Rebel News Podcast - Andrew Lawton on the challenges of journalism in 2019

00:00:00.000 Tonight, what's the state of freedom of the press and freedom of speech in Canada?

00:00:19.180 A feature interview with our friend Andrew Lawton.

00:00:22.420 It's December 30th and this is the Ezra Levant Show.

00:00:25.620 Why should others go to jail when you're a biggest carbon consumer I know?

00:00:31.520 There's 8,500 customers here and you won't give them an answer.

00:00:35.600 The only thing I have to say to the government, the wire publisher, is because it's my bloody right to do so.

00:00:46.380 Good evening, Prime Minister. Andrew Lawton from True North.

00:00:49.240 This afternoon, a federal court judge ruled that I had a right to be here to cover this debate as a journalist,

00:00:54.900 despite opposition from your Attorney General.

00:00:58.080 This comes after two weeks of me being kicked out of or not allowed into your campaign rallies.

00:01:03.180 The Conservatives have criticized you for being not as advertised.

00:01:06.940 You've advertised yourself as a champion of a press freedom.

00:01:09.840 Will you take a stand right now, sir, as the leader of the Liberal Party

00:01:12.400 and allow me to cover your campaign like every other journalist?

00:01:15.180 We are a party and we are a country that respects journalistic rights

00:01:18.540 and respects the freedom of the press.

00:01:20.860 We will continue to.

00:01:21.840 So is that a yes, sir?

00:01:22.860 We are a party and a country that respects the hard work and the freedom of the press.

00:01:27.300 We will continue to.

00:01:28.060 Then what time is your plane leaving tomorrow, sir?

00:01:30.320 Well, that is a clip of our friend Andrew Lawton from True North

00:01:34.900 putting a question to Justin Trudeau

00:01:37.660 at the leaders' debates in the federal election in October.

00:01:41.600 Now, Andrew was not supposed to be there,

00:01:45.360 just like our rebel reporters,

00:01:47.140 Kian Bexte and David Menzies,

00:01:48.480 were not supposed to be there.

00:01:50.340 Because short days earlier, the Federal Debate Commission,

00:01:55.340 a government agency handpicked by Justin Trudeau,

00:02:00.180 declared that the three of us, that is, Andrew Lawton, Kian and David,

00:02:04.940 were not real journalists.

00:02:07.500 And so we were banned.

00:02:08.780 So Andrew, Kian and David went to court, the federal court,

00:02:13.840 and a justice, Russell Zinn was his name, of the federal court,

00:02:18.000 gave us an emergency injunction requiring that government agency to let us in.

00:02:24.000 And the rest was history.

00:02:25.480 If you can believe it,

00:02:26.940 Andrew, Kian and David asked more questions of Trudeau

00:02:31.080 than any other news network.

00:02:33.680 That's just one of a hundred stories of censorship and free speech in battle in Canada,

00:02:40.340 a subject we'll go deep on with,

00:02:42.820 with Andrew himself, who joins us now via Skype.

00:02:46.200 Andrew, great to see you again.

00:02:47.460 And once again, congratulations on being the pointy end of the spear on free speech.

00:02:52.280 Well, to you as well.

00:02:54.580 I mean, this was in many cases a very dismal year for free speech.

00:02:58.780 But I also think there were some positives that we'll get to,

00:03:01.340 in that how often we had the opportunity specifically to raise the alarm

00:03:06.380 and sound the alarm about these issues.

00:03:08.180 So the debate clip, the glory days of the campaign,

00:03:11.120 was just one of several examples this year

00:03:13.100 where we really got to shine the spotlight on that.

00:03:15.080 So it was unfortunate in some ways, but very fortunate in others.

00:03:19.200 Yeah, well, I'm really glad that you care about that.

00:03:21.500 And I know we all say we care about freedom of speech.

00:03:25.080 Certainly, if you ask any journalist, they'll all say,

00:03:28.620 oh, yes, yes, yes, I care.

00:03:29.960 And they'll do that because they know they're supposed to say that.

00:03:33.000 And they care about their own free speech.

00:03:36.960 But it's tougher to care about free speech for someone else,

00:03:39.760 especially someone else you might find irritating

00:03:42.600 or even contrary to your own views.

00:03:44.840 And that's what I think is slipping away.

00:03:46.840 I think that journalists are very fastidious about their own freedoms.

00:03:51.500 But if it's a rival journalist, especially in this age of social media censorship

00:03:55.120 and bailout money, I think most other journalists have decided,

00:04:00.140 yeah, they don't care so much about that.

00:04:01.660 Do you think I'm being too pessimistic, Andrew?

00:04:04.240 Well, I think the answer to that is always it depends.

00:04:06.840 I mean, there are going to be individual voices that do care

00:04:09.500 and that are on side with that.

00:04:11.700 And there are going to be, at the same time, people that don't.

00:04:14.420 And more importantly, I think the institutions themselves

00:04:17.040 are growing less supportive of free speech.

00:04:21.020 I mean, one of the highlights of my year, quite frankly,

00:04:23.440 was being in London for the Global Conference for Media Freedom

00:04:26.720 alongside you and Sheila Gunn-Reed of Rebel.

00:04:30.000 And we saw in that little few days of the conference,

00:04:34.740 reporters from the mainstream media actually stand up for press freedom.

00:04:38.160 As many people remember, we have the standing up for free speech

00:04:42.500 and press freedom rights for Sheila and I

00:04:44.820 when the ministry of Chrystia Freeland's office

00:04:47.880 was trying to block us from a press conference.

00:04:50.820 And that was a profoundly impactful moment

00:04:52.840 when the Globe and Mail, CTV, CBC, Al Jazeera, English,

00:04:56.740 they're all standing firm and saying,

00:04:58.300 listen, we're not covering this press conference

00:05:00.120 unless everyone is there.

00:05:01.500 And I think that that moment was a hugely positive one.

00:05:06.960 But you fast forward a couple of months,

00:05:09.040 you're in the federal court,

00:05:10.760 Candace Malcolm's in the federal court,

00:05:12.520 I'm holed up in a hotel room in Ottawa

00:05:14.300 wondering if we'll get to go to the debate.

00:05:16.320 And the sounds we heard from the mainstream media

00:05:19.200 were non-existent.

00:05:20.600 It was silence from them.

00:05:22.400 And I think that we need more like that London story

00:05:25.440 and less like the Ottawa story.

00:05:27.300 Yeah, that London story was truly amazing.

00:05:29.760 For one flicker of a moment,

00:05:31.920 I thought that maybe the tide was turning for freedom.

00:05:35.400 And it was at a media freedom conference.

00:05:38.760 And the fact that Chrystia Freeland

00:05:40.480 was trying to block journalists at that conference,

00:05:43.360 I think that combined with the fact

00:05:45.600 that it was you and Sheila,

00:05:47.360 so it seemed like it was not just one person,

00:05:50.480 it was a whole thing.

00:05:51.780 Let me play a clip of that

00:05:52.960 because Sheila caught most of that on tape.

00:05:55.800 Here, take a look at this.

00:05:56.780 Okay, so, um,

00:05:59.360 Glover Mail,

00:06:00.760 um,

00:06:02.220 World War,

00:06:03.380 and CTD,

00:06:04.520 Altaxera,

00:06:05.380 CBC,

00:06:06.040 and the National Conference Game.

00:06:07.780 And the other?

00:06:08.540 What about the rest?

00:06:09.120 The rest of us?

00:06:10.100 The rest of us will have to stay back.

00:06:11.360 No, I don't think we all go.

00:06:12.620 No, that's nonsense.

00:06:13.560 No, no, no, no.

00:06:14.100 That is nonsense.

00:06:14.520 We all go.

00:06:15.640 That's,

00:06:16.220 let's take us to the room

00:06:17.460 and we can see if we can...

00:06:18.380 No, we're not going, Brittany.

00:06:19.420 We're just not.

00:06:19.880 We're all going.

00:06:20.360 This is a media freedom conference. 0.98

00:06:21.700 Yeah, this is ridiculous. 0.75

00:06:22.520 We just don't do that. 0.91

00:06:23.160 I thought that was a beautiful moment.

00:06:27.140 But as you pointed out a moment ago,

00:06:28.940 when we were in court

00:06:30.640 in Federal Court of Canada in Toronto,

00:06:33.180 there were no interveners.

00:06:35.060 And I'm old enough to know, Andrew,

00:06:37.120 that it was only 10 years ago

00:06:38.900 that if one media company

00:06:41.120 got in trouble

00:06:41.960 in a way that could set a bad precedent,

00:06:44.800 they all went in

00:06:46.160 as a coalition of journalists.

00:06:47.940 Like, you would often see one lawyer

00:06:50.440 who would go to the court

00:06:52.000 to intervene and say,

00:06:53.620 Your Honor,

00:06:54.040 I'm here on behalf of a coalition

00:06:55.580 of the National Post

00:06:57.300 and the Globe and Mail

00:06:58.100 and the Toronto Sun

00:06:58.980 and CTV and CBC.

00:07:00.440 Like, it was almost a standing order

00:07:02.720 that everyone,

00:07:04.700 all for one and one for all,

00:07:06.340 they wouldn't,

00:07:07.020 you wouldn't see five lawyers

00:07:08.520 for five newspapers,

00:07:09.680 but you would see one excellent lawyer

00:07:11.820 who was instructed

00:07:13.900 by all the big media companies

00:07:15.780 to fight for the precedent.

00:07:19.160 That day is gone, Andrew.

00:07:21.720 I mean, maybe on some matters,

00:07:23.440 but it was just your lawyer

00:07:25.560 and our lawyers

00:07:27.580 in that room

00:07:29.100 fighting the government lawyers

00:07:30.360 by ourselves,

00:07:31.080 no other media

00:07:32.000 and not even civil liberties groups

00:07:34.160 like the Canadian 0.82

00:07:34.800 Civil Liberties Association.

00:07:36.780 That made me,

00:07:38.420 that took away all the love

00:07:39.600 I felt at that London free speech event

00:07:41.960 and replaced it with sadness.

00:07:43.200 Well, I will say to the credit

00:07:45.980 of the Canadian Civil Liberties Association,

00:07:47.940 they did put a message of support out

00:07:50.420 near the end of the case.

00:07:52.480 I think the case had been heard,

00:07:53.760 but the decision hadn't been announced yet

00:07:55.340 and they've been supportive since.

00:07:57.300 But I do agree that there was a time

00:07:59.140 when these things would be a given,

00:08:01.100 that press freedom's under attack.

00:08:03.360 It's like, you know,

00:08:04.780 a rampage of press

00:08:06.720 and other media companies

00:08:08.300 to the courtroom to say,

00:08:09.620 we're standing on principle.

00:08:10.880 And that hasn't happened now.

00:08:12.600 And I do think that the concerns

00:08:14.720 I would raise on this

00:08:16.460 are that everyone's so focused

00:08:18.560 on the context of what happens

00:08:21.520 if we support rebels' right

00:08:23.000 to press freedom.

00:08:24.220 Oh, I don't know if we want to do that.

00:08:25.860 And that's very dangerous

00:08:26.920 because the whole point of freedom

00:08:28.080 is that it's not supposed

00:08:29.000 to be contingent

00:08:29.920 on whether you like or dislike

00:08:31.420 the person, the outlet,

00:08:32.680 or the position.

00:08:33.740 And now it is.

00:08:34.680 And we saw this

00:08:35.520 after the London example

00:08:37.020 where people were actually

00:08:39.240 Twitter harassing

00:08:40.700 the reporters

00:08:41.620 who stood up for Sheila and I

00:08:43.380 because they're saying,

00:08:45.040 oh my goodness,

00:08:45.600 this is just this

00:08:46.260 right-wing media conspiracy,

00:08:47.660 which I find lackable

00:08:48.820 for many reasons.

00:08:50.000 You know,

00:08:50.560 they're legitimizing rebels.

00:08:52.120 Same as when you had

00:08:53.040 your op-ed on press freedom

00:08:54.260 in the Globe and Mail.

00:08:55.300 Oh, right.

00:08:55.500 Again, I'd say that's a win

00:08:56.880 for free speech,

00:08:57.720 you having that.

00:08:58.780 But then people say,

00:08:59.600 oh, but you're legitimizing them.

00:09:01.620 And they're more concerned

00:09:02.840 about what it means

00:09:04.360 to their culture battle

00:09:05.720 than what it means

00:09:07.040 for the broader culture.

00:09:08.180 Yeah, you know,

00:09:09.180 I'm glad you reminded me

00:09:10.380 of that Globe and Mail op-ed.

00:09:11.500 I was delighted

00:09:12.120 to be published there

00:09:13.440 because I was telling

00:09:14.620 the story of censorship.

00:09:15.920 I was telling the story

00:09:16.780 of how, in particular,

00:09:19.000 we were kept out,

00:09:20.180 me and Kian were kept out

00:09:22.100 of a Chrystia Freeland

00:09:23.060 press conference

00:09:23.760 and had to be sort of

00:09:24.960 smuggled in by

00:09:25.940 U.S. Secretary of State

00:09:27.580 Mike Pompeo.

00:09:28.440 We went in with

00:09:29.020 his media delegation.

00:09:30.660 I thought that was 0.52

00:09:31.440 really pitiful and lame.

00:09:32.400 I wrote about it

00:09:32.940 in the Globe

00:09:33.500 and the reaction

00:09:34.820 was almost comical.

00:09:37.500 It was like they were

00:09:38.780 playing right into

00:09:39.640 my narrative.

00:09:40.420 My narrative.

00:09:41.700 The union,

00:09:43.660 the Unifor union

00:09:45.260 for the Globe and Mail

00:09:46.500 wrote a scorching letter

00:09:49.060 to their own editor

00:09:51.440 outraged that they would

00:09:53.380 let me have an op-ed.

00:09:54.880 They didn't challenge

00:09:55.640 what I said in the op-ed.

00:09:57.280 They were just angry

00:09:58.360 that I was given

00:09:59.280 a voice at all.

00:10:01.000 They proved my point. 0.86

00:10:02.780 I think that's a very

00:10:04.120 dark sign, too,

00:10:05.300 that a media union,

00:10:07.580 the only thing

00:10:08.860 they have to say

00:10:09.400 about free speech

00:10:10.140 is let's have less of it.

00:10:11.860 That was in some ways

00:10:13.720 a crazier moment

00:10:15.140 than any.

00:10:16.220 Yeah.

00:10:16.760 Well, it's an interesting

00:10:17.900 point you raise

00:10:18.680 about the backdoor way

00:10:20.460 into that press conference

00:10:21.700 being through the U.S.

00:10:23.100 Because when I was

00:10:23.780 going through my ordeal,

00:10:25.440 which you and I spoke about

00:10:26.500 during the federal

00:10:27.900 election campaign,

00:10:29.120 just to give the brief

00:10:30.120 primer for those

00:10:30.940 not familiar with it,

00:10:31.780 I was banned from

00:10:32.780 covering Justin Trudeau's

00:10:34.760 campaign.

00:10:35.780 They said I wasn't

00:10:36.500 accredited media.

00:10:37.700 And at one point,

00:10:38.360 I think we actually

00:10:38.880 have the clip here,

00:10:40.160 I was denied entry

00:10:41.840 and then moments later

00:10:42.940 two students from,

00:10:44.440 I think they were

00:10:44.840 from a university

00:10:45.960 in the Burnaby area,

00:10:47.800 were allowed in.

00:10:48.780 And I think we have

00:10:49.440 that clip of them

00:10:50.360 trying to justify

00:10:51.420 why they did that.

00:10:52.580 Yeah, let's take a look

00:10:53.540 at that.

00:10:57.260 Hey.

00:10:58.060 I've been told,

00:10:58.740 unfortunately,

00:10:59.280 you're not an accredited media.

00:11:00.460 But you just asked her

00:11:01.620 to show you articles,

00:11:02.560 so I can show you

00:11:03.040 articles I've written.

00:11:03.700 I've just been told,

00:11:04.660 so unfortunately...

00:11:05.800 I know,

00:11:06.060 but why was the benchmark

00:11:06.860 for her just,

00:11:07.540 you know,

00:11:07.720 pull up on her phone

00:11:08.460 things she's written?

00:11:09.460 I can show you

00:11:09.960 things I've written

00:11:10.480 under my name.

00:11:11.040 My understanding

00:11:11.660 is that accreditation

00:11:12.580 wasn't provided,

00:11:13.540 so I'm so sorry.

00:11:14.420 But you just

00:11:14.860 provided accreditation.

00:11:16.440 They had already

00:11:17.540 been provided.

00:11:18.240 They were provided

00:11:18.740 the news release

00:11:19.440 and everything.

00:11:20.380 I was provided

00:11:20.880 the news release.

00:11:21.560 That's how I knew

00:11:21.920 where to come.

00:11:22.220 My instructions are...

00:11:23.600 That's how I knew

00:11:24.160 where to come.

00:11:24.740 Okay.

00:11:26.340 So you see right there,

00:11:27.540 they're making it up

00:11:28.280 as they go.

00:11:29.140 But the point about

00:11:29.860 the U.S. is important

00:11:30.980 because I had tried

00:11:31.880 to get a lot more

00:11:32.620 attention to this

00:11:33.520 in the Canadian media,

00:11:35.300 and I ended up

00:11:36.060 having to go to

00:11:37.640 the Washington Post,

00:11:39.000 which published

00:11:39.560 an op-ed of mine

00:11:40.420 on this,

00:11:41.480 and that was, again,

00:11:42.480 a great way to get

00:11:43.160 exposure to this.

00:11:44.240 But it's amazing

00:11:44.980 how there's a lot

00:11:45.760 more interest in this,

00:11:47.100 even in a Canadian context,

00:11:48.540 from Americans

00:11:49.460 than there is

00:11:50.660 from Canadians.

00:11:52.060 You're so right,

00:11:53.220 and it shouldn't

00:11:54.420 be that way.

00:11:55.020 I mean,

00:11:55.180 I know they have

00:11:55.760 their First Amendment,

00:11:56.700 and I'm very jealous

00:11:57.520 of that.

00:11:57.880 I wish we had it.

00:11:59.140 But we still do

00:12:00.360 have a history.

00:12:01.480 I mean,

00:12:01.960 I remember a few years

00:12:03.300 back,

00:12:03.560 I was trying to find

00:12:04.440 a true Canadian

00:12:05.480 free speech hero.

00:12:06.840 Well,

00:12:06.980 we actually do have one.

00:12:08.820 His name is Joseph Howe.

00:12:10.500 He was the first 0.93

00:12:11.360 premier of Nova Scotia,

00:12:13.000 but before that,

00:12:14.020 he was a newspaper

00:12:14.780 publisher who exposed

00:12:16.780 corruption in Halifax

00:12:18.440 City Hall,

00:12:19.180 and they prosecuted him

00:12:20.840 for seditious libel.

00:12:23.260 It was true 0.96

00:12:23.980 what he said,

00:12:24.920 but they prosecuted him

00:12:26.160 anyways.

00:12:27.360 The judge directed

00:12:29.140 a guilty verdict,

00:12:30.860 but the jury acquitted,

00:12:34.080 and he was his own lawyer.

00:12:36.640 And his final argument

00:12:39.560 was so powerful.

00:12:41.320 To this day,

00:12:42.020 you can read it

00:12:42.720 on the government

00:12:43.220 of the Nova Scotia's website.

00:12:45.200 Joseph Howe became a hero,

00:12:47.120 and it was a,

00:12:48.220 I would call that

00:12:48.860 the purest free speech moment

00:12:50.400 in Canadian history.

00:12:51.400 It was,

00:12:52.480 I don't know,

00:12:53.640 about a little bit less,

00:12:55.740 about 150 years ago.

00:12:58.460 And so it's a Canadian 0.96

00:13:01.120 thing too,

00:13:02.840 but I think it's been eroded

00:13:04.100 just like in the UK.

00:13:05.660 I think Canada and the UK

00:13:07.260 used to be

00:13:08.240 just as free speechy

00:13:10.020 as America,

00:13:11.380 but somehow both Canada

00:13:12.520 and the UK have lost it.

00:13:14.380 One of the most dismal things

00:13:16.540 that we see

00:13:17.400 in the Canadian government

00:13:19.100 narrative on free speech

00:13:20.860 is that freedom of speech

00:13:22.720 is an American concept.

00:13:24.360 And you'll remember this

00:13:25.140 actually back from

00:13:25.840 the glory days

00:13:26.560 of the Human Rights Commission fight.

00:13:28.560 One of the investigators

00:13:29.880 or commissioners

00:13:30.840 of the Canadian

00:13:31.540 Human Rights Commission,

00:13:33.020 Dean Stacey,

00:13:34.040 had testified

00:13:34.720 in a deposition

00:13:36.380 that,

00:13:37.100 oh, freedom of speech

00:13:37.800 is an American concept.

00:13:39.220 We don't have that here.

00:13:40.480 And more recently,

00:13:41.600 when the Parliament of Canada

00:13:43.420 was doing its study

00:13:44.500 on online hate,

00:13:45.900 basically the study

00:13:46.820 on whether to revive

00:13:47.880 Section 13,

00:13:49.100 there was the

00:13:50.200 Commissioner of the

00:13:51.180 Human Rights Commissions

00:13:52.040 of Saskatchewan

00:13:53.000 that got up

00:13:54.000 and said something

00:13:54.580 very similar,

00:13:55.340 that, well,

00:13:55.680 I mean,

00:13:55.840 we don't have

00:13:56.460 and we've never had

00:13:57.300 in Canada

00:13:57.760 a right to free speech.

00:13:59.360 Now, this is,

00:14:00.200 I think,

00:14:00.420 very important

00:14:01.180 because any time

00:14:02.000 someone tries

00:14:02.600 to split hairs 0.59

00:14:03.380 over freedom of speech

00:14:05.440 versus freedom of expression,

00:14:07.520 it's not because

00:14:08.300 they're genuinely

00:14:09.140 trying to find

00:14:10.080 the constitutional answer

00:14:11.340 to the question.

00:14:12.380 It's because

00:14:12.880 they're trying

00:14:13.300 to rationalize

00:14:14.340 the desire for censorship

00:14:15.560 that they already have.

00:14:17.340 And if anything,

00:14:18.240 freedom of expression,

00:14:19.700 which is how

00:14:20.180 it's laid out

00:14:20.780 in the Charter,

00:14:21.700 should be broader

00:14:22.700 than free speech

00:14:23.660 because speech

00:14:24.400 is a form of expression.

00:14:26.120 I mean,

00:14:26.280 if anything,

00:14:27.180 if we go based

00:14:27.820 on the wording alone

00:14:28.760 in Canada,

00:14:29.760 that right includes

00:14:30.620 the right to

00:14:31.240 an interpretive dance,

00:14:32.340 that includes

00:14:33.080 the right to,

00:14:34.180 you know,

00:14:34.660 a solo,

00:14:35.300 a poem,

00:14:35.900 a speech,

00:14:36.560 whatever.

00:14:37.260 But you have

00:14:37.980 so many people

00:14:38.760 that are hell-bent

00:14:39.440 in this idea

00:14:40.000 that everything

00:14:40.560 has to be contextualized,

00:14:42.280 that everything

00:14:42.900 has to be limited,

00:14:43.920 and they're far more

00:14:45.160 concerned with

00:14:45.860 how they can justify

00:14:47.020 drawing those boundaries

00:14:48.520 than they are

00:14:49.540 with standing up

00:14:50.400 for the fundamental

00:14:51.220 principle of free speech.

00:14:53.080 And I include

00:14:53.660 alongside that

00:14:54.700 freedom of the press.

00:14:55.880 Yeah.

00:14:56.260 You know,

00:14:56.860 you mentioned,

00:14:57.860 I mean,

00:14:58.260 you and us

00:14:59.360 at The Rebel

00:14:59.860 have been to

00:15:00.920 interesting events

00:15:01.880 together.

00:15:02.380 And by the way,

00:15:03.120 I want to tell you,

00:15:03.880 it's one of my favorite

00:15:04.640 things to see you

00:15:06.400 in another city

00:15:07.280 at something we're doing

00:15:08.600 because it makes me

00:15:09.880 feel less alone.

00:15:11.180 I mean,

00:15:11.400 I never feel truly alone.

00:15:13.060 I know our viewers

00:15:13.740 are with us.

00:15:14.540 But when we saw you

00:15:15.680 at that London

00:15:16.600 Media Freedom event,

00:15:17.780 it made me feel good

00:15:19.240 that we weren't

00:15:19.880 by ourselves.

00:15:21.300 And you came,

00:15:22.360 I think,

00:15:22.600 a few times,

00:15:23.340 two or three times

00:15:24.300 to London

00:15:25.420 for the trials

00:15:26.640 of Tommy Robinson.

00:15:27.760 And our viewers know

00:15:28.660 he's a colorful character

00:15:29.740 who sometimes

00:15:31.020 gets certain things wrong.

00:15:34.200 But on the core issue

00:15:35.420 of free speech,

00:15:36.920 he's a canary

00:15:37.680 in the coal mine

00:15:38.260 and he gets that

00:15:38.980 dead right.

00:15:39.560 I use the phrase,

00:15:43.260 Andrew,

00:15:43.580 that going to the UK

00:15:44.600 to see Tommy Robinson

00:15:45.760 is my own personal

00:15:46.840 dystopian time machine.

00:15:49.520 It's like I look

00:15:50.160 five years into the future

00:15:51.420 of our own censorship.

00:15:53.240 Can you give our viewers

00:15:54.680 your view?

00:15:55.400 Because everyone's heard me

00:15:56.280 on Tommy

00:15:56.720 probably 50 times.

00:15:59.280 But you were there

00:16:00.340 in the court

00:16:01.140 in the UK

00:16:02.240 watching

00:16:03.580 how the law

00:16:05.140 was used

00:16:05.860 to silence

00:16:07.960 some of the things

00:16:08.580 Tommy was saying,

00:16:09.220 but also

00:16:09.920 and maybe you could

00:16:10.900 speak to this

00:16:11.540 how the other media

00:16:13.600 there

00:16:14.200 handled the whole thing.

00:16:17.040 Give us your thoughts

00:16:17.900 on that.

00:16:19.140 Well, the one thing

00:16:19.940 I will say

00:16:20.440 and this is not

00:16:20.960 and I told you so

00:16:21.780 by any stretch

00:16:22.560 I was a lot less

00:16:23.680 optimistic

00:16:24.280 than you seem to be

00:16:25.560 throughout that hearing.

00:16:27.400 The one in which

00:16:28.100 he was ultimately

00:16:28.800 found to have

00:16:29.960 committed contempt

00:16:31.100 and not because

00:16:32.160 I thought that

00:16:32.980 the prosecutor

00:16:34.000 was making stellar cases

00:16:35.620 but just because

00:16:36.400 I saw the way

00:16:37.780 the institution

00:16:38.580 had been applied

00:16:39.360 against him

00:16:40.100 and I think

00:16:41.040 you were looking

00:16:41.600 too much

00:16:42.000 at the facts

00:16:42.680 of the case

00:16:43.540 which is dangerous

00:16:44.580 in British courts

00:16:45.360 I've learned.

00:16:45.880 You can't focus

00:16:46.400 too much on the facts

00:16:47.280 but I do think

00:16:49.020 that the one

00:16:50.140 big thing

00:16:50.800 we saw there

00:16:51.640 is that everyone

00:16:52.560 had made up

00:16:53.280 their mind

00:16:53.740 before it began

00:16:54.600 and the media

00:16:55.480 is certainly

00:16:57.260 not the exception

00:16:58.580 to that.

00:16:59.100 They're the rule.

00:16:59.660 I mean I don't

00:17:00.600 want to go back

00:17:01.260 and rehash the past

00:17:02.680 but I do have

00:17:03.560 to remind people

00:17:04.540 of that scoop

00:17:05.800 that I literally

00:17:06.480 just stumbled upon

00:17:07.540 by sitting down

00:17:08.440 and being innocuous

00:17:09.440 looking at the

00:17:10.700 very first appearance

00:17:12.120 of Tommy's

00:17:12.740 that I went to

00:17:13.420 in London

00:17:13.920 which I think

00:17:14.880 was going back

00:17:15.700 to when would

00:17:18.040 have been

00:17:18.260 I think it would

00:17:18.920 have been October

00:17:19.620 of 2018

00:17:20.880 and that was

00:17:22.820 when the reporters

00:17:24.360 sitting beside me

00:17:25.740 and behind me

00:17:26.500 were talking about

00:17:27.800 oh we know

00:17:28.220 he's guilty

00:17:28.740 let's change

00:17:29.660 the crowd size

00:17:30.460 number

00:17:30.780 because I don't

00:17:31.180 like the one

00:17:31.600 that the police

00:17:32.080 gave us

00:17:32.600 and yeah

00:17:33.600 he did it

00:17:34.080 I mean

00:17:34.320 and they're

00:17:34.760 just terrible

00:17:35.220 people

00:17:35.600 and I can't

00:17:36.460 remember if

00:17:36.660 it was that

00:17:37.100 visit or another

00:17:37.840 one where they

00:17:38.340 were saying

00:17:38.720 that you need

00:17:39.220 to be sent

00:17:39.660 to jail

00:17:40.080 for fomenting

00:17:40.800 hate

00:17:41.200 I mix it

00:17:42.960 all up

00:17:43.680 but this is

00:17:44.060 the type of

00:17:44.480 stuff we were

00:17:44.920 hearing from

00:17:45.380 the media

00:17:45.780 and then of

00:17:46.700 course the

00:17:47.080 media is

00:17:48.100 getting its

00:17:48.640 knickers in a

00:17:49.260 knot

00:17:49.480 because they're

00:17:50.480 being called

00:17:51.060 the enemy

00:17:51.480 of the people

00:17:52.080 well you're

00:17:52.940 maligning someone

00:17:53.920 who has a

00:17:54.820 great deal of

00:17:55.480 support

00:17:55.880 you're maligning

00:17:56.660 someone who's

00:17:57.700 standing up for

00:17:58.820 an issue that

00:17:59.540 the mainstream

00:18:00.020 media ignored

00:18:01.000 you're indicting

00:18:02.660 someone in print

00:18:03.560 before the judge

00:18:04.980 has actually even

00:18:05.820 heard the case

00:18:06.500 let alone decided

00:18:07.320 on it

00:18:07.720 and then you

00:18:08.400 dare to question

00:18:09.720 why you don't

00:18:10.880 have the complete

00:18:12.000 and unfettered

00:18:12.840 trust of the

00:18:13.460 audience

00:18:13.800 and the profound

00:18:15.080 arrogance that I

00:18:16.100 saw in that

00:18:17.220 trial specifically

00:18:18.240 far beyond what

00:18:19.220 I've seen in

00:18:19.720 Canada or in

00:18:20.820 America from the 0.93

00:18:21.600 media was

00:18:22.300 baffling to me

00:18:23.280 yeah

00:18:23.480 well I know

00:18:25.340 exactly what you

00:18:26.100 mean I was on

00:18:26.700 the stage with you

00:18:27.520 and it was just

00:18:28.080 such a

00:18:28.500 and they were

00:18:29.200 I think they

00:18:30.000 were like 3,000

00:18:30.840 people outside the

00:18:32.080 courthouse and so

00:18:32.800 you told the story

00:18:33.720 I think the story is

00:18:34.820 important for two

00:18:35.520 ways number one it

00:18:36.280 shows that the

00:18:36.980 media in the UK

00:18:38.020 were not doing

00:18:39.660 their traditional

00:18:40.380 job of holding

00:18:41.200 the government to

00:18:42.320 account they were

00:18:43.540 holding a citizen

00:18:44.620 to account on

00:18:45.960 behalf of the

00:18:46.480 government and

00:18:47.500 second of all

00:18:48.280 they were actually

00:18:49.580 making up a

00:18:51.060 story here I'll

00:18:52.780 let you say it in

00:18:53.940 your own words as

00:18:54.660 you said it that

00:18:55.280 day in London take

00:18:56.180 a look

00:18:56.520 the mainstream

00:18:57.840 media did not

00:18:59.020 know who I was

00:19:00.100 being the

00:19:00.600 undocumented

00:19:01.200 foreigner in 0.97

00:19:02.000 this land

00:19:02.560 and they were

00:19:04.780 speaking a little

00:19:05.560 candidly would you

00:19:06.580 like to hear what

00:19:07.420 they said

00:19:08.020 so where's Ezra my

00:19:12.820 personal favorite and

00:19:13.920 by the way this will

00:19:14.860 be quoted on my

00:19:16.440 website later today

00:19:17.440 with their publication

00:19:19.160 name

00:19:19.760 my personal favorite

00:19:25.400 was about our

00:19:27.480 friend Ezra Levant

00:19:28.520 quote he needs to

00:19:30.240 be arrested

00:19:31.080 he's whipped up hate

00:19:45.080 was what they said

00:19:46.340 before the proceeding

00:19:48.080 even started this is

00:19:49.420 what they said about

00:19:50.260 Tommy quote he is in

00:19:52.720 contempt of court

00:19:53.800 there's not really any

00:19:55.220 doubt and there was

00:20:01.300 one more you see one

00:20:02.760 of the great members

00:20:04.320 of the law enforcement

00:20:05.480 who have done a lot

00:20:06.160 of great work today

00:20:06.980 said to them at the

00:20:08.480 time there were about

00:20:09.540 1500 people they said

00:20:12.320 let's just say a few

00:20:14.300 hundred quote because

00:20:16.520 we don't want to give

00:20:17.680 it credit

00:20:18.380 this is why I got on

00:20:28.260 a plane to come here

00:20:29.620 to cover the facts

00:20:31.560 that's why I'm here

00:20:32.600 thank you

00:20:33.240 well I thought that

00:20:34.020 was incredible but let

00:20:34.940 me bring it back to

00:20:35.780 Canada because Justin

00:20:38.120 Trudeau was re-elected

00:20:39.720 and he's sent out new

00:20:43.100 mandate letters they're

00:20:45.000 called to his cabinet

00:20:46.700 ministers so those are

00:20:47.720 sort of here's your job

00:20:50.080 description and he

00:20:51.820 updated the mandate

00:20:53.580 letter for the minister

00:20:55.020 of heritage and I'd like

00:20:56.800 to read to you just one

00:20:58.920 new point from the

00:21:01.500 mandate letter for the

00:21:03.300 minister of heritage

00:21:03.940 because this was not

00:21:04.800 there until now I'm just

00:21:05.840 going to read it off my

00:21:06.560 phone but you can find

00:21:07.760 this online on the

00:21:08.500 prime minister's own

00:21:09.100 website one of the to-do

00:21:11.700 lists for Stephen Gilbo

00:21:13.960 the new heritage minister

00:21:15.180 is quote create not

00:21:17.720 new regulations for

00:21:19.960 social media platforms

00:21:21.660 starting with a

00:21:23.120 requirement that all

00:21:24.940 platforms remove illegal

00:21:26.920 content including hate

00:21:29.080 speech within 24 hours or

00:21:32.100 face significant penalties

00:21:34.000 so basically it's internet

00:21:37.260 censorship and I've never

00:21:39.840 heard of a justice system

00:21:41.080 that can hear a substantive

00:21:43.960 case in 24 hours so if

00:21:46.560 you're saying take down

00:21:48.480 any hate speech whatever

00:21:50.420 that means within 24

00:21:52.260 hours or face a huge

00:21:53.380 fine every single social

00:21:56.360 media company is going to

00:21:57.280 take down every single

00:21:58.580 thing because they're not

00:22:00.520 they're not going to risk

00:22:01.900 getting it wrong and you

00:22:03.780 can't figure it out in 24

00:22:05.180 hours this is basically says

00:22:07.420 when the government tells you

00:22:09.220 to delete something you'd

00:22:10.360 better delete it that's my

00:22:11.480 interpretation of this yeah

00:22:13.880 this is baffling to me and

00:22:15.660 in many ways that there

00:22:17.000 isn't more media criticism of

00:22:19.580 this and I was in the

00:22:20.980 committee meetings in June

00:22:22.860 specifically when the

00:22:24.380 justice and human rights

00:22:25.380 committee was weighing this

00:22:27.620 and what really came about

00:22:29.720 from those testimonies and

00:22:31.280 also from the report that

00:22:33.400 was tabled before parliament

00:22:34.640 is that the government wants

00:22:35.720 to deputize big tech to do the

00:22:38.320 work that government itself

00:22:39.660 could never get away with

00:22:40.720 doing because now if the

00:22:42.620 government's prosecuting you

00:22:43.960 for hate speech as heavy

00:22:47.120 handed as it is and as much

00:22:48.700 as a kangaroo court as the

00:22:49.980 Canadian Human Rights

00:22:50.680 Commission is there's at the

00:22:51.720 very least some sunlight to

00:22:53.460 that now what's happening is

00:22:55.300 Facebook is deciding we're

00:22:57.840 going to get rid of this on

00:22:58.900 its own which as a private

00:23:00.120 company it can set whatever

00:23:01.320 boundary it wants to but

00:23:02.920 they're doing it now with the

00:23:04.280 backing and with the threat of

00:23:06.240 punishment from the state and

00:23:08.060 if you're Facebook especially

00:23:09.460 Facebook and Twitter which are

00:23:10.920 American companies Canada is

00:23:12.880 just such an itty-bitty cog in

00:23:15.220 their global operations they

00:23:17.060 aren't going to want to deal

00:23:17.860 with the hassle of litigating

00:23:19.780 hate speech cases in Canada so

00:23:21.820 it's easy for them to as you say

00:23:23.880 just go along with the lie that

00:23:25.760 this is hate speech and that is

00:23:27.240 hate speech nowhere in the

00:23:29.120 heritage ministers mandate letter

00:23:30.820 is there a definition of hate

00:23:33.020 speech nowhere in the report on

00:23:35.400 online hate that was produced by

00:23:36.880 the justice committee is there a

00:23:38.680 definition of hate speech

00:23:39.860 nowhere in the mandate letter is

00:23:42.020 there a commitment that the

00:23:43.480 heritage minister must define

00:23:45.520 hate speech they're just saying

00:23:47.220 this is what you have to do and

00:23:49.420 it's not just heritage Ezra four

00:23:51.460 different ministers in their

00:23:53.040 mandate letters had online hate

00:23:55.680 mandates there including the

00:23:57.980 public safety minister the justice

00:23:59.900 minister the diversity minister and

00:24:02.620 the heritage minister so this is

00:24:04.120 going to be a priority that spans

00:24:05.480 at the very least four ministries

00:24:07.120 and not even working with a

00:24:08.680 definition of what it is they're

00:24:09.960 prosecuting you know it's

00:24:11.860 incredible and I've been the

00:24:13.780 subject of complaints online Twitter

00:24:17.580 for example they never tell you who

00:24:19.840 the complainant is except in one

00:24:22.640 case I was told that it was the

00:24:24.940 government of Pakistan I've also

00:24:27.860 seen some people say the

00:24:28.920 government of Germany because

00:24:31.120 those are two countries that have

00:24:32.220 extreme censorship laws by the way it

00:24:35.360 just made me remember when I was in

00:24:36.980 that London media freedom conference

00:24:38.300 with you I stumbled upon the

00:24:40.900 foreign minister of Pakistan I

00:24:42.360 didn't even know that's who he was

00:24:43.940 and I I was a little shouty but just

00:24:48.160 for old time's sake let me show you

00:24:49.940 when I bumped into the foreign 0.99

00:24:52.000 minister of Pakistan and I was very

00:24:53.860 mad at him because he was trying to

00:24:57.160 censor me using an American platform

00:25:01.140 called Twitter in Canada he was

00:25:04.060 trying to use his Pakistani law here

00:25:05.800 take a look at this I'm really sorry

00:25:07.600 but we're kind of running out of time

00:25:09.280 we're going to have a panel session I

00:25:11.380 wonder if there are any questions very

00:25:12.620 briefly for Minister Popovsky I see

00:25:16.980 there are not there is one yes very

00:25:19.160 quick one thanks actually I'm not going

00:25:21.420 to be directed by you I'm going to ask

00:25:22.940 a question to the Pakistani gentleman

00:25:24.760 now you know yes I am because it's a

00:25:26.840 media freedom conference and you're

00:25:28.280 not going to shut down questions about

00:25:30.160 a censor you censored me sir I have a

00:25:33.260 twitter account in Canada and because I

00:25:35.660 wrote something that traduce some

00:25:37.560 Pakistani blasphemy law you complained

00:25:40.940 to Twitter which took down my tweet in

00:25:43.760 Canada so can you explain why your

00:25:47.160 Islamic supremacy in Pakistan is 0.97

00:25:50.460 silencing my personal and journalistic

00:25:52.680 freedom in Canada and I know it

00:25:54.780 happens in the United States too and

00:25:56.400 frankly you sure should be embarrassed

00:25:58.320 to invite a censor like this but back to 0.88

00:26:00.000 the thought who the hell are you to 0.53

00:26:01.980 censor me in Canada answer I know you 0.77

00:26:06.080 don't because you don't like free

00:26:07.440 speech you don't like free speech

00:26:10.460 ok I just I just want to use first of

00:26:14.940 all you want your sentiments with a

00:26:18.240 respect is that is why did you censor me

00:26:28.620 did I say you you shut down my Twitter

00:26:30.780 time you thought don't lie because the

00:26:36.240 government of Pakistan dance the

00:26:38.180 government of Pakistan you know you are

00:26:40.980 not you censored me I did not come to you

00:26:43.200 don't lie because that's what you do

00:26:46.320 I'm sorry I'm sorry shame on you and

00:26:50.640 shame on you shame on you and shame on you

00:26:53.760 for inviting it shame on you you 1.00

00:26:56.700 censorious thug you censorious thug and what 0.99

00:27:01.320 you call freedom at times you are 0.95

00:27:04.260 projecting certain sectoral agenda now

00:27:07.200 Andrew at least I knew that it was the

00:27:09.680 government of Pakistan that was trying to

00:27:11.300 censor me there I'm not sure if we will

00:27:14.340 even know if it's the government of

00:27:16.980 Canada or a politician or who that's

00:27:20.140 telling these social media companies to

00:27:21.740 censor us under the I mean we'll have to

00:27:23.980 wait and see what the regulations are but

00:27:25.540 Justin Trudeau sure seems intent on

00:27:28.540 censoring people he doesn't like and doing

00:27:30.780 it before they have a chance for a

00:27:32.700 meaningful process 24 hours there's no

00:27:35.400 there's no legal process that works in

00:27:37.220 24 hours not that I've heard of well and

00:27:39.680 there will be no remedy or no appeal if

00:27:42.200 they get it wrong and you know one of the

00:27:44.780 things that I would hope to I mean I hope

00:27:46.420 to see this not happen but if it is going

00:27:48.040 to happen if you're googling something for

00:27:50.340 example like let's say you're googling

00:27:51.760 Game of Thrones you'll see a notice at

00:27:54.280 the bottom of the results page often that

00:27:56.260 says and you can probably throw up an

00:27:57.360 example of this you know we've removed

00:27:59.740 X number of results because of copyright

00:28:01.760 complaints or complaints under the I think

00:28:03.820 it's the DCMA or the DMCA Act whatever

00:28:06.040 it is and I would love to see something

00:28:08.560 like that on social media where if you're

00:28:10.220 removing the content you better say

00:28:12.580 because of a directive from the federal

00:28:15.320 government we're removing this be not

00:28:17.280 because you violated our terms of service

00:28:19.100 but because the government told us to

00:28:21.040 and I would love to see a lot more

00:28:22.740 transparency around that if this is the

00:28:24.620 direction we're going to go very

00:28:26.280 interesting well I guess what I'm taking

00:28:28.280 away from this conversation is that

00:28:30.580 2020 will even be tougher for free speech

00:28:35.960 than 2019 that's how I'm I didn't know

00:28:38.480 this was in four different ministries this

00:28:42.080 requirement to censor that makes it four

00:28:44.900 times as bad and four times as likely that

00:28:47.380 it'll happen last word to you Andrew

00:28:49.640 thanks for giving so much your time and

00:28:51.400 and by the way Merry Christmas and Happy

00:28:53.380 New Year and keep up the fight we're big

00:28:55.360 Facebook's going to take that down you

00:28:56.980 can't say Merry Christmas now that's

00:28:58.960 right that's that's hate speech that'll

00:29:00.480 be taken down from Twitter we're real

00:29:02.760 fans of True North because I feel like

00:29:04.720 you guys are fighting for freedom not

00:29:06.760 just in your journalism but you were

00:29:08.160 there with us in court so I didn't feel

00:29:10.380 alone that day and I know that I just

00:29:14.220 am going to make a prediction right now

00:29:15.740 both you and us will be censored in some

00:29:19.420 way in the year ahead and I hope that we

00:29:21.600 can fight back and maybe even get a few

00:29:23.820 more allies going it sure would be nice

00:29:26.900 but even if we're fighting alone we've

00:29:28.380 got our viewers with us last word to you

00:29:30.020 my friend you know what I will say I

00:29:32.520 think first off thank you for

00:29:33.620 dedicating so much time to this topic

00:29:35.400 censorship is the enemy of speech but by

00:29:37.760 the extension speech is the enemy of

00:29:39.440 censorship and I think that it's

00:29:40.840 important that you never cowed tau to

00:29:43.340 this narrative and to this pressure I'm

00:29:46.240 fighting it in my own way I'm going to

00:29:47.900 be relaunching my old show the Andrew

00:29:50.040 Lawton show as a podcast in the new

00:29:51.600 year the antidote to this is going to be

00:29:53.720 speech so I'm happy to be in this fight

00:29:55.300 and I'm happy you're here in it as well

00:29:56.900 right on well I can hardly wait for that

00:29:58.800 show to be launched and folks who aren't

00:30:01.620 already supporters of Andrew can find

00:30:04.080 his work at tnc.news is that right

00:30:07.500 that's correct tnc.news all right take

00:30:11.580 care my friend thanks so much you too

00:30:13.660 thanks okay well there you have it our

00:30:15.740 good friend Andrew Lawton that's it for

00:30:17.540 today on behalf of all of us here at

00:30:19.660 rebel world headquarters to you at home

00:30:21.280 good night and keep fighting for

00:30:23.200 freedom

00:30:25.480 good night and keep fighting for freedom

00:30:37.820 so

00:30:38.620 you

Rebel News Podcast - December 31, 2019

Andrew Lawton on the challenges of journalism in 2019

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