Rebel News Podcast - EZRA LEVANT ｜ Could judges jeopardize independence？ Keith Wilson on Alberta's next steps

00:00:00.000 Hello, my friends. Today, a feature interview with Keith Wilson. You may know him as the

00:00:04.420 lawyer for the Freedom Convoy of Truckers, but he's also deeply involved in the Alberta

00:00:08.420 independence movement. We'll talk to him about the latest, including a dramatic court case

00:00:12.440 and new legislation touching on an independence referendum. But first, let me invite you to

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00:00:35.840 help us out.

00:00:40.760 You're listening to a Rebel News Podcast.

00:00:43.120 Tonight, is Alberta independence going to be thwarted by judges? It's December 5th,

00:00:57.720 and this is the Ezra LeVant Show.

00:01:02.340 Shame on you, you censorious bug.

00:01:14.260 So much is happening in Alberta. Now, sometimes I think I oversample Alberta news because I'm

00:01:20.020 from Alberta myself. I feel like I'm sort of in exile here in Toronto, but no, I think Alberta

00:01:25.720 genuinely, objectively, is one of the newsiest provinces out there. I mean, I know Ontario is

00:01:33.000 larger, both in terms of population and economy, but proportionately, would you object to me saying

00:01:39.920 that Alberta is the idea champion of the country economically, pound for pound, person per person?

00:01:47.300 It has a very high GDP because of the oil and gas industry. It's the most free market of places,

00:01:52.980 and it has something in the air. I mean, think of all the political movements that have started

00:01:57.920 in Alberta, and all the political champions, whether it's Preston Manning, Stephen Harper,

00:02:03.300 or going back to social credit, or even the NDP could accurately be said to have emerged

00:02:08.480 from the Alberta soil. It is a laboratory for ideas, and so we have to treat it seriously,

00:02:15.400 I think disproportionately. I mean, yes, things are happening in British Columbia, and yes,

00:02:20.080 they're happening in Quebec, but Alberta, I think, is the most interesting of provinces. What do you

00:02:26.440 think of that? Well, as you know, last week I went to Alberta. I went for two reasons. First,

00:02:30.920 I went to see the Memorandum of Understanding unveiled between Mark Carney and Danielle Smith.

00:02:37.780 Here's a quick clip of how that looked, and that was just over a week ago.

00:02:45.400 All right, so the way we've done this before, I've got to get his sign in and look up.

00:02:58.660 Okay, you want to sign in and look up? They won't be able to tell if it's just a photo.

00:03:01.780 All right.

00:03:11.220 There we go.

00:03:12.220 There we go.

00:03:13.220 There we go.

00:03:14.220 There we go.

00:03:15.220 That's pretty good one, I'm not sure.

00:03:18.220 Lost art.

00:03:19.220 Thanks.

00:03:20.220 Is that how he does it?

00:03:24.220 I think you've got a little thumbs up.

00:03:28.220 He reads his signature still. Do you want to stand and do it?

00:03:38.220 No.

00:03:39.220 Do you want to smile?

00:03:41.220 Well, I was immediately skeptical. As you know, Sheila Gunn-Reed and I put some questions

00:03:48.220 to Premier Smith. We're sympathetic to the Premier. I've known her for quite a while and I really think

00:03:52.220 she's doing the right thing. She's fighting for freedom. She says it's a grand bargain to be done

00:03:58.220 with Mark Carney. Oh, that may be. And in a bargain and a compromise, you always have to put some water

00:04:03.220 in your wine. But in my questions, I was worried that Mark Carney gets all the goodies up front.

00:04:10.220 The increasing of the carbon tax and the proposed pipeline, well, if it comes at all, comes as late as 2040.

00:04:18.220 Here's my question to the Premier.

00:04:20.220 The first deadline in the MOU, if I'm reading it right, is April, where the duty is on Alberta to jack up carbon taxes.

00:04:31.220 And the last date in the MOU, if I'm reading it right, correct me if I'm not, is 2040.

00:04:37.220 That's when this pipeline, that's sort of the end date. It can't be any later than that.

00:04:42.220 In terms of building trust with the anti-oil liberals, they're asking Alberta to raise carbon taxes now

00:04:50.220 for a promise of an oil pipeline years or even more than a decade in the future. Does that really build trust?

00:04:58.220 Well, you have to start somewhere. And one thing I would say is that we did have the Supreme Court of Canada rule

00:05:06.220 rule on the federal government's ability to set a price on emissions. So the Supreme Court has ruled on that.

00:05:13.220 It's part of the reason why we negotiated a stringency agreement that would have seen the carbon tax price go up to $170 a barrel by 2030.

00:05:23.220 We've demonstrated, and I think the Prime Minister agrees, that's too high too fast. So that's why we understand that there was always going to be a negotiation around that.

00:05:33.220 We froze the carbon tax at $95 pending consultation with the industry and greater work with the Prime Minister.

00:05:39.220 But remember, Alberta was the first to have an industrial carbon price. We implemented that in 2007.

00:05:45.220 It's generated revenues that allowed us to invest billions of dollars in new technologies, including carbon capture.

00:05:51.220 So there is a commitment on the part of the industry to have a carbon price, and we did do some consultation on that.

00:05:57.220 We're just glad that we have the means to manage it our way in Alberta under our tier program, and we'll see as of April 1st.

00:06:06.220 And no, that wasn't a joke. April 1st is going to be the date that we have an agreement on that front.

00:06:13.220 When it comes to the building of a bitumen pipeline to Asian markets to the BC coast, if you read the MOU, those two things have to happen in tandem.

00:06:23.220 That we have to see the Pathways project proceeding at the same time as an agreement to build that.

00:06:28.220 One is dependent on the other. I don't know that the Prime Minister would have agreed to a new bitumen pipeline without Pathways,

00:06:34.220 and we wouldn't have agreed to Pathways without a new bitumen pipeline. So they are going to be staged.

00:06:39.220 They are going to go on together. We've already had a meeting with Pathways about how we're going to do that.

00:06:44.220 That will require a trilateral negotiation as well. But I'm very hopeful.

00:06:49.220 Since we have used carbon capture technology before for enhanced oil recovery, that's another part of this announcement,

00:06:55.220 is that CO2 will be able to be used for enhanced oil recovery, which should allow us to generate more revenue.

00:07:05.220 So I would say that you don't always get 100% of what you want, but we addressed seven out of the nine bad laws that I put on the table to, I think, what will be the satisfaction of Albertans.

00:07:16.220 And I think that this will allow us to see some substantial investments.

00:07:21.220 Well, a couple days later, the Alberta government had the convention of its party, the UCP, the United Conservative Party.

00:07:30.220 You might recall that for a while there, the Wild Rose Party broke off from the PCs and the New Democrats shockingly came up the middle.

00:07:39.220 It was a huge conference, about 4,000 people.

00:07:42.220 Rebel News was there in force.

00:07:44.220 Sheila Gunn-Reed, Sid Fizzard, Angelica Toy.

00:07:48.220 We were there.

00:07:49.220 Lise Merle came in from Saskatchewan.

00:07:51.220 I want to show you a couple of clips from the premier's speech.

00:07:54.220 She didn't just talk about things like oil and gas.

00:07:58.220 She talked also, I thought, interestingly, about immigration.

00:08:02.220 Take a look.

00:08:03.220 Alberta has had a history of healthy levels of primarily economic immigrants able to easily integrate into Alberta's economy and culture.

00:08:12.220 But that was upended by the last 10 years of what was effectively an open borders policy by Ottawa.

00:08:19.220 And Albertans of all ages, ethnicities, and immigration history have had quite enough. 0.92

00:08:25.220 We need an immigration policy that puts Albertans first. 0.60

00:08:29.220 And that is why our government will be taking primary control over our immigration system in the coming months and years ahead.

00:08:46.220 Using our constitutionally protected provincial rights, Alberta will return to a more stable number of primarily economic migrants 1.00

00:08:54.220 so that newcomers come here to work and contribute as they have historically done,

00:08:59.220 while Canadian citizens living in Alberta are given first priority to the jobs and the opportunities our economy creates.

00:09:06.220 Of course, one of her strongest points, I think supported by ordinary people, is to fight for women's places in bathrooms, 1.00

00:09:15.220 in changing rooms, in sports, in prisons, things where transgender extremism is out of control.

00:09:20.220 That got some applause, too.

00:09:22.220 He's taken a hands-on approach to ensuring the new teachers and EAs we are hiring are placed where they are needed most,

00:09:28.220 whether that be in regular classrooms or special classrooms suited for children with complex needs.

00:09:34.220 And because I see the NDP and their union allies are now organizing against parental choice in education,

00:09:42.220 let me be very clear, our government will continue to support and protect all options parents enjoy in the education system.

00:09:49.220 That includes public and Catholic and charter and independent and homeschooling.

00:10:01.220 Because unlike the NDP and their allies, we in the UCP know and believe that parental choice in education is a paramount importance,

00:10:12.220 and that is not going to change so long as the UCP is in government.

00:10:17.220 So there's a lot cooking there, but there's also trouble in paradise.

00:10:21.220 The chief opponent to Daniel Smith and the UCP is the opposition NDP, but more to the point, the public sector unions,

00:10:31.220 which are basically surrogates for the NDP.

00:10:34.220 There's a lot of legal shenanigans.

00:10:36.220 And remember, all of this is with the fact that next year there will most likely be a referendum on Alberta independence.

00:10:46.220 So there's a lot cooking.

00:10:48.220 And I'm out here in Toronto, so I'm not there every day.

00:10:52.220 So I rely on our Alberta eyes and ears, Sheila Gunn-Reed and the Calgary team.

00:10:56.220 But there is someone who I go to who I know is going to have a deep understanding of what's going on,

00:11:02.220 because he's focused not just on the politics and the journalism, but on the underlying law,

00:11:07.220 which is so important when you're dealing with things like referendums and recalls

00:11:12.220 and what can the province do and what does the MOU really mean?

00:11:16.220 You'll know our next guest. He's our guest for the course of today's show.

00:11:20.220 His name is Keith Wilson, King's Council.

00:11:22.220 We really got to know him well during the Trucker Convoy,

00:11:25.220 when he was the lead lawyer for the Freedom Convoy and the Truckers and for Tamara Leach.

00:11:31.220 He's also very interested in the independence movement.

00:11:34.220 Keith Wilson joins us now via Zoom.

00:11:37.220 Keith, great to see you again.

00:11:39.220 Good to see you, Ezra.

00:11:41.220 I rattled off about 10 things there because I'm just trying to make the point that Alberta

00:11:45.220 is cooking. There is a lot going on.

00:11:48.220 And I wouldn't mind having you take us through a few of these things.

00:11:51.220 I know you're focused like a laser on a new court ruling and a new bill in the legislature.

00:11:57.220 I promise we'll get to that. But just really quickly,

00:12:00.220 I'd like your thoughts on that MOU, that memorandum of understanding,

00:12:03.220 or as both Carney and Smith call it, the grand bargain.

00:12:07.220 Do you think there will be a pipeline built to the West Coast?

00:12:12.220 No.

00:12:14.220 Okay, message received.

00:12:17.220 Tell me why you think there will not be one.

00:12:20.220 Well, I mean, under our Constitution, starting in 1867,

00:12:26.220 you know, what's one of the great accomplishments of Canada when you look back at our early history?

00:12:31.220 It's the railway interprovincial works.

00:12:34.220 Well, how did that happen?

00:12:35.220 It happened because under the Constitution, exclusive jurisdiction, authority,

00:12:43.220 exclusive approval making power vests in the federal government for interprovincial works,

00:12:50.220 which include highways, pipelines, and so on, as well as ports and matters of coastal waters, exclusive jurisdiction of the federal government.

00:13:02.220 The Prime Minister has made clear, as has his new Minister of Environment, as has other ministers, that this pipeline will only go ahead if British Columbia consents and First Nations consent.

00:13:19.220 Well, under the Constitution, they do not have those entities,

00:13:24.220 those entities rather, those entities, BC and the First Nations, do not have a veto, and the Prime Minister's given them one.

00:13:30.220 And that's, the word veto does not appear in the MOU, but that doesn't matter because the Prime Minister has to approve the pipeline,

00:13:41.220 and he said he'll only basically do it if BC and the First Nations are on side.

00:13:46.220 So I just think it's, and the timelines are too long.

00:13:50.220 We have an urgent need to grow our economy, to build prosperity, to undo the harmful ways of the federal government.

00:13:58.220 So I just, I don't think, and from what I've been told by oil industry people, there's just not a business case for it.

00:14:04.220 I think the MOU is a very important advancement in some respects, though, in that the government, the Kearney government has committed to not move ahead with its emissions cap,

00:14:15.220 which was really an unconstitutional production cap designed to keep Alberta's oil and gas in the ground,

00:14:21.220 which is the greatest generator of wealth in our country, and the net zero electricity regulation,

00:14:29.220 which is making our grids less stable and preventing us from all provinces from capitalizing on the growth of the new market for AI data centers.

00:14:40.220 But I think the premier, it's an important accomplishment.

00:14:48.220 It is nowhere close to a grand bargain, because it doesn't deal with the other core issues of equalization, out of control immigration. 0.99

00:14:56.220 It doesn't deal with the reckless spending and the deficits.

00:15:00.220 It doesn't deal with the failure to have a criminal law system or criminal justice system to keep us safe and the other things that are driving the independence movement.

00:15:08.220 So it's a step in the right direction.

00:15:10.220 It has some positive features, but it's not, it's not, you know, it's a good thing.

00:15:16.220 I don't dispute that.

00:15:17.220 But I think the error that was made, unfortunately, by the government here was they oversold it.

00:15:22.220 Now, let me do something I don't think I've ever done.

00:15:25.220 I'm going to play devil's advocate for the Liberal Party.

00:15:29.220 Awesome.

00:15:30.220 This is new territory for me, I should tell you.

00:15:32.220 Let me throw a couple of things at you and you deal with them.

00:15:36.220 The first is, Stephen Gilboa, the former environment minister, the author of so many bad ideas, quit.

00:15:45.220 And quit and made a fuss and quit and did the interview circuit.

00:15:49.220 And other liberals sort of chimed in.

00:15:54.220 I saw Talib Nur Mohammed from BC.

00:15:57.220 Former liberals too, Jody Wilson-Raybould, Catherine McKenna, the former environment minister.

00:16:03.220 I don't, at first I thought, oh, that's just, that's just orchestrated to make Westerners think that this was a big deal.

00:16:12.220 I thought that Stephen Gilboa, because, because we knew he was thinking of stepping down anyways.

00:16:16.220 But I've heard that this is actually causing a schism in the Liberal Party, that it is turning the liberals more towards the center than the far left, under which they, you know, they cruised that way for 10 years.

00:16:31.220 What do you say to the fact that maybe Mark Carney is pulling back from the craziness and, and all these ultra left, like Elizabeth May said, oh, I regret voting for this government.

00:16:43.220 You can never take a politician at face value, but maybe this is some real reality here that maybe they are open to an oil pipeline.

00:16:53.220 And again, I'm, this is me pretending to be a liberal.

00:16:56.220 Agreed.

00:16:58.220 Agreed.

00:16:59.220 Um, I was wondering the same thing that this was some kind of showmanship, but I talked to a number of people that persuaded me that that's not the right assessment.

00:17:08.220 I think Gabo and others are livid and the reason they're livid and the reason they had their temper tantrum and stomped out of the room, you know, you know, notionally is because they're eco evangelists and to move away from anything.

00:17:27.220 That's not climate alarmism.

00:17:30.220 That's not net zero, 100% is blasphemy.

00:17:35.220 And so the eco evangelists of Gabo must, must protest. 0.97

00:17:40.220 So, but this is where I come to a disturbing conclusion.

00:17:47.220 I believe Carney is well, and his wife are eco evangelists too.

00:17:52.220 But I think Carney sees himself in a different class where he wants to get to the same goals that, uh, Gabo had.

00:18:02.220 He just sees a more sophisticated, more nefarious way of getting there, which is through carbon taxes and other, other tools, uh, things that aren't as obvious.

00:18:14.220 He said openly when he notion, when he suspended the consumer carbon tax, he said something to the fact that it was too visible that we need to do these things where the, where the voter can't see them.

00:18:24.220 Yeah.

00:18:25.220 He said it was too divisive.

00:18:26.220 You don't know why.

00:18:27.220 Yeah.

00:18:28.220 So that's my answer to that one.

00:18:30.220 Yeah.

00:18:31.220 I remember when he nixed it, he, it's not that he said he was against it inherently.

00:18:35.220 It just was dividing people.

00:18:37.220 So it was the reaction to it.

00:18:38.220 He didn't like he, he's still fine with carbon taxes.

00:18:40.220 Let me ask you about the new energy minister, Tim Hodgson.

00:18:43.220 Um, I think he's a bit of a newbie.

00:18:46.220 He's, I can see him making some messaging mistakes.

00:18:49.220 And, and so let me, again, let me play devil's advocate for the liberals.

00:18:53.220 This is not my safe place, Keith, but when he said veto, or you need the consent of the BC, you need the consent of the first nations.

00:19:04.220 Maybe he was speaking imprecisely because I saw yesterday, he was moving back to the, we need to consult with them.

00:19:12.220 We don't need their consent, which would be a veto.

00:19:15.220 We need to consult, which would be to have, you know, some conversations.

00:19:20.220 So what if we said, well, maybe Tim Hodgson, he's fairly new to politics.

00:19:25.220 Maybe he misspoke a little bit there.

00:19:27.220 The MOU doesn't say consent.

00:19:29.220 And I didn't know much about Tim Hodgson.

00:19:34.220 I don't think anyone in politics did because you know what he came from.

00:19:37.220 He came from Goldman Sachs.

00:19:38.220 I think he was the CEO of Goldman Sachs, Canada, which is where back in the day, Mark Carney came from.

00:19:45.220 These are all bank, you know, Goldman Sachs is known as sort of the Darth Vader of bankers.

00:19:50.220 You know, they got their tentacles everywhere.

00:19:52.220 They're the, the most nefarious.

00:19:54.220 They're the richest.

00:19:55.220 They're the most powerful.

00:19:56.220 So it's no surprise that that's where Carney reached, but you know, this guy is tight with Carney.

00:20:02.220 No one else in caucus has heard of him, but maybe he actually has some power.

00:20:07.220 And I don't see that he's an eco radical.

00:20:12.220 I don't know.

00:20:13.220 I mean, in fact, he sort of comes from an energy background.

00:20:15.220 Again, this is me outside of my safe place trying to make the case for the liberals that maybe this is how liberals go about making pipelines.

00:20:25.220 I can't believe I'm saying these things, but I want to see your answers to them.

00:20:28.220 Well, you know, watch, he's often on camera in question period because of the camera angle.

00:20:35.220 Watch it.

00:20:36.220 You will see.

00:20:37.220 He always looks like the guy who just, you know, was pulled out of off the street, out off of Wellington and said, Hey, come sit here for a minute.

00:20:46.220 He's always doing this like what's going on here.

00:20:50.220 He has this dumbfounded.

00:20:51.220 Look, I don't think he's going to last in politics.

00:20:54.220 He's trying to be a politician.

00:20:56.220 He's a hard core hedge fund type business guy.

00:21:02.220 And, uh, so, um, I just, you know, is he a sign of hope that the eco evangelists are losing their grip?

00:21:14.220 No, I think Carney's using him as a device, as a tool to, um, achieve these eco evangelist goals through a different means through a more sophisticated sleight of hand technique, you know, through all of this gobbledy goop that we hear from Carney.

00:21:33.220 So he, uh, Hodgson does not give me hope.

00:21:37.220 I see him more symptomatic and as evidence of a more sinister way in which Carney's conducting himself.

00:21:44.220 All right.

00:21:45.220 I got one last question about this.

00:21:47.220 And again, I'm just, I mean, I, I think you and I overlap almost completely on issues like this, like the Venn diagram of what you think and what I think it's like a perfect circle.

00:21:59.220 But I do want to keep open the possibility that I've missed something that I'm in my own echo chamber.

00:22:08.220 And, and so I want to test my own beliefs.

00:22:11.220 And I know you do also that, I mean, you're always testing your own beliefs, improving your understanding, the world, checking your hypothesis.

00:22:19.220 When you think back about the great nation building projects of this country, and I think the CPI, the Canadian Pacific Railway is probably the biggest and most important.

00:22:30.220 It, it really did keep the country together.

00:22:32.220 Yes.

00:22:33.220 It, it dealt with whether it's a military.

00:22:35.220 Facilitated the migration, the settling of the prairies.

00:22:38.220 Yeah.

00:22:39.220 Resource development.

00:22:40.220 Protected us from a spread of the United States into Canada.

00:22:43.220 Absolutely.

00:22:44.220 Probably the single most important thing that this country has achieved.

00:22:47.220 That was done by great men, adventurous entrepreneurs and capitalists.

00:22:54.220 Yes.

00:22:55.220 But at the end of the day, it had the political muscle behind it of being a government project that was facilitated, legislated, funded, financed, and any problems were like the CPR blasted through the rock.

00:23:12.220 But the government blasted through 19th century red tape as much as there was.

00:23:18.220 Yeah.

00:23:19.220 And the reason I say that is when the government owns the project, the government gives itself the permits.

00:23:25.220 The government, like the government can make something happen for itself, perhaps in a way it wouldn't do for a private sector project.

00:23:32.220 So let me throw this at you.

00:23:33.220 I hate to say it, but the only oil pipeline built in the last 15 years was the Trans Mountain pipeline, which was done atrociously, poorly, awful by the Trudeau government, which botched the private sector pipeline, bought it, completed it at like five times the price.

00:23:54.220 But they actually did complete that Trans Mountain pipeline, it's actually operating.

00:24:01.220 What if a government or even the federal government were a part of a project that was proposed?

00:24:13.220 I don't know if that could happen.

00:24:16.220 But if that happened, I think that that would de-risk the political risk here.

00:24:25.220 Because I think when you have oil companies say, I'd rather operate in Kazakhstan, I'd rather operate in dictatorships than Alberta.

00:24:32.220 That's what they mean.

00:24:33.220 That's what they mean.

00:24:34.220 It's the political risk.

00:24:35.220 Do you think there's any prospect of having a government partnership, as much as I hate that, in a new proposed northern pipeline?

00:24:45.220 Let me say a few things.

00:24:47.220 First of all, if Carney was truly interested in helping reset and redirect the country from the lowest GDP growth,

00:25:01.220 from, you know, you've seen the different charts that show Canada is just in such terrible shape in terms of our economy.

00:25:08.220 We're poorer than Alabama.

00:25:09.220 And our economic growth.

00:25:10.220 We're poorer than Mississippi.

00:25:11.220 Many of our Canadian provinces are poorer than-

00:25:14.220 Absolutely.

00:25:15.220 And there are problems, Ezra, that you can appreciate and your listeners will appreciate that are actually hard to fix.

00:25:20.220 And then there's problems that are easy to fix.

00:25:23.220 Some of the stuff that Carney can fix is actually very easy.

00:25:27.220 And let me illustrate that.

00:25:29.220 Prior, we have had for a very many decades, we have had a federal statute called the Impact Assessment Act.

00:25:41.220 Okay.

00:25:42.220 But under Trudeau, they brought in Bill C-69, which added all kinds of provisions to that statute.

00:25:54.220 He could simply remove them, right?

00:25:57.220 Because then it will just operate like it did before they screwed it up.

00:26:01.220 Right.

00:26:02.220 Right?

00:26:03.220 It's not like he has to, this has to be complicated.

00:26:05.220 Right.

00:26:06.220 And in fact, the courts have struck down many of the provisions of C-69 as unconstitutional, quite properly.

00:26:12.220 So he has a very simple remedy.

00:26:15.220 He could instruct the justice drafters to go back to the version that existed before, which facilitated growth in projects of all kinds across this country.

00:26:26.220 Yeah.

00:26:27.220 It's like investment, job creation, economic development.

00:26:31.220 It's that easy.

00:26:32.220 Just restore it to the act that was before.

00:26:35.220 It would literally take five minutes.

00:26:38.220 Just bring up the version that existed before B-69.

00:26:42.220 He hasn't done it.

00:26:44.220 He hasn't moved a wheel on that.

00:26:47.220 But what he did do is he created this special office that he controls, where if you get yourself on a special list, five or six projects can go ahead.

00:26:55.220 We need 5,000 projects to go ahead of all sizes to create jobs.

00:27:00.220 We need the people who are fleeing with their investment dollars to come back.

00:27:04.220 And he hasn't done that.

00:27:05.220 He's chosen not to.

00:27:07.220 Yeah.

00:27:08.220 I could give other examples.

00:27:09.220 So I don't think he is any different than Trudeau, other than he's much more sophisticated and maniacal.

00:27:17.220 I think he sees himself as an eco evangelist, but he's going to do it in a more discreet way and cause the masses to see the greatness.

00:27:28.220 And I think he wants to demonstrate to the rest of the world, other countries in Europe that he's going to show them how you can implement green policies and save the planet.

00:27:39.220 Yeah.

00:27:40.220 And unfortunately we're all going to be the victims of that failure.

00:27:43.220 But you use the example of the TMX pipeline when it was originally proposed as a private sector project.

00:27:51.220 And I was involved in representing some of the landowners along the route and involved in some of the hearing processes.

00:27:56.220 So I'm very familiar with it right down to a technical level.

00:27:59.220 And I still remember the day when it got, they announced, the company announced they were pulling out.

00:28:04.220 They were at about $7 billion for their budget and estimate at that time.

00:28:08.220 And then the government had to step in and save face and took it over.

00:28:12.220 Well, what did they end up spending?

00:28:14.220 Was it $30 billion?

00:28:15.220 Yeah, crazy.

00:28:16.220 So the problem is now, well, it's not full.

00:28:20.220 And Hodgson and others say, well, it's not full.

00:28:22.220 The reason it's not full, imagine what the toll would be, the charge for you and I to run a barrel of oil through that pipeline,

00:28:32.220 if it costs $7 billion to build versus how much the company running the pipeline is going to charge us to run a barrel of oil through it when it costs $30 billion.

00:28:42.220 The tolls are so high, it's like they're off the scale.

00:28:47.220 So the estimates are that if the government were to build the new Northern Gateway pipeline,

00:28:52.220 a new pipeline from Alberta to the coast, that it would cost $50 billion.

00:28:57.220 Well, no oil company is going to be able to afford to put the dill bit in it,

00:29:03.220 especially when they got to transport the dill you went back after it's stripped out in the Asian market.

00:29:09.220 So the economics aren't there.

00:29:11.220 Yeah, they could build it, but they're going to build a pipeline that no one oil company can afford to put oil through, 0.85

00:29:18.220 especially when on top of that, they're going to have to spend $5 or $10 a barrel on carbon taxes.

00:29:23.220 Yeah, I find this very depressing.

00:29:25.220 You know, I did my show yesterday on what I think is a very real prospect that Donald Trump will topple Venezuela's dictator, Nicolas Maduro.

00:29:33.220 I mean, you can see him wobbling back and forth right now.

00:29:37.220 The country's in a crisis.

00:29:39.220 They used to produce 3 million barrels of oil a day.

00:29:42.220 They're down to 1 million barrels.

00:29:44.220 They are so poor, the average Venezuelan has lost 24 pounds from just lack of food.

00:29:54.220 It's actually a human crisis.

00:29:56.220 I think Trump's going to topple them.

00:29:58.220 And if that happens, you know it's going to happen.

00:30:01.220 So Venezuela was supplying all this oil and then here was Alberta.

00:30:05.220 And then Venezuela went down.

00:30:06.220 It went like this.

00:30:07.220 Right?

00:30:08.220 Yeah.

00:30:09.220 Well, uh, Trump, Venezuela, you know, Chevron will go in there the day after.

00:30:15.220 Yeah.

00:30:16.220 Trump topples.

00:30:17.220 Get their old refinery back.

00:30:18.220 They, they were expropriated along with that.

00:30:20.220 Put those refineries up.

00:30:21.220 They'll do their re they'll, they'll do, they'll do shutdowns and get everything working.

00:30:24.220 They'll get the pipelines fixed up.

00:30:25.220 They'll get the wells pumping again.

00:30:27.220 And then those tankers will be flowing through the Gulf of America, uh, to Houston and they'll

00:30:32.220 be displacing.

00:30:33.220 So then the American buyers will say, yeah, to Alberta, like, Oh, do you want some of our,

00:30:38.220 our, uh, our, our oil from Fort McMurray?

00:30:40.220 Uh, yeah, we're actually good right now.

00:30:42.220 We've got a whole bunch.

00:30:43.220 Uh, and then it'll be like, well, how about $30 a barrel?

00:30:46.220 Would you buy it from us then?

00:30:47.220 Yeah.

00:30:48.220 Okay.

00:30:49.220 So we're, I I'm very concerned about that prospect.

00:30:52.220 It shows why we shouldn't have been messing around.

00:30:55.220 We should have, uh, uh, right of way developed access to other markets.

00:31:00.220 You know, the rest of Canada, in my view, with all due respect lives in this fantasy world

00:31:06.220 that the wealth will always be there.

00:31:08.220 And we can just, you know, send hundreds of millions of dollars to foreign conflicts

00:31:14.220 and hundreds of millions of dollars to climate agencies and programs in Africa.

00:31:21.220 I'm sorry.

00:31:22.220 We just don't have that wealth.

00:31:23.220 Yeah.

00:31:24.220 And, uh, um, uh, we need to change course.

00:31:27.220 Carney has the ability to fix these laws.

00:31:30.220 They're, they're not complex problems to solve.

00:31:33.220 Many problems he faces are complex and difficult, but some of them are not.

00:31:38.220 It's just a simple matter of repealing the bad laws.

00:31:42.220 He, if he repealed the bad laws, he wouldn't even need his bill.

00:31:46.220 He'll see five, you know, major projects office, the major projects office.

00:31:51.220 It's very existence is a glaring admission of failure that you have to get the king.

00:31:57.220 Yeah.

00:31:58.220 King Carney's personal blessing to build anything.

00:32:02.220 It doesn't matter whether an entrepreneur, an investor wants to start a business, a mine

00:32:09.220 that's going to employ a thousand people, or someone's going to do a project.

00:32:12.220 That's going to employ a hundred people or 500 people or 10 people.

00:32:16.220 Yeah.

00:32:17.220 We need every one of those people to stay in Canada with their investment dollars and create

00:32:21.220 jobs for our friends, our neighbors, and our kids.

00:32:23.220 And Carney's blown it.

00:32:25.220 Trudeau blew it.

00:32:26.220 And, uh, uh, the MOU doesn't solve it.

00:32:29.220 Yeah.

00:32:30.220 I mean, it's an added, it reminds me of Goss plan, which was the name of the Soviet planning office,

00:32:39.220 the economic planning office.

00:32:41.220 It, it added no value to anything.

00:32:44.220 It had no technical knowledge.

00:32:46.220 It was simply politicians trying to choose winners and losers, trying to orchestrate the

00:32:51.220 economy.

00:32:52.220 I've talked before about, uh, I think it was Frederick Bastiat and his wonderful essay, which

00:32:57.220 is, oh my God, how, how do we know where all the bread should go every day in Paris?

00:33:01.220 Who's in charge?

00:33:02.220 There's no minister of bread.

00:33:04.220 How is it that we're not all starving?

00:33:07.220 Who knows how to get the right amount of bread to every bakery, to every restaurant?

00:33:11.220 Oh my God, no one's in charge.

00:33:13.220 The answer is spontaneous order.

00:33:16.220 People can figure it out on their own.

00:33:18.220 In fact, if you had a minister of bread, that's when you would have shortages, starvation,

00:33:25.220 famine.

00:33:26.220 There's no one person, no one king or commissar is smart enough to know where the million loaves

00:33:34.220 of bread go every day.

00:33:36.220 And the idea that Mark, I'm sure he's a smart man and I'm sure he has a good education,

00:33:42.220 but there is no one person who can be the king of the economy and, and run things better

00:33:49.220 than the experts in the industry.

00:33:51.220 And I don't know, I just find it very Soviet that we have to meet, meet the commissar's 0.79

00:33:57.220 approval.

00:33:58.220 And we don't even know what the rules are in there.

00:33:59.220 It's just, if he likes you, it's, it's more like a Roman emperor than even a communist

00:34:05.220 planner.

00:34:06.220 There's an arrogance with this government.

00:34:09.220 And there was an arrogance with the previous government, a liberal government that, that

00:34:14.220 they know better what I need for me and my family than I do.

00:34:18.220 And they're better at providing it.

00:34:20.220 And history has shown that that doesn't result in my family being better off.

00:34:27.220 It's just remarkable.

00:34:29.220 There's such narcissism in that line of thinking.

00:34:33.220 Uh, and that's what we see on display out of Ottawa at the same, uh, continually, but

00:34:37.220 at the same time we see their glaring incompetence.

00:34:40.220 They couldn't even plant trees.

00:34:42.220 Yeah.

00:34:43.220 Yeah.

00:34:44.220 Canada.

00:34:45.220 One useful thing.

00:34:46.220 No, you're not.

00:34:47.220 Carney appeared, uh, this week before the assembly of first nations.

00:34:53.220 And I watched, I tortured myself.

00:34:56.220 I punished myself by watching the whole thing.

00:34:58.220 And he said, and just, you know, think of the tragedy on the reserves throughout Canada.

00:35:05.220 If you've traveled through any yourself and seen the despicable, terrible housing conditions.

00:35:10.220 And Carney announced that the federal government's going to partner with first nations to build houses for Canadians.

00:35:19.220 I'm like, could you start with the reserves please?

00:35:21.220 You know?

00:35:22.220 So these guys are completely delusional.

00:35:24.220 Uh, they're drunk on power.

00:35:26.220 Uh, they're drunk on their own sense of brilliance and, uh, we're suffering for it.

00:35:33.220 Yeah.

00:35:34.220 Well, the timing of the MOU is interesting.

00:35:36.220 Like I say, it was just a day before the, uh, UCP conference in Alberta started.

00:35:42.220 And I think the most dramatic in the moment in the conference was when an activist, a grassroots activist, and we've had him on the show before Jeffrey Rath is his name, um, got to the microphone and expressed his views.

00:35:57.220 Uh, he was not pleased with the MOE.

00:35:59.220 He was not pleased with the Ottawa.

00:36:00.220 And he very much believed in independence.

00:36:02.220 And, um, it showed that I, I, I believe my sense of the conference was that members of the party very much like Danielle Smith and are happy with her.

00:36:13.220 Remember just a year ago, she got more than 90% of the vote in a, in a ratification, but they do not like the MOU.

00:36:19.220 And they're very much in the back of their mind thinking that independence may still be an option here.

00:36:24.220 Let me show you a couple of moments from the conference showing the booing of the premier's MOU and the cheers for Jeffrey Rath.

00:36:31.220 Jeffrey Rath.

00:36:32.220 Take a look.

00:36:33.220 Hello.

00:36:34.220 My name is Jeffrey Rath.

00:36:35.220 I'm from football.

00:36:36.220 Thank you.

00:36:37.220 Thank you.

00:36:38.220 Thank you.

00:36:39.220 Thank you for everybody in this room.

00:36:44.220 After that so-called MOU was signed yesterday, the ink wasn't dry on the paper, and Mark Cartney went out and gleefully announced a 600% increase to the industrial carbon tax in Alberta.

00:37:00.220 How many of all of us think for a free and independent Alberta?

00:37:07.220 Thank you.

00:37:08.220 Thank you.

00:37:30.220 Thank you.

00:38:00.220 I think that a lot of Albertans are hopeful that this might work, but I don't think they would bet on it.

00:38:20.720 I don't think, I mean, they would like it to work, but all the things you've described are reasons it won't happen.

00:38:27.260 And I keep thinking if you, like you mentioned ConocoPhillips or Chevron, Exxon, these were all companies who were kicked out of Venezuela.

00:38:33.960 If they had $10 billion to kick around, which is the likelier path to a quick, you know, rate of return, throwing in a Mark Carney's Goss plan or going to Venezuela?

00:38:47.600 So I'm worried that a proponent won't come forward if that happens.

00:38:52.660 And my very first question to you was, will a pipeline be built?

00:38:56.260 And you just said no.

00:38:57.120 Well, at what point in time does Alberta declare defeat?

00:39:03.940 Do people who propose a pipe, want a pipeline say this didn't work?

00:39:09.560 It was just a PR exercise.

00:39:12.260 In fact, the only thing we have now is a higher carbon tax.

00:39:14.980 When do people stop believing?

00:39:16.640 Is there a drop dead date in this thing?

00:39:18.240 I think maybe it is in July or something.

00:39:20.600 Is that right?

00:39:22.540 Yeah.

00:39:23.060 Well, let me just comment on why I thought there was booze.

00:39:25.560 Because, you know, you and I were both in the room.

00:39:29.240 Is, I don't think that it's people were disappointed in the MOU per se.

00:39:38.080 I mean, it's obviously I've criticized elements of it.

00:39:41.180 What I think they were disappointed in, it was almost presented to the UCP members, particularly those who are strong supporters of independence, sort of like, here, see, I fixed Canada.

00:40:00.380 Alberta doesn't have to separate now. 0.76

00:40:02.160 Right.

00:40:02.500 Right.

00:40:03.260 And, of course, it doesn't.

00:40:06.240 And that's where I think the booze came from.

00:40:08.220 Right, right, right.

00:40:09.020 That that's type of a sentiment, that there's so much more that needs to be done.

00:40:14.080 Right.

00:40:14.640 This MOU does not resolve the fact that the Trudeau liberals, now with the Carney liberals, have created more debt than all of the previous governments of Canada combined.

00:40:28.940 That they have condemned my children, my grandchildren, and my great-grandchildren to this burden of debt, that they have been continually increasing the cost of living.

00:40:40.040 They're making life unaffordable.

00:40:41.820 They're depriving our children of a prosperous future.

00:40:45.120 They're not keeping us safe with their crazy two-tier justice system. 1.00

00:40:50.180 You know, Tamara Leach is under house arrest for mischief, and then they're letting rapists out and not giving them a sentence because they're worried they'll get deported and not be able to stay in Canada. 0.62

00:41:01.460 I could go on.

00:41:02.880 The gun grab, what a misplaced priority.

00:41:06.720 The immigration out of control. 1.00

00:41:09.320 The, uh, all of these different things.

00:41:11.820 The MOU does not address that.

00:41:14.080 Something that addresses those things would be a grand bargain.

00:41:17.080 Right, right.

00:41:17.820 Good point.

00:41:18.780 I mean, even, I think, back to the two issues that I thought were interesting in her speech were transgenderism and immigration.

00:41:27.100 Those are not, obviously, even touched by the MOU.

00:41:29.640 There are many things on a hundred different issues, firearms being one of them.

00:41:34.380 Well, let me talk about independence with you because I know that's on your mind.

00:41:37.560 Um, there's, there's been battles going on.

00:41:42.860 There have been other people in Alberta who said, well, we're going to get a referendum too, and it'll be a, we love Canada referendum.

00:41:49.000 There's dueling referendums, and then there's recall initiatives where the NDP are going to try and get MLAs recalled, which is a great thing.

00:41:59.780 I wish every politician lived in some fear that they could be recalled before the end of their term.

00:42:06.540 I don't, I don't want us to be in perpetual elections, but the threat should be real.

00:42:11.420 Give me an update.

00:42:12.480 What's going on?

00:42:13.220 Because I know there was a new bill in the legislature in a court case today.

00:42:17.760 And I know these are all slightly different things, but tell me the state of direct democracy in Alberta.

00:42:23.020 Sure.

00:42:23.420 So, um, in Alberta, we have what's called the citizens initiative act and there was a, a clause in it.

00:42:31.500 It's, it's a paragraph, uh, two D I believe, um, uh, in any event or two sub four, um, it, it, it's a clause in the statute that evolved over time.

00:42:45.180 It had a big whole bunch of words in it and it was brought in for a specific purpose many, many years ago.

00:42:51.220 And then in some recent versions of legislation, they amended it out and they just left the last bit in.

00:42:57.060 And the last bit basically says that you can't have a citizens initiative petition, a petition to compel the government to hold a referendum on independence.

00:43:08.300 For example, if the nature of your petition question is going to contravene the chart of rights and freedoms in certain parts of the constitution, and it gives authority to the chief electoral officer to submit to the court, uh, a reference case to decide whether or not a proposed question petition question for referendum will, uh, offend that provision.

00:43:38.300 So, first of all, that clause should have never been there to begin with.

00:43:43.660 It's, it's really strange that it is.

00:43:46.660 Um, but secondly, the Alberta prosperity project proposed a charter question or a referendum question about Alberta independence, filed it with the chief electoral office.

00:44:00.820 And then he decided to send it to the court for a review.

00:44:03.900 Justice Feesby was tasked with hearing submissions on it.

00:44:07.480 That process has been ongoing and on its face, this is all nonsensical because if the Supreme Court of Canada said in the Quebec case, the 1998 reference case, that if a province votes to succeed, to secede, to become independent in a clear, on a clear question and a clear majority say, yes, we want to become independent.

00:44:27.060 Then that triggers a mandatory obligation for all parties to enter into good faith negotiations as to the details in the terms upon which the divorce will occur.

00:44:37.600 Okay.

00:44:38.060 So, and that's First Nations, all the other provinces in the federal government.

00:44:41.400 So, a successful referendum doesn't mean you're out, doesn't mean, doesn't define the rights that First Nations will have in Alberta, doesn't define the rights and privileges of Albertans.

00:44:56.880 All that has to be negotiated in the future and agreed to.

00:44:59.700 So, it just really makes no sense to even have this provision in there in any event.

00:45:04.380 All it does is creates an opportunity for judicial intervention and the judiciary to go out of its lane and potentially override the legislature.

00:45:13.960 So, as this case has been evolving before the courts, before Justice Feesby, on whether or not the question posed by the Alberta Prosperity Project for an independence referendum in Alberta contravenes the Constitution and the Charter.

00:45:31.700 However, the Alberta government stepped in yesterday and said, this was never the legislative intent.

00:45:40.440 The legislative intent of our legislation, the Citizens Initiative Act, was that citizens would come together and they would decide if there was an important question.

00:45:50.360 And if enough citizens sign, 177,000, that then triggers an obligation for the provincial government to hold a referendum.

00:45:58.640 This is as democratic as you can get.

00:46:00.960 This is democracy on steroids, right?

00:46:05.160 So, now the legislature goes, what?

00:46:09.820 Now a court's controlling this?

00:46:11.840 That was never the intent.

00:46:12.980 The intent was for the people to control it.

00:46:14.940 So, yesterday afternoon, the Alberta government, so on Thursday afternoon, December 4th, the Smith government introduced Bill 14.

00:46:25.660 And Bill 14 clarifies the legislative intention, which is absolutely open for a legislature to do.

00:46:34.640 In fact, they have an obligation to do that under the principles of parliamentary supremacy.

00:46:39.540 And they have clarified through Bill 14, they've removed that section, so the judges are not supposed to step in.

00:46:48.580 This is a democratic process.

00:46:49.840 And they have made it retroactive, which they're legally allowed to do.

00:46:56.320 It happens quite frequently where legislation is retroactive, particularly if it's correcting a problem.

00:47:00.560 And said, this case must now come to an end.

00:47:03.920 It should have never happened.

00:47:05.660 It's not consistent with the legislative intention.

00:47:08.920 So, I think that's very good.

00:47:11.880 And someone, you know, the lefties quickly, oh, this is authoritarian, this is fashion.

00:47:15.820 No, it's not.

00:47:16.840 It's the opposite of that.

00:47:18.260 In our Westminster model of government, the parliament is supreme in lawmaking.

00:47:24.960 They make the policies.

00:47:26.340 They make the laws.

00:47:27.320 If we don't like what they do, we unelect them.

00:47:29.700 We don't elect them again, right?

00:47:31.520 And here we have recall.

00:47:33.660 So, when the legislature discovers that its legislative intention is not being achieved, it's incumbent upon them,

00:47:41.280 and they have the full legal authority and obligation to amend their legislation to clarify their legislative intention.

00:47:48.660 That's what the government's done through Bill 14.

00:47:51.980 However, today, mere hours ago, Justice Feesby, despite the legislature bringing in a law that says this case is to end now,

00:48:02.960 because it should have never begun in the first place,

00:48:05.120 which is perfectly proper and permissible under our system in the Constitution,

00:48:10.420 Justice Feesby thumbed his nose at the rule of law and issued a decision anyway.

00:48:19.620 Remarkable.

00:48:20.840 Absolutely remarkable.

00:48:22.560 Well, I'm worried about—go ahead, sorry.

00:48:25.340 No, that's fine.

00:48:26.120 So, what—and what he ruled was that the Alberta Prosperity Project can't have a petition

00:48:38.300 and can't trigger a referendum on independence.

00:48:42.860 Yeah.

00:48:44.180 Now, what's interesting is, you know, that sounds pretty dramatic on its face,

00:48:49.860 but actually, his decision is actually, with all due respect to the judge, a nothing burger.

00:48:56.840 And the reason it's a nothing burger is he only decided on the effect of that one section, two sub four,

00:49:06.760 about whether or not the petition question could potentially contravene the Charter.

00:49:12.960 However, his decision clearly in no way restricts or limits the authority as set by the Supreme Court of Canada

00:49:25.220 in the 1998 reference case or the federal government through the Clarity Act

00:49:30.120 for the Alberta government to call a referendum.

00:49:32.800 So, his decision is exceptionally narrow and only applies to the functioning of that one oddball section

00:49:44.620 that the legislature and the premier have said from the get-go,

00:49:49.060 that was never the intention of the law.

00:49:52.160 This is bad drafting.

00:49:53.720 If it's being interpreted that way, we're going to fix it.

00:49:56.380 So, yesterday, they fixed it.

00:49:58.020 So, Justice Feesby should have just closed his file and said,

00:50:02.760 in view of the statute, the direction from the legislature, they are supreme.

00:50:07.500 The judge is to interpret the law.

00:50:10.060 The legislature is to make the law.

00:50:12.360 And that obviously upset Justice Feesby.

00:50:15.380 So, he decided today that he was going to try and make some law.

00:50:19.260 It's of no force in effect.

00:50:21.200 It's a very narrow scope because it only deals with that subsection.

00:50:25.240 The new reality in Alberta with the passage of Bill 14 will be that the Alberta Prosperity Project will have 30 days

00:50:35.000 to resubmit their petition question.

00:50:39.200 The chief electoral officer will have 30 days to review and approve it.

00:50:44.800 And then the Alberta Prosperity Project will have 120 days to mobilize their 20,000 volunteers

00:50:54.020 to get the 200,000 Albertans who have already pledged to sign to secure the 177,000 signatures.

00:51:03.440 That will then obligate the Alberta government to hold a referendum on independence in 2026.

00:51:12.060 And I expect that that referendum would occur in the fall, probably October of 2026.

00:51:17.200 That's the most logical timing, given all the steps that have to occur.

00:51:20.580 And then Albertans will get to decide whether or not they feel that they will have a better future for themselves and their children

00:51:29.260 by being independent or whether things will be better converting to the eco-evangelism and the despair that that will bring.

00:51:42.180 I think I understand your description of the legal events.

00:51:47.620 And what I'm left with is a premonition that this is the first of many attempts by judges.

00:51:55.240 It reminds me a little bit of what Donald Trump is going through, whether it's tariffs or appointments or foreign policy.

00:52:03.080 Like, there's almost nothing that Trump does where a judge, often a Democrat activist appointee, at least temporarily derails it.

00:52:14.660 And I'm not that familiar with the U.S. system, but it seems like any judge from any state can paralyze a national project.

00:52:21.920 It's like whack-a-mole.

00:52:23.200 And I fear that what you've just described, which I think I understand, but what I do understand for sure, is that it's a legal – it's a judge throwing a spanner in the works.

00:52:33.780 And I fear that's the first of a dozen before – I mean, why wouldn't they?

00:52:38.800 Why – I mean, it's – they would do anything they could to stop this from happening.

00:52:43.740 But it's very interesting to get the update.

00:52:46.860 Listen, Keith, stay in touch with us on this and so many other things.

00:52:50.340 And we haven't even talked about Tamara Leach today, really.

00:52:53.820 And, of course, she is appealing her conviction.

00:52:58.100 So that battle continues, and you're at the heart of that.

00:53:00.960 It's great to catch up with you.

00:53:02.340 We love Alberta.

00:53:03.960 And, you know, we talked a lot about legal trickery today and technicalities.

00:53:08.240 That's how it is in modern political fights.

00:53:11.840 Great to catch up with you, my friend.

00:53:14.060 Good to see you.

00:53:14.660 Thanks for having me on.

00:53:15.620 All right.

00:53:15.920 There he is, Keith Wilson, KC, the lawyer for the Freedom Convoy and someone who is deeply following the independence movement.

00:53:23.920 That's our show for today.

00:53:25.660 Until Monday, on behalf of all of us here at Rebel World Highquarters, to you at home, good night.

00:53:30.780 And keep fighting for freedom.

00:53:31.940 We'll be right back.

Rebel News Podcast - December 06, 2025

EZRA LEVANT ｜ Could judges jeopardize independence？ Keith Wilson on Alberta's next steps

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