In this episode of the podcast, John McWhorter sits down with Richard Dawkins to discuss his recent exile from a prestigious college, and why he thinks it's a good thing that blacks don't care that much about what white people think.
00:00:17.740Well, I read something about your being expelled from a university and lots of social justice warrior hand-wringing and angst and probably screeching and hair-pulling.
00:00:35.800Yes. Yes. Here's what happened in brief.
00:00:39.440I was invited by a student group at Williams College, which I'd never heard of it. I'm not really up on the American college rankings.
00:00:57.860Up there in the top left-hand corner of Massachusetts.
00:01:01.020And I had some exchanges with them, and they agreed that I was going to come and give them a talk on Monday this week, the day before yesterday.
00:01:18.020Who is they? Because I was very curious. I did a little research before our conversation, but it seemed like there was a group called Uncomfortable Learning.
00:01:28.140Uncomfortable Learning. That was the group, yes.
00:01:31.400Yeah, so it was a student group that invited you, which shows some balls on their part.
00:01:38.140Yes, it does. And in fact, one of the Uncomfortable Learning movers and shakers there, a young fellow named Zach Wood, who's black, or at any rate, mulatto.
00:01:55.760Also, he is one who expressed disappointment most vigorously at the decision of the college president to disinvite me.
00:02:07.800Mr. Wood said, I totally disagree with Mr. Derbyshire, but I was looking forward to confronting him,
00:02:13.200which plays into my longstanding and oft-stated impression, belief, understanding that all this stuff, all this social justice warrior shrieking and stamping and fainting is quintessentially, not entirely, but quintessentially a white thing.
00:02:40.580It's a white liberal thing. Blacks don't care that much.
00:02:44.440You may remember back in 2010, I think it was, I went and spoke to the Black Law Students Association at the University of Pennsylvania, and they were very nice.
00:02:57.100They got a very nice reception. Nobody minded anything I said, and I was quite blunt with them.
00:03:01.080But it's the gentry white liberals who drive all this kind of thing.
00:03:08.060I don't say they don't have black allies, but far more blacks than white liberals are willing to talk about these things.
00:03:17.720I actually asked a black friend about this, and he said, well, we just kind of suspect that all white people think what you say anyway.
00:03:34.280Yeah, I think it's a case where the main energy, social justice energy that leads to censorship and shouting down and all that kind of stuff does come from white people who view blacks as these maybe kind of innocent creatures that they need to protect, and that's their moral charge.
00:03:58.660I think that's probably the dynamic at play.
00:04:00.820I've written, I forget how many pieces I've written now about race issues that end with me sort of, you know, metaphorically throwing up my hands and saying, what the hell is the matter with white people?
00:04:19.740Well, you've written the same thing, Richard.
00:04:21.340We don't so much have a black problem in this zone as a white problem.
00:04:26.240Yeah, I think that is definitely the case.
00:04:28.660Well, before we get into some of these theoretical matters, let's dig a little more into the case at hand.
00:04:36.740So this is basically an organic student group.
00:04:40.540I was actually involved with some student groups of various kinds when I was a student, you know, a couple of months ago, you know, when I was in college.
00:05:00.060But you, you have to have, you have to be a self-starter of some sort and have a little gumption and then you, you, you, you're officially recognized and you kind of make, give a little report to the administration.
00:05:11.220Sometimes the administration will throw some money at you to, you know, rent a venue or provide food or something like that.
00:05:18.180But, you know, there are tons of groups like this doing, you know, the chess club or theater club or the debate society or whatever.
00:05:26.320And so this is a totally student-led organization and they, they invite you.
00:05:31.020I think that's a really fantastic thing.
00:05:33.020That seems to be exactly what college is about or supposedly at least.
00:05:39.300But then I, I read the, the president did one of these just, it was almost like his, his hypocrisy was so flagrant that I don't know how anyone could have actually even read his statement and not snickered.
00:05:56.180Because he, he goes in and says, you know, free speech is just the most wonderful thing.
00:06:57.860I mean, the president was effectively denouncing them or something else to that.
00:07:03.680And, and I, I've, I've made this point.
00:07:07.140The, um, Williams has a student newspaper and one of the journalists on the newspaper emailed me about that.
00:07:15.680And it happened, it just so happened that last week I gave a talk to some students at another university.
00:07:28.100And, um, and I had mentioned that to the, to the guy that I was doing, having the exchanges with, Williams, the student leader that I was having exchanges with.
00:07:38.680And, um, so this week, which now it's a news item and the, the, the student newspaper, Williams is writing it up.
00:07:48.720And this reporter got in touch with me and she said, uh, I heard that, uh, you were going to give a talk to another student group last week.
00:08:25.240And I, I cited the case of Jason Richwine, who I know slightly and who, and who's still struggling.
00:08:32.720You know, a young guy starting out in his career and, um, and they come down on him the way they did.
00:08:40.460Imagine how college students feel with this kind of thing.
00:08:44.060Yes, it's real fear and it's entirely justified for you.
00:08:47.840These social justice warriors are ruthless.
00:08:50.760They, they, they'll hunt you down and shoot you in the head.
00:08:53.380Yeah, I mean, uh, maybe not literally, but they'll, they'll do it online and, you know, the, the internet never forgets.
00:09:01.160So, um, yeah, I mean, it, it really is a, it really is a tricky situation because college is the, uh, you know, the, your four years of experimentation.
00:09:11.000As it were, when you are, are, are, are encouraged to try new things intellectually.
00:09:17.640And most people actually spend their four years trying new things in terms of, um, uh, intoxication, narcotics and, and sex.
00:09:26.820That's probably the main draw of college, actually.
00:09:30.440That might have once been the case, Richard, but we are now, we are now a society under strong ideological control.
00:09:50.760Things have changed and I think they might've actually, I think they've, you know, when I was a student, I, I was a student in the late nineties and the early two thousands as an undergraduate.
00:10:00.200And then in the early two thousands and mid two thousands, I guess, as a grad student.
00:10:04.500And, uh, I left in, uh, 2007 from where I was in a PhD program and I left that.
00:10:10.920Uh, and I, I think things, things had changed over that seven year period where I was, you know, in and out of, of universities, but I, I think it's probably, I, I agree.
00:10:21.480I, I imagine it has gotten more puritanical, uh, now, um, I guess what I was saying.
00:10:28.620Fortunately, I have, I had a, I had an early training in, in, in, in this kind of thing, in, in working with higher education and inner society under strong ideological control.
00:10:40.920I was actually a college teacher myself in, in, in communist China, uh, academic year, 1982 to 83.
00:10:49.540Um, there's some nice photographs on my website of, of me, um, teaching students there.
00:10:55.980Um, and that China at that time, you know, Mao had only been dead for six years.
00:11:02.060Uh, it was, it was still, uh, very, very strictly totalitarian.
00:11:28.440The commies barely hold a candle to the, uh, social justice warriors.
00:11:32.380And, uh, well, I, this is, in, in, in, in, at least in a society like that, um, as China was in the early 1980s, you didn't, you didn't have that much to lose.
00:11:48.360What, what typically happens to students who crossed some ideological line, uh, and I, I had a couple, I know a couple of friends of mine.
00:11:57.180What typically happened was that at graduation, uh, in China at that time, and still largely today, after you graduate from college, you are assigned a job.
00:12:08.480You're a, you were sent off to be a, this was a, this was a teacher training college, and you were sent off to be a teacher somewhere.
00:12:15.220And if you had crossed some ideological line, you were sent to a really cruddy posting, you know, some slate quarry or coal mine somewhere to teach the kids under these really awful industrial conditions.
00:12:31.160And on the other hand, if you, if you kissed up to the leaders and informed on your fellow students and helped along ideologically, you got a nice, nice, soft spot in a fairly prosperous city.
00:12:45.620And it's in a way, I, I think we should dive into this issue of, of totalitarianism because I, that, that word is, of course, is overused and it's thrown around and all that kind of stuff.
00:12:56.300And it's a, and then it's a kind of boogeyman, uh, of the 20th century, but we, we obviously don't live in a system that resembles, uh, the, the communist system as you described, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't have a lot of the same characteristics.
00:13:14.340And, and in some ways you could even say it's worse because we, we don't have a government that is, uh, you know, from a vertical top-down way is not oppressing thought criminals, so to speak.
00:13:29.000Like I, I've never, um, I, I've never been visited by a federal official and, and I haven't even been, uh, screwed over by the IRS, um, you know, fingers crossed, knock on wood.
00:13:42.040Uh, but I, I get a tremendous amount of horizontal pressure, you can say, from, you know, people denouncing you, even to the point of, you know, some mild death threats that I don't take those very seriously, but they, they're there.
00:13:56.600People denouncing you, uh, condemning you, making fun of you, you know, informing on you, so to speak.
00:14:02.920Uh, so, so we have in a way, like in an American society, it's a kind of like horizontal system of control where, or horizontal totalitarianism, where the, the pressure is coming from society and, and non-governmental organizations.
00:14:18.060And it's not really coming from the government, you know, directly, per se.
00:14:23.600And, but in a way, as you, as you're saying, it could be even worse.
00:14:27.000I've, I've, I've, I think there are these, um, cliches, I remember, the Soviet Union, you know, if you, if you say something, uh, say something ideologically incorrect, you might get sent off to Siberia to, uh, instruct mathematics to, uh, coal miners or something, you know, some, some kind of thing like that.
00:14:42.440Well, the fact is in the, in the United States, you know, if, if, if you are labeled with racist or anti-Semite or, uh, you know, Holocaust denier or all these kinds of things, which, which are effectively thought crimes that, you know, you can, you can have, you, you can not have, have engaged in anything, any kind of physical violence or theft of property.
00:15:37.220Uh, there, there's an expression that sticks in my mind from, uh, Witt Vogel.
00:15:42.000The, the political scientist, Carl Witt Vogel, he spoke about a beggar's democracy where, um, you can't kind of say what you like, but you can't, you can't get anywhere with it.
00:16:01.120You can't say anything you like on the internet, but, um, uh, it, it's never going to ascend into any kind of practical action or get you into any kind of job.
00:16:11.020And if you, if it's the wrong thing, it'll keep you out of jobs.
00:16:17.140That, that's a, uh, that, that is a good metaphor.
00:16:19.580Although I, I, I would suggest that with the internet that it is like that there's so much out there now that no one can, no single person can keep up with it.
00:16:29.280I can't even keep up with my Twitter feed, you know, not, not to mention, you know, all the things that are published every day.
00:16:36.500Uh, but so, you know, we, uh, you know, we, we live in this world of just massive overload.
00:16:44.800Uh, but that being said, uh, it, it does seem like we've actually had a lot of breakthroughs recently where, um, just, just this, even this notion of the alt-right that, that mainstream people are picking up on.
00:16:58.960And, and, and it does, it does seem like if we keep, let me mix a metaphor.
00:17:04.740If we keep banging our heads up against the wall long enough, we'll break through at some point.
00:17:24.220I think if you look at, if you look at human history in the round, um, the kinds of liberties that we've, we've enjoyed for the past century or so are very much the exception.
00:17:38.840Uh, I, I, I'm a sit down and do a, do an actual head count at some time.
00:17:43.620But I, I think of all the human lives that have ever been lived, not, not counting just barbarians living in the forest, you know, but civilized life.
00:17:54.480I would think at least, surely at least 95% have been lived under despotic control.
00:18:02.540You know, in the great empires of, of, of China and Tsarist Russia and the Incas, you know, uh, there's been very little liberty in human history.
00:18:12.840So it's not something one should really expect.
00:18:18.260Well, but aren't you kind of indulging in some current year-ism by saying something like that?
00:18:25.260Because, I mean, in a way, like, you can look at Tsarist Russia and say, oh, they weren't allowed to vote or something like that.
00:18:31.840But in terms of actual personal liberty, there was probably more of it.
00:18:37.840Um, well, it depends who you're talking about.
00:18:40.440You know, Pushkin got sent off to the Caucasus by Nicholas because, you know, he wrote the wrong thing.
00:18:46.060And, uh, and, and that was quite a well-placed, well-born person.
00:18:50.960If you were, if you were a serf in old Russia, forget it.
00:18:55.860Well, I know, but, but it, it does seem, I mean, I, I think you're, you are engaging in some current year-ism where you're taking what we expect for a human life now and kind of saying, oh, that is the norm.
00:19:11.800I mean, the, yeah, I mean, yes, a serf was bound to the land, uh, but, you know, we don't, that was a totally different point of history of technology, technological development and so on.
00:19:25.160And in some ways, uh, a serf could actually say whatever he wanted at the local pub.
00:19:31.740You know, I mean, it, it kind of, it, it depends on one's perspective and, and I'm not, I'm not trying to glorify serfdom or, or glorify the past.
00:19:41.080I'm, I'm just saying that it's, you know, things are very different and I, I think we shouldn't, we, we shouldn't just glorify this, you know, post-American world as the end all and be all because we get to cast a ballot in a box every couple of years and, and, uh, you know, and so on.
00:20:00.300I mean, in, in some ways we, I mean, as we're, you know, pointing out earlier, I mean, in some ways we have a, a shocking lack of freedom and liberty.
00:20:08.900I don't know, Richard, we are, we are, we are, I don't, I don't care about the ballot box thing, but, uh, we are pretty much left alone by the authorities.
00:20:20.800That's, that's what I was thinking of.
00:20:22.800Although, on your side, I will say this, if you look at the history of the Cossacks, um, I was reading about the Cossacks recently, they were, they were largely Russian serfs who just got fed up with being serfs and just gone off into the wild spaces in the, in the, in the southwestern Ukraine and started their own communities.
00:20:43.020So, there was a way out, which, there, there isn't now, really, there isn't, there are no more wild places, there's no way you can go.
00:22:55.560And I tossed and gored that whole proposition nation idea and said, okay, so what is a nation?
00:23:02.820And then I moved on into ethnicity and I gave them some academic references about ethnicity, Vandenberghe and Walker-Connor, people like that.
00:23:13.740Who I'm sure you're familiar with, and, uh, pointed out that, uh, emphasised that ethnicity is, uh, Vandenberghe actually gives the definition as perceived kinship.
00:23:29.840So there can be a fictive element in, in ethnicity, it's perceived kinship.
00:23:35.420And I gave them some quotes from the founders and the Declaration of Independence, you know, about how our British brethren,
00:23:42.840and, uh, how they've ignored the appeals of consanguinity and said, you know, okay, but it wasn't just British in America at that time.
00:23:53.100There were Dutch and French and, and Germans and, and, you know, blacks and, and Indians too.
00:23:58.760But they were developing an ethnicity and, and, and the nation came out of that ethnicity, which was partly fictive.
00:24:07.500And then I, I pointed out that most national ethnicities are partly fictive.
00:26:37.340And then when the Soviet, when the Soviet union fell and the cold war ended,
00:26:41.500all these little ethno-nationalisms came up after, after being suppressed for so long.
00:26:46.960And you've got things like the mess in what was Yugoslavia, uh, you know, and, and the Vietnam, uh, war can be seen in a similar mode and so on.
00:26:57.580Well, yeah, I think the, there are a great deal of ironies to what you're talking about.
00:27:01.000I mean, one of those is that, you know, part of Soviet policy was to, I wouldn't say create ethnicities because you could, you, it's not like they created them out of thin air, but, but to inspire them and to amplify them.
00:27:13.860Uh, as I, even, you could maybe even say that I could kind of divide and conquer, uh, type thing.
00:27:19.940Uh, and then this, uh, the, you know, the, the chickens came home to roost when, when a lot of these ethnicities, uh, uh, did want their day in the sun or their own, their own state.
00:27:29.340I think that's one of the great ironies of it, you know, what other, I actually, uh, I, I have an extended quote from professor Huntington along those lines, talking about the 1965 immigration act.
00:27:41.660What were the motives of the people promoting that?
00:27:46.580And I, I mentioned a number of possible motives.
00:27:49.520And then I said, well, I'm, I'm with professor Huntington.
00:27:51.800He thought, and he wrote that it was an attempt by our elites to move us from a national model to an imperial model, because the leaders of nations attempt to unify their people, whereas the leaders of empires attempt to divide them so they can play them off against each other.
00:28:12.480And I, that, that, that was my interpretation.
00:28:15.940That was Huntington's interpretation, but I agree with it, of the motives behind the 1965 act.
00:28:22.040Yeah, I think, I think that's a very perceptive, uh, perspective on this.
00:28:25.980You know, one thing that I was thinking about when you're mentioning these things is that America seems to, it seems to have a concept of nation.
00:28:38.940It's, you know, it's funny because when we say things like the United Nations and the, and the so on, I mean, these are really United States in the, in the sense, you know, uh, you know, we, we sometimes will say things like the Polish, uh, Poland is a nation, you know, Poland is a state.
00:28:54.340It's also a nation, but there's a difference between a government and a people.
00:28:58.000That's a very important thing that I think, you know, Americans have kind of a funny terminology that we mix up all the time.
00:29:05.120Um, but what, what I was thinking is that, um, obviously America is a state in the, that European sense.
00:29:13.160It's a government, it's an, it's an order, uh, uh, a system.
00:29:17.540Um, and so there, there is a, there is a kind of nationality question.
00:29:21.100And then, uh, obviously there, there's always been a racial component to America that that's been there from the beginning, uh, you know, in, in the sense of not, not, and not only slavery.
00:29:32.920Slavery is in a way, just one part of it, uh, it was a part of the confrontation with, um, uh, with Indians, uh, to some degree confrontation with, uh, Spanish Mexicans, uh, and so on.
00:29:46.000There's, but there's always been this racial element, but you could say maybe today there, there, we seem to not have an ethnic component to our, to, to American nationality.
00:29:57.920Where we, we, we can say we all believe in freedom or something, and we're all, you know, paying taxes to this government.
00:30:05.660But we, we don't, we don't really have that sense that, oh, we're all Protestants.
00:30:12.040Or, oh, we're all English speakers, or we're all related to, uh, the British Isles, or, or, or someplace else, or, you know, so on.
00:30:20.660We, we seem to have this real lack of an ethnic kind of mythic.
00:30:25.260Because if you're saying, you know, you know, ethnicity, uh, as opposed to race, which you could think of as biology, and nationality, which is the, the government.
00:30:33.120You know, ethnicity is, is half fiction, half myth, half reality.
00:30:38.780And, uh, and we seem to almost not have that anymore.
00:30:42.520There, there are echoes of it, and, and, of, of being, you know, English-speaking people being connected to that world, being connected to Europe.
00:31:00.560Yeah, and, uh, I, I, I wonder, it's, it's, it's, it's kind of hopeless to wonder, but I can't help wondering if the, the nation that we had in, say, 1960, um, could have worked that out.
00:31:18.220Uh, we can't, it's hopeless to try to work it out now, um, because we, we've taken in too many people from too many places.
00:31:26.320But the nation as it existed in 1960 consisted mostly of people who'd been there in the first place, including blacks, and, uh, people who'd come in, in the pre-World War I, um, uh, immigration surge, who had almost entirely been European and mostly assimilated.
00:31:48.880Uh, you know, uh, you know, it was a population with a, with a history of, of living together for decades.
00:31:55.560And in the case of blacks and, and, and legacy whites for centuries.
00:32:00.760And I, I wonder if we couldn't just have worked that out and come to this point, ended up in 2016 with a fairly coherent ethnicity with a fictive element.
00:32:12.300You know, nobody's going to say blacks and whites are kind of the same stock, but then, as Professor Vandenberg says, every ethnicity has some fictive element.
00:32:23.240And I, I wonder if we could have, if we hadn't had the 1965 Immigration Act, if we could have settled our differences with, with blacks, with our fellow, our black fellow citizens, who've been here longer than some of us.
00:32:49.460Do you think a harmonious settlement is possible in a multiracial society?
00:32:55.100It's, I would, I would probably say no.
00:32:59.520I, I think this is, this is one of those questions.
00:33:01.780And, and one thing that, you know, as one thing that's hard about answering a question like this is that it's not mathematics, you know, where you can isolate something.
00:33:09.720Cause there, there are a lot of different variables and, you know, and as you said, um, very rightly is that so much of, you know, there, there was almost a kind of universalism of the cold war that was playing into a lot of this new Americanism of, you know, in the second half of the 20th century.
00:33:27.300We, we've got to be even more egalitarian than the Soviets or something like that.
00:33:33.260Uh, so it's hard to isolate these things.
00:33:35.060I, I think you can imagine an alternative universe, uh, in which exactly what you said happened where, um, where, you know, cause a lot of these, these ethnic rivalries between Europeans, as you say, they, they were smoothed over.
00:33:49.740And also there's just so much intermarriage that, uh, you know, who, who, you know, who, who is a real Irishman, you know, at this point, or, or, you know, it's, everyone's been kind of mixed up.
00:34:01.580You could say for better, for worse, maybe we've lost something because of all these European ethnicities were, were, were mixed up.
00:34:08.780Uh, but, and I'm sure we have lost something.
00:34:42.300But yeah, I mean, but I, I think in a way race throws this wrench into the machine where I don't, outside of doing something that I, I don't, I don't think anyone, well, I certainly don't want this.
00:34:57.680And that is a miscegenation with Africans where, um, we, we become this, uh, you know, a kind of ethnicity that you can actually see there, there, there is a, you know, a mulatto ethnicity.
00:35:08.780Um, that, that might've been the only way to solve that problem.
00:35:12.560And I, I certainly don't see that as ideal.
00:35:14.460I think North America is so big that in an alternative universe, there, there could have been some separation where, uh, you know, there's, there's some Southern region that is, is effectively an African region.
00:35:28.960Um, but I, you know, I, I think again, that this is real alternative universe speculation.
00:35:34.700I, I think once you throw in that other component of Americanism has to be this global force for good in so many people's minds, uh, I think it, it, it basically became impossible.
00:35:48.380I, I, I think it, it, we were, we're kind of destined to have this rather, this fragmenting and, and rather unhappy, uh, society that we have today where, you know, no one wants to talk about race yet.
00:36:02.140It, it, it, it seems to inform everything, you know, and, uh, you know, whites want to talk about it.
00:36:22.160So I, I think it's, it's, it's almost kind of like, um, I, you know, with, with all of these different factors that were at play, I'm not sure we could have ever reached a happy reconciliation where, and, and I think we're going to have to, because we're not, we're not, I don't, you know, we're not going to ultimately,
00:36:38.620gain anything by, uh, you know, being, you know, treating the blacks like, oh, you, you're just, you know, you are just the worst thing in the world.
00:36:48.600You're all you do is crime and all that kind of, like, we're going to have to reach some kind of understanding, um, with Africans in the future.
00:36:57.000And that's going to be hard, but it's, it's going to have to be an honest understanding.
00:37:02.340It can't be, uh, it can't be what we have today, which is we don't want to talk about this issue slash we want to like snicker about this behind closed doors.
00:37:13.900Or we, you know, we want to watch videos of blacks behaving badly on YouTube and laughing, you know, we, we need to get over that kind of thing.
00:37:21.840We, we need to reach some kind of understanding, but, but again, again, I am, of course, more of the revolutionary type, but I think this will be a post-American understanding.
00:37:32.540I think the, the, uh, the American idea was, was kind of, um, maybe you could say, uh, ruined by its success.
00:37:42.900I think we're going to have to, if we're going to reach an honest understanding where we can both go our own ways and both flourish, I, I, I think it will probably be in a post-American.
00:37:51.820Yeah, but the trouble with that and the trouble with your separation is that it may not be possible for blacks to flourish.
00:38:02.940They don't have the collective ability to, where, where have they flourished?
00:38:07.200Well, when I say flourishing, I'm not talking about Silicon Valley is going to erupt in a African ethnostate.
00:38:15.620I mean, I think there, I think, you know, you could say there, there's certain, you know, Africa was flourishing, not, not according to our standards, but before white men came in and, you know, brought all this, you know, we, we brought all this medicine and, and lots of other things that have proven ultimately dysgenic in that context.
00:38:34.620You know, you know, a, a, a African society was flourishing on its own terms.
00:38:40.600You know, I, I think I, I remember, I think Stefan Molyneux, who's a, he's an interesting guy, kind of anarchist libertarian who seems to resonate with some things that you and I might say.
00:38:51.720He was mentioning, it's, I think it's a very good metaphor.
00:38:54.980It's, you know, if you got, if you took a polar bear outside of the Arctic realm and you, you set him down in, you know, the, a North American forest in, you know, Montana or something like that, he would die because, you know, every rabbit that he wanted to, or every deer that he wanted to see would see him coming from a mile away.
00:39:19.120It's this big white spot, you know, he, he, he, he's not evolved for that environment and climate.
00:39:25.960And so you can't say that that polar bear is, is stupid or dumb or, or backward or whatever.
00:39:31.700He's just, it's just not the right context for him.
00:39:34.720And I, I think, uh, you know, a European society is really a terrible context for Africans.
00:39:40.120It bringing Africans into our world, it's just, it's just going to inherently be unhappy.
00:39:45.440It's just inherently, and we should never have done it.
00:39:48.980And I, I condemn anyone involved with slavery because they, they did not have the, the foresight to see this.
00:39:55.280They, they were just thinking about, you know, profit margins.
00:39:58.340Let's use, you know, let's, let's use these niggers to make money.
00:40:02.240I think that was basically what their thought process was.
00:40:04.380And that, that is a very, I, I, that is a bad thing.
00:40:08.160We need to think about, you know, our great, great, great grandchildren and, and the consequences of our actions.
00:40:14.080Yeah, that, that was then, and this is now, Richard.
00:40:16.500Here's, here's a statistic I put into my talk.
00:40:49.000British Isles, twice the population of British West Africa.
00:40:51.660Today, British West Africa, which is now four countries, Nigeria, Ghana, Gambia, and Sierra Leone, British West Africa has over three times the population of the British Isles.
00:41:14.140Uh, you've gone from the, the British Isles being twice as populous as West Africa to West Africa being three times as populous as the British Isles, which has more people now than they did in 1922.
00:41:27.060That's, that's what's happening in the third world.
00:41:56.780There's no decent life for most of them, unless you, you know, unless you're, you know, unless you're kin to the, to the president or some powerful bureaucrat.
00:42:03.220There's no decent life for you in, you know, Sierra Leone.
00:42:08.200You've got to go, go live in a white country.
00:42:09.800Yeah, and also because, because of, that's the world we're in now.
00:42:13.140Yeah, and also because, you know, the world has become small in the sense of communications.
00:42:17.900You know, we, a, there was a, at one point when an African tribesman would have no earthly idea of what was going on in London.
00:42:26.740But now they have a, they have a very skewed vision of reality.
00:42:32.900It's, you know, they, I, you know, it would be interesting to actually think about what their perspective of the West is.
00:42:38.400You know, looking at some television programs or, or, say, worldwide CNN or looking at pornography on the internet, which is probably something that they've, one of the first things they do whenever they get an internet connection, I would imagine.
00:42:54.880So, you know, they, they have a skewed vision of it, but, but it is a vision nonetheless, and it is a vision of, of happy town, you know, of let's just go there and it's all going to be all right.
00:43:06.520It's all going to be better and land of milk and honey kind of thing.
00:43:09.260So, you know, there's also a big pull factor because of generous immigration policies in the West over the last 50 years.
00:43:17.720There are now big communities of these people in all Western countries, and they're, they're writing home and they're calling home saying, come on over, it's great here.
00:43:25.760So there's also, there's also, as well as a demographic push factor, there's also a pull factor.
00:43:30.960Yeah. I don't, I, you know, I don't know the answer outside of we, I don't think, I think the answer is going to be, it's going to ultimately be a very, very hard one.
00:43:44.140And it will, but it, but it's going to have to be about separation, or I think the ultimate outcome a hundred years from now is that we might, we might still have, you could say a white Jewish, maybe Asian, you know, financial elite, but we would have these countries, if you were to call them that, that are, maybe have little hyper ethnic groupings within them,
00:44:09.160but have no sense of, of, of a shared history or destiny or basically just big marketplaces for, uh, low IQ plebs and, uh, you know, playing with their smartphones and stuff like that.
00:44:22.840You can see some images of this kind of society.
00:44:25.040And, um, I'm just thinking of this, uh, Judge Dredd movie that came out a few years ago that seemed to be a image of a future American society.
00:44:33.080One of, of, of, you know, debased degeneracy and crime with, uh, with basically a, a government that was in charged, uh, charged with, you know, keeping law and order by, uh, in the most brutal means you could imagine.
00:44:46.420So I, I think that is certainly one possibility.
00:44:49.700Um, uh, you know, and we are going to see that we're, we're going to experience that anti-civilization unless we make some of these big, radical, hard choices.
00:45:00.960And we decide that we, we want a, a space for us.
00:45:07.600Um, and, and, and, and it, you know, and it's not going to be about, you know, just leave, just leave me alone or something or, you know, freedom and liberty kind of stuff.
00:45:16.700It's going to have to be about identity and it's, it will ultimately have to be a very, uh, a very hard choice of saying we, we, we want our, uh, our place.
00:46:13.960So that you've got one group of people there who see, see the light, although a bit ambivalently because they also want to plug into, um, uh, Western Europe's, um, economic, uh, structure.
00:46:26.640And that, that, that, that's sort of crippling them.
00:46:30.660And they want to plug into America as well.
00:46:33.180A lot of the Poland and Czech Republic are very pro.
00:46:36.120They're kind of, kind of living in the cold war a little bit, in my opinion.
00:46:39.980And the other big group is the East Asians.
00:46:43.180Uh, Japanese are still with all their economic troubles.
00:46:47.680They still set their face against mass immigration.
00:46:50.120So the South Koreans, the Chinese, I worry about a bit.
00:46:53.920Uh, but, uh, so far they, uh, they haven't been taking in big numbers of people.
00:46:59.580So there are, there are people there, but, but we're not those people.
00:47:13.300Although I would always, I would flip it around and say, I, I, again, I, just to take the Hegelian perspective.
00:47:20.280I, I, it's not that I think that exactly what you said is wrong.
00:47:24.160I think it's right, but it's not the whole truth.
00:47:27.840You could flip this around and say that because Americans and, and Western Europeans, you could say, have experienced this great trial that we have, our lands have been invaded.
00:47:41.920We've confronted the other, we've seen it, uh, that we might be the ones to, uh, to change it for the future.
00:48:02.480Uh, so I, I, you know, again, I, I'm, this is all speculation.
00:48:05.860It's not, you know, it's not mathematics.
00:48:07.620There's not just one simple answer, but I think it is worth, I think it's worthwhile to, to see it in that way that, um, you know, there, there, there is a certain maybe innocence of living in, uh, in, in Eastern Europe of not, of not experiencing, you know, what, what we've experienced.
00:48:25.940Uh, now, again, I, I'm, I obviously see the other argument to what I just said, so I'm, it's, you know, but, you know, there's something to be said, but I, I do think that, that, I, I think we all agree that that is the, that is the solution.
00:48:39.440We're going to have to carve out living space, and it's going to have to be ours, and there's going to have to be a, uh, a big fat wall with no door.
00:48:49.120And by golly, they're going to pay for it.