EZRA LEVANT ｜ Doug Ford's booze ban proves gov't monopolies never work
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Summary
For a guy who says he doesn t drink alcohol, Ontario Premier Doug Ford seems downright obsessed with booze, doesn t he? It all began with a weird obsession going back some seven years ago, in which Ford promised on the campaign trail that Ontarians would be able to buy a can of beer for a dollar.
Transcript
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Tonight, what are the political booze rules in the province of Ontario in terms of what gets on the
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shelf and what gets taken off? Well, it's kind of like that Meryl Streep movie. It's complicated.
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It's Friday, October 10th, 2025. I'm David Menzies and this is the Ezra Levent Show.
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You know, for a guy who says he doesn't drink alcohol, Ontario Premier Doug Ford seems downright
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obsessed over booze, doesn't he? It all began with a weird obsession going back some seven years ago
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in which Ford promised on the campaign trail that Ontarians would be able to buy a can of beer
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for a dollar. Buck-a-beer, buck-a-beer, buck-a-beer, Ford promised.
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I'd buy that for a dollar. Yeah, and how did that turn out? Well, I think buck-a-beer in Ontario
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lasted for all of two weeks. Then the price soared. Gee, today you can't even buy swill
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like Bud Light for a buck. Even to a guy like me, that's cold. But really, given all the problems
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facing Ontarians then and now, you know, like unemployment, a record deficit in debt,
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school boards being infiltrated by Marxists and Islamists, and so much more, were Ontarians ever
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really all that obsessed about getting a can of suds for a loony? Give me a break already.
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But from promising cheaper alcohol products, Ford these days is all about banning certain booze
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from the shelves of his bloated booze monopoly that would be the Liquor Control Board of Ontario.
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Oh, but make no mistake, the LCBO is indeed all about control. Ontario isn't Alberta, which has enjoyed
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a fully privatized system since 1994. That was the right move then. It's the right move now, of course.
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I mean, there is a role when it comes to the government and alcohol, and that role is to tax and regulate
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the product, not to warehouse and retail the stuff. Still, with Ford going on a booze banning jihad,
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one wonders if the LCBO will have any liquor left to control in the months ahead. And disturbingly,
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the booze banning has nothing to do with quality control or sales figures, and everything to do
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with political grandstanding. This trend kicked off in 2022 when Ford ordered the LCBO to yank Russian
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vodka off the shelves. This was due to the ongoing war between Russia and Ukraine. Three years later,
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well, knock me down with a feather. These two nations are still at war. Golly, Ford wasn't able
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to intimidate Vladimir Putin to sue for peace. Shockers. But at least Ford scored a PR photo op,
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and Doug Ford loves photo ops almost as much as he loves his cherished cherry cheesecake.
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If I wasn't Premier, I'd open up a cheesecake factory. That, my friends, is the Premier's cheesecake.
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Friends, stay safe. Stay healthy. And these are some of the fun things you can do when you're self-isolating.
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Yeah, what a fun thing to do when being quarantined. Sit around all day eating garbage.
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But these days, Ford orchestrating booze banning photo ops as opposed to, oh, I don't know, doing
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something tangible. It's getting a tad boring, wouldn't you say? Case in point, earlier this year,
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all U.S. liquor products ranging from California wines to Kentucky bourbons were also pulled from
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LCBO shelves as a result of the ongoing tariff tiff between the U.S. and Canada.
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But let's think about this for a moment, shall we? What was taking $1 billion worth of bought and paid
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for inventory off the shelves of the LCBO? What was it supposed to achieve? These products are now
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taking up space in a warehouse somewhere, which is being paid for by Ontario's ever beleaguered taxpayers,
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of course. Thanks, Dougie. Whatever happened to your old, albeit brilliant slogan, respect for taxpayers?
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I mean, even if you agree with banning U.S. booze, why not sell off the existing inventory, advising
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customers that when this stuff is gone, it's gone? Oh yeah, what am I saying? That would eradicate that
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stupid photo op of LCBO staffers yanking U.S. hutch off the shelves. So take that, Donald Trump.
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You know, this is the very reason why monopolies, especially government-run monopolies,
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are both odious and egregious. Indeed, selectively playing politics and banning certain boos thanks to
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country of origin is an example of an abusive monopoly. And because the provincial government
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owns and operates the LCBO monopoly, all this booze cancelling qualifies as abuse of regulatory authority
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someone really ought to sue. And please don't tell me that if I love Kentucky bourbon so much,
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I can just take a day trip and cross the border to say New York state or Michigan and pick up a bottle
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in the U.S. of A. There's just one hitch to that strategy. Cost. Remember when I went to a Detroit
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liquor store last month, folks? Like a rube, I actually declared my bottle of Booker's bourbon at the
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Detroit-Windsor border crossing. Spoiler alert. I found out that honesty is not the best policy. Check it out.
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Now, as you can see, this is the bourbon of choice when I come to the U.S. Booker's. It's expensive. It's
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$120 U.S. But you can't get this at the LCBO because of Doug Ford's photo op of removing all American
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booze from the LCBO. In fact, you can't get even the cheapest bourbon because anything from Kentucky,
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anything from California, that is product non grata. So I'm going to do the honest thing. I'm going to
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declare this at the border. Wonder what the penalty will be in terms of taxation, tariff, customs,
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however you want to call it. Now, here's the other thing. This is ZIN. Yes, it contains nicotine,
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but certainly not as much nicotine as what's allowed for sale in Canada. And by the way,
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there's been recent studies showing that ZIN, the consumption of which helps those with Parkinson's
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disease, but Health Canada does not approve this. So what does that mean? Is it more than paying a
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customs fee? Is it actually getting this confiscated? Even though Tobacco Classic is sold in Canada,
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we're going to see when we cross the border about an hour from now. Well, folks, we just emerged from
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the Detroit Windsor Tunnel and we told the truth that we had a bottle of bourbon and a package of ZIN.
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Oh, did we pay a price? Let's start with the ZIN. As you can see, this is me consenting to voluntary
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confiscation of the ZIN. The other option was to go back to the United States and use it there or give
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it away there. But given that it's a $6.99 item, well, you would pay more in the toll to do that. So I had
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no choice but to give it away. And by the way, they told me they're going to destroy it. And the reason
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is that ZIN is six milligrams of nicotine. The limit is four milligrams of nicotine. Now you can get
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higher nicotine in Canada, but by prescription. So you see, it's the federal government hand in hand
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with big pharma. Big pharma wants it's cut. It doesn't want you getting the high nicotine product
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from the convenience store or the liquor store. So there you have it. Here is what the taxman wanted
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for declaring the bourbon. We'll start with $6.57 in duty. Oh, that's not bad. Oh, but wait. Then we have
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the GST, HST component. That's $22.45. And oh, well, you hear this one. The provincial liquor markup fee,
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$103.45. So the grand total, $132.47. So let's pretend we're in a chronology where the US and
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Canadian dollar are on par. I paid more in provincial markups, GST, HST and duty than what I paid for the
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actual bottle, $132.47 versus $120. So I guess at the end of the day, I want to meet the jokers who coined
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the phrases, honesty is the best policy and crime doesn't pay. And as for you, Premier Ford, you forced
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me into this position. You won't allow me to buy a bottle of bourbon at your crown liquor monopoly.
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you really are a fat bastard. Yeah, I won't be making that mistake ever again. But now comes word
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that Doug Ford isn't quite done yet with the booze banning. And the latest threatened booze ban
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is really the most illogical one of all. You see, Ford is threatening to delist all Diageo products from
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the LCBO come February. Diageo owns Crown Royal and the Crown Royal bottling facility in Amherstburg,
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Ontario, which is near Windsor, is slated to close early next year. Diageo, it should be noted,
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is a booze behemoth. In the fiscal year ending in June 2025, it had more than US $20 billion in revenue.
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But when the Amherstburg plant is shuttered, 160 workers will be given their pink slips.
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This will be a debilitating blow for this town of 25,000. By the way, how is this even happening? I mean,
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isn't this why Mark Captain Canuck Carney, Ford's newest best boyfriend in Ottawa, was elected in April?
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He was going to save the day and end the tariff dispute and make Canada great again or something
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like that. However, it looks like elbows up has been replaced with knees down, but never mind.
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For its part, Diageo says the closure of the plant has nothing to do with the ongoing tariff tiff.
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Marsha McIntosh, Diageo's president of North America Supply, said the following in a
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statement, quote, this was a difficult decision, but one that is crucial to improving the efficiency
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and resiliency of our supply chain network, end quote. Now, I did reach out to Diageo's media
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relations department for further comment, but I never heard back. I also paid a visit to the Crown Royal
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plant last month, but employees told me they had been instructed not to speak to the media.
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Naturally, the upcoming closure did not go unnoticed by Premier Ford, and shockers, you guessed it,
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Ford staged a photo op, this time pouring a large bottle of Crown Royal down the drain.
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So, you know something? I found a bottle, and I don't even drink, of Crown Royal, right? I see that Crown Royal, I saw it at home.
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So, this is what I think about Crown Royal. That's what they could do. And I think everyone else should do the same thing.
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Start supporting companies that make whiskey here by Ontario people. That's what we need to do,
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and support each other. You know something? I've got to make this even come out quicker,
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because it's not coming out. I know Mayor Barry wants to lie on the floor right now.
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No thanks. I wish I could get the soap coming out quicker, but I'll stand here until it falls.
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Nice. What's more, a blustery Ford threatened to play hardball with Diageo should the closure
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go through as scheduled, which is to say all Diageo products would be delisted from LCBO stores.
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That's a big deal. In addition to Crown Royal, Diageo produces more than 200 brands of booze,
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including Johnny Walker Scotch, Captain Morgan Rum, Tangeri Gin, Bailey's Irish Cream, and Guinness Beer.
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Ford says the LCBO is Diageo's biggest customer, with sales of its products at the LCBO amounting to more
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than 740 million per year. So far, the company has not reversed course and intends to close
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the Amherstburg facility in February as planned. Now, I'm of two minds about Ford's strategy here, folks.
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The announced closure is, of course, horrible news for this town, and I very much feel for the Crown Royal employees
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who will be out of a job in the months ahead if the closure indeed goes through.
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Windsor already has a staggering 11.2% unemployment rate. Where will these workers find jobs?
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But by the same token, in the bigger picture, I wonder, just what are the rules when it comes to those
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alcohol products that get delisted in Ontario, not due to lack of demand, but rather due to politics?
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Well, let's start with Crown Royal, which is as Canadian as you can get. Crown Royal whiskey is distilled
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and aged in Gimli, Manitoba. There's also a bottling facility in Valleyfield, Quebec. As well,
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the ingredients in Crown Royal, such as corn, rye, and barley, are grown in Western Canada by Canadian
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farmers. Also, the Canadian headquarters and the warehouse operations of DAGO are situated in the
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Toronto area. So, if Ford goes through with his threat, this is going to affect everyone from farmers
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in the prairies to bottlers in Quebec. Last time I checked, those folks were still carrying Canadian
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passports. Oh, and here's another thing. Last time I surfed the LCBO's website, it was stocking some 176
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products from China! 176! But why? China has an egregious human rights record. China is conducting
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a genocide of its Uyghur people. China has delivered a debilitating hit on Canuck canola farmers by
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slapping Canadian canola seed with a 78.5% tariff, not to mention a 100% duty on canola oil, meal,
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and peas. And let us never, ever forget that the People's Republic of China was responsible for the
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COVID-19 pandemic, which killed millions of people and cost the world's economy untold trillions of
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dollars. So, why does this communist dictatorship get a free pass at the LCBO? Why the hell are we doing
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business with these people when we don't need to? If Ting Cao beer is pulled from the shelves, well,
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too bad, so sad. Pick up a six-pack of Labatt Blue or choose from hundreds of other brands that are
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domestically produced. You know, products that are bottled in Canada with Canadian ingredients
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and made by Canadian workers. Now, I did reach out to the Ontario Ministry of Finance, which oversees the
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LCBO. But like all ministries in Ontario under Ford these days, they are under a gag order and will not
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comment to the independent media. Pathetic. Gee, maybe we need to rebrand this province as the
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Democratic People's Republic of Ontario and perhaps get Doug Ford fitted for a crown. At least that would
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amount to some truth in advertising. Then again, perhaps Doug Ford, like his former Ontario-based
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best buddy, Justin Trudeau, also has a level of admiration for China, end quote. Or maybe, just maybe,
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China makes the world's finest cherry cheesecake. If that's the case, you think Doug Ford is gonna rock
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that boat? But the booze brouhaha in Ontario tells you all you need to know about the Ford PCs. They are
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all sizzle and no steak. They certainly aren't conservative. It's disgraceful. It's sad. It's
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nonsensical. It's self-defeating. And in the meantime, I'm praying every day that Ontario doesn't end up
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getting into some sort of stupid dispute with Scotland, because if Doug Ford declares they
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yanked scotch from LCBO shelves. Well, in the immortal words of Bugs Bunny,
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I know in Ontario, where the sea lions kiss, so the story goes. It's amazing shows and friendship code.
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Everyone loves marine land. You'll be spending, diving, and soaring high. I rode a coaster ride,
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we'll fly you to the sky. Now you know what you say when you leave here today. Everyone loves marine land.
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Yes, that was then. And this is now, if you were to revise the theme song for the now defunct park
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known as Marine Land and Game Farm, I would say everybody hates marine land would be more appropriate.
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And a new low was reached earlier this week, with marine land basically telling the government that
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either pay up or we're going to kill off the remaining stock of beluga whales. It's unbelievable.
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Once upon a time, marine land was a thriving theme park, but now they're selling off the land.
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They're selling off the thrill rides and they were trying to sell off their marine mammal stock,
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namely sending the belugas to a similar park in China until the federal government put the kibosh
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on that. So where do we go from here? Well folks, joining me now is Phil Demere. He is a former
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trainer of whales at Marine Land in Niagara Falls and he is now a whistleblower and very much a thorn in
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the side of the people who are operating this now defunct park. Phil, thank you so much. Welcome to the
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Ezra Levent Show. Thanks for having me. Well Phil, first of all, let's begin with the, you know,
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the decision by the federal government where they blocked marine land from sending these whales
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to China. Now, a lot of people are saying, if you do so, you're committing those whales to a death
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sentence or at least misery in those apparently polluted and cramped tanks. But others are saying
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that was the right call because it'll just be more of the same in China. Where do you weigh in,
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my friend? I think in the balance of things, the decision to send them to China would have been
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responsible. The facilities in China are, for the most part, way newer. In fact, many brand new. The
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specific facility called Chimelong Ocean Kingdom in China, where Marine Land was intent on sending the
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belugas. They have some of the world's largest tanks and the quality of the water is really good.
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And obviously the life support systems are up to date, et cetera. The minister ultimately made the
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decision because in the spirit of the law that we passed in 2019 called Bill S203, it basically
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ends marine mammal captivity in Canada with the caveat that exporting the animals can only be approved if it's
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the interest if it's in the interest of the animal. As well in that law was a breeding ban. Now, in China,
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they continue to do performances. So, you know, trainers will enter the water, et cetera, with the beluga whales.
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And as well, they breed whales. So she really sort of hung the bulk of her rationale on the idea of
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stopping that. But the reality for these whales is the only options for them is sideways.
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So it's another tank at another place. Again, I stress that most places have better conditions
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than Marine Land, but a question of the animal law oversight and enforcement comes in, you know,
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comes into play in those considerations. But that said, when you've got 30 whales to deal with and
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only so many facilities in the U.S. and only so many facilities around the world that can take them,
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by eliminating some of the better facilities in the world, you really narrow the options to not much
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better. So much is left to be seen on where this goes. But I think that's a decision that's going to
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be revisited. So, Phil, assuming the government doesn't flip-flop on this decision, as you said,
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there are options. What are the options? For example, I understand there are some sanctuaries out there.
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Is that viable? There are not sanctuaries out there. There are proposed ideas. There are theories.
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None are operational. One tried in Iceland, but unfortunately it wasn't working out. And so it's
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taken more steps back than forward. And the proposed one in Nova Scotia is merely a theory. They do not
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have the landowner's approval. So call them a painting on the wall and a fancy presentation. But there's no
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viability, no realistic chance of sending them anywhere that's a proposal of that nature. And
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frankly, that would take years and years and years and years. And many of those sanctuaries have already
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been claiming that they would be ready for years and years and years and years. And using the Nova
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Scotia sanctuary proposal as an example, they started saying in 2019 that they would be ready the following
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year to get animals. Well, 30 whales have just about 30 whales have died in that time. And there's
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been exactly zero progress. So as many whales have died since the proposal of the sanctuary idea,
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then there are remaining. And there's been zero progress on that front. So really, when I stress
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that the only options remaining are sideways and perhaps north in the sense of being a little bit
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better, is that there are facilities in the US, there's six of them that still have belugas in
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captivity. They don't do performances. So it's for the most part, display only. And I don't want to
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be quoted, but I don't think they're breeding them. I know that SeaWorld has an in-house policy
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that they've stopped breeding their orcas. I can't be certain that that's extended to their
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beluga whales, but I've not heard of a beluga whale born in the US recently in a long time. Now,
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one of the issues with the US is they don't want to do business with Marineland because they had
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only years ago sent five beluga whales to Mystic Aquarium, three of which died within weeks and
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months of that facility receiving them because they were sick animals. Another one was on death's
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door, but recovered. And a number of years ago, Marineland also had to sue SeaWorld to get back
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one of their loner orcas. So in the US, Marineland has a rather tarnished corporate name. So no one
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really wants to affiliate. But I do see a scenario where if the government does seize the animals,
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maybe those facilities will come to the table to discuss caretaking those animals or taking them and
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adhering to the spirit of the Canadian law, which is not to breed them or use them for entertainment.
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And maybe some of those whales can find themselves a home in the US. But outside of that, there's not much
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more. Phil, what I'm sure you hear this chorus of voices that are saying, well, for goodness sakes,
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just release them back into the wild. I'm not a marine biologist expert by any stretch,
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but I'm assuming an animal like a beluga whale, years in captivity, being fed hand to mouth,
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this free willy fantasy, if you will, it just isn't viable that that would indeed be a death sentence
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for these belugas as well. What say you, my friend, side of doing it really, really responsibly,
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responsibly, which is, which would be very arduous, very expensive, it would require infrastructure,
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and etc, etc. It's not something in the interest of the animals, those animals need to remain under
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human care. And again, even if we were to take approximate steps and trying to re-release into the
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wild, it would take years and years and years, and not all the animals would be candidates,
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not all of them would be successful at it. For context, two of the remaining beluga whales at
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Marineland were actually captured from the wild. The rest have been born in captivity. So they've
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only ever known captivity. Captivity has compromised them, not only in their instincts, but in their
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physical being. They are different whales now with different sets of needs. And if we're going to
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accommodate those, those needs, they need to remain under human care. Phil, what do you make of that,
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I thought, shocking announcement by Marineland, where they said to the government, pay us because
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these whales, it costs a million or two to feed them every month. Pay us or we kill them. It was
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basically, A, extortion. And B, I understand that if you're going to euthanize an endangered animal,
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unless it's very sick or injured, that is illegal. I understand belugas are on the endangered list. So
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is Marineland suggesting they're going to break the law?
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So Marineland, as I stressed in prior conversations with you, is full of bluster. This is another one of
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Andrew Burns' specialties. So I've just endured 13 years of litigation against them in trying to get a
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walrus removed from Marineland. And it was much of the same. It's much of the same bluster. At the
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end of the day, Marineland sits on 700 acres of prime real estate. There's tons of money here to
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fuel the trust fund, which is going to go to the heirs. Marineland is simply very upset because it
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was a lucrative deal to China. They wanted that money. They didn't get it. And so now because they
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didn't get their way, they're stomping their feet. So this is just another one of Andrew Burns' means
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of operation. It's how he's always operated. It's threats. It's bluster. It's building fences. It's
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putting up fights. It's filing lawsuits. But it's rarely actually ever addressing the criticisms or the
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or the issues at hand. And Phil, can you tell our audience briefly who is Andrew Burns? I understand
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he's a lawyer that got involved with the estate of the original Marineland founders. But what is his
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agenda? We have reached out to him, by the way, in our coverage. He doesn't return our calls or answer
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our emails. So can you give our audience a little description of who Mr. Burns is?
00:30:29.580
Well, Burns, he came across my radar when I was sued by Marineland. My girlfriend was sued. A number
00:30:35.100
of us were sued. A number of whistleblowers, Marineland whistleblowers specifically, were sued.
00:30:39.900
And this is how we came to learn of Andrew Burns. So his job, he's known as what you call a cleaner.
00:30:45.820
So people with reputation and lots of money, when they engage in activities that seem to
00:30:52.860
that have the risk of tarnishing that public reputation, then Andrew Burns enters the
00:31:00.780
scene and he's a cleaner. He's there to get rid of your problems and sort of clean that up. And so he's
00:31:06.460
been brought up, he's been brought in as a cleaner for Marineland. And again, this started back in 2012.
00:31:12.300
And over the course of the 13 years, Marineland, of course, became defunct, you know, poor management
00:31:16.700
decisions, just general poor decisions as a whole, ignoring critics and suing them rather than actually
00:31:21.660
listening to what it is that we had to say. And now Andrew Burns' interest with the fact that the
00:31:27.660
owner's dead, the owner's wife died, the firstborn was dead, and now there's only
00:31:33.420
an adopted son and that son's daughters that remain as heirs. His job is to do what he can to,
00:31:42.220
you know, protect the trust while, I mean, I hate to say it, but evidently padding his own
00:31:50.780
And really, Phil, is that what this is all about? It's about the almighty dollar, because to go to those
00:31:57.020
U.S. facilities to give the whales to them, that's what it means. They give the whales there. I
00:32:04.380
understand they don't buy whales. They don't have the resources to buy whales. I don't even know what
00:32:09.100
the going price of beluga whales are these days. And is there a reluctance by the likes of Mr. Burns
00:32:17.740
to simply give up these whales? Because I imagine there's some people that just look at them as
00:32:24.620
commodities, much like the land at Marineland, much like the thrill rides that they're now selling off.
00:32:31.420
That's right. They're an asset. They have value. But there's a risk to that asset,
00:32:37.100
being that if they aren't sold for top dollar, there's, you know, there's the risk of the costs
00:32:41.340
of keeping them. So that's what's going on here. This is a money issue. Again, Marineland has inordinate
00:32:46.540
amounts of values in the land that they sit on. Andrew Burns' role is to preserve that value.
00:32:52.140
And because this deal that would otherwise have been lucrative for Marineland fell through,
00:32:57.020
he's angry. He's angry. So he wants to, he wants to blame everyone but Marineland.
00:33:01.820
Unbelievable. And folks, I should tell you that my cameraman Lincoln Jay and I, we did go out to
00:33:06.700
Marineland to try to get answers. It looks like there's a gag order on their employees here. Check
00:33:14.940
it out. Do you work at Marineland? Okay. Is there anyone here that can talk to us, sir?
00:33:19.260
Nope. Nobody will talk to you. And what happened after our report aired? Well,
00:33:26.620
they erected a giant fence around the Marineland parking lot. So you could never get that close.
00:33:33.740
However, fences don't thwart drones. And we had drone photography of Phil, what I consider to be
00:33:43.420
squalid conditions. The water didn't look clean. The tanks are certainly too small, I think. And again,
00:33:50.940
I'm not a marine mammal expert, but they look too small to contain these whales. And you know,
00:33:57.740
the longer this goes on, I mean, when we first visited it, it was in July. Here we are in October.
00:34:02.940
I think these animals are suffering and it's just not right. If I'm to ask you to look into your
00:34:10.300
crystal ball, proverbially, what is going to happen to the belugas, the dolphins, the seals,
00:34:19.660
the bears, the elk, the deer, all these animals that still remain in this abandoned park?
00:34:27.660
My guess is the marine mammals will be spared. They will be sent and and shared amongst a number
00:34:34.700
of facilities around the world. That'll be that resolved. There's not going to be any euthanasia
00:34:38.940
as a cost savings measure of any healthy animals. That's a last, that's an absolute last resort and
00:34:45.580
only in the case of, of dire medical problems. So that's not happening. The dolphins certainly are
00:34:51.660
not, you don't hear Marineland talking about euthanizing the dolphins because the dolphins have
00:34:56.220
a far more popular brand of the public and there would be a far greater response than that of the
00:35:00.540
belugas. So they're very tactical in the way that they, in the way that they used sort of their,
00:35:06.140
their threats. But I can't vote that the, that the bears won't be euthanized. I certainly can't vote
00:35:11.340
that the deer won't be. I can't vote that the bison haven't already been because
00:35:15.500
they've disappeared and we can't get a sense exactly of where they've gone.
00:35:19.900
So the land animals are certainly, it's certainly in trouble, but why they're still there is a bit
00:35:23.900
of a mystery. If, uh, uh, you know, it's costing money to, to feed them as well. So, you know,
00:35:30.220
it's the whole of it is a bit of a mystery on exactly what's going on back there. And just to
00:35:34.860
the extent of what it is that their, their plans are with, with the array of animals they have.
00:35:39.340
But I do stress that when it comes to marine mammals, there's just too much demand.
00:35:42.940
And I think the fallout is such that anyone that has anything to do with
00:35:47.340
any harm to these animals and implicitly, if anyone does it, participates in the euthanasia,
00:35:53.180
that's a cloud that will follow every single individual veterinarian employee or anyone that
00:35:57.820
has any hand in doing that for the remainder of their lives. That's a solemn promise, not just
00:36:02.300
from myself, but from the inside of their own souls. So none of that's going to happen. I'm always trying
00:36:06.780
to rest people assured of that. Uh, don't buy the bluster, but you know, they are in an awful
00:36:12.780
predicament. And so what becomes is on everyone's mind. Uh, but we certainly hope that in the end,
00:36:17.740
it is in the interest of the animals. And Phil, you know, I, I discussed this with you
00:36:22.460
when I met you outside Marineland for our followup report, you know, I hadn't been to Marineland in
00:36:28.060
decades, but as a child, I remember going there was a rite of passage. If you're going to Niagara
00:36:33.260
Falls along with the cheesy haunted houses on Clifton Hill. And of course the magnificent falls
00:36:38.540
themselves. And, you know, it was a fun experience, but I guess, is there more of a realization that
00:36:48.060
this is really an act of cruelty to these majestic animals that despite those, uh, beautifully produced
00:36:56.060
ads, you know, that ran in the seventies, eighties, and nineties, that it really was not a good
00:37:02.380
experience for the animals. You trained whales there. Can you give us some insight into why
00:37:09.500
maybe this is just wrong, not just for Marineland, but for all the sea world like parks around the
00:37:17.100
world to continue to do this? Well, there was a time as you stated when there was the, uh, the,
00:37:24.540
the Marineland jingle and everyone's hearts and minds. Uh, you know, I heard it 14 times a day while
00:37:30.140
I worked there, but you know, most Ontarians sort of feel the same way when they turn on the TV.
00:37:35.660
Uh, but that industry controlled the message. You know, they told us why Marineland had to exist.
00:37:39.580
They told us all the positive effects on the animals. The animals look like they're smiling.
00:37:43.100
They look happy when they're jumping, et cetera. Well-produced commercial goes a long ways.
00:37:49.260
It wasn't until, uh, the internet sort of made it to its way into the collective conscience. It
00:37:55.660
wasn't until, uh, cell phones had cameras that people were suddenly all journalists in a, in a way.
00:38:02.140
And, uh, you know, once you started putting drones up, especially in, and offering a vantage point
00:38:07.180
and sort of talking to whistleblowers, you know, people like myself, former trainers
00:38:10.860
in the documentary, black fish, it sort of sealed the fate of these, uh, of these facilities,
00:38:15.340
because we know now that they were operating entirely under a guise of education and it was
00:38:20.780
all lies and deceptions. The animals that we've come to learn in all of this do not thrive in
00:38:25.660
captivity. In fact, their lives are cut in half or less. We know that when you separate, uh, animals
00:38:30.220
from their natural environment, it compromises them when you take them away from their family.
00:38:34.700
And, you know, especially in the case of whales who are social animals that lived their entire
00:38:38.540
lifetime with their families. Uh, these are really, really, really damaging, uh, uh, practices that we've
00:38:44.300
engaged in, uh, the, the level of cruelty, I think it's still off the map, off the chart for our
00:38:50.300
actual understanding, but I think there'll come a day when we look back at this and we'll consider
00:38:54.380
ourselves quite brutal for the practice. How sad. And, you know, these are sentient,
00:38:59.580
intelligent animals. Uh, so it's heartbreaking to hear that. Phil, tell us about yourself. You were
00:39:06.540
a trainer of these whales in Marineland. What was it that made you go from a trainer at Marineland
00:39:14.940
to a whistleblower? So when I started, uh, to be fair, it wasn't really my objective to be an
00:39:21.660
animal trainer. It wasn't, uh, it wasn't high on my interest on the list of, of to-do lists in my life.
00:39:27.740
Uh, but I did have an attractive diploma in audio engineering and multimedia post-production,
00:39:33.340
and they have, as you know, uh, quite a production, including sound and lights,
00:39:37.420
et cetera. So, uh, I got my job sort of by accident. Uh, you know, I had a scuba license
00:39:42.540
at the time. So, you know, all of a sudden they saw me as someone that could, you know,
00:39:46.460
work with the animals, but also work with the sound, work with the, with the stage,
00:39:50.620
the show, uh, production, as well as, you know, do some of the daily grinds, such as, uh,
00:39:55.660
cleaning up, uh, the tanks, et cetera. So I went in there ignorant, not knowing what to expect.
00:40:01.020
I expected that a place like Marineland that is as celebrated as it was, uh, back in 2000,
00:40:06.220
when I started that the people that I would be working for knew what they were talking about.
00:40:10.540
I assumed I'd be going to a place that knew what they were doing. But frankly, what I found,
00:40:14.620
even especially on day one was everything was largely improvised. The facilities were awful.
00:40:19.900
The, the animals, I, I was, I was gutted on day one of what it actually was. Uh, but,
00:40:26.140
but I stressed that I'm a company guy. I admit a level of ignorance in that. I didn't exactly know
00:40:31.820
what I was doing there. Everyone else seemed to be jumping around with a certain step in their
00:40:35.580
certain, uh, you know, kick in their step. And, and so I just fell in line and did the, and, and,
00:40:40.700
just went for it, right. This is the job. This is what's expected. This is how it goes.
00:40:44.460
Over the course of my many years, you go from scrubbing buckets to, uh, getting a little closer
00:40:48.540
to the decision-making, you know, you beat you, you now close work closer to management, et cetera.
00:40:53.100
I started designing the shows for that matter, training the animals, training the trainers
00:40:56.780
to train the animals, training the trainers to perform in the shows, doing the soundtracks for
00:41:00.700
the shows. And eventually I was having to make decisions in the interest of the animals, be
00:41:04.300
their voice. And so start sitting in boardroom meetings, et cetera. And you're offering perspective
00:41:09.740
of what the animals need and everything's being shot down, et cetera, in the interest of profit or
00:41:14.540
whatever, you sort of get a better sense of the way things are. Well, well, in the year prior to my
00:41:20.140
quitting, we had a water disinfection unit break. It's a ozone generator. And so the chemical ozone
00:41:26.060
works in conjunction with chlorine. So it mitigates its use. So you don't have to use as much chlorine
00:41:31.260
if you're using a healthy combination of the two. Well, as you can attest, just as anyone else has ever
00:41:36.940
been in a hyperchlorinated pool, the effects of high chlorine are awful. Well, if you're a marine mammal,
00:41:42.700
it's significantly worse because there's no reprieve from that water whatsoever. So in 2011, we had a
00:41:48.140
breakdown of the water disinfection unit. The ozone generator broke. And because Marineland only
00:41:54.060
operated six months out of the year, we used to close during the winter, there was complacency
00:42:00.380
in actually fixing the issue. And the more we complained as trainers and maintenance employees and
00:42:06.300
veterinarians, the more defiant the owner became. Mornings, I would show up to work and I would be a
00:42:11.820
pungent smell of chlorine as if someone dumped a barrel the night before. And as soon as I saw
00:42:17.980
the animals, I knew that in fact, this was the case. You know, I witnessed animals whose eyes were
00:42:22.940
bleeding. I witnessed a male sea lion bark in such pain and his eyeball projected out of its eye socket
00:42:32.060
due to the wear of the damage that the chlorine. I watched dolphins skin slough off in chunks,
00:42:38.780
sea lions fur come off. Walruses, they had inflamed chemical burns. It was a real veritable nightmare
00:42:45.340
to work there. And it occurred to me that so long as I stay quiet or protect Marineland in that I'm not
00:42:52.380
getting anything done in house, I got to go fight outside these walls. And that's what was my inspiration
00:42:58.540
was I got to try to put a stop to the suffering. I quit. In the immediate response, Marineland
00:43:04.700
dumped the water. Finally, it took months for that to happen. It took me to quit my job for that to
00:43:08.380
happen. But to be fair, from that moment on, obviously, my relationship with Marineland was not
00:43:14.220
great. And my being a, you know, knowing the inside and out of that place, I kept a close eye on them.
00:43:22.140
And here we are 13 years later, you know, they sued me for millions of dollars for my advocacy.
00:43:26.540
Of course, they sued me for plotting to steal a walrus was there. That's right. And so,
00:43:33.500
you know, much of Marineland's bluster that they're existing in now, the whole like, hey,
00:43:37.020
we'll kill these whales if you don't give us money. I endured that for 13 years. But in the end,
00:43:41.340
Marineland was forced to move those walruses. And I suspect that at the end of all of this
00:43:46.940
blustery campaign of Marineland, they'll be forced to move their marine mammals as well.
00:43:51.020
Well, Phil, that's certainly heartbreaking information you're giving us regarding the
00:43:56.700
chlorine issues and the effect on the animals lives. And I think you've adroitly outlined
00:44:02.780
the whole issue of Marineland. We're just running out of racetrack. So one last question, I think it
00:44:08.860
might be the most important question. It's the chronology moving forward. These whales, as far as I
00:44:15.340
can tell from our own drone footage, it seems they spend the entire day just swimming in circles in
00:44:22.300
cramped containers, perhaps water that isn't as clean as it should be. If there is going to be a
00:44:33.260
transfer of these belugas to those US facilities, and there won't be a cash transaction, of course,
00:44:41.100
when will this be done? Because Marineland hasn't opened its doors since last summer, correct?
00:44:47.340
Again, there's a permitting process that requires, you know, some due diligence and approvals,
00:44:52.780
et cetera, at the federal level. There needs to be a lot of conversations with those facilities,
00:44:57.740
which I don't know that they're necessarily being engaged just yet. I know the government,
00:45:02.300
provincial and federal and Marineland all had to sit down a couple days ago to consider things.
00:45:07.260
I know that the heat's being turned down on the rhetoric, so you won't be hearing of any more of
00:45:11.660
these threats, that's for sure. But timeline wise, those animals are going to be there for a while
00:45:19.900
yet. Every scenario that exists in terms of a resolve for them still requires them to be in there for
00:45:27.900
longer than I'd certainly hope. But you know, the reality is, even if we were to even if we were to
00:45:34.540
jump on trying to find a resolve right now, there's going to be months into years that those animals
00:45:40.620
Unbelievable, Phil. And in the meantime, as you said, in the days, weeks, months ahead,
00:45:45.580
these animals continue to suffer in, well, inappropriate conditions. Let's leave it at that.
00:45:52.460
Phil, I want to thank you so much for making time with us. If you hear anything about any move
00:45:59.900
that Marineland is going to make, we'd love to hear from you. And I know you've paid a price. They've,
00:46:05.660
they've gone after you lawfare wise to try to sue you into silence, but you're not bending the knee.
00:46:13.340
Phil, I want to thank you once again. Have a wonderful Thanksgiving.