EZRA LEVANT ｜ Ireland's war on free speech — and the outlet that's fighting back
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Summary
In Ireland, the government is trying to crack down on free speech, and we're here to talk about it. We're joined by Ben Scallon, a reporter with the pro-activist website GRIPT.ie, to talk all things censorship in Ireland.
Transcript
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Tonight, perhaps the most terrifying plan for censorship I've heard yet.
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Ireland is a country of about 5 million souls, and it has, I think, a disproportionate number
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of people who use the English language as a weapon.
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I think of Yeats and his incredible poem, The Second Coming, you know the one where he
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talks about the best lack all conviction, while the worst are full of passionate intensity.
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I think of that phrase a lot when I think of, well, for example, the pandemic, that the
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worst people among us were motivated by the best were, well, they lacked all conviction.
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I just can't imagine any of the hundreds of Irish poets and playwrights and lyricists and
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I think of so many artists who marshal the English language in a way that is prickly.
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I think there's something about the Irish personality.
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And then for Ireland's government to say, we are now going to crack down on speech that
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we, the politicians, find undesirable, I can't think of anything more un-Irish than that.
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That's my view sitting over on this side of the pond.
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But I have started to follow a news source in Ireland very closely.
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In some ways, they remind me of what Rebel News is doing here in Canada.
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The name of the organization, we've interviewed one or two of their reporters before, it's
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I don't know exactly what it means, but that's the name, GRIPT.ie.
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And one of the big projects they do is talk about the war on free speech in Ireland.
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Joining us now from Dublin City is Ben Scallon, one of the reporters at GRIPT.ie.
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I just, I've never been to Ireland other than passing through the airport.
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But I, the idea of censorship and Ireland, that's like oil and water to me.
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I just, I just can't imagine any self-respecting Irishman believes that someone else should tell
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I mean, there's been a lot of laws that have been drafted and either passed or presented
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for imminent passage by the government in the last couple of years in relation to censorship,
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be it stamping out so-called misinformation and disinformation or so-called hate speech.
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And there's really no evidence been provided by the government that there's any public outcry
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All of the polling and their own public consultations, I think you guys might call it a comment period
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in North America, all of the evidence we have available shows that the public are overwhelmingly
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opposed to this stuff and yet they're driving ahead with it anyway.
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So it's very inexplicable, at least insofar as what you would expect a politician to do,
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which is to pursue, you know, one of the interesting things is people always say,
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oh, sure, politicians, they're only in it for the votes.
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It seems like the Irish government is determined to do everything that makes it unpopular and
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do the exact opposite of what the general public is actually asking it to do.
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You know, I just got back from New Zealand, which in some ways is similar to Ireland.
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I mean, you might be thinking, what on earth could those two countries have in common?
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Well, they're about the same size in terms of population.
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They're both led, in the case of Jacinda Ardern, who just finished as the prime minister down
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And if I'm not mistaken, if I'm pronouncing it right, Leo Varadkar in Ireland, both are
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And both of them use identical language about misinformation and malinformation.
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And then I suppose Trudeau, you could throw him in there.
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I feel like I'm watching three triplets who are doing this as part of some higher ideological
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There's no demand in any of the three countries, Canada, Ireland, or New Zealand for censorship.
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In fact, I've never heard of any country in history call out for censorship.
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But I feel like the three leaders I've just mentioned are sort of cut from the same cloth.
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And this is their mission to enlighten their country by censoring it.
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Yeah, I think that it's kind of amazing the uniformity of governments across the Western
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world at this point and how all of these unrelated politicians are pushing almost identical policies
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using almost identical language at the exact same time.
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I think you guys probably do similar stuff in Canada and in the United States and other
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places where we'll cut together compilations of politicians from different political parties,
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parties who ostensibly oppose one another, all using the exact same language.
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Like, for example, during the Ukrainian refugee crisis that's going on in Europe at the minute,
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we've taken in an absolutely alarming amount of asylum seekers from abroad, from all over
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Some towns and villages up and down the west coast of Ireland have literally had their
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populations more than doubled overnight, where the town will have a population of 800
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and suddenly there's a thousand asylum seekers there.
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And when justifying the policy, politicians from across the political spectrum all have said
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on loop like a beating drum that we need to abide by our international obligations.
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You know, it's our international obligations that have required us to take in all of these
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So I don't know what to make of that or what to infer from that.
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I think if anything, it just shows the lack of imagination.
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If you want to put it in a, you know, the most benign terms possible, that they are chronically
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short on new ideas that that might be the culprit.
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Well, I think that is too benign an explanation.
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Reminds me of when all the leaders around the world on cue started using the phrase build
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It was bizarre to see that that phrase just emanating from everywhere as if everyone just
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I have a theory that, of course, there are local democracies and local parliaments and
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But there is no denying that these masters of the universe do gather together without the
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same scrutiny and disclosure that they have in their national parliaments in Davos, at
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But, you know, the Jacinda Ardern's, the Leo Varadkar's, the Justin Trudeau's, they hammer
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And without any opposition, without any disclosure of who's there, who's lobbying.
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And then they go back to their lowly countries where the peasants don't like it.
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I think it's identical how Leo Varadkar has pushed these things in Ireland and Justin Trudeau
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These, this is from the Electoral Commission, if I'm not mistaken, including a member of
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You were asking questions about how their Electoral Commission is now arrogating unto
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itself the power to censor the debate during an election.
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And I want to play a few minutes of it because it's astonishing to me.
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So, yeah, the Electoral Commission was just established in February of this year, and
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And it has a load of different functions that are most of which are mundane.
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So it'll be things like redrawing new constituency boundaries as the population changes and,
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you know, getting people on the electoral register.
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Just kind of run of the mill, logistical stuff, nothing too controversial.
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But one of their functions is also to regulate misinformation and disinformation during election
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They do have the legal power to, if you post something during a campaign, let's say,
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when you're running for public office, they can order Twitter.
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They can order any publication they want to take it down and correct the quote-unquote error
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if that is indeed what they determine it to be.
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Now, of course, as any sensible person knows, there is no possible way to determine in an
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It's, you know, these kinds of things are inevitably going to end up just being a matter of opinion.
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And we've seen that so many times over the last couple of years.
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I mean, COVID is the most prime example of that, where how many times did the establishment say that X was the truth?
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And then it turns out it was the exact opposite.
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And things that had been labeled as so-called misinformation turned out to be absolutely correct,
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like the Wuhan lab leak theory, just to pull one example out of the hat.
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So this kind of thing is absolutely just waiting to be abused.
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And, I mean, it hasn't been in force yet for an Irish election.
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We've got a local election coming up next year.
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So it'll be very interesting to see how it plays out.
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But that's basically who this group are, and that's their modus operandi going forward.
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And here's the question he put to these high priests of the ultimate truth.
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Now, by the way, Ben, I know that you believe that there are some objective truths,
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especially if we were talking about things like mathematics.
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But when we're talking about political differences of opinion,
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because we don't all agree on what the truth is.
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The thought that these commissioners would be the arbiters, it's terrifying.
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Our work is focused on the protection enhancement of democracy in the broad sense.
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And the main function purpose is so that we ensure that people have trust
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and continue to have trust in the election system, our democratic system generally.
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Mr. O'Leary, of course, one of your electoral commission's purposes
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is shutting down alleged disinformation at election time.
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And in June of this year, you told the media that the scale of disinformation
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I'm just wondering if you could give an example of disinformation
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that was spread during an Irish election that materially harmed that election in some way.
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Okay, Ben, we're here to talk about the constituency review, but I'll make a brief remark,
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and we will return to this subject into the future.
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As you know, for anyone who heard me speak in June, what I actually said was having,
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we spent 20 minutes with a panel of people who gave many, many examples of electoral
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And what I actually said was, as well, as you have heard from the panel, the scale of
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The commission was established in February, and our job is to look forward.
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But we can't ignore the fact that there is weighty international evidence that electoral
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misinformation, disinformation carries on online in a survey, or the research that was
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And in 92% of those cases, there was found to be examples of misinformation, disinformation.
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Ireland wasn't one of those countries, but I think there is no reason to assume that we'll
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We're really looking forward to getting stuck into this part of our brief, and we will be
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speaking to you all about our approach to misinformation and disinformation as we get to
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Do you have a kind of a specific criteria for how you would determine whether something is
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Like if you're presented with a piece of information, how do you distinguish something
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that's disinformation as opposed to just a difference of opinion, let's say?
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Well, they're defined very clearly in the legislation, Ben.
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So if you go back and have a look at how they are both defined, that's the standard of which
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the commission, or me as chief executive, will make a determination in that regard.
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I should say to those of you who haven't read the very long Electoral Act, that we have very
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extensive powers to, A, research the general topic of information and the way in which advertising
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But also we have powers to require the correction or removal of information we believe to be
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And they are very extensive powers, not found in fact in that many other European countries.
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We're all going to have to become philosophers in a sense.
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We're all going to have to learn how to test truth.
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And the commission is going to have to learn, A, what the tools are and how to explain them
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But we're also going to have to deal with the balance between the right of freedom of expression
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on the one hand, and on the other hand, the right of persons not to be misinformed.
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It will be a difficult exercise, but it's fundamental to the protection of democracy.
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And it's regarded as such by all international bodies, I think.
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I don't think I've seen a scarier three minutes in my life.
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Such an enormous problem, he can't think of one example.
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There are studies in other countries of which Ireland was not one.
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I think the worst part was when your Supreme Court judge there was saying we're all going
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We have an enormous power to determine the truth.
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Well, but that's not quite true, because what I think and what you think as philosophers
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Imagine a government agency saying we have an enormous power, and the law sets out how
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Oh, that's all we have to do is write down a law, and then we can all just know the truth,
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because it's right there in the law, Ben, don't you know?
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She says at once that this is an almost unique legislation, and she says everyone's doing
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it, and we're going to find out all together in this messy way.
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Is this just, oh, okay, that's how it is, or are Irish people standing up?
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I'm really confused by the fact that the media has not really even bothered to inquire about
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In fact, we have this hate speech bill, which is coming down the tracks.
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The government is yet to pass it, but it could really go either way at this point.
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There is a substantial amount of backlash from the general public.
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And would you believe that one of our biggest newspapers was actually writing submissions
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to the government, urging them to implement it?
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They were on the side of the censorship law, which to me, if you're a journalist who speaks
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and thinks for a living, and that's your job, words, or your profession, then you supporting
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a hate speech law is a bit like a butcher supporting a ban on meat.
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You're literally shooting yourself in the foot, even aside from the moral questions that that
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would raise as to, is it right for the government to be regulating what people can say and think?
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Just from a self-preservation perspective, you would expect the media to be leading the
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But at this press event, which just took place recently, I was the only journalist in the
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And I don't think that's because I'm special or I'm Superman.
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I just think there's a critical dereliction of duty on the part of the press here.
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I mean, one of the things that the CEO of the organization said was, he goes, oh, yeah,
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well, there was a study done and about 50-something countries were examined during the course of
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this research, and they found that there was misinformation during their election.
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OK, well, first of all, what are the 50 countries?
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I mean, there's hundreds of countries in the world, so that's not meaningful in and of itself
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if these are all in parts of the world where democracy is not particularly their strong
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And also, what kind of disinformation, what impact did it have?
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Like, you know, every single election in the history of humanity has had somebody talking
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What I would want to know is, did any of this disinformation actually have a tangible impact
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Can you show me an election in the Western world that was won on the basis of lies?
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I mean, if anything, you could say that, for example, here in Ireland, we have a coalition
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government of several different political parties.
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And one of the parties, the leader of this party, said he would under no circumstances
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And then he did exactly that as soon as he was elected.
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He said that literally a couple of weeks before the election.
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So I'd like to know, does that count as electoral misinformation?
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I mean, there's probably people who voted for him and his party on the basis of that promise,
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which didn't even last a few weeks after everybody's votes had been cast.
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But when I asked the electoral commission via email, would something like that count as
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misinformation, they refused to say, which I think kind of says it all as to what sort
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Well, every single politician deals in misinformation because every single politician does not have
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all of the information and has an opinion and makes a conclusion, just like every other
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The idea and that and the most astonishing thing was the judge there, that lady who said,
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We're all going to have to become philosophers.
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She was embracing her role as the person to whom all Irish people would delegate their faculties.
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The whole point of getting it out of the hands of experts and giving it back to the people
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is because the whole system, including the judge, as if she has some unique insight into humanity,
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as if she has some unique brain and heart and moral code and scientific knowledge that no other
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people have, that she has more wisdom than the wisdom of the people.
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I'm just blown away by this, but I got a question for you.
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I was jealous of your ability to put those questions because in Canada, journalists like
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I think some of them work at Rebel News are simply no longer allowed to attend government
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press conferences because the questions you asked, you asked them very politely and they
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Over here, those questions would either yield complete fog, like a fog machine with just
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And if someone kept asking prickly questions, they would find themselves disinvited to press
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You're not the first gripped journalist I've seen put really good questions to power.
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I don't want to tempt fate by asking, but how is it that you're allowed to do that?
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Well, we joined last year the Press Council of Ireland, which is like a big kind of media
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And so that gave sort of a strength in numbers, I think, that while the government isn't obliged
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by law to let us attend press conferences, if they wanted to, they could disinvite us tomorrow.
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I think that it would be very difficult for them and it would cause more problems than
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I think they've probably made a calculation and said, look, it's better, it's less dramatic
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if we just let them do their thing and, you know, grin and bear it.
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And I think that, you know, obviously being polite, being respectful, I always shake ministers'
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hands, refer to them by their proper title and so on.
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Make sure to comport myself with decorum, that kind of thing is, of course, I don't know
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Maybe you guys are a little bit more, as in the government, are a little bit more capricious.
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But at least here, my thinking is, obviously, one, you want to be a polite person in general,
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but two, you don't want to give them any excuse that they could say, oh, well, we're kicking
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him out because he's belligerent, not because we don't like his questions, you know, whereas
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now it could only be because they're not happy with the line of questioning, because
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Well, Ben, I'll tell you, the actual reason we're kept out of Parliament is because access
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to our Parliament is controlled by the Parliamentary Press Gallery, which is other reporters.
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And they are granted their power, delegated to them by the Speaker of the House.
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So it's actually our fellow journalists, our competitors, you might say, who have blocked
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us in the first instance, and they're given legal immunity because they are under the protection
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So it's actually a merger between the politicians and other journalists to keep us out.
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And I don't mean to be talking about us, but I want to ask you, how do other reporters in
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And I know this is turning into an interview about Gript, not just your questions, but I'm
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Do other journalists, do they harumph when they, oh, there's Gript again?
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Do they say, are they, is there what I call a media party?
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Is, are the journalists in Ireland part of the regime?
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Or do they maybe even admire your critical questions?
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I think there's a, there's a couple of them, obviously.
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I mean, everybody knows that the press skews left in the Western world and that's just the
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So I don't think many of them agree with us probably on a broad swath of issues, but I
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do think there's a level of respect and it wasn't there at the beginning when we first
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I remember a couple of years ago, we broke a big story and one of the other papers kind
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of had to give us credit for it because it was just too big to ignore.
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So they had to say, their way of kind of fobbing us off and dismissing us was saying, the story
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came from Gript, a right-wing blog, and that was sort of their subtle distos.
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Now, when I go to these things, they're friendly.
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The other day we had audio issues with one of our videos and a journalist from another
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mainstream publication agreed to send me her audio to help me out, you know?
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So I think it's gotten to the point where they've sort of accepted we're part of the media ecosystem
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and that even though they might not like it all the time and they don't agree with us on
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certain issues, the fact of the matter is, you know, we are here to stay and we speak for
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That's sort of what I try to do when I'm at these things is to ask the question that
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ordinary people on the street who aren't convinced about all of this woke direction that society
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is going, I want to ask what those people are thinking, you know, because so often those
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questions just never get asked or addressed by anybody.
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So I'm trying to be sort of a representative for that section of the public in the actual room.
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And I hope you remain in the fray, in the arena.
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I mean, we still manage to do creditable journalism from the outside.
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In fact, in Canada, like I say, politicians are often fog machines.
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You can put a great question, but you just hear blather.
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You know, it's of no use to put a good question because they don't actually answer them.
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And I'm glad that GRIPT is growing and is having a success.
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This is a question that Matt Walsh of Daily Wire has perfected.
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There's something so stupid only a PhD would believe them.
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It's appalling as a woman and a woman as a female sports minister that's trying to promote women in sport.
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Minister, an article in the Irish Times this week by Pat Leahy outlined some fears within government
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that the so-called women in the home referendum might raise some uncomfortable questions for politicians.
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For example, how do you define a family and what is a woman in the context of the gender debate?
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So on foot of that article, I'm just wondering, what is a woman in your view?
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This is something that the government are discussing, Ben.
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It's very important that we get that wording correct.
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So in relation to the actual wording of the referendum, I should hope that we'd come to agreement on that wording in the coming weeks.
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It's something that I advocated for when I was chair of the Women's Caucus, that this would lead to a referendum.
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But do you have a definition of what you referred earlier to being proud of being a female sport minister
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and how important it is to promote women in sport and so on?
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So I'm just wondering, do you have a personal definition of what a woman means?
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I think, you know, the question is not relevant to the referendum itself
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because as in the issue that is pressing at the minute in relation to the exact wording of a referendum
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and having the referendum is absolutely essential for us in Ireland.
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You know, if there's a referendum on a women's issue and if you're the minister of women's sport
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but you refuse to answer what a woman is, that sort of answers it, doesn't it?
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I mean, here in Canada, in the United States, you have biological men just crushing female athletes.
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And with the approval, in fact, sometimes the support of born women,
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I think that's an astonishing evasion, but better than some of the attempts we've seen lately to answer that question.
00:28:29.740
Yeah, I was kind of amazed by the whole thing because what my follow-up was going to be
00:28:35.460
before her press secretary jumped in and quickly went on to the next person
1.00
00:28:39.540
and said, like, we need to put the kibosh on this right now because he could tell which way it was going.
00:28:44.380
Because the referendum, I'm not going to bore people by going into detail,
00:28:47.360
but long story short, there's a clause in the Irish Constitution which says that, you know,
00:28:52.260
women have a very important role in society as mothers and homemakers.
0.95
00:28:56.780
And so no woman should be forced by economic necessity to have to work,
1.00
00:29:01.980
that the state should support women if they want to stay at home and be a stay-at-home mom,
00:29:10.120
And there was a push recently to get rid of this from the Constitution
00:29:15.800
Basically, the government's position is that it's almost like you're saying,
00:29:20.660
oh, women belong in the kitchen and they should stay home,
1.00
00:29:22.900
which is really not what it's saying if you read the actual text of it.
00:29:28.600
So naturally enough, if you're going to have a referendum on the role of women in society
00:29:34.520
and what is the proper role that women should fulfill,
1.00
00:29:38.180
you're probably going to want to know what a woman is.
1.00
00:29:40.500
So I thought it would be a pretty reasonable question.
00:29:42.940
And apparently, according to the minister, that's not relevant at all.
00:29:46.860
We're going to have legislation to remove a word from the Constitution
00:29:53.300
I read that Irish Constitution recently when I was going through some of the hate speech laws.
00:29:58.200
And it's quite incredible to see that hardwired right into the basic law of Ireland,
00:30:06.700
And I thought it was actually beautiful and poetic.
00:30:14.620
And I don't know, that's something that has to be ripped out, I guess.
00:30:23.880
And as you can see, I'm a super fan of gripped.ie.
00:30:28.080
And folks, if you want a news source, I mean, you might think you have no connection to Ireland.
00:30:34.400
But the issues they're facing are the same issues we're facing.
00:30:38.220
And the battles they're fighting are the same battles we're fighting.
00:30:43.720
And I see them having some of the same hallmarks that Rebel News does.
00:30:47.940
I think they're slightly better behaved, which, as we've heard from Ben.
00:31:24.640
I don't even know what that word gripped means.
00:31:45.100
And they're interested in a lot of the same things we are, including freedom.
00:31:50.600
And he made me chuckle when he said he's been watching me since he was in high school.
00:31:54.860
I thought he looked a little more grown up than that.
00:31:56.640
But maybe he's maybe he's pretty young or maybe I'm just getting old.
00:32:00.080
But I like him and I want to do more things with gripped.
00:32:03.080
I want to interview their journalists when they have interesting stories.
00:32:08.040
I don't think we'd ever be in a position where we would have a full-time reporter in Ireland.
00:32:14.260
But maybe we can have some sort of friendly partnership with gripped.
00:32:20.700
Until next time, on behalf of all of us here at Rebel World Headquarters.