RadixJournal - Unconscious Cinema - The Star Wars

00:00:00.000 Mark, welcome back. Star Wars. When did you first get into Star Wars? Were you ever in

00:00:25.920 Star Wars as a child? Yeah, like any kid, certainly. I think we all were. I think there'd be something

00:00:35.620 unusual about you if you were not into Star Wars. Something was wrong with you more.

00:00:39.780 Yeah, I mean, you can be a tree worshiper or anything you want in America, but I think that

00:00:49.560 everyone is a Star Wars fan on some level. And I think it's because we all kind of came into the

00:00:57.680 cult at a very young age. Yeah. But yeah, so I, you know, I can't, I actually don't have a memory of

00:01:05.820 seeing the first film specifically. I remember seeing, I think I remember seeing the second film

00:01:13.040 even in the theaters. And, um, you're a couple of years older than I am. Yeah. Yeah. I was born in

00:01:19.060 1978. So I was born in the year after the original Star Wars was released. And I don't know when I

00:01:27.520 first saw it in the theater. I mean, it's all a blur, but the funny thing is, and I've, and I do

00:01:35.600 remember my first encounter with Star Wars and that was not with a film or with a comic or whatever.

00:01:41.680 It was actually with the toys. And so my parents gave me Empire Strikes Back toys for Christmas,

00:01:52.080 you know, let's say in 1981 or the, the, the Christmas of 1980 or whenever. And so I loved

00:01:59.340 them. So I was playing with an Imperial Walker and I was playing with Han Solo and Luke and Leia

00:02:04.680 and all of these guys, um, the figurines before I had even seen the film. And I, in a way the film

00:02:14.460 was conveyed to me or the essence of it was conveyed to me through these toys and I loved

00:02:19.600 them and I kind of got it, you know, from the immediate, immediately just playing with these

00:02:24.280 little kids toys. Um, and, uh, I don't remember when I first saw it. I mean, I, this was back in the

00:02:30.740 day, this was pre VHS and, um, it was a time when there was a lot of reruns of movies. So, you know,

00:02:39.340 a big film would be re-released in theaters or there'd be like, you know, uh, second, you know,

00:02:45.680 play movie theaters that would do, you know, older films. And so it was, we, we were able to see it.

00:02:53.140 So I don't quite know when I saw any of them. I remember looking forward to the return of the

00:03:00.460 Jedi in 1983 and hearing about it and seeing posters. And I think I even bought a book before

00:03:06.780 the film came out so I could see photos of the film before I saw it. I, I remember all of these

00:03:12.160 things. Um, so, you know, and, but all of the films are just a blur to me. They all, you know,

00:03:19.700 when, you know, when I was a kid and then this was the age of VHS. So we were, you know,

00:03:25.460 we're able to look at it that way. I'm sure there were, you know, pirate VHS copies going around of

00:03:31.960 someone recording, you know, an airing of the film on television. I, I guess the irony is I wish I

00:03:39.180 would have held on to all of this junk because I could have sold my Star Wars toys for millions on

00:03:46.080 eBay. And also, uh, if I had a recording of, um, one of those early VHS, maybe even bootleg VHS tapes,

00:03:55.080 I could be one of these people who, who has like the original pre Lucas fucking with his own artwork

00:04:03.180 version of Star Wars. So, uh, but anyway, I loved it. I remember I would freeze Han Solo in glasses of

00:04:11.700 water. So I would put Han Solo into a glass of water and then put that in the freezer. And my mother

00:04:18.700 would always get mad at me because, you know, uh, water expands, you know, when it freezes. And so I

00:04:25.120 would break all of these glasses. So we'd be, you know, eating lunch or something, and then a glass

00:04:29.360 would shatter in the, in the freezer. And then she'd be like, Richard, you're freezing Han Solo again.

00:04:35.160 So, uh, anyway, to, to, to put it mildly, it had a huge effect on me and it did, it did form a little

00:04:44.820 mythos in my mind. I remember I would, I would always watch the films like in the, in the, in the

00:04:49.660 early nineties, you know, on like Christmas or something, I would watch, uh, Star Wars or what

00:04:54.880 became a new hope and, uh, on VHS. And then I remember when I was in high school, this was when

00:05:01.280 Lucas was, um, you know, basically again, fucking with his own works of art. And we were impressed 0.96

00:05:09.440 with the CGI at the time. The CGI has, has not, uh, uh, weathered the ages to say the least. It

00:05:16.120 looks terrible now. And, and, and many people rightly think he ruined these films, but, uh,

00:05:21.380 at least the first, uh, new hope in particular. But, um, yeah, that was great. I kind of rediscovered

00:05:26.440 them as a young adult. Um, I, uh, rediscovered them again, kind of looking back. I remember

00:05:32.060 my nephews were watching the prequels and, uh, watching those. And I, I remember hating

00:05:38.280 them. Uh, but as time goes by, I think my hatred of the prequels has lessened. Perhaps

00:05:44.100 the watching the last jet or the, the last Jedi has made me appreciate the prequels and, uh,

00:05:51.440 relatively speaking. But, uh, but anyway, I, I think my experience with all the Star Wars

00:05:57.160 stuff is probably, uh, very, um, very typical for someone my age and for a lot of younger

00:06:04.800 people as well. I know, um, Hannibal Bateman has talked about very similar experiences.

00:06:11.140 Yeah, no, I mean, I, I think it's, uh, it, it, it is a pretty profound, uh, cultural phenomenon,

00:06:18.460 uh, Star Wars and, and a unique one as well. Um, what I would say also too, is that I think

00:06:25.260 one of the things that I enjoyed about, uh, the films as a kid is the fact that they, um,

00:06:31.920 the very simple fact that they had swords, right? They had these lightsabers. And, um,

00:06:37.680 I think that that all has always appealed to me. Um, you know, especially as a, uh, a young,

00:06:43.020 uh, child or a, you know, adolescent was the idea of swords versus, uh, uh, you know, guns,

00:06:50.500 right? There, there's a, um, there, there's always been more sense of, uh, heroism around swords and

00:06:58.600 hand-to-hand combat. And, um, and I think that that was one of the, you know, the fact that it was

00:07:04.720 able to, uh, incorporate, uh, this kind of honorable old manner of combat into a modern setting. I

00:07:12.940 think was one of the most appealing aspects of, uh, that sort of, um, myth world that, uh, that

00:07:21.560 Lucas created. Um, I mean, just so you know, I'm sure. An elegant weapon for a more civilized age.

00:07:28.640 Yeah. And I, I mean, those are the things that, um, I was consciously aware of as a child, right?

00:07:34.340 I mean, obviously there are much deeper themes embedded, uh, in this mythos that we'll get into,

00:07:39.960 but, um, you know, from a kid's perspective, I remember being, yeah, uh, you know, there's

00:07:45.740 nothing more kick-ass in a lightsaber or a sword for that matter. So, you know, in any case.

00:07:52.120 Yeah, absolutely. Well, it is high fantasy. I mean, that, that's the thing. Star Wars is not

00:07:55.360 science fiction. Uh, Star Wars is high fantasy. It is in a long time ago in a, in a galaxy far,

00:08:02.800 far away. I mean, this is the famous open lines read, uh, and that is how to understand it because

00:08:09.600 actually as science fiction, it doesn't even make sense. Um, in the sense of like, I mean,

00:08:16.200 people joke about this, the, you know, the, the death star, you know, how does gravity work on

00:08:21.740 that? Why, why, why are the, um, why are people not in an orbital, you know, relationship with the

00:08:30.580 center of gravity as opposed to being, you know, basically standing in a, um, they're, they're

00:08:36.920 standing upright as if gravity is, is pulling them straight down with the death star. That's not

00:08:41.860 obviously how gravity works. They'd have to be on the surface of the death star. Uh, the, why are

00:08:46.580 they using, why are they engaging in like world war two style battles, uh, with planes and runners

00:08:54.880 and trenches and so on? I mean, it, it makes absolutely no sense from a science, science fiction

00:08:59.980 perspective, but it's not about science fiction. Uh, and I think it is like, it, it is obviously a

00:09:06.300 reference to King Arthur. Um, it's a, you know, there's some Tolkien thrown in there as well. Um,

00:09:14.460 but, uh, I, I think there, there are also some more recent myths. Um, it's, you know, the, the,

00:09:22.460 the rebel alliance, at least in the original trilogy, the, the rebel alliance are the allies of the

00:09:29.480 second world war. And, uh, and the empire is, is the British empire to a certain degree with all the,

00:09:37.260 the English accents and so on, but it, but it is Nazi Germany and it mythified for, for baby boomers

00:09:46.480 as, as George Lucas is. And then also for, you know, everyone who's in the wake of that world war.

00:09:54.040 I mean, it, it, it offered a, a mythic restatement of recent history.

00:10:01.680 Yes, no, I, I think that's true. I mean, I think that, uh, you know, as far as, uh, reference to,

00:10:08.320 um, Arthurian, uh, mythology, I think it's, it's pretty evident in the film. Uh, in fact, uh, Obi-Wan,

00:10:16.260 uh, Obi-Wan Kenobi is actually referred to as a wizard, which I had, which I had missed,

00:10:20.680 you know, in whatever previous viewings of, uh, the film I, I had made, but, um, so he's Merlin.

00:10:28.240 Yeah, he's Merlin effectively. He's Merlin. And, um, you know, he gives the sword, uh, to Arthur.

00:10:34.800 So it's, it's very similar to, uh, you know, Odin, uh, bequeathing the sword to a Sigmund who

00:10:40.840 is a Seagird's father, um, or, uh, Merlin giving the sword to King Arthur, right? Uh, Merlin is the

00:10:48.520 one who places the sword. Um, well, I guess maybe it might be, uh, Uther Pendragon. It depends on the

00:10:56.500 version, but strikes the sword into the stone, right? Uh, but either way, the origin of the sword,

00:11:02.960 but Merlin's always the midwife of Arthur. Like he, he gives birth to King Arthur from this boy to King

00:11:10.160 Arthur and kind of teaches him about his father and, and, and his, and his family's power.

00:11:15.720 That's correct. And actually the sword passes through Merlin, uh, you know, through Uther

00:11:21.680 Pendgarden to Merlin to Arthur, though it originates from Merlin. So, yeah. So, I mean,

00:11:30.160 but those things are pretty evident. I mean, it's funny how, uh, the sword is given in a very kind

00:11:34.940 of, uh, uh, you know, unceremonial way, uh, relatively in the, uh, star Wars, uh, trilogy.

00:11:42.200 I mean, he just kind of casually, you know, mentions that he has the father's sword, right?

00:11:48.260 Though it only later takes on more as he starts to learn about the force, the sword only later

00:11:54.780 takes on a greater meaning to, um, Luke Skywalker. But, you know, and also Luke Skywalker is, uh,

00:12:02.840 is clearly a kind of celestial figure, right? Uh, his name Skywalker, right? So he's, he is just kind

00:12:09.880 of Apollonian. He's a, a blonde Nordic Apollonian figure. And in this way, actually in film history, 0.96

00:12:17.420 I mean, he's just somewhat, he's somewhat unique in that regard. I mean, if you look at Hollywood,

00:12:22.080 I mean, he's this sort of fair blonde hero, right? Uh, similar to Siegert in that regard. And, um,

00:12:29.460 uh, you know, the other thing I would, so he is a kind of Apollonian figure, the name Luke also

00:12:37.700 might, uh, it might be, uh, a reference to, uh, I think the, the etymology of the name is related

00:12:45.360 to light bearing. It's similar to, it's similar to Lucifer, right? So light bearing. Now I assume that

00:12:51.980 was deliberate, though. It could have been a reference also to, uh, the biblical figure of Luke,

00:12:57.320 which in my mind seems a little, a little less likely, but it could have been a reference to

00:13:02.700 George Lucas as well, or maybe an unconscious one or a conscious one. I think that's for a conscious

00:13:09.240 one. Yeah. I mean, it actually could have been a reference to all three of those things, I don't

00:13:15.200 think, you know, um, but, uh, yeah, so that's interesting. And then eventually, and I don't think

00:13:23.460 it was ever, I don't know that it was ever intended that Leah would be the sister of, uh, Luke, but she

00:13:30.240 then eventually becomes this kind of Artemis, uh, you know, so it's Artemis and Apollo between Leah

00:13:36.280 and Luke. Right. And it actually, in the, uh, in the most recent film, I mean, Leah does in some

00:13:44.460 way become this kind of lunar goddess. Like she, she's thrown out of the aircraft and she sort of

00:13:50.360 survives this event somehow, but I guess she has the force as well. Right. So she's able to,

00:13:55.840 she's a, she's able to be, to survive being cast out, uh, into space. So she becomes effectively

00:14:03.640 Artemis or Diana. She becomes a lunar goddess in some way or a stellar goddess. Right. Um,

00:14:12.380 now I, you know, I think that a lot of these things develop, so I don't know how much of this

00:14:19.720 was intended by Lucas, because I think my understanding is that he made the first film

00:14:24.680 and thought maybe it was kind of, it was going to be kind of a one-off, right? So he, he, it might've

00:14:31.300 been the case that he didn't, and it actually does seem to be the case because there is as much as there

00:14:36.220 are these sort of deliberate, uh, kind of mythic, uh, themes and sort of reference to mythic figures,

00:14:42.380 woven in, um, to the, to the film, especially the first film. There's also some degree of like

00:14:48.980 arbitrariness I find with his, you know, it's kind of a frustrating, uh, or kind of definitely did not

00:14:56.140 map this out. I mean, and there's actually a book that I, I think I listened to, uh, I listened to

00:15:02.700 like the first few hours of it on, on audible. It's the make it's, it's something like the making of

00:15:08.080 star Wars and they go through original drafts and so on. And, and look, there's this myth that

00:15:13.880 George Lucas created for himself around the time of the prequels that, Oh, I had all of this planned

00:15:20.120 out. I had Matt, I had maps, I had earlier scripts and all that, that is absolutely not true. I mean,

00:15:27.780 he, he certainly built up a world and he suggested, suggested things, but you know,

00:15:33.900 there was no original intention for Darth Vader to be Luke's father. There was no original intention

00:15:40.000 for Leah to be Luke's sister. In fact, the original intention was the opposite. That was going to be

00:15:45.560 the love interest. Uh, and it was, it was after Darth Vader became this icon that the prequels became

00:15:53.800 the tragedy of Darth Vader. You know, he, he was originally a henchman like figure, but there was

00:15:59.860 just some, such a powerful aspect to Vader that he, he just, he overwhelmed the series itself and it,

00:16:09.660 it had to be about him and he had to be connected to Luke's story. And it just, it works. I mean,

00:16:14.800 it's one of those things that it's, it's, it's just such a brilliant twist, you know, where you hear

00:16:19.900 about the death of his father, but you, could you be a Jedi, but Oh no, no, you don't have to understand

00:16:23.940 your father actually went to the dark side and you're fighting your father. I mean, it, it gets

00:16:30.560 at these, you could say Freudian themes of, um, you know, in, in a basic way, don't, don't take that

00:16:37.900 too far, but in a, in a basic way of a young person rebelling and needing to overcome his father while

00:16:45.000 in a way becoming his father at the same time through his rebellion. Um, and also this, this kind

00:16:51.520 of redemptive, uh, quality to that as well. Uh, but yeah, I mean, George Lucas, he was just, he kind

00:16:58.900 of caught lightning in a bottle and was just flowing with it. And it was only, it's only in

00:17:04.420 retrospect that he claimed that he had all this mapped out and this was, you know, a vision in his

00:17:08.500 head. Uh, the original star Wars was not episode four. The original star Wars was star Wars and, uh,

00:17:14.880 the original script of the empire strikes back does not include Darth Vader as Luke's father.

00:17:19.480 So, and, and, and Leia was only made his sister by the point of return of the Jedi. So again,

00:17:26.980 it was this, it's, you know, none of this is really to be taken as a criticism of George Lucas. I mean,

00:17:32.340 it's, it's the artist at work, uh, discovering the piece as it unfolds. No, that's true. I mean,

00:17:39.720 he, the other thing I'll say, and I agree with everything you've said, but, um, that he, there were,

00:17:45.380 uh, collaborators and co-writers introduced into the process of, you know, of this trilogy.

00:17:51.280 And I think that in some cases they may have had a hand in directing, um, you know, some of these.

00:17:58.680 So in other words, the fact that in retrospect, um, Luke and Leia emerges kind of, uh, a sort of a

00:18:08.020 young in repetition of like Artemis and Apollo. Um, some of this may have also been directed by, uh,

00:18:14.020 screenwriters who were looking to work in mythic themes into the film. Right. And including the

00:18:20.180 theme of like the father, you know, him going against his father, like, you know, Jupiter opposing

00:18:26.620 Saturn to use a very kind of basic, uh, comparison. Right. So, um, I think it's true. I think he kind

00:18:34.420 of, uh, he kind of muddled through this. There's no question about it. And, um, I think that they

00:18:40.280 were throughout the process though, I think that they were looking in a sort of kind of,

00:18:45.480 um, haphazard manner, introducing these kinds of mythic themes into the, into the body of this

00:18:51.880 trilogy, um, consciously introducing them. But like I said, and it's kind of, it, it, it ends up being

00:18:58.740 a little bit of a muddle in my opinion. Um, but I mean, in that actually continues to this day,

00:19:05.560 I mean, there, there, there are still Arthurian references in the most recent films. Um, for

00:19:11.560 example, the, uh, the black hero, um, the, you know, the, the very popular black, uh, hero in the

00:19:19.120 alt-right, um, for the, for the, um, uh, you know, the latest batch of films, um, he, his name is Finn,

00:19:30.140 right. And this is a reference to, um, a prior, a earlier Celtic, uh, precedent of, uh, King Arthur,

00:19:37.260 a character named, uh, Finn McCool, right. Who was like, or he was Arthur before Arthur. Right.

00:19:45.460 And, uh, but there's more meaning and intention to that name. And I don't, you know, I'm not,

00:19:51.220 I, off the top of my head, I'm not sure, uh, which screenwriters were involved, but Abrams,

00:19:56.580 uh, I was the director. Lawrence Kasdan actually returned for, uh, the force awakens and then

00:20:03.640 Lawrence Kasdan wrote the empire strikes back. And I would not be surprised at all if Lawrence

00:20:10.080 Kasdan as a more worldly sophisticated Jewish writer added in, you know, or, you know, was very

00:20:18.200 interested to add in the, uh, the, the Darth Vader being Luke's father, uh, trope. I don't want to

00:20:25.480 take anything away from George Lucas, but no, I think that's, I think what you're saying is

00:20:29.640 absolutely correct. I mean, there were actually, uh, Jewish collaborators on the, that trilogy that

00:20:35.040 clearly enriched and made those, but those three films, better films. There's no question about

00:20:40.300 the, the guy who directed the second film, for example, uh, whose name escapes me right now as a

00:20:46.480 Jewish guy. I don't, he's really known for much else, but, um, Kirshner. Yeah. Yeah. I mean,

00:20:52.180 that's famous for directing the non-canonical James Bond film, uh, never say never again and not much

00:20:58.340 else. He's not, not a great director, but he, he obviously hit it out of the park with, with that

00:21:05.480 one. Yeah. And of the, uh, of, of that trilogy, uh, that's sort of the best, uh, piece of filmmaking.

00:21:14.340 Um, you know, so, but continuing on this theme of Finn though, there is a subversive idea. So you say

00:21:21.060 Kasdan and Abrams introduced this character, Finn, the black character. Yeah. Yeah. Well,

00:21:27.400 his name also means fair, right? The name, so Finland is land of the fair, right? And Finn,

00:21:35.420 the word, the name, uh, Finn means fair. I mean, he's clearly not a fair character, right? So the clear,

00:21:42.220 he originally was white in concept art. Oh, is that right? Yes, he was. He, I, he might,

00:21:47.900 he was very fair. I think he might've even had red hair or something like that, but yeah,

00:21:51.100 he was definitely a fair hair, fair, fair skin, uh, character before JJ Abrams got into casting.

00:21:59.700 All right. Well, so maybe that name is, uh, you know, maybe Abrams thought it would be, uh, you

00:22:04.900 know, especially given the name, I don't know. I don't, you know, who knows how conscious Abrams

00:22:08.420 was of the name, but probably conscious of it. Um, so, uh, you know, so the other thing too,

00:22:15.440 I'll say is that, um, because, uh, Finn McCool is, uh, sort of this, uh, precedent of Arthur,

00:22:22.880 it seems indicated, or at least probably the original idea with this, with this first, uh,

00:22:28.860 you know, this new round of films is that Finn would be some kind of like kind of heir apparent

00:22:33.540 or, or theory in character. Like he would rise as a King, right? Yeah. Sensibly. Now, of course,

00:22:39.600 there's, uh, there's a female character named Ray. Is that correct? She raised the female lead

00:22:44.760 and that name also means King. Right. Yeah. So that might be kind of a tipping of the hand

00:22:52.660 indicating, or kind of a foreshadowing, you know, through, uh, uh, naming that indicates

00:22:58.420 these characters are going to be salient, um, go, you know, going forward or are going to be sort

00:23:03.660 of the rulers or inheritors of, uh, the cosmos or whatever the case. Right. I mean, I, I think

00:23:10.940 this is all very interesting. I mean, that there clearly some kind of love interest was set up

00:23:15.880 between, there's a love triangle set up between Kylo Ren and Ray and Finn. And, um, I, it's,

00:23:24.900 it's hard to, I don't know. I mean, Finn, this bad for lack of a, sorry for the rudeness,

00:23:32.000 but for a big lipped, big nose, you know, very Negro black man. And, you know, with Ray, I think 1.00

00:23:40.000 that, you know, the, the, the idea of those two being King and Queen, I mean, that seems a bit much

00:23:46.340 even for 2017. I mean, not, not that, not that they're unwilling to go there, but, uh, that, that

00:23:53.140 just, that, that's, you know, Hollywood is a bit conservative. It's more conservative than television.

00:23:58.060 It's more conservative than a lot of other, you know, at least in terms of casting choices and

00:24:02.980 things like that. I'll tell you the technical problem with it, Richard, is that, uh, there's

00:24:07.360 no chemistry between Ray and any of the other supporting characters as far as I can tell.

00:24:13.400 Right. No. Uh, or even between Ray and Kylo Ren. I mean, that, that, that whole thing is kind of an

00:24:22.900 interesting love affair, but it seems a bit forced in terms of the actors. They don't seem to be in

00:24:29.580 love with one another or anything like that. Maybe Kylo Ren kind of is. He's, he's so passionate

00:24:35.140 about it. Uh, there is a scene where they're like sort of psychically communing with one another and

00:24:40.520 he's like, he's bare chested. Do you remember this? And she asks him to put on a shirt. Yeah.

00:24:46.500 I mean, there is this kind of, it almost seems like there's a kind of, she has this kind of

00:24:50.600 disgusted intrigue with him at certain points during that scene, you know? Um, but yeah,

00:24:57.920 I don't, it doesn't really seem like it would be a natural. I think no question. Uh, this is what

00:25:05.180 Kasdan and JJ Abrams are setting up. The problem is that Ryan Johnson got a hold of the, the movies,

00:25:12.940 the franchise. He was the writer director. He had ostensibly total power, uh, along with the

00:25:20.180 producer, Kathleen Kennedy. And he just basically dissolved all of these things. So Snoke is dead.

00:25:27.120 No one cares who he is anymore. Um, Ray and Finn seems to have a, have a kind of friendship.

00:25:33.920 Maybe he's in love with her a little bit, but there doesn't, he, there, there's another new 0.98

00:25:37.700 love interest between Finn and this, uh, you know, Asian fat Asian bitch who's, you know, 1.00

00:25:44.200 totally, you know, just some proletarian character basically of no mythic significance. And, uh, and, 0.98

00:25:51.940 and Ray is just, you know, I don't know what's going on with that character. I mean, it's just,

00:25:56.720 it seemed to just be all dissolved, uh, by that film. And, um, so I don't know where they can go.

00:26:03.680 I think the last Jedi was a terrible film in the sense that, you know, it might've been a well-made

00:26:08.400 film, but it was just terrible in the sense of, uh, destroying all of these, you know, this whole

00:26:15.420 setup that, that Abrams did. And, and I do think that, that Abrams was setting up something like

00:26:20.460 that. Um, like we've just described, but anyway, let, let's talk a little bit about like the 20th

00:26:28.440 century mythos, because I think this is very interesting and I, I, well, yeah, just to finish

00:26:35.820 kind of a little section on, uh, uh, sort of the, the mythic or the, the more ancient mythic

00:26:42.080 references. It's clear also in my mind that, uh, Ryan is continuing this idea, right? So in other

00:26:47.760 words, we see, for example, the Jedi temple has 12 disciples, right? Which is, you know,

00:26:54.160 a reference to Christianity of course as well, but those references to Christianity are also

00:26:58.640 contained within the Arthurian legend. So, um, King Arthur has 12 nights, right? Um, who represent

00:27:06.700 the apostles, right? And, and what, whatever, whatever else those, the number 12 might signify

00:27:13.420 in, you know, Jewish esotericism. Um, so the, um, so that's, you know, I just wanted to say

00:27:21.100 that that is something that filmmakers are working with very consciously, a kind of, or it most

00:27:26.580 saliently is kind of an Arthurian Christian reference that runs through it. But yeah, but

00:27:32.040 to continue, uh, uh, please, I interrupted you. Yes. So yeah. Uh, in, in terms of the 20th

00:27:38.400 century myths that these films are, are representing, uh, the, the way I look at it

00:27:45.300 is, is that we, we should understand it chronologically and, and understand it within

00:27:49.800 each film within its time. Uh, the rebel Alliance is clearly the self-image of the American-led

00:28:00.560 allies in the second world war. And, and this, again, it's not really based on fact. This is this,

00:28:08.400 this image of these spunky, uh, rebellious individualists who all come together to face

00:28:16.640 down fascism effectively, which is the empire. Um, you know, willing to engage in genocide

00:28:23.500 of Alderaan. Uh, you know, they're, they're brutal. They dress in black. They order people

00:28:29.360 around, you know, Darth Vader's throwing people up against the wall and force choking them at will.

00:28:34.920 And, and so, and, uh, yeah, they're, they're obviously more civilized. They're trying to

00:28:50.420 bring order to the galaxy, but, um, I, I would say this, the, the rebels, even, even though they

00:28:57.860 are American and, um, and, and, and, you know, anti-authoritarian or whatever, they are recognizably

00:29:07.640 white in the first two films. This starts to change in Return of the Jedi and it changes in the,

00:29:13.820 the prequels and it's definitely totally changed in, in, in these recent batch of films. Uh, but yeah,

00:29:20.660 so they, they are, they are white when at the end of a new hope or star Wars, that ceremony,

00:29:27.780 um, uh, the award ceremony in which Han and Luke, uh, are given awards by Leia. I mean,

00:29:35.900 it is in itself a bit fascist. I mean, it, that, that scene is taken directly from Lenny Riefenstahl's

00:29:44.500 Triumph of the Will, uh, in its, uh, almost shot by shot, but, but certainly in its iconography and,

00:29:51.440 and music also by John Williams, which is also, uh, extremely important element to this whole

00:29:57.100 franchise is the music. I mean, you can't, I would actually say it's essential. Like you could not,

00:30:01.280 an indispensable, you, you can't take away John Williams Wagnerian music and in this franchise to

00:30:08.900 still stand. Like it, it, it would lose so much that I don't think it would have had the power.

00:30:14.500 Not even, not even close to what it has. I think it would have been a forgotten sci-fi film.

00:30:19.500 Um, that's how important I think the music is. But anyway, in terms of the music and the, uh, the,

00:30:25.360 the, the scene, this, you know, the, the production design, the, the mise en scene, the, the,

00:30:30.860 the actual staging, I mean, it is right out of Riefenstahl. Uh, the, the rebel Alliance is

00:30:36.540 recognizably white. This starts to change in the return of the Jedi. You get Admiral Ackbar,

00:30:41.600 you get some weird aliens thrown into the rebel Alliance. Um, this changes more in the, um,

00:30:49.040 the prequels where the, the, the, um, where again, it's not the rebel Alliance. They are,

00:30:54.560 they are the empire in a way. They are the so-called Republic, which is an empire.

00:30:58.660 And it's an intergalactic empire that has a parliament and democratic features and federalist

00:31:04.260 features and things like that. And, um, it is a noticeably alien, uh, group of people and,

00:31:11.620 uh, certainly post-human there. There's humans seem to maybe form a bit of a majority,

00:31:17.640 not even a majority of the Jedi council, but they're, they, they seem to, they seem to be kind

00:31:22.980 of like a equal among equals types. Um, but, but, but it is not a human world. And, and I would say

00:31:32.100 now in these, the second round of films, the, the, the, the so-called resistance are, are Antifa

00:31:37.980 basically, you know, it's, it's a ragtag coalition of the oppressed. Um, it, it, it has a much more

00:31:47.240 left-wing quality than the good old fashioned, um, you know, allies of yesteryear. And this did change

00:31:55.980 as well in return of the Jedi. And, and Lucas, I believe even spoke explicitly about this.

00:32:01.540 The, the battle scenes were also taken from world war two footage. Um, even in his first, uh, showing

00:32:09.500 of the film, not, not theatrical showing, but, but first cut of the film before the special effects

00:32:15.100 were done, he actually had world war two, um, footage, um, you know, again, like cinema footage

00:32:22.440 of world war two, which was fake in itself. But, um, but that kind of footage was used in a lot of

00:32:27.680 the battle scenes. So he was, you know, Lucas was evoking the second world war in return of the Jedi.

00:32:34.400 He was actually evoking the Vietnam war and the, uh, the forest moon of Endor was originally going to 0.95

00:32:41.620 be, um, done with, uh, Wookiees as opposed to the damn Ewoks. And then he obviously wanted to sell 0.96

00:32:48.060 toys and he created these, you know, utterly annoying talking teddy bears and the Ewoks. 0.99

00:32:55.720 And, um, uh, but, but anyway, that was a Vietnam era thing. So you had the fascist who, you know,

00:33:03.820 enter a primitive world, relatively speaking the world, the Ewoks and still lose, you know, they, 1.00

00:33:09.640 they lose a guerrilla battle or they lose against an insurgency. Uh, and again, I think as this goes on,

00:33:16.540 I, the, the, the, the so-called resistance is just becoming, you know, they're, they're becoming

00:33:21.740 the self-image of Antifa basically. And, and the empire went from being a little bit of the British

00:33:29.820 empire, a little bit, a lot of Nazi Germany to it's just, it's now a stand-in for white supremacy

00:33:35.900 and, and a human led order, uh, which are connected in this. And so, you know, when, when, uh,

00:33:46.200 I'm forgetting his name, uh, Poe Dameron is first talking with General Hux, who's this,

00:33:51.780 you know, very campy, uh, you know, redheaded general of the empire, you know, he says, oh,

00:33:57.700 you're, you're, you're white and pasty. I think that, that social justice general played by Lauren 1.00

00:34:04.340 Dern, she rammed her ship into the supremacy, like it's dreadnought or whatever it was, 0.97

00:34:11.620 star destroyer. And, uh, so I, I just, I think the metaphors are, she was literally,

00:34:18.260 yeah. Go ahead. She's literally a blue haired, like cat lady. Yes. Right. So, um, 1.00

00:34:25.700 there's no question that's, that is the type of person he was trying to evoke with that woman

00:34:31.680 and with Leia herself, who's, who's less now of a princess or a love interest. She was always a

00:34:37.120 little bit of a feminist princess, you know, I don't, thanks for the rescue or she, she has some 1.00

00:34:42.040 lines like that, you know, I don't need saving. She was one of those types, but she still was a 0.98

00:34:46.860 princess and now she's general Organa and she's this, you know, earth mother leader of Antifa. 1.00

00:34:53.440 And then, you know, with their blue haired, you know, general social justice warrior who comes in

00:35:00.340 and commits suicide against the evil Nazis. I mean, it's, I, it's, it's impossible not to read the 0.81

00:35:06.340 story in this way now. Yeah, I know. Well, actually, so the blue hair is actually a very

00:35:12.940 conscious reference. That's like a known, uh, symbol, I think in less in lesbian culture, 1.00

00:35:18.500 there's a film because I was interested at, because, you know, you see these people with

00:35:23.400 blue hair and you wonder what the significance of it is, uh, because blue is a more common hair,

00:35:28.560 uh, color than green, for example. Uh, though I think that, that I've seen that as well.

00:35:32.700 Yeah. And, uh, I think the woman had purple hair and the Laura Dern had purple hair, but 0.98

00:35:37.320 Oh, is that right? Okay. Go, go with it. A shade of blue. Yes.

00:35:42.960 But the, uh, there's, there was a, uh, I guess it was a French lesbian film, which I haven't seen,

00:35:49.100 obviously. Uh, blue is the warmest color and, uh, it's written a, uh, coming of age erotic tickler

00:35:55.900 where a confused 15 year old girl falls for a blue haired hair, right? So it's a, it's,

00:36:01.160 it's a motif. I definitely want to watch that tonight. Yeah. Let's, I think we should do our

00:36:07.080 new, our next podcast. You know, a favorable, uh, sympathetic review. Yeah. Yeah. See how many

00:36:22.440 comments we can get in the comments. Uh, but, uh, anyways, uh, yeah. So no, what I would, uh,

00:36:33.280 what I would just say though, just as far as the world to metaphor is concerned, I mean, to me,

00:36:38.920 that's evident. And I, I, I, I think it would, would have been obvious to most people seeing the

00:36:45.060 film for the first time, um, that, you know, that it was sort of, you know, that it was likely a

00:36:51.400 metaphor or inspired in part by a depiction of, um, or was intended as a kind of metaphorical

00:36:59.780 depiction of, uh, Nazi Germany. Right. Um, but a lot of that has to do with the fact that Nazi 0.65

00:37:06.520 Germany is sort of the primary kind of boogeyman in, uh, American society. Right. And it hasn't been

00:37:12.320 for a long time. So there's sort of the default, uh, boogeyman and, you know, given how kind of

00:37:18.260 kick-ass these guys were in their, like in their appearance and how, uh, you know, just the whole 0.72

00:37:23.500 presentation of the empire, uh, is a kind of fascistic, uh, presentation as, as you've already 0.69

00:37:30.120 described. Uh, so I think that that would have been a natural, it would have been, people would

00:37:34.220 have seen that, uh, audiences would have picked up on that immediately. Um, the other thing I would

00:37:39.620 say though is, you know, there is, there is this very, uh, the, the, the entire depiction of it

00:37:45.360 though, goes to a very kind of interesting idea that we have about world two and that we've retained

00:37:51.120 long after that war is this idea that we're kind of, we are kind of these ragtag, you know, rebels who

00:37:59.480 like, you know, are against the odds. Yeah. And when, of course the reality of world two is that

00:38:07.460 we weren't the rebels. We were not fighting against the odds. I mean, the resources that

00:38:15.780 we brought to that war versus the resources that we opposed, I mean, we're very much in

00:38:20.780 our favor. We were not these little like ragtag rebels. I mean, it is true to the extent that

00:38:27.100 our equipment was much shittier than their equipment. Right. So in other words, uh, you know,

00:38:32.740 you could find some equivalency in like, uh, the millennium falcon is this sort of, you

00:38:37.340 know, this flying trash heap or whatever it's referred to in the films and like a Sherman

00:38:41.880 tank, right. As opposed to German engineering, which was so vastly superior. It's not even

00:38:50.420 funny. Yeah. Though the problem there is that they, uh, they were a little autistic about, 0.84

00:38:56.820 you know, uh, making, you know, they were perfectionists. They used too much resources

00:39:04.540 on too few, uh, sort of military, uh, vehicles and weapons. Um, you know, the, and the other

00:39:12.160 thing too, I would say is that, um, you know, there is, uh, it does, the film is given kind

00:39:19.380 of this sort of samurai culture kind of stylistic patina. Um, and I'm speaking especially of the,

00:39:26.500 the first trilogy and the first film in particular. Um, but in my mind, it's, it's evident that the

00:39:32.440 primary inspiration was Nazi Germany. You know what I mean? In other words that that, that would 0.95

00:39:37.860 have been a way, you know, the fact that the swords or the lightsabers seem more similar to

00:39:42.640 samurai swords and there seems to be some kind of Eastern influence in the films. I think it's a very,

00:39:48.940 um, shallow, uh, stylistic influence and that thematically, uh, the films are very Western,

00:39:55.640 uh, in their ideas and themes. Um, you know, at least to the extent we understand that we're

00:40:02.220 West, right. I mean, there's obviously a very, a deep Christian theme that runs, uh, through the

00:40:07.180 films, but, um, so that's the kind of the final thing I would say, uh, about, uh, it, you know,

00:40:15.860 in terms of it having this Eastern patina, I don't, that doesn't really resonate with me. I mean,

00:40:20.980 it is kind of interesting that, um, you know, the other thing too, is that, uh, um, I mean,

00:40:27.520 the other obvious kind of Arthurian reference is that they're knights, right? They're Jedi knights,

00:40:32.400 right? They're, they're knights of, uh, the Arthurian order. Um, and then, you know, I think

00:40:38.940 that you guys, uh, you and Bateman touched on this a little bit, but, uh, the Christian metaphor

00:40:44.240 in this film, which I think we probably, we should discuss next is, um, is central to all the films.

00:40:50.520 And I think it remains central to all the films. Um, and that is this idea of the force, which

00:40:57.400 in my mind is, is, was probably intended as kind of a, uh, a synonym, uh, for, um, the Holy spirit,

00:41:05.520 right? Yeah, no question. I mean, may the force be with you is may God be with you and, and so on.

00:41:13.080 Uh, but, but at the same time, and it is the Holy spirit, I would, as, as opposed to the father

00:41:19.380 of the son, it, it obviously is something intangible and, and, and inexplicable in a way,

00:41:26.200 in the sense that it is the Holy spirit, uh, at the same time, it has a non-Christian, non-julistic 0.63

00:41:35.080 quality to it as well that is very striking. It, it has a, it's, that's what's fascinating about it.

00:41:42.580 I mean, cause the force is everywhere and it has light, a light and then dark side, which

00:41:48.320 are in balance. It's a, it's a different kind of almost pagan life force conception, um, as

00:41:57.240 opposed to a good versus evil conception of, uh, that, that is more dualistic Manichaean

00:42:05.580 Christian. You know, I, I, I might, uh, I might, uh, I might contest you on that because I find the 0.99

00:42:12.660 films very kind of Manichaean, uh, you know, Darth Vader, uh, you know, the, the, you know, uh,

00:42:20.500 you know, in other words, the dark side of the force, they're clearly these kind of evil

00:42:23.800 caricatures in all the films, you know, including the most recent films where it seemed that there

00:42:29.420 might be some ambivalence with, uh, Kylo, but it turns out he is not an ambivalent figure. He is

00:42:35.220 kind of, he's like an evil sort of demon that you might find in, uh, you know, Christian mythology

00:42:41.180 or, right. So I think that it is very Manichaean. I think that the, I mean, if you look at the word

00:42:48.620 holy, you look at the word holy, uh, uh, from a kind of etymological standpoint, um, it, it suggests

00:42:57.840 that it means exactly how it sounds. It's wholeness or something uninjured or intact, right? So in other

00:43:03.000 words, it's suggesting, um, in some manner, it's suggesting the whole world as a whole thing. And, um,

00:43:12.420 you know, Christianity very much has that ambition of being, of kind of occupying the whole space or 1.00

00:43:18.080 occupying the whole world. The world is, you know, um, I think, I think you understand what I'm

00:43:25.860 getting at. You know, it's Christianity is a kind of self-contained universe that is whole, right? 0.96

00:43:31.780 There's nothing outside of it. Yeah. Nothing exists outside of Christianity, ostensibly, right? Um, 0.71

00:43:39.060 so that, that is this concept of wholeness. And I think that, you know, I, you know, I don't think

00:43:44.940 Lucas is some, I doubt Lucas is a very, uh, you know, a theologically advanced man, right?

00:43:52.520 But no, no, he's a post-Christian boomer and he, he throws in lots of half-baked Buddhistic 0.94

00:44:01.220 aspects to the light side. So, I mean, this is where I, I, I mean, I don't disagree with you. I, I just,

00:44:07.760 I, I think there's different levels to it. I mean, he, he throws in some, some half-baked Buddhistic

00:44:14.600 elements to the light side. And so, the light side is about passivity. It's about letting go. It's

00:44:20.080 about dispensing with connections to the world, with love itself. I mean, this is something that

00:44:25.000 we learned in the prequels that a, a Jedi Knight cannot love, cannot reproduce, cannot have a family 0.93

00:44:29.760 or a, a lover, uh, and so on. And, um, you know, it's about withdrawal in this, in a way,

00:44:39.120 in a Christian way, but in a, in a kind of Buddhistic, uh, manner. And the, the dark side 0.92

00:44:44.900 is about passion and attachment and ambition and selfishness, but, but, but also, uh, uh, boldness

00:44:53.560 and rage and all of those emotions. Um, and, and, and obviously Lucas is, is counseling us to be more

00:45:02.060 Buddhistic and Pacific. Yeah. And you're correct. So, extensively that is the case, but, but what

00:45:10.940 you're describing effectively is, is kind of the posture that, uh, early Christians took and that

00:45:16.880 Jews take, right? And that's the, that's the posture that we're kind of always innocent and we're always

00:45:22.740 being sort of attacked. Right. Right. Which is obviously not the, you know, which is obviously

00:45:27.720 not the whole story, which is obviously the case, which is obviously not the whole story. Yeah. So,

00:45:34.440 so in other words, no, but this is kind of a more of an Eastern, but I would say also kind of, uh,

00:45:40.900 specifically a kind of Jewish, um, way of like kind of dealing with the world. So in other words,

00:45:46.660 all these, these ideas of like kind of love and acceptance and tolerance are effectively propaganda.

00:45:52.740 Right. And that's the way it, so in the star Wars film films, right, the rebels are being, uh,

00:46:00.460 persecuted by the, uh, the empire. Right. Yeah. But we, I mean, we, we know that's not the whole

00:46:06.400 story, right. That's not the whole story. So they are kind of, you know, you know, who knows what the

00:46:13.960 whole story is. It operates as this kind of propaganda for this kind of Eastern worldview that insists on its

00:46:20.540 own kind of innocence and, you know, while finding, you know, evil in the world that persecutes it for

00:46:27.500 some reason that, you know, can't be explained. Yeah. Right. So, um, that's what I would say. Um,

00:46:35.840 so in other words, it does, you're correct in the sense that it does take these kind of ostensible,

00:46:41.220 uh, you know, uh, posturing positions that were the innocence, uh, were the innocent ones. Right.

00:46:47.380 That's, that's how I would describe kind of the perspective that's conveyed in the films. Um,

00:46:53.020 as far as, uh, you know, kind of the, you know, the sort of specific words they use to describe

00:46:58.100 their philosophy. I mean, one, one example is balance. They have this concept of balance,

00:47:02.760 right. There's got to be balance in the force. And that would lead one to the conclusion that you

00:47:07.660 just articulated that this is kind of a Buddhistic worldview. Right. I mean, you know, that also

00:47:12.740 means that there must be the dark side. Well, what it also means, Richard, it's actually completely

00:47:18.680 false. Right. So it's just disingenuous, uh, way of like talking about the world, you know? So in

00:47:25.260 other words, the rebels would be fine if there were just balance, right? They're not trying to eradicate

00:47:31.240 the empire. They just want balance. Right. Right. Right. Right. Which obviously is completely

00:47:38.460 disingenuous. Yeah. So, yeah, I mean,

00:47:44.020 our adversaries are always going to say that we have too much power. How,

00:47:48.420 how little, you know, no matter how little our power is. Right.

00:47:52.180 Right. So the whole, we just want equality in this. Yeah. The whole counts. The whole concept

00:47:58.540 of balance is a completely fucking absurd idea. Balance. What is that? You know, it doesn't even 0.99

00:48:03.200 right. I mean, a similar thing actually happens. I don't know if you, I don't know if you watch

00:48:08.260 these films to their, their sort of like intolerable conclusion, but the, um, uh, the matrix films,

00:48:16.540 right. Right. I've not seen those in years. I actually have seen them. I think I saw them when

00:48:21.500 they first came out, but I, I've seen the first one multiple times. It's good. Well,

00:48:25.760 in the matrix films at the end of the film, there, there's a kind of black, you know, earth goddess

00:48:31.880 mother, mother, um, uh, Oracle, right. Yeah. Who is, uh, who is like the, uh, you know, ostensibly

00:48:40.060 she's sort of the benevolent figure in the whole series. Right. She's kind of, uh, the magic Negro. 1.00

00:48:46.360 Right. And, uh, uh, so the, um, uh, and she's contrasted with this white, ostensibly white,

00:48:54.480 you know, uh, very corporate, you know, very ostensibly very Western, you know, elitist,

00:49:00.560 pretentious, uh, figure, uh, called the architect. I don't know if you're familiar. You remember

00:49:04.640 that character? Yeah. Yeah. So they have at the end when, when the films are concluded at the end,

00:49:10.520 uh, they have this sort of, uh, meeting, right. Where they decide, uh, that, uh, they basically,

00:49:17.060 it's basically kind of a peace pact, right. They basically decide, well, you know, we're,

00:49:21.220 we're going to have a period of peace, you know, some balance essentially because of Neo sacrifice, 0.87

00:49:26.800 some balance has been restored in the matrix universe. Right now that's completely false. I mean,

00:49:34.040 there is no balance. There is no kind of end of like sort of struggle between these, these forces that,

00:49:40.520 you know, you and I and the alt-right in general understand very clearly. Um, so that's what I

00:49:48.380 would say. So I, so to the extent that, uh, you know, the sort of the mythos or the ethos rather

00:49:55.540 in, um, star Wars appears Buddhistic is to the extent that, you know, Christian ethos appears

00:50:03.300 Buddhistic. I mean, right. Well, let me actually say this. I think George Lucas is self-critical in a

00:50:09.840 way because, you know, all of these rebels are fighting for the old Republic and it's just

00:50:15.460 imagined as inherently wonderful and just and so on. But when it is depicted, it is anything but it

00:50:23.080 is unjust. It is, uh, mired in the sclerosis. Uh, it democracy fails. The parliament is, it goes

00:50:33.540 nowhere. They're the only people who are winning in the system are the intriguers, the plotters,

00:50:38.900 the schemers. Uh, and, and actually it is, it's interesting because the, the, the empire itself

00:50:45.620 emerges from the Republic. I mean, this is one of the tragic elements to the prequels. I, I kind of,

00:50:51.580 I don't know. Everyone loves to shit on the prequels for, for a good reason. And I think because of the, 0.97

00:50:57.580 the, the, the poor depiction of, of Darth Vader, um, uh, by, by hitting Christensen, um, and,

00:51:05.360 and, and by George Lucas's scripts and the dialogue and all the, I get it, but they, it's actually,

00:51:10.560 those are more interesting films than they're given credit for. So the, the, the old Republic

00:51:15.320 is not some foreign entity. I mean, the, the empire is the old Republic and the old Republic

00:51:21.640 goes against, goes to war against a quote, rebel alliance. It goes, it goes in, in the, uh, the second

00:51:29.120 film, attack of the clones. It goes against, goes to war against the separatists who seem to have a

00:51:34.800 kind of just cause. I mean, they are trying to separate themselves from a, a corrupt empire.

00:51:42.840 The older, the Republic is an empire to call it anything other than that is, is just word games.

00:51:48.320 They, they are the, the separatists have a just cause again, and a just claim against the empire.

00:51:55.180 The empire brutally attacks them, effectively genocides them and, um, and then becomes the

00:52:02.340 empire as we know it. And, and so, yeah, actually all of this, all of these claims for, you know,

00:52:10.320 the, the rightness of the, of the rebel alliance are, are total nonsense. Um, and, and the fact is,

00:52:16.980 you know, even, even Lucas himself depicts this in the prequels to his credit.

00:52:21.680 Yeah, no, I, you know, the, you know, I think another theme, I mean, I think we should pursue

00:52:29.500 this, uh, Christian theme in the films, you know, in my mind, I have quite the interpretation

00:52:35.480 of forced awakens. Yeah. Get ready. No, I mean, I think the, uh, I think a Christian theme runs

00:52:43.120 through all, what is it? Eight films, nine films, eight films. Well, I guess it's nine, including that

00:52:48.600 one off, right? Right. I guess it is nine, nine films. Yeah. And then there's, there's some

00:52:53.940 animated movie like the clone wars or something that I don't know if that one counts. It's

00:52:58.380 officially canon, but whatever. Yeah. And actually in that film, maybe there's less of a Christian

00:53:04.360 theme in that, that one off, but, um, yeah. So, I mean, yeah, in my mind, it seems that, uh,

00:53:10.240 Darth Vader, in fact, may represent, uh, you know, something akin to a positive Christianity

00:53:16.440 in Nazi Germany. Right. And, um, so that becomes evident in an early scene, uh, when effectively

00:53:27.000 they're, you know, they're criticizing him. Uh, I'm talking about the first, uh, the first film

00:53:33.020 that was produced the, I guess the fourth in the series, uh, star Wars, um, they're criticizing

00:53:39.400 him for clinging onto this old, you know, sort of superstition or faith. Right. Um, and this

00:53:46.140 is the famous scene where he, uh, is able to, you know, hoist one of his officers up in the

00:53:51.440 air and strangle him by his neck, you know, without touching him. And, um, thereby proving

00:53:57.440 actually that, uh, you know, this, this positive Christianity actually is going to be useful

00:54:02.640 in, uh, you know, uh, making Germany, uh, you know, a healthy nation again. Right. Um,

00:54:09.520 so that's clear in my mind. And in the film, what's interesting is that they depict, uh, Lucas,

00:54:15.400 uh, is worldly and intelligent enough to depict this tension between a kind of like more secular

00:54:21.880 German nationalism and, uh, the positive Christianity that existed there. Right. Um, and you know,

00:54:30.100 what's remarkable general Tarkin is a secular fascist and, uh, who doesn't believe in this

00:54:38.100 hocus pocus. Darth Vader is that as well, but, but, but he's more, he also understands the spiritual

00:54:45.620 qualities of national socialism, i.e. the empire. Yeah. I mean, he's effectively a, uh, you know,

00:54:54.920 an alt writer that, you know, says that we can't go on without Christianity. Right. I mean, except

00:55:00.560 he's, he's this sort of the kick-ass national socialist form of that. Yeah. Um, but so, um,

00:55:07.680 so that, that was evident in my mind. Now the theme as you, you know, I'll, I, I'll let you pick up on

00:55:14.020 the Kylo Ren, right. Because he's clearly a Christian figure, uh, and you may want to describe him. So,

00:55:19.520 but that shows a kind of a continuance, it shows filmmakers recognizing this theme in the early

00:55:24.920 films and continuing the theme, uh, through these later films. Right. Um, so, uh, when Kylo Ren first

00:55:33.640 appears and you and I have discussed this, uh, you noticed that the guy's sword is a cruciform,

00:55:39.980 right? So it's effectively like a medieval sword, which you, you pointed out to me. And, um, so that,

00:55:46.920 you know, but there are other clues as well. Um, the name, so it is a crucifix, what he is holding.

00:55:53.460 Yes. Yeah. Uh, the name Kylo is, uh, it appears to be derived from Kyle and it's a word that means

00:56:00.720 church, right? Um, now Ren, I can't, I'm not remembering right now. I think it might also mean

00:56:06.940 king or something to that, to this effect. I may have to look it up, but, um, you know, he, uh,

00:56:13.080 so I, the thing that I find interesting though about the films is that, um, um, um, though they,

00:56:22.500 there's, there is clearly this kind of Christian sort of theme and message to the films from the

00:56:27.660 beginning and, and, and it's done in a kind of, uh, you know, it's, it's taken through this sort of

00:56:32.840 Arthurian style, you know, science fiction myth. Um, so in the way also Arthurian legend

00:56:39.700 contains Christian themes. So also does star Wars and as deeply, I would argue, and it's taken, um,

00:56:47.980 what happens though is to my mind and I, it almost happens. I don't know if it happens deliberately

00:56:53.840 or it's, I mean, there must've been some element of deliberateness to it, but it seems that the dark

00:57:01.180 force at some point, especially with Kyle, Kylo Ren effectively becomes Semitic, right? 0.84

00:57:08.580 Hmm. Um, because he's clearly a Semitic figure in my mind. I mean, I don't think that you could, 1.00

00:57:14.060 I don't think a Jew watching the film wouldn't say, Hey, that guy looks kind of like a Jew. I mean, 1.00

00:57:18.480 I think the guy looks like a Jew and I think the Jews would identify that, especially Jews casting 1.00

00:57:22.900 him in a film, right? He's, he's, he's a dark haired, Semitic looking character. I mean,

00:57:28.320 there's no question about it. I think the guy is actually a Jew. Is, is that, is it true? 1.00

00:57:32.380 I don't know if the actors as well, but everything you say about his physiognomy is correct. Yes.

00:57:37.800 Which a guy like Abrams who cast him would have been sensitive to, right? Yeah. Um, so now who

00:57:45.900 knows what his sort of ultimate designs for that character were, what he intended that, you know,

00:57:50.980 what direction he intended that character to go or whether or not he retained some kind of influence

00:57:55.260 on the direction, direction of that character. He may or may not, you know, whether it's, you know,

00:57:59.440 actual, um, uh, sort of contractual legal influence or just, he has influence in other artists who are

00:58:05.340 working on the film and, you know, he can share ideas with them, you know? So what I would say

00:58:10.820 though, is that, you know, suddenly we see this turn where, you know, the, the kind of evil Christian 1.00

00:58:17.480 in the first film was Darth Vader who, you know, he's odd because, you know, uh, James Earl Jones is

00:58:26.600 voicing the guy, right? And, and he's in a black uniform. I've actually heard a black's

00:58:31.840 complain about this that they think they interpret Darth Vader as like, that was a famous scene

00:58:37.240 in chasing Amy. Yeah. Oh, yeah. I, I don't, I mean, I'm not sure I can buy that. I mean,

00:58:44.160 he's a big black figure and then he he's voiced by James Earl Jones. Although James Earl Jones is,

00:58:49.400 is famous as a Shakespearean actor. I mean, I, I don't, I wouldn't read Darth Vader as a black 0.94

00:58:55.780 man. I think that's a, it just doesn't, it doesn't work. Well, yeah. And regardless if

00:59:02.920 Jar Jar Binks had been Darth Vader, then yes, clearly that's. And, and, and it seems unlikely

00:59:12.820 we'd be having this conversation. Why are you saying that master Luke? Yeah. Luke, me as your

00:59:22.520 father. Luke is like, no, that's clearly impossible. It would have been an amazing

00:59:31.500 piece of, like, up on guard filming. Um, but, but so in the final watch, uh, you know, through

00:59:40.540 the trilogies, I mean, we've, we've, we've sort of kind of conceded that there's, there

00:59:44.500 is a, an element of arbitrariness to the way that these kind of films ultimately came together.

00:59:49.120 Yeah. You know, through their kind of various influences and because it seems Lucas did not

00:59:53.500 have an entirely clear idea, um, of what direction the whole series would go. But the, um, what

01:00:00.300 I would say is that, you know, Darth Vader in the end, we, he is in the end, an Aryan 1.00

01:00:04.640 figure. Yeah. The reason for this is because he's Luke Skywalker's father, right? Now it turns

01:00:11.280 out to be the case. Maybe it wasn't originally scripted that he was Luke Skywalker's father,

01:00:15.320 but he ends up as an Aryan figure. And plus he's at the head of this, you know, clearly

01:00:20.320 Aryan fascistic empire, right? Where he's dressed in black, but all his soldiers, all his knights 0.97

01:00:27.220 are in white armor. You're right. You know, so there might've been some significance to

01:00:33.720 that choice, for example. Right. Um, white block, so to speak. Yeah. And, uh, well, are they 0.59

01:00:41.040 clones at that point? Well, again, no, I mean, when the original, when the original trilogy was

01:00:48.300 created, they were clearly not clones, but, but they were, were, uh, what is it called? Retconned

01:00:53.620 into being clones by the prequels. Yeah. Yeah. And then they're not clones in the new trilogy. So

01:01:00.640 whatever. Let's, let's return, we, we should return to the clones because I think that's an

01:01:04.320 interesting point of discussion, but the, um, I, what, what I would say though, finally, uh, just

01:01:09.940 to sum up my point regarding Darth Vader versus, uh, Kylo Ren is that he's an Aryan figure. Kylo Ren 0.61

01:01:16.200 is now this kind of somatic figure. Um, you know, what, what I would say there is that, uh, you know,

01:01:23.220 it's, you know, so suddenly, in other words, I would make the argument, I'm sure much to the

01:01:30.780 displeasure of many listeners is that probably the most Christian of the films is the last one that

01:01:36.440 was made. Right. Because now, you know, you basically have a, a, a Jewish enemy, right. And 0.82

01:01:44.420 then you have the rest of the world against this Jewish enemy. You have all the cat ladies, you 1.00

01:01:48.300 have everyone, every, you have the entire rabble against, you know, and there's no more Skywalker

01:01:54.180 clan. There's no more, you know, Aryan bloodline that's all thrown out the window. It's just some 1.00

01:02:00.640 girl, Ray, she's, you know, the, the child of, uh, meth dealers or whatever. And, uh, yeah,

01:02:06.820 it's just basically the world up against, uh, the Jews, I guess. Wow. Yeah. Um, so it becomes 0.92

01:02:15.160 the most Christian and most antisemitic film. Totally unintentionally talk about unconscious

01:02:23.300 cinema. Yeah. I, uh, I, I, uh, it's quite a reading. I certainly don't, um, think that

01:02:31.000 was intended, but that doesn't mean that it's less valid. Uh, I would say this, uh, my view

01:02:37.520 of the force awakens is there, there is a visual metaphor, a visual language, you could say, uh,

01:02:43.440 spoken by JJ Abrams and perhaps Lawrence Kasdan, who is his co-writer. And, and it begins with

01:02:49.720 that, that lightsaber, which is a crucifix. It's a three headed lightsaber where the helm

01:02:56.780 is also lightsabers. It's a crucifix. And, um, you, this cross metaphor comes into play

01:03:06.900 in the battle between Kylo Ren and Rey. And so in many instances, their lightsabers are crossed

01:03:14.520 perpendicularly. And actually in, in one famous instance where he's saying, you need a teacher.

01:03:20.640 Um, the, the, um, the crucifix is actually reflected in each of their eyes. So you have

01:03:27.980 this crucifix separating them and it's reflected in both of them. And my view of this was that

01:03:33.700 both Rey in the sense and Kylo Ren represent two aspects of Christianity. So Rey is the Christianity 0.65

01:03:43.520 as a hobglob global religion for the masses and the hoi polloi and the, you know, world's 0.92

01:03:51.480 refuse. And so everyone, you know, all of these aliens are united and they've got their girl

01:03:57.800 power, you know, in charge. And, uh, they're, they're, they're all fighting against, you know,

01:04:04.560 fascism for freedom or whatever. Uh, but then at the same time, Kylo represents this flip side

01:04:11.260 to Christianity, which is organized, positive Christianity. And so he represents the church.

01:04:17.900 And that, that's where you actually gave me that connection of Kylo, you know, having an

01:04:23.160 etymological connection with church, the organized Christianity, right? And so Christianity organized

01:04:28.720 can become fascistic and, and, and puritanical and hierarchical and intense and worthy of rule.

01:04:36.020 And so what you see in the force awakens is that battle between the, the kind of flip side of

01:04:41.860 Christianity where there's, it's two sides of the cross. It's one is the, the Christianity as a

01:04:48.020 universalistic, you know, egalitarian religion for the masses or Christianity as a hierarchical

01:04:55.260 organizing force. Uh, and that is the first order order.

01:04:59.360 Yeah. Ren either means Lotus or love, right? So it, it could be ironically, you know, kind of church

01:05:08.200 of love or love church, right? But it is the church of love. I mean, the dark side is about passion.

01:05:15.720 Well, yeah, but a Christian, the Christian faith is like, it's a love faith as well. Right. So, um,

01:05:22.900 that would make sense. I mean, but yeah, I mean, there are other obvious two obvious Christian

01:05:30.520 references in the film. And this, this is actually an interesting one to discuss is, or rather in the

01:05:35.200 film series, there are other references in the prequel in the first prequel, uh, we learned that

01:05:40.660 Anakin is a virgin birth. Do you remember? Yes. Yeah. And I, ostensibly he's kind of, he's intended as an

01:05:47.460 anti-Christ, right? Uh, now I don't, my, um, I don't think that, uh, the anti-Christ is ever

01:05:55.920 indicated. Oh, well maybe, no, no. So I think that there may be the anti-Christ in revelations,

01:06:01.480 for example, there is a birth of an anti-Christ, um, you know, ostensibly, but, uh, the virgin birth

01:06:08.100 though, obviously is more, more associated with Christ. Um, so, you know, there is another example where

01:06:15.880 he kind of, he's, he's kind, it's kind of a mishmash of like sort of myth and symbolism that he's

01:06:22.360 weaving in. Um, and he's definitely stronger as a filmmaker when he has other people, you know,

01:06:29.120 directing his films or co-writing his films. Um, you know, but the other thing too, I would say

01:06:37.760 though, is that there are, there is a kind of interesting line in, um, the latest film, uh,

01:06:44.660 The Last Jedi when, uh, Luke is basically arguing that the, um, the Jedis have caused war,

01:06:52.360 right? That they've been a source of war and conflict. Yeah. I mean, this is clearly the case

01:06:58.220 with, uh, Darth Vader, who's kind of, you know, ends up being kind of the alpha dog in the empire

01:07:02.560 and causing all kinds of violence and destruction and warfare, you know, through the empire and his,

01:07:09.460 um, so I, I found that to be a somewhat profound point, but effectively what he's saying is that

01:07:15.120 Christianity is this kind of war causing agent, right? I mean, if you follow, I mean, that might 1.00

01:07:20.360 not necessarily be what the filmmaker is saying, though actually it probably is kind of what the

01:07:24.780 filmmaker is saying. I'm not sure because I'm sure the filmmaker understands this kind of Christian 0.99

01:07:29.400 metaphor that runs, you know, through the films. Um, so the crusades, for example, that is an

01:07:35.800 instance of violence in the name of faith. Um, you know, that might be kind of what, uh, the

01:07:41.780 filmmaker's thinking, right? So in other words, there is, uh, there is a good Christianity and I'm

01:07:46.780 not talking about positive Christianity in the national socialist sense, but there's the good 0.97

01:07:51.020 Christianity in the star Wars sense, and there's the bad Christianity. And that is the dichotomy that's 0.77

01:07:58.120 dealt with in these films. Yeah. Um, but I thought that that was an interesting point. And that's,

01:08:03.720 that, that kind of coheres, or rather it adheres to one of, um, Nietzsche's ideas that priests

01:08:10.000 cause war, right? Yeah. And, you know, I mean, we, to, to a greater extent, we right now live in a

01:08:20.020 kind of theocratic world where, you know, the wars that we're engaged in are ultimately religious wars.

01:08:27.200 Yeah. Right. They're caused by, you know, especially they're especially caused, if not

01:08:32.420 caused, I don't want to pull a Mel Gibson here, you know, but I haven't had that much to drink.

01:08:40.740 Anyways, you, you get what I'm saying. You know, the, so we basically, the wars now are

01:08:45.980 about a religious ethnic, the religious wars, middle, middle East. Yeah. Yeah. And, uh, so there is a

01:08:52.760 great deal of truth to them, you know? And, uh, if people are engaged in war, they can't,

01:08:58.640 they don't have time to figure out, figure out what's up or what's, you know, what's up and what's

01:09:02.960 down. They're, they're focused on an enemy. Right. Well, I think, look, let's put a bookmark in it.

01:09:09.380 Actually. I think this is a good split space to, uh, to take a break. Um, yeah, I think there's,

01:09:16.040 there's more to say about star Wars, but, um, let's save that for another podcast.

01:09:22.760 Yeah.

RadixJournal - January 07, 2018

Unconscious Cinema - The Star Wars

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