Keith Wilson is the lawyer for the Freedom Convoy of Truckers, but he s also deeply involved in the Alberta independence movement. We ll talk to him about the latest, including a dramatic court case and new legislation touching on an independence referendum.
00:04:20.220The first deadline in the MOU, if I'm reading it right, is April, where the duty is on Alberta to jack up carbon taxes.
00:04:31.220And the last date in the MOU, if I'm reading it right, correct me if I'm not, is 2040.
00:04:37.220That's when this pipeline, that's sort of the end date. It can't be any later than that.
00:04:42.220In terms of building trust with the anti-oil liberals, they're asking Alberta to raise carbon taxes now
00:04:50.220for a promise of an oil pipeline years or even more than a decade in the future. Does that really build trust?
00:04:58.220Well, you have to start somewhere. And one thing I would say is that we did have the Supreme Court of Canada rule
00:05:06.220rule on the federal government's ability to set a price on emissions. So the Supreme Court has ruled on that.
00:05:13.220It's part of the reason why we negotiated a stringency agreement that would have seen the carbon tax price go up to $170 a barrel by 2030.
00:05:23.220We've demonstrated, and I think the Prime Minister agrees, that's too high too fast. So that's why we understand that there was always going to be a negotiation around that.
00:05:33.220We froze the carbon tax at $95 pending consultation with the industry and greater work with the Prime Minister.
00:05:39.220But remember, Alberta was the first to have an industrial carbon price. We implemented that in 2007.
00:05:45.220It's generated revenues that allowed us to invest billions of dollars in new technologies, including carbon capture.
00:05:51.220So there is a commitment on the part of the industry to have a carbon price, and we did do some consultation on that.
00:05:57.220We're just glad that we have the means to manage it our way in Alberta under our tier program, and we'll see as of April 1st.
00:06:06.220And no, that wasn't a joke. April 1st is going to be the date that we have an agreement on that front.
00:06:13.220When it comes to the building of a bitumen pipeline to Asian markets to the BC coast, if you read the MOU, those two things have to happen in tandem.
00:06:23.220That we have to see the Pathways project proceeding at the same time as an agreement to build that.
00:06:28.220One is dependent on the other. I don't know that the Prime Minister would have agreed to a new bitumen pipeline without Pathways,
00:06:34.220and we wouldn't have agreed to Pathways without a new bitumen pipeline. So they are going to be staged.
00:06:39.220They are going to go on together. We've already had a meeting with Pathways about how we're going to do that.
00:06:44.220That will require a trilateral negotiation as well. But I'm very hopeful.
00:06:49.220Since we have used carbon capture technology before for enhanced oil recovery, that's another part of this announcement,
00:06:55.220is that CO2 will be able to be used for enhanced oil recovery, which should allow us to generate more revenue.
00:07:05.220So I would say that you don't always get 100% of what you want, but we addressed seven out of the nine bad laws that I put on the table to, I think, what will be the satisfaction of Albertans.
00:07:16.220And I think that this will allow us to see some substantial investments.
00:07:21.220Well, a couple days later, the Alberta government had the convention of its party, the UCP, the United Conservative Party.
00:07:30.220You might recall that for a while there, the Wild Rose Party broke off from the PCs and the New Democrats shockingly came up the middle.
00:07:39.220It was a huge conference, about 4,000 people.
00:12:35.220It happened because under the Constitution, exclusive jurisdiction, authority,
00:12:43.220exclusive approval making power vests in the federal government for interprovincial works,
00:12:50.220which include highways, pipelines, and so on, as well as ports and matters of coastal waters, exclusive jurisdiction of the federal government.
00:13:02.220The Prime Minister has made clear, as has his new Minister of Environment, as has other ministers, that this pipeline will only go ahead if British Columbia consents and First Nations consent.
00:13:19.220Well, under the Constitution, they do not have those entities,
00:13:24.220those entities rather, those entities, BC and the First Nations, do not have a veto, and the Prime Minister's given them one.
00:13:30.220And that's, the word veto does not appear in the MOU, but that doesn't matter because the Prime Minister has to approve the pipeline,
00:13:41.220and he said he'll only basically do it if BC and the First Nations are on side.
00:13:46.220So I just think it's, and the timelines are too long.
00:13:50.220We have an urgent need to grow our economy, to build prosperity, to undo the harmful ways of the federal government.
00:13:58.220So I just, I don't think, and from what I've been told by oil industry people, there's just not a business case for it.
00:14:04.220I think the MOU is a very important advancement in some respects, though, in that the government, the Kearney government has committed to not move ahead with its emissions cap,
00:14:15.220which was really an unconstitutional production cap designed to keep Alberta's oil and gas in the ground,
00:14:21.220which is the greatest generator of wealth in our country, and the net zero electricity regulation,
00:14:29.220which is making our grids less stable and preventing us from all provinces from capitalizing on the growth of the new market for AI data centers.
00:14:40.220But I think the premier, it's an important accomplishment.
00:14:48.220It is nowhere close to a grand bargain, because it doesn't deal with the other core issues of equalization, out of control immigration.
00:14:56.220It doesn't deal with the reckless spending and the deficits.
00:15:00.220It doesn't deal with the failure to have a criminal law system or criminal justice system to keep us safe and the other things that are driving the independence movement.
00:15:08.220So it's a step in the right direction.
00:15:10.220It has some positive features, but it's not, it's not, you know, it's a good thing.
00:15:57.220Former liberals too, Jody Wilson-Raybould, Catherine McKenna, the former environment minister.
00:16:03.220I don't, at first I thought, oh, that's just, that's just orchestrated to make Westerners think that this was a big deal.
00:16:12.220I thought that Stephen Gilboa, because, because we knew he was thinking of stepping down anyways.
00:16:16.220But I've heard that this is actually causing a schism in the Liberal Party, that it is turning the liberals more towards the center than the far left, under which they, you know, they cruised that way for 10 years.
00:16:31.220What do you say to the fact that maybe Mark Carney is pulling back from the craziness and, and all these ultra left, like Elizabeth May said, oh, I regret voting for this government.
00:16:43.220You can never take a politician at face value, but maybe this is some real reality here that maybe they are open to an oil pipeline.
00:16:53.220And again, I'm, this is me pretending to be a liberal.
00:16:59.220Um, I was wondering the same thing that this was some kind of showmanship, but I talked to a number of people that persuaded me that that's not the right assessment.
00:17:08.220I think Gabo and others are livid and the reason they're livid and the reason they had their temper tantrum and stomped out of the room, you know, you know, notionally is because they're eco evangelists and to move away from anything.
00:17:30.220That's not net zero, 100% is blasphemy.
00:17:35.220And so the eco evangelists of Gabo must, must protest.
00:17:40.220So, but this is where I come to a disturbing conclusion.
00:17:47.220I believe Carney is well, and his wife are eco evangelists too.
00:17:52.220But I think Carney sees himself in a different class where he wants to get to the same goals that, uh, Gabo had.
00:18:02.220He just sees a more sophisticated, more nefarious way of getting there, which is through carbon taxes and other, other tools, uh, things that aren't as obvious.
00:18:14.220He said openly when he notion, when he suspended the consumer carbon tax, he said something to the fact that it was too visible that we need to do these things where the, where the voter can't see them.
00:20:13.220I mean, in fact, he sort of comes from an energy background.
00:20:15.220Again, this is me outside of my safe place trying to make the case for the liberals that maybe this is how liberals go about making pipelines.
00:20:25.220I can't believe I'm saying these things, but I want to see your answers to them.
00:20:28.220Well, you know, watch, he's often on camera in question period because of the camera angle.
00:20:37.220He always looks like the guy who just, you know, was pulled out of off the street, out off of Wellington and said, Hey, come sit here for a minute.
00:20:46.220He's always doing this like what's going on here.
00:20:56.220He's a hard core hedge fund type business guy.
00:21:02.220And, uh, so, um, I just, you know, is he a sign of hope that the eco evangelists are losing their grip?
00:21:14.220No, I think Carney's using him as a device, as a tool to, um, achieve these eco evangelist goals through a different means through a more sophisticated sleight of hand technique, you know, through all of this gobbledy goop that we hear from Carney.
00:21:33.220So he, uh, Hodgson does not give me hope.
00:21:37.220I see him more symptomatic and as evidence of a more sinister way in which Carney's conducting himself.
00:21:47.220And again, I'm just, I mean, I, I think you and I overlap almost completely on issues like this, like the Venn diagram of what you think and what I think it's like a perfect circle.
00:21:59.220But I do want to keep open the possibility that I've missed something that I'm in my own echo chamber.
00:22:08.220And, and so I want to test my own beliefs.
00:22:11.220And I know you do also that, I mean, you're always testing your own beliefs, improving your understanding, the world, checking your hypothesis.
00:22:19.220When you think back about the great nation building projects of this country, and I think the CPI, the Canadian Pacific Railway is probably the biggest and most important.
00:22:30.220It, it really did keep the country together.
00:22:55.220But at the end of the day, it had the political muscle behind it of being a government project that was facilitated, legislated, funded, financed, and any problems were like the CPR blasted through the rock.
00:23:12.220But the government blasted through 19th century red tape as much as there was.
00:23:33.220I hate to say it, but the only oil pipeline built in the last 15 years was the Trans Mountain pipeline, which was done atrociously, poorly, awful by the Trudeau government, which botched the private sector pipeline, bought it, completed it at like five times the price.
00:23:54.220But they actually did complete that Trans Mountain pipeline, it's actually operating.
00:24:01.220What if a government or even the federal government were a part of a project that was proposed?
00:26:15.220He could instruct the justice drafters to go back to the version that existed before, which facilitated growth in projects of all kinds across this country.
00:26:47.220But what he did do is he created this special office that he controls, where if you get yourself on a special list, five or six projects can go ahead.
00:26:55.220We need 5,000 projects to go ahead of all sizes to create jobs.
00:27:00.220We need the people who are fleeing with their investment dollars to come back.
00:27:09.220So I don't think he is any different than Trudeau, other than he's much more sophisticated and maniacal.
00:27:17.220I think he sees himself as an eco evangelist, but he's going to do it in a more discreet way and cause the masses to see the greatness.
00:27:28.220And I think he wants to demonstrate to the rest of the world, other countries in Europe that he's going to show them how you can implement green policies and save the planet.
00:28:16.220So the problem is now, well, it's not full.
00:28:20.220And Hodgson and others say, well, it's not full.
00:28:22.220The reason it's not full, imagine what the toll would be, the charge for you and I to run a barrel of oil through that pipeline,
00:28:32.220if it costs $7 billion to build versus how much the company running the pipeline is going to charge us to run a barrel of oil through it when it costs $30 billion.
00:28:42.220The tolls are so high, it's like they're off the scale.
00:28:47.220So the estimates are that if the government were to build the new Northern Gateway pipeline,
00:28:52.220a new pipeline from Alberta to the coast, that it would cost $50 billion.
00:28:57.220Well, no oil company is going to be able to afford to put the dill bit in it,
00:29:03.220especially when they got to transport the dill you went back after it's stripped out in the Asian market.
00:29:25.220You know, I did my show yesterday on what I think is a very real prospect that Donald Trump will topple Venezuela's dictator, Nicolas Maduro.
00:29:33.220I mean, you can see him wobbling back and forth right now.
00:35:34.220Well, the timing of the MOU is interesting.
00:35:36.220Like I say, it was just a day before the, uh, UCP conference in Alberta started.
00:35:42.220And I think the most dramatic in the moment in the conference was when an activist, a grassroots activist, and we've had him on the show before Jeffrey Rath is his name, um, got to the microphone and expressed his views.
00:36:00.220And he very much believed in independence.
00:36:02.220And, um, it showed that I, I, I believe my sense of the conference was that members of the party very much like Danielle Smith and are happy with her.
00:36:13.220Remember just a year ago, she got more than 90% of the vote in a, in a ratification, but they do not like the MOU.
00:36:19.220And they're very much in the back of their mind thinking that independence may still be an option here.
00:36:24.220Let me show you a couple of moments from the conference showing the booing of the premier's MOU and the cheers for Jeffrey Rath.
00:36:44.220After that so-called MOU was signed yesterday, the ink wasn't dry on the paper, and Mark Cartney went out and gleefully announced a 600% increase to the industrial carbon tax in Alberta.
00:37:00.220How many of all of us think for a free and independent Alberta?
00:38:00.220I think that a lot of Albertans are hopeful that this might work, but I don't think they would bet on it.
00:38:20.720I don't think, I mean, they would like it to work, but all the things you've described are reasons it won't happen.
00:38:27.260And I keep thinking if you, like you mentioned ConocoPhillips or Chevron, Exxon, these were all companies who were kicked out of Venezuela.
00:38:33.960If they had $10 billion to kick around, which is the likelier path to a quick, you know, rate of return, throwing in a Mark Carney's Goss plan or going to Venezuela?
00:38:47.600So I'm worried that a proponent won't come forward if that happens.
00:38:52.660And my very first question to you was, will a pipeline be built?
00:39:23.060Well, let me just comment on why I thought there was booze.
00:39:25.560Because, you know, you and I were both in the room.
00:39:29.240Is, I don't think that it's people were disappointed in the MOU per se.
00:39:38.080I mean, it's obviously I've criticized elements of it.
00:39:41.180What I think they were disappointed in, it was almost presented to the UCP members, particularly those who are strong supporters of independence, sort of like, here, see, I fixed Canada.
00:40:14.640This MOU does not resolve the fact that the Trudeau liberals, now with the Carney liberals, have created more debt than all of the previous governments of Canada combined.
00:40:28.940That they have condemned my children, my grandchildren, and my great-grandchildren to this burden of debt, that they have been continually increasing the cost of living.
00:40:41.820They're depriving our children of a prosperous future.
00:40:45.120They're not keeping us safe with their crazy two-tier justice system.
00:40:50.180You know, Tamara Leach is under house arrest for mischief, and then they're letting rapists out and not giving them a sentence because they're worried they'll get deported and not be able to stay in Canada.
00:41:18.780I mean, even, I think, back to the two issues that I thought were interesting in her speech were transgenderism and immigration.
00:41:27.100Those are not, obviously, even touched by the MOU.
00:41:29.640There are many things on a hundred different issues, firearms being one of them.
00:41:34.380Well, let me talk about independence with you because I know that's on your mind.
00:41:37.560Um, there's, there's been battles going on.
00:41:42.860There have been other people in Alberta who said, well, we're going to get a referendum too, and it'll be a, we love Canada referendum.
00:41:49.000There's dueling referendums, and then there's recall initiatives where the NDP are going to try and get MLAs recalled, which is a great thing.
00:41:59.780I wish every politician lived in some fear that they could be recalled before the end of their term.
00:42:06.540I don't, I don't want us to be in perpetual elections, but the threat should be real.
00:42:23.420So, um, in Alberta, we have what's called the citizens initiative act and there was a, a clause in it.
00:42:31.500It's, it's a paragraph, uh, two D I believe, um, uh, in any event or two sub four, um, it, it, it's a clause in the statute that evolved over time.
00:42:45.180It had a big whole bunch of words in it and it was brought in for a specific purpose many, many years ago.
00:42:51.220And then in some recent versions of legislation, they amended it out and they just left the last bit in.
00:42:57.060And the last bit basically says that you can't have a citizens initiative petition, a petition to compel the government to hold a referendum on independence.
00:43:08.300For example, if the nature of your petition question is going to contravene the chart of rights and freedoms in certain parts of the constitution, and it gives authority to the chief electoral officer to submit to the court, uh, a reference case to decide whether or not a proposed question petition question for referendum will, uh, offend that provision.
00:43:38.300So, first of all, that clause should have never been there to begin with.
00:43:46.660Um, but secondly, the Alberta prosperity project proposed a charter question or a referendum question about Alberta independence, filed it with the chief electoral office.
00:44:00.820And then he decided to send it to the court for a review.
00:44:03.900Justice Feesby was tasked with hearing submissions on it.
00:44:07.480That process has been ongoing and on its face, this is all nonsensical because if the Supreme Court of Canada said in the Quebec case, the 1998 reference case, that if a province votes to succeed, to secede, to become independent in a clear, on a clear question and a clear majority say, yes, we want to become independent.
00:44:27.060Then that triggers a mandatory obligation for all parties to enter into good faith negotiations as to the details in the terms upon which the divorce will occur.
00:44:38.060So, and that's First Nations, all the other provinces in the federal government.
00:44:41.400So, a successful referendum doesn't mean you're out, doesn't mean, doesn't define the rights that First Nations will have in Alberta, doesn't define the rights and privileges of Albertans.
00:44:56.880All that has to be negotiated in the future and agreed to.
00:44:59.700So, it just really makes no sense to even have this provision in there in any event.
00:45:04.380All it does is creates an opportunity for judicial intervention and the judiciary to go out of its lane and potentially override the legislature.
00:45:13.960So, as this case has been evolving before the courts, before Justice Feesby, on whether or not the question posed by the Alberta Prosperity Project for an independence referendum in Alberta contravenes the Constitution and the Charter.
00:45:31.700However, the Alberta government stepped in yesterday and said, this was never the legislative intent.
00:45:40.440The legislative intent of our legislation, the Citizens Initiative Act, was that citizens would come together and they would decide if there was an important question.
00:45:50.360And if enough citizens sign, 177,000, that then triggers an obligation for the provincial government to hold a referendum.
00:52:23.200And I fear that what you've just described, which I think I understand, but what I do understand for sure, is that it's a legal ā it's a judge throwing a spanner in the works.
00:52:33.780And I fear that's the first of a dozen before ā I mean, why wouldn't they?
00:52:38.800Why ā I mean, it's ā they would do anything they could to stop this from happening.
00:52:43.740But it's very interesting to get the update.
00:52:46.860Listen, Keith, stay in touch with us on this and so many other things.
00:52:50.340And we haven't even talked about Tamara Leach today, really.
00:52:53.820And, of course, she is appealing her conviction.
00:52:58.100So that battle continues, and you're at the heart of that.