22.200 You have
00:23:22.560 these two
00:23:23.000 things that
00:23:23.400 don't really
00:23:23.780 fit together,
00:23:25.220 which are
00:23:25.500 politically
00:23:26.260 quite distinct
00:23:27.100 cultures now.
00:23:28.420 The ironic
00:23:29.360 thing is
00:23:30.000 the only way
00:23:30.620 Scottish
00:23:31.200 political
00:23:32.100 culture
00:23:32.740 can start
00:23:33.760 to
00:23:34.500 veer
00:23:37.440 towards
00:23:37.860 English
00:23:38.160 political
00:23:38.600 culture
00:23:39.100 would be
00:23:39.900 if the
00:23:40.260 country
00:23:40.500 was
00:23:40.720 independent.
00:23:41.960 By
00:23:42.200 remaining
00:23:42.860 part of
00:23:43.340 the
00:23:43.440 United
00:23:43.680 Kingdom,
00:23:44.200 Scottish
00:23:44.440 political
00:23:44.760 culture
00:23:45.140 is doomed
00:23:46.980 to always
00:23:47.580 be
00:23:47.840 extremely
00:23:48.480 different
00:23:48.940 from
00:23:49.120 English
00:23:49.380 political
00:23:49.720 culture.
00:23:51.060 It's a built-in
00:23:53.220 paradox.
00:23:54.760 That's an
00:23:55.520 interesting way
00:23:56.120 to think of it.
00:23:56.660 I had really
00:23:57.180 not thought of it
00:23:57.800 that way,
00:23:58.240 but I think
00:23:58.720 you're probably
00:23:59.700 right.
00:24:01.400 Do you think
00:24:02.260 that also,
00:24:04.200 I guess I'm
00:24:06.180 going to move
00:24:07.100 away from
00:24:07.820 the timely
00:24:09.780 matters and
00:24:11.040 start to
00:24:11.460 talk about
00:24:11.860 bigger
00:24:12.320 questions
00:24:13.020 that this
00:24:14.100 raises.
00:24:14.780 Do you
00:24:15.640 think that
00:24:17.000 proportional
00:24:17.940 democracy
00:24:18.880 is really
00:24:19.720 a totally
00:24:20.920 outmoded
00:24:22.160 notion in
00:24:23.000 the first
00:24:23.380 place?
00:24:24.160 I mentioned
00:24:25.620 at the very
00:24:25.960 beginning in
00:24:26.400 this program
00:24:26.860 that you're
00:24:29.040 a wandering
00:24:29.620 Scott.
00:24:31.400 You're a
00:24:32.240 rootless
00:24:32.700 Scott.
00:24:33.680 In exile,
00:24:35.680 you go and
00:24:36.400 subvert other
00:24:37.360 societies or
00:24:38.680 something like
00:24:39.200 that.
00:24:40.380 You were not
00:24:41.800 able to vote
00:24:42.900 in this
00:24:43.180 election despite
00:24:43.920 the fact that
00:24:44.640 you have a
00:24:46.100 tremendous family
00:24:47.540 history in
00:24:48.880 Scotland.
00:24:50.180 Some non-white
00:24:51.460 immigrant who
00:24:52.640 has lived in
00:24:53.800 Scotland for
00:24:54.380 six months was
00:24:55.760 able to vote
00:24:56.680 in this election.
00:24:57.800 I don't even
00:24:58.280 know how.
00:24:59.680 I've seen some
00:25:00.680 geographic
00:25:01.200 backgrounds.
00:25:01.820 I don't even
00:25:02.180 know how a
00:25:03.680 lot of these
00:25:04.080 new immigrants
00:25:04.600 did vote.
00:25:05.280 Perhaps they
00:25:05.880 voted yes just
00:25:07.840 to say fuck
00:25:08.840 you to
00:25:09.540 England or
00:25:10.380 something.
00:25:10.960 You never
00:25:11.300 know.
00:25:12.360 But at the
00:25:13.380 same time,
00:25:14.260 it is kind
00:25:15.560 of meaningless.
00:25:16.120 Also, we
00:25:16.500 live in a
00:25:16.840 world of
00:25:17.520 everyone's,
00:25:19.860 well, I
00:25:20.300 would say
00:25:20.560 Europeans are
00:25:21.360 coming together.
00:25:22.400 When I look
00:25:23.400 at Salmond,
00:25:26.020 I don't see
00:25:27.060 some foreign
00:25:28.460 person who
00:25:29.620 is just
00:25:30.420 totally different
00:25:31.300 than I am.
00:25:32.000 Like I might
00:25:32.720 if I saw a
00:25:34.060 Chinese politician.
00:25:35.440 I might see
00:25:36.760 someone who
00:25:37.080 is just
00:25:37.360 radically
00:25:37.800 different than
00:25:38.460 I am.
00:25:39.040 Or David
00:25:39.340 Milliband.
00:25:40.220 Or David
00:25:40.940 Milliband.
00:25:43.400 Or Joseph
00:25:44.340 Lieberman or
00:25:47.700 something.
00:25:48.020 Yeah, these
00:25:49.020 people are
00:25:49.460 other.
00:25:50.580 But I
00:25:50.820 don't see,
00:25:51.400 I see
00:25:51.900 Salmond as,
00:25:53.080 you know,
00:25:53.700 I probably
00:25:54.480 don't agree
00:25:55.160 with Salmond
00:25:56.220 on, you
00:25:57.080 know,
00:25:57.780 spending and
00:25:59.160 taxing or
00:25:59.900 whatever,
00:26:00.560 political issues,
00:26:01.180 but who
00:26:01.440 cares?
00:26:02.200 That stuff's
00:26:02.600 not important
00:26:03.000 in any ways.
00:26:03.480 I see him
00:26:04.700 as just a
00:26:05.220 person who
00:26:06.060 is like
00:26:06.500 me, and
00:26:07.680 the idea
00:26:08.580 that Scotland
00:26:09.580 just needs...
00:26:09.960 I think you're
00:26:10.780 slightly better
00:26:11.380 looking now,
00:26:12.000 Richard.
00:26:14.500 Thank you,
00:26:15.160 Colin.
00:26:18.360 That's true.
00:26:20.560 Objectively
00:26:21.000 speaking, that's
00:26:21.700 probably true.
00:26:22.780 But, you
00:26:23.280 know, yeah,
00:26:24.520 he's just
00:26:25.300 like me.
00:26:26.600 And so,
00:26:28.040 I don't know,
00:26:28.500 I mean, don't
00:26:28.940 you think, I
00:26:29.620 guess what I
00:26:29.980 was getting
00:26:30.300 at, just to
00:26:30.920 summarize,
00:26:31.440 proportional
00:26:33.320 democracy seems
00:26:34.660 to be outmoded
00:26:36.100 on a couple
00:26:36.540 of different
00:26:36.840 levels.
00:26:37.380 A, we're
00:26:38.120 moving around
00:26:38.800 a lot, we
00:26:39.540 go to
00:26:40.780 different places,
00:26:42.240 just modern
00:26:43.260 capitalism makes
00:26:44.340 people move
00:26:45.240 around, people
00:26:45.880 aren't as rooted
00:26:46.860 in one locale,
00:26:48.720 and maybe that's
00:26:49.240 a good thing,
00:26:49.680 maybe that's a
00:26:50.040 bad thing, but
00:26:50.580 it just is.
00:26:52.140 And so, this
00:26:52.840 idea that we
00:26:53.640 have to have a
00:26:54.440 local representative,
00:26:55.720 that he represents
00:26:56.660 us, our
00:26:57.440 interests, I
00:26:58.400 think that is a
00:26:59.580 little bit outmoded,
00:27:00.400 and, you
00:27:01.340 know, as I
00:27:01.920 was getting,
00:27:02.520 again, we just
00:27:03.680 seem to be coming
00:27:04.640 together, there
00:27:05.560 seem to be all
00:27:06.300 these forces that
00:27:07.200 are pushing us
00:27:07.760 together, and
00:27:09.040 this notion that
00:27:10.860 you need, you
00:27:12.400 know, Scotland
00:27:13.000 just needs to be
00:27:14.080 independent, coming
00:27:15.680 from my
00:27:16.240 perspective, I'm
00:27:17.320 again, I don't
00:27:17.980 live there, I'm
00:27:18.420 not a Scot, and
00:27:19.120 I'm putting aside
00:27:19.960 some geopolitical
00:27:21.560 things like this
00:27:22.760 could weaken
00:27:23.440 this, you
00:27:24.800 know, horrible
00:27:25.380 unipolar world of
00:27:27.520 Washington and
00:27:28.500 NATO that we
00:27:29.000 live under.
00:27:29.420 I'm putting
00:27:30.140 that aside, and
00:27:31.240 just saying, you
00:27:32.000 know, what is
00:27:32.800 this in itself, and
00:27:34.380 it just strikes
00:27:35.260 me as, Scottish
00:27:37.080 nationalism strikes
00:27:37.960 me as meaningless, to
00:27:39.200 be as blunt as I
00:27:42.680 can, it just
00:27:43.300 strikes me as a
00:27:44.640 kind of throwback
00:27:45.840 notion that isn't
00:27:48.460 really relevant.
00:27:49.800 But anyway, so
00:27:50.280 that's, what do you
00:27:51.880 think about that
00:27:52.660 perspective?
00:27:54.140 Well, it's not
00:27:54.700 like everybody's
00:27:55.560 always on the move
00:27:56.280 or living overseas
00:27:57.400 like I am, and
00:27:58.400 most people are, I
00:28:01.280 mean, Scotland is
00:28:02.660 one of the
00:28:03.720 countries that is
00:28:04.700 sort of most
00:28:05.620 known for, you
00:28:07.440 know, people
00:28:07.960 leaving and going
00:28:09.180 out into the
00:28:09.840 world and making a
00:28:10.840 career elsewhere, and
00:28:12.020 certainly been the
00:28:13.040 case with my
00:28:14.820 family, with their
00:28:15.740 various members in
00:28:17.600 Florida and Spain
00:28:19.500 and China and, you
00:28:21.660 know, elsewhere.
00:28:22.640 Wow.
00:28:23.760 Yeah.
00:28:23.980 Because you, and
00:28:24.860 you also grew up in
00:28:25.780 South Africa for a
00:28:26.860 time as well.
00:28:27.720 That's right, yeah.
00:28:28.680 So I could have, I
00:28:30.200 could have ended up
00:28:30.780 there, you know.
00:28:31.240 So you, you guys
00:28:31.980 have just, yeah, you've
00:28:32.880 got, yeah, you're
00:28:33.680 really like the
00:28:34.240 Rothschild family or
00:28:35.460 something.
00:28:35.760 You've got a little,
00:28:36.800 you've got a little.
00:28:37.800 Well, I don't have
00:28:38.840 their money, but some
00:28:40.820 of us might, but
00:28:41.620 you've got a man in
00:28:43.120 China and a man in
00:28:44.060 Tokyo.
00:28:45.680 Yeah, but we don't
00:28:46.580 really synchronize things
00:28:48.020 as well as the
00:28:48.500 Rothschilds do, so.
00:28:49.580 But yeah, it's just
00:28:52.920 that Scotland is kind
00:28:53.860 of notorious, well, I
00:28:55.400 don't know if
00:28:55.680 notorious or famous,
00:28:56.840 famous or notorious
00:28:57.660 for that kind of
00:28:59.340 tendency.
00:29:00.580 So, yeah, Scotland's
00:29:01.760 one of the most kind
00:29:03.400 of rootless sort of
00:29:05.760 nationalities in a
00:29:06.880 way.
00:29:07.940 There is a sort of
00:29:09.860 similarity to the
00:29:11.600 Jews in many ways
00:29:12.700 amongst the Scots.
00:29:14.500 They tend to, you
00:29:16.460 know, sort of blend
00:29:17.200 in and sort of, you
00:29:19.220 know, colonize
00:29:21.140 certain other bigger
00:29:22.080 societies in various
00:29:23.400 ways.
00:29:24.340 You see a lot of
00:29:24.940 that in places like
00:29:25.700 London and Hong
00:29:26.480 Kong and, you
00:29:27.500 know, elsewhere.
00:29:29.000 But I do think that
00:29:31.020 despite all that, most
00:29:32.180 people do tend to
00:29:33.380 kind of, they're born
00:29:34.600 and they kind of grow
00:29:35.360 up in the same area
00:29:37.240 and they tend to
00:29:37.820 marry somebody from
00:29:39.180 the, you know, they
00:29:40.400 met in high school
00:29:41.140 or whatever.
00:29:41.520 So, I still think the
00:29:45.640 fabric of life still
00:29:47.460 exists on a kind of
00:29:48.660 national basis for
00:29:50.040 most people and
00:29:51.620 therefore I do think
00:29:52.600 that, you know, these
00:29:53.500 forms of nationalism
00:29:54.460 are important.
00:29:56.220 I think, you know, I
00:30:00.300 think the problem is
00:30:02.460 if you have too many
00:30:03.800 kind of sort of
00:30:05.800 nationalisms rising up
00:30:07.240 in Europe and then
00:30:08.120 they all start
00:30:08.720 quibbling about little
00:30:09.820 things and they, I
00:30:11.200 mean, for example, in
00:30:12.220 the case of England
00:30:13.260 and Scotland, you
00:30:14.160 know, we could start
00:30:15.040 getting all shirty
00:30:16.740 about Beric and we
00:30:18.580 can say that Beric
00:30:19.240 belongs in Scotland
00:30:20.140 and it's not part,
00:30:20.980 it shouldn't be part
00:30:21.460 of England and then
00:30:22.820 it's much worse on the
00:30:24.180 continent where you
00:30:24.820 have parties like
00:30:25.840 Jobbik who basically
00:30:26.980 want to take back
00:30:28.700 Transylvania and bits
00:30:30.280 of the Ukraine and
00:30:31.380 half of Slovakia and
00:30:33.280 I mean, so all that
00:30:34.820 kind of petty
00:30:35.420 nationalism is definitely
00:30:37.780 a danger and
00:30:39.820 something that has
00:30:40.720 to be really, you
00:30:41.820 know, considered and
00:30:42.660 countered by this
00:30:45.240 sort of alternative
00:30:46.480 right movement.
00:30:48.560 But I think there's
00:30:51.520 good nationalism and
00:30:52.440 bad nationalism.
00:30:53.920 I wouldn't write
00:30:54.700 nationalism off
00:30:55.640 entirely and in the
00:30:58.000 same way I wouldn't
00:30:59.180 entirely write off,
00:31:00.420 you know, democracy.
00:31:02.080 You know, I think
00:31:02.560 most people, they
00:31:06.380 tend to have a
00:31:07.360 certain degree of
00:31:08.000 common sense and
00:31:08.980 they recognize
00:31:10.820 their interests and
00:31:12.980 so, yes, that can
00:31:15.660 be subverted in lots
00:31:16.760 of ways as we
00:31:17.640 constantly see.
00:31:19.160 But I think if you
00:31:20.980 kind of like purify
00:31:22.100 things, for example,
00:31:23.380 in the case of the
00:31:23.940 United Kingdom, if
00:31:24.760 you did separate out
00:31:26.680 the Scots from the
00:31:27.920 English, then the
00:31:28.940 Scots would be able
00:31:29.500 to discover a much
00:31:30.300 more authentic sense of
00:31:31.920 who they are and the
00:31:33.120 English likewise.
00:31:33.900 the United Kingdom
00:31:37.660 is one of these
00:31:38.440 kind of like, it's
00:31:40.140 sort of like a mini
00:31:41.380 imperium.
00:31:43.680 It's still an empire
00:31:45.000 and because it's an
00:31:46.960 empire, it involves,
00:31:48.300 it has a kind of
00:31:49.060 ruling elite of sorts
00:31:51.220 or several kind of
00:31:52.300 ruling elites and
00:31:53.520 then it has all these
00:31:55.080 kind of groups that
00:31:55.840 have to be kind of
00:31:56.720 placated and, you
00:31:58.480 know, and so it sets
00:31:59.320 up all sorts of like
00:32:00.520 dirty deals and sort
00:32:03.620 of, you know,
00:32:04.760 counterbalancing this
00:32:06.300 with that and so you
00:32:07.540 end up, it's like
00:32:10.560 American democracy is
00:32:12.120 a bit like that as
00:32:12.800 well, you know, you
00:32:13.300 have to build the
00:32:13.960 coalition and so you
00:32:14.940 have to give everybody
00:32:16.480 something which means
00:32:18.240 you give everybody
00:32:18.860 nothing finally.
00:32:20.280 Yeah.
00:32:21.140 So I think if you get
00:32:22.980 away to, if you get
00:32:24.480 away from that and
00:32:25.260 you're able to kind of
00:32:26.260 create a sort of a
00:32:30.060 more organic community
00:32:31.520 then, you know, in
00:32:33.720 theory that kind of
00:32:35.140 community should start
00:32:36.040 to behave in a more
00:32:38.680 directly representational
00:32:40.300 way and express their
00:32:41.640 interest, their own
00:32:42.240 interests.
00:32:42.800 But multiculturalism,
00:32:45.080 globalism, the way we
00:32:46.520 kind of interconnect the
00:32:47.960 world really cuts across
00:32:49.600 that.
00:32:50.220 So, you know, so
00:32:52.340 democracy requires
00:32:53.880 nationalism.
00:32:54.260 You can't have
00:32:55.660 democracy without
00:32:57.420 nationalism.
00:32:59.840 Yeah, I agree.
00:33:00.980 I agree.
00:33:01.420 And I just, I think in
00:33:03.600 a way some of these
00:33:04.420 things are being
00:33:05.820 outmoded.
00:33:07.380 And again, I don't
00:33:08.060 have just one answer
00:33:09.460 like this is what we
00:33:10.260 need.
00:33:10.500 But I think it is
00:33:11.720 clear that we need
00:33:12.840 another political
00:33:14.560 philosophy, you know,
00:33:16.280 a fourth political
00:33:17.280 theory or something.
00:33:18.200 There has to be
00:33:19.120 something new that
00:33:21.220 isn't just a throwback
00:33:22.520 to something, you
00:33:23.760 know, before the
00:33:24.600 Second World War or
00:33:25.720 something.
00:33:27.460 In a way, ethno-
00:33:28.280 nationalism is not
00:33:29.940 new at all.
00:33:30.660 It's almost a 19th
00:33:31.700 century romantic
00:33:32.920 conception.
00:33:34.600 But we need
00:33:35.800 something different
00:33:37.560 that reflects these
00:33:38.860 realities.
00:33:40.660 And, yeah, that
00:33:41.280 avoids certainly
00:33:42.000 these pitfalls of
00:33:44.480 petty nationalism.
00:33:45.260 You're not advocating
00:33:46.740 the Russian model
00:33:48.220 here, are you?
00:33:50.160 An imperial model?
00:33:51.700 Well, maybe that is
00:33:52.420 what we need.
00:33:53.220 There's a sort of
00:33:53.740 Russian multiculturalism,
00:33:55.540 isn't it?
00:33:56.040 You know, the...
00:33:56.900 Oh, yeah.
00:33:57.300 You saw it in the
00:33:57.960 Soviet Union, but you
00:33:58.700 see it beforehand.
00:33:59.760 I mean, there's a
00:34:00.380 multiculturalism to all
00:34:01.540 these empires.
00:34:02.160 There's a multiculturalism
00:34:03.420 to the Austro-Hungarian
00:34:04.740 empire.
00:34:05.740 Yeah, yeah.
00:34:06.400 And in a way, you
00:34:08.320 have also this dynamic
00:34:11.100 that I was mentioning
00:34:11.920 before of the, let's
00:34:14.580 say, the host ethnicity
00:34:16.100 feeling like they have
00:34:18.340 the most invested in
00:34:19.660 the empire, but then
00:34:20.580 also, in a way, being
00:34:21.880 abused by the empire.
00:34:23.220 And I think that clearly
00:34:24.340 goes to, for white
00:34:26.440 Americans, particularly
00:34:27.780 southern white
00:34:28.640 Americans, who kind of
00:34:29.680 feel like, you know,
00:34:30.920 when you wave the flag
00:34:32.220 or, you know, put it up
00:34:34.020 in your white picket
00:34:35.800 fence, you know,
00:34:36.380 yard, oh, you know,
00:34:38.100 that American flag,
00:34:38.980 that is you.
00:34:40.420 And, you know,
00:34:41.100 America, we are the
00:34:42.040 greatest, we are
00:34:43.000 America, blah, blah,
00:34:43.880 blah.
00:34:45.000 We love the soldiers,
00:34:46.740 but in a way, it's
00:34:48.360 white southerners and
00:34:50.660 white people in general
00:34:51.920 who are most abused by
00:34:53.560 the regime, and yet
00:34:55.120 they're the ones who
00:34:55.880 paradoxically love it
00:34:57.460 the most.
00:34:57.880 You can kind of see
00:34:58.440 that with, say, the
00:34:59.000 English and the UK,
00:35:00.960 and you can see that
00:35:02.080 even with Germans in
00:35:03.100 the Austro-Hungarian
00:35:03.680 empire.
00:35:04.780 There was a kind of
00:35:05.500 multiculturalism that
00:35:06.740 was not really
00:35:07.860 serving them, and yet
00:35:09.240 they were the ones
00:35:09.880 waving the flag, you
00:35:12.500 know, for the
00:35:13.140 emperors.
00:35:16.600 So, yeah, there's
00:35:17.520 just a strange thing,
00:35:19.220 and you can also see
00:35:19.960 that certainly in the
00:35:21.580 Soviet Union and the
00:35:22.600 Russian empire with the
00:35:23.920 Russian people.
00:35:25.000 So, I don't know,
00:35:25.720 maybe we actually do
00:35:26.860 need a kind of, if we're
00:35:29.020 at a foreign, I mean,
00:35:29.600 again, this is ridiculous
00:35:31.960 speculation that I'm
00:35:33.180 engaging in, but maybe
00:35:34.580 if we, in terms of the
00:35:35.840 future, we do need to
00:35:37.060 form a certain kind of
00:35:38.840 cosmopolitan multiculturalism
00:35:41.840 within a European
00:35:43.460 empire.
00:35:44.280 I mean, maybe that is
00:35:45.220 what we need, actually.
00:35:47.680 Yeah, then that means
00:35:49.580 the Germans would
00:35:50.300 basically run Europe,
00:35:51.660 doesn't it?
00:35:52.440 That sounds like a good
00:35:53.400 idea to me.
00:35:54.000 Yeah, I mean, I know
00:36:02.040 what you mean, obviously.
00:36:03.500 I do think, you know,
00:36:05.120 Scotland could work with
00:36:07.820 Germany better than we
00:36:09.100 could with England.
00:36:11.840 But if the Germans were
00:36:13.220 running Europe, I think
00:36:13.940 you'd have a problem with
00:36:14.640 the southern Europeans.
00:36:17.400 Yeah, yeah.
00:36:18.600 There is a kind of basic
00:36:22.580 difference, I think,
00:36:24.640 between northern Europe
00:36:25.560 and southern Europe.
00:36:27.880 Oh, yes.
00:36:29.140 So you might have to
00:36:30.160 have a kind of like a
00:36:32.000 southern European
00:36:32.880 imperium and a northern
00:36:34.400 European imperium.
00:36:36.540 Yeah, no, we see that
00:36:37.580 with the euro, because
00:36:38.640 in a way, you know,
00:36:40.500 Germany, which is a,
00:36:42.340 you know, highly
00:36:43.360 productive society,
00:36:45.080 they like a weaker
00:36:46.400 currency so that they
00:36:47.560 could sell their goods
00:36:48.620 to other people.
00:36:50.000 And Germany, I mean,
00:36:50.640 they're still making
00:36:51.440 cars, they're still
00:36:52.460 making microphones and
00:36:54.320 all, you know, all this
00:36:55.640 kind of highly skilled
00:36:58.000 industrial engineering.
00:36:59.820 So they kind of like a
00:37:01.180 little bit of weakness.
00:37:02.260 I mean, obviously,
00:37:03.300 Germans have a fear of
00:37:04.360 hyperinflation and things
00:37:05.500 like that, but they like
00:37:06.680 a little bit of weakness
00:37:07.500 so that it feels cheaper
00:37:09.480 so the world can buy
00:37:10.220 their goods.
00:37:11.460 But then, you know,
00:37:13.160 the southern Europeans,
00:37:14.660 they liked the idea of
00:37:15.900 this strong currency,
00:37:16.960 like a German currency,
00:37:18.180 so that they could
00:37:18.900 borrow on it.
00:37:20.020 It's like, oh, wow,
00:37:21.040 look.
00:37:21.260 Yeah, so you have a
00:37:22.940 kind of distorted
00:37:24.000 symbiosis between the
00:37:25.700 two things.
00:37:26.380 Yeah, but then they also
00:37:27.800 like a weak currency,
00:37:29.080 I mean, you know,
00:37:29.600 because for tourism
00:37:30.280 or something like that.
00:37:31.060 So anyway, yeah,
00:37:31.940 there's just a lot of
00:37:32.920 weird, you know,
00:37:34.300 things pushing in
00:37:35.720 different directions.
00:37:37.500 And maybe, I don't know,
00:37:39.440 I mean, maybe,
00:37:40.460 I think it can work,
00:37:42.240 but maybe they're just,
00:37:44.300 it's always going to be
00:37:45.840 hard.
00:37:46.240 I mean, because we just
00:37:46.840 have so much,
00:37:47.580 when we say, like,
00:37:48.980 I'm a white nationalist
00:37:50.080 or whatever,
00:37:51.100 you know,
00:37:51.320 to a degree,
00:37:53.520 it, you know,
00:37:54.320 it's, you know,
00:37:54.840 what white people
00:37:55.920 are you talking about?
00:37:57.260 You know?
00:37:57.700 Yeah.
00:37:58.400 Are you talking about,
00:37:59.260 you know,
00:37:59.620 American Southerners
00:38:00.820 or the English
00:38:01.660 or the Italians
00:38:02.540 or Spanish,
00:38:04.160 Russians,
00:38:04.780 you know,
00:38:05.060 the Scandinavian?
00:38:06.160 Yeah,
00:38:06.600 the problem with
00:38:07.020 being white nationalist
00:38:09.860 is that nobody's
00:38:12.120 more diverse
00:38:13.420 than white.
00:38:14.160 And if you think
00:38:15.840 about it,
00:38:16.180 the white bell curve,
00:38:17.360 it's more like a walk,
00:38:18.420 isn't it,
00:38:18.820 rather than a proper bell.
00:38:21.940 Yes, yeah.
00:38:23.080 And it, yeah,
00:38:24.260 well, I was going
00:38:25.120 to say something.
00:38:25.760 It might actually be
00:38:26.780 turning into kind of
00:38:27.540 two bell curves.
00:38:29.020 Well, I won't go into that.
00:38:30.960 But, yeah,
00:38:31.420 there is a lot
00:38:32.160 because of assorted
00:38:33.080 of mating.
00:38:34.880 We're dividing.
00:38:35.820 Yeah, no, I agree.
00:38:36.680 I mean, maybe
00:38:37.120 uniting the white race
00:38:39.680 is such a difficult project.
00:38:41.120 It just shouldn't
00:38:41.680 even be attempted.
00:38:42.400 Yeah, I think
00:38:45.040 petty nationalism
00:38:45.760 is the way to go
00:38:46.960 for the time.
00:38:47.680 Yeah, yeah, yes.
00:38:48.740 Up with petty nationalism.
00:38:50.760 Up with a little niche
00:38:51.660 and then start
00:38:53.460 looking around
00:38:54.120 and thinking
00:38:54.560 how you can
00:38:55.200 sort of cooperate
00:38:56.040 with your neighbors.
00:38:57.000 Yeah, no, no,
00:38:57.920 you might be right.
00:38:58.900 I mean, I obviously,
00:39:00.360 I'm on the other side
00:39:01.320 of that argument,
00:39:02.100 but I definitely
00:39:03.240 see the point.
00:39:06.400 You know,
00:39:06.820 but anyway.
00:39:09.300 I think that's what
00:39:09.900 America was originally
00:39:10.920 for, wasn't it?
00:39:11.880 To kind of bring
00:39:12.500 the white race together,
00:39:13.740 but they fucked
00:39:15.500 that up somehow.
00:39:17.140 Well, but they
00:39:17.740 kind of achieved it
00:39:18.900 in a way.
00:39:19.520 I mean,
00:39:20.660 because I agree.
00:39:21.920 I mean,
00:39:22.060 America was this
00:39:22.680 big frontier
00:39:23.440 and it was just this,
00:39:25.400 there was a kind of
00:39:26.820 natural equality
00:39:29.120 to America
00:39:29.840 because there was
00:39:31.240 a lot of space,
00:39:32.160 there was a lot of room.
00:39:32.980 You could kind of
00:39:33.660 do your own thing
00:39:35.100 and you didn't
00:39:36.440 really have to
00:39:37.140 even cooperate
00:39:37.780 with others.
00:39:39.820 But, you know,
00:39:40.920 I think America
00:39:42.060 has achieved
00:39:43.340 the erasure
00:39:45.200 of,
00:39:46.420 or the evaporation
00:39:47.420 of ethnicity
00:39:48.640 more than any
00:39:49.740 other place.
00:39:50.960 Yeah.
00:39:51.540 And, you know,
00:39:52.340 because, you know,
00:39:53.020 I think I mentioned
00:39:53.860 this earlier,
00:39:54.540 I mean,
00:39:54.840 for now to be,
00:39:56.460 certainly at one point
00:39:57.940 there was a
00:39:58.540 Irish wasp divide
00:40:00.100 and all that
00:40:00.840 kind of stuff.
00:40:01.900 I mean,
00:40:02.360 again,
00:40:03.460 I,
00:40:04.460 to be Irish
00:40:05.240 nationalism
00:40:05.940 does not extend
00:40:07.200 beyond a St. Patrick's
00:40:08.440 Day parade.
00:40:09.620 And, you know,
00:40:10.840 we even have
00:40:11.540 German beer festivals.
00:40:14.280 That is as far
00:40:15.420 as it goes.
00:40:16.640 And beyond that,
00:40:18.220 there's just nothing.
00:40:18.980 There really is
00:40:19.740 a kind of whiteness
00:40:21.180 in America.
00:40:21.900 So, you know,
00:40:23.280 it's possible.
00:40:24.780 Arctic whiteness
00:40:25.960 stretching in all
00:40:26.800 directions.
00:40:28.940 Well,
00:40:29.380 we're the last man.
00:40:33.140 Now, you know,
00:40:33.880 I've been thinking
00:40:34.360 about this
00:40:34.740 because I'm,
00:40:35.240 I'm actually going
00:40:36.540 to talk a little bit
00:40:37.300 about this
00:40:37.700 at our upcoming
00:40:38.580 conference.
00:40:40.060 But I think,
00:40:42.300 you know,
00:40:42.620 we have to admit
00:40:43.580 that there's a last man
00:40:46.460 within all of us.
00:40:48.460 You know,
00:40:49.100 we're,
00:40:49.680 we're,
00:40:50.280 we're,
00:40:50.720 we're consumed
00:40:51.840 with consuming
00:40:52.680 and making
00:40:53.440 and spending
00:40:54.120 and blah,
00:40:54.780 blah, blah.
00:40:55.660 We,
00:40:56.320 you know,
00:40:56.740 we're,
00:40:57.200 we think more
00:40:58.260 about Hollywood
00:41:00.040 movies
00:41:00.540 and the next
00:41:00.960 iPhone
00:41:01.440 than we probably
00:41:02.440 think about
00:41:03.120 our,
00:41:03.660 you know,
00:41:04.020 indigenous folkways
00:41:05.280 or tradition.
00:41:06.180 You know,
00:41:06.800 we should just
00:41:07.280 admit it.
00:41:08.240 But in a way
00:41:08.860 that,
00:41:09.540 that,
00:41:10.840 that homogenous
00:41:12.860 European man
00:41:13.920 that has been
00:41:14.460 created in America
00:41:15.240 and is being
00:41:15.880 created in Europe,
00:41:17.020 that might
00:41:18.300 ironically hold
00:41:19.460 a potential
00:41:20.000 for a European empire.
00:41:22.000 I mean,
00:41:22.680 Nietzsche wrote
00:41:23.480 about this
00:41:23.840 in Beyond Good
00:41:24.460 and Evil.
00:41:26.380 You know,
00:41:27.000 we're,
00:41:27.120 we're creating
00:41:27.820 this European,
00:41:28.840 we're creating
00:41:29.140 this good European
00:41:29.840 and he is
00:41:30.340 the last man.
00:41:31.180 But,
00:41:31.680 you know,
00:41:31.900 you need rulers
00:41:32.820 to rule the last men.
00:41:34.860 And so,
00:41:35.920 in a way,
00:41:36.520 this,
00:41:36.660 this,
00:41:37.020 this good European
00:41:38.200 might give birth
00:41:39.340 to the,
00:41:40.580 to a higher type
00:41:42.540 as well.
00:41:44.940 We've gone.
00:41:45.560 Yeah,
00:41:46.080 yeah,
00:41:46.300 I mean,
00:41:46.660 it sounds,
00:41:47.320 sounds good in theory
00:41:48.400 when you put it
00:41:49.000 like that,
00:41:49.520 but just imagine
00:41:50.980 how it works out
00:41:52.120 in practice.
00:41:53.160 Oh,
00:41:53.440 every,
00:41:53.900 everyone wants
00:41:54.600 to be an American.
00:41:55.480 Don't you know that?
00:41:56.720 We,
00:41:57.080 we just,
00:41:57.700 everyone just,
00:41:58.600 they,
00:41:58.900 everyone,
00:41:59.580 what is,
00:42:00.000 there was a great line
00:42:00.800 in Stanley Kubrick's
00:42:02.020 full metal jacket,
00:42:04.380 within every gook
00:42:05.640 I see a goddamn American.
00:42:08.220 And we've got,
00:42:09.660 it's a really classic line.
00:42:13.980 Just,
00:42:14.800 within every gook
00:42:16.020 I see a goddamn American
00:42:17.340 and we've just got
00:42:18.100 to come over here
00:42:18.980 and shoot him
00:42:20.160 until they recognize
00:42:22.680 the truth.
00:42:23.480 It was some kind
00:42:24.340 of horrible line
00:42:25.460 like that,
00:42:26.380 but that actually
00:42:27.380 kind of got
00:42:28.160 at this psychological truth.
00:42:30.320 And you,
00:42:30.780 you think that's,
00:42:31.440 that's true?
00:42:32.560 Well,
00:42:32.900 I,
00:42:33.140 again,
00:42:33.600 I think it's,
00:42:34.700 maybe it's kind
00:42:35.860 of horribly true.
00:42:39.160 No,
00:42:39.820 I,
00:42:40.180 look,
00:42:40.500 I,
00:42:40.760 I obviously,
00:42:41.580 I think America,
00:42:43.280 that kind of vision
00:42:44.540 is,
00:42:45.200 is pretty horrifying.
00:42:47.280 Yeah,
00:42:47.580 but it sounds
00:42:48.040 a little bit like,
00:42:48.800 yeah,
00:42:49.080 Freemasonry.
00:42:50.980 Maybe.
00:42:52.000 But at the same time,
00:42:54.000 I,
00:42:54.440 you can't deny
00:42:55.800 that there is
00:42:57.600 a,
00:42:58.680 a coming together
00:42:59.820 of Europeans.
00:43:01.060 And we are
00:43:02.580 so much more alike
00:43:03.940 than we are
00:43:04.460 different now.
00:43:05.120 I mean,
00:43:05.620 just the fact
00:43:06.300 that we're,
00:43:07.140 you know,
00:43:07.540 we're having
00:43:08.300 this conversation,
00:43:09.580 the fact that
00:43:10.040 we're having this,
00:43:10.900 you know,
00:43:11.220 in two weeks,
00:43:12.200 we're having a
00:43:12.760 English language
00:43:14.260 European conference.
00:43:16.440 And,
00:43:16.600 and actually,
00:43:17.420 it's,
00:43:17.680 you know,
00:43:18.800 sign up now,
00:43:19.980 tickets are still available.
00:43:21.320 But,
00:43:21.820 you know,
00:43:22.360 it,
00:43:22.820 just the fact
00:43:23.620 that that's happening,
00:43:24.400 I,
00:43:24.780 I think is expressive
00:43:26.120 of something,
00:43:27.120 that we're,
00:43:27.640 we're coming together.
00:43:29.180 And so,
00:43:29.980 I think,
00:43:30.560 you know,
00:43:30.780 the kind of,
00:43:31.860 you know,
00:43:32.100 within every gook
00:43:33.000 there's an American,
00:43:33.820 that's the kind of
00:43:34.420 horrifying version
00:43:35.860 of this reality.
00:43:37.560 But it's likely true.
00:43:39.260 You need a kind of
00:43:40.140 double identity,
00:43:41.660 though.
00:43:41.860 I don't think you can
00:43:42.460 just have this
00:43:43.080 one standard,
00:43:44.540 you know,
00:43:44.800 white identity.
00:43:45.620 You have to have
00:43:46.280 your own ethnic identity,
00:43:48.720 but then you also
00:43:49.520 have to have a kind of
00:43:50.320 greater white,
00:43:51.980 racial identity.
00:43:53.380 Yeah.
00:43:54.100 You know,
00:43:54.480 there's got to be
00:43:55.140 culture and there's
00:43:56.140 got to be
00:43:56.580 civilization.
00:43:58.160 Yeah.
00:43:58.580 And,
00:43:59.060 you know,
00:43:59.720 the,
00:44:00.320 what you're talking
00:44:01.880 about sort of
00:44:02.840 sounds like an
00:44:04.040 erasure of,
00:44:05.320 kind of ethnic
00:44:06.420 and cultural identity.
00:44:08.440 And then,
00:44:09.440 we sort of come together
00:44:10.740 around a shared
00:44:11.540 appreciation of the
00:44:12.620 iPhone and
00:44:13.420 the English language.
00:44:15.380 you know,
00:44:15.820 I mean,
00:44:16.120 so,
00:44:16.840 yeah,
00:44:18.300 I can see how that
00:44:19.400 sort of works
00:44:20.660 from an American
00:44:21.360 point of view
00:44:22.220 because,
00:44:22.640 you know,
00:44:22.760 America,
00:44:23.420 you know,
00:44:23.780 you have,
00:44:25.040 as you said,
00:44:25.660 you've kind of
00:44:25.900 erased ethnicity
00:44:26.960 to a very,
00:44:28.600 you know,
00:44:28.800 high degree.
00:44:29.680 Yeah.
00:44:30.460 But,
00:44:31.120 is that,
00:44:33.280 you know,
00:44:33.520 we have to wonder,
00:44:34.540 is that,
00:44:34.860 really healthy?
00:44:36.540 I mean,
00:44:36.840 maybe there has to
00:44:38.000 be a dialectic
00:44:39.020 because,
00:44:39.540 you know,
00:44:39.720 when I was,
00:44:40.840 it's funny,
00:44:41.740 I didn't expect
00:44:42.820 to do this,
00:44:43.580 but I'm kind of
00:44:44.020 getting into what
00:44:45.160 I'm going to talk
00:44:45.720 about at the
00:44:46.100 conference.
00:44:47.160 I think,
00:44:48.160 and again,
00:44:48.800 I don't like giving
00:44:49.780 a talk where I'm
00:44:50.620 like,
00:44:50.800 here's our new
00:44:51.360 policy agenda.
00:44:52.360 I like bringing
00:44:53.740 up dialectics
00:44:55.020 or really,
00:44:56.040 you know,
00:44:56.760 things where there's
00:44:57.440 a lot of tension
00:44:58.320 because that's when
00:44:59.120 things get interesting,
00:45:00.720 in my opinion.
00:45:01.240 But,
00:45:01.960 so,
00:45:02.600 I think there,
00:45:03.860 maybe there has to
00:45:04.640 be a kind of
00:45:05.160 dialectic or tension
00:45:06.320 and,
00:45:07.540 you know,
00:45:08.020 Americans,
00:45:09.580 you know,
00:45:09.820 because I was asking
00:45:10.460 myself while I was
00:45:11.220 writing this,
00:45:11.680 I was like,
00:45:12.080 what can we learn
00:45:13.680 from Europeans
00:45:14.260 and actually,
00:45:15.260 what can Europeans
00:45:15.920 learn from us
00:45:16.940 not to be,
00:45:18.420 not to be too
00:45:20.480 overconfident
00:45:21.380 or arrogant?
00:45:21.940 but I think
00:45:23.580 what Americans
00:45:24.680 desperately need
00:45:25.980 to learn from
00:45:26.560 Europeans
00:45:26.960 is that rootedness
00:45:28.320 and that culture
00:45:29.160 but maybe actually
00:45:31.020 Europeans need to
00:45:32.060 learn a certain
00:45:33.000 something from
00:45:33.700 Americans
00:45:34.160 and that is that
00:45:35.200 not to allow
00:45:36.620 ethnicity
00:45:37.180 to define,
00:45:38.520 to define
00:45:39.620 political
00:45:40.120 or,
00:45:40.920 you know,
00:45:41.520 gods forbid,
00:45:42.820 violent conflicts
00:45:44.280 and,
00:45:46.120 and we kind of,
00:45:47.220 maybe,
00:45:47.500 maybe we need
00:45:48.360 kind of that tension,
00:45:49.520 that tension
00:45:50.000 between being a
00:45:50.760 Scotsman
00:45:51.220 and being a
00:45:52.240 white man
00:45:52.680 because,
00:45:53.320 you know,
00:45:53.480 again,
00:45:54.040 vis-a-vis
00:45:54.440 the rest of the
00:45:55.020 world,
00:45:56.020 you know,
00:45:56.340 to a Chinaman,
00:45:57.800 you're not a
00:45:58.720 Scotsman,
00:45:59.780 you're a white
00:46:00.280 person.
00:46:01.700 They don't,
00:46:02.360 you know,
00:46:02.640 a Scotsman,
00:46:03.340 that's like a,
00:46:04.320 some funny
00:46:05.100 tie that you wear,
00:46:07.120 that's meaningless,
00:46:08.140 you're a white man
00:46:08.900 and,
00:46:10.140 so we have to
00:46:11.460 recognize that
00:46:12.180 I think,
00:46:12.900 and maybe there
00:46:13.400 could be a real
00:46:14.120 productive tension
00:46:15.120 between,
00:46:16.140 you know,
00:46:16.400 culture and
00:46:16.860 civilization as you
00:46:17.680 put it.
00:46:18.660 Yeah,
00:46:19.100 but you're always
00:46:19.640 going to have,
00:46:20.200 you're always
00:46:20.740 going to have
00:46:21.120 groups that
00:46:23.020 actually use
00:46:25.060 a dual identity
00:46:26.040 in such a system
00:46:27.220 that you're
00:46:27.880 proposing.
00:46:28.400 You always have
00:46:28.840 groups that will
00:46:29.900 use a dual identity.
00:46:32.380 On one level,
00:46:34.160 they'll be part of
00:46:34.940 this greater,
00:46:35.900 you know,
00:46:36.260 unified identity,
00:46:38.160 but they'll also
00:46:38.700 have their
00:46:39.640 sort of secret
00:46:40.900 identity,
00:46:41.720 you know.
00:46:42.680 Well,
00:46:42.860 whom could you be
00:46:43.520 referring to?
00:46:44.900 The Irish?
00:46:46.300 The Scots.
00:46:46.900 That's Scots.
00:46:48.520 And maybe one or
00:46:49.460 two other
00:46:49.840 ethnicities,
00:46:50.640 you know what I
00:46:50.940 mean?
00:46:51.180 So,
00:46:51.840 Scots have been
00:46:52.800 playing that game
00:46:53.400 for ages.
00:46:53.880 Yeah.
00:46:54.820 I mean,
00:46:55.100 you have the
00:46:55.460 Anglo-Scot,
00:46:56.480 you know,
00:46:56.660 you don't know
00:46:57.060 him from,
00:46:57.700 you know,
00:46:58.040 anybody else
00:46:58.920 down in the,
00:46:59.500 down at the,
00:47:00.300 the St.
00:47:01.240 James Club,
00:47:01.960 you know,
00:47:02.400 but,
00:47:02.920 you know,
00:47:03.720 you do have this
00:47:04.660 kind of dual
00:47:05.200 identity with,
00:47:06.180 with certain,
00:47:07.100 you know,
00:47:07.860 highly intelligent
00:47:08.840 races.
00:47:09.240 It is Scottish
00:47:10.900 Freemasonry,
00:47:11.680 after all,
00:47:12.340 isn't it?
00:47:13.220 Yeah,
00:47:13.520 it's basically,
00:47:14.480 that's where it
00:47:15.020 comes from,
00:47:16.340 Kilwinen,
00:47:17.660 the oldest
00:47:18.460 lodge.
00:47:21.040 Yeah,
00:47:21.580 well,
00:47:21.740 it has,
00:47:21.960 it has very,
00:47:22.620 it has a very
00:47:23.120 diverse history
00:47:23.980 and it's sort of,
00:47:25.280 you know,
00:47:25.780 there's a lot of
00:47:26.460 European currents
00:47:27.360 in it as well.
00:47:29.660 Yeah,
00:47:29.900 I was just reading
00:47:30.440 Jan Nassmann's
00:47:32.160 Religio Duplex
00:47:33.620 recently,
00:47:34.560 which goes into
00:47:35.540 a lot of the
00:47:36.000 detail of
00:47:36.660 Freemasonry
00:47:38.140 from a European
00:47:39.260 perspective
00:47:39.880 and how it
00:47:41.120 kind of feeds
00:47:41.640 into this
00:47:42.180 greater kind of
00:47:43.680 cosmopolitan
00:47:44.600 identity that
00:47:46.100 you're talking
00:47:46.540 about.
00:47:47.180 So that might be
00:47:48.360 something worth
00:47:49.100 looking at from
00:47:49.880 the perspective
00:47:50.860 of,
00:47:51.440 you know,
00:47:51.860 the Congress
00:47:52.560 that you're
00:47:53.040 organizing and
00:47:54.040 some ideas
00:47:55.220 you're floating.
00:47:55.940 So I sort of
00:47:56.360 recommend you have
00:47:57.020 a quick look at
00:47:57.600 that.
00:47:58.380 I definitely will.
00:47:59.040 I don't know that
00:47:59.500 book,
00:47:59.860 so I will look at
00:48:00.660 it.
00:48:01.660 But actually,
00:48:03.140 Colin,
00:48:03.660 why don't we,
00:48:04.420 I think we actually
00:48:05.440 got to a really
00:48:06.220 interesting place,
00:48:07.080 so why don't we,
00:48:07.740 why don't we just
00:48:08.560 put a bookmark in
00:48:09.460 this conversation
00:48:10.120 and let's pick it
00:48:12.860 up again because
00:48:13.800 this was a lot of
00:48:15.120 fun.
00:48:16.020 Okay,
00:48:16.460 yeah,
00:48:16.660 there should be a
00:48:17.280 lot of interesting
00:48:18.040 ramifications from
00:48:19.920 this campaign and
00:48:21.580 the moves made to
00:48:23.840 stem Scottish
00:48:24.620 independence.
00:48:25.840 Thank you.
00:48:26.920 Okay,
00:48:27.500 right,
00:48:27.780 thanks Richard.
00:48:28.220 Richard.
00:48:35.340 Thank you,
00:48:37.900 I…
00:48:40.540 I…
00:48:43.600 I…
00:48:45.260 I…
00:48:51.900 I…
00:49:03.140 Thank you.
00:49:33.140 Thank you.
00:50:03.140 Thank you.
00:50:33.140 Thank you.
00:51:03.140 Thank you.
00:51:33.140 Thank you.