Civil liberties lawyer John Carpay on Canada's collective germaphobia
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Summary
John Carpe, Canada's only real civil liberties lawyer, joins us to talk about the pandemic of fear that is the fear of germs, and why it's actually a psychological disorder. Ezra Levenrant is the host of the Ezra LeVant Show on the Rebel News Network and host of The Ezra Lee VaynerSpeakers podcast.
Transcript
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Hello, my Rebels. You know, here at Rebel News, we like to tell you the news. We like to give you
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our opinions. But one of our favorite things is to actually become activists and fix a problem.
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These days, it's civil liberties and the pandemic. And I look around and I say,
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where are the civil libertarians? Where's the Canadian Civil Liberties Association?
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Where's everyone else? Too often, it's just us. But today, I have the pleasure of an extended,
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in-depth interview with really Canada's leading civil libertarian. Really the only one. So he's
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obviously leading. I'm joking around. He's the best. His name is John Carpe. And I hope you enjoy
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my conversation with him. Before I get out of the way, let me invite you to become a subscriber
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to Rebel News Plus. Just go to rebelnews.com and click subscribe. It's eight bucks a month,
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or 80 for the whole year. And you get the video version of these podcasts, which is good. But
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it's also important because that money is what we pay our bills with, because we don't take any
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money from Trudeau. All right, here's my interview with John Carpe.
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Tonight, a feature interview with John Carpe, Canada's only real civil liberties lawyer.
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It's October 2nd. This is the Ezra LeVant Show.
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Why should others go to jail when you're a biggest carbon consumer I know?
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There's 8,500 customers here, and you won't give them an answer.
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The only thing I have to say to the government about why I publish it is because it's my bloody
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Do you know germophobia is a thing we all used to sort of make fun of people who would wipe down
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every surface? And, you know, they were a little bit over the top. I mean, it's good to be clean
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and hygienic. Cleanliness is next to godliness. But this whole pandemic panic has turned into a
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psychological disorder, according to a column by our next guest, John Carpe, the executive director
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of the Justice Center for Constitutional Freedoms. Germophobia is actually a medical condition itself.
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John, great to see you. Welcome to our world headquarters here in Toronto.
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I was reading your essay, and I didn't think about it this way. But we used to sort of make fun of,
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if it was a light case of germophobia, but that's actually a medical condition. And some people could
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be actually crazy about it. They would be afraid to go out of their homes. They would...
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Not use a public bathroom, wipe down a chair before you sit on it. You remember Niles Crane,
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the character on the Frasier series? Frasier was that popular sitcom with a talk show,
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psychiatrist, radio psychiatrist. And so he had a younger brother, Niles Crane, who was always
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wiping everything down, and didn't want to touch anybody, didn't want to shake hands.
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And under the DM5, it is a recognized psychiatric illness, germophobia.
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Yeah. I mean, it's always good to be somewhat afraid of germs. Our gag reflex, I think, is an
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instinctive reaction, a rejection to things that are rotten. Don't eat that maggot-covered meat that
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makes you want to throw up. That's your body's way of saying, we've been practicing eating strange
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things for 100,000 years. Don't eat that. So it's good to be germophobic. It's good to wash hands.
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Washing hands and penicillin. Those are great developments. But to be so terrified of the world
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that you're like the boy in the bubble, that is a mental condition. And I think it has been inflicted
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on millions of people who are genuinely afraid to leave their homes. I think that there are people,
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especially seniors who have been terrified by this, who will never leave their homes again. And I don't
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mean ever, ever. They'll go and get the groceries. They'll go and get the mail, maybe. But they're
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never going to go to a restaurant, a theater. They're never going to go to a family reunion.
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They'll never travel again, never go on a vacation. They're just going to sit in their homes until they
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It's very sad. The fear that we have been put into as a society with the politicians basically
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running with the Neil Ferguson Imperial College predictions from March that millions of people
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around the world would die. And this Neil Ferguson, he has been spectacularly wrong on BSE,
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mad cow disease, the bird flu. Every pandemic he is out by thousands of percentage points,
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The irony is, I mean, I remember reading headlines about his study. Obviously, I didn't go deep into it.
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And I thought, oh, this is cause for concern. I myself propagated, I mean, Imperial College
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sounds very authoritative. It was a pack of lies. The thing about him is that not only did he produce
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the seminal propaganda document that everyone followed, but even he didn't believe it in his
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own life. He's the one who broke the lockdown rules and ran around town sleeping with his married
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mistress breaking the rules. And I mentioned that only because, I mean, not that I think that's relevant
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to his science, but it's relevant to the fact that even he obviously doesn't believe what he's saying.
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If he's arranging trysts, you know, illicit trysts when we're all supposed to be in lockdown,
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he didn't believe it himself. But he loves seeing other people dance to his tunes.
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He also recanted in part, and this got very little publicity, but he did speak publicly
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before parliamentary committee a few weeks later. And he said his numbers were way out. And he also
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said most of these people would have died anyway, making a reference to the fact that the COVID is
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a deadly killer for people that are in their 80s. They're already very sick with cancer or emphysema
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or heart disease or diabetes or any number of things. And so Neil Ferguson said these people
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would have died anyway. And his numbers were out. But by then the panic train had left the station.
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And people didn't want to, but he did retract it. And what's so sad now though, is I feel kind of
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conned and tricked because I didn't oppose these lockdowns in March. I thought, well, if there's millions
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of people who are going to die, we should take some decisive action. But now we're into October.
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We're six months, seven months past. We know, looking at government data, I'm not talking about
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you know, getting data off of some right-wing conspiracy website or something. Government
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data, Ontario government, Alberta government, Italian government, Center for Disease Control in
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the US, government data tells us that this is not an unusually deadly killer. And the death numbers
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are closer to an annual flu than to a real pandemic like the 1968, 1957, 1918.
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I've seen stats now in the United Kingdom that more people are dying from the regular flu than
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from this virus. And look at this just for a second. These are statistics from the government
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of Ontario. This is their latest modeling. They just rolled this out days ago. You can see they have
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their best case scenario, middle case and worst case scenario. Already, the facts are better than
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their best case scenario. So we see already that their modeling is still way, way, way off.
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And they're still proceeding with their crazy lockdowns.
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Well, these models have been discredited entirely, and yet they continue to form the basis for public
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policy. In Alberta, Premier Hinshaw and her lovely assistant, Jason, predicted back in April that there
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there would be 32,000 deaths. Even with lockdown measures in place, 32,000 Albertans would die.
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Do they know that in Alberta, there are 27,000 people that die every year from all causes,
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you know, cancer, heart disease, everything? It's 27,000 people die every year. COVID deaths are at 250,
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compared to 27,000. And they predicted 32,000 people would die.
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So it was more, they were, it was less than 1% of what they thought. I know that Justin Trudeau and
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Theresa Tam predicted up to 350,000 deaths. The number is about 9,200. 9,200. And the total annual
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deaths in Canada from all causes, right? Cancer, suicide, car accidents, everything. Total annual
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deaths in Canada is 275,000. You know, I learned something from one of your papers on Saskatchewan.
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You were quoting the public health officer. I didn't know there were so many public health
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officers in this country. Every province, every city, every region. And these folks are making
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two, three, $400,000 a year. There's probably 100 of them in Canada. And they all just repeat the
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talking points from the World Health Organization. I don't even know why we have 100 of them. They're
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just sort of repeating what the lead mouthpiece says. It's very strange to me.
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He said in Saskatchewan that the virus doesn't discriminate young, old, male, female, any race.
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But that's actually not true. As you indicated, I mean, I've studied the numbers in various
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jurisdictions. The average age of death is between 83 and 86, depending which province you're at in this
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country. Which is, by the way, older than life expectancy in Canada. And I'm not happy that
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anyone is dying at 83, 80, 45. But we have to look at reality.
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Well, but just don't say that this virus doesn't discriminate. The virus does discriminate.
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And that's useful information. That means you don't have to shut down summer camps for kids,
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schools for kids, restaurants where waiters and waitresses are in their teens and 20s.
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I want to throw something at you. I've been puzzling over Quebec. Quebec has about 23,
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24 percent of the population. But they have a majority of the cases and a huge majority of the
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deaths. Why is that? Do they not have good hospitals? The answer is most of them are in
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seniors' homes. Okay, but there's seniors' homes in Ontario. Now, it's true 82 percent of the deaths
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have been in seniors' homes. And that's across Canada.
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So it's not actually a disease that targets the elderly.
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It targets the elderly in seniors' homes. And Quebec, especially in the last year,
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has been the most pro-assisted dying, euthanasia, do not revive jurisdiction in Canada. They're
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obsessed with it. My theory, and I don't yet have the proof in hand other than what makes Quebec
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different than Ontario, their obsession with do not revive euthanasia. And so my theory, not yet proven,
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but something I want to look into, is that these are folks that kids or grandkids said,
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you know, Gramps, we're going to send you to the home, and doctor, do not revive him. And the
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doctor says, okay, we won't. And the healthcare system, happy not to expend 20, 30, 40, 50 thousand
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dollars in the last month of life. So it is, and the same thing in New York State with Governor Cuomo.
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They thought, oh, you know what? We got people who are in their 80s, 90s, and hundreds.
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They're not going to be around for much longer. I'm trying to get into the mind of a Cuomo or a Legault.
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And they're saying, well, and the kids don't want to spend money keeping them around. Just put them
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all in these seniors' homes and put them on the ice flow and sail them out to sea. That's a terrifying
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and terrible speculation. But that is the law in Quebec more than anywhere else in Canada.
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It is a pro-assisted dying jurisdiction. There's no two ways about it. I think that that's what
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Well, you know, whether that's intentional or unintentional, the one thing that's certain is
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that the cruelty that has been inflicted on people in nursing homes is astounding. The Justice
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Centers commenced a court action in Ontario for two women, each of whom was not allowed to see their
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own mother. And this has been repeated across the country thousands, tens of thousands of times.
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People cannot go in to provide the love and attention and care and affection and just practical
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help with feeding and dressing and so on. The family members are prevented from taking care of
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the seniors because they depend, many of them, on their kids and grandkids coming in to help out.
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And they've closed it off, you know, and at the same time, but the staff are allowed in,
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right? But the family visitors are not. So that's the opposite case of what I'm talking
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about. I'm talking about cases where everyone's happy to let granny go out in the ice. Well,
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you probably have both sides. You have loving family members and you probably also have some
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callous people that maybe want their relative to die as soon as possible. You know, I was on the
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phone today with someone from the United Kingdom who works in seniors' homes and says that the
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chief worry for them is actually malnutrition and loneliness. You've got these people in their 80s
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who, I was surprised to hear malnutrition is a concern, but it is a fact that the deaths are so
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low now in Canada, even though the cases are high, that suicides are higher, opioid deaths. Child
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suicide rates are going up. Yeah. And I detected something in Toronto. We're following up on it.
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I used to go to the Toronto statistics page every day because it was actually very,
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uh, there's a lot of statistics there. And, and I started to notice that no one was, in fact,
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no one died in the entire month of September. Oh, I think until like, like the very, there was,
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I think there was like one death of Corona. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. In the whole, and I thought,
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wow, that's, and I think there was only two or three in August. That's very, very, very low.
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But that's the wave has come and gone. I mean, it peaked in, the deaths peaked in, in March,
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April, May, April, April, May, April. And they came down and then May, June, July, August,
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they come down, down, down, down. So every day I do a live stream every day. So every day I would go to
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the page and Justin, our producer would call up that stat and we would say, okay, there was zero deaths
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today or two deaths or whatever. And we would go to the stats and we would pull out, we would ignore the stats
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that are there just to wow you. This many people have, yeah, cases. And then suddenly we went to
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that website and it was gone. Well, the website's still there, but those easy to find stats of when
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people died and how often they, that was just gone. And now you can get the raw data, but it's not in
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chart form and you have to be a whiz at data manipulation. This is news I haven't mentioned
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before. So we put in an access to information request to the city saying, how come you change,
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like this website was the same for six months? City or the province? City. City of Trump. This
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website was the same for six months. Why didn't you suddenly change it to make it hard to understand?
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Like for six months it worked just fine. And they wrote back and said, instead of giving you an access
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to information that shows the, can we just give you an explanation? And it's, oh, we think there was too
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much clutter there. And, and we wrote back and said, no, actually we, we don't want your explanation.
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Can you give us the background documents? It shows what you really, and they're fighting with us. And
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now they're saying, oh, because of the pandemic, we can't show you the emails. I think, and again,
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I'm sounding like a bit of a conspiracy theorist here, but why is it that after six months they've
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changed how they show the data and when we ask for the documents, which is all right under the access
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information law? They say, oh, no, no, no, no. You don't want to see it. Can we just give you a
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verbal explanation? Oh, you really insist on seeing it? We're too busy because of the virus.
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I think that the Occam's razor, the simplest explanation is they actually don't want people
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to see that we're pretty much in the clear and that we don't need to panic. And bringing in all these
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mask bylaws in August and September was about six months too late.
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And a shutdown in Quebec in October, these devastated, crippled restaurants and bars
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and pubs and other places. And now for effective October 1st, the lockdowns are back in greater
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Montreal. And it's some of these businesses that are on the verge of death.
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And Montreal used to have such a wonderful restaurant scene. I just read the story yesterday
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in Montreal, not a single outbreak was traced to the restaurant industry.
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So why are you shutting down the restaurant industry, not a single outbreak? Why are you punishing them?
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And there are no deaths. So I don't know what's going on, but I can tell you whatever's going on is very,
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very bad because the lockdown harms are, they're killing people, even worse in the third world,
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but bad enough in Canada. We've got cancelled surgeries, people not getting their cancer diagnosis,
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people driven into unemployment and poverty and despair and suicide. We've got opioid deaths,
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twice as many people in Alberta and British Columbia for sure, and probably in other provinces,
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twice as many people dying from opioid overdoses than from coronavirus. And those numbers are way
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up over last year. Why is that? Well, despair. You get unemployment and you destroy livelihoods.
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And then add in quick cash from Justin Trudeau. And quick cash and unemployment. So the whole thing is,
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these policies are causing way more damage as compared to any lives that may have been saved.
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And I have yet to see the evidence on that. You know, there's 50 states in the United States,
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and each one of them has a lot of authority over their own affairs. You can see disastrous decisions
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done in New York State. And more diversity than Canadian provinces, because you can go from
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New York and California, very severe lockdowns, very high death rates.
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South Dakota, where they never locked down. And Florida that just announced, not only are they
00:18:03.400
removing any lockdown, but the governor of Florida is passing a law superseding any towns and saying,
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you may not have a mask by law. Good. So not only are you saying, I'm not putting anything on you,
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but I am removing the power of towns. So you see 50 different competitive approaches to it. And
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in Canada, theoretically, you could have 10 provinces and three territories,
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but I think they're walking in lockstep. They're all terrified. I don't see any opposition.
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In the States, there's sort of a bifurcation of Republicans and Democrats. In Canada, I can't name a
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single... Elective representative. Yeah. Now, Jason Kenney, and I accept the fact that you're
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challenging his... Bill 10, he's a dangerous authoritarian. What I would say to you is every
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other jurisdiction is worse. But I see no courage to dissent from this pandemic panic. I think it's
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just like I said, every single... Well, we saw an inkling of it. I was thrilled and surprised.
00:19:10.920
Jason Kenney, a few weeks ago, I think it was in, it could have been August or September. He actually
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said publicly that the lockdowns are doing a lot of harms and we have to take that into account.
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I don't remember the exact words, but it was like, wow. Okay. So like I said, Jason Kenney is...
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Yeah. But is he going to follow through on that? We're still under lockdown in Alberta.
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Maybe not as badly as in Ontario and Quebec, but the kids are forced to wear masks in school,
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which is... perpetuates fear and perpetuates this false notion that COVID is an unusually
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deadly killer and is based on the false notion that children are at risk when they're not. So it's,
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you know, symbols are important. And to force kids to wear masks is...
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Oh, it's going to... We're going to have 20 years of psychological problems from this, especially
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kids in that awkward age, teenagers, and even kids learning how to socialize. I mean, communication
00:20:10.760
It's crazy. Well, let me ask you this. You, I mean, we've talked about the pandemic
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epidemiologically and politically and jurisdictionally, but you are a lawyer and you
00:20:21.080
are the boss of the Justice Center for Constitutional Freedoms, which is, in my view,
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really the only true civil liberties public interest law firm in Canada. The Canadian
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Civil Liberties Association has been... They're good on free speech, but yeah.
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You know what? They haven't done much at all on this lockdown. I'm a donor to them. They called me up
00:20:44.760
thinking they could liberate more money from me. All they wanted to talk about is Black Lives Matter.
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I said to them, I can't believe I said this, John. I said to the fundraiser,
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you just wouldn't stop talking about Black Lives Matter. So we're in the middle of the pandemic
1.00
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lockdown. I said, all right, let's make a deal. There's this street, Eglinton West,
00:21:02.520
where there's about a dozen Jamaican barber shops in two blocks. It's amazing. They were all locked
00:21:07.880
down. I said, I'll give you $5,000 donation. If you take the case of one of these black barbers,
1.00
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if you're obsessed with Black Lives Matter, okay, let's champion a black... Make sure that black people can
00:21:18.280
earn a living and not live in poverty. They wouldn't take the case. I mean,
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not that they would follow them. They were trying to get money from me. I said, I'll give you five
00:21:26.040
large if you do that. I think they're asleep at the switch. I don't understand it. Left wing,
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right wing, everyone's in this. So much of the media is compliant. The police are compliant.
00:21:40.360
I don't know where the center of opposition is, but I know you guys are really digging in on it.
00:21:46.680
Are you suing to challenge any provisions somewhere in Canada?
00:21:50.840
Well, we've taken on a few ticket cases similar to the ones that the rebel has been,
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you know, very generously and helpfully helping to raise money. And so we've taken on some ticket
00:22:01.880
cases. We've sued the Kennedy government in Alberta over Bill 10, which gives the cabinet ministers
00:22:08.440
the power to write laws on the fly without any legislative input.
00:22:15.000
That's one of the worst parts of this whole pandemic is there's just no oversight, let alone
00:22:19.960
opposition. What we're gearing up for, we are working on a large paper that's going to document
00:22:26.920
the lockdown harms in every province and different kinds of harms and number of deaths and so on.
00:22:32.840
We're gearing up for a situation where we will be in a place to have a strong foundation for court
00:22:39.800
action. Because as you know, you don't want to just invent a court action and walk into court the
00:22:44.600
next day, right? You want to have all your ducks lined up, right? So the lockdown under the charter,
00:22:50.280
because these measures very clearly violate our charter freedoms to move, travel, associate,
00:22:55.960
assemble, worship. Because they violate charter freedoms, the onus is on the government to show
00:23:02.840
the lockdowns... There's minimal impairment, proportionality. Proportionality.
00:23:06.120
So more good than harm. The government must show that there's more good coming from lockdown measures
00:23:15.480
Well, this is where... And you know what's infuriating is they're supposed to at least study it
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objectively. They're not even... There's not a single government in Canada that I'm aware of
00:23:25.640
that has said, you know, yeah, we're actually going to take a hard look at all of the lockdown
00:23:29.880
harms. And they have the resources, the manpower to do that. Yeah, the two things on that. If I
00:23:35.160
recall, the city of Edmonton brought in a mask bottle. They didn't even pretend there was medical
00:23:39.560
science. They said, oh, it's... Makes people feel good. Yeah, and it's popular. It's popular.
00:23:44.680
That's not... Makes people feel safe. It's just like, you know, in 20 years, the TSA agents at the
00:23:51.960
airport have never caught a terrorist, but it's security theater. This is public health theater.
00:23:57.160
Theater. Public health theater. You know, you talk about all the resources in the government.
00:24:02.920
Not a single government worker in this entire country has lost their job.
00:24:06.600
They've lost their work. A lot of them are working from home, getting full pay.
00:24:10.680
Layoffs have been pretty... There have been some municipal level layoffs here and there,
00:24:13.560
but by and large... Not that I would wish anyone out of a job, but
00:24:17.320
the ruling class that's bringing in the lockdowns is by and large immune. Yes.
00:24:21.800
If judges, MPs, senators, police, the enforcers of this lockdown, bylaw officers,
00:24:30.600
if they face layoffs, like working people... This is a class thing. Yes.
00:24:35.720
I'm not a Marxist. I'm just saying, isn't it funny? It's public sector.
00:24:39.000
The public sector and their courtiers, the media party, everyone who's loving...
00:24:43.960
There's a big difference between a medical doctor that treats a patient and a public health doctor
00:24:50.760
that regards patients as ants in an ant colony. So you say you're putting together a documented,
00:24:56.280
factual basis of how there's more harm than good from these lockdowns. I hope that's the...
00:25:02.440
And that's going to be the basis for a court action. Yeah. Well, listen, we're going to force
00:25:07.160
the government to actually have to justify itself in court. Right now, they're just coasting along,
00:25:12.920
saying, you know, oh, Ezra, relax. We've saved thousands of lives. You should be grateful for
00:25:17.000
what we've done. And there's no evidence they've saved thousands of lives. Well, I tell you, we
00:25:21.240
will support you journalistically. There may be a way that we can support legally, crowdfunding,
00:25:27.080
whatever. Someone's got to do it. And here's the thing. I did my show the other day about this.
00:25:33.160
I looked to the United Kingdom. I looked to Australia. I looked to New Zealand. I looked to
00:25:36.440
other jurisdictions that are similar to us. We are very similar to Australia and New Zealand.
00:25:40.360
And I see indefinite detentions of people, not who have the cough, but who just don't want to be
00:25:48.520
tested. I see that's come to Quebec now. You don't want to be tested. You're locked up till you do.
00:25:55.400
No judge, no appeal, just unlimited detention. And yet, if you were running a child prostitution
00:26:02.120
ring in your basement, they'd have to go get a warrant from a judge before, you know, you'd have all
00:26:08.520
Montreal has rolled out those new mobile arrests. Like they've got, they're trying out all sorts of
00:26:13.000
new things. I'm telling you that we are a paper-thin step away, legally, politically,
00:26:19.320
police-wise, from what I see in Australia and New Zealand and UK. There's no cultural difference.
00:26:23.480
There's no legal, very little legal difference between us and those other jurisdictions. If we
00:26:27.640
don't have some counterweight, Justin Trudeau is dumber than other world leaders, but he is just as
00:26:33.800
authoritarian. And I think the time will come when he says, ah, not only will I exercise power
00:26:39.720
for its own sake, but I'll take this opportunity to whack my opponents. You see it in Quebec City.
00:26:46.120
They're trying to censor Chois FM, a skeptical radio station. All the government agencies are
00:26:51.880
pulling their ad money and denouncing it because they're a public health danger. They're using the
00:26:57.160
public health excuse to shut down a radio station in Quebec. That's got to be 10 seconds away in English,
00:27:03.640
Canada. And I'm worried about that. John, it's great to catch up with you. JCCF.ca
00:27:10.920
You issue charitable tax receipts too, so that's a bonus.
00:27:13.880
In the past, we've done some crowdfunding for you. I really enjoyed doing that. If there's
00:27:17.240
things we can help you out with in the future, let us know. But otherwise, folks, I encourage you
00:27:21.320
to support John. I've said this before. You've heard me say this before. John is a true civil
00:27:26.600
liberties champion in a country that lacks those. On free speech, obviously, you're very strong on
00:27:32.440
that. But during the pandemic, there's cowardice on all the traditional civil libertarians. And
00:27:37.560
you've been generous in your praise for the Canadian Civil Liberties Association. I do not
00:27:41.400
share your view. And I'm a member and a donor of theirs. I think they've been hitting that snooze
00:27:45.800
button. They're a drowsy lifeguard when there's people drowning out there. John, keep up the fight
00:27:51.320
and keep us posted. We're not through this by any stretch.
00:27:54.840
Oh, no. Oh, no. This is the permanent. This is the new normal. This is the new normal.
00:27:58.680
And we're not accepting the new normal. We're going to fight it. Yeah. All right. There you have it.
00:28:03.320
John Carpe, one of the good guys. Pleasure to sit down with him and talk about this at length.
00:28:07.960
We'll keep in touch with him and his staff lawyers in the months ahead. That's our show for today.
00:28:14.040
On behalf of all of us here at Rebel World Headquarters, to you at home, good night and keep fighting for freedom.