RadixJournal - To Play the King

00:00:00.000 Well, Jack, Romain, welcome back.

00:00:03.120 Jack, you first.

00:00:04.900 How are things in the Pacific Northwest?

00:00:08.440 Lovely early spring.

00:00:10.820 Yes, that's good.

00:00:11.760 That's how it is here.

00:00:13.520 No skiing.

00:00:15.500 It's just hot.

00:00:17.860 Romain, how are things in Paris?

00:00:20.980 Well, first I have to say I'm ready for a new discussion

00:00:24.740 between Europeanized Americans and an Americanized European.

00:00:31.000 Things are good in Paris, but as I told you before,

00:00:34.640 we went on the proximity of the British Channel,

00:00:38.120 makes that you don't see the sun until June.

00:00:42.100 And it's never really cold in Paris,

00:00:44.760 but you don't see the sun and you don't even see the sky for months.

00:00:51.180 So I'm really yearning for the real spring

00:00:54.660 that should come around May and then June especially.

00:01:00.620 That sounds lovely.

00:01:04.060 Romantic.

00:01:05.300 Yes, romantic.

00:01:07.420 Well, let's talk about House of Cards.

00:01:10.740 How did you guys get into this program?

00:01:18.220 Jack, since you're...

00:01:20.300 Roman's more of a regular podcaster,

00:01:22.600 so I'll defer to our special guest.

00:01:25.120 But how did you get into this program, House of Cards?

00:01:29.800 Oh, I think a friend recommended it to me like about a year ago.

00:01:33.720 And I actually enjoy long series.

00:01:36.620 I don't watch regular television,

00:01:38.440 but I think I actually enjoy long series more than movies.

00:01:42.280 Yeah, I don't have a television now.

00:01:44.740 Yeah.

00:01:45.400 Yeah, I mean, I just...

00:01:46.740 I really enjoy these long, involved kind of operatic series

00:01:52.540 more than movies at this point

00:01:55.500 because I just think they're more interesting, more complicated,

00:01:58.240 and, you know, you can have these long storylines that unfold slowly.

00:02:02.860 So that's the only TV I watch is a TV like that.

00:02:06.140 No, that's good.

00:02:06.800 So it just was recommended as a good one,

00:02:08.980 and I got into it like you do with some of these shows

00:02:12.400 when they've been out for a while.

00:02:14.180 And I think Roman just told me on Facebook

00:02:17.400 that he watched the whole season of this House of Cards in, like, a day.

00:02:24.820 I think I watched the first two seasons in a week.

00:02:28.280 So, you know, just kind of get addicted to hitting on to the next one.

00:02:33.020 I know, and I've noticed with Netflix,

00:02:35.460 they keep starting almost the moment the credits start rolling of the last one.

00:02:40.060 You're kind of like, oh, yeah.

00:02:41.260 Yeah, no, I had a few 3 p.m. and later nights watching this stuff.

00:02:46.520 It's terrible, actually.

00:02:48.420 I feel kind of pathetic that I'm literally doing that,

00:02:51.860 but I guess I'm admitting it.

00:02:53.360 It's the first step towards overcoming.

00:02:55.280 It's your recovery.

00:02:58.380 So for a while, how did you get into it?

00:03:01.420 Actually, you know, sometimes and maybe oftentimes,

00:03:05.460 good things come out of bad ones.

00:03:08.120 So I don't want to recount my life,

00:03:11.100 but last year I was stuck.

00:03:12.800 Oh, do.

00:03:13.520 About the same time of year,

00:03:16.360 I was stuck with a shitty job,

00:03:18.720 which really was,

00:03:20.400 and you remember it because you were interviewed by them

00:03:23.480 after Budapest.

00:03:25.500 No, in Budapest, you know,

00:03:27.860 and it was a job that really left me with no energy

00:03:32.680 when I went back home.

00:03:34.840 So the only thing I could do,

00:03:36.540 I couldn't write or,

00:03:38.780 so I only could be passive,

00:03:41.440 and that was pathetic in a way too.

00:03:43.640 But so I,

00:03:46.300 and I didn't even have the patience to watch movies,

00:03:50.280 you know,

00:03:50.600 which lasts two hours or more.

00:03:53.620 So I watched many series during that time

00:03:57.420 to actually wait for the end of this shitty job,

00:04:01.260 which happened last summer,

00:04:03.640 and then I could leave again.

00:04:05.640 And during this period,

00:04:07.080 I watched,

00:04:08.140 actually I,

00:04:09.660 when I say that,

00:04:11.180 and I said the American is European

00:04:14.660 because these were all American

00:04:18.260 or sometimes British shows.

00:04:20.600 But,

00:04:20.960 so many shows,

00:04:23.660 including House of Cards,

00:04:25.060 but so Mad Men,

00:04:27.140 Breaking Bad,

00:04:28.260 Game of Thrones,

00:04:29.180 and others.

00:04:30.940 And House of Cards,

00:04:32.300 I was interested.

00:04:33.020 You're a big Archer fan,

00:04:33.160 aren't you?

00:04:34.340 Yeah.

00:04:34.740 Yeah.

00:04:35.120 Yeah.

00:04:35.620 It's,

00:04:36.040 it's not really serious.

00:04:37.860 It's more kind of,

00:04:39.060 you know,

00:04:41.340 amusement park.

00:04:42.740 I don't know how I can qualify it,

00:04:45.840 but luckily it only lasts 20 minutes

00:04:49.860 because otherwise it would really get nonsensical.

00:04:54.600 Yes.

00:04:55.160 But,

00:04:55.820 so I started watching it

00:04:59.880 just because I,

00:05:01.480 I read reviews of it

00:05:03.320 and I'm interested in politics,

00:05:06.160 not in the politician sense,

00:05:08.340 but more the reflection on power.

00:05:10.600 And I,

00:05:10.860 I knew I would find that in,

00:05:12.920 in that series.

00:05:13.720 And I have to say it's,

00:05:15.980 maybe it's mainstream and liberal,

00:05:18.280 but there's a reflection on the real nature of power

00:05:22.720 that you don't find in more,

00:05:25.800 you know,

00:05:27.300 dissident literature.

00:05:29.380 And so I,

00:05:31.260 I really,

00:05:32.500 I don't want to play the,

00:05:35.360 you know,

00:05:35.980 the old,

00:05:36.640 um,

00:05:37.740 um,

00:05:38.360 far right reviews that tries to find white nationalism in,

00:05:42.360 uh,

00:05:43.580 world Disney,

00:05:44.500 but,

00:05:45.240 uh,

00:05:45.760 I really found many themes that we talk about all the time

00:05:50.080 and that you could,

00:05:51.600 you could have broadcast to millions and millions of viewers.

00:05:54.580 So,

00:05:55.020 so it's an interesting show for us.

00:05:57.660 Yeah,

00:05:58.200 I,

00:05:58.500 I agree with everything you said.

00:06:00.580 Um,

00:06:01.280 I,

00:06:01.560 I think it does touch on interesting themes and,

00:06:04.420 and deeper themes.

00:06:05.260 And I think that's why it is a captivating show is that it,

00:06:09.800 you know,

00:06:10.020 you,

00:06:10.240 you can watch it just for the surface element,

00:06:12.100 but there's something else.

00:06:13.420 And,

00:06:13.620 and I think also there's,

00:06:15.300 it's not the West wing,

00:06:16.800 which,

00:06:17.780 um,

00:06:18.240 I think I,

00:06:19.420 gosh,

00:06:19.720 many years ago,

00:06:20.380 I,

00:06:20.600 I think I watched a couple episodes and I was like,

00:06:22.680 oh my God,

00:06:23.140 it's so stupid.

00:06:23.660 It's,

00:06:24.260 it's basically,

00:06:24.780 that's the kind of Aaron Sorkin,

00:06:27.040 you know,

00:06:27.380 liberal fantasy where all of these politicians are all good and earnest and

00:06:31.840 they're,

00:06:32.340 you know,

00:06:32.660 um,

00:06:33.080 they have the best intentions except for the bad ones and so on and so

00:06:35.960 So it was a comedy.

00:06:37.520 Right.

00:06:38.520 Well,

00:06:39.160 yeah,

00:06:39.920 but I,

00:06:40.440 I think in a way like house of cards is a kind of a comedy.

00:06:44.180 I,

00:06:44.580 I,

00:06:44.780 I think it's,

00:06:45.340 I,

00:06:45.600 it's particularly with the,

00:06:46.860 the BBC version,

00:06:48.000 uh,

00:06:48.700 which I,

00:06:49.400 I have to say,

00:06:50.020 I,

00:06:50.220 I really do love that one.

00:06:51.440 I think house of cards,

00:06:52.360 the Netflix,

00:06:53.020 Kevin Spacey is fascinating and worth watching.

00:06:55.940 I think the BBC one,

00:06:56.860 I really have a special affection for and that one becomes more satirical and

00:07:01.200 it becomes,

00:07:01.840 it becomes a kind of like a Renaissance,

00:07:04.020 um,

00:07:05.540 uh,

00:07:06.020 drama where there's murder and evil scheming and things like that.

00:07:09.900 But I,

00:07:10.480 I,

00:07:10.580 I like this farcical,

00:07:12.700 not farcical.

00:07:13.560 I,

00:07:13.720 I like the,

00:07:14.340 the stylized elements to house of cards almost so much more than the realistic earnest

00:07:21.000 elements.

00:07:21.780 I hate those elements actually.

00:07:23.380 I,

00:07:23.640 I like it when I like it when they're like throwing girls in front of train oncoming trains and,

00:07:31.080 you know,

00:07:31.580 coming up with bizarre schemes and playing,

00:07:34.500 you know,

00:07:34.640 doing it like a triple move and all that kind of stuff.

00:07:36.900 I think that stuff's really fun.

00:07:38.460 It reminds me of Shakespeare.

00:07:39.860 The BBC,

00:07:40.820 um,

00:07:41.080 version,

00:07:41.680 you know,

00:07:42.960 is definitely Shakespearean.

00:07:44.600 Anyway,

00:07:45.180 I,

00:07:45.520 I think I watched,

00:07:46.380 I think I was like a year late on watching the first season and then I just like watched

00:07:50.020 both seasons together.

00:07:51.840 And,

00:07:52.380 um,

00:07:53.020 it was,

00:07:53.320 I think it was like a December,

00:07:54.660 December of 2013 or something.

00:07:56.540 But,

00:07:56.940 um,

00:07:57.440 it,

00:07:57.580 it,

00:07:58.400 I,

00:07:58.740 I definitely liked it for all of these qualities.

00:08:00.540 The,

00:08:00.880 this kind of like,

00:08:01.640 um,

00:08:02.160 there's a depth behind it all.

00:08:03.880 And,

00:08:04.640 uh,

00:08:04.980 I,

00:08:05.300 I liked the,

00:08:07.000 you know,

00:08:07.320 there's,

00:08:07.560 there's something I appreciate when you look at politics as this,

00:08:11.700 as not as like getting the work done for the American people,

00:08:15.060 but as,

00:08:15.680 as scheming and power and,

00:08:17.840 and just the,

00:08:18.540 the quest for power and power in itself,

00:08:20.940 power,

00:08:21.740 power,

00:08:22.860 mere power in some levels.

00:08:24.280 Just the,

00:08:24.680 the,

00:08:25.480 I,

00:08:25.740 I thought that was a much,

00:08:26.900 a refreshingly,

00:08:28.000 you know,

00:08:28.340 cynical look at,

00:08:29.420 at Washington.

00:08:30.660 Um,

00:08:30.880 it actually also,

00:08:32.100 we don't need to dwell on this.

00:08:33.240 It,

00:08:33.360 it reminded me,

00:08:34.380 uh,

00:08:34.980 of my time in Washington.

00:08:36.540 It was actually pitch perfect in some ways.

00:08:39.200 Um,

00:08:39.840 in some of those early scenes where you walk into the Washington Herald office,

00:08:46.060 uh,

00:08:46.960 that really reminded me of,

00:08:49.140 uh,

00:08:49.460 my time there.

00:08:50.780 Some of those journalists that were all overweight and,

00:08:54.020 um,

00:08:54.620 uh,

00:08:55.440 kind of like,

00:08:55.980 you know,

00:08:56.200 their,

00:08:56.500 their belly was bulging out and they're wearing kind of like dull,

00:09:01.040 tasteless clothes.

00:09:02.080 And I was like,

00:09:02.980 Oh wow,

00:09:03.500 it's,

00:09:03.720 it's Jim Antle.

00:09:05.760 You know,

00:09:06.460 it reminded me of my colleagues.

00:09:09.140 Uh,

00:09:09.960 uh,

00:09:10.240 anyway,

00:09:13.240 um,

00:09:14.060 yeah.

00:09:15.160 Uh,

00:09:15.580 but yeah,

00:09:16.040 so I,

00:09:16.360 I thought it,

00:09:17.000 it did actually get,

00:09:18.240 it,

00:09:18.480 it had a kind of Washington element that,

00:09:20.460 uh,

00:09:21.100 uh,

00:09:21.340 that I liked.

00:09:21.840 But,

00:09:22.300 but anyway,

00:09:22.820 um,

00:09:23.340 let,

00:09:23.600 let's just do this.

00:09:24.720 Um,

00:09:25.000 let's go scene by scene three seasons.

00:09:27.800 Uh,

00:09:27.920 I think that might take a little long.

00:09:33.280 Uh,

00:09:33.480 that might take more than a day.

00:09:35.520 Let's just talk about some.

00:09:37.080 And then we publish it as counter currents.

00:09:42.320 No,

00:09:42.800 I'm not sure it'd be long enough,

00:09:43.980 um,

00:09:44.600 for that,

00:09:45.140 but yeah.

00:09:47.100 Um,

00:09:48.220 let's,

00:09:49.300 uh,

00:09:50.080 why don't we just talk about some themes?

00:09:53.540 Um,

00:09:54.300 where do you want to begin?

00:09:55.820 I,

00:09:55.980 I think actually let's talk about this.

00:09:58.440 Let's talk about Francis,

00:10:00.480 uh,

00:10:01.560 Underwood himself.

00:10:04.300 And,

00:10:04.760 um,

00:10:05.880 Jack,

00:10:06.260 why don't you pick up on this?

00:10:07.340 I mean,

00:10:07.460 when we were just emailing about doing this podcast,

00:10:11.180 um,

00:10:12.040 you mentioned that he,

00:10:12.860 he's a kind of,

00:10:14.420 he,

00:10:15.000 he's a kind of fantasy of the Southern boy ending up at the top of the pile.

00:10:20.560 Well,

00:10:21.020 that was just something that,

00:10:21.940 uh,

00:10:23.340 struck me immediately,

00:10:24.340 you know,

00:10:25.620 and as the show went on,

00:10:26.840 you know,

00:10:27.520 when you see what,

00:10:28.180 what's going on in,

00:10:29.220 in our society now,

00:10:30.520 uh,

00:10:32.060 I'm sorry,

00:10:32.680 in their society now,

00:10:34.120 um,

00:10:35.280 I,

00:10:36.280 I don't know that a Southern white man will ever be president again.

00:10:40.520 Right.

00:10:41.800 That doesn't seem likely.

00:10:43.860 And so,

00:10:44.820 I mean,

00:10:45.200 in a,

00:10:46.140 in a way it's kind of a fantasy of a time past.

00:10:49.740 Yeah.

00:10:50.220 And how politics might've been.

00:10:52.100 And,

00:10:52.300 you know,

00:10:52.880 it's,

00:10:53.060 I said something about it being Clinton-esque in many ways,

00:10:56.560 you know,

00:10:56.720 you have this power couple and,

00:10:58.160 and,

00:10:58.460 you know,

00:10:58.740 I have,

00:10:59.220 uh,

00:10:59.440 this kind of guy who's a little bit folksy and also kind of liberal at the same

00:11:04.080 time,

00:11:04.540 but not really liberal.

00:11:06.060 You can kind of tell.

00:11:07.440 No,

00:11:07.680 I,

00:11:07.780 I think it is true.

00:11:08.860 And,

00:11:09.060 and just his,

00:11:09.880 it's a kind of fantasy of like,

00:11:11.580 we can still do this.

00:11:13.220 You know,

00:11:13.940 like we,

00:11:14.640 we,

00:11:15.820 we can still win,

00:11:16.820 uh,

00:11:17.420 at this game.

00:11:18.320 Uh,

00:11:18.700 I,

00:11:19.040 I think in a way like,

00:11:20.440 uh,

00:11:20.980 Frank Underwood is also a white supremacist in the age of multiculturalism.

00:11:27.980 And,

00:11:28.580 um,

00:11:29.280 I mean,

00:11:29.560 I say that with a tongue in cheek in a way,

00:11:31.680 but I mean,

00:11:32.220 what he,

00:11:33.480 what he represents is that like Southern boy made good.

00:11:38.640 And he actually is able to win at the other people's game.

00:11:43.480 You know,

00:11:44.020 I mean,

00:11:44.360 I,

00:11:44.600 I,

00:11:44.760 I think it's,

00:11:45.300 it's one of the first scenes of season one where he's talking to the camera.

00:11:50.340 And I think he ends that monologue with saying,

00:11:52.620 you know,

00:11:52.900 welcome to Washington.

00:11:54.100 But before that,

00:11:55.620 he talks about,

00:11:56.160 he,

00:11:56.620 he placed,

00:11:57.520 the president's chief of staff.

00:12:00.120 Um,

00:12:00.560 and,

00:12:01.240 uh,

00:12:01.700 and he,

00:12:02.220 he talks to the camera.

00:12:03.000 He's like,

00:12:03.260 you know,

00:12:03.680 a woman check Latina check,

00:12:06.920 you know,

00:12:07.260 she's from the South or Midwest check.

00:12:09.640 And he's basically checking off all these multicultural things.

00:12:13.280 And so he's kind of like playing multiculturalism.

00:12:16.820 You know,

00:12:16.980 he,

00:12:17.360 he wants someone who is,

00:12:19.340 um,

00:12:20.340 uh,

00:12:20.760 loyal to him or at the very least that he thinks that he can use.

00:12:24.580 And he's using the multiculti,

00:12:27.360 a checklist to get that.

00:12:29.360 And so he's,

00:12:30.680 he's obviously not a man with ideals,

00:12:32.540 but with the released,

00:12:34.200 he,

00:12:34.580 he is the one he he's,

00:12:35.820 he's,

00:12:36.120 he's aware of his surroundings and he kind of uses them,

00:12:38.940 um,

00:12:39.780 for his own gain.

00:12:40.800 So I,

00:12:41.540 I think it is like,

00:12:42.480 he,

00:12:42.600 he is that fantasy of,

00:12:44.160 we can actually win at this.

00:12:46.440 Um,

00:12:46.920 you know,

00:12:47.440 which is in a way,

00:12:48.120 a kind of like trumped up version of the Republican fantasy of like,

00:12:52.340 wow,

00:12:52.800 we'll don't worry.

00:12:53.980 We don't have to change anything about ourselves.

00:12:56.540 There'll be no,

00:12:57.500 uh,

00:12:57.980 implications to mass immigration.

00:13:00.040 We'll just win over the Hispanics through Christianity and family values or something,

00:13:04.380 you know,

00:13:04.860 it's,

00:13:05.140 it's that kind of vision of like,

00:13:06.700 you know,

00:13:07.240 Oh,

00:13:07.440 we can do this.

00:13:08.140 We can win.

00:13:09.560 Get,

00:13:10.040 get it,

00:13:10.340 get a black man on the ticket.

00:13:11.720 Check.

00:13:12.360 Yeah.

00:13:12.980 That's,

00:13:13.500 that's,

00:13:14.820 I mean,

00:13:15.040 that's,

00:13:15.340 that's what politics is today.

00:13:16.620 And I think that I think you're,

00:13:19.000 you're right in saying it's a,

00:13:20.000 it's a,

00:13:20.560 in many ways,

00:13:21.080 a progressive fantasy in the sense of,

00:13:23.200 uh,

00:13:23.760 you know,

00:13:23.900 there's so many progressives,

00:13:24.920 uh,

00:13:25.340 I think who I've dealt with who are kind of cynical about multiculturalism and just deal with it as a reality of what,

00:13:33.140 what you would need if you were assembling,

00:13:34.600 say like a school,

00:13:36.600 you know,

00:13:36.800 like a,

00:13:37.300 you know,

00:13:37.500 you want to have,

00:13:38.280 you know,

00:13:38.420 a teacher who's Latina and a teacher who this,

00:13:40.520 you know,

00:13:40.760 at all levels of the system,

00:13:42.960 there are managers and so forth making those kinds of decisions.

00:13:46.620 Yeah.

00:13:47.580 And they're probably more bald and frank about it than we might actually imagine.

00:13:53.040 Yeah.

00:13:54.300 You know,

00:13:55.760 I mean,

00:13:56.220 I mean,

00:13:56.360 you know that someone sat down,

00:13:57.660 people are sitting down in a meeting somewhere right now saying,

00:14:00.360 oh,

00:14:01.040 well,

00:14:01.620 well,

00:14:01.920 and that candidate's black.

00:14:02.880 So that's great.

00:14:03.840 Yeah.

00:14:04.440 You know,

00:14:04.640 we need one of those,

00:14:05.880 you know,

00:14:06.500 right.

00:14:07.900 I mean,

00:14:08.160 it's basically the kind of racism that is implicit within multiculturalism.

00:14:12.920 Like that,

00:14:13.760 that's kind of always there.

00:14:15.300 Or she'll protect us from lawsuits and,

00:14:17.760 and she'll protect us from this and that.

00:14:21.020 Yeah.

00:14:21.580 Yeah.

00:14:24.120 Roman,

00:14:24.720 do you want to chime in on this topic?

00:14:27.660 Yeah.

00:14:28.780 You are talking about the first scene because it's,

00:14:31.500 it's the very first scene of the first episode where he checks all the multicultural,

00:14:36.400 you know,

00:14:38.020 aspects of the president,

00:14:40.200 chief of staff.

00:14:40.940 But,

00:14:41.440 you know,

00:14:43.200 I,

00:14:43.400 I don't know if it was only during the first episode or during the first ones,

00:14:49.620 but,

00:14:50.000 you know,

00:14:51.820 it's not clear at the beginning if he's a Democrat or Republican.

00:14:56.480 Yeah.

00:14:56.660 We only,

00:14:57.540 we only learned that later.

00:14:59.340 And I wasn't sure actually,

00:15:01.280 because the president at first,

00:15:03.300 Garrett Walker,

00:15:04.260 who is,

00:15:05.220 as a former governor of Colorado,

00:15:07.700 which I think is a very British state.

00:15:11.160 I mean,

00:15:11.800 before,

00:15:12.320 uh,

00:15:14.160 as Hispanic,

00:15:15.180 uh,

00:15:15.380 swamping,

00:15:15.840 uh,

00:15:17.480 you know,

00:15:17.800 and the vice president is very waspy too.

00:15:20.560 So it's not,

00:15:22.040 as Jack said,

00:15:23.480 it's not really credible.

00:15:24.840 It could be set in the nineties,

00:15:27.440 but not really,

00:15:28.140 um,

00:15:29.200 in the second decade of the 21st century.

00:15:31.520 But,

00:15:32.800 you know,

00:15:33.240 I was thinking it was a kind of,

00:15:35.260 um,

00:15:36.300 there was a kind of Republican revenge in 2010 or,

00:15:41.540 uh,

00:15:42.000 and then in 2012.

00:15:43.360 And that's why,

00:15:45.000 uh,

00:15:46.080 the white house was white again,

00:15:48.320 if I may.

00:15:49.340 But now we,

00:15:50.780 we soon learned that there are Democrats and it's kind of surprising.

00:15:55.660 And,

00:15:56.040 uh,

00:15:57.140 again,

00:15:57.440 I don't want to interpret or over interpret the series,

00:16:01.340 but it's telling that they took,

00:16:03.900 you know,

00:16:04.540 a liberal,

00:16:05.080 um,

00:16:07.100 administration and,

00:16:08.500 you know,

00:16:09.700 left wing,

00:16:10.840 at least officially.

00:16:12.660 And,

00:16:13.320 you know,

00:16:14.340 uh,

00:16:14.800 say that these people were not as nice as,

00:16:17.800 uh,

00:16:18.680 they could pretend,

00:16:19.740 which is PC in a way,

00:16:21.600 because it,

00:16:22.320 it means that they don't live up to their high and noble ideals.

00:16:26.760 But then,

00:16:27.980 then you start watching the series and,

00:16:31.340 and you start liking as a guy with cynical and playing,

00:16:36.160 uh,

00:16:36.820 all this multi-culti establishment against each other.

00:16:40.620 And you start liking him,

00:16:43.260 especially because,

00:16:44.740 uh,

00:16:45.720 so he understood the game and unlike it's pompous,

00:16:50.560 but I would say people like us,

00:16:52.380 he doesn't want to criticize it openly.

00:16:56.060 Right.

00:16:56.180 But then,

00:16:57.060 you know,

00:16:57.740 if,

00:16:57.980 if Francis Underwood was on the podcast,

00:17:01.560 he would agree with everything we're saying,

00:17:03.940 you know,

00:17:04.820 about the fact that multiculturalism is about,

00:17:08.560 you know,

00:17:09.180 hypocrisy and that eventually you need managers who have to,

00:17:15.220 you know,

00:17:15.980 uh,

00:17:16.580 play all this token minorities against each other.

00:17:20.860 And,

00:17:21.280 um,

00:17:23.100 so,

00:17:24.280 Underwood is really a complex figure for that.

00:17:29.240 Yeah.

00:17:30.240 I,

00:17:30.800 I think,

00:17:31.540 uh,

00:17:31.740 I think you're getting a lot of interesting things.

00:17:33.880 I mean,

00:17:34.540 if you look at the BBC version,

00:17:36.640 uh,

00:17:37.200 and,

00:17:37.460 and it was,

00:17:37.860 it was actually based on a novel,

00:17:39.500 um,

00:17:40.140 by a man named Dobbs,

00:17:41.140 I believe.

00:17:41.840 And,

00:17:42.540 uh,

00:17:42.720 anyway,

00:17:43.160 it,

00:17:43.520 it was,

00:17:44.200 it came out in 1991 and it was,

00:17:46.840 you know,

00:17:47.380 immediately following on Thatcher and I guess Thatcher's downfall as well.

00:17:52.360 So it was,

00:17:53.320 it was a kind of,

00:17:54.680 you know,

00:17:55.200 it,

00:17:55.520 it was,

00:17:55.900 it was produced by the BBC,

00:17:57.080 which is,

00:17:57.740 you know,

00:17:57.880 well known for being a,

00:17:59.180 uh,

00:17:59.500 you know,

00:17:59.760 hyper liberal,

00:18:00.380 uh,

00:18:01.140 organization.

00:18:01.480 So in a way it was their like fan fantasy slash nightmare of the Thatcher era.

00:18:09.180 And,

00:18:09.960 you know,

00:18:10.220 this,

00:18:10.500 and Ian Richardson who plays,

00:18:12.180 uh,

00:18:12.360 brilliantly plays,

00:18:13.420 um,

00:18:14.060 uh,

00:18:14.440 Francis Urquhart is,

00:18:16.200 you know,

00:18:16.320 he's old,

00:18:17.300 he's,

00:18:17.820 he's from a privileged background.

00:18:19.640 He's not like Frank Underwood who's a country boy.

00:18:22.180 He's,

00:18:22.840 you know,

00:18:23.080 he's from privilege.

00:18:24.540 Um,

00:18:25.080 and he,

00:18:26.160 uh,

00:18:26.340 it was this kind of vision of these just horrible conservative Tories and what they're really like.

00:18:31.680 And they're all,

00:18:32.280 you know,

00:18:32.500 having sex with mistresses and trying to slime people.

00:18:36.460 You know,

00:18:36.660 it was,

00:18:37.160 it was that kind of fantasy.

00:18:38.080 But I guess the odd thing about it is that you end up sympathizing with Francis to such a degree.

00:18:44.960 And,

00:18:45.020 and a lot,

00:18:45.700 so much of that is because he's looking,

00:18:47.140 you know,

00:18:47.260 he's looking at the camera,

00:18:48.500 breaking the fourth wall and kind of letting you in on his schemes.

00:18:52.800 Um,

00:18:53.200 but you,

00:18:53.860 but even beyond that,

00:18:55.000 you just,

00:18:55.480 you,

00:18:55.720 it's hard not to like him or at least admire him.

00:18:58.840 And,

00:18:59.440 uh,

00:18:59.940 and so the fantasy kind of like is flipped on its end.

00:19:02.920 Like it,

00:19:03.360 it,

00:19:03.840 the BBC,

00:19:04.780 you know,

00:19:05.060 in a weird way,

00:19:05.940 like even a conservative Tory can watch this and kind of get into it.

00:19:09.440 And I think that's also with Francis Underwood.

00:19:11.540 I mean,

00:19:11.720 he,

00:19:12.060 he's a good liberal at some level,

00:19:14.320 but you,

00:19:15.880 in a way people,

00:19:16.980 I think people watching it,

00:19:19.400 including lots of liberals watching it,

00:19:21.300 they,

00:19:21.520 they like him precisely because he's not really a liberal.

00:19:25.340 You know,

00:19:25.880 he has some Southern values and those,

00:19:28.620 and those aren't,

00:19:29.820 you know,

00:19:30.120 like,

00:19:30.480 uh,

00:19:31.380 uh,

00:19:31.640 redneck values.

00:19:32.620 He kind of,

00:19:32.900 he kind of has,

00:19:33.560 you know,

00:19:33.720 the,

00:19:33.880 some taste and he likes the finer things in life.

00:19:36.680 And he went to a military school and,

00:19:39.360 and blah,

00:19:39.900 blah,

00:19:40.000 blah.

00:19:40.180 So it's,

00:19:40.540 it's a kind of like having it both ways of he's this Southern conservative who,

00:19:45.700 but who's also kind of a good liberal and plays,

00:19:47.880 plays along with it.

00:19:49.300 Um,

00:19:49.680 it was,

00:19:50.100 I was also thinking like,

00:19:51.540 and this is maybe something to criticize about the series,

00:19:53.860 the series is that one thing that you see with Hollywood,

00:19:56.980 whenever they try to add depth to a character,

00:19:59.100 they they'll do something like,

00:20:01.680 Oh,

00:20:01.820 he was abused as a child or whatever.

00:20:04.240 And so with Frank,

00:20:05.580 it's like,

00:20:05.960 Oh,

00:20:06.280 he's,

00:20:06.960 he's kind,

00:20:07.640 he's kind of sort of secretly gay,

00:20:09.900 um,

00:20:11.020 as a kind of depth to him.

00:20:13.200 But I always,

00:20:14.420 I felt that that,

00:20:16.120 I don't know.

00:20:16.600 I,

00:20:16.740 I felt all of those things were kind of implausible and not really

00:20:20.080 believable.

00:20:20.880 And they didn't really,

00:20:22.140 I don't know.

00:20:22.620 I thought it was very,

00:20:23.360 it seemed tacked on to his character.

00:20:27.140 Yeah,

00:20:27.260 I'd agree.

00:20:27.800 I don't,

00:20:28.080 it seemed,

00:20:29.100 you know,

00:20:29.760 it was,

00:20:30.080 it was,

00:20:30.520 you know,

00:20:31.360 uh,

00:20:31.820 scandalous and titillating,

00:20:33.420 but which is,

00:20:34.080 you know,

00:20:34.260 what TV shows are about.

00:20:35.820 But,

00:20:36.220 uh,

00:20:36.480 I don't think that it was really realistic for that particular

00:20:40.120 character.

00:20:40.820 Yeah.

00:20:41.300 And it,

00:20:41.660 again,

00:20:42.140 it's like,

00:20:42.820 you know,

00:20:43.480 you know,

00:20:44.780 with,

00:20:45.020 with like a great character,

00:20:46.440 he's debt,

00:20:47.100 he's deep because of like his mind and the way he does things.

00:20:51.240 But I,

00:20:51.560 I think it's all,

00:20:52.140 it's very shallow to be like,

00:20:53.380 you're deep because you happen to be abused as a child or you're

00:20:56.840 secretly gay.

00:20:57.540 Like it's,

00:20:58.140 it's a kind of,

00:20:59.260 I don't know.

00:21:00.040 It struck me as,

00:21:00.760 is a little bit stupid to be honest.

00:21:02.820 Yeah.

00:21:03.120 I mean,

00:21:03.400 he had enough,

00:21:03.880 he has enough desperation that comes from being,

00:21:05.900 uh,

00:21:07.100 poor.

00:21:07.960 Yeah.

00:21:08.280 You know,

00:21:08.960 that usually being,

00:21:10.080 being poor and having a father who's a loser and whatever,

00:21:12.780 the guys who become ambitious because of that tend to be extremely,

00:21:16.940 extremely driven.

00:21:17.760 So that all made sense.

00:21:18.960 Yeah.

00:21:20.060 Yeah.

00:21:20.500 And he is,

00:21:21.340 there,

00:21:21.800 there is a lot to him.

00:21:22.820 Like,

00:21:23.040 I remember he was giving this speech for the,

00:21:26.820 there was some kind of a one-off episode where he goes down to South

00:21:30.960 Carolina to clear up some,

00:21:32.820 you know,

00:21:33.260 peach pit,

00:21:34.440 uh,

00:21:34.740 or peach,

00:21:35.420 uh,

00:21:36.340 what was a water tower thing?

00:21:38.740 Yeah.

00:21:38.900 It was kind of like one of the sillier moments,

00:21:41.320 but,

00:21:41.880 but,

00:21:42.360 Oh yeah.

00:21:43.160 Because a girl was,

00:21:44.820 uh,

00:21:46.500 uh,

00:21:46.800 texting while driving and kill herself.

00:21:49.840 Something like that.

00:21:51.000 Right.

00:21:51.320 The,

00:21:51.700 the peach water tower looks like a gigantic ass and or dick.

00:21:57.060 And,

00:21:57.160 uh,

00:21:57.800 so,

00:21:58.400 right.

00:22:00.680 And so,

00:22:01.580 uh,

00:22:02.180 she,

00:22:02.580 she was texting like that looks like a dot,

00:22:04.900 dot,

00:22:05.160 dot.

00:22:05.520 And then she ran off the road.

00:22:06.960 Anyway,

00:22:07.520 it's a kind of morbid comical thing,

00:22:09.740 but,

00:22:09.960 uh,

00:22:11.000 he was,

00:22:12.260 uh,

00:22:12.360 he was giving,

00:22:13.440 he,

00:22:13.680 he gave a funeral oration and he would just say these things that were like kind of shocking.

00:22:19.340 Um,

00:22:19.740 and it would be like,

00:22:20.660 I hate you,

00:22:21.740 God.

00:22:22.580 He goes,

00:22:23.440 Oh,

00:22:23.740 come on.

00:22:24.120 We've all thought it.

00:22:25.080 And,

00:22:25.280 and he obviously tied a Christian,

00:22:27.540 a Southern Christian bow around the whole thing.

00:22:29.560 But just the fact that he says things like this gives you like,

00:22:33.120 that's in a way a real depth.

00:22:34.360 Like that gives you a glimpse into some kind of terrifying human being.

00:22:39.900 Actually,

00:22:40.340 I don't want to spoil this.

00:22:42.340 So it's not too much.

00:22:43.520 I should say this.

00:22:45.040 Uh,

00:22:45.280 if you were listening to this podcast and you've not watched it,

00:22:48.520 I mean,

00:22:48.880 please,

00:22:49.740 uh,

00:22:50.560 don't blame us for spoiling.

00:22:53.380 Okay.

00:22:53.960 But it's not true.

00:22:56.140 It's,

00:22:56.800 it's not true about the plot,

00:22:59.240 but it's a very,

00:23:00.400 uh,

00:23:01.660 both,

00:23:02.480 uh,

00:23:03.280 deep and comical scene in,

00:23:06.400 uh,

00:23:06.620 in the third season is,

00:23:08.520 uh,

00:23:08.680 talking with a priest.

00:23:10.260 And then,

00:23:10.820 uh,

00:23:12.440 uh,

00:23:12.880 he asks to be left alone in the church and he goes to,

00:23:17.400 to Christ and the,

00:23:19.060 you know,

00:23:19.820 cross.

00:23:20.680 And,

00:23:20.760 and he says,

00:23:22.320 love,

00:23:23.500 is that what you're selling?

00:23:25.780 Well,

00:23:26.460 I'm not buying.

00:23:27.500 And then he spits up on Jesus Christ.

00:23:30.460 And of course,

00:23:32.140 you know,

00:23:32.740 uh,

00:23:33.400 from a liberal point of view,

00:23:34.960 it's maybe a mix of,

00:23:37.360 uh,

00:23:38.480 sacrilegious,

00:23:39.400 uh,

00:23:40.540 way of saying that,

00:23:42.080 you know,

00:23:43.100 uh,

00:23:43.540 religion from politicians is funny,

00:23:46.220 but when you look at the scene and,

00:23:48.940 you know,

00:23:50.160 the religion of love,

00:23:51.720 it's so cheesy when you,

00:23:54.060 maybe not at first,

00:23:55.460 maybe not,

00:23:56.180 uh,

00:23:56.860 in the middle ages,

00:23:57.880 but today,

00:23:58.660 when you look at the Pope as a current Pope,

00:24:02.220 uh,

00:24:02.900 Christianity is really cheesy.

00:24:04.520 And,

00:24:05.120 and it's,

00:24:06.400 it's good to have,

00:24:07.460 um,

00:24:08.600 an important character and who happens to be the president of the president of the U S saying,

00:24:15.400 I'm not buying it.

00:24:16.740 It's,

00:24:17.340 uh,

00:24:17.760 it was really a great scene of the third season.

00:24:21.060 Yeah.

00:24:21.660 Yeah.

00:24:21.820 I mean,

00:24:22.040 it's,

00:24:22.320 he,

00:24:22.600 he has a kind of devilish and maybe even almost like right wing critique of Christianity.

00:24:28.800 Um,

00:24:29.380 yeah,

00:24:29.600 Nietzschean.

00:24:30.540 Yeah.

00:24:30.960 I mean,

00:24:31.180 and obviously it,

00:24:31.900 it,

00:24:32.120 it is kind of shallow because it's all about like,

00:24:34.420 you know,

00:24:34.820 Oh,

00:24:35.100 I think he says,

00:24:35.960 you know,

00:24:36.220 we're just,

00:24:36.680 he says at one point,

00:24:37.480 like we're,

00:24:38.640 it was almost like,

00:24:39.340 uh,

00:24:39.600 the famous Matthew Arnold poem,

00:24:41.360 Dover beach,

00:24:42.120 you know,

00:24:42.360 we're just people fighting each other.

00:24:44.460 Like he,

00:24:44.920 he says some kind of,

00:24:46.340 you know,

00:24:46.640 bleak,

00:24:47.600 atheistic type sentiment.

00:24:49.560 Um,

00:24:50.540 but nevertheless,

00:24:52.320 I,

00:24:52.560 I,

00:24:52.680 I think,

00:24:53.120 you know,

00:24:53.440 again,

00:24:53.760 that,

00:24:54.160 and,

00:24:54.240 and that is his funeral oration where he says,

00:24:56.420 I hate God.

00:24:57.640 They're all,

00:24:58.100 they're just these glimpses of a deep person who,

00:25:01.280 who has psychological and philosophical depth.

00:25:04.560 And I,

00:25:05.340 I think that's what's,

00:25:06.960 you know,

00:25:07.260 interesting.

00:25:08.580 Um,

00:25:09.340 anyway,

00:25:09.940 why don't we,

00:25:10.520 why don't we,

00:25:10.880 why don't we talk a little bit about Claire?

00:25:13.420 Um,

00:25:14.180 Jack,

00:25:14.740 why don't you start off by,

00:25:16.240 by talking about his,

00:25:17.800 his wife,

00:25:18.760 whom he,

00:25:20.100 uh,

00:25:20.800 who he,

00:25:21.420 whom he,

00:25:21.900 with whom he conspires.

00:25:24.780 Oh,

00:25:25.340 well,

00:25:25.680 I really enjoyed actually Claire Underwood's character,

00:25:28.860 uh,

00:25:29.600 in,

00:25:29.860 in terms of,

00:25:30.700 uh,

00:25:31.300 I think she's a,

00:25:32.380 in many ways until in the third,

00:25:34.980 third season where she becomes a little bit more modern and feminist and,

00:25:40.380 and also kind of emotional and,

00:25:43.480 uh,

00:25:44.260 and,

00:25:44.620 and,

00:25:44.800 and unpredictable.

00:25:45.740 I mean,

00:25:46.100 she's,

00:25:46.380 she's really a rock,

00:25:47.340 uh,

00:25:48.180 for the first two seasons.

00:25:49.860 And,

00:25:50.380 uh,

00:25:50.540 she's,

00:25:50.960 you know,

00:25:52.120 uh,

00:25:53.140 you know,

00:25:53.440 complicit in her husband's ambition.

00:25:56.580 Yeah.

00:25:57.080 And,

00:25:57.400 uh,

00:25:57.580 she's a supporting,

00:25:58.680 she's a supporting wife in the way that,

00:26:01.560 you know,

00:26:02.700 today,

00:26:03.660 you know,

00:26:03.960 they had,

00:26:04.540 they talk about a lot about partnerships of equals and that,

00:26:07.800 that becomes challenged in the third season.

00:26:09.620 But,

00:26:10.080 uh,

00:26:10.980 you know,

00:26:11.360 through most of the season,

00:26:13.160 there's this moment,

00:26:14.320 especially in the third season,

00:26:15.460 um,

00:26:16.460 there's a moment where they're talking on the phone and she says,

00:26:21.400 if you need to talk,

00:26:24.160 we can talk.

00:26:25.560 But if you're going to luxuriate and self doubt,

00:26:28.700 I won't entertain that.

00:26:31.620 And,

00:26:32.080 you know,

00:26:32.480 I just think that's a fantastic thing for a woman to say to a man,

00:26:35.400 uh,

00:26:36.500 who's trying to be better.

00:26:38.200 You know,

00:26:38.620 there's,

00:26:38.940 we get so many messages from women today that are,

00:26:41.560 have to do with,

00:26:42.600 you know,

00:26:43.060 well,

00:26:43.420 you know,

00:26:43.620 she get in touch with her feelings more.

00:26:45.500 We should really talk more.

00:26:46.760 You should,

00:26:47.100 you should,

00:26:47.420 you should cry more.

00:26:48.460 I want to hear your feelings.

00:26:50.060 And,

00:26:50.480 uh,

00:26:50.720 you know,

00:26:51.020 like,

00:26:51.280 I mean,

00:26:51.640 she's a woman who is pushing a man to be great.

00:26:54.380 Yeah.

00:26:55.160 And,

00:26:55.600 uh,

00:26:55.740 that's what I really liked about her character.

00:26:57.140 Very much like the,

00:26:58.040 uh,

00:26:58.820 the,

00:26:59.160 uh,

00:26:59.840 queen go go in,

00:27:02.100 uh,

00:27:02.260 the movie 300,

00:27:03.160 you know,

00:27:03.700 this kind of like,

00:27:04.400 you know,

00:27:04.660 come back.

00:27:05.020 she's very much,

00:27:05.920 you know,

00:27:06.240 come back,

00:27:06.880 uh,

00:27:07.540 you know,

00:27:08.420 with your shield or on it.

00:27:10.280 Uh,

00:27:10.780 she,

00:27:11.060 you know,

00:27:11.540 she's definitely go out and do it and,

00:27:13.980 you know,

00:27:14.080 I'll support you however I can.

00:27:16.840 Uh,

00:27:17.280 but you know,

00:27:17.940 you're here to be great and I can't help you weaken yourself.

00:27:22.400 Yeah.

00:27:22.800 She's a Donovanian hero.

00:27:25.160 Yeah.

00:27:25.560 Yeah.

00:27:25.840 Yeah.

00:27:26.400 Strangely enough.

00:27:27.360 Yeah.

00:27:27.680 She,

00:27:27.800 she's a good woman until she screws it up in the end.

00:27:31.260 Right.

00:27:31.520 Right.

00:27:31.800 No,

00:27:31.960 I,

00:27:32.300 yeah,

00:27:32.740 no,

00:27:32.940 I think in the third season,

00:27:34.120 she kind of falls off,

00:27:35.740 uh,

00:27:36.560 the,

00:27:36.720 the,

00:27:37.100 the path,

00:27:37.860 but no,

00:27:38.220 I,

00:27:38.420 I agree.

00:27:39.080 I think she's a kind of Lady Macbeth figure and,

00:27:43.000 but I,

00:27:43.800 but in a way that,

00:27:45.200 and,

00:27:45.340 and obviously Lady Macbeth is,

00:27:46.740 is kind of a devilish villain,

00:27:48.360 but,

00:27:49.240 but in,

00:27:49.760 in a kind of almost good way where she doesn't say like,

00:27:52.540 you need to spend more time with me.

00:27:54.820 Uh,

00:27:55.220 she's instead,

00:27:56.260 you know,

00:27:56.740 like you need to achieve your ambition fully and you like,

00:28:00.300 you know,

00:28:00.720 you're,

00:28:01.220 you're getting soft on me.

00:28:03.260 And I,

00:28:04.000 I think there is something,

00:28:05.280 yeah,

00:28:05.560 I,

00:28:05.820 I agree.

00:28:06.420 I,

00:28:06.680 I think there is something powerful and it's a kind of,

00:28:09.540 uh,

00:28:09.920 it's,

00:28:10.540 it's something extremely different than,

00:28:12.740 uh,

00:28:13.620 than contemporary feminism,

00:28:16.080 which wants,

00:28:16.840 you know,

00:28:17.520 female autonomy and,

00:28:18.900 and disconnect.

00:28:20.260 It,

00:28:20.560 it really is like a,

00:28:21.940 a true marriage and,

00:28:23.840 and,

00:28:24.140 and,

00:28:24.260 and a way,

00:28:24.880 in a weird way,

00:28:25.520 a loving one.

00:28:26.700 Um,

00:28:27.160 but that,

00:28:27.700 you know,

00:28:27.880 where both parties are working together and they're pooling their resources and,

00:28:32.080 and,

00:28:33.100 uh,

00:28:33.500 and things like that.

00:28:34.320 I,

00:28:34.460 I agree.

00:28:35.020 It is a kind of image of something of a higher.

00:28:37.460 She pushes her husband and rises with him.

00:28:39.300 I mean,

00:28:39.500 she's,

00:28:39.900 the idea of a first lady is actually really well fleshed out in her,

00:28:44.360 you know?

00:28:45.640 Yeah.

00:28:46.040 Yeah.

00:28:46.260 I agree.

00:28:47.060 Um,

00:28:47.900 unfortunately there is this,

00:28:49.880 uh,

00:28:50.040 in the third season,

00:28:50.880 they have this Vladimir Putin stand in,

00:28:53.120 and this,

00:28:54.080 uh,

00:28:54.600 feminine,

00:28:55.100 uh,

00:28:56.180 pussy riot.

00:28:57.020 Are there literally called pussy riot,

00:28:58.600 aren't they?

00:28:59.240 I think so.

00:28:59.860 They are the pussy riot.

00:29:01.220 Yeah.

00:29:01.580 Okay.

00:29:01.940 So they just,

00:29:02.740 they went beyond,

00:29:04.440 uh,

00:29:05.780 and it's a very unlikely scene because they are invited at the same table of,

00:29:11.120 uh,

00:29:11.540 the Putin like presidents.

00:29:13.320 Right.

00:29:13.840 Which doesn't really make sense.

00:29:15.480 Yes.

00:29:16.560 No,

00:29:17.060 that,

00:29:17.400 that is very unlikely,

00:29:18.560 but even here,

00:29:19.960 like I,

00:29:20.780 I,

00:29:21.060 and this is where I think this house,

00:29:23.240 like this and house of cards and other things are,

00:29:25.780 are kind of,

00:29:27.000 there,

00:29:27.500 there's a shade.

00:29:29.040 They kind of have it both ways or there,

00:29:31.000 or there's another side to things.

00:29:32.560 What's interesting is that the,

00:29:34.140 the Putin figure is actually deeply admirable.

00:29:37.400 Like he's not a monster and he's not,

00:29:40.460 he's not stupid and he's actually someone who's tough.

00:29:45.480 Very smart,

00:29:47.060 maybe a little bit thuggish,

00:29:48.800 but you know,

00:29:49.880 like you understand him,

00:29:51.960 uh,

00:29:52.780 and I think he's,

00:29:53.700 don't,

00:29:53.880 don't you agree?

00:29:54.360 I mean,

00:29:54.440 he's treated as sympathetic.

00:29:56.100 To some degree.

00:29:56.720 I was,

00:29:57.060 I mean,

00:29:57.620 yeah,

00:29:57.780 obviously they were making him,

00:29:59.200 him Putin,

00:30:00.040 you know,

00:30:00.240 but at the same time,

00:30:00.960 uh,

00:30:01.560 you know,

00:30:01.780 they actually took the,

00:30:02.760 uh,

00:30:03.200 the cooler things away from Putin,

00:30:04.780 you know,

00:30:05.420 he wasn't quite,

00:30:06.180 quite as,

00:30:07.040 uh,

00:30:07.780 composed,

00:30:08.440 you know,

00:30:08.860 but,

00:30:09.740 uh,

00:30:09.760 he was a little bit more slimy,

00:30:10.840 I thought.

00:30:11.960 But,

00:30:12.520 uh,

00:30:13.100 but otherwise,

00:30:13.820 I mean,

00:30:14.040 yeah,

00:30:14.240 he's a very comparable character.

00:30:16.040 Uh,

00:30:16.240 about,

00:30:17.300 um,

00:30:17.620 maybe,

00:30:18.120 uh,

00:30:18.280 about,

00:30:18.800 uh,

00:30:19.280 as a Russian president.

00:30:21.120 Um,

00:30:21.880 you know,

00:30:22.200 there's a scene and I,

00:30:23.720 maybe,

00:30:24.560 maybe they took it directly from,

00:30:27.540 you know,

00:30:28.180 in,

00:30:28.580 um,

00:30:29.920 during the,

00:30:30.580 uh,

00:30:31.580 Syrian crisis in August,

00:30:33.920 2013,

00:30:34.700 there was a,

00:30:35.400 a very,

00:30:36.240 a very famous picture of Obama and Putin,

00:30:40.140 uh,

00:30:40.520 sitting next to another.

00:30:42.200 And you had,

00:30:43.200 uh,

00:30:43.460 Putin,

00:30:44.140 you know,

00:30:44.520 very calm,

00:30:45.420 confident,

00:30:45.800 and alpha,

00:30:47.440 uh,

00:30:47.880 as,

00:30:48.480 as man of,

00:30:49.280 three other sites used to say.

00:30:51.160 And then you had,

00:30:52.400 uh,

00:30:52.860 Obama twisted like,

00:30:54.280 um,

00:30:54.680 a grape plant and the very weak and,

00:30:58.380 uh,

00:30:59.260 you know,

00:31:00.440 uh,

00:31:02.120 uh,

00:31:02.160 elatis and,

00:31:03.260 and the contrast between the two was very striking.

00:31:07.680 And there's a similar scene because,

00:31:10.120 and the one is not,

00:31:11.980 uh,

00:31:12.940 and the one is not weak.

00:31:14.160 He's not a beta to you,

00:31:16.500 to use the same metaphor,

00:31:17.960 but,

00:31:18.420 uh,

00:31:19.280 uh,

00:31:19.880 is not as alpha,

00:31:21.160 so to speak,

00:31:21.980 as,

00:31:22.360 uh,

00:31:22.700 as a Russian president.

00:31:24.200 And there's a scene in which,

00:31:26.000 uh,

00:31:26.320 you have the two presidents sitting next to another,

00:31:28.680 and it's very close to the real one.

00:31:32.140 Um,

00:31:33.420 and of course,

00:31:34.480 uh,

00:31:35.080 during the dinner at the white house,

00:31:37.300 uh,

00:31:38.360 the Russian president dances with Claire and at the end kisses her,

00:31:43.060 which,

00:31:43.680 uh,

00:31:44.340 is,

00:31:44.760 uh,

00:31:45.500 kind of diplomatic humiliation to Underwood.

00:31:48.560 So,

00:31:48.760 uh,

00:31:49.740 the,

00:31:50.060 the character was actually more interesting than Putin,

00:31:53.480 even if there are many common points,

00:31:55.640 like the fact that he's much more liberal than his party and his,

00:32:00.360 uh,

00:32:00.900 you know,

00:32:01.220 his support in Russia.

00:32:02.360 So he's a kind of,

00:32:04.540 um,

00:32:05.660 putting his like,

00:32:06.640 um,

00:32:07.520 I think I said it before,

00:32:09.600 but Putin is like Bismarck in 19th century Germany was Bismarck was a kind of progressive,

00:32:16.800 actually.

00:32:17.660 Uh,

00:32:17.960 you know,

00:32:18.320 he has a conservative image because he was a,

00:32:21.100 he was a warrior,

00:32:22.860 but,

00:32:23.440 uh,

00:32:23.640 he was very progressive and liberal and Putin is a little like that.

00:32:28.760 He,

00:32:28.920 he doesn't,

00:32:29.640 you know,

00:32:30.680 he doesn't really have right wing values.

00:32:33.360 It just wants power.

00:32:35.020 And he knows that in post-communist Russia,

00:32:38.100 you have to be a nationalistic and conservative president if you want to remain in power.

00:32:44.600 So the,

00:32:45.720 the character was very interesting.

00:32:47.460 And,

00:32:47.840 uh,

00:32:48.580 the fact that they were describing him as maybe,

00:32:51.940 yeah,

00:32:52.700 like Jack said,

00:32:54.280 a thug who worked for the KGB and went to Afghanistan to kill Muslims.

00:33:00.320 So they were,

00:33:02.360 you know,

00:33:03.120 presenting him as a kind of dark figure,

00:33:06.940 but a very,

00:33:08.660 uh,

00:33:09.700 educated,

00:33:10.300 um,

00:33:12.120 with taste and very,

00:33:13.800 you know,

00:33:14.380 maybe he's,

00:33:15.380 um,

00:33:16.040 uh,

00:33:16.620 inside he's,

00:33:17.660 he's a thug,

00:33:18.360 but he acts in a very,

00:33:20.380 um,

00:33:22.660 a polite and,

00:33:23.920 uh,

00:33:24.780 refined manner,

00:33:25.780 which is not really the case of Underwood with more blunt and sometimes slobby,

00:33:31.780 you know,

00:33:32.300 he's maybe because he's,

00:33:35.740 he's a southern guy in,

00:33:37.680 you know,

00:33:38.080 for the producers.

00:33:39.460 Oh yeah.

00:33:40.160 Like he,

00:33:40.660 he,

00:33:40.780 you know,

00:33:41.020 he doesn't exercise and he's,

00:33:42.560 he's playing video games and,

00:33:44.280 and things like that.

00:33:45.400 I mean,

00:33:45.580 he,

00:33:45.700 he is kind of,

00:33:47.040 he,

00:33:47.500 Underwood is a little bit contemptible,

00:33:49.020 uh,

00:33:50.120 in his,

00:33:50.680 uh,

00:33:51.020 in his life.

00:33:51.640 Well,

00:33:51.800 it,

00:33:51.920 well,

00:33:52.080 it seems like the Vladimir Putin,

00:33:53.440 I'm forgetting what his name is,

00:33:54.460 but it was,

00:33:54.980 um,

00:33:55.040 it was like,

00:33:55.720 uh,

00:33:55.880 it's,

00:33:56.440 uh,

00:33:56.820 Victor Petrov.

00:33:58.480 Victor,

00:33:59.020 yeah,

00:33:59.320 VP just,

00:34:00.020 you know,

00:34:00.720 it was a,

00:34:01.260 yeah,

00:34:02.040 uh,

00:34:02.320 Romain.

00:34:02.900 Oh,

00:34:03.760 um,

00:34:04.320 but he,

00:34:05.000 he,

00:34:05.300 he was almost,

00:34:05.880 you know,

00:34:06.080 aristocratic and cultivated.

00:34:08.220 Um,

00:34:09.240 but,

00:34:09.720 uh,

00:34:10.460 did you,

00:34:10.960 he gives a good image of Russia actually.

00:34:13.600 Yeah.

00:34:14.060 Yeah.

00:34:14.960 I mean,

00:34:15.540 again,

00:34:15.940 that's interesting.

00:34:16.740 I mean,

00:34:17.060 it's almost like the Hollywood types are a little deeper and a little more multi-sided than the shrill, uh, American media that, you know,

00:34:29.740 wants to portray these things as battles between good and evil.

00:34:32.860 Uh,

00:34:33.260 it's almost like you see at the,

00:34:34.460 at the end of the,

00:34:35.260 you know,

00:34:36.000 at the end of the day,

00:34:36.860 even Hollywood kind of like wants a good adversary.

00:34:39.920 Um,

00:34:40.680 you know,

00:34:41.940 well,

00:34:42.240 you know,

00:34:42.480 another interesting thing about the two is that,

00:34:45.280 uh,

00:34:45.580 that I was thinking they had this moment where,

00:34:48.400 uh,

00:34:48.640 Francis reminds him that it's,

00:34:50.960 it's harder for him because he has to,

00:34:53.000 you know,

00:34:53.420 have a real election.

00:34:54.660 Yeah.

00:34:55.100 You know,

00:34:55.760 he actually has to actually,

00:34:57.220 you know,

00:34:58.460 cater to the voters.

00:34:59.300 And in many ways,

00:35:00.200 I mean,

00:35:00.460 the contrast between the two of them,

00:35:02.480 as that,

00:35:03.140 uh,

00:35:03.700 Roman pointed out,

00:35:04.520 you know,

00:35:05.880 in as many ways,

00:35:06.820 the contrast of,

00:35:07.660 you know,

00:35:08.020 having to cater to the American public,

00:35:10.540 which needs,

00:35:11.500 you know,

00:35:12.240 needs its president to be soft at this point,

00:35:14.940 they can't tolerate,

00:35:16.320 they're not going to tolerate a,

00:35:18.360 you know,

00:35:19.440 kind of a,

00:35:20.480 someone as strong as the Victor character.

00:35:23.940 Yeah.

00:35:25.880 Oh,

00:35:26.180 totally.

00:35:26.840 But I think it,

00:35:27.600 but they might secretly want one.

00:35:29.600 Oh yeah,

00:35:30.300 of course they do,

00:35:31.000 but they,

00:35:31.420 they wouldn't vote for one at this point.

00:35:33.520 You know,

00:35:33.700 it's like,

00:35:34.060 uh,

00:35:34.740 they would want one,

00:35:35.720 but,

00:35:36.000 uh,

00:35:36.580 you know,

00:35:36.920 we wouldn't play well in the,

00:35:38.260 in the papers or the,

00:35:39.640 you know,

00:35:40.000 on CNN,

00:35:41.060 you know,

00:35:41.300 he would come off as too hard and too fascist and too dictatorial.

00:35:45.680 There's actually a great line from the BBC version where,

00:35:48.400 uh,

00:35:48.940 Francis is stalking with his wife and they're talking about,

00:35:51.720 you know,

00:35:52.240 electoral coalitions.

00:35:53.240 And Francis says,

00:35:54.280 well,

00:35:54.560 we can't please everyone.

00:35:55.880 And his wife says,

00:35:57.060 don't be so sure.

00:35:58.540 Everyone secretly wants to be dominated.

00:36:03.660 So,

00:36:04.860 uh,

00:36:05.180 no,

00:36:05.420 there's some good,

00:36:06.140 um,

00:36:06.500 uh,

00:36:06.720 there's some good,

00:36:07.280 some good sentiments.

00:36:09.160 Um,

00:36:09.540 I,

00:36:10.340 why don't we talk a little bit,

00:36:12.080 let's do this.

00:36:12.900 Let's talk.

00:36:13.540 I want to,

00:36:14.120 I think we should talk a little bit about,

00:36:15.740 uh,

00:36:16.580 Francis as this like Caesarist Caesar character and,

00:36:21.540 and almost a fascist that I think is brought up kind of in,

00:36:25.660 in the third season a little bit.

00:36:28.220 Um,

00:36:28.760 but I,

00:36:29.180 I just,

00:36:29.580 I,

00:36:29.720 I think we,

00:36:30.200 I didn't want to mention the,

00:36:32.480 um,

00:36:33.620 the,

00:36:34.120 the,

00:36:34.460 the figure of this,

00:36:35.460 uh,

00:36:35.820 gay marriage advocate,

00:36:37.180 uh,

00:36:37.620 whom Claire meets in Russia.

00:36:40.040 And I,

00:36:41.220 I mean,

00:36:41.700 I just found this,

00:36:43.740 this is almost like the Hollywood fantasy in a totally stupid,

00:36:48.380 blind way.

00:36:50.060 And the sense of you have them,

00:36:52.460 um,

00:36:52.860 I'm forgetting the exact plot detail.

00:36:54.980 Uh,

00:36:55.500 but there's,

00:36:56.180 there's basically an American gay marriage advocate who was protesting in Russia and he's been arrested.

00:37:01.960 And in order to get some diplomatic deal done,

00:37:05.880 part of it is that they,

00:37:07.640 that,

00:37:08.000 um,

00:37:08.440 that Victor,

00:37:09.640 uh,

00:37:09.920 is going to release this American national.

00:37:13.400 And you meet,

00:37:14.540 Claire actually spends all time with this person in,

00:37:18.140 uh,

00:37:18.520 a Russian prison.

00:37:19.640 He's actually being well treated,

00:37:21.340 uh,

00:37:21.640 what he says.

00:37:22.320 And,

00:37:22.960 um,

00:37:23.560 but Claire is being this,

00:37:25.640 you know,

00:37:25.960 pragmatist saying,

00:37:26.860 oh,

00:37:27.020 we need to pursue compromise and all this kind of stuff.

00:37:30.020 And the gay rights act,

00:37:31.600 active,

00:37:32.040 activist is like,

00:37:33.440 never,

00:37:34.120 there's no compromise and revolution.

00:37:36.160 And he just says all of this pompous kind of stuff.

00:37:40.540 And I found it to be,

00:37:42.240 it's almost like in the end of history where we are now,

00:37:45.240 uh,

00:37:45.940 where all we're doing is like determine,

00:37:48.680 you know,

00:37:48.920 we're just discovering new human rights and,

00:37:51.580 and things like that.

00:37:52.560 Like there's,

00:37:52.980 there's no great political or ideological struggle.

00:37:55.980 Uh,

00:37:56.300 you know,

00:37:56.740 it's almost like the gay rights advocate is now like a,

00:38:00.180 some Leninist character.

00:38:02.000 You know,

00:38:02.320 where it's like,

00:38:02.820 like we shall bring gay marriage to Bulgaria.

00:38:06.460 Like Bulgaria will fall.

00:38:08.660 And after that,

00:38:09.640 the entire East will be ours.

00:38:11.120 Like it's this,

00:38:12.060 it's this.

00:38:12.940 Well,

00:38:13.200 it's like everything.

00:38:13.780 I mean,

00:38:14.040 the,

00:38:14.480 because you don't have real problems,

00:38:15.660 you have to make everything progressively more,

00:38:17.900 the language has to become more hysterical.

00:38:19.980 Right.

00:38:20.660 Uh,

00:38:20.820 you know,

00:38:21.000 so you make big,

00:38:21.760 I mean,

00:38:22.080 it's like,

00:38:22.440 you know,

00:38:22.620 like everything,

00:38:23.400 uh,

00:38:23.800 in the grocery store is a war on,

00:38:25.600 you know,

00:38:26.580 it's a,

00:38:26.960 you know,

00:38:27.100 you have to have a war on obesity and a war on,

00:38:29.600 uh,

00:38:30.180 every,

00:38:30.840 you know,

00:38:31.000 a war on cancer,

00:38:32.020 war on this and more of that.

00:38:33.200 And it's,

00:38:33.860 you know,

00:38:34.040 of course those,

00:38:34.680 those are not real wars.

00:38:36.020 And of course they can't be won either,

00:38:37.600 but,

00:38:39.280 uh,

00:38:39.540 you know,

00:38:39.760 you have people talk like that.

00:38:41.320 Right.

00:38:44.480 Well,

00:38:45.260 we were losing the war on boredom.

00:38:47.340 Uh,

00:38:47.740 but yeah,

00:38:50.000 no,

00:38:50.200 I,

00:38:50.340 I think that that is,

00:38:51.240 it's just kind of funny.

00:38:52.300 It's almost like that.

00:38:53.120 That's the last revolution is,

00:38:54.700 um,

00:38:55.080 uh,

00:38:55.640 gay marriage.

00:38:56.100 I just found that kind of,

00:38:57.160 uh,

00:38:57.760 silly when it's like being supported by,

00:39:00.200 uh,

00:39:00.920 you know,

00:39:01.780 you know,

00:39:02.500 it's George Soros and,

00:39:04.640 you know,

00:39:04.840 all of corporate America or something.

00:39:06.880 Right.

00:39:07.080 Oh,

00:39:07.320 this is anyway.

00:39:08.720 Um,

00:39:09.360 I thought that was kind of funny.

00:39:10.500 Um,

00:39:10.680 but,

00:39:12.020 uh,

00:39:13.540 yeah,

00:39:13.860 let,

00:39:14.140 let's talk a little bit about,

00:39:15.560 um,

00:39:16.560 Francis as a,

00:39:18.160 uh,

00:39:19.080 as a Caesar.

00:39:20.740 And I,

00:39:21.400 I think there's a lot of,

00:39:22.800 there are a lot of different elements to this.

00:39:24.460 Uh,

00:39:25.420 I'll,

00:39:25.720 I'll just mention,

00:39:27.280 let me just do,

00:39:27.980 I'll,

00:39:28.120 I'll just start with what he was talking about in the third season where,

00:39:30.860 uh,

00:39:32.100 you know,

00:39:32.400 he's,

00:39:32.740 he's way down in the polls.

00:39:35.440 Uh,

00:39:35.940 he looks like he,

00:39:37.080 he's going to lose this election,

00:39:38.940 maybe shouldn't even run.

00:39:41.080 And then he decides to just go big or go home kind of thing with this program called America Works.

00:39:48.120 And it's very interesting because he,

00:39:50.740 he goes in a,

00:39:51.500 he,

00:39:51.620 he does a national televised speech and he says he's not going to run,

00:39:56.220 which of course is a lie.

00:39:57.840 Um,

00:39:58.280 but he,

00:39:59.740 he says that.

00:40:00.440 And then he basically says these things like,

00:40:02.120 you are entitled to nothing.

00:40:04.260 Let me repeat that.

00:40:05.460 You are entitled to nothing.

00:40:07.520 And he basically,

00:40:09.540 he,

00:40:09.760 he says something that I think a lot of people probably recognize that the,

00:40:13.820 the,

00:40:14.220 in the back of their mind,

00:40:15.340 but they're,

00:40:16.080 but they're totally unwilling to even broach the topic politically.

00:40:20.820 And that is that we have this entitlement structure of hundreds of trillions of dollars,

00:40:27.020 and there's just no way we can actually pay it.

00:40:30.700 And,

00:40:30.960 uh,

00:40:31.440 or we're,

00:40:31.980 you know,

00:40:32.200 we're,

00:40:32.420 we're going to be paying social security and more and more debt and so on and so forth.

00:40:37.260 And he kind of,

00:40:38.680 he offers this,

00:40:39.800 like,

00:40:40.600 it's like he,

00:40:41.860 he,

00:40:42.200 he recognizes the unworkability of the old entitlement state,

00:40:47.700 you know,

00:40:48.340 derived from FDR.

00:40:49.820 And then he offers this new one in its place that is actually a kind of direct socialism or really fascism.

00:40:57.860 And it's really like,

00:40:59.200 if you're willing to work,

00:41:00.840 we'll,

00:41:01.160 you know,

00:41:01.320 we'll give you a job,

00:41:02.520 you,

00:41:02.660 you know,

00:41:03.240 we'll just go work,

00:41:05.060 you know,

00:41:05.320 this kind of,

00:41:06.460 it's,

00:41:06.820 it's a very different kind of socialism.

00:41:09.000 And I,

00:41:09.480 and I think it is much more something like you would see,

00:41:12.180 in,

00:41:12.500 in Mussolini's day than you,

00:41:15.040 than would be a program,

00:41:16.440 the American,

00:41:17.440 you know,

00:41:17.720 in,

00:41:17.860 in our day.

00:41:18.560 I mean,

00:41:18.900 in,

00:41:19.100 in America,

00:41:19.580 we,

00:41:19.940 we have a tremendous amount of socialism,

00:41:23.080 if you want to call it that,

00:41:24.780 but it's all hidden and it's all,

00:41:27.140 and it's all kind of mendacious.

00:41:28.820 So you'll,

00:41:30.080 you'll,

00:41:30.320 we'll do things like,

00:41:31.320 oh,

00:41:31.500 everyone should have health insurance.

00:41:32.940 So we'll spend trillions of dollars to give everyone health insurance,

00:41:36.000 as opposed to doing something like providing health care through the government.

00:41:40.980 Like,

00:41:41.200 wouldn't that be simpler?

00:41:42.540 Or like,

00:41:42.920 we're going to sponsor all these housing loans or something.

00:41:45.500 We could never build,

00:41:47.260 you know,

00:41:47.700 government housing.

00:41:48.580 That's socialist.

00:41:49.520 But instead,

00:41:50.000 we're going to spend more money,

00:41:51.060 and by sponsoring loans.

00:41:53.800 Like,

00:41:53.940 we,

00:41:54.160 we like to hide socialism.

00:41:56.420 And,

00:41:56.940 because we don't,

00:41:57.500 we want to pretend that we live in this,

00:41:59.880 you know,

00:42:00.100 free society.

00:42:01.440 And,

00:42:02.020 but I think in a way,

00:42:03.120 like Underwood gives us a glimpse of maybe what a lot of people really want.

00:42:07.620 And that is just direct government action.

00:42:11.580 You know,

00:42:12.180 we'll pay you,

00:42:13.120 just go work.

00:42:14.480 I mean,

00:42:14.800 I mean,

00:42:15.360 I think that most,

00:42:16.020 I think that,

00:42:16.720 you know,

00:42:16.920 that the speech he gave to open that program,

00:42:20.100 I mean,

00:42:20.380 it's something that I know a lot of,

00:42:22.360 you know,

00:42:23.040 my readers would like,

00:42:25.620 you know,

00:42:26.280 I mean,

00:42:26.500 a lot of,

00:42:27.380 you know,

00:42:27.760 kind of guys with a,

00:42:29.480 you know,

00:42:30.480 pick yourself up by your bootstraps kind of attitude.

00:42:33.020 Of course,

00:42:33.720 you know,

00:42:34.200 you want to,

00:42:34.820 you know,

00:42:35.180 have a very realistic view of the world,

00:42:36.900 you know,

00:42:37.120 no,

00:42:37.500 no one owes you anything.

00:42:39.140 And,

00:42:39.560 you know,

00:42:39.960 you have no,

00:42:40.700 I mean,

00:42:40.920 it's a great,

00:42:41.920 it's a great sentiment,

00:42:43.400 you know,

00:42:44.680 on that perspective.

00:42:45.700 And,

00:42:45.820 you know,

00:42:46.140 I don't know,

00:42:47.420 you know,

00:42:49.060 I don't know if,

00:42:49.720 I mean,

00:42:51.040 I guess in terms of like a liberal fantasy,

00:42:53.700 as you said,

00:42:54.260 I mean,

00:42:54.460 he's definitely,

00:42:55.220 that is something I think that a lot of them would like,

00:42:58.020 would have liked Obama to just walk in and issue executive orders,

00:43:02.240 giving everyone,

00:43:03.980 you know,

00:43:04.480 $20 an hour.

00:43:06.120 And,

00:43:06.640 you know,

00:43:07.200 all these on work,

00:43:08.320 all these new unworkable things,

00:43:11.160 you know,

00:43:11.600 go dig ditches.

00:43:13.500 Yeah.

00:43:13.740 Yeah.

00:43:14.260 Yeah.

00:43:14.460 Yeah.

00:43:15.000 Yeah.

00:43:15.380 And then,

00:43:15.920 and then put,

00:43:16.600 put the dirt back in there again and dick them all over.

00:43:19.580 Exactly.

00:43:20.020 I mean,

00:43:20.420 I know I say that and,

00:43:21.660 and like libertarians love to like make fun of government programs like that,

00:43:25.740 but like,

00:43:26.720 isn't there,

00:43:27.700 I mean,

00:43:27.980 I can't believe I used to be a libertarian,

00:43:30.180 but isn't there a kind of like a common good and a decency of people working?

00:43:36.420 Like I don't like maybe they should,

00:43:39.980 maybe we should help them just go dig dishes,

00:43:42.820 you know?

00:43:43.580 I mean,

00:43:43.860 I mean,

00:43:44.180 Oregon actually has a lot of really good examples of,

00:43:47.340 I mean,

00:43:47.680 I think it was a WPA project or something.

00:43:51.000 The Timberline Lodge that's on Mount hood is beautiful.

00:43:54.440 Yeah.

00:43:54.920 And they hired a bunch of,

00:43:56.280 you know,

00:43:56.400 I mean,

00:43:56.540 basically out of works craftsmen and all these people to do all this great carving and make this beautiful lodge.

00:44:03.500 And,

00:44:03.980 you know,

00:44:04.660 it exists,

00:44:05.240 you know,

00:44:05.400 there were,

00:44:05.960 you know,

00:44:06.780 painters that they,

00:44:08.000 you know,

00:44:08.280 hired and all these kinds of things to make great paintings and so forth.

00:44:12.400 And there's things,

00:44:14.380 you know,

00:44:14.580 like even the prisoners go up and clean up the hiking trails.

00:44:17.580 Yeah.

00:44:18.000 You know,

00:44:18.300 there are things that,

00:44:19.600 yeah,

00:44:19.680 you can put people to work doing things that are actually useful,

00:44:22.860 but,

00:44:23.320 you know,

00:44:23.440 I have to wonder,

00:44:24.540 you know,

00:44:24.820 if that would really be,

00:44:26.120 I mean,

00:44:26.340 I think it works in,

00:44:27.740 you know,

00:44:27.900 like someplace like Oregon.

00:44:29.020 I don't know about whether it would work in,

00:44:30.740 I don't know,

00:44:31.940 like Alabama or,

00:44:33.660 you know,

00:44:34.220 Detroit,

00:44:34.860 you know,

00:44:35.660 whether people would say,

00:44:36.860 no,

00:44:37.020 how about I shoot you instead?

00:44:39.520 How about I shoot you and take your money?

00:44:41.560 Yeah,

00:44:41.720 I think,

00:44:42.380 yeah,

00:44:43.180 well,

00:44:43.400 I think you're getting at something as well.

00:44:45.020 Like,

00:44:45.200 I forgot what percentage of the population is on workers' compensation.

00:44:49.520 I mean,

00:44:49.620 it's very high.

00:44:50.660 It's like shockingly high,

00:44:52.020 20% or something.

00:44:53.680 I can't remember what it is all.

00:44:55.640 But anyway,

00:44:56.560 you know,

00:44:56.880 we have a lot of,

00:44:57.780 we do have a kind of benefit state where there's a lot of people like,

00:45:01.860 ah,

00:45:02.220 let me just sit around and collect money.

00:45:04.680 And,

00:45:05.080 and I think there is a kind of maybe a yearning of kind of like,

00:45:10.380 well,

00:45:10.940 yeah,

00:45:11.220 why don't you go build a hiking trail?

00:45:13.180 I mean,

00:45:13.440 think of how much of the national park system and things like that were

00:45:16.980 improved.

00:45:17.960 And some of them just created by,

00:45:19.780 by all of these work programs.

00:45:22.140 And,

00:45:22.620 yeah,

00:45:23.220 I mean,

00:45:23.460 it's,

00:45:23.740 it's a kind of,

00:45:24.800 we're,

00:45:24.940 we're almost like not good enough to do that anymore.

00:45:28.100 Yeah.

00:45:28.580 Well,

00:45:28.920 we're not craftsmen for one thing.

00:45:30.340 Go ahead.

00:45:30.680 Well,

00:45:30.980 again,

00:45:31.640 there's that kind of,

00:45:32.440 well,

00:45:32.600 yeah,

00:45:32.760 there's,

00:45:33.420 you know,

00:45:33.680 the people really don't have any skills.

00:45:34.880 I mean,

00:45:35.100 you know,

00:45:35.440 there were,

00:45:35.900 there were wood carvers then,

00:45:37.580 you know,

00:45:38.680 there aren't now,

00:45:39.780 you know,

00:45:40.000 there aren't people who have that skill.

00:45:41.620 You'd actually have to teach them first.

00:45:43.660 But,

00:45:44.100 you know,

00:45:44.460 people,

00:45:44.940 I mean,

00:45:45.200 the only skill that they've had,

00:45:46.220 they've,

00:45:46.520 you know,

00:45:46.680 run a cash register or something like that,

00:45:49.060 that,

00:45:49.360 you know,

00:45:49.580 really,

00:45:50.020 you know,

00:45:50.460 isn't anything.

00:45:51.340 Right.

00:45:51.840 That any person,

00:45:53.180 any junior high school kid could learn.

00:45:55.520 And,

00:45:55.880 you know,

00:45:57.040 so you don't have that anymore.

00:45:58.300 And in many ways,

00:45:58.900 and there's also this,

00:46:00.340 a lot of the people who are on,

00:46:01.760 you know,

00:46:02.420 assistance of some kind have perpetuated a disability.

00:46:07.260 Yeah.

00:46:08.160 You know,

00:46:08.440 and they,

00:46:08.760 they want to be there.

00:46:09.840 It's not that they can't get jobs.

00:46:11.360 It's,

00:46:11.800 you know,

00:46:12.580 people who have actually gained the system and,

00:46:16.980 you know,

00:46:17.720 hurt themselves on purpose,

00:46:19.720 you know,

00:46:20.440 hurt themselves on purpose or done the,

00:46:22.840 I have a sore back thing.

00:46:24.700 There's a lot of the,

00:46:25.660 I have a sore back thing,

00:46:26.640 you know,

00:46:27.860 and therefore I'm on disability for a year,

00:46:30.640 two years,

00:46:31.260 three years,

00:46:32.040 you know,

00:46:32.660 when really it could probably be fixed in a week,

00:46:34.820 you know,

00:46:35.020 that,

00:46:35.360 that kind of stuff.

00:46:36.380 Or really it's just because you're fat,

00:46:38.560 you know,

00:46:38.860 and you're top heavy,

00:46:40.460 you know,

00:46:41.760 there's a lot of that in America.

00:46:42.900 And I,

00:46:43.300 I don't think that,

00:46:44.340 you know,

00:46:44.560 as much as they should,

00:46:46.200 they would say other people should work.

00:46:48.480 There's a lot of people who have absolutely no intention of working.

00:46:51.560 And they,

00:46:51.960 in a way need,

00:46:52.580 I would say it also,

00:46:54.160 like,

00:46:54.360 I agree that Americans are,

00:46:56.300 many of them are,

00:46:57.380 are quite lazy,

00:46:58.180 but you know,

00:46:59.400 there are a lot of people who in a way need to be taken care of in the right way.

00:47:04.560 You know what I mean?

00:47:05.100 Like we,

00:47:05.920 we should be,

00:47:06.500 on trains.

00:47:11.060 Well,

00:47:11.440 I think it,

00:47:12.020 I think we should build up a new railway system in the United States.

00:47:14.880 Excellent.

00:47:15.380 Yeah.

00:47:15.900 I agree.

00:47:16.600 I literally agree with that.

00:47:17.920 But yeah,

00:47:18.720 I don't,

00:47:19.600 I actually meant that in a very paternalistic sense.

00:47:21.980 You know,

00:47:22.460 we want to,

00:47:23.020 we have this instinct where,

00:47:24.620 look,

00:47:24.940 we're probably never going to have like a,

00:47:27.780 a free market healthcare system.

00:47:30.140 I mean,

00:47:30.660 that might very well be more efficient or it might serve everyone's needs,

00:47:35.300 but there's just something about us as human beings that,

00:47:37.900 that strikes us as,

00:47:38.920 as,

00:47:39.860 as cold and uncaring.

00:47:41.640 And we,

00:47:42.240 we,

00:47:42.540 we,

00:47:42.740 there would be some horror story.

00:47:44.840 And we,

00:47:45.240 we just couldn't put up with the notion that someone who couldn't pay for it,

00:47:49.220 you know,

00:47:49.460 wouldn't get healthcare.

00:47:50.540 There's always going to be some kind of paternalism in society.

00:47:53.920 And the question really is like,

00:47:55.720 how do we do it?

00:47:57.140 And I think the way Americans do it is that we have like mendacious socialism where we,

00:48:03.240 you know,

00:48:03.620 it's like we could spend a hundred million dollars just directly giving people food,

00:48:09.920 but no,

00:48:10.740 no,

00:48:10.860 no,

00:48:10.920 no.

00:48:11.000 Let's spend 250 million on,

00:48:13.620 you know,

00:48:14.480 debit card,

00:48:15.640 like a food stamps that look like debit cards.

00:48:17.920 So people can pretend like they actually have money.

00:48:20.520 You know,

00:48:20.840 it's like,

00:48:21.180 we,

00:48:21.320 we want to always lie about what we do.

00:48:23.960 It's just this inherent aspect of,

00:48:26.060 of Americans.

00:48:27.140 They,

00:48:27.280 we,

00:48:27.420 they really are very,

00:48:29.100 we,

00:48:30.020 we want to lie to ourselves.

00:48:31.580 Very funny thing.

00:48:32.840 But anyway,

00:48:33.880 so we're,

00:48:35.520 maybe you,

00:48:36.220 maybe we can say that his story is back with America walks in,

00:48:42.480 because maybe I should remind our listeners that we are talking about house of cards.

00:48:48.500 Well,

00:48:49.060 okay.

00:48:49.280 Let me finish this real quick.

00:48:51.980 I'm the host.

00:48:53.280 Let's get back to my real rape program.

00:48:56.680 Oh,

00:48:57.240 I promise.

00:48:58.020 I promise I'll bring it back.

00:48:59.360 Hold on.

00:48:59.680 I won't know.

00:49:00.560 I wanted to,

00:49:01.680 to,

00:49:02.480 um,

00:49:03.680 complete your idea,

00:49:04.960 but,

00:49:05.060 uh,

00:49:06.440 history is back in a way because,

00:49:08.620 um,

00:49:10.600 the welfare states,

00:49:11.900 uh,

00:49:12.500 which has degenerated in a society where you have half of the national wealth that is taken by the state and then redistributed in,

00:49:23.920 you know,

00:49:24.700 many programs that keep maybe 20% of the workforce home.

00:49:32.060 If you take the real statistics and not the official ones,

00:49:35.680 you know,

00:49:36.600 and especially blacks in America,

00:49:38.540 um,

00:49:40.300 and there's something more honest,

00:49:42.960 but also more,

00:49:43.940 um,

00:49:44.860 you know,

00:49:45.580 societies in motion again with,

00:49:47.720 uh,

00:49:48.640 Underwood's program.

00:49:49.900 You have,

00:49:50.860 um,

00:49:51.340 he says that people are going to,

00:49:53.480 you know,

00:49:54.840 um,

00:49:56.100 I think,

00:49:56.860 uh,

00:49:57.660 there are three pillars in his program,

00:50:00.140 but,

00:50:00.460 uh,

00:50:01.200 so he wants to increase the military,

00:50:04.020 which is not something really new,

00:50:05.880 but something interesting wants to do is to,

00:50:09.000 uh,

00:50:09.540 improve the infrastructure and,

00:50:11.700 uh,

00:50:12.520 coming from Europe where,

00:50:14.620 uh,

00:50:16.640 much money is put in roads and things like that.

00:50:20.560 When you drive in America,

00:50:22.020 it's,

00:50:22.480 uh,

00:50:23.160 surprising how roads are,

00:50:25.140 uh,

00:50:26.000 the bad state,

00:50:27.300 uh,

00:50:27.680 of the roads where,

00:50:28.740 when you drive in,

00:50:30.320 uh,

00:50:30.940 uh,

00:50:31.580 on the turnpikes,

00:50:32.940 et cetera.

00:50:33.580 And,

00:50:33.980 um,

00:50:34.540 there's no train system really to speak of.

00:50:37.060 I mean,

00:50:37.260 Amtrak.

00:50:37.800 Yeah.

00:50:38.140 And you have holes,

00:50:39.840 you have holes on highways,

00:50:41.420 uh,

00:50:42.320 which,

00:50:42.780 and,

00:50:44.020 uh,

00:50:44.500 and this is because you only have,

00:50:47.000 uh,

00:50:47.840 private companies which,

00:50:49.520 uh,

00:50:50.560 work for public contracts,

00:50:52.240 which are overpaid and overpriced to the taxpayer.

00:50:56.180 And then Underwood comes with a program that says,

00:50:59.860 okay,

00:51:00.140 we have to use,

00:51:02.060 uh,

00:51:02.940 minimum wage people who otherwise would be on the street or,

00:51:08.060 uh,

00:51:09.440 be,

00:51:09.880 uh,

00:51:10.060 on drugs or in prison.

00:51:11.820 And we have to take them to dig this all these holes.

00:51:15.980 And as you say,

00:51:17.140 libertarians might make fun of it,

00:51:19.640 but,

00:51:20.120 uh,

00:51:21.040 you get more dignity and honor by digging holes.

00:51:24.800 If they are useful,

00:51:25.640 then staying home and eating,

00:51:28.140 you know,

00:51:29.040 pizza.

00:51:29.620 It's yeah.

00:51:30.660 I mean,

00:51:31.140 so libertarians are wrong,

00:51:33.120 wrong on all counts.

00:51:34.340 We,

00:51:34.620 we knew that,

00:51:35.500 but now it's official.

00:51:37.000 Oh,

00:51:37.100 it's official.

00:51:37.760 It's decided.

00:51:40.500 Um,

00:51:40.740 and this fictional miniseries has,

00:51:43.560 has determined this,

00:51:44.860 uh,

00:51:45.560 this fact.

00:51:46.040 No,

00:51:46.300 I,

00:51:46.580 I,

00:51:46.940 I completely agree.

00:51:47.980 I mean,

00:51:48.160 it's how I feel as I get older.

00:51:49.560 I mean,

00:51:49.740 it's like we're going to be paternalistic.

00:51:53.120 And the question is,

00:51:54.100 how are we going to do it?

00:51:55.100 And the current American version is awful.

00:51:58.260 I mean,

00:51:58.500 it's everything.

00:52:00.020 It's just,

00:52:01.240 just look at it,

00:52:02.060 you know?

00:52:02.400 I mean,

00:52:02.660 it's not what we want to do.

00:52:04.300 And I think in a way,

00:52:05.680 like we should,

00:52:06.860 we should start thinking about that.

00:52:08.300 Like,

00:52:08.580 how are we going to,

00:52:09.380 how are we going to take care of people?

00:52:11.320 Because there's not this liberal and,

00:52:14.600 you know,

00:52:15.700 Fox newsy type notion of like,

00:52:17.540 Oh,

00:52:17.700 everyone can just take care of themselves.

00:52:19.780 Everyone look,

00:52:20.820 no,

00:52:21.620 like they can't.

00:52:23.500 And like,

00:52:24.300 it's,

00:52:24.600 it's better to really think about it,

00:52:26.020 to be realistic.

00:52:26.740 And they don't want to,

00:52:27.900 and they don't want to,

00:52:29.060 you know,

00:52:29.600 which is that they don't want to,

00:52:30.920 and they can't.

00:52:31.320 It's the same thing in a way.

00:52:32.200 Like,

00:52:32.500 you know,

00:52:33.140 um,

00:52:33.700 we,

00:52:34.220 so we need to think about like,

00:52:36.080 what's a good type of paternalism?

00:52:38.040 And make,

00:52:39.580 having people work and in a way,

00:52:41.520 making them work in some instances,

00:52:43.820 like that,

00:52:45.020 that's so much more positive than like getting them involved in some totally

00:52:50.440 phony health insurance market that's semi-governmental or something,

00:52:55.480 or,

00:52:56.500 you know,

00:52:56.840 giving them more disabilities or,

00:52:58.460 or whatever,

00:52:59.480 or,

00:52:59.780 or even promising them some retirement thing.

00:53:02.000 That's kind of a joke in,

00:53:02.960 you know,

00:53:03.080 social security.

00:53:03.780 It's kind of a joke anyway,

00:53:04.660 and that they may never even benefit from,

00:53:06.660 you know,

00:53:06.880 like why don't,

00:53:07.940 why don't when they're 30 years old,

00:53:09.580 they go out and build a railroad or something.

00:53:12.020 And I,

00:53:12.720 I think it is like,

00:53:13.940 I don't think this is,

00:53:15.080 you know,

00:53:15.240 this is something that we're talking about,

00:53:17.020 but I actually bet,

00:53:17.900 I bet a lot of tremendous amount of people,

00:53:20.100 whether they're liberal or conservative or whatever,

00:53:24.060 um,

00:53:24.780 think like this.

00:53:25.880 And I think they,

00:53:26.840 they kind of think it in their gut.

00:53:28.140 And I,

00:53:28.680 I agree with what Jackson,

00:53:29.820 like,

00:53:29.940 I think in 2009,

00:53:31.480 I think a lot of people really wanted Obama to just like do that.

00:53:36.100 You know,

00:53:36.580 it's just like,

00:53:37.520 let's spend a trillion and let's just all build a new light rail system or something,

00:53:42.940 you know,

00:53:43.380 who cares if it's useful or efficient?

00:53:45.620 Like,

00:53:45.820 let's just do it.

00:53:46.720 And I think people really wanted that.

00:53:48.320 And I think they still do want it.

00:53:49.480 And to be frank,

00:53:50.720 I think that's a infinitely better use of government money than kind of nonsense.

00:53:56.060 We spend it on.

00:53:56.680 Then baiting out banks.

00:53:58.860 Oh yeah,

00:53:59.300 right.

00:53:59.520 That's the American way is what let's bail out a gigantic financial insurance conglomerate.

00:54:05.200 You know,

00:54:06.260 when you put together all the pieces of the puzzle,

00:54:09.760 you,

00:54:10.140 because you know,

00:54:11.320 uh,

00:54:11.700 you have people complaining about the state,

00:54:14.320 people complaining about the banks.

00:54:16.620 And of course the welfare state and the banks are one and the same.

00:54:20.600 And,

00:54:21.200 uh,

00:54:21.520 so you have,

00:54:22.980 um,

00:54:23.940 uh,

00:54:24.300 the system is slightly different in Europe because,

00:54:27.220 uh,

00:54:27.880 private banks,

00:54:28.860 don't officially control the central bank.

00:54:31.860 It's more,

00:54:32.420 uh,

00:54:33.540 indirect than that.

00:54:35.420 But,

00:54:35.740 uh,

00:54:36.420 the U S system is that you have,

00:54:38.980 uh,

00:54:40.420 you have private banks printing money out of nothing.

00:54:44.380 And then people buy stuff they couldn't buy otherwise to private companies.

00:54:51.160 that that's the way that that's the way the economy works.

00:54:54.160 And of course,

00:54:55.480 uh,

00:54:55.780 that's why we are being bought off by,

00:54:58.860 uh,

00:54:59.720 by China and other countries.

00:55:01.600 it's because it's,

00:55:02.860 it's,

00:55:02.880 it's,

00:55:03.780 it's,

00:55:03.840 you know,

00:55:05.260 it brings inflation and debt and it's totally unworkable.

00:55:08.840 And maybe America works.

00:55:12.880 So Underwood's program is kind of non-realistic,

00:55:18.220 especially in,

00:55:19.040 in old times,

00:55:20.440 maybe it's too late for that,

00:55:21.820 uh,

00:55:22.440 before a real crash happens,

00:55:24.240 but at least it would be a way to end that system,

00:55:28.620 you know,

00:55:29.220 of,

00:55:29.640 uh,

00:55:30.540 Goldman Sachs printing fake money.

00:55:33.140 And then you buy things out of which there's tax,

00:55:37.340 uh,

00:55:38.260 going to the government.

00:55:39.260 It's,

00:55:40.160 you know,

00:55:41.000 this,

00:55:41.960 uh,

00:55:43.180 and,

00:55:44.200 um,

00:55:45.240 interestingly in the series,

00:55:47.060 uh,

00:55:48.020 Democrats oppose the program,

00:55:50.160 but,

00:55:50.360 uh,

00:55:51.340 Republicans tend to approve it,

00:55:53.420 which,

00:55:54.200 uh,

00:55:55.200 again,

00:55:55.820 uh,

00:55:56.440 that's one thing we discussed before recording,

00:55:59.320 but,

00:55:59.520 uh,

00:56:00.760 more and more,

00:56:01.720 you have the feeling watching the,

00:56:03.140 third season that there's a one party state coming and Underwood being,

00:56:09.160 being the head of it in a way.

00:56:12.340 That'd be an interesting story.

00:56:13.120 But I talked too long.

00:56:15.220 Oh no,

00:56:15.660 I,

00:56:15.780 I hope that's the fourth season.

00:56:20.000 You know,

00:56:20.740 one thing I'll just mention because,

00:56:22.740 uh,

00:56:23.020 I,

00:56:23.160 I've actually watched the,

00:56:24.520 the,

00:56:25.280 uh,

00:56:25.680 BBC version and,

00:56:27.980 uh,

00:56:28.460 in the second season,

00:56:29.800 the BBC version,

00:56:30.640 there's just three seasons,

00:56:31.800 a trilogy.

00:56:33.060 Uh,

00:56:33.140 uh,

00:56:33.520 but basically Francis Urquhart battles against a newly crowned King of England.

00:56:40.600 Um,

00:56:41.060 and,

00:56:41.780 uh,

00:56:42.120 he,

00:56:42.280 he's this interesting guy.

00:56:43.620 He's actually played by this actor named Michael Kitchen,

00:56:45.940 uh,

00:56:47.140 who,

00:56:47.700 uh,

00:56:48.540 he was in some of the Pierce Brosnan,

00:56:51.580 James Bond movies.

00:56:52.520 But anyway,

00:56:53.180 he's,

00:56:53.680 he's a very good actor.

00:56:55.160 And he,

00:56:55.340 he,

00:56:55.560 he plays the King in this upright,

00:56:58.260 earnest,

00:56:59.040 deeply earnest manner of like,

00:57:00.740 uh,

00:57:00.940 well,

00:57:01.480 I say,

00:57:02.060 man,

00:57:02.560 uh,

00:57:02.580 Ken,

00:57:03.220 don't we need some more idealism about,

00:57:05.160 uh,

00:57:05.320 everyone's just so depressed.

00:57:06.920 You know,

00:57:07.200 he,

00:57:07.500 this kind of way,

00:57:09.240 but,

00:57:09.680 but the King is a kind of interesting character because the,

00:57:13.040 you know,

00:57:13.360 Urquhart is a Tory and he's,

00:57:15.580 he now has a,

00:57:16.400 uh,

00:57:16.940 you know,

00:57:17.180 a ruling,

00:57:17.740 uh,

00:57:18.300 coalition and he seems untouchable.

00:57:20.820 And the King does challenge him and the King,

00:57:23.280 uh,

00:57:24.340 puts forth these,

00:57:25.880 these kind of,

00:57:26.580 you know,

00:57:27.380 kind of naive idealistic policy agendas.

00:57:30.260 Like,

00:57:30.940 well,

00:57:31.100 we should have,

00:57:31.900 you know,

00:57:32.160 public works programs that are beautiful.

00:57:34.240 You know,

00:57:34.420 why is that so wrong to be useful and beautiful?

00:57:37.140 And,

00:57:37.380 and he,

00:57:37.720 you know,

00:57:37.880 he's like,

00:57:38.540 and there are these minorities,

00:57:39.680 they don't really feel part of the nation.

00:57:41.380 And shouldn't we take care of the environmental world?

00:57:44.080 And so he is paternalistic and he's,

00:57:46.460 he's,

00:57:46.720 he's almost,

00:57:47.360 he's,

00:57:47.800 he is paternalistic towards minorities even,

00:57:50.100 but in,

00:57:51.000 in a way that,

00:57:51.700 you know,

00:57:51.820 I mean,

00:57:52.020 he's the King after all,

00:57:53.460 there are all these people living there.

00:57:55.280 Um,

00:57:55.620 you know,

00:57:55.920 he,

00:57:56.500 it's,

00:57:56.640 it's,

00:57:57.220 it's not,

00:57:57.720 it's not too surprising to think that he would be like that.

00:58:00.300 And,

00:58:00.760 and,

00:58:01.120 and,

00:58:01.420 and Francis Urquhart is able to beat him by playing the political game,

00:58:05.880 uh,

00:58:06.520 better than the King.

00:58:07.980 Uh,

00:58:08.340 but in a way the,

00:58:09.820 the King,

00:58:10.700 even in his naivete and,

00:58:12.560 and,

00:58:13.260 and,

00:58:13.500 and bleeding heartness towards minorities,

00:58:16.080 like actually is a real nationalist.

00:58:18.440 He,

00:58:18.560 he is whom the King,

00:58:19.480 you,

00:58:20.360 you would hope the King to be.

00:58:21.700 And Francis Urquhart ultimately rules by winning 40% of the population.

00:58:27.580 I mean,

00:58:27.980 he,

00:58:28.160 he ultimately rules by winning over the middle class and the upper middle class by talking about,

00:58:33.560 you know,

00:58:33.800 hard work and capitalism.

00:58:35.980 And,

00:58:36.660 you know,

00:58:37.340 I,

00:58:37.540 I,

00:58:37.780 I think,

00:58:38.260 you know,

00:58:38.720 it's,

00:58:39.340 it,

00:58:39.720 so in a way like there,

00:58:40.720 there's this almost like shallowness to Urquhart,

00:58:43.600 um,

00:58:44.000 where he,

00:58:44.800 he really isn't like,

00:58:46.320 he,

00:58:46.560 he,

00:58:46.620 he isn't the man of Britain.

00:58:48.200 I mean,

00:58:48.420 he,

00:58:48.580 he isn't this man who's connected with centuries of history.

00:58:51.980 Um,

00:58:52.300 he's,

00:58:52.620 he's kind of like,

00:58:54.000 you know,

00:58:54.380 uh,

00:58:54.680 dividing up the population in some way and saying things that appeal to them so that he can win.

00:58:59.500 And,

00:59:00.080 uh,

00:59:00.380 I,

00:59:00.540 I think in,

00:59:01.260 you know,

00:59:01.520 the,

00:59:01.820 the King in a way represents something that,

00:59:05.760 you know,

00:59:06.240 to get back to the,

00:59:07.000 the public works and stuff,

00:59:07.980 it represents something that we kind of all want and feel.

00:59:11.260 And that is a,

00:59:12.680 you know,

00:59:13.000 I don't know,

00:59:13.620 uh,

00:59:13.800 an environmentally friendly,

00:59:15.820 uh,

00:59:17.800 uh,

00:59:18.280 socialist,

00:59:19.400 uh,

00:59:19.720 fascism.

00:59:21.740 And,

00:59:22.320 um,

00:59:22.680 is that your running platform?

00:59:25.160 I think,

00:59:26.040 you know,

00:59:27.060 I,

00:59:27.240 I think you could,

00:59:28.080 uh,

00:59:28.240 you know,

00:59:28.460 peel to a broad base there.

00:59:31.520 Environmentally friendly,

00:59:32.360 uh,

00:59:34.280 gluten-free,

00:59:35.480 gluten-free fascism.

00:59:37.520 I mean,

00:59:37.680 that's just what we're into.

00:59:39.360 Yes.

00:59:41.260 Um,

00:59:44.740 but,

00:59:45.460 uh,

00:59:45.700 anyway,

00:59:46.160 I,

00:59:46.420 I've probably talked too long myself.

00:59:48.220 Um,

00:59:49.200 what are there,

00:59:50.280 what are some other little aspects of this whole world that we haven't touched on yet?

00:59:57.200 Well,

00:59:57.900 there's so many sordid murders.

01:00:00.100 Oh yeah.

01:00:00.540 Let's talk about this.

01:00:02.040 Uh,

01:00:02.420 you know,

01:00:02.640 I mean,

01:00:02.840 that,

01:00:03.000 that was a,

01:00:03.520 that's a big driving plot element is,

01:00:05.200 is political secrets.

01:00:06.780 Yeah.

01:00:07.320 And,

01:00:07.640 and in that way,

01:00:08.420 I mean,

01:00:08.760 uh,

01:00:08.960 I think,

01:00:09.420 uh,

01:00:10.080 you know,

01:00:10.400 at some point we,

01:00:11.020 we might've mentioned,

01:00:12.700 uh,

01:00:13.840 you know,

01:00:14.920 you know,

01:00:15.740 the theatricality of murders and,

01:00:17.440 and,

01:00:17.760 uh,

01:00:18.120 these are,

01:00:18.780 these are,

01:00:19.280 these are rather sordid in a way that I think that they would be,

01:00:22.180 uh,

01:00:23.300 you know,

01:00:23.760 they're,

01:00:24.100 they're over,

01:00:24.660 you know,

01:00:26.340 petty little human things,

01:00:28.640 you know,

01:00:29.320 uh,

01:00:30.100 little sex,

01:00:31.020 sex affairs and,

01:00:32.280 and so forth that get out of hand and,

01:00:35.200 uh,

01:00:35.280 that just need to be covered up because they could be too politically damaging.

01:00:38.680 Yeah.

01:00:38.900 Well,

01:00:39.120 they could bring down the government.

01:00:40.780 I mean,

01:00:40.940 I think that's,

01:00:42.100 they're small and big at the same time.

01:00:44.420 Yeah.

01:00:44.900 Yeah.

01:00:45.160 Yeah.

01:00:45.440 Yeah.

01:00:46.180 Yeah.

01:00:46.560 They just put,

01:00:47.180 call everyone's credibility into question.

01:00:48.800 And yet we all kind of secretly,

01:00:50.280 you know,

01:00:51.480 assume that all of that stuff is going on all the time.

01:00:54.840 Yeah.

01:00:55.160 And that's,

01:00:55.940 I think one of the things reason why the,

01:00:58.360 as you said that the show,

01:00:59.640 the cynical nature of the show,

01:01:01.100 I think makes it ring fairly true.

01:01:04.300 I mean,

01:01:04.680 when I watch it,

01:01:05.360 I'm just assuming that that's actually the way Washington works,

01:01:08.320 you know,

01:01:09.100 that,

01:01:09.740 uh,

01:01:09.920 you know,

01:01:10.080 it's all people screwing each other over and,

01:01:12.500 uh,

01:01:12.680 covering things up and,

01:01:13.700 uh,

01:01:14.280 you know,

01:01:14.500 lying and,

01:01:15.160 you know,

01:01:15.620 doing whatever they have to get the money to do what they want to do.

01:01:17.900 Yeah.

01:01:18.620 Yeah.

01:01:19.280 Well,

01:01:19.620 just little things like the whole Petraeus affair that,

01:01:22.680 that was,

01:01:23.200 that was something that seemed to combine,

01:01:24.920 like really,

01:01:25.900 uh,

01:01:27.140 squalid matters,

01:01:28.400 like having some affair with the woman writing his,

01:01:31.940 God,

01:01:32.340 that,

01:01:32.500 that is just like a house of cards episode right there.

01:01:34.980 He's,

01:01:35.380 he's writing an affair with the woman writing his biography.

01:01:38.880 And,

01:01:39.440 but then,

01:01:40.900 uh,

01:01:41.520 he might've actually,

01:01:42.580 then they,

01:01:42.980 they decided,

01:01:43.660 his enemies decided to use that against him when he was about to say

01:01:47.060 something bad about Benghazi.

01:01:49.120 Um,

01:01:49.680 pretty interesting actually.

01:01:51.320 Um,

01:01:51.600 and it's been forgotten.

01:01:53.560 Yeah.

01:01:53.960 I mean,

01:01:54.380 nobody's talking about it anymore.

01:01:56.640 And,

01:01:57.360 uh,

01:01:58.400 and it's a bit like that,

01:02:00.480 uh,

01:02:00.940 that happens in house of cards.

01:02:02.880 One of the,

01:02:04.580 you know,

01:02:05.420 and it's made clear by the,

01:02:07.980 um,

01:02:08.800 you know,

01:02:09.240 the opening credits,

01:02:10.660 uh,

01:02:11.760 you have this,

01:02:12.940 it's looked like,

01:02:14.440 it looks like a kind of beehive,

01:02:16.520 uh,

01:02:17.500 you know,

01:02:17.860 you know,

01:02:17.880 living,

01:02:18.300 uh,

01:02:19.500 at every hour of the day and the night,

01:02:22.300 which,

01:02:22.840 uh,

01:02:23.360 with all these small insects,

01:02:25.540 um,

01:02:27.080 you know,

01:02:28.160 making all their schemes and moving all around.

01:02:32.060 And,

01:02:33.040 um,

01:02:33.500 every time in the series,

01:02:35.660 someone dies.

01:02:37.120 So,

01:02:37.720 you have maybe five minutes of emotion and then the show must go on.

01:02:43.320 And,

01:02:43.340 uh,

01:02:43.620 Zoe Barnes,

01:02:44.320 for example,

01:02:44.700 is completely forward.

01:02:46.100 And it's,

01:02:46.800 uh,

01:02:48.040 you know,

01:02:48.320 it's something that you can find in,

01:02:52.080 uh,

01:02:52.620 real politics today.

01:02:54.720 Uh,

01:02:55.080 you know,

01:02:55.500 I had forgotten this,

01:02:57.060 uh,

01:02:57.840 this case.

01:02:58.540 When was it?

01:02:59.480 Maybe two years ago or three years ago?

01:03:02.440 Yeah,

01:03:02.620 I think something,

01:03:03.260 I think it was two or three years ago.

01:03:04.440 Yeah.

01:03:04.840 With Petraeus.

01:03:06.040 I,

01:03:06.480 it was just such a made for house of cards scandal.

01:03:08.640 It's,

01:03:08.820 it's almost,

01:03:09.600 you know,

01:03:09.920 truth is,

01:03:10.660 uh,

01:03:11.740 stranger than fiction or something.

01:03:13.080 But,

01:03:13.500 um,

01:03:14.620 yeah,

01:03:15.240 yeah,

01:03:15.400 no,

01:03:15.720 it is.

01:03:16.220 I,

01:03:16.340 I am kind of curious about the death.

01:03:17.660 I,

01:03:17.800 I would say,

01:03:18.960 I would say this in the,

01:03:20.480 in the BBC house of cards,

01:03:22.460 the deaths are a little more,

01:03:25.600 uh,

01:03:26.720 fun for,

01:03:27.700 for lack of a better word.

01:03:28.920 They're kind of,

01:03:30.220 because the BBC is,

01:03:32.080 is the BBC version is a little more stylized,

01:03:34.920 a little more satirical.

01:03:37.240 And,

01:03:37.800 um,

01:03:38.300 and so they,

01:03:38.820 they have this,

01:03:39.400 this thing where I,

01:03:40.480 you know,

01:03:40.640 again,

01:03:41.600 spoiler alert,

01:03:42.480 but you know,

01:03:42.900 we've already done that.

01:03:43.720 But,

01:03:43.840 uh,

01:03:44.640 the,

01:03:45.000 the Zoe Barnes figure is names,

01:03:46.920 uh,

01:03:47.100 named Maddie Storen,

01:03:48.200 and she's confronting,

01:03:49.400 uh,

01:03:50.540 Francis Urquhart on the,

01:03:52.180 uh,

01:03:52.460 rooftop of parliament,

01:03:53.800 where he goes up to,

01:03:55.040 you know,

01:03:55.280 contemplate the world.

01:03:56.740 And,

01:03:57.260 um,

01:03:57.620 she's confronting him about the death of this other,

01:04:00.220 you know,

01:04:00.560 congressman,

01:04:01.220 very similar to the,

01:04:02.480 the American version.

01:04:04.040 And,

01:04:04.720 um,

01:04:05.640 and,

01:04:05.820 while they're having an affair,

01:04:07.740 she starts calling him daddy.

01:04:09.640 And so they're having this thing of,

01:04:11.740 you know,

01:04:12.080 where Urquhart says,

01:04:13.420 you know,

01:04:13.640 can I trust you?

01:04:14.800 And,

01:04:15.040 you know,

01:04:15.240 she's like,

01:04:15.560 oh yes.

01:04:16.140 Like she says,

01:04:16.760 you can trust me.

01:04:17.480 And then he says,

01:04:18.460 I'm not sure I can.

01:04:19.380 And he picks her up and throws her off parliament.

01:04:21.740 And she screams daddy as she falls.

01:04:24.860 It was really great.

01:04:26.240 Um,

01:04:26.680 and then,

01:04:28.780 you know,

01:04:29.140 there's another one where he's,

01:04:30.260 he,

01:04:30.540 his chief of staff,

01:04:31.660 who's the stamper,

01:04:32.660 uh,

01:04:33.420 he blows him up and blames it on the IRA.

01:04:37.040 They're just,

01:04:37.660 it's really,

01:04:38.300 it's quite,

01:04:39.080 uh,

01:04:39.680 there's just a kind of stylized kind of fun character to it all.

01:04:44.860 Actually,

01:04:45.340 you,

01:04:45.800 you have,

01:04:46.420 you have that in the American version because,

01:04:49.280 uh,

01:04:50.200 so he,

01:04:50.960 he goes down on her and,

01:04:52.600 and at the same time,

01:04:54.220 she's calling her a real dad.

01:04:56.680 Yeah.

01:04:57.180 And when she reaches orgasm at the same time,

01:05:01.620 she's saying,

01:05:02.400 uh,

01:05:03.080 happy father's day to her dad,

01:05:05.340 which is really,

01:05:07.280 which is really gross actually.

01:05:10.000 But yeah,

01:05:10.860 you know,

01:05:11.520 there's something,

01:05:12.400 um,

01:05:14.920 a deeper about,

01:05:16.400 uh,

01:05:17.280 the relationship between,

01:05:18.740 uh,

01:05:19.880 Underwood and Zoe Barnes.

01:05:21.780 No,

01:05:22.380 I mean,

01:05:22.600 I thought that scene was gross,

01:05:24.560 but,

01:05:24.760 but it was in a way appropriate.

01:05:26.680 I mean,

01:05:27.020 I,

01:05:27.360 that it definitely got at the heart of their relationship.

01:05:31.200 Uh,

01:05:31.640 I would just say about the murders themselves,

01:05:33.440 that they're a little more on the squalid side,

01:05:35.600 you know,

01:05:36.240 uh,

01:05:36.600 pushing her into a oncoming train.

01:05:39.400 And,

01:05:39.920 uh,

01:05:40.100 and then I,

01:05:40.720 particularly in the third season,

01:05:41.900 it was just depressing.

01:05:43.060 I mean,

01:05:43.380 there's this,

01:05:43.880 um,

01:05:44.680 you know,

01:05:44.900 one woman whom they,

01:05:46.120 a prostitute,

01:05:46.820 whom they used,

01:05:47.700 uh,

01:05:48.940 you know,

01:05:49.340 to,

01:05:49.720 to frame,

01:05:50.820 uh,

01:05:51.020 or to,

01:05:51.480 uh,

01:05:51.740 push,

01:05:52.240 um,

01:05:53.120 Peter Russo over the edge.

01:05:54.900 And,

01:05:55.420 uh,

01:05:56.000 and then they,

01:05:56.740 but she's a kind of loose end and,

01:05:58.240 uh,

01:05:59.000 Stamper seems to be in love with her in some way,

01:06:01.000 but they just,

01:06:01.980 you know,

01:06:02.460 run her down and bury her.

01:06:04.280 I don't know.

01:06:04.840 It struck me as kind of,

01:06:06.540 um,

01:06:07.760 hard to not to feel sorry for that woman.

01:06:10.480 And,

01:06:10.980 uh,

01:06:11.640 a different tone.

01:06:13.960 Um,

01:06:14.860 you know,

01:06:15.240 I,

01:06:15.360 I almost would,

01:06:16.300 I almost like the,

01:06:18.100 I almost like being a little stylized and,

01:06:20.500 and,

01:06:21.220 uh,

01:06:21.680 kind of,

01:06:22.380 you know,

01:06:22.800 reveling in the murder of your enemies.

01:06:24.900 I think that's kind of,

01:06:26.040 it's more fun than to actually like,

01:06:28.140 oh,

01:06:28.420 wow,

01:06:28.740 you just killed a former prostitute,

01:06:30.920 you know?

01:06:33.320 Jeez.

01:06:36.720 Uh,

01:06:37.040 uh,

01:06:37.560 you know,

01:06:38.000 that it's kind of depressed after watching that scene.

01:06:41.520 Anyway,

01:06:41.960 maybe I'm just,

01:06:43.360 I'm just a soft hearted guy.

01:06:44.920 It's what they always say.

01:06:46.660 I'm always criticized for that.

01:06:48.940 you know,

01:06:50.120 I've heard that.

01:06:52.780 Um,

01:06:53.560 but,

01:06:54.300 uh,

01:06:55.660 any,

01:06:56.160 anyway,

01:06:56.540 what,

01:06:56.780 anything else,

01:06:57.560 uh,

01:06:57.960 Romain?

01:06:59.220 Well,

01:07:00.000 it was a time when you were,

01:07:02.040 uh,

01:07:02.860 bringing the bookmark session,

01:07:05.280 but,

01:07:05.500 uh,

01:07:06.560 no,

01:07:06.840 it's just,

01:07:07.980 actually it's related to,

01:07:09.620 uh,

01:07:09.820 this,

01:07:11.060 um,

01:07:11.960 you know,

01:07:13.320 this,

01:07:13.920 you are entitled to nothing.

01:07:15.380 Uh,

01:07:16.220 it's related in a way.

01:07:17.560 It's the superiority of,

01:07:19.420 uh,

01:07:19.880 political power of a financial power.

01:07:22.640 And it's,

01:07:23.780 uh,

01:07:24.060 really interesting that,

01:07:25.320 uh,

01:07:25.800 this theme is,

01:07:26.800 is present in the whole series.

01:07:29.420 of course,

01:07:30.500 of course,

01:07:30.520 it doesn't mean that money is not important,

01:07:32.840 especially in politics,

01:07:34.300 when you have to run for campaign and,

01:07:36.480 and you have to bribe people.

01:07:38.220 But,

01:07:38.600 um,

01:07:40.460 you know,

01:07:40.880 there's this scene in the second season when he says,

01:07:44.580 uh,

01:07:45.320 um,

01:07:45.740 to Raymond does this big CEO of,

01:07:48.780 uh,

01:07:49.080 I don't remember what,

01:07:50.320 maybe,

01:07:50.600 uh,

01:07:51.500 electric power plants,

01:07:53.180 something like that.

01:07:53.960 And,

01:07:54.300 um,

01:07:55.080 says,

01:07:55.380 you may have all the money Raymond,

01:07:57.220 but I have all the guys with guns.

01:07:59.960 And,

01:08:00.860 you know,

01:08:01.340 um,

01:08:02.820 it's something that might sound obvious for,

01:08:07.880 uh,

01:08:08.740 you know,

01:08:09.000 people with a political background,

01:08:12.900 um,

01:08:14.140 and people who read and write about politics,

01:08:16.740 but for most people,

01:08:18.240 everything is about money today.

01:08:20.240 Yeah.

01:08:20.660 And,

01:08:21.120 uh,

01:08:21.460 it,

01:08:21.760 it was interesting that,

01:08:23.020 uh,

01:08:24.280 this series is,

01:08:25.460 uh,

01:08:25.860 bringing the fact that,

01:08:27.200 uh,

01:08:28.040 eventually,

01:08:28.620 Apple might have a GDP,

01:08:31.860 uh,

01:08:31.960 might have,

01:08:32.520 um,

01:08:33.020 you know,

01:08:33.980 a gross product bigger than many countries,

01:08:37.080 but,

01:08:37.520 uh,

01:08:38.360 countries have,

01:08:39.460 uh,

01:08:40.660 a police force.

01:08:41.720 They have an army.

01:08:43.480 And,

01:08:43.780 uh,

01:08:44.200 if they want to seize property,

01:08:46.120 they can,

01:08:46.800 which,

01:08:47.200 uh,

01:08:47.420 a private company can't.

01:08:49.440 Yeah.

01:08:49.620 So,

01:08:50.520 eventually the state has the ultimate power of,

01:08:54.680 uh,

01:08:55.120 you know,

01:08:55.640 constraining people.

01:08:56.760 So,

01:08:57.000 it was maybe a Schmittian,

01:08:58.620 element.

01:08:59.940 And,

01:09:00.300 uh,

01:09:00.600 the second quote,

01:09:01.840 you brought it before we recorded and you improved on it.

01:09:05.800 So,

01:09:06.240 maybe you can,

01:09:07.380 uh,

01:09:08.820 give your own version about,

01:09:10.780 uh,

01:09:11.520 the McMansion.

01:09:13.020 Oh,

01:09:13.620 yes.

01:09:13.720 No.

01:09:15.400 Money is a McMansion in the suburbs that will,

01:09:18.560 uh,

01:09:19.180 be foreclosed upon after your Ponzi screen dries up.

01:09:22.920 But power is owning a castle that will be here a hundred,

01:09:26.400 two hundred years in the future.

01:09:28.460 Um,

01:09:28.660 the actual quote was,

01:09:30.260 I think that's what I said,

01:09:31.380 such a waste of talent.

01:09:32.460 He's talking about Remy Denton.

01:09:33.740 He chose money over power.

01:09:35.720 In this town,

01:09:36.540 a mistake nearly everyone makes.

01:09:38.760 That's,

01:09:39.220 in itself,

01:09:39.980 very interesting.

01:09:41.520 That,

01:09:41.720 in a way,

01:09:42.080 that's how he plays the game,

01:09:43.680 is,

01:09:43.880 is people want security and money.

01:09:46.180 And,

01:09:46.680 he wants power.

01:09:49.320 Money is the McMansion in Sarasota.

01:09:51.740 uh,

01:09:52.700 I apologize to all of our Florida listeners.

01:09:54.980 Uh,

01:09:55.240 money is the McMansion in Sarasota that starts falling apart after 10 years.

01:09:59.780 Power is the old stone building that stands for centuries.

01:10:03.020 I cannot respect someone who doesn't see the difference.

01:10:06.440 Yeah,

01:10:06.780 I mean,

01:10:07.040 it's,

01:10:07.380 it's a kind of Kyle Schmidt for dummies in a way.

01:10:10.280 I mean,

01:10:10.520 and it's completely true.

01:10:13.360 Um,

01:10:14.320 yeah.

01:10:15.700 Um,

01:10:16.420 I,

01:10:16.840 I think there's,

01:10:17.740 there is though,

01:10:18.860 um,

01:10:20.100 I,

01:10:20.380 I think something else.

01:10:21.400 I mean,

01:10:21.680 I,

01:10:21.840 I think,

01:10:22.320 I think without question,

01:10:23.640 what this series is show,

01:10:25.060 what this series teaches you,

01:10:26.940 and is that power is,

01:10:30.120 power trumps money.

01:10:31.360 I mean,

01:10:31.520 I think you've said this before,

01:10:32.620 Ramal,

01:10:32.860 it's kind of like the powerful,

01:10:34.900 they'll find money when they need it.

01:10:37.360 Um,

01:10:37.740 but money in itself doesn't necessarily make you powerful.

01:10:42.320 You know,

01:10:43.220 the,

01:10:43.380 the,

01:10:43.780 it's more,

01:10:44.860 uh,

01:10:45.760 it's when we talked about,

01:10:47.180 uh,

01:10:48.380 uh,

01:10:48.640 eyes wide shut actually.

01:10:49.680 Yeah.

01:10:50.080 because the powerful are,

01:10:53.020 are rich,

01:10:54.300 of course,

01:10:54.700 because,

01:10:55.220 but it's an expression of their power.

01:10:57.960 Yeah.

01:10:58.900 Their money is not the source of their power.

01:11:01.360 And,

01:11:01.500 uh,

01:11:02.580 many people,

01:11:03.540 um,

01:11:04.900 you know,

01:11:05.180 they,

01:11:05.360 they see it's the wrong way.

01:11:06.940 The thing that you have to amass a lot of money and then you're powerful.

01:11:10.320 But,

01:11:11.740 um,

01:11:12.840 when I was,

01:11:14.040 I hate to say that,

01:11:15.900 but I used to be a,

01:11:17.840 a kind of libertarian activist at some point,

01:11:21.800 maybe three years ago.

01:11:23.160 And I was working for,

01:11:25.300 um,

01:11:26.060 a guy,

01:11:26.660 a French guy,

01:11:27.800 but was working Hong Kong and actually heading a hedge fund.

01:11:32.960 And he was actually a billionaire.

01:11:36.300 So I,

01:11:36.900 it's the only time I,

01:11:38.100 I had a close relationship with a billionaire.

01:11:42.100 He was my employer.

01:11:44.440 And,

01:11:45.080 uh,

01:11:46.180 the tragedy of his life was that when he went back to Paris,

01:11:49.900 nobody knew him.

01:11:50.840 And he had no influence on anyone.

01:11:55.660 And,

01:11:55.980 uh,

01:11:56.300 actually he wanted me to be this kind of editor in chief to,

01:12:01.300 uh,

01:12:03.180 kind of,

01:12:04.360 uh,

01:12:04.660 make his great ideas,

01:12:06.920 which weren't great,

01:12:08.020 actually,

01:12:08.760 uh,

01:12:09.260 known to the world because nobody cared about him.

01:12:12.300 The politicians,

01:12:13.260 the journalists,

01:12:14.260 uh,

01:12:15.120 uh,

01:12:15.400 nobody was paying any attention to him.

01:12:18.120 Even if he had a billion euros,

01:12:20.840 on his bank account.

01:12:22.640 So,

01:12:23.620 um,

01:12:24.300 so I could witness that firsthand.

01:12:26.740 And I'm glad to see that,

01:12:28.340 um,

01:12:29.740 a popular show,

01:12:30.940 uh,

01:12:31.700 tackles the issue because in the show you have Raymond Tusk,

01:12:36.060 eventually is broken and Underwood is triumphant.

01:12:39.940 So,

01:12:40.140 uh,

01:12:41.320 I mean,

01:12:42.140 it's not only a fantasy,

01:12:43.540 it's something real.

01:12:44.620 Yeah,

01:12:45.280 I,

01:12:45.580 I think it is real.

01:12:46.400 I mean,

01:12:46.600 I,

01:12:46.840 the,

01:12:47.540 the,

01:12:47.960 the people who quest only after money and security,

01:12:50.840 um,

01:12:52.120 they,

01:12:52.800 these people are in a way powerless.

01:12:55.420 I mean,

01:12:55.640 it's,

01:12:56.000 it's,

01:12:56.640 it's the other people who risk things.

01:12:58.860 I mean,

01:12:59.300 they'll,

01:12:59.880 they'll find the money when they need it,

01:13:01.420 you know,

01:13:02.360 um,

01:13:02.680 to do their,

01:13:03.580 to pursue their goals.

01:13:04.720 Yeah.

01:13:06.080 Um,

01:13:06.440 but you know,

01:13:07.160 the people whose life goals to have,

01:13:09.280 uh,

01:13:10.040 two car garage in Sarasota,

01:13:12.380 I mean,

01:13:12.760 it's,

01:13:13.400 it's those who are,

01:13:14.420 who are the,

01:13:14.880 the tools.

01:13:16.420 And the fridge that makes ice cubes.

01:13:20.060 Well,

01:13:20.600 that is an end in itself,

01:13:21.800 but that you can actually,

01:13:27.120 they'll now have like coffee on there too.

01:13:29.220 Like you'll put in this horrible,

01:13:30.680 uh,

01:13:31.900 like preserved coffee cup thing and your fridge will like make coffee for you.

01:13:37.980 You know,

01:13:38.620 it's,

01:13:39.040 we've really reached new levels of last manness in this country.

01:13:42.920 Uh,

01:13:43.940 anyway,

01:13:45.120 uh,

01:13:46.100 I would say though,

01:13:47.080 the,

01:13:47.200 the,

01:13:47.480 the ultimate tragedy of,

01:13:49.040 uh,

01:13:49.940 Francis,

01:13:51.180 uh,

01:13:51.680 particularly Francis Urquhart is that there,

01:13:55.240 there,

01:13:55.560 he is kind of playing the game and he's playing with power.

01:13:58.960 Uh,

01:13:59.460 but he doesn't know for what really.

01:14:02.820 I mean,

01:14:03.180 you know,

01:14:03.640 and,

01:14:03.800 and I guess this is a little bit different between the British and the American version because Francis Urquhart is this man of privilege.

01:14:09.520 He actually says something and he's like,

01:14:11.360 oh,

01:14:11.720 privilege just carries responsibility.

01:14:14.080 You know,

01:14:14.240 he,

01:14:14.580 he,

01:14:15.180 you know,

01:14:15.500 he knows who he is and he knows where he's coming from.

01:14:18.740 And,

01:14:19.260 uh,

01:14:20.100 and,

01:14:20.380 and he has these values.

01:14:21.600 I mean,

01:14:21.740 another point he says that he's part of centuries of the British people.

01:14:25.560 He understands the British people,

01:14:27.040 which,

01:14:27.240 because he understands who they are as a proud nation stretching back centuries.

01:14:31.520 And,

01:14:32.000 um,

01:14:32.400 but there's this,

01:14:33.220 you know,

01:14:33.380 at the end of the day,

01:14:34.280 even Francis Urquhart ultimately loses.

01:14:37.560 I mean,

01:14:38.040 at the,

01:14:38.520 at the end of the British version,

01:14:39.840 he's dead and he's,

01:14:41.460 he's become a tool himself.

01:14:44.140 Um,

01:14:44.800 but,

01:14:45.580 but beyond that,

01:14:46.840 he,

01:14:47.120 he never,

01:14:47.740 you know,

01:14:48.380 he,

01:14:49.000 he leaves office in 1996 or something.

01:14:52.340 And,

01:14:52.980 uh,

01:14:53.660 Britain is becoming the multi-culti,

01:14:56.940 uh,

01:14:57.460 you know,

01:14:57.920 liberal cool Britannia anyway.

01:14:59.720 I mean,

01:15:00.360 he,

01:15:00.500 he ultimately didn't have any effect on his society.

01:15:03.440 He,

01:15:04.080 he was able to destroy his enemies and he was able to play the game,

01:15:08.360 but for really what purpose?

01:15:10.920 And,

01:15:11.540 and I,

01:15:11.860 I think Francis,

01:15:12.840 you know,

01:15:13.500 Francis Underwood is,

01:15:14.600 is,

01:15:14.920 is like this,

01:15:15.600 although,

01:15:15.920 you know,

01:15:16.500 to,

01:15:16.700 to maybe a lesser degree.

01:15:18.600 I mean,

01:15:18.800 he won't leave a legacy,

01:15:20.880 a biological one.

01:15:23.060 He won't have children,

01:15:24.500 which,

01:15:25.060 which is significant,

01:15:26.240 symbolic.

01:15:26.880 Yes.

01:15:27.320 Yeah.

01:15:28.040 And,

01:15:28.560 um,

01:15:29.260 you know,

01:15:29.500 because the problem with,

01:15:31.400 uh,

01:15:31.580 when he criticizes,

01:15:32.760 uh,

01:15:33.860 Remy Danton,

01:15:34.900 actually it's a Haitian name because Danton,

01:15:38.100 you know,

01:15:38.380 was a French revolutionary.

01:15:40.940 So it's funny to have a Haitian,

01:15:43.420 um,

01:15:43.920 at the white house.

01:15:45.560 Uh,

01:15:45.880 anyway,

01:15:46.520 um,

01:15:48.560 so it's the second part that is wrong when he says,

01:15:52.380 uh,

01:15:53.040 not that it is wrong in itself,

01:15:55.340 but when he says power is the old stone building that stands for centuries,

01:15:59.160 but does he really think that becoming the president of the president of the U S now will really make him known in one century?

01:16:09.140 I mean,

01:16:10.040 who will remember Bill Clinton in a hundred years?

01:16:14.860 Yeah.

01:16:16.260 Really?

01:16:17.420 Most people have forgotten him now.

01:16:20.660 And maybe if,

01:16:22.060 uh,

01:16:22.480 his wife wasn't around,

01:16:24.360 people wouldn't even think about it,

01:16:26.740 about him.

01:16:28.040 And,

01:16:28.340 um,

01:16:28.720 and so he,

01:16:30.560 Underwood's inventory is wrong about that because in the democratic system,

01:16:36.960 he wants,

01:16:38.360 he won't make history.

01:16:39.940 Uh,

01:16:40.880 he won't be remembered.

01:16:42.380 He will just be a name on a,

01:16:44.540 you know,

01:16:46.320 a gravestone somewhere.

01:16:48.780 Yeah.

01:16:49.540 I mean,

01:16:49.940 at a memorial maybe,

01:16:51.360 but not more.

01:16:52.620 Yeah.

01:16:52.800 I mean,

01:16:53.060 genetics is the ultimate legacy and that's what the,

01:16:56.600 the Francis's symbolically lacks lack.

01:16:59.180 I mean,

01:16:59.340 that's the ultimate stone building that lasts forever.

01:17:03.820 Um,

01:17:04.640 yeah,

01:17:04.980 no,

01:17:05.160 I,

01:17:05.300 I think it's,

01:17:05.800 it's worth for,

01:17:06.580 you know,

01:17:06.940 for us to think about in the sense of,

01:17:08.840 uh,

01:17:09.620 uh,

01:17:10.440 for,

01:17:10.900 for anyone of,

01:17:11.980 of our worldview to enter politics or,

01:17:15.840 or these things like that.

01:17:17.580 Um,

01:17:18.420 you know,

01:17:18.900 it,

01:17:19.220 it's all fine and good,

01:17:20.260 but you,

01:17:20.760 you have to be playing the game for a reason and mere power isn't enough.

01:17:27.600 Uh,

01:17:28.140 because there,

01:17:28.840 there limits,

01:17:29.560 Steven,

01:17:29.920 the,

01:17:30.180 you know,

01:17:30.440 there,

01:17:30.640 there are actually major limits to the influence of presidents.

01:17:34.420 I,

01:17:34.780 I think politicians in,

01:17:36.060 in their own way are really lagging indicators of society.

01:17:40.380 Absolutely.

01:17:41.340 And like real lagging indicators like decades.

01:17:44.300 I mean,

01:17:44.620 I don't,

01:17:45.140 I think it's ridiculous for someone to think that like Nancy Pelosi and Barack Obama invented gay marriage or something.

01:17:50.540 I mean,

01:17:51.200 they're in,

01:17:52.360 in 2011,

01:17:53.740 you know,

01:17:53.900 I mean,

01:17:54.140 they're coming like that,

01:17:55.340 that was something that people got that ball rolling like 30 years ago.

01:17:59.520 And it's now like P and people thought they were insane and that,

01:18:03.340 you know,

01:18:03.540 suggesting the notion,

01:18:05.060 you know,

01:18:05.360 30 years ago.

01:18:05.980 So,

01:18:06.160 I mean,

01:18:06.360 it's,

01:18:07.140 you know,

01:18:07.560 these,

01:18:08.020 and then these politicians come later and they're like,

01:18:10.040 okay,

01:18:10.380 we'll enact it.

01:18:11.280 Well,

01:18:11.520 that,

01:18:11.700 that took,

01:18:12.620 you know,

01:18:13.060 decades of intellectual,

01:18:15.440 cultural,

01:18:16.460 ideological work.

01:18:18.220 And,

01:18:18.720 you know,

01:18:18.940 I think Republicans are almost even worse because they're like,

01:18:21.700 they defend like the liberalism,

01:18:24.000 the old time liberalism.

01:18:26.020 Give me more of that old time liberalism.

01:18:28.260 Like what we had in 1987,

01:18:30.800 you know,

01:18:31.480 it's,

01:18:32.100 it's,

01:18:32.880 you know,

01:18:33.440 they're,

01:18:33.640 they're pathetic.

01:18:34.640 Um,

01:18:35.940 so,

01:18:36.660 you know,

01:18:37.120 I,

01:18:37.260 I think in a way there,

01:18:38.280 there are things that are much more powerful than,

01:18:40.460 than politicians.

01:18:41.360 And if,

01:18:42.300 if anyone of our worldview is going to go play the game,

01:18:44.840 I think we should think about that.

01:18:46.240 You know,

01:18:46.460 I mean,

01:18:46.680 it's,

01:18:47.500 uh,

01:18:47.940 do you,

01:18:48.720 that's great if you're a really good chess player,

01:18:50.960 but,

01:18:51.760 you know,

01:18:52.140 what,

01:18:52.500 what are we playing for?

01:18:54.960 You know,

01:18:55.520 that's the question.

01:18:56.460 It's not just about having someone with our views in power.

01:19:00.240 Uh,

01:19:00.660 you know,

01:19:01.760 I mean,

01:19:02.400 because eventually they will lose their views.

01:19:04.880 Yeah.

01:19:06.140 And,

01:19:06.700 uh,

01:19:06.900 Ron Paul,

01:19:07.680 Ron Paul is a good example of that.

01:19:09.720 Uh,

01:19:10.080 I mean,

01:19:10.640 he was a paleo libertarian,

01:19:14.080 so he was not completely interesting,

01:19:16.500 but,

01:19:17.080 uh,

01:19:18.820 you know,

01:19:19.300 when there was this,

01:19:20.340 uh,

01:19:20.620 huge controversy that goes back,

01:19:23.540 uh,

01:19:23.720 that,

01:19:24.220 um,

01:19:24.620 repeats every four years about his,

01:19:27.480 um,

01:19:28.180 LA newsletter in 92.

01:19:31.740 Uh,

01:19:32.100 I mean,

01:19:33.100 it was something that,

01:19:34.640 that could have been published in American Renaissance at that time.

01:19:38.260 Sure.

01:19:38.760 And,

01:19:39.280 uh,

01:19:39.680 and in 2008 and even worse in 2012,

01:19:43.700 he was saying how Rosa Parks was his hero.

01:19:49.480 Oh,

01:19:50.280 you know,

01:19:51.600 and it's not only old age and Alzheimer's that makes that.

01:19:56.060 It's just,

01:19:57.140 it just had to adapt to the system.

01:19:59.600 And so eventually,

01:20:03.060 uh,

01:20:04.080 you can,

01:20:05.100 you can make your way into the system,

01:20:08.040 but you don't have anything to bring with you.

01:20:10.320 So it's useless.

01:20:12.020 Yeah.

01:20:12.660 Yeah.

01:20:13.040 And,

01:20:13.520 uh,

01:20:13.940 and many,

01:20:15.800 because when you're a dissident and you,

01:20:18.920 you feel your power,

01:20:20.380 sometimes you can,

01:20:21.660 uh,

01:20:23.020 you know,

01:20:23.440 consider the fact that you might,

01:20:26.120 uh,

01:20:26.940 erase your name on nasty websites and then go to the nearest,

01:20:31.880 uh,

01:20:32.960 right wing party that can be in your country.

01:20:36.680 But,

01:20:37.560 uh,

01:20:38.640 I know I wouldn't do it.

01:20:40.460 Uh,

01:20:42.060 not because I don't want power,

01:20:44.040 but because I,

01:20:45.740 you know,

01:20:46.060 there are so many examples of very clever and brave guys who ended like,

01:20:53.380 uh,

01:20:53.620 so there was Jack Hunter,

01:20:54.860 but to take American examples,

01:20:57.440 but,

01:20:57.620 uh,

01:20:58.360 Ron Paul is a good one too.

01:21:00.780 Um,

01:21:02.900 uh,

01:21:03.440 yeah,

01:21:03.900 yeah,

01:21:04.200 no,

01:21:04.480 I,

01:21:04.680 I mean,

01:21:04.860 there's just,

01:21:05.420 this is kind of pointlessness.

01:21:06.680 I mean,

01:21:07.200 there,

01:21:07.480 there's someone above the game and,

01:21:10.660 well,

01:21:13.020 you know,

01:21:13.360 who am I referring to?

01:21:14.220 The Illuminati.

01:21:16.680 The lizards.

01:21:17.740 The lizard people.

01:21:18.640 The reptilians.

01:21:19.020 Yes,

01:21:19.180 absolutely.

01:21:20.220 Uh,

01:21:22.660 and in a way,

01:21:23.660 these lizards,

01:21:24.580 uh,

01:21:25.100 want us to play the game,

01:21:26.400 you know?

01:21:26.680 I mean,

01:21:27.100 they,

01:21:28.100 they want us to be fascinated with smearing or,

01:21:31.680 oh,

01:21:31.960 let's go smear that liberal.

01:21:34.360 Oh,

01:21:34.420 they,

01:21:34.660 they want us to be obsessed with ultimately useless nonsense like that.

01:21:41.220 Um,

01:21:42.720 anyway,

01:21:43.480 should we,

01:21:44.220 uh,

01:21:44.320 put a bookmark in it?

01:21:46.100 Sure.

01:21:47.220 Uh,

01:21:47.640 you know,

01:21:48.320 I,

01:21:48.640 one thing just,

01:21:49.460 I wanted to add,

01:21:50.000 and I think this is actually good in the,

01:21:52.620 to,

01:21:52.840 to wrap up.

01:21:53.560 And you talked about the kind of the impotence of politicians and,

01:21:58.680 uh,

01:21:59.180 the impotence of like even the president at this point and the cynicism of the series itself.

01:22:05.620 Uh,

01:22:06.020 although,

01:22:06.560 you know,

01:22:06.880 one,

01:22:07.800 you shouldn't read,

01:22:09.060 say that it's a sign of the times necessarily,

01:22:11.040 but,

01:22:12.320 uh,

01:22:12.600 you know,

01:22:12.860 in many ways,

01:22:13.560 I think it,

01:22:14.060 you know,

01:22:14.220 it does reflect the cynicism that I think most Americans have,

01:22:17.900 you know,

01:22:18.820 in the post Obama age,

01:22:20.760 you know,

01:22:21.700 and the idea that,

01:22:22.980 you know,

01:22:23.220 you can vote in a big savior that's going to go fix everything and then it doesn't happen.

01:22:27.100 And,

01:22:29.200 uh,

01:22:29.540 you know,

01:22:29.840 so I think that the cynical show about politics,

01:22:33.500 you know,

01:22:35.060 uh,

01:22:35.740 just kind of shows,

01:22:36.800 I think how people feel in many ways.

01:22:41.280 Yeah.

01:22:41.780 I mean,

01:22:42.040 isn't denials and that the first step towards recovery or I guess,

01:22:45.460 um,

01:22:45.860 it,

01:22:46.140 uh,

01:22:46.360 not non-denial.

01:22:48.680 I was like,

01:22:49.440 I don't think so.

01:22:51.380 No,

01:22:51.820 you haven't been going to my alcoholic.

01:22:53.800 I'm like,

01:22:54.640 that's a different 12 step.

01:22:56.000 Step one,

01:22:56.820 denial.

01:22:58.440 Denial.

01:22:59.120 Step two,

01:22:59.680 acceptance of your denial.

01:23:01.660 Yeah.

01:23:01.780 Yeah.

01:23:01.960 What is that?

01:23:02.360 The Saul Alinsky,

01:23:03.400 Alinsky's 12 step program.

01:23:07.520 No,

01:23:08.080 I mean,

01:23:08.360 it's,

01:23:08.620 it's,

01:23:09.060 uh,

01:23:09.320 you know,

01:23:10.000 in a way like a show like this does come in a particular like social mood,

01:23:14.220 so to speak.

01:23:15.060 And,

01:23:15.940 uh,

01:23:16.240 yeah,

01:23:16.520 I,

01:23:16.720 I think that's,

01:23:17.660 that's kind of part of like moving to something higher is to recognize,

01:23:23.060 something for what it is,

01:23:25.480 you know,

01:23:26.420 and not to be like,

01:23:27.900 Oh,

01:23:28.080 if we only elect this like magical Negro character who,

01:23:32.140 you know,

01:23:32.340 Whoa,

01:23:32.520 Whoa,

01:23:32.860 he's going to make everything go away.

01:23:34.540 Everything bad is going to go away.

01:23:35.900 And everything,

01:23:36.360 you know,

01:23:36.900 um,

01:23:37.300 I think a lot of it,

01:23:38.720 you know,

01:23:39.000 maybe being cynical,

01:23:40.100 it's the first step towards something higher.

01:23:43.340 Um,

01:23:43.820 I think it probably was for us,

01:23:45.680 you know,

01:23:46.000 I,

01:23:46.140 I think becoming like massively cynical about America and American politics is kind of a

01:23:51.360 first step.

01:23:52.080 Yeah.

01:23:52.520 That's how we've become something higher.

01:23:54.200 Yeah.

01:23:54.740 So we tell ourselves exactly.

01:23:57.160 Exactly.

01:23:58.360 All right.

01:23:59.040 Well,

01:23:59.400 let's do that.

01:24:00.100 Let's just put a bookmark in and,

01:24:01.320 and,

01:24:01.820 um,

01:24:02.600 uh,

01:24:02.860 hopefully we can return to some,

01:24:04.220 um,

01:24:05.000 fun things like this in the future.

01:24:06.660 But,

01:24:06.980 uh,

01:24:07.180 anyway,

01:24:07.660 Jack and Romain,

01:24:08.660 thank you both.

01:24:10.020 Thank you.

01:24:11.360 Thanks.

01:24:11.800 Thanks.

RadixJournal - March 24, 2015

To Play the King

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