Reactionary Tree's Richard and Andrew Joyce and Charles Lyons are back to talk about Theresa May's catastrophic loss to Jeremy Corbyn in the UK General Election. They discuss the reasons behind her decision to call a snap election, why she did it, and what it meant for the future of the country.
00:00:00.000Hey, y'all. It's been too long. Andrew Joyce, Charles Lyons, two of my favorite people, were back to talk about Theresa May's triumphant victory last night in the UK general elections.
00:00:16.960Psych. It was a catastrophic victory, as I called it. But Andrew, first off, welcome back. I know you're not feeling too well, so I'm glad you're weathering the storm. But welcome back to the podcast.
00:00:34.120Thank you very much, Richard. Pleasure to be here.
00:00:35.900Yeah. Why don't you go first on this matter? Welcome back, Charles, as well. Because you'll probably jump into the conversation before I introduce you. So welcome back, Reactionary Tree.
00:00:53.020Yeah, in an election between Jeremy Corbyn and Theresa May, there are no winners and everyone loses. So I'm very happy to talk about this today.
00:01:05.900All right, Andrew, I wanted you to go first because you live in the United Kingdom. And why don't you just give us your take on everything that went down last night and everything leading up to it?
00:01:21.080Because it was just about a month ago or so that we thought Theresa May was going to and the Tories were going to win in a landslide. And then last night happened.
00:01:33.460Yeah, I think it's worth casting our minds back to the kind of rationale that Theresa May had in mind whenever she called the snap election, because it seemed like a good idea at the time to her.
00:01:49.700And there were, I think, three reasons why she thought it would be a good idea.
00:01:56.040The first was she wanted a strong mandate to go into the Brexit negotiations.
00:02:01.660So in her mind, if she could come off of a strong election victory, and she did believe that it would be a strong election victory, then it would strengthen her hand going into the Brexit negotiations.
00:02:13.720And somehow that would mean that she could make stronger demands from the EU, how realistic that would be in terms of getting to the negotiating table in Brussels and saying,
00:02:26.140look, just because I've come off a strong election victory, that means you need to give me all these concessions.
00:02:31.680I don't think it would have worked out quite that way.
00:02:34.300But that was one aspect of her reasoning.
00:02:37.760The second, and this has been less discussed, and this is a hunch of my own personally, from looking at Theresa May's career,
00:02:47.100from looking at the way she presents herself and the way she's involved herself in politics previously,
00:02:54.400I actually believe that she wanted to win an election in her own right.
00:03:01.040Don't forget that she became prime minister not by being elected and leading a party to victory,
00:03:06.300but because David Cameron stood down following the loss of his position in the Brexit vote.
00:03:13.940And I think she wanted to prove to herself that she could win an election, which she has done,
00:03:21.920but not in the style that she thought she would, and not to the extent that she thought she would win.
00:03:27.540I think that in her mind, Theresa May perceives herself as this kind of Iron Lady figure,
00:03:33.880in much the same way that Margaret Thatcher was.
00:03:38.560And I think she views herself as an heir to Thatcher in several respects.
00:03:42.800But I think she definitely aspired to that strength of a role.
00:03:48.020And in order for that to come to fruition, in reality, to the extent that it was in her mind,
00:03:53.180she needed a dominant electoral victory.
00:13:48.220And also, it is interesting that there's this parallel development of that in the United States.
00:13:54.700I mean, perhaps the United States was out in front in this development.
00:13:59.800I mean, it's usually called polarization.
00:14:01.820But effectively, these parties are identity symbols, you could say.
00:14:07.440So the Republican Party are for, you know, well-to-do white Anglo-Saxons, Protestants.
00:14:16.820But they're also a party for the working class.
00:14:20.140I mean, the Trump GOP really, you know, hammered that home.
00:14:24.320And so the GOP is this effectively implicitly white party or at least implicitly normal white party.
00:14:32.920And then the Democrats are the party for, you know, hipsters, liberal whites, and then everyone else in this big, you know, roundabout coalition.
00:14:42.220And, you know, where we are in terms of demographics means that we are at this – we're at loggerheads and we're at a tipping point where, you know, Trump can win as the, you know, normal person's party.
00:14:56.960He can win with razor-thin margins and win through the Electoral Congress.
00:15:03.380But once he gets in there, you just have this extreme polarization where the other side thinks he represents an existential threat because he represents the other to him, to them, and vice versa, I would say as well.
00:15:19.960And it is interesting that this British election showed a kind of two-party system where the liberal Democrats – and I don't – you know, I'm an outsider.
00:15:30.720I can't – I don't know exactly why there is this party as opposed to the labor – to the labor left, the liberal Democrats left.
00:15:40.160But they got – I think they might have gained some seats, but they did not do well.
00:15:45.060They are a very minor party, and this was a party that was in a coalition with David Cameron just, say, four or five years ago.
00:15:54.620Actually, Nick Clegg lost his seat, which I'm sure is pretty humiliating.
00:16:00.140And so basically, Britain is going into a two-party system where the Tories are going to represent white people, and that is certainly a lot of well-to-do types,
00:16:11.400but also the white working class, and then the labor is going to be this, you know, grab bag of hipsters, immigrants, non-whites, et cetera.
00:16:22.220I think that in the United Kingdom that it's kind of ripe for some type of political happening.
00:16:34.300You know, so UKIP is pretty much collapsed.
00:16:38.240They're gone because mission accomplished.
00:16:43.300Other than that, most Brits don't really find a lot of the libertarianism that runs rampant in the UKIP to be very appealing to them.
00:16:56.080And the liberal Democrats, I think they also went under a collapse, and that in part had to do with the rise of UKIP over the past several years.
00:17:09.820And you now have the possibility for the ascendancy of some type of new third party that can perhaps be the nationalistic party,
00:17:29.020but is also much more left-leaning on, say, economic issues that, like, UKIP is not willing to go there.
00:17:40.700But that could also be appealing to the former liberal Democrat voter and maybe even your more traditional labor voter
00:17:54.460and someone who could peel off a lot of people who'd probably begrudgingly vote conservative because there are no real other options available to them.
00:18:06.020Because, I mean, looking at this election from the outside, this is like, like I said at the very beginning, nobody wins.
00:18:16.060This is like a very, a big snore fest of an election.
00:18:22.320It was Theresa May versus Jeremy Corbyn, who's kind of this bizarre.
00:18:26.340To be honest, Jeremy Corbyn was the more fascinating candidate, but he's like some senile kind of weirdo, old tanky, who –
00:18:37.940the thing that was most interesting about him was probably his foreign policy views because they're kind of in line with, I guess, what our foreign policy views would be.
00:18:51.820Probably he's probably – he's not militantly Russophobic, he's, you know, anti-Saudi, he's against Zionist foreign policy in the Middle East, and he supports Bashir al-Assad.
00:19:08.340And so I think those are all things that pretty much everyone in our movement would be in agreeance with.
00:19:16.160And – but still, he was a very boring candidate, and he still obviously represents a lot of, like, the multicultural, like, pause that we're all opposed to.
00:19:31.260So I think, you know, given what we saw in this election, just like how boring and unexceptional it was, that this is the grounds for something to come in the very near future to capitalize on the political scene in the UK because the UK is in a rough boat.
00:19:55.840And the people there do want change, and the other thing is it's extremely difficult to express a lot of your opinions, especially if they are in opposition to multiculturalism or immigration, because you're going to lose your job and most likely be jailed.
00:20:13.840So there's – it's like a tinderbox or a powder keg right now.
00:20:21.440There's an opportunity for a spark to come and to really blow it all up and make something – make a wild political movement happen in the United Kingdom that the United Kingdom deserves.
00:20:35.300Because right now it looks like a whole lot of nothing is going on in the UK in mainstream politics, but also in, like, our circles in the UK.
00:20:46.580There's just not a lot going on there right now when there should be.
00:20:50.740It should be one of the most exciting political scenes in all the world.
00:20:53.560One of the reasons why it isn't is because of the electoral system in the United Kingdom, and the first-past-the-post system, as opposed to the proportional representation system, which you see in a lot of European countries, really restricts the growth of any new party.
00:21:15.720It entrenches and reinforces a two-party system, and we have diverted from that somewhat in recent years.
00:21:25.660Lib Dems were an exception for a longer period of time, although they now finally seem to be dying a death, and there probably will be no way back for them at all.
00:21:37.400But it suffocates the prospects of any kind of new party coming through.
00:21:45.780One of the innovations, one of the promises that Lib Dems had long sort of tabled was that they promised to change the electoral system to proportional representation.
00:21:57.340But because so much of the rest of their manifesto was awful, I mean, they were promising to make hate crimes an aggravated offense, so like the sentencing times, you know.
00:22:11.880So if you got two years for kneeling a bit of bacon to a mosque door before, you were going to get four years now.
00:22:17.360And, you know, they were making these, on the one hand, they were making these really egalitarian, freedom-loving proposals, like let's change our electoral system to make it more democratic and more easier for smaller parties to flourish.
00:22:31.660On the other hand, they were promising these really draconian measures for anyone who had an opinion that differed from their left liberalism.
00:22:42.340And, of course, Labour and the Tories were never going to go for a proportional representation system because Turkeys don't vote for Thanksgiving.
00:22:52.480They aren't going to introduce a system which is going to result in them bleeding out votes.
00:22:58.640I mean, the first-past-the-post system that prevails currently results in a tremendous number of wasted votes where, you know, you might have second and third preferences, and so much of it just gets scrapped.
00:23:13.620So much of the will of the people gets entirely dismissed because it's just you just kind of cream off the top layer of votes, and that's what pushes your MPs into Parliament.
00:23:23.700So you end up with these members of Parliament representing constituencies where they have very slim mandates, and they're elites, and they're aloof from the people, and you get circumstances in which a constituency might, on the whole, be, for example, opposed to mass immigration.
00:23:44.940But you've got this guy who managed to come through in the two-party system with first-past-the-post, and he's on a completely different level.
00:23:52.220He's coming at the issue of immigration from a completely different ideological standpoint, and there's no way to dislodge him, really, because of the way the system is set up.
00:24:04.800Before we go on, explain that to our American listeners that first-past-the-post, because I think most of us are under the impression that it is a proportional parliamentary system.
00:24:15.360It's been some time since I studied politics in detail, so I'm going to give you the briefest and usable summary of it.
00:24:28.000But you go into a polling booth, and you have a ballot sitting in front of you, and you can take your candidate of choice and your second preference and your third preference.
00:24:43.440And the way those get added up is where the difference counts, because in a proportional representation system, the smaller parties will get on the ballot paper, and all of those votes count.
00:25:00.360So even if they get a certain number of third preference votes or second preference votes, they're all added up, and if they get 3% of the vote nationally, then they will get 3% of seats in parliament, which is democratic.
00:25:18.000You know, if 3% of the people want to be represented by this party, well, then 3% of the seats in the national parliament should go to that particular party.
00:25:26.900Under first-past-the-post, the goal is different.
00:25:31.640The goal is not to have an accurate representation of the will of the people.
00:25:35.960The goal is to form stable government.
00:25:42.920So the emphasis is on generating a small number of parties with a greater number of MPs in parliament or representation.
00:25:51.180So you find that the second and third preference votes don't really count unless there's a draw at the top, between the top two candidates.
00:26:05.680But really, it's whoever gets the most votes wins, and anything below that second and third preferences for other parties gets dismissed.
00:26:12.860So it's kind of like a race to the finish line, as opposed to—it's like a race where there's only a gold medal and there's no silver or bronze.
00:27:46.220Let me throw a little bit of cold water on what Charles was talking about earlier in the sense of this, you know, Britain is ripe for something new.
00:27:56.440I agree to a large extent, but I also don't want us to underestimate what we just saw last night in a real collapse of British nationalism.
00:28:11.780And I also want to jump onto one of my hobby horses, which is my criticism of Euroscepticism, because I think we have seen two things that are very related.
00:28:26.060And that is first the collapse of the BNP, but also just this problem of making Euroscepticism the center of any kind of right-wing ideology or right-wing populist movement.
00:28:42.460And I can remember back to June 23rd of last year, and that was Brexit Day.
00:28:51.340And we forget about it now, but Nigel Farage actually conceded the election on that afternoon.
00:29:56.860So UKIP achieved its goal, and now it is nothing.
00:30:03.580And that is, I guess, maybe not a huge problem for us in itself, but it actually is a tremendous problem for us.
00:30:12.080And I think it has actually been a terrible wound on nationalism in Britain.
00:30:18.360And obviously we can always recover from something like that, but I don't think we should also underestimate the depth of this wound.
00:30:25.100And that is that, you know, I have been doing this for a long time, and I have certainly been paying attention, close attention to, you know,
00:30:33.380Euro nationalism and nationalism in the United States for, you know, most of my adult life, really ever since graduating from college back in 2001.
00:30:42.740And I can remember getting very excited about the BNP in the mid-2000s.
00:30:51.000Nick Griffin was not perfect, but he was riding high.
00:33:09.780He apparently had no connection to even like basic bitch populism.
00:33:15.360And so basically nationalism was channeled into this single issue thing where we viewed Brussels and Europe as the problem and everything was going to be fine if we just got out of this big bureaucracy, blah, blah, blah.
00:33:43.900And all the British nationalist eggs were put into that basket.
00:33:48.080And so now we're in just this like malaise.
00:33:51.360And, you know, there's no discernible British nationalist force.
00:33:56.480I mean, as Charles was saying before we turn the recorder on, I mean, there's, you know, our friend Matthew Tate and there's, you know, the London Forum or there's some certainly some great individuals, Adrian Davis, so on.
00:34:11.680But there's no discernible institution or force that you can point to and say this is British nationalism.
00:34:19.700And I'm not saying this is some American chauvinist who wants to piss on our cousins.
00:34:35.500And so I just think this is the – these are the problems.
00:34:39.720These are the problems of channeling nationalism, A, into civic nationalism, but also into just single issue kind of libertarian stuff and euroskepticism.
00:34:51.660I just – I don't think it – you know, we've seen what it wrought, and it's never a good idea.
00:34:57.520And if we're going to, you know, if we're all going to be part of – you know, I can't even set foot on the island, as we know, due to Theresa May, who banned me when she was interior minister, that probably says something about her.
00:35:10.300But, you know, I won't set foot on the island, but I certainly want to be a part of, in some way, an identitarian movement in Britain.
00:35:42.640And I actually think it should be bigger than nationalism.
00:35:44.960I would propose that we need something that's almost like an international party or, at the very least, an international coalition between parties where we think on a racial basis.
00:36:03.920We think certainly – I think in identitarian lines.
00:36:07.260And we think on a civilizational basis as well.
00:36:27.100But I just – it's very important that that void be filled with something that is animated by our ideas and not petty nationalism, not neoliberalism, you know, not metax cuts, and not Euroskepticism.
00:36:53.740You guys can vehemently disagree if you want.
00:36:56.040Well, no, I agree with what you're saying.
00:36:58.980And it's like, I don't know, it's like poking, like, that body, like, you know, do something.
00:37:05.880You're looking at the U.K. and it's – there's just nothing – you know, after Brexit, now it's like, now what?
00:37:13.620Now you go back to – you have these lackluster elections over – or you're going to get free lunch or you're going to get free lunch in a pudding, you know?
00:37:26.040It seems like there's such major issues still that have not been addressed in the United Kingdom.
00:37:34.600And it just – to me, it seems like something has to happen.
00:37:39.580And so, you know, we're talking about how it's like this – it's ultimately a two-party system now.
00:37:44.400Well, then something has to happen within the conservative party, much like how the Trump movement happened within the Republican Party.
00:37:54.460You kind of need to have just like a hostile takeover of one of these political vehicles in order to make something happen – to make something happen that matters.
00:38:06.360You mean you could form your own little, you know, party like a – was it Jack Buckby created the, you know, Liberty GB Party or whatever?
00:38:20.340I mean it's just like that's a symbol, if anything, these little parties that – it's like the Libertarian Party in the United States.
00:38:28.940Yeah, it's quaint and I'm sure they have great ideas, but they're never going to accomplish anything ever.
00:38:34.440So something needs to happen in the United Kingdom and I think if, you know, basically you need some type of a strong man figure who's going to carry out a hostile takeover of the conservative party and that's a tall order considering, you know, these labor and conservative parties are like major institutions in the United Kingdom,
00:39:02.800similar to how the Democrats and Republicans are, are there any based billionaires in the United Kingdom who are going to take over the conservative party?
00:39:14.700But also then it's like the identitarian question in the United Kingdom is we need something, you know, beyond the London former traditional Britain group.
00:39:29.120I mean all throughout continental Europe, young people are going into the various identitarian movements.
00:39:37.020In Eastern Europe, it's, you know, it's like light years ahead of us in terms of where the youth are and where the Overton window is.
00:39:45.940In the United States, Donald Trump won the white millennial vote.
00:39:52.280Generation Z is supposed to be the most right-wing generation of young people to come up in the United States in a long time.
00:40:00.960And then we look over at Profitius Albion and it's like young people are voting labor and they're like having anxiety attacks because Brexit just passed.
00:40:12.420Just on that point that Richard raised earlier where he sort of had this idea that perhaps the British could move to a more international white identity or something that sort of reaches beyond British parochialism, something to that effect.
00:40:34.700That's going to be a stumbling block and it's going to be very difficult to achieve any kind of move in that direction.
00:40:42.400And the reason is that the British have for a long time developed a habit and have become expert at defining themselves against other whites.
00:40:58.160And just as a personal anecdote, I remember my own grandmother before she died, one of the last things actually that she said to me, it was my family's Scottish.
00:41:10.660And she had said to me, you know, the Scots are nothing like the Irish.
00:41:16.700Because in earlier years, I come from a military family, she and my grandfather had been stationed for a while in Northern Ireland, along with many different other countries.
00:41:29.580But she didn't much like her time there and it stuck with her and she didn't much like the English either.
00:41:37.340Now, in interacting with Welsh people, and I have some Welsh in me as well, and English, and Scottish and Irish, and also from observing history and reading around the subject, going back to how the English remember the First World War, the Second World War,
00:42:00.760or even how they relate stories about Napoleon and celebrating Waterloo and Trafalgar, if it comes down to insulting the French or insulting a Pakistani, they'll insult the Frenchman first.
00:42:14.520Or they'll insult the Germans before they insult the Nigerian.
00:42:18.560Or they'll insult their direct neighbor, the Scots.
00:42:22.400I mean, the number one so-called hate crime in Scotland is not against non-white ethnic minorities.
00:42:29.220It's Scots giving English people a battering outside pubs in Glasgow and Edinburgh.
00:42:35.040So, you know, the Scots tend to be more anti-English than anything else.
00:42:40.180The English tend to be more anti-Irish or anti-Scottish than anything else.
00:42:45.640And it's this kind of, they get, it's like the Brits are consumed and so easily diverted into really parochial types of nationalism.
00:42:56.080Like, like, extravagantly parochial forms of nationalism.
00:43:01.720And yes, there are Brits who think along ethnic lines and aren't caught in that trap.
00:43:08.960But in some ways, UKIP has died the same death that they caused the BNP to die of.
00:43:14.600And it's that whenever you, the BNP was always sort of ethnically focused.
00:43:21.080But in the period in which it became really successful, it adopted an almost UKIP-like aura.
00:43:28.340So it was kind of forced to adopt a constitution where it had to let non-white members in.
00:43:34.040And they started parading Sikhs wearing turbans in front of the camera as BNP members and stuff like this.
00:43:43.520And it was, you know, it wasn't quite full civic nationalism, but it was drifting in that direction.
00:43:47.720Well, a lot of the voters then for the BNP that made it successful were of the UKIP type.
00:43:53.480All those BNP voters were not convinced ethnic nationalists.
00:43:57.500They weren't deeply rooted in an ethnic sense of identity.
00:44:01.340They were just civic nationalists who voted for something that looked like civic nationalism.
00:44:05.820Oh, well, the BNP, you know, have the Sikh guy and he's mouthing platitudes.
00:44:11.060And the BNP can't be that bad, although the media are saying nasty things about them.
00:44:14.840Well, as soon as those civic nationalists were presented with a slightly more media palatable option in the form of UKIP,
00:44:23.720they abandoned the BNP pretty much overnight and they went to UKIP.
00:44:27.880Well, once the UKIP's raison d'etre was achieved with Brexit and you had to look at the rest of the party,
00:44:36.160it succumbed to pretty much the same malaise.
00:44:39.940It's like, OK, the voters just passed on through.
00:44:43.660They started off completely as Tories going back in the 80s and early 90s.
00:44:49.520Then they sort of slowly bled into the BNP and they drifted out of the BNP into UKIP and now they're drifting right back into the Tory party again.
00:44:58.000It's like they've went in this little sojourn through these smaller parties that offered a slightly more edgy type of nationalism than that offered by conservatism.
00:45:06.580But it's like I'm looking at the British scene at the moment and I'm thinking, if there's any lesson to be gained here, it's that you set your stall out.
00:46:25.300You know, the Trump that we've gotten isn't really too different from what we would have had under Ted Cruz or Jeb or even Hillary.
00:46:35.180I mean, the missile strikes on Syria, his foreign trip outside of the, you know, bullying of European leaders, it was basically what Hillary would have done.
00:46:46.940And so, yeah, I mean, there is like the current establishment is stable and we shouldn't underestimate that.
00:46:57.120On the other hand, you could also make the argument that, you know, whatever Trump has been like over the past four months or so, he still is Trump.
00:47:09.100I mean, he still did achieve this amazing victory that we should never discount.
00:47:15.960And that maybe the way of doing this is this top down, you know, bringing putting a wild man in charge and just doing engaging in a top down revolution of the existing structure.
00:48:07.980It's like, I don't know how many people that, you know, I'll talk to a journalist or others and they'll stand there, you know, agog, you know, when they're like, is it true that you, I remember our press conference.
00:48:18.800They're like, is it true that you think all women want to be taken by a strong man?
00:48:44.800It's just, it's to be radically mainstream.
00:48:47.140And that is the way that we get our message out there.
00:48:49.420I mean, I've just, just all the pussyfooting has just gained us nothing.
00:48:54.200And, and also all these guys, I don't know how many people I know who, who get jobs in the conservative movement and then don't really do anything for us.
00:49:03.240I mean, it's just kind of like, you know, I guess it's great that you're earning a pretty decent salary and all that kind of stuff.
00:49:11.640But, you know, you could earn more money doing other shit.
00:49:16.180And I don't know, I do think that the strategy that has worked has, has been the, the uncucked strategy and the no apologies and the willingness to say things that are, that are to normie ears outlandish.
00:49:32.000Um, and I mean, obviously this is like, you know, this is like the Richard Spencer philosophy is, you know, shock the bourgeoisie, but, but I look, obviously I, I, it's my personality for one thing, but also I, it, I think this is clearly what we need to do.
00:49:48.020We, we don't, there isn't going to be some long march that we, we're going to be able to like 50 years we'll wake up and it's like, oh, look, we slowly transform society back.
00:49:59.620I mean, it, we are going to be confronted rather dramatically when we attempt to do anything and we're going to be, you know, confronted maybe even violently when we try to do things like this.
00:50:12.120Um, and we've seen the first taste of that, uh, this past year.
00:50:16.240So, you know, this is, this is where we are and, uh, we, we need to recognize that.
00:50:22.640Um, I, I was saying one of the things I was, I was thinking of is that there, there should be a structure in place.
00:50:28.560And this is why I was talking about like an international party or, or an international coalition that does have like a, that is a body and has a hierarchy.
00:50:38.300Um, but as, as just a, a shadow party, I mean, even if these part, even if these, you know, uh, national parties aren't winning elections, there, there is a structure in place that could take power.
00:50:53.320Um, when that opportunity presents itself and, you know, again, um, I, I do think that, you know, we're being confronted on a racial basis.
00:51:03.880We aren't being confronted on a, on a, you know, merely ethnic basis and in that sense of the word ethnic in a sense of like, you know, Welsh or Irish or what have you.
00:51:13.820And so, um, we, you know, we need to obviously race and ethnic, ethnic are the same word at some level, but we, you know, use them different ways.
00:51:21.220Um, we, uh, we, we need to, we, we need to think on those terms and think politically in those terms.
00:51:28.700I just think, I find it kind of exciting.
00:51:30.040Like I'm not really blackpilled, uh, by anything.
00:51:33.200And maybe that also is my personality, but I just, I'm kind of like, look, this is, you know, we, we just saw what happened.
00:51:40.860We, we, we see a definite story that took place and let's move forward and think what is next.
00:51:48.440Like, how can we be more radical and more daring and not just like reproduce the BNP.
00:51:56.640And, and I'll actually defend Nick Griffin.
00:51:58.920I don't look, I am not directly involved in any of those things.
00:52:03.140And so I, I just hear bits and snippets and I, and I certainly have talked with people who are, uh, let's just say not fans of Nick Griffin.
00:52:11.660And, and I have no doubt that he made a lot of mistakes and he's a flawed guy.
00:52:31.120And, and yeah, I mean, as you're saying, I, I, I doubt it.
00:52:34.380And so I think maybe that model was wrong and that we need a new business model.
00:52:39.860You know, it's not always like the CEO of a corporation.
00:52:42.100It's not like, you know, BlackBerry went from like, sorry for the stupid tech analogy, but like BlackBerry went from like ruling the roost.
00:53:05.740And, and I, I, I, that's, that's the way that I see these, these ethno-nationalist parties.
00:53:10.780It's just kind of like, well, we, we actually did try that and they looked like they were achieving success.
00:53:15.720I mean, I was a, you know, I was, uh, I wasn't on Twitter back in 2006, but if I were, I would be tweeting out dank, you know, dank, uh, Griffin memes.
00:53:28.420Uh, so, you know, it's just, we, we are where we are.
00:53:32.180And it's just incumbent upon us to always rethink things and always come up with new ideas.
00:53:37.140And, and so anyway, that's, that is my, that is my perspective on this whole thing.
00:53:41.620I'm not absolutely not black billed, but I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna also be one of these conservatives that almost think it's a virtue to go down to the ship.
00:53:49.680It's like, the ship is sinking, but we must stay, we're the captain and let's just stay on board for the, you know, we signed up for this.
00:53:59.200So let's die with, you know, I mean, no, it's like, you know, like maybe bail the ship out or get in a lifeboat or, or, you know, you know, uh, I don't know what to say.
00:54:11.920Like there, there is a virtue to being a flexible and, and creative and, uh, and not going down to the ship.
00:54:20.340Well, if we want to stick with that analogy, I think that one of the ways, one of the only, just to start with the, the Britain can keep its ship afloat or nationalism, British nationalism can keep its ship afloat.
00:54:31.920Is if it throws Nigel Farage overboard, because he is, he's, as far as I'm concerned, a big obstacle.
00:54:39.840And you saw the tweet that I put out the other, the other thing yesterday, because he had tweeted something like the conservative party needs a leader that believes in Brexit.
00:54:48.260And he's, he's, he's, I just have this horrible feeling that he's going to obstruct British nationalism for years because Charles was mentioning earlier about the need for this kind of a strong man character to come in and shake things up.
00:55:01.920Well, Farage is just one of these kind of like doppelgangers where he's just there and he kind of, he has some of the ambience and he's got some of the charisma, but he's just diverting and occupying space.
00:55:15.060Like he's just, he's, he's obstructing space when someone else could come in and use that space so much more usefully.
00:55:22.680I mean, Farage is not the man he sees.
00:55:55.440And suck in so many votes and we just keep playing the same game and he's not going to be radical and he's just going to be a typical Euro skeptic Tory.
00:56:03.080I'm very happy to meet someone who's more hostile towards UKIP and Farage than myself.
00:56:10.640I'm, I, I like being a moderate that I always liked that position.
00:56:25.180I was, I was, I, I was a member of the BMP for a while too.
00:56:28.640I'm a Jews paying member, a meeting attending member.
00:56:33.020And, uh, just as things were looking rosy, Farage sank the whole fucking ship.
00:56:40.740Let's, before we go, uh, I'm, I'm curious because again, you're, you're more embedded in this than, than Charles and I are.
00:56:49.020But, uh, just in terms of like short-term, you know, petty politics, house of cards stuff, uh, do you think that Theresa May will be out after this?
00:57:06.180She, she, she's, that, that same arrogance that caused her to call the snap election will cause her to cling on for, for dear life to her position.
00:57:22.720And unless something absolutely catastrophic happens in the next five years, uh, in, during the course of her government, I can't see her relinquishing the reins of power within the Conservative Party at all.
00:57:37.240Do you think Boris Johnson has a chance of, of, of achieving a coup?
00:57:45.500I think that there are, I think that Boris himself, uh, likes being the clown, but he's, he's like, he reminds me a lot of the Joker in the dark night where he's speaking with Batman and Batman and sort of confronting him on his goals and what he wants.
00:58:00.460And the Joker says, I'm just a dog chasing a car.
00:58:03.880If I caught the car, I wouldn't know what to do with it.
00:58:06.140Boris Johnson is the dog chasing the car.
00:58:08.200He likes the limelight and he likes the excitement of the chase and everything else that comes with that and being a flash character and being the eccentric.
00:58:17.200But he strikes me as someone who, if you placed a great amount of responsibility onto his shoulders, he would collapse at the house of cards.
00:58:32.800The, uh, we should remember also this, this Brexiteer, uh, it was like four years before I was making videos, uh, in favor of Turkey entering the European Union.
00:58:43.740So he was actually pro EU and pro Turkey entrance because he's part, because he's part Turk.
00:59:09.640Any, any, any so-called British conservative or nationalist who advocates admitting Turkey to the European Union is a liar or he's completely insane.
00:59:27.300Uh, you know, he, he made an argument that is actually true from our perspective, from our perspective, has very different resonances to say the least, where he said, you know, Turkey has all this, these great European traditions.
00:59:39.620It was once the Eastern half of the Roman empire.
00:59:42.520And it's like, yeah, that's why we should take it back, you know, kick the Turks out.
00:59:49.600Uh, but, but he's like, you know, how could we prevent, uh, Turkey from entering the EU?
01:00:18.960So another, uh, another say half decade of staring at Theresa May.
01:00:25.000Yeah, I mean, it's, it's, it's one of these weird symptoms of modern political culture that the most stern and unwavering characters within the conservative party are women.
01:00:37.080Um, because you've got Theresa May and then below, who was a tyrant in the home office.
01:00:40.800And then in her position, you've got, uh, Amber Rudd, who is, uh, or was, um, who's just as intransigent and bullish and faux or pseudo masculine in how she behaves and the kind of policies that she proposes.
01:01:26.740Well, you know, in, we can celebrate the fact that, uh, in the 2017 UK election, uh, the most amount of women MEPs have been selected more than ever before.
01:01:42.080So this is the March of Progress and it's female, you sexist bigots.
01:04:19.540You know, they've just, it's just become just another globalist state, globalist project, um, that is becoming rapidly multicultural to the point where it might be one of the first states in Europe to, uh, for its native population to, to go into a minority status.
01:04:40.320And this is the, we're coming right back to this issue of petty nationalism.
01:04:44.980You can become so absorbed in defining yourself against other whites that you just cannot see, or it becomes very difficult to see the dangers around you from, uh, those who aren't the objects of your pet hates.
01:05:05.640I, I think there's also, I was, I was talking with Hannibal Bateman about this.
01:05:10.500We were, um, uh, I, I think, uh, drinking, uh, red wine and listening to Morrissey and, uh, we were, uh, musing on, you know, different petty nationalisms, but we were listening to Morrissey's great.
01:05:23.840I mean, I, I like Morrissey's whole work, but, uh, I, I definitely, the National Front Disco is a really great song.
01:05:30.560Um, and, um, it's, you know, English for the English and there is something where, you know, not all petty nationalisms are equal.
01:05:39.400In fact, um, that there's something, there's something about being an underdog petty nationalist, being a Irish nationalist or a Scottish nationalist or, or something like that, where it does have this tendency towards leftism because it, it, it, it's always coming from that underdog mentality.
01:05:59.660You know, it's like, oh, the, the cruel English tyrants who ruled us or, you know, potato famine or something like that.
01:06:06.080Um, but being a, uh, being an English nationalist is different and much like being a German nationalist, um, being a true English nationalist, you know, means a desire to rule.
01:06:20.260Um, and, uh, I, I, I think that's what our nationalism has to be.
01:06:26.260It, it can't just be this like endless brothers wars or endless victimhood.
01:06:31.680It, it needs to be a, um, we, we want to rule for us.
01:06:38.040And, um, yeah, and I, I, I, I, that, that is the future, hopefully, or we're done for.
01:06:44.740And just on that note, the period in which all these petty nationalisms within the United Kingdom dissolved and disappeared was the, the period of empire.
01:06:57.060So the, the, the pact that was made was let's rule together.
01:07:00.080So they did Britain, you know, was, was forged to rule together.
01:07:05.560So Scots and English and Irish and Welsh went to Africa and went to South America and went, went to different parts of the world together to rule and to, to, to take land.
01:07:18.520And that, all those petty nationalisms that were, uh, put to bed really in the exception of Ireland in the 18th, 19th centuries, all bubbled up again in the 20th century because empire collapsed, self-pitying, uh, populations in Ireland, Scotland, and Wales came to the fore and started reaching out to other self-pitying narratives and ideologies and by the healthy dose of, of Marxism.
01:07:53.200Very, this could be a whole other podcast of that interesting dialectic between nationalism and empire, because it's the, you could look at a different, a similar experience with Russia, where you have a country that's basically born as an empire.
01:08:08.960Uh, German nationalism is intrinsically, it's a, it got a Prussianism, but it's a, it's an imperial sense.
01:08:19.720So there, there is a, there is actually a fascinating dialectic, um, between that, that idea of a, of a peoplehood and that ultimately that ideal idea of ruling.
01:08:30.700Um, and then there's this kind of also interesting dialectic between petty nationalism, which on its surface is ethnic and racist, you could say like, you know, Ireland for the Irish, but which has this strange relationship with multiculturalism, mass immigration, Marxism, et cetera.
01:08:51.580But I think that's a podcast for another time.
01:08:54.200So, uh, gentlemen, uh, this was excellent and, uh, we need to do more of these.
01:09:01.180So, uh, I will, uh, talk to both of you soon.