EZRA LEVANT ｜ Liberals push Nazi symbol ban to distract from the real problem
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Summary
Bill C-9, the Combating Hate Act, is a bill that would ban the use of Nazi symbols in public spaces in Canada. Is it possible to change someone's feelings just by passing a law? I'll take you through it, line by line.
Transcript
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Hello, my friends. I want to take you through Bill C-9. It's a combating hate bill. Really?
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Is that possible even to change someone's feelings? Hate's a human feeling, an emotion.
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Can you change someone's feelings just by passing a law? I'll take you through it line by line.
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But first, let me invite you to become a subscriber to Rebel News Plus. That's the
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video version of this podcast. Just go to rebelnewsplus.com, click subscribe, eight bucks a month.
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You get all this video content, but also the satisfaction of keeping Rebel News strong because
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we take no government money and it shows. Tonight, the liberals won't do anything about pro-Hamas
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protesters harassing Jews in residential neighborhoods. So they've announced a bill to
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ban German Nazi symbols to distract you. It's November 25th, and this is the Ezra Levant Show.
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I was really worried about the liberals' online censorship law in the last parliament called
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the Online Harms Act. I've seen what it's been doing in other countries that have similar laws
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like the UK. That Canadian law was absolutely on track to be passed and enacted. The liberals,
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the NDP and the bloc, all supported the bills. So it was a mathematical certainty. But then the
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collapse of the Trudeau government and the election had the effect of canceling all bills in parliament
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that hadn't been passed yet. So that was saved by the bell. So the Online Harms Act itself has not yet
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been reintroduced, at least according to the parliamentary website, which is pretty detailed. But other bills
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have that same censorship content in it. I tell you, they're obsessed with censorship. The liberal
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government puts a higher premium on censoring Canadian citizens than on pretty much any other
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policy. Bill C-2, for example, we talked about it in passing before, they would allow Canada Post to open
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any letter or package without a search warrant. I'm sorry, that's crazy. Let me focus on Bill C-9,
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which the liberals call the Combating Hate Act. Now, let me stop you right there. Hate is a human
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emotion. You can no more tell someone not to feel an emotion that they are feeling than you can command
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someone to feel an emotion that they aren't feeling. It's just not how people work. It's not how emotions
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work. If all it took was to pass a law, we'd have passed the Everyone Love Each Other Act a long time
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ago and we'd be done. People don't work that way. But the good thing is we don't have to command people
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to feel a certain way because what really matters is what people do with their feelings. You can use
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a feeling of hatred or anger as fuel to, I don't know, inspire your fight for peaceful change.
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You can be motivated by love or by hate or by frustration or by whatever. As long as you keep
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it positive, constructive, that's a good thing. I think this idea that the state gets to tell you
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what you can or can't feel is inherently dangerous. And of course, it's authoritarian
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and invasive of your privacy. What's in your heart is up to you. It's what you do with your hands that's
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more relevant. And that's right there in the title of the bill. They are going to combat your feelings.
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That's not going to work, is it? Now, by the way, there absolutely has been an explosion of hate in
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Canada over the past two years and more generally over the past decade. Part of it is the woke left, often
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white, old stock Canadians, university students, leftists in general, who have been taught critical
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race theory. And that white men are oppressors and Jews are oppressors. At least Israel is.
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But I think it's pretty clear just by watching what's going on on the streets in the last two years
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in Toronto and Montreal and Mississauga and Ottawa and even in Calgary and Vancouver,
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the bulk of the overt hate, the anti-Semitic hate in Canada, it's imported from Muslim countries. I'm
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sorry to be blunt about it. It just is. A recent study showed that 96% of people in Indonesia were
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anti-Semitic. And that's quite something, given that there are only about 200 Jews in the entire
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country. It's less than one in a million people there are Jews, but they all hate Jews. 97% of people in
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Kuwait, 97% of people in the West Bank and Gaza, they hate Jews. So if you bring in
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thousands, hundreds of thousands of people from these countries, why would it be a surprise that
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they have brought with them an ancient hatred? If you really wanted to stop hate, the human emotion,
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frankly, the way to do it would be not to try and rewire Canadians' feelings, but to stop the mass
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importation of people who have a profound cultural hatred towards Jews, in many cases towards Christians,
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towards the West in general. If you were really trying to stop hate, don't bring it in.
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But back to the bill. Let's go through it. It's only 10 pages long. Let me take you through it.
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Section one is just the name of the bill. Section two is interesting. It's called
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Willful Promotion of Hatred, Terrorism and Hate Symbols.
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Everyone commits an offense who willfully promotes hatred against any identifiable group
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by displaying in a public place, A, a symbol that is principally used by or principally associated with
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a listed entity as defined in subsection 83.01. So what is that list? Well, it refers to the designated
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terrorist groups in Canada. You can see the entire list here. There's a few exceptions to the rule, but it's
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pretty much all Muslim terrorist groups. You can see that Canada has added narco terrorists at the
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request of Donald Trump earlier this year, but it's pretty much a bunch of Muslim terrorist groups.
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So my read of this law is that flying the flag of a terrorist group would now become a crime in Canada.
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Now I'm skeptical. Police, especially in big cities like Montreal and Toronto, have been ordered not to
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lay charges against pro-Hamas activists for other crimes like assault, harassment, trespass, uttering
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threats, or even just traffic offenses. I mean, compare the lack of enforcement against pro-Hamas
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extremists to the over-enforcement against peaceful truckers. To me, the craziest moment was that
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when the pro-Hamas extremists in my own neighborhood literally reenacted a scene involving a mannequin
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that was supposed to look like the former head of Hamas in the Gaza Strip, the Hamas terrorist Yahya
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Sinwar. In a Jewish neighborhood, they reenacted his last moments while blocking Jews on the sidewalk
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and screaming at Jews through a loudspeaker. Yeah, pretty sure that if assault charges aren't filed
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against Hamas protesters, flying a flag charges won't either. But we'll see. Of course, terrorist
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supporters can move faster than the law. In Canada and around the West, Hamas supporters have made up
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two new symbols. Believe it or not, one is a watermelon slice. So that's the symbol for Hamas and for,
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you know, attacking Israel. It's pretty tough to ban a watermelon image. And for some reason, Hamas
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supporters, you know, wear the the watermelon slice. Here's an employee of Flair Airlines wearing the Hamas
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watermelon. Always a good feeling to know that a terrorist supporter works for a Canadian airline. Yikes.
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And they also use the upside down red triangle, which unfortunately looks like the Canadian tire symbol.
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It's a nod to Hamas propaganda videos where that red triangle indicates Hamas trying to kill someone.
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It's the targeting. Now, I've seen a few terrorist flags flying in Canada, for sure. And you see some
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crazy things out there. Here's David Menzies interviewing a delightful young lady who happens
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to be a terrorist supporter who was wearing machine gun earrings in Mississauga. But look,
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the the problem in Canada really isn't with the flag or with earrings or with symbols, is it?
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It's with the law breaking. And the law breaking and the symbols comes from
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people that if you bring in two million or three million people to Canada who hate Jews, who hate
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Christians, who hate the West. Look, earrings are the least of it. Flags are the least of it. The primary
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problem. The root of the problem is mass immigration. It's not the secondary issues, really.
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Secondary issues like the police being terrified to do anything about this. It's all coming back to
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the primary problem. The flag is not the problem. It's the people who would hold the flag. But let's
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keep moving. I want to go through the bill. You'll see that in addition to terrorist symbols being added,
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so are the old Nazi symbols, or at least a couple of them. Let me read. The Nazi Hockenkreutz, also known
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as the Nazi swastika, or the Nazi double Sigrun, also known as the SS bolts, or a symbol that so
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nearly resembles a symbol described in paragraph A or B that is likely to be confused with that symbol.
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So they're banning, basically, the swastika and the SS symbol. Now, I don't like Nazi flags or symbols.
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Again, there are plenty more, by the way. If you ban those, there's a Nazi symbol of the Black Sun,
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and there's a skull called the Totenkopf. Believe me, the Nazis had plenty of symbols. I don't think
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banning those symbols is going to change someone's mind. It's sort of like telling someone to shut up in
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an argument. Even if they do shut up, you haven't changed their mind. The primary problem remains.
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By the way, the number one users of Nazi symbols in Canada are pro-Hamas protesters. I haven't seen
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this many swastikas in my entire life combined as I have at a single one of these pro-Hamas marches.
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They bring swastikas every weekend to their anti-Israel protests, but not to fly in their own
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name. They're smarter than that. They fly the swastika to accuse the Jews of being Nazis.
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I would expect that they would challenge this law on constitutional grounds or challenge the
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use of it against them by claiming, no, no, no, we don't support the Nazis. We're accusing the
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Jews of supporting Nazis. That's why we have the swastika. Mark my words they're going to say that.
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By the way, that offense of showing those symbols comes with a maximum two-year sentence. But look at the
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defenses. This is tailor-made for the pro-Hamas protesters. This lists the defenses to this
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banning of the symbols. No person shall be convicted of an offense under subsection 2.2
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a if the display of the symbol was for a legitimate purpose, including a legitimate purpose related to
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journalism, religion, education, or art that is not contrary to the public interest, or b if in good
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faith the display of the symbol was intended to point out for the purpose of removal matters
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producing or tending to produce feelings of hatred towards an identifiable group in Canada. Let me
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translate into plain English. Absolutely that will be used as an argument by Hamas supporters that they
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were flying the Nazi flags not as self-identification but as accusations against the Jews to reveal what the
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Jewish Nazis are doing. That's what they say. Of course that would say that in a court of law and according
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to the bill that would be a defense. Look, you cannot use the law to change a feeling in someone's heart.
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If you're serious about stopping hatred, you pretty much have to do that in your immigration policy,
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not in your after-the-fact police charges. And that's why I'm worried about this law because I 100% know
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who is going to actually be targeted by it. You might see one or two token charges against terrorist
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flag flyers, maybe. Maybe one a year. Though I haven't seen any charges for terrorism lately,
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even though synagogues and Jewish schools are vandalized so often it doesn't even make the news
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anymore. I mean, look at this story. Police investigating after North York synagogue vandalized
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for 10th time. Yeah, that's just what police and politicians consider acceptable in Canada now.
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That's the new normal in Canada now. No charges. I mean, 10 attacks on this synagogue? If police cared,
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surely they'd set up a camera of some sort or even actually stake it out. But they don't really care,
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do they? I'll keep moving. The new law defines hatred, which is interesting. They say hatred
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means the emotion that involves detestation or vilification and that is stronger than disdain
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or dislike. All right. Okay. So again, we're back to regulating emotions now. Funny, whenever some
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anti-Semitic criminal gets arrested, some terrorist, they're never called hate criminals, are they?
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They're always called mentally ill, aren't they? All right. Back to the bill. They've revived the
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online harms act proposal of having a standalone hate crime. This is actually the worst part of the bill.
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Quote, everyone who commits an offense referred to in this section as the included offense under this
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act or any act of parliament, if the commission of the included offense is motivated
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by hatred based on race, national or ethnic origin, language, color, religion, sex, age,
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mental or physical disability, sexual orientation or gender identity or expression,
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is guilty of an indictable offense and liable to punishment provided for in subsection five,
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or guilty of an offense punishable on summary conviction. You could be, if you're charged with
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any law in the country, if you feel hate in your heart at the same time, you can be also charged
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under this standalone hate crime, including if you disagree with or an antagonistic to someone's
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gender identity. Gee, I wonder who they're going to use this against. And here's the penalty.
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Everyone who is found guilty of an indictable offense under subsection one is liable to a term of
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imprisonment of not more than, and then they have this sort of chart. Depends on the original offense.
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It could be five years. It could be 10 years. It could be 14 years or absolutely incredible.
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If the life, if the maximum term of imprisonment for the included offense
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is 14 years or more, up to life in prison, just for the feelings you have in your heart,
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this is a different offense than whatever crime you may commit.
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You don't get life in prison even for murder in Canada, I don't think. But you'll get life in prison
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for having very strong feelings of detestation. That shows you the priorities of this government,
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doesn't it? All right, next section of the bill. Every person commits an offense who engages in
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any conduct with the intent to provoke a state of fear in a person in order to impede their access
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to a building or structure or part of a building or structure that's primarily used for religious
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worship or by an identifiable group as defined in subsection 318.4, for administrative, social,
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cultural, or sports activities or events, as an educational institution, including a daycare center,
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or as a residence for seniors or a cemetery. So this is basically designed to stop pro-hammas extremists
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from standing outside synagogues and harassing Jews and shouting at them and blocking them at
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synagogues or other Jewish places. That is the only thing that's been happening in Canada. That has
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never happened to a mosque in Canada. I've never heard of it happen to a church, but it happens routinely
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to synagogues in Canada with no consequence, by the way. Here's one of the worst of these about a year
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Go to the other side! No, we're not in Gaza. We're not under Sharia law, sir. Go to the other side!
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They have every right to protest. They could do it at a peaceful place like City Hall, but not in front
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We are here because this place of worship has chosen to make for a venue, a real estate
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But here's the thing. Hassling people at a synagogue or church or mosque, it's already illegal. It's been
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in the criminal code for decades. It's just that the police refuse to lay any charges.
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The law is, I remember it off by heart because I remember talking about it so much during
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COVID times, section 176 too. Everyone who willfully disturbs or interrupts an assemblage of persons
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met for religious worship or for a moral, social or benevolent purpose is guilty of an offense.
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I mean, it couldn't be clear if you hassle a church or synagogue, that's against the law.
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A year or so ago, I asked Ontario Solicitor General, who's in charge of police and prosecutions,
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I said, why haven't you done this? Now, he happens to be Jewish himself, by the way.
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Right. Here's how he answered that question. How come there were no charges under section 176 to
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the criminal code besetting a house of worship when all those protesters were outside the Bayat
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Well, it's a question that you're going to have to ask the York Regional Police or the Attorney General.
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I'm here because I'm not going to see my community intimidated.
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I speak out all the time in support of our Jewish community. I'm not afraid to wear my kippah.
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I'm not afraid to go to synagogue every every Sabbath, every Shabbat. And I'm going to do
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everything that I can to stand up for our inherent right to live safely in our own homes and communities.
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And I'm not going to stop everything short of prosecuting them, though, right? I mean,
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the U of T remains encamped with an illegal encampment. You're very good on Twitter,
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but have you actually done any prosecutions? Well, again, this is something that you have
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to speak to the Attorney General. He's your colleague. You're in the government. You're on
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the inside. No, what I can tell you is I'm working every day to ensure that our legislation,
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that our regulations are adhered to. I'm standing up with my community. I've been 34 weeks almost every
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single week to the rally of Bathurst and Shepherd in support of remembering the hostages who have been
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held against their will in captivity in Gaza. And it's not acceptable. And that's exactly and that's
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exactly why it obviously is acceptable since you're not prosecuting it. You have condoned it.
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You've created a new normal where people can engage in low level, permanent anti-Semitic crimes,
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assault, threats, mischief, because you guys don't prosecute. But there you are on Twitter,
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though. So congrats for that. It's important that the Jewish community
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sees a person from their own community in the Ontario legislature standing up against hate
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every single day who has the support of a Premier who has called it out. Where are the other levels
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of government today who exercise the same voice that Premier Ford does that we will not accept
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anti-Semitism? We have accepted it. Where's the prosecution? Again, this is something you could
00:20:45.900
ask Minister Varani. You can ask the Prime Minister. The province. The province prosecutes. The province
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prosecutes. Better save your boss. So yeah, a duplicate law. If we don't enforce the first law,
00:21:00.700
why would we enforce the second law? Police, prosecutors. There's a 10-year term associated
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with it. But so what? Why would it be used if the replica law isn't being used now? And look at this.
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Exception. No person is guilty of an offense under subsection 2 by reason only that they attend at or
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near or approach a building or structure referred to in paragraph 1a or a cemetery for purpose only of
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obtaining or communicating information. Got it. So again, these Hamas supporters will absolutely claim
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that they were there to communicate information, namely that they think Jews are the new Nazis,
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that Hamas is legitimate, that Israel should be cleared from the river to the sea, that the Intifada
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race riots should be made international. These are the things they say with complete impunity now.
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And if this last section says that they're merely communicating to those Jews how odious they are,
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no problem. So what does this law really do? What is it really about?
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I suppose it is new in that it bans people from flying terrorist flags. Do you really think that's
00:22:07.020
going to be enforced? I don't. It bans Nazi flags, but you saw the wrinkle here only for actual Nazis.
00:22:15.100
Palestinians, pro-Hamas activists, can still use the Nazi flag to accuse Jews of being Nazis. So my reading
00:22:25.660
of this law is if you actually support Nazism, you cannot use the Nazi swastika. But if you're accusing
00:22:33.820
the Jews of being Nazis, you can fly the Nazi flags. That's permitted. Hamas supporters cannot
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intimidate Jewish synagogues. All right. But again, the law already says that, but it is never enforced.
00:22:47.260
And if it's never enforced, and if it is ever enforced, the Hamas protesters can simply say,
00:22:52.780
we were just communicating to the Jews inside. They're going to win that in the court.
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So the only real thing here is the new standalone hate crime punishable by up to life in prison.
00:23:05.420
That's really the only new thing here. And who do you think is more likely for that to be used against?
00:23:13.580
Hamas supporters or some Canadian trucker who irritates the prime minister?
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Whenever I go to Europe, one of the things on my mind is the Islamification of society. When I was in
00:23:36.940
Birmingham a couple of weeks ago to see what that town was like when a Jewish-Israeli football team
00:23:43.260
came to town, it was sort of incredible. Before the game, I had to find a bank machine and I went to
00:23:50.140
about four of them before I found one in the city that worked. And in each of the places I went,
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just in a neighborhood, I thought, oh, I'm in the Muslim neighborhood. And after my fourth ATM visit,
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I realized that Birmingham is the Muslim neighborhood of Birmingham. It's almost a majority
00:24:08.940
of the city. Now, of course, thank God, most Muslims are not terrorists. They're just regular people
00:24:14.060
going about their lives. But there is a new radicalism I see in the UK, especially in parts
00:24:20.060
like Birmingham, where there's a critical mass of Muslim voters. And instead of just voting for a pro-Islam
00:24:26.300
labor party, they're actually electing Islamic candidates running in the last election on the
00:24:32.140
Lend Gaza your vote ticket. It's quite extraordinary to see Islamism grow and in some areas be so dominant
00:24:40.220
that it can sustain its own movement. Quite something to see. If I was one of the handful
00:24:45.500
of Jews left in Birmingham, I'd be making plans to get out, if not just the city, then frankly,
00:24:50.700
maybe the country in general. I see something less progress, but on the same trajectory when I'm in
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Ireland, when I'm in the Netherlands, in some parts of Amsterdam, when I'm in Sweden, in Malmo, when I'm
00:25:03.740
in France, in places like Marseille, it's the same trend. America is not as progressed in this trend,
00:25:11.580
but there is a radicalism that is coming to that country. Of course, it has suffered some of the worst
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terrorist attacks, 9-11 being the one that is the most obvious. But there is a bit of a reaction to it.
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It's as if the rest of the world has been some sort of an alarm. For example, about a week ago,
00:25:29.580
the governor of Texas, Governor Greg Abbott, designated not only the Muslim Brotherhood, but
00:25:35.580
CARE, the Council of American Islam Relations, if I got the acronym right. And by the way, we have
00:25:42.860
a branch of that in Canada called the National Council of Canadian Muslims, ANCCM. So the governor of
00:25:50.060
the state of Texas, I think that's the second or third largest state in America, deeming them a
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terrorist group. And just yesterday, Donald Trump saying that the Muslim Brotherhood itself, at least
00:26:01.020
certain branches of it, are now declared a terrorist group. That's a massive change. We'll take a lot of
00:26:06.940
momentum out of the Islamification of America, put a lot of fundraisers and activists on the back foot.
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What does all this mean? Well, I think there's one person who probably follows us more closely
00:26:17.820
than most. His name is Sam Westrop. He's the director of Islamist Watch, a project of the
00:26:24.140
Middle East Forum. And he joins us now from Fort Worth, Texas. Sam, nice to see you. Thanks for taking
00:26:29.900
the time. Well, thank you for having me. It's an interesting moment in the news for my subject.
00:26:35.020
So I'm glad to talk about it. Yeah. Now, first of all, did I get my recitation of facts correct?
00:26:40.620
What exactly did the governor of Texas ban and what is his ability to ban things? I mean, I don't know
00:26:48.860
the constitutional differences between a governor of a state and the president of the United States.
00:26:54.380
What did the governor of Texas do? Maybe start there and then I'll ask you a little more about
00:26:58.940
what Trump did just yesterday. So the governor of Texas, Greg Abbott, put out a declaration that
00:27:06.300
the Brotherhood, the Muslim Brotherhood and a group named the Council on American Islamic Relations or CARE,
00:27:11.740
as you mentioned, are now designated entities within the state of Texas. The actual legal implications
00:27:18.060
of this are a little hard to tell. And certainly the governor's office has said little other than this
00:27:23.980
will prohibit or at least place limits on a group like CARE's ability to own property in Texas.
00:27:32.700
So for the moment, it looks more symbolic than a practical effort. That said, the governor has
00:27:40.060
instructed the Department of Public Safety, which is the body overseeing state law enforcement in Texas,
00:27:46.700
to now investigate the Muslim Brotherhood's reach in the state. So maybe we'll see something
00:27:51.020
tangible come out of this as well. Now, accompanying all of that, the governor has also warned
00:27:57.340
that two Sharia courts or Islamic tribunals, as he calls them, are operating in North Texas against,
00:28:05.260
he claims, Texas law. So certainly, Texas politicians look ready for a fight. And they have latched onto
00:28:13.100
the Brotherhood as the most obvious target when it comes to the subject of radical Islam.
00:28:17.660
You know, this follows on the footsteps of Governor Ron DeSantis of Florida. I remember shortly
00:28:23.500
after October 7, 2023, he designated some on-campus groups that were using terrorist material. He banned
00:28:33.820
them. I think he had to walk a fine line at being America, the home of the First Amendment. It was very
00:28:40.060
interesting to see how they protected speech and criticism. Criticism of Israel was permitted,
00:28:46.380
but those who were working with actual terrorist groups using their terrorist propaganda. Those
00:28:53.740
groups were banned from Florida universities. I thought it was very interesting. And I like watching
00:29:01.420
these American governors use all the levers of power they have, because that's not been how it's been
00:29:08.860
for Republicans. Democrats use every single lever of power to get their will through. This might
00:29:16.460
be a bit of a stretch. This might be more symbolic than anything. But to me, that's great. It's a sign that,
00:29:22.860
you know, up and coming politicians in America are still willing to fight these battles.
00:29:27.900
Well, let me let me be a little negative about the Texas move, because I welcome
00:29:35.500
Governor Abbott's interest in the subject. But there is a broader question here of Islamism in the
00:29:40.380
state. The Brotherhood is not the leading Islamist group active in Texas. There are multiple Islamist
00:29:47.740
movements from multiple ethnic and ideological backgrounds that pose a threat. The Iranian regime runs
00:29:53.180
directly runs mosques down in Houston. The Salafis have entities in North Texas. The Deobandis, a very
00:30:01.660
important South Asian sect from which the Taliban emerged, has institutions all over the state. There
00:30:07.340
is a very diverse radical threat in Texas. And my worry is that when politicians latch on to names like the
00:30:15.180
Muslim Brotherhood, they hyper fixate on this entity and allow the other Islamist groups to flourish in the
00:30:21.020
background. So, yes, the focus on Islamism is good. Let's hope they take a broader view than just the
00:30:27.820
Brotherhood, not just for the sake of the Jews in the state, but for the safety of all its citizens.
00:30:34.060
These groups are indelibly tied to violence, to extremism abroad, to foreign terrorist groups abroad,
00:30:38.940
but also to radicalization here at home. And you mentioned Europe in your introduction. One of the things
00:30:45.020
the government found after years of young European Muslims rushing off to join ISIS or commit acts of
00:30:49.740
terror at home. The one thing they all had in common, they'd grown up within schools, communities, mosques
00:30:55.820
controlled by these Islamist groups. The Brotherhood is the tip of the iceberg. There's a lot to do here.
00:31:00.780
And I hope Governor Abbott follows through. You know, that's a very good point. I mean,
00:31:06.140
if it's the showiest thing and it's a big fuss, but it's not the actual problem on the ground,
00:31:12.700
then you could even say he's playing us. He's throwing us a bone in the most showy way,
00:31:19.580
which is my worry about Donald Trump's statement. Now, again, not for a second do I regret that Trump
00:31:26.220
has issued, I think it's an executive order. Yeah. Let me just read from the White House press release
00:31:33.900
here. Today, President Donald Trump signed an executive order directing the Secretary of State
00:31:40.380
and the Secretary of the Treasury to consider whether certain chapters of the Muslim Brotherhood should be
00:31:45.580
designated as foreign terrorist organizations. The terrorist, the chapters in Lebanon, Egypt and Jordan.
00:31:54.540
It mandates the Secretary of State to take action within 45 days. And the aim is to eliminate the
00:32:00.860
designated chapters, capabilities and operations, deprive them of resources and end any threat
00:32:06.780
posed to the United States. Well, it's tough to argue with that. But I've seen some critics online
00:32:13.500
who are smarter than me point out, by focusing on those three countries, Lebanon, Egypt and Jordan,
00:32:21.260
the Muslim Brotherhood is banned there already, I'm told. And this omits two of the largest
00:32:27.740
benefactors of the Muslim Brotherhood, Turkey and Qatar. And so, again, I'm happy that Trump is doing
00:32:34.780
this. I'm glad he's still fighting the good fight. But I'm worried if this isn't just, hey, look over
00:32:40.540
here while I bravely go after the weak banned chapters, pay no attention to the Qataris and the Turks over there.
00:32:49.660
Well, this is somewhat an echo of my point about Texas, right? That we're focusing
00:32:54.940
on the Brotherhood where, as we should be focusing perhaps on Turkey, Qatar, but there's others I could
00:32:59.740
add to that list. You know, Malaysia, Pakistan, the Day of Bandis, the Salafis, the Iranian regime's
00:33:05.340
proxies and so on. There's more that can be done, certainly. And as I said before, the Brotherhood is
00:33:12.300
the tip of the iceberg. But this also brings into the question, what is the Brotherhood? Is it the
00:33:19.020
Egyptian organization known as the Muslim Brotherhood, or is it every branch that a Brotherhood member has
00:33:23.820
ever founded? Is it every diaspora organization that someone sympathetic to the Brotherhood has
00:33:28.620
established? The term is used loosely. For example, the Lebanese Brotherhood, as the White House calls
00:33:34.860
it in the designation, is in fact Jama' al-Islamiyah. Sorry, al-Islamiyah. Jama' al-Islamiyah was not
00:33:41.660
founded by Brotherhood members. It was founded by people sympathetic to the Brotherhood. So does that make
00:33:46.860
it a Brotherhood group? I guess the point I'm trying to make is that we are very loose with
00:33:52.380
our definition of the Muslim Brotherhood, which is why a designation has been so difficult in the past,
00:33:58.220
because what exactly are you designating? My suggested solution to this is be explicit.
00:34:04.700
Name Qatar as an enemy of the United States. Name Turkey and its Turkish Islamist proxies as enemies of
00:34:09.980
the United States. Designate South Asian Islamist movements like Jama'ati Islami. Designate certain
00:34:16.140
Salafi and Dayabandi groups. Don't refer to them as Muslim Brotherhood offshoots or branches,
00:34:21.580
as too many commentators do. Be explicit about the Islamist networks and organizations that threaten
00:34:28.380
American and Canadian lives and interests. This is the way to proceed. Now, my final contention
00:34:35.660
with the designation. And again, I welcome the interest from the political classes on this
00:34:40.540
subject. I'm glad they're doing something. But my final contention is enforcement. Remember,
00:34:45.820
Hamas is already a designated organization in the United States. But two years since October 7th
00:34:51.500
attacks, has a single Hamas financier, charity or supporter been prosecuted in the United States
00:34:56.460
or even investigated? No. So designated organizations do not necessarily get prosecuted,
00:35:02.700
investigated or suppressed in any way. So there's a risk here. This designation again is for show
00:35:07.580
and doesn't lead for anything. Now, I'll be working very hard to make sure it does lead to something.
00:35:11.740
But, you know, those two points still stand. This is a far broader issue and it requires real
00:35:16.620
political follow up. Those are excellent points. You know, recently, Trump called to the White House a
00:35:23.420
number of journalists and activists who have been physically attacked by Antifa, including our friend Andy
00:35:30.460
and other journalists we very much respect. And it was interesting to me that at that moment,
00:35:36.780
Trump issued an executive order naming Antifa as a terrorist group. And the exact same questions
00:35:43.420
came to mind because Antifa, their defenders will say, oh, it's not an organization. It's a spirit.
00:35:50.540
It's a movement. It's like hipsters. It's something you do. It's something you affiliate with.
00:35:56.140
There's no membership card. Now, there's some truth to that. There are some groups that absolutely
00:36:02.700
call themselves Antifa. And I wonder, well, what would happen if they simply changed their name?
00:36:07.660
I think that's the same thing here. If you say the Muslim Brotherhood are bad dudes. All right. Well,
00:36:12.460
what if the same people just operate under a different now? I mean, maybe there are excellent,
00:36:18.700
easy solutions to these very basic questions I'm asking. I'm sure that others have asked these
00:36:26.380
questions before me and in a smarter way. But as you point out, even if something as tangible as Hamas
00:36:33.340
has been, you know, a terrorist group for years, what steps? I mean, I mean, part of it is Trump is
00:36:39.740
dealing with Hamas in the negotiations. He's dealing with the terrorist, the former terrorist leader,
00:36:47.420
Syria. So I suppose on the one hand, you can't negotiate with someone you're killing.
00:36:52.380
But I don't know. I think you're right. I think the real test will come in six,
00:37:02.300
Yeah. Unfortunately, the refusal to prosecute Hamas has been a constant policy, a consistent
00:37:07.980
policy of the United States since 2008, since the last time it prosecuted a Hamas entity,
00:37:12.860
the Holy Land Foundation. Since that point, Hamas has not only been not prosecuted in the United
00:37:18.540
States, but many of its charities and front groups have received federal funding, have enjoyed the
00:37:22.540
partnership of government. There's a lot of evidence to suggest they're a protected source
00:37:26.780
for the US intelligence and law enforcement. And indeed, that was certainly the case in Europe as well.
00:37:31.420
Your point about the change of name, undoing a designation is very well made. In fact, there's a lot of
00:37:37.260
evidence for this in Europe. You might remember the name Anjum Chowdhury, a very prominent Salafi
00:37:45.420
Well, then you very much know him. He has simply, every time his group has been banned as a terrorist
00:37:50.380
organization by the British government, has just changed the name of his organization and reset up
00:37:54.940
under that group. You're absolutely right. The same will happen here. In fact, the same already has
00:37:59.740
happened here. The American descendants of the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood operate under entirely
00:38:05.100
different names. And they set up new organizations every day. I track hundreds of Islamist organizations
00:38:12.140
with ties to original Muslim Brotherhood founders. And every time they get in a bit of trouble,
00:38:15.820
they set up five more organizations. No, this is absolutely what's going to happen. So, as I said,
00:38:21.980
the Brotherhood is the tip of the iceberg. A far broader approach is needed. And once I see law
00:38:28.460
enforcement setting up task forces, I see prosecutions, indictments made, I see state governments and
00:38:34.700
local police start to understand the sheer enormity and extent of the threat, then I'll know that the
00:38:39.980
political class is truly paying attention. At the moment, this is a good first step, but we're not
00:38:45.900
there yet. Yeah. Hey, I got one question for you. In the past, individual victims of terrorist groups
00:38:54.220
have hired lawyers and made private lawsuits in New York or other places and have won victories.
00:39:03.900
Obviously, the terrorists do not show up in court to defend. So, you're sort of shooting on an open
00:39:11.260
net. But even so, the judges put them through the paces, put them to proof of damages. So, you have
00:39:16.620
these judgments and then you try and execute this judgment against a bank account somewhere or some
00:39:23.900
property somewhere. Has that ever been successful in the past? Because maybe
00:39:29.100
maybe at least these designations gives you something to go before a judge and say, hey,
00:39:36.620
judge, this is a terrorist group. Here's proof that this terrorist group harmed my specific clients.
00:39:43.740
Now let me collect from whatever Swiss bank account or I don't know. Has that ever worked before? I
00:39:53.260
don't know how those cases ended. And I don't know if they could be done again.
00:39:57.180
Unless the defendant was a state with possible assets to seize, it has not worked in the past.
00:40:06.300
However, there are efforts going on at the moment to persuade US courts that certain Islamist
00:40:11.980
organizations are alter egos of foreign terrorists and foreign terrorist proxies. And should those efforts
00:40:18.700
be successful, we may well see Islamist groups in the US, uh, uh, financially punished by virtue of
00:40:26.620
these designations and these alter ego, uh, attempts in courts, you know, and finally satisfy the demands
00:40:32.220
of some of these, these court cases. Um, look, this, this, this speaks as to the big problem of the
00:40:38.140
follow-up from the designation. You know, it's one thing saying the Muslim Brotherhood is banned. Well,
00:40:41.980
even if you take those groups in the US, Islam is seen most closely aligned with the Brotherhood.
00:40:46.540
Now you have to prove they are part of the Brotherhood. And remember, the Egyptian Brotherhood is not
00:40:50.540
only no longer in control of a global movement anymore, but itself is split into many parts.
00:40:55.100
It collapsed in Egypt about 10 years ago. So there's a, there's a leadership in Istanbul,
00:40:58.780
a leadership in Doha, some remnants in London, all competing with each other for control.
00:41:03.100
So who is, who are the US Islamists reporting to? If they are at all, they're probably not. So
00:41:09.180
proving amid the chaos that these groups in the United States, such as CARE and such
00:41:15.260
as the dozen other organizations that emerged from the Brotherhood Nexus over the past few decades,
00:41:20.220
are still connected to the groups in the Middle East that have been designated, is a whole other
00:41:25.500
barrier to cross. I would much rather see the government take steps to start investigating
00:41:32.860
the American organizations directly. Remember, many of these groups, including CARE,
00:41:36.780
were named as unindicted co-conspirators. And a massive terrorist financing case in 2008,
00:41:41.420
of the Holy Land Foundation, Hamas Front Group. There is good legal reason for American law enforcement
00:41:46.940
to be investigating already. We don't need a designation for them to do that. Just as we
00:41:51.020
don't need a designation to start investigating Hamas, which is already designated under US law.
00:41:56.780
So it really takes political will and law enforcement savvy and guts to change the current status quo.
00:42:06.220
So yeah, this current designation, unless there's the follow up, I know I'm sounding like a broken
00:42:10.940
record here, but unless there's follow up, it may lead to nothing.
00:42:15.900
Well, it's a very interesting turn of events. And even if it's just symbolic, I think there is some
00:42:20.540
value in it. It's reminding Americans of the fact that they are under threat, that there are still bad
00:42:26.540
guys in the world. And in a way, it's a slightly conflicting message with Trump,
00:42:31.420
you know, calling the Qataris great partners in the negotiation. And like, I mean, I guess that's
00:42:38.300
the thing about peace treaties, is you make them with your enemies. So you have to forgive a guy
00:42:43.820
for hanging out with evil people if his goal is to end a conflict. I can understand that. But
00:42:51.420
how long is that suspension of morality appropriate? We'll find out. Anyway, very interesting time.
00:42:58.540
Sam Westbrook of Islamist Watch. Great to spend some time with you. Thanks for giving us the info.
00:43:05.420
All right. Our pleasure. There he is, Sam Westbrook. And he's part of the Middle East Forum.
00:43:12.460
Hey, welcome back. Your letters to me. About the ongoing anti-Israel demonstrations in Toronto,
00:43:28.540
Claudette Viancourt says, we need ice. You're exactly right. I mean, if someone's a Canadian citizen,
00:43:35.180
they have certain tenure here. They have certain rights here. But many of these activists are
00:43:39.580
foreigners who are here as our guests. Either they're temporary foreign workers,
00:43:43.980
or they're students, or they're here on some privilege, not some right. They should absolutely
00:43:49.820
be kicked out. It would be like if in your own home, if you had a Christmas party at home,
00:43:54.780
and someone, one of your family members was being really rude and acting up.
00:43:59.100
I suppose you have to abide it. But if it was some guest, some stranger who's getting really,
00:44:03.420
kick them out. I think a self-respecting country would. Johanna DFI says, police are peacekeepers.
00:44:11.020
Not fair to put this on them. They don't come with flags in my neighborhood. Thank God. This is Canada.
00:44:16.140
Well, are police peacekeepers, or are they law enforcement officers? And what about when these
00:44:21.500
protesters engage in harassment, or assault, or uttering threats? They've done all those things.
00:44:27.020
I've seen it. And the police give them a wide berth. I think it's a political decision.
00:44:32.860
John D says, Danielle Smith is sucking up to Carney and giving him a huge PR win.
00:44:37.980
Wasn't on my bingo card. Alberta got no guarantee of a pipeline. They still have to convince the BC
00:44:43.260
NDP and communist natives to accept one. She just screwed Polyev and all of Canada.
00:44:47.900
Well, I don't think the final, you're talking about a pipeline deal. And apparently on Thursday,
00:44:52.860
Danielle Smith and Mark Carney, the prime minister are going to have an announcement.
00:44:56.140
We'll see what that announcement looks like, but I'm worried about the same things you are.
00:45:01.260
Let's see what the announcement is. Canada needs a new pipeline, needs several new pipelines.
00:45:06.860
Of course, if it's just going to be loaded up with all sorts of
00:45:10.380
graft and grift, like carbon sequestration, this and net zero, that those are things that I understand
00:45:17.420
why Brookfield would want. But it makes no sense to attach those barnacles to a Canadian deal. We'll
00:45:23.020
see. I think we'll have the news on that as soon as Thursday. That's our show for today. Until
00:45:28.460
tomorrow, on behalf of all of us here at Rebel World Headquarters, to you at home,