Pastor Derek Reimer went to a drag queen story hour in Calgary, Alberta, Canada, and was heckled. He was given a $10,000 fine and a year in jail for "incorrectly disapproving of LGBTQ+ ideas." The city has a new law that makes it a crime to be "disapproving" of such ideas. We talk to Pastor Reimer's lawyer, who is on the case, and get a feature interview with him.
00:23:36.980Except as specified below, you must not attend at or within 200 meters of the addresses or locations described as any LGBTQ2S plus community event.
00:23:50.700He's literally banned from talking to any person who is gay or identifies as gay or is just gender fluid but not gay.
00:24:02.460And apparently every gay person is banned from speaking with him.
00:25:02.120Look, they got away with this for Arthur.
00:25:04.000Don't you think they learned a lesson from that?
00:25:06.660Sure, Arthur, Pastor Arthur Pawlowski eventually won at the Court of Appeal.
00:25:11.680Two and a half years later, after 50 days in jail, after hundreds of thousands of dollars in legal fees.
00:25:18.780Yeah, Pastor Arthur won too many more victories like that, and we've lost this whole thing.
00:25:24.260Imagine if this order said you can't talk to any black people.
00:25:28.960You just can't communicate with any black people.
00:25:30.980Well, even your friends, even your family, at least then you could probably identify a black person and not run into legal trouble.
00:25:38.520Although, how black is black enough to be in trouble?
00:25:41.860During more racist times, like slavery in the U.S. South, they had to come up with these rules.
00:25:47.460They had an atrocious vocabulary of racism.
00:25:50.780There were black people, then there were people who were called mulatto, and then they had these terrible words, quadroon, octoroon.
00:25:59.640We never even hear these words anymore.
00:26:01.520This was the official racist language of the South, because how black did someone have to be to be banned from certain things?
00:26:09.120Apartheid South Africa had to do the same thing, too.
00:26:12.960Nazi Germany had to do the same thing with Jews.
00:26:15.020They came up with the concept of mischling, a mixling.
00:26:18.380If you were half Jewish, that was obviously far too Jewish.
00:26:23.100If you were mixling first degree, mixling second degree, if you had one Jewish grandparent, you wouldn't be killed, but you would not be allowed to join the SS, for example.
00:26:34.800These are insane rules when you're trying to pass laws regarding race.
00:26:39.580At least with race, you could maybe spot someone, but how do you know who's gay or not?
00:26:44.880What kind of law, how on earth is that possibly constitutional?
00:26:49.140And doesn't that violate the rights of gay people to talk to Pastor Derek?
00:26:54.340Not everyone who's gay or LGBTQS plus agrees with drag queen's story hour, but this justice of the peace has conscripted them to his bizarre army.
00:27:06.880This is happening in Calgary, allegedly the most conservative city in the country, and the only media coverage is to cheer it on.
00:27:47.940He may even ought to have been cast out of a library room if he was disrupting people who were gathered there willingly and he was messing things up.
00:27:58.180I get it, although I think they put hands on him in a way that someone else would have been charged with assault.
00:28:02.840But to charge a pastor with crimes in the criminal court, to hold him in jail where, I tell you, in this country, terrorists, accused terrorists are allowed on bail, tells you how serious a position we are in.
00:28:19.860And joining us now via Skype from Calgary is a criminal lawyer.
00:28:25.080And I hate the fact that a criminal lawyer has to be retained to fight for the freedom of a Christian pastor who simply expressed his dissent.
00:28:59.660Well, thank you, and I want to brag about you.
00:29:03.900You and I have spoken once or twice on the phone.
00:29:05.820One of my favorite things about you is that you're classmates and friends with Sarah Miller, who is well known to our viewers as the tireless defender of Pastor Arthur Pawlowski.
00:29:56.000I recall the mayor, Jody Gondek, went on Twitter and had sort of a tantrum saying she rejected the, quote, reasons, and she put that in scare quotes.
00:30:04.980She rejected the reasons why police and prosecutors, she said, were not charging Pastor Derek after he was thrown out of that drag queen story hour.
00:30:15.500And after she went on that Twitter tantrum, then they did, in fact, arrest him.
00:30:20.500I mean, that just stinks of political interference to me.
00:30:25.400I mean, Danielle Smith got in trouble with the media party and the opposition for saying she would consider staying some prosecutions that weren't in the public interest against some lockdown targets.
00:30:38.720Here, the mayor practically commands the police to do her bidding, and they do it.
00:32:28.660I understand there was causing a disturbance and a mischief charge.
00:32:32.660I saw reports in the media about hate crime charges as well.
00:32:38.020So far, have there been any hate crime charges or an element of hate crimes that has been mentioned by police or prosecutors?
00:32:48.800So no, hate crime isn't an express charge in the criminal code.
00:32:57.100But there are charges within the criminal code that more appropriately would cover things that most people would consider to be a hate crime.
00:33:05.880To my knowledge, Mr. Reimer has not been charged with anything like that.
00:33:10.900The charges that he is facing under the criminal code are in mischief and cause disturbance.
00:33:16.400Now, in our system, after and if Mr. Reimer is sentenced, a judge can consider whether or not the offenses relate to a hate motivation as an aggravating or a factor to be considered that would increase the penalty.
00:33:37.380So that could come into play later on, but we're far, far away from that.
00:33:44.300There would have to be a finding of guilt first.
00:33:47.380Well, I certainly hope it doesn't come to that.
00:33:50.060And I find it terrifying that a Christian pastor who was not uttering threats, was not engaged in any violence or anything that we would normally call a crime, could be faced with a criminal conviction, let alone a hate crime conviction.
00:34:43.200I've explained the lay of the land, the next steps.
00:34:46.840Those are kinds of the, you know, in terms of broad scopes, the conversations that we've had.
00:34:53.080Again, we're so early on in these proceedings, I don't have any disclosure yet from either of the Crown's offices.
00:35:00.360So discussions between Mr. Reimer and I are mostly centered around how to ensure he can do all that he can to abide by the conditions he's under.
00:35:11.060Well, I want to talk about that, if you don't mind, because often when someone is released, you know, I haven't done criminal law in a long time.
00:35:19.520I was a lawyer way back in the day, Ben, but I haven't said I haven't darkened the doorstep of a courthouse other than, you know, in civil litigation, often on free speech matters.
00:35:30.740But when I was a criminal lawyer, there were two main questions that were decided if someone should be released on bail.
00:35:37.200Because, number one, were they a danger to the community?
00:35:40.920And number two, were they a flight risk?
00:35:43.360Were they a risk of running away and never coming back to the hearing?
00:35:47.420Now, there's, I guess there's a third condition, sort of general, you know, community conditions.
00:35:53.040But I would think that Pastor Derek Reimer, there was no violence afoot.
00:36:16.380But one of the bail conditions is the strangest thing I've ever seen in my life.
00:36:20.480That he is barred from contacting anyone in the, and I'm going to try and get this right, the LGBT2Q plus community, which I think means anyone who's gay or trans or I think the Q is, 2Q is, I think, queer and questioning.
00:36:42.420Like, it's such a huge, expansive list.
00:36:45.940And how do you know if someone is gay?
00:36:53.300How on earth can someone be told you're allowed out of jail, but you're not allowed to contact any gay people, even your friends and family, even a shopkeeper or a barista?
00:37:20.660So any kind of condition that's placed on release, there's a couple different avenues that council can go down to try to get them altered or varied.
00:38:07.560What if they said you can't come into contact with anyone who's Jewish or anyone who's black?
00:38:14.240What if someone was told those things?
00:38:15.980It wouldn't just be an impairment on the person who was ordered.
00:38:19.260It would be an impairment on anyone who is Jewish or black or, in this case, gay.
00:38:23.360Like, if you're a gay person, are you allowed to contact Pastor Reimer?
00:38:26.920Well, of course, because there's no rule against the general public.
00:38:32.400But it's just, like you say, it is so impossible to comply with this because it's so odd and strange.
00:38:39.880It does not feel like a standard rule.
00:38:43.060It feels, to quote the Constitution, there's a section there that there may be no cruel or unusual treatment.
00:38:50.760This certainly feels unusual, and it may even be cruel to say to a man, you can't talk to any friends or family who are gay.
00:38:58.040I just find it the strangest thing, and I find that the city is—this is what I mean by politicization, this bail condition.
00:39:05.940Do we have a court date for the next hearing?
00:39:09.340Today you were in court for administrative matters.
00:39:12.400Is there a timeline laid out for things?
00:39:15.080I guess the Crown has to give you disclosure of their case.
00:39:17.420Is there something else that's been locked in, or are things still up in the air?
00:39:23.760No, nothing's really locked in, as you'd say.
00:39:26.920Again, right now, it's so early on, it's hard to tell exactly what the next step should be.
00:39:33.100So there will be some communications between myself and the various Crown's offices that make decisions as to what happens next.
00:39:39.960In terms of next court date, I did appear for Mr. Reimer today, and so his next date was adjourned to March 29th in courtroom 308 in the Calgary Courthouse.
00:39:51.700So at that time, I'll be speaking to his matter again, and hopefully I'll be able to advise the court on what the next step is going to be.
00:40:00.380And will that be a substantive hearing?
00:40:02.500Will that be a bail review, or what would that be on March 29th?
00:40:07.260Nothing substantive is going to happen on March 29th.
00:40:11.360At the most, scheduling is going to happen for something substantive further down the road.
00:40:16.920But I'll have to wait and see how discussions with the Crown go and whether or not a bail review is going to be necessary for these matters.
00:40:24.360Well, Ben, I appreciate you taking the time.
00:40:27.700I like your calm, cool, collected approach, and I think that's necessary in a hot case like this.
00:40:35.540I think you need a criminal defense lawyer who can just look at the law and look at the facts and be above the political fray, and I like the fact that you mentioned that.
00:40:44.620What's interesting to me is the international attention this case has received.
00:40:48.380I've seen a lot of coverage, I mean, frankly, a lot of media in Calgary covered it, and I know for a fact there was coverage on the largest show on cable TV in America, Tucker Carlson's show on Fox.
00:41:00.200I heard from my colleague Sheila Gunn-Reed that only Sheila and our reporter Angelica Toy, they were the only reporters in court today.
00:41:10.060Have you seen, I guess it's only been recently that you've been Pastor Derek's lawyer.
00:41:19.100I just hope that they cover more than just the accusation against him.
00:41:23.740I hope they cover his defense, and I hope they cover the other point of view, and I hope they see the dangers of the precedent that's being set here.
00:41:32.160I guess you're just so new on the file, and people maybe don't know that you're the lawyer involved, but I take it that other media haven't contacted you yet.
00:41:42.820Yeah, I'm very new on this file, and when you're new on the file and obtaining instructions on what to say and to whom you should speak to, that's always a little slow in the beginning.
00:41:53.860So, again, it's early days to see what's going to happen, but in the meantime, I'll do whatever I can to fight for Mr. Reimer's rights and to ensure he's treated fairly.
00:42:05.880Well, listen, you're such a good sport for talking with me.
00:42:08.360I know you're a man of the court, the court of law, not so much the court of public opinion, but I think this battle will be in both.
00:42:14.960And I want to invite our viewers to chip in to help cover Pastor Derek's legal fees and to pay Ben Allison's fees.
00:42:26.920As you know, we've been fighting for Pastor Arthur Pawlowski for three years, and I think he's had 16 appearances in court in that time, and I hope it won't be as many for Pastor Derek.
00:42:36.460But if you want to help keep Ben Allison of Shorey Law on the file, go to SavePastorDerek.com, and those donations go to the Democracy Fund, not Rebel News.
00:42:46.600They go to the Democracy Fund, and you will, in fact, receive a charitable tax credit for it.
00:42:52.900I know you're more a man of the court than a man of political pundit panels, so I appreciate you joining us today.
00:42:58.720And we're going to support you journalistically, and we're going to support you financially, and we know you'll do your best legally, and hopefully we'll have a result that gives us expanded civil liberties.
00:43:10.280Because whether or not you agree with Pastor Derek, either his views on drag queens or Christianity or whatever, the freedom that he uses today is the freedom that you will use tomorrow.
00:43:22.680That's why precedents are so important.
00:43:24.500And we have to fight for freedom, even for cantankerous people, because if they can go for him today, they'll go for you the next day.
00:43:32.240Good luck in there, Ben, and we'll keep following the story.
00:45:13.580But that doesn't mean I support Zelensky, who has made extreme comments like reconquering Crimea or that Western army should fight in Russia and our children, our boys and girls should die.
00:45:27.720He actually said something to that effect.
00:45:29.420So I don't know why you think I'm a Zelensky shill or a Putin shill.
00:45:34.740I'm just a Canadian who doesn't like this war, who doesn't like the civilian carnage, who doesn't like solving problems through wars, who wants a diplomatic solution, and who thinks that sending money over there is risky from an accountability and accounting point of view.
00:45:52.480So I have no idea why you would say the things you said in your letter.
00:45:57.920Tyson says, hey, Ezra, about our call for regime change to Russia as a Western Canadian to Russia, I would welcome a regime change in Canada.
00:46:06.500I also think Putin would be relatively kind to Western Canada, not just for geographical reasons, but as a token of good faith to show us how he wants to see us win again.
00:46:14.680Maybe I sound crazy, but this does not sound like too bad of a future.
00:46:17.740Well, I disagree with you, and Russia is not a totalitarian regime like it was under the Soviet Union, but neither is it completely free.
00:46:30.660Putin is effectively a president for life.
00:46:33.580The elections there are not fair or open.
00:46:38.260Political leaders are attacked, jailed on trumped-up charges, sometimes even poisoned.
00:46:44.440I think there's no doubt that Vladimir Putin is a brutal person, former KGB agent, and as we discussed yesterday, he's an invader of his neighbors, whether it's Georgia or Ukraine.
00:46:56.500I don't think he would want to be ruled by Putin.
00:46:59.680I don't think he would like the approach to civil liberties.
00:47:02.940Now, it's not the caricature that we see in the media party.
00:47:06.540For example, when we sent our reporter Jeremy Lafredo to Moscow to do Streeters, I thought there's no way that people are going to openly criticize the war or Putin on camera without hiding their face.
00:47:20.020And some people didn't want to talk to us on camera, but others did.
00:47:23.980We had people on camera saying, I'm opposed to the war, I'm opposed to Putin, and for a number of reasons.
00:47:31.580So I don't think that Russia is totalitarian.
00:47:48.280But I do believe that we need to have a diplomatic negotiated solution.
00:47:54.100And I just don't hear that language from Biden, from the Canadian side, or from the British side.
00:47:59.860Other countries, like I follow Viktor Orban, the Hungarian leader, online, and literally every day he's tweeting about a diplomatic, peaceful solution to the war.
00:48:10.500And I just think, how is that not the default position for any of us?
00:48:15.880Benjamin says, Dear Ezra, I know that this may seem unfair to those that wish to immigrate to Canada legally and take the appropriate steps to enter the country properly, but something has to be done about Rocks and Road.
00:48:25.920Why not, instead of giving the asylum seekers social assistance in a hotel room, give them a temporary work permit and some resources to find employment?
00:48:33.580Limit the free accommodations and make attempts to integrate them into society.
00:48:37.040The work permit should come and strict limits and should be renewable upon conditions, such having an positive employer reference and positive landlord reference.
00:48:46.800Well, really, what you're doing, what you're saying is what there is now.
00:48:51.640I mean, a number of these people do work.
00:48:53.460Some of them go on welfare, but many of them have been here for years.
00:48:57.840I mean, the first Rocks and Road border crossers were in January 2017.
00:49:03.160So there have been people who cross Rocks and Road six years ago.
00:49:07.200I have no doubt that some of them have married, have got children born here.
00:49:15.060So what you're saying is actually happening.
00:49:17.380I just say that that is wrong legally because they're not refugees.
00:49:22.420Diplomatically, we shouldn't be letting America get rid of its fake refugees in our country.
00:49:28.940And morally, I don't believe in rewarding people whose very first act in Canada is breaking our law, whose very first words they hear from the RCMP is you're under arrest.
00:49:41.800So I'm going to politely agree with you and say we should just put up a chain link fence there and direct them to the regular border crossing and just do what Canada and the U.S. have done for decades, which is have an unmanned, unguarded border.
00:49:56.940But anyone caught crossing is deported.
00:50:00.400You know, some controversial and spicy emails today.