Rebel News Podcast - EZRA LEVANT ｜ Breaking the mold on foreign policy： An interview with Maxime Bernier

00:00:00.000 Hello, my friends. A feature interview with Maxime Bernier of the People's Party.

00:00:03.600 I want to talk to him about foreign policy. It's not something that a lot of Canadians

00:00:07.460 think about these days. We've been so focused on the economy and, of course, the civil liberties

00:00:11.340 bonfire of the pandemic and the lockdowns. But what about this hurtling war in Ukraine that

00:00:18.340 threatens to engulf many other countries? What about China? What about Trudeau and his role in

00:00:24.120 both? We'll talk to Maxime Bernier about it, and I expect we'll get a more contrarian take than we do

00:00:28.520 from, oh, say, the Conservative Party of Canada. You can be the judge of that, though. That's ahead.

00:00:32.920 But first, let me invite you to become a subscriber to Rebel News Plus. That's the video version of

00:00:37.500 this podcast. Just go to rebelnewsplus.com and click subscribe, eight bucks a month. You get

00:00:42.580 the video version and you help keep us alive because, as you know, we do not take any government

00:00:47.340 money, which makes us almost unique in Canada. All right, here's today's show.

00:00:58.520 Tonight, meet the one Canadian political party leader who's breaking the mold on foreign policy.

00:01:12.500 It's a feature-length interview with Maxime Bernier. It's March 1st, and you're watching

00:01:17.160 The Ezra Levant Show. I tell you, a year ago, ask anyone on the street where Ukraine is. Ask them

00:01:39.080 to point to it on a map, and I put it to you that 99% of them would not know. I put it to you if you

00:01:46.560 did that same thing today. 99% of them would not know. I'm not disparaging Ukraine. In fact,

00:01:52.480 my own family came from Ukraine in 1903 from the central city of Dnipro, which has actually

00:01:59.280 changed hands historically over the years. It was once called Dnipropetrovsk, which is the Russian

00:02:05.020 name. A lot of cities in that country were Russian, Ukrainian, even Polish over time. The borders

00:02:11.060 move around. That's nothing actually new. I, myself, am against the invasion of

00:02:16.400 any country by another country. I believe in sovereign states and borders, and any war

00:02:21.040 is a failure of diplomacy and economy. There's a saying where goods cross borders, soldiers won't.

00:02:30.000 That is the utopia that we're working towards, a free market where everyone is at peace with each

00:02:35.180 other, and prosperity is the goal, not domination. Alas, Russia has other ambitions. But the question

00:02:41.460 on my mind is not, should Russia invade Ukraine? They have, and they're a big military power run

00:02:48.420 by a former KGB agent. The question is, what do we in Canada, and more importantly, the United Kingdom

00:02:55.460 and the United States do? And do we risk a war that could turn nuclear? In recent weeks, we see that

00:03:03.700 communist China has increasingly allied itself with Russia. That portends the gravest realignment of

00:03:11.620 strategic politics, well, in 50 years since Richard Nixon broke communist China away from the Soviet

00:03:17.860 Union and tried to reorient it towards the West. Imagine those two giant foes uniting against the West.

00:03:26.340 How's it going to end? Well, you won't find the answer in any mainstream media or any mainstream

00:03:32.580 political party. Frankly, in the United States, most Republicans seem to be gung-ho, just as gung-ho,

00:03:39.620 on the war in Ukraine as the Democrats. They're traveling to Kiev for their photo ops with President

00:03:45.540 Zelensky, and most Republicans are voting to send billions of dollars and high-tech equipment to the war.

00:03:53.180 However, there's not a lot of talk of peace or diplomacy. Well, today we're going to spend some

00:04:00.060 time with one of the few politicians in Canada who's willing to be contrarian on this subject.

00:04:06.060 I refer, of course, to Maxime Bernier, the leader of the People's Party of Canada.

00:04:10.460 He joins us now from Montreal via Skype. Maxime Bernier, great to see you again. Thanks for taking the time with us.

00:04:16.460 Thank you, Ezra, for giving me that opportunity.

00:04:19.740 Well, it's a pleasure. And I don't want to be panicky. I don't want to be thin-skinned. I don't

00:04:27.820 want to be alarmist. And I certainly don't want to be a peacenik or someone who is, I don't know,

00:04:34.860 ideologically weak. But I don't think it's a sign of weakness to be concerned about a growing

00:04:41.340 convergence of men and materiel and rhetoric, war-like rhetoric when there's nuclear weapons

00:04:51.260 on the other side. I just think this is unlike any other conflict in the world, the Saudi-Yemen

00:04:58.620 conflict, for example, because at the end of the day, Russia has nukes. I have to tell you,

00:05:03.420 I'm a little bit scared of the brinksmanship here. That's my view. But enough from me. I'd like to hear

00:05:08.860 your views, and I'd like to hear them at length for our viewers.

00:05:12.780 Yes, you have a point there, Ezra. And as you know, in the legacy media, it's all about Ukraine.

00:05:20.860 And if you're not pro-Ukraine, you're pro-Putin, and you're not a good Canadian. You know,

00:05:27.660 there's only one narrative. And that's great that you are bringing the other side of the story.

00:05:34.380 That is very important. And actually, I was looking at a poll, I believe, a couple of days ago. And

00:05:42.140 that was saying that about 21 percent of Canadians are looking for an agreement, a peace agreement,

00:05:50.460 between Ukraine and Russia. So 21 percent, it's almost a quarter of the population when you have

00:05:59.260 only one narrative in the mainstream media. So imagine if these mainstream media were able to

00:06:07.420 be more neutral in that war. I believe that that percentage will have been a little bit higher.

00:06:14.140 That being said, it is not, you know, in our history, in our culture here in Canada to be pro-war.

00:06:21.020 And I'm looking at what is happening, like you said, in Parliament in Ottawa, all these establishment

00:06:27.420 political parties, including the NDP. You know, we must think that the NDP of Ed Broadbent and

00:06:35.020 Jack Layton were for peace at that time, but not right now with their new leader. They're with Trudeau,

00:06:43.980 like the Conservatives. But, you know, when you have a country like Russia, who's having the nuclear 0.54

00:06:51.260 power, it's very, very dangerous. And now we are seeing the U.S. that are saying they will give more

00:07:00.780 ammunitions, more equipment. And we are doing the same thing. And here in Canada, as you may know,

00:07:07.100 we gave about $4 billion to Ukraine. We are broke and we are giving money away and equipment.

00:07:15.980 Our Canadian forces didn't have the right equipment right now, and we are giving our equipment to

00:07:22.060 Ukraine. It's not our war. And, you know, I'm looking in the past, like Jean Chrétien, when the U.S.

00:07:29.340 wanted us to be part of the war in Iraq. And Chrétien said, no, there's no U.N. Security Council

00:07:37.260 decision on that. I won't participate in that war. Same thing like in the 1950s, during the Suez

00:07:45.740 crisis, the Canal of Suez crisis in the 1950s, our country was a peacemaker. And we were not part of

00:07:56.380 that conflict. So there's a lot of precedent, historical precedent. And now we didn't have

00:08:02.380 any debates in Parliament in Ottawa about the position of our country. And we are making Russia 1.00

00:08:10.140 an enemy of our country, when Russia is our neighbor. And I must admit, Israel, that I'm more 0.99

00:08:18.220 scared about China than Russia. So we, the PPC, we have a position that is for peace and prosperity.

00:08:26.060 And I said that in the beginning of that conflict. It is not our conflict. And usually, you know,

00:08:32.140 Ukraine is not a member of NATO. We are a member of NATO. And being a member of NATO,

00:08:38.220 we have the obligation to help other countries, other members' countries, when a war happens. But

00:08:45.900 Ukraine is not part of NATO. And we are there fighting against Russia. It's a proxy war for me,

00:08:54.460 between the US and Russia. And, you know, 80% of the world is looking at that. So there's no unanimity,

00:09:02.380 like the mainstream media try to tell us all over the globe that everybody is pro-Ukraine. No,

00:09:08.620 it's more complicated than that. And I believe that it is not our war. And I'm a little bit scared about

00:09:14.860 what can happen in the near future because of the nuclear weapons that Russia has. So we don't know

00:09:23.180 what can happen. And our role must be to try to have a ceasefire and try to promote peace and prosperity.

00:09:31.580 But I'm the only one in Canada as the leader of a national political party that is saying that.

00:09:38.620 You know, I remember when Canada wanted to be the fair dealer, the middleman, the peace broker.

00:09:45.660 You know, that was a stance that Canada took sometimes in Middle Eastern entanglements.

00:09:51.980 And peacekeeping was our forte. You don't hear a lot of talk about either of those things now.

00:09:58.620 You know, it's interesting you mentioned that there was no debate, let alone a vote in parliament. I

00:10:03.500 remember when the United States deposed Muammar Gaddafi in Libya. And Muammar Gaddafi did not have

00:10:13.740 nuclear weapons. He was actually easy pickings. I think that that's been a terrible,

00:10:19.020 there have been terrible consequences. I think that started a massive migration crisis in Europe.

00:10:27.340 I think it helped start a lot of terrorists and open air slave markets again. I think 0.90

00:10:32.780 terrible things have come. Canada had a small role in that. I think we sent one ship and had some planes.

00:10:39.820 Stephen Harper was the prime minister of the day, if I recall. He allowed a debate in parliament,

00:10:45.100 which is more than I think Trudeau has done here. And I think he allowed a vote. I'm going from

00:10:51.260 memory. You might remember better than me. And I remember Elizabeth May of the Green Party

00:10:55.500 was against it. And I have many disagreements with her, but that is the green point of view.

00:10:59.900 Peace. Let's solve things. Let's not just smash things. And I guess the reason I refer to that is

00:11:05.980 because I think Stephen Harper was under enormous pressure to go along with the US, even though Libya 0.96

00:11:13.580 really isn't our quarrel. But he went along in the most minimal way, like deploying a ship,

00:11:19.580 and there were no troops on the ground. There was no risk to Canadians. There was no risk of nuclear

00:11:23.660 missiles being lobbed at us. There was a debate. I think Canada went along in a grudging way,

00:11:28.700 but it was enough for the United States to say, okay, our ally Canada was there with us.

00:11:34.060 We didn't lose face. But what's happening under Trudeau is very different. No vote,

00:11:39.180 no debate, serious commitment of money and military equipment. And most importantly,

00:11:45.900 there is a risk that Russia will respond not just to Ukraine, but outside that theater of war.

00:11:52.300 What happened, not just to Trudeau, but what happened to the left? Where is the Elizabeth

00:12:00.140 May of 2023 voting against this war, or at least speaking against the war? Where's all the peaceniks? 0.95

00:12:08.620 You're right about that. And I believe that they are pro-war, the green and the NDP and liberals and

00:12:17.900 conservatives, because of the propaganda machine. I believe that the legacy media were very good to

00:12:25.740 be 100% pro-Ukraine, and it was very popular. And so if you're a member of parliament in the opposition,

00:12:34.140 you want to be with the majority. And still today, a majority of Canadians are okay with that war.

00:12:42.060 So they're not able to have the other point of view in front of them. So that's why you have a huge

00:12:49.100 majority for that war, and for the participation of our country in that war. And these politicians

00:12:59.420 don't have any conviction, and they're following the majority of the population. But if you're a leader,

00:13:08.220 you must lead. And you must have strong ideas and try to present them to these ideas to Canadians.

00:13:16.380 And that is what we are doing. You know, it's not popular. That position about being pro-peace and

00:13:23.420 prosperity and for a diplomatic solution, that solution is not popular. But I believe that if you

00:13:30.140 look at the history, and if you look at that conflict with what happened the last couple of

00:13:36.300 months, that must be the position. And I was pleased to see in France, there's a couple of former

00:13:44.060 diplomats that said, you know, it's a long war, and it's a little bit too long, and it's very dangerous.

00:13:50.300 We must find a way to get out of that war. And you know, these territories, like you said,

00:13:57.660 Donbass and Crimea, they were under different jurisdictions the last 200 years. So we must

00:14:08.700 have a discussion with other countries about that, and maybe these territories will stay with Russia,

00:14:16.380 and we need to have as soon as possible that ceasefire. But what we are doing, we, the West,

00:14:23.180 we are pushing, like you said in the beginning, we are pushing Russia in the arms of China. And our, 0.56

00:14:31.180 you know, sanctions, financial sanctions were not efficient. The ruble went to the roof,

00:14:39.580 the economy is going well in Russia. And now they're dealing and selling their oil and gas to

00:14:47.100 other countries in Middle East and in China. So we, if you look at the situation, the global situation,

00:14:57.980 the political situation in the West and East and with China, it's a big mess because of the participation 1.00

00:15:06.940 of the US and us in that war. You know, I just feel like everything is ratcheting it up. It's a

00:15:14.300 brinksmanship. It's like a poker game when each side is raising the stakes again and again and again.

00:15:20.140 Yeah, I don't want to, it's, I don't think the analogy is perfect with World War One,

00:15:24.860 but you had so many alliances and so many things that were triggered by the assassination of the

00:15:30.780 Archduke. And then that made one domino fall and then another and then another. And everyone was

00:15:36.780 sort of pulled into a war that no one had foreseen. I think what you have here in Ukraine is such

00:15:44.060 escalating rhetoric, whether it's from Zelensky or the prime minister of the UK, who's talking about

00:15:49.020 long range weapons or Joe Biden visiting and it's just, everything is getting more and more intense.

00:15:56.220 And I just don't see an off ramp there. I mean, I, I, it feels like a brinksmanship.

00:16:03.820 I don't know why Canada is getting swept up in it. Maybe it's diaspora politics. Is it because

00:16:08.300 there's so many Ukrainian Canadians? Is it, are they, is it just an appeal for that vote domestically? Or is

00:16:14.940 it pressure from the, the Biden administration? Like why is Melanie Jolie giving a statement like this,

00:16:23.340 basically saying this is the most important thing in the world? Here's a quick clip of her.

00:16:26.780 Canadians know that in order to get to lasting peace, we need to make sure that we continue to

00:16:31.580 arm Ukraine. And when doing so, there's still a lot to do. And for sure, we will be doing more. That's 0.98

00:16:38.060 what I can tell you right now. What's that all about? Why is she doing that? Is it for votes? Or is it 1.00

00:16:42.620 pressure from Biden? Or does she actually believe it? Yeah, no, what she's saying, she's saying the same

00:16:48.460 thing that Biden said and other countries, you know, like Ukraine will win. But it would be very

00:16:57.740 difficult. They will have a lot of human life that, you know, Ukraine, I don't, I don't know how many 1.00

00:17:05.740 lives, men and women and children that died because of that war, you know, more, the more you are giving

00:17:15.980 ammunition, the more you are giving equipment, the more you are giving missiles to Ukraine,

00:17:20.860 the more debt you'll have. And I believe that actually, that the fact that they escalate that

00:17:29.500 conflict, and the fact that we don't have a leader, you know, leader of any countries that is very strong

00:17:40.380 about speaking about peace and prosperity, that's a little bit scary. Usually, when you have conflicts

00:17:46.380 like that, you have one or two or three countries that will be out there and promote a diplomatic

00:17:52.060 solution, a ceasefire. But we don't see that right now. And everybody are saying, you know, oh, that we

00:17:58.940 are ready for that war, we will give more equipment, more equipment means more debt. And for on both

00:18:07.180 sides. So there's no win-win in that situation. And I believe that our country is in that war,

00:18:16.060 proxy war against Russia, because of the big Canadian community from Ukraine origin, more than 1.2 million

00:18:26.940 people. And you know, they want to have their support, they want to buy vote. Actually, I was in Manitoba a

00:18:34.140 couple of days ago, and there's a lot of Canadians from Ukraine origin, and I was speaking about our

00:18:40.140 position. And I can tell you, Ezra, it was not popular. But I said to them, this must be the

00:18:46.860 situation, this must be the position of our country. It is too dangerous right now. And we can be in a

00:18:54.060 bigger conflict in a couple of weeks or months. So let's have, you know, let's put people around the

00:19:01.740 table and try to have a diplomatic solution. But I don't hear that outside our country and in Europe.

00:19:09.900 So that's why that nuclear war can happen a day. You know, I hope it won't, but it's a big risk.

00:19:20.860 And I believe that a lot of people don't understand that.

00:19:24.860 You know, when I was in Davos at the World Economic Forum a few weeks ago, I went to the Ukraine

00:19:30.540 pavilion. And the real emphasis there was on human casualties and civilian casualties. And they were

00:19:37.020 trying to make the legal case that it was war crimes. And I don't know if that, I don't know if

00:19:40.700 that's the case. I mean, obviously, civilians die in every war. That's a great tragedy. But it did soften

00:19:45.980 my heart. But it left me with the idea, you have all these Western politicians who were ready

00:19:51.820 ready to fight to the last Ukrainian. You know, I mean, it really has become a battleground 0.54

00:19:58.140 for the Warsaw Pact versus NATO. It's almost like the fight they never had during the Cold War

00:20:04.940 is being rerun now. And Ukraine is the unhappy location for it. So it increased my, going to this

00:20:12.540 Ukraine pavilion at Davos absolutely made me more sensitive to the human toll of it. But that didn't

00:20:19.420 make me more pro-war. That made me more pro-diplomatic solution. I just find it bizarre.

00:20:25.580 But you said something I'd like to follow up on. You said that you think that China is a greater threat

00:20:31.340 than Russia. And I think there's a lot of truth to that. But I'd like to understand why you think so. 0.92

00:20:36.700 And what kind of dangers you think China poses, not just to Canada, but to the world. And what do you

00:20:45.500 see with their increasing closeness with Russia in part over this Ukraine battle? Give me a few minutes

00:20:52.380 on your thoughts on China. Yes, absolutely. We've read in the news a couple of days ago about,

00:21:00.220 you know, a report coming from CSIS saying that China had a huge influence in our electoral process

00:21:07.820 at the last election. And they were, you know, favoring some candidates and they spend money to

00:21:15.260 help some candidates to be elected. But that's not only that, you know, the Chinese Communist Party

00:21:22.700 is spending money and he is giving money to some universities here in our country. They have a huge

00:21:30.140 influence in Nagel University and other universities across the country with their funding. And that must

00:21:37.660 be illegal. And also we know that the Chinese Communist Party has a police, Chinese police station in our

00:21:46.460 big cities in Toronto and Vancouver. That's illegal in line. It's, you know, if you look at the

00:21:54.220 international law, that is illegal. And the Trudeau government is not doing anything about that.

00:22:01.740 So I'm scary about that communist ideology that it's everywhere in our university, the socialism.

00:22:09.020 So that influence of China. And as you know, China also tried to buy our natural resources,

00:22:17.340 but at least we have a Canadian Investment Act. I was industry minister, so I know pretty well that act.

00:22:24.700 And when there's a huge investment for our natural resources or in another industry, the federal

00:22:31.980 government has the power to stop that. And if it's not in line with our Canadian interest. But I know

00:22:39.740 that China is looking at our natural resources. So they're everywhere. And you have the Trudeau government

00:22:47.020 that is doing, you know, no, for him, it's not so important. The biggest enemy of our country for

00:22:54.060 Trudeau is Russia. That's not must not be the case. That must be China. And as you know, I don't want to 0.65

00:23:02.220 have Russia as our enemy, because they are neighbors. And, and, you know, we, it's so dangerous for the 0.83

00:23:10.780 security of our country, what Trudeau is doing in Ukraine, and what Trudeau is not doing concerning

00:23:18.460 China. I think that for the last three years, the political attention span of Canadians has been

00:23:25.900 directed to the pandemic, to lockdowns, to the infringements on our personal liberties because of

00:23:34.300 these crazy years. And if there's any time left over after thinking about that, it's probably things

00:23:41.740 like the price of housing, the cost of living, inflation, the carbon tax. I mean, there's only

00:23:48.060 24 hours a day, and there's only so much time and attention people can pay to politics. I bet if there

00:23:53.660 was some way to measure, the amount of time people think about foreign policy has probably been,

00:24:01.020 I think it's very low. Now, I don't know how many ordinary people are focused on the Ukraine war,

00:24:08.700 because I feel like that's been propagated by our own media. They talk about it relentlessly. I don't

00:24:14.140 know if ordinary people talk about it over a water cooler. But I think that Canadians have generally

00:24:22.700 not been as foreign policy oriented as, say, the United States, because they're so important, they can

00:24:28.380 change the world. Just, you know, they have the military, they have the economy. We typically don't

00:24:34.700 make that much of a difference on our own. And I think, you know, as the diplomat a century ago said,

00:24:41.260 we're, you know, fireproof material far away from flammable, you know, we're a fireproof house far

00:24:47.740 away from flammable materials, I believe, is the old quote of the Canadian diplomat saying,

00:24:51.980 we don't have a lot to worry about here, thank God. So let me ask you this. Do Canadians care about

00:24:57.820 these things? Or is it just the latest thing, like, put a Black Lives Matter symbol on your

00:25:03.820 Twitter account? Okay, now put a gay pride flag on your Facebook account. Okay, now, what's the next 0.97

00:25:09.580 thing? Wear a mask. Okay, what, like, it's the next thing that, that people do to show that they're

00:25:15.420 fashionable? Is this, is foreign policy a serious concern for Canadians? Or is it just a fashion

00:25:22.620 that will be replaced in a year by something else? I believe that Canadians are following the trend, 0.90

00:25:29.420 and they are, you know, the influence of legacy media is huge. But also, I believe that Canadians

00:25:36.380 understand that our relationship with the US is very important. And, and I think they understand that,

00:25:43.580 but also what they must understand is, we have the right to say no to the US. We are friend,

00:25:49.900 a friend with the US. And, you know, we are a sovereign country at the same time. And actually,

00:25:55.820 Jean Chrétien did say yes to the US during the war in Iraq. He said, no, I won't participate in that

00:26:03.180 war. There's no UN security mandate. And I think that was a good, a good decision. But I believe that 0.90

00:26:11.740 Canadians are looking at the US and saying, okay, if it's good for the US, it must be good for us,

00:26:17.420 but not all the time. And, and now the influence of the mainstream media is huge with that war in

00:26:23.420 Ukraine. So it's, it's a challenge that we have in our country. When you speak about foreign policies, 0.55

00:26:31.980 it's a little bit more challenging for a politician to express that in more than a clip of five seconds

00:26:40.700 in the news. But that must, that's something that we must do. And I'm doing as a politician,

00:26:46.380 try to explain the file all together, and looking at it in a comprehensive manner.

00:26:58.940 Let me ask you one more question about public priorities, because I saw recently a poll by

00:27:05.500 Abacus Research, which is liberal aligned. So I think they're always going to give the benefit

00:27:10.220 of the doubt to the liberals. So when they say something surprising, that's critical of the

00:27:14.060 liberals, I pay attention, because I don't think it's in their nature. Their president, David Coletto,

00:27:19.420 recently posted a graph showing, well, there's a number of things, they had a graph showing the top

00:27:27.340 issues of Canadians. And of course, there was also a fascinating access to information document that

00:27:33.180 I saw published on what the top issues are that Canadians write to the prime minister about,

00:27:40.140 like by the hundreds of thousands. And what's interesting about both of these two things,

00:27:46.220 the polling numbers and the letters that people write to the prime minister,

00:27:50.540 they're not woke. They're not about obscure, woke issues like transgenderism or, you know,

00:27:59.020 global warming actually is very, very low on the list. It's things like, you know, like I said before,

00:28:06.300 the cost of living, prosperity, taxes, unemployment, the recession, people are worried about their jobs,

00:28:10.700 people can't keep up with expenses. And in a way, it's good that people are focused on important things.

00:28:17.420 But here's my question to you. Foreign, foreign affairs wasn't on those lists other than people

00:28:23.260 are, some people are concerned about Ukraine. But the trucker commission, the truck, the convoy,

00:28:30.620 the civil liberties blowout of the last three years, I think that a lot of people,

00:28:36.780 if they haven't forgotten about it, they're just happy to move on from it. And here's

00:28:40.380 my point. I'm sorry it's taken me so long to come to it.

00:28:42.700 No. I'm worried that these important issues like civil liberties and prosperity and peace,

00:28:52.300 I'm worried that they're fun for pundits to talk about and to debate about. But at the end of the

00:28:57.980 day, people are just going to vote for who they think is going to put the most money in their pocket

00:29:03.900 or take the least out of their pocket. And maybe that's the right thing. I wish people cared more

00:29:08.700 about civil liberties. I wish people more people cared about the trucker convoy and how Trudeau smashed

00:29:15.500 it. But but maybe they don't. Maybe that's gone. What do you think?

00:29:21.340 Yes, actually, also, because now it's not in the news anymore. And we know that inflation is real and

00:29:28.780 our standard of living is going down. So when you have a huge difficulty to bring food on your table,

00:29:37.180 that's your first concern. But, you know, all that wokeism and the fact that we cannot take for granted

00:29:43.980 our freedoms anymore in our country. I think it's in their mind, you know, in the back of their mind.

00:29:50.780 And when something will happen, we'll be back in the news. I believe people are going to be,

00:29:56.060 oh, no, no, that's important. Look at the woke in school and, and, you know, in journalism,

00:30:03.580 you know, when it's going too far. And I believe that when something happened, like, you know,

00:30:11.340 you have a teacher in Ontario that teach with a costume, as you know, with fake

00:30:17.980 breasts. And it's so it's so crazy. It's so it's not normal. I believe when you have something like 0.89

00:30:25.980 that, people will say, OK, enough is enough. But if nothing happened in the news, they will go back to

00:30:33.500 their first priority. That is their job, the standard of living. And I can understand that. So that's

00:30:40.220 why for us, we try to speak about these issues, foreign policies, immigration,

00:30:47.980 the war in Ukraine, wokeism. And we want people to know that there's other important challenges

00:30:56.060 that we have as a country. You say you're out there campaigning. You were in Manitoba recently,

00:31:02.140 you say. Do you think there's going to be election, an election in 2023? In some ways,

00:31:07.500 it makes sense. There was one in 2019, then 2021. It's almost goes to follow that there would be one

00:31:14.540 this year, especially given the minority government. Do you think that's going to happen?

00:31:19.900 For me, personally, I hope, you know, I'm tired of that government. And I hope that Canadians can go

00:31:26.940 as soon as possible and to vote for the party that they want. But I don't think so. I believe

00:31:33.180 that it is not in the advantage of the NDP to have an election. I believe that they will support Trudeau

00:31:39.980 in the next budget. But we never know. And as a political party, we need to be ready. And that's why

00:31:48.540 we will start in a couple of days, a call for candidates and being ready to have a candidate

00:31:54.860 in every riding. Our goal is to have a full slate of candidates at the next election and having our

00:32:01.260 candidates before the end of this year, because we don't know when the election will be. But also,

00:32:08.460 I understand that we will have a couple of by-elections in Canada in the next six months,

00:32:15.660 in Manitoba, in Ontario. I believe there will be about five by-elections. That will be a nice

00:32:22.220 opportunity for Canadians in these ridings to express their point of view about the situation in our

00:32:28.060 country. I wish we can have a general election soon, but I don't think so. I think the NDP will look at

00:32:34.860 their own interest, and it is not in their own interest to have an election right now.

00:32:40.940 I think you're probably right. One last question about elections. I remember in the last election,

00:32:46.860 you were banned from the leaders' debates, even though you met their thresholds. They came up with

00:32:56.140 some formula for who was allowed to be there and not. They kept you out. They did the same to us,

00:33:01.100 by the way, to Rebel News. They wouldn't let our journalists in. We went to the federal court,

00:33:06.300 and we won in an emergency application, and the court ordered them to accredit us. Now,

00:33:11.660 that's a little bit different than ordering them to let a candidate on the stage. I mean,

00:33:16.220 it was absurd that they kept us out. There were 200 journalists there. What difference did it make

00:33:21.260 for us to have a few? It's a little bit more sensitive, I guess, how many people get to be on the

00:33:26.060 table? But I think that was part of this groupthink. By keeping you off of that debate,

00:33:32.300 they ensured no one heard a different point of view. They did that in the Ontario election, too.

00:33:37.340 They didn't allow any smaller parties other than the Green Party, which was identical to the other

00:33:43.340 ones. They had the simulation of disagreement, but the actual dissenting parties weren't there.

00:33:49.740 Will you try to get access to the leaders' debates in the next election? And if they deny you access,

00:33:57.820 will you go to court? Everything is open, and I believe that I will be there because they said

00:34:06.140 at the last election, okay for Bernier or the People's Party of Canada, that new political party,

00:34:13.740 will need to have 4%, and we had 5%. So maybe they will change the rule again at the next election,

00:34:21.340 I don't know. But they said 4%, and we had 5% of the vote all across the country. So I will fight

00:34:29.500 for being there for sure. We have another point of view, and we are doing politics differently with

00:34:35.740 strong ideas and strong principles. So on a lot of important issues, we are the only party

00:34:42.540 that is bringing another perspective to a challenge that we have in our country. So yes, answering your

00:34:50.060 question, I'll do everything to be there, and if we need to sue them, it's open. I'm ready to do it,

00:34:57.420 absolutely. Well, I'll tell you one thing, we're glad we sued because not only did we win, but it showed

00:35:05.340 that you can sometimes challenge the establishment. It was one of the most exciting moments in our little

00:35:12.060 company's life, and I think you should hold them to account. That's just my view. I hate this closed

00:35:17.420 shop that they've got going on. Well, listen, it's great to catch up with you, and I really appreciate

00:35:21.740 you talking with me about China and Ukraine. I think that there is grounds to have a principled

00:35:29.580 disagreement with the current war strategy that doesn't make you a Putin agent. I am not a Putin

00:35:35.420 agent. I regard him as a, in fact, he's the former KGB officer who, you know, I have no time for him.

00:35:43.340 He's an authoritarian bully who invaded another country, but that doesn't mean that when I say

00:35:49.900 that we shouldn't go to war with him, a nuclear-powered country, it doesn't mean a nuclear-armed 0.95

00:35:55.500 country, it doesn't mean that I'm on his side. I just feel like there's so little debate, and I really

00:36:01.420 appreciate you sharing your thoughts. Give us one last word before we say goodbye.

00:36:07.100 Yeah, thank you for that opportunity, Ezra, and you know, I really appreciate what you're doing

00:36:11.420 as an independent media. It's important to be able to have you there, and you are like, I like your

00:36:19.100 slogan, the other side of the story. Absolutely, you're right. So for us, we will continue to do what

00:36:25.340 we are doing, and I just want to assure everybody, if they want to know more about our party, they can

00:36:31.180 go on our website, People's Party of Canada.ca, and just read our policies, our platform, and actually,

00:36:37.820 it will be the same one in one month, or two years, or when the election will come. That's why we are

00:36:43.420 doing politics based on principles. So if you like what I'm saying, what we are fighting for, I hope

00:36:50.780 you'll support us, and if you don't like what I'm saying, please don't support us. There's other

00:36:56.540 establishment political parties that you can vote for. So that's why I want people to vote for what

00:37:02.860 they believe in line with their values, and our goal is to try to represent these values with our

00:37:09.420 political offer. So thank you, Ezra, and have a nice day. Thank you, my friend. There you have it,

00:37:15.420 Maxime Bernier, the leader of the People's Party of Canada. Stay with us. My final thoughts are next.

00:37:20.780 Well, I like Maxime Bernier. I like him for a number of reasons. First of all,

00:37:34.700 he's open to talking to a variety of people out there, not just government-approved media party

00:37:40.220 journalists. He has plenty of time for independent media too. I also like his libertarian streak. I

00:37:45.500 like the fact that he's contrarian, that he's willing to say things even if it offends certain

00:37:50.700 unoffendable groups in society. He's a Quebecer who's pro-Alberta oil pipeline, and he's a Quebecer

00:37:57.100 who has challenged the dairy boards, for example. Those are things that are not common for someone from

00:38:02.780 that province. You heard that he was willing to endure criticism by going to Manitoba, which has a

00:38:08.940 large Ukrainian-Canadian population, and saying he does not support the war in Ukraine. I think that's

00:38:14.700 a principled position he takes. It's my position as well, and it's not based on any hostility to Ukraine

00:38:19.820 or support for Russia. It's based on just this feeling that we are racing, hurtling towards a war

00:38:28.300 whose terms of victory are unknown to me. And the only ones I can discern, total victory over Russia, 0.72

00:38:35.260 regime change over Russia, retake Crimea, extirpate every Russian soldier, and smash Russia, 0.85

00:38:43.660 they feel like emotional calls to action rather than genuine geopolitical or diplomatic goals.

00:38:52.460 And those might have been achievable if you were going against some minor dictator like Muammar Gaddafi,

00:38:59.340 as Stephen Harper did a decade or more ago. But going against Vladimir Putin with a sizable economy

00:39:05.900 and a sizable nuclear arsenal, just, I do not understand where we're going, let alone what the

00:39:13.260 motivation is for going there. And suddenly Canada, the great peacekeeping country, the country of peace,

00:39:19.180 and the country of Justin Trudeau, who once mocked generals for whipping out their CF-18s and seeing how

00:39:25.580 big they are. Remember that insult? All of a sudden that Justin Trudeau is very butch and going to

00:39:31.980 Kiev to talk about war and sending one tank, which is all we can spare. I don't get it and I don't

00:39:40.300 understand it. And the fact that we haven't had a whole debate on the subject, let alone a vote,

00:39:45.900 tells me that something's wrong. That's not being anti-Ukrainian. As I say, my own family came from

00:39:51.100 Ukraine originally. That's just not wanting to get into a war with a nuclear armed opponent.

00:39:57.180 If that's contrarian, well, so be it. Those are my thoughts and you heard Maxime Bernier's thoughts.

00:40:02.460 That's our show for today. Until next time, on behalf of all of us at Rebel News,

00:40:06.380 to you at home, good night and keep fighting for freedom.

00:40:13.500 We'll see you if you're next week.

Rebel News Podcast - March 01, 2023

EZRA LEVANT ｜ Breaking the mold on foreign policy： An interview with Maxime Bernier

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