Rebel News Podcast - EZRA LEVANT ｜ President Biden tells Facebook to delete posts it finds “problematic”

00:00:00.000 Hello, my friends.

00:00:00.740 I tell you, I thought Canada was bad at censorship, and it is.

00:00:04.200 But the things that they're saying in the White House are terrifying, directing Facebook

00:00:09.160 to censor mean tweets and dissonant ideas on the lockdown.

00:00:13.140 It's crazy.

00:00:13.780 I'll show you a bunch of clips from Jen Psaki.

00:00:18.000 That's Joe Biden's spokesman.

00:00:19.900 But let me invite you to become a subscriber to what we call Rebel News Plus.

00:00:23.440 That's the video version of this podcast.

00:00:26.020 You get my weekly show, Sheila Gunn-Reed's show, David Menzies, Andrew Chapman.

00:00:30.000 And the satisfaction of knowing you're keeping Canada's free speech channel, that's us, alive.

00:00:35.900 Just go to rebelnews.com and click subscribe.

00:00:38.260 Thanks.

00:00:39.040 Here's to today's podcast.

00:00:44.420 You're listening to a Rebel News podcast.

00:00:54.700 Tonight, the President of the United States is telling Facebook to delete posts.

00:01:00.000 It finds problematic.

00:01:01.900 It's July 16th, and this is the Ezra Levant Show.

00:01:07.080 Why should others go to jail when you're a biggest carbon consumer I know?

00:01:10.880 There's 8,500 customers here, and you won't give them an answer.

00:01:14.920 The only thing I have to say to the government about why I publish it is because it's my bloody right to do so.

00:01:20.820 Big tech censorship is out of control.

00:01:28.560 They have a long list of things you specifically can't say.

00:01:32.460 I mean, lists very specific, very weird.

00:01:35.380 You can say that the 2016 U.S. presidential election was unfair, for example, that Hillary Clinton actually won.

00:01:44.720 But you can't say the same thing about the 2020 presidential election.

00:01:50.240 That's pretty specific, isn't it?

00:01:51.700 You can't promote ivermectin or hydroxychloroquine as remedies for COVID-19.

00:01:59.240 But you can recommend them for any other malady, even ones you make up.

00:02:05.000 You can say you're the king of the moon, and that's fine.

00:02:09.060 But if you say that a transgender athlete is a he instead of a she on Twitter,

00:02:15.420 that's called illegal misgendering, and you'll be suspended.

00:02:19.020 It's pretty extreme, but not extreme enough for Joe Biden and the Democrats in the United States,

00:02:27.340 or Justin Trudeau and the liberals and the Democrats in Canada.

00:02:30.920 Take a look at this clip from Jen Psaki, Joe Biden's spokesman in the United States.

00:02:35.640 Listen to this.

00:02:36.560 So about, I think this was a question asked before,

00:02:39.480 there's about 12 people who are producing 65% of anti-vaccine misinformation on social media platforms.

00:02:46.020 All of them remain active on Facebook, despite some even being banned on other platforms,

00:02:51.360 including Facebook, ones that Facebook owns.

00:02:54.480 Third, it's important to take faster action against harmful posts.

00:02:58.000 As you all know, information travels quite quickly on social media platforms.

00:03:02.320 Sometimes it's not accurate, and Facebook needs to move more quickly to remove harmful,

00:03:07.200 violative posts.

00:03:09.360 Posts that will be within their policies for removal often remain up for days.

00:03:12.920 That's too long.

00:03:13.760 The information spreads too quickly.

00:03:15.060 Finally, we have proposed they promote quality information sources in their feed algorithm.

00:03:21.200 Facebook has repeatedly shown that they have the leverage to promote quality information.

00:03:25.140 We've seen them effectively do this in their algorithm over low-quality information,

00:03:30.220 and they've chosen not to use it in this case.

00:03:32.600 And that's certainly an area that would have an impact.

00:03:35.220 So these are certainly the proposals.

00:03:37.340 We engage with them regularly, and they certainly understand what our asks are.

00:03:41.000 There's a lot in there.

00:03:42.080 The government is tracking 12 people that they don't like.

00:03:45.660 So they're not criminals.

00:03:47.060 They're not like on the FBI Most Wanted list.

00:03:48.920 They're not breaking the law.

00:03:50.640 They're just saying things the Democrats don't like, and the government is tracking them?

00:03:55.660 Imagine if Donald Trump or Stephen Harper had done that to liberals he didn't like.

00:03:59.480 It's not just a subject of disagreement, according to Psaki.

00:04:04.260 What they're saying is harmful, and Facebook needs to move.

00:04:08.900 So that's an instruction to Facebook.

00:04:11.120 They need to.

00:04:12.260 They just have to.

00:04:13.840 And in case that wasn't clear enough, the White House has been in constant touch with big tech companies,

00:04:19.620 making proposals, engaging with those companies to censor people they hate.

00:04:25.000 I wonder who those 12 enemies are.

00:04:27.360 And to promote quality points of view, which of course means people who agree with them.

00:04:32.700 Here's a Fox News reporter asking a question you'd think every journalist would be asking.

00:04:38.620 Are you spying on people on Facebook?

00:04:40.400 For how long has the administration been spying on people's Facebook profiles looking for vaccine misinformation?

00:04:48.740 That was quite a loaded and inaccurate question, which I would refute.

00:04:53.900 Well, Peter, first of all, as you know, we're in a regular touch with a range of media outlets.

00:04:59.840 Let me finish.

00:05:01.880 As we are in regular touch with social media platforms.

00:05:07.000 This is publicly open information, people sharing information online,

00:05:13.220 just as you are all reporting information on your news stations.

00:05:17.540 Okay, so these 12 people who you have on a list, 12 individuals,

00:05:22.760 do they know that somebody at the Surgeon General's office is going through their profile?

00:05:28.040 I'm happy to get you the citation of where that comes from.

00:05:30.980 There's no secret list.

00:05:32.380 I will tell you that these are people who are sharing information on public platforms on Facebook.

00:05:38.500 Information that is traveling is inaccurate.

00:05:41.120 I thought this part was creepy.

00:05:42.740 Saki is saying that she wants all the big tech companies to act as a cartel. 0.78

00:05:47.460 If you're banned from one, you should be banned from all of them.

00:05:50.980 She's saying the quiet part out loud.

00:05:53.280 Providing for Facebook or other platforms to measure and publicly share the impact of misinformation on their platform

00:06:00.620 and the audience it's reaching.

00:06:02.980 Also with the public, with all of you, to create robust enforcement strategies that bridge their properties

00:06:09.560 and provide transparency about rules.

00:06:11.460 You shouldn't be banned from one platform and not others for providing misinformation out there.

00:06:18.680 Another reporter from a different network asks the question, why isn't the government going harder?

00:06:24.660 Thanks, Jen.

00:06:25.740 Can you talk a little bit more about this request for tech companies to be more aggressive in policing misinformation?

00:06:32.500 Has the administration been in touch with any of these companies?

00:06:35.540 And are there any actions that the federal government can take to ensure their cooperation?

00:06:39.720 Because we've seen from the start there's not a lot of action on some of these platforms.

00:06:43.960 Sure.

00:06:44.740 Well, first, we are in regular touch with these social media platforms.

00:06:49.740 And those engagements typically happen through members of our senior staff, but also members of our COVID-19 team.

00:06:56.140 Given, as Dr. Murthy conveyed, this is a big issue of misinformation, specifically on the pandemic.

00:07:03.140 In terms of actions, Alex, that we have taken or we're working to take, I should say, from the federal government,

00:07:09.200 we've increased disinformation research and tracking within the Surgeon General's office.

00:07:14.400 We're flagging problematic posts for Facebook that spread disinformation.

00:07:19.180 So they're flagging posts for Facebook, just being helpful, I guess.

00:07:24.020 Facebook's not flagging them hard enough already.

00:07:25.740 So this is just friendly help because Facebook doesn't have enough staff, maybe.

00:07:31.120 They might be missing things.

00:07:32.400 So the White House is just helping the company do its censorship work.

00:07:35.960 Senior staff are pressuring Facebook.

00:07:37.800 But, no, they're not censoring anything themselves.

00:07:41.520 Who gave you that crazy idea?

00:07:43.420 Keep that in mind.

00:07:44.620 About things that are on Facebook, I looked this morning.

00:07:47.320 There are videos of Dr. Fauci from 2020 before anybody had a vaccine.

00:07:51.260 And he is out there saying there's no reason to be walking around with a mask.

00:07:55.320 So is the administration going to contact Facebook and ask them to take that down?

00:07:58.580 Well, first, I think what Dr. Fauci has said himself, who's been quite public out there,

00:08:03.800 is that science evolves, information evolves, and we make that available in a public way to the American people.

00:08:11.100 Exactly.

00:08:11.400 I have never seen any data to suggest that the vaccines cause infertility.

00:08:18.080 That is information that is irresponsibly traveling.

00:08:21.200 Okay.

00:08:21.440 Just one more.

00:08:22.120 Just one more.

00:08:22.700 Sorry.

00:08:23.040 Excuse me.

00:08:23.460 Just one more.

00:08:24.040 Okay.

00:08:24.240 About the science evolving, Facebook used to post, used to block people from posting that COVID may have originated for a lab.

00:08:34.160 That is something this president now admits is a possibility.

00:08:36.920 So is there any concern that things you are trying to block or have taken down might someday turn out to be...

00:08:44.260 We don't take anything down.

00:08:45.880 We don't block anything.

00:08:47.600 Facebook and any private sector company makes decisions about what information should be on their platform.

00:08:53.780 Our point is that there is information that is leading to people not taking the vaccine and people are dying as a result.

00:09:00.960 And we have a responsibility as a public health matter to raise that issue.

00:09:04.320 The responsibility we all have.

00:09:06.380 The government, media, platforms, public messengers to give accurate information.

00:09:11.440 Go ahead.

00:09:12.580 Facebook is already the world's largest censor, censoring people in almost every country.

00:09:16.460 I say almost every country because Facebook is not allowed in China or a handful of other authoritarian regimes that don't want to outsource censorship to Facebook.

00:09:24.640 They want to do it themselves.

00:09:26.820 Two billion people are censored by Facebook.

00:09:29.080 And the thing about that is you're often being censored by people in other countries who have their own illiberal authoritarian political traditions.

00:09:37.600 I mean, who is this woman? 1.00

00:09:39.360 And how is she in charge of anything you do or say here in Canada?

00:09:43.720 And what we're trying to find, of course, I think many of us were engaging in this conversation, is that middle road.

00:09:50.880 How do you moderate content?

00:09:52.240 And how do you find that balance between human rights and free speech, which is a human right, but also other human rights?

00:10:00.860 Because obviously free speech is not an absolute human right.

00:10:03.740 It has to be balanced with other human rights.

00:10:06.180 And that is what the oversight is there to do.

00:10:09.240 Until now, we have seen content moderation, as I said, from a select few in Silicon Valley.

00:10:17.640 And ultimately, Mark Zuckerberg has been moderating content.

00:10:21.140 Now we have the Oversight Board, which is a completely new invention, to do this work.

00:10:26.600 And of course, I want to say that I think this is a very, very positive new way of doing it.

00:10:32.320 That's a former Scandinavian politician, but she's now on Facebook's censorship committee, along with this failed British politician. 0.98

00:10:41.240 They're the ones who actually decided to censor Donald Trump.

00:10:44.140 They're foreign meddlers. 1.00

00:10:45.700 Speaking of foreigners, let me show you something from a left-wing Danish TV station.

00:10:49.500 This was on YouTube, by the way, but then they took it down.

00:10:52.840 Let me give you the background.

00:10:53.700 Tommy Robinson was set to go to Copenhagen for a free speech award.

00:10:57.900 And this local left-wing TV station wasn't happy about it.

00:11:00.800 But they don't like Tommy Robinson.

00:11:02.760 They think he's an intolerant extremist.

00:11:05.320 They don't tolerate intolerance.

00:11:07.380 So they were going to do a show condemning Tommy Robinson.

00:11:10.680 And they put their Facebook page, a post, asking their viewers to give them their opinion.

00:11:16.220 So if I'm not clear, they hate Tommy Robinson.

00:11:19.000 They were going to attack Tommy Robinson.

00:11:20.500 But when they simply put his name and face on their Facebook page, it was deleted by Facebook within nine minutes.

00:11:28.180 And they couldn't believe it.

00:11:29.140 They had never been censored before.

00:11:30.800 The left-wing TV station, I mean.

00:11:33.960 They just always thought that happened to the bad people like Tommy Robinson, not the good people like them.

00:11:39.400 So they called up the Facebook boss for all of Scandinavia to ask him about it.

00:11:44.640 And he actually came on the show.

00:11:45.900 And you've just got to watch a few minutes of this.

00:11:48.420 It's amazing.

00:11:48.980 I'm going to play five minutes, but you're not going to regret it.

00:11:51.620 Take a look.

00:11:52.020 Take a look.

00:12:14.240 They supported Tommy Robinson, and now Facebook is starting to announce Tommy Robinsons name.

00:12:20.240 Is this a way to handle our conversation?

00:12:23.240 I'll ask Facebook's Nordic communications chef, Peter Münster, about a moment.

00:12:44.240 Når en radikale højrefløjsaktivist Tommy Robinson talte donder om indvandring og islam, nåede hans budskaber engang bredt ud på Facebook.

00:13:02.240 Det gør de ikke længere.

00:13:04.240 I februar blev Tommy Robinson nemlig smidt af Facebook, og hans side blev lukket.

00:13:09.240 Det var ikke nok med det. På det seneste har bandlysningen fået andre konsekvenser.

00:13:14.240 På det seneste har en masse danske Facebook-brugere nemlig oplevet, at opslag er blevet fjernet til synligheden alene, fordi de omtaler Tommy Robinson.

00:13:22.240 Og det har vagt hård kritik.

00:13:25.240 Bliver vores ytringsfrihed reelt ødelagt, og hvorfor reagerer magthaverne ikke?

00:13:30.240 Spørg for eksempel nye borgerlige Slasborg og Mathisen på sin blog i Jyllandspost.

00:13:35.240 Tilsvarende spørger jurister SF'er Leif Donbæk i Ekstrabladet, om vi kan leve med, at det er en privat amerikansk virksomhed, der egenhættigt dikterer, hvorledes vi skal have en offentlig debat. 0.89

00:13:46.240 Samtidig med, at han vælger mærke, kalder Robinson en kæmpe idiot.

00:13:51.240 Efter at have delt sin klone på Facebook, er Donbæk i øvrigt netop blevet udelukket fra at lave opslag og kommentere på Facebook de næste 24 timer.

00:14:00.240 Og på sin hjemmeside skriver Trygge Frihedsselskabet i dag, at selskabet er blevet truet med at få fjernet sin Facebookside, og her til aften meddeler de så, at de er blevet blokeret fra at poste på den.

00:14:12.240 Desuden skriver formand Aya Fogh, at hun selv er blevet blokeret i 30 dage på grund af omtale af Tommy Robinson.

00:14:18.240 Ifølge Aya Fogh kommer forbuddet ikke fra Facebook selv, men, citat, fra stærke politiske kræfter, der mere eller mindre direkte lægger pres på de sociale medier, citatslut.

00:14:30.240 Den forklaring ligner Tommy Robinsons egen.

00:14:34.240 That's why I said it's good to be seen. Because I've been a completely young person from all social media, even Snapchat, Instagram.

00:14:42.240 And the maddest thing is, I've done nothing wrong. They run with these lies. They keep saying that I've promoted violence against Muslims.

00:14:50.240 Show me where. Show me one screenshot that I've done.

00:14:54.240 Peter Münster, Nordisk Kommunikationschef for Facebook.

00:14:59.240 Ham vi lige så her, Tommy Robinson. Er han så farlig, at alene det at nævne hans navn gør verden til et farligt sted?

00:15:06.240 Problemet er ikke i udgangspunktet, at man nævner hans navn. Problemet er, at han er faldet i en kategori af det, vi vurderer af hadprædikanter.

00:15:14.240 Altså folk, som primært bruger deres position i det offentlige rum til at organisere had eller til at opvinde til vold mod en minoritet.

00:15:24.240 Og det tillader vi ikke. Vi tillader ikke, at man deler hate speech, racistiske angreb.

00:15:29.240 Men vi tillader faktisk heller ikke, at folk, som har det som en væsentlig del af deres offentlige arbejde og offentlige profil, opfordrer folk til noget lignende.

00:15:40.240 Så det er en hård sanktion. Det er en hård sanktion mod ham. Ham har I udelukket.

00:15:45.240 Men det der jo så sker nu, det er, at også folk, der omtaler Tommy Robinson, får fjernet deres opslag, bliver blokeret eller bliver truet med at blive pillet helt af Facebook.

00:15:55.240 Hvordan hænger det sammen? Altså vores regler forbyder ikke, at man omtaler Tommy Robinson.

00:16:01.240 Man må godt skrive, at ham kan man ikke lide, eller at ham synes man er en IEO, som det bliver nævnt her i introen.

00:16:08.240 Og som er blevet pillet af?

00:16:10.240 Ja, og det er så et andet spørgsmål.

00:16:13.240 Men i udgangspunktet, der er det, man ikke må ifølge vores regler, det er støtte eller hylde,

00:16:18.240 eller på anden måde sådan give en repræsentation til de her hadepredikanter. 0.78

00:16:22.240 Hvad betyder det at give en repræsentation? 0.55

00:16:24.240 Jamen det betyder, at hvis vi har en politik, som betyder, at en mand som Tommy Robinson ikke må have en profil, og han heller ikke må have en side,

00:16:32.240 så går det selvfølgelig heller ikke, at han har en følgerskare, som kan være på Facebook og sige, at jeg har talt med Tommy Robinson i dag.

00:16:39.240 Han bad mig om at sige til jer alle sammen, at sådan og sådan og sådan.

00:16:42.240 Okay.

00:16:43.240 Så det har vi også en politik måde.

00:16:44.240 Jeg vil godt lige holde fast i det, du sagde, var et andet spørgsmål.

00:16:47.240 Jeg vil godt lige vise dig et opslag, som min redaktør lavede tidligere i dag.

00:16:51.240 Han skrev på Facebook, i aften skal vi i deadline lave noget om Tommy Robinson.

00:16:55.240 Hvad er den bedste artikel om Tommy Robinson, vi skal læse på redaktionen?

00:17:00.240 Der gik ni minutter, så blev det et opslag fjernet.

00:17:04.240 Er det fremmende for sådan en forståelse af et fænomen som Tommy Robinson, og muligheden for at tale om den tænkning, han repræsenterer, at sådan et opslag bliver fjernet?

00:17:14.240 Jeg vil vise dig hele videoen, men vi har ikke tid for det.

00:17:17.240 Du kan finde den ikke på YouTube.

00:17:20.240 Du må gå til en dissident-video site, som hedder Bitchute, for at finde den.

00:17:24.240 Det er worth watching in full.

00:17:25.240 This Facebook guy can't actually name anything or prove that Tommy Robinson, he can't show anything Tommy did that was promoting violence, for example.

00:17:34.240 But he still equated him with a terrorist, I'm serious.

00:17:37.240 You can only denounce Tommy Robinson on Facebook.

00:17:41.240 You can't praise him.

00:17:42.240 You can't even just say what he says.

00:17:45.240 He's literally been unpersoned.

00:17:48.240 So that's what happened.

00:17:50.240 But look at what the Facebook boss then said.

00:17:53.240 There's a secret list of people who are blacklisted, and you can't see who's on the list, and you can't appeal, and you can't get off it, and just trust us.

00:18:03.240 Hvad betyder det i det her tilfælde? 0.99

00:18:05.240 Fordi i det her tilfælde, der er der jo sådan, det er jo et retssikkerhedsspørgsmål i det omfang, at I nu er vores fælles infrastruktur for vores fælles offentlige samtale.

00:18:15.240 Så hvor kan enten dem, der bliver dømt ude, eller også journalister, som skal stille magthæver til ansvar, hvor kan vi gå efter i søvnene i sådan en situation?

00:18:25.240 Vi er ikke platformen for den offentlige samtale. Vi er én platform, som supplerer den offentlige samtale, der har været i mange år.

00:18:33.240 Men fra 16 til 24-årige, for en fjerdedel af dem er i de sociale medier i hvert fald, den eneste platform, de tilgår nyheder for.

00:18:42.240 Ja, og det er et stort ansvar.

00:18:44.240 Det er jo nærmest at være platformen.

00:18:46.240 Det er noget, vi tager meget alvorligt.

00:18:48.240 Så hvor kan man gå efter i søvnene?

00:18:50.240 Altså, som sagt, den her konkrete liste er ikke offentlig.

00:18:54.240 Og det er en liste over dem, der er helt udelukket som Tommy Robinson?

00:18:57.240 Det er en liste over de personer, hvor vi ud over vores almindelige regler imod hate speech, faktisk heller ikke tillader folk at hylde eller støtte dem.

00:19:08.240 Kan man se den liste?

00:19:09.240 Nej, det kan man ikke.

00:19:10.240 Hvor langt er den?

00:19:11.240 Jamen, det ved jeg ikke. Jeg har faktisk heller ikke set den selv.

00:19:14.240 Står Hitler på den? Står Pol Pot på den?

00:19:17.240 Jeg ved det.

00:19:18.240 Det er som sagt ikke min rolle at være nede i alle detaljer omkring de her afgørelser.

00:19:24.240 Hvem har bestemt, hvem der står på den liste?

00:19:27.240 Det har det team, vi har, der laver vores politikker.

00:19:29.240 Altså nogle af Facebooks ansatte?

00:19:31.240 Ja.

00:19:32.240 Og det er et arbejde, de udfører i samarbejde med eksterne eksperter, når de har brug for det.

00:19:38.240 Så det er, by the way, from a couple of years ago.

00:19:40.240 Imagine the now.

00:19:41.240 And they even have voice recognition.

00:19:44.240 You can't even say the word Tommy Robinson.

00:19:46.240 And now they're going after 12 people in the United States, they won't say who, who have the wrong ideas.

00:19:51.240 Not about terrorism, but about the pandemic and lockdowns and vaccines.

00:19:56.240 Funny, because what is a wrong idea about the pandemic?

00:20:01.240 Is it still wrong to say the virus came from the Wuhan Institute of Virology?

00:20:05.240 Because that's what was banned last year.

00:20:07.240 Is that still banned this year or is that now back in vogue?

00:20:11.240 I showed you just yesterday Jacinda Ardern, the New Zealand Prime Minister.

00:20:17.240 I thought she was an extremist and she is, but she's really not that much worse than these Americans.

00:20:22.240 We will share with you the most up-to-date information daily.

00:20:26.240 You can trust us as a source of that information.

00:20:29.240 You can also trust the Director General of Health and the Ministry of Health.

00:20:34.240 For that information, do feel free to visit at any time to clarify any rumour you may hear, covid19.govt.nz.

00:20:43.240 Otherwise, dismiss anything else.

00:20:46.240 We will continue to be your single source of truth.

00:20:49.240 We will provide information frequently.

00:20:51.240 We will share everything we can.

00:20:54.240 Everything you are, else you see, a grain of salt.

00:20:58.240 And so I really ask people to focus on that.

00:21:00.240 Well, this is a great example of that.

00:21:01.240 It appears to be this text which originated in Malaysia and has become a viral hoax in Australia and in New Zealand.

00:21:07.240 How irresponsible is it the people that are sharing that news of a lockdown imminent in New Zealand?

00:21:12.240 Yeah, and look, that's the kind of thing that adds to the anxiety that people feel.

00:21:16.240 So I continue to share the message.

00:21:18.240 New Zealanders must prepare.

00:21:20.240 But do not panic. Prepare.

00:21:22.240 And when you see those messages, remember that unless you hear it from us, it is not the truth.

00:21:30.240 And I really ask people, just visit covid19.govt.nz.

00:21:36.240 It has all of the up-to-date information.

00:21:38.240 And we will continue to provide everything you need to know.

00:21:42.240 And why am I blaming New Zealand and America?

00:21:44.240 Of course, there's Canada.

00:21:46.240 This is from Black Box Reporter.

00:21:48.240 Tweets undermine Canada.

00:21:50.240 Lawful but offensive Twitter posts are undermining Canada's democracy.

00:21:55.240 Heritage Minister Stephen Gilboa's department says in a briefing note,

00:21:58.240 regulation of hurtful comments is needed for a truly democratic debate, it said.

00:22:04.240 Got it. Got it.

00:22:05.240 If we really want to democracyize our democracy, we've got to censor our democracy democratically, of course.

00:22:12.240 What to make it more free? You have to make it less free?

00:22:15.240 My friends, things are about to get worse.

00:22:19.240 Stay with us for more.

00:22:32.240 The last time we spoke to you about the Fight the Fines project, we had 1,834 cases.

00:22:40.240 I can't even believe that.

00:22:42.240 I remember when we took our first case, it was actually Pastor Arthur Pawlowski who was fined for feeding the homeless.

00:22:49.240 Well, 1,834, our friend Victoria Solomon, who's the legal coordinator for Fight the Fines, she went on a much-deserved holiday for a week just to take some time off.

00:23:00.240 We've been on a full tilt for so long.

00:23:02.240 You've come back, and I asked you, well, what's the latest number?

00:23:07.240 And you told it to me, but I want you to tell our viewers, how many Fight the Fines cases do we have, including those that we're just now distributing to lawyers across the country?

00:23:19.240 What is the total figure?

00:23:20.240 Well, when I came back from my vacation this week, I counted the client number again, and it was 2,006 people.

00:23:29.240 Like, this is just a mind-boggling number.

00:23:32.240 I can't even believe that.

00:23:33.240 I remember when I announced at a staff meeting that I wanted to take 1,000 cases.

00:23:37.240 I said, 1,000 cases!

00:23:39.240 And everyone looked at me and said, you're crazy, what are you doing?

00:23:43.240 And here we are at over 2,000 cases.

00:23:46.240 I'm exuberant that we can take so many, but at the same time, each one of these cases is a disaster for the individual family or person who's been hit with this.

00:23:58.240 I mean, I'm excited that we're taking it, and that's why I'm sort of laughing that the number's large.

00:24:01.240 I'm laughing at the absurdity of it.

00:24:03.240 There's actually no humor in it, because each one of these cases is someone who's facing stress, possibly financial ruin, in some cases a criminal record.

00:24:14.240 And actually, one of our clients, Pastor Arthur Pawlowski, has served three days in jail.

00:24:20.240 Another client, Chris Scott from the Whistle Stop Diner, he was in jail, too.

00:24:26.240 So each one of these is a potential life-altering crisis.

00:24:31.240 So we've got to be serious, and we've got to keep fighting.

00:24:34.240 Oh, definitely.

00:24:35.240 And some of the Quarantine Act tickets, I mean, in Ontario, there's $3,750.

00:24:41.240 And people, certain people have multiple tickets arising out of the same occasion.

00:24:47.240 So there may be a family with up to $20,000 worth of tickets.

00:24:52.240 You know, unless you are a millionaire, a $20,000 bundle of fines will break your family.

00:25:01.240 Definitely.

00:25:02.240 It'll possibly force you into bankruptcy.

00:25:05.240 It could force you to miss your mortgage payments.

00:25:09.240 Obviously, there's no more eating out.

00:25:11.240 There's no more vacations, no more kids' sports.

00:25:15.240 A $20,000 after-tax penalty is, that's, I mean, when you think of it in terms of after-tax,

00:25:23.240 that's half a year's work for an ordinary family.

00:25:25.240 Oh, definitely, yeah.

00:25:26.240 And it's not only the financial aspect, but people are stressed.

00:25:31.240 They don't know what to do.

00:25:32.240 They don't know where to turn.

00:25:34.240 And I'm glad we're able to step in and help people, I mean, by providing them legal assistance,

00:25:41.240 by supporting them morally.

00:25:42.240 Now, you were on a well-deserved one-week vacation.

00:25:46.240 I'm saying that because you were telling me, and I hope you don't mind me telling it to the camera,

00:25:50.240 you were telling me you were having dreams about cases.

00:25:53.240 And I know that if you're dreaming about work, that means you needed a baby.

00:25:57.240 Yeah, I know.

00:25:58.240 It was very nice to have time off.

00:26:00.240 But while you were away, obviously, we still had hands on deck.

00:26:03.240 We have two full-time paralegals, and we have a team of lawyers around the country.

00:26:10.240 Around 20?

00:26:11.240 Yeah, I'd say so.

00:26:12.240 And actually, we have three full-time paralegals now.

00:26:15.240 Three full-time paralegals.

00:26:16.240 We just hired Mark Cardia.

00:26:17.240 I'm very excited about him.

00:26:19.240 He was actually a provincial offense prosecutor.

00:26:23.240 Really?

00:26:24.240 He was a prosecutor?

00:26:25.240 Yeah, provincial offense prosecutor.

00:26:26.240 Wow.

00:26:27.240 In Saskatchewan, we have a new team member, a new lawyer, Luke Kupal.

00:26:32.240 And he was also a crown prosecutor.

00:26:35.240 And he's doing just an amazing job for our clients.

00:26:37.240 Wow.

00:26:38.240 Isn't that great?

00:26:39.240 I mean, if you're a prosecutor, you really know how it works, how the other side thinks.

00:26:44.240 Oh, yeah.

00:26:45.240 So now to come and fight for our side, that's very exciting.

00:26:48.240 I remember you mentioned his name to me, but I didn't really know much about him.

00:26:51.240 Now, while we have people's attention, there is one province that we've been having a little

00:26:55.240 bit of trouble recruiting a lawyer.

00:26:57.240 Why don't you tell our people about that?

00:26:58.240 If there is a lawyer watching who's interested in joining fight the fines, we do pay.

00:27:03.240 Oh, yeah.

00:27:04.240 I mean, you're not going to get rich doing this kind of law, but you will get paid.

00:27:08.240 We don't have any pro bono lawyers or paralegals because we want people to really fight hard,

00:27:12.240 and we don't want them.

00:27:13.240 You know, I find that lawyers, when they do pro bono, it's always well-intentioned,

00:27:17.240 but it seems to fall down their priority list because they have to earn a living.

00:27:21.240 So we pay lawyers.

00:27:22.240 Tell us where we need help to fill in the gaps.

00:27:25.240 Yeah, so we need help in the married times. 1.00

00:27:27.240 In particular, in Nova Scotia, we have over 20 clients that have asked for help,

00:27:32.240 and we've been trying hard to find a lawyer in Nova Scotia.

00:27:37.240 We've asked clients to assist, and so far, unfortunately, we have not been lucky.

00:27:42.240 And I believe we have one client that asked for help in Newfoundland,

00:27:46.240 and we don't have a lawyer there either.

00:27:48.240 So if there is anyone interested in assisting us who practices in the married times,

00:27:53.240 we would be more than happy to have a new member join us.

00:27:57.240 And you know what?

00:27:59.240 People can send me a note, and I'll pass it to you.

00:28:02.240 Just send me a note at ezra at rebelnews.com, and I'll pass it on to Victoria.

00:28:08.240 You know, I went to the law school myself out west,

00:28:11.240 and I know lots of lawyers in Calgary and Edmonton and whatnot,

00:28:14.240 but I just don't have that many buddies in the Atlantic.

00:28:18.240 You know, the one fellow we tried to get on board with this.

00:28:21.240 We do need people on the ground out there,

00:28:23.240 because every province has a slightly different procedure.

00:28:26.240 The laws are different province by province.

00:28:29.240 And so we just need, and we don't want to fly someone out there.

00:28:32.240 We just need someone in Halifax mainly and Newfoundland, St. John's, to help.

00:28:38.240 So if you can help, go to ezra at rebelnews.com, send me a note.

00:28:42.240 Well, that's good.

00:28:43.240 Now, last time we spoke, you told me that 91 cases had been resolved,

00:28:50.240 including dozens where the Crown prosecutor, when he looked at the ticket, said,

00:28:55.240 yeah, I'm not going to go to court with this.

00:28:57.240 They basically realized that it was a junk ticket meant to scare people into paying a fine.

00:29:05.240 To me, that's appalling that they're handing out such rotten tickets

00:29:08.240 and hoping just the fear factor will make people pay them, fear and stress.

00:29:14.240 You know, in a sense, those are the best ones because they're the most unjust

00:29:18.240 if they were to proceed.

00:29:19.240 What's your latest stats?

00:29:20.240 Do you know the latest stats in terms of how we're moving along?

00:29:23.240 They haven't changed since then, but unfortunately, I mean, compared to 2,000 people,

00:29:30.240 that's a pretty-

00:29:31.240 It's 5%, if anything.

00:29:32.240 Yeah, yeah.

00:29:33.240 It's a pretty small amount.

00:29:34.240 So we have a fight ahead of us, definitely.

00:29:36.240 Now, I mentioned the very first case we took was Arthur Pawlowski 15 months ago.

00:29:43.240 And you and I have talked about how one of the rules in our criminal law system

00:29:49.240 and in our Charter of Rights is the right to a speedy trial because evidence fades away.

00:29:56.240 Memories fade.

00:29:58.240 It's hard to defend what you did 2, 3, 4 years ago if you can't even remember exactly.

00:30:04.240 I mean, our memories fade.

00:30:06.240 And it's unfair to the accused because you have this cloud over you for years,

00:30:12.240 the stress, the stigma, even though you're not convicted yet,

00:30:16.240 the fact that you've been charged or accused or ticketed is a kind of a blemish.

00:30:21.240 And you need that trial to acquit yourself of that.

00:30:26.240 So here's a question to you.

00:30:28.240 If the first cases we took were from April 2020, May, June, July, so we're 15 months into it.

00:30:36.240 Yeah.

00:30:37.240 By the time we get around 18 months, like that's about the time that these cases start to really rot

00:30:43.240 from the point of view of the prosecution.

00:30:45.240 Is it 18 months, 24 months?

00:30:46.240 What sort of, what's the standard rule do you think?

00:30:48.240 I believe it's somewhere between 18 and 24 months depending on the offense.

00:30:53.240 So I think we're approaching a decision point for a lot of these governments.

00:30:58.240 Do you prosecute?

00:30:59.240 Do you have that vindictive spirit?

00:31:03.240 Do you want to go for that grandma and that grandpa and ring out a thousand bucks?

00:31:09.240 If so, you know, we've got a lot of lawyers, but the government has unlimited resources.

00:31:13.240 They could hire 20 prosecutors like that.

00:31:15.240 I don't know what the judges would think.

00:31:17.240 So really, I think we're coming on that decision time, aren't we?

00:31:20.240 Yeah, I think it remains to be seen how courts are going to deal with this.

00:31:26.240 I mean, ultimately, I think it will be up to the judge if this comes before him or her

00:31:32.240 and the unreasonable delay argument is raised.

00:31:35.240 It's possible that they will decide to extend this period due to the pandemic.

00:31:40.240 But I mean, it remains to be seen how the courts will deal with this.

00:31:44.240 In Ontario, most jurisdictions haven't been hearing contested matters.

00:31:48.240 And this is why none of our cases have come up for trial.

00:31:51.240 Because we're fighting them all.

00:31:52.240 Yeah.

00:31:53.240 And the courts are basically closed.

00:31:56.240 Unless it's like an emergency matter, right?

00:31:58.240 Yeah.

00:31:59.240 And the tickets haven't been classified as an emergency matter.

00:32:03.240 So this is why we haven't had trials in most jurisdictions.

00:32:06.240 Well, I mean, we haven't had any trials yet.

00:32:09.240 We have two in Alberta that started and have been adjourned.

00:32:13.240 But it's mostly because courts have been closed due to COVID.

00:32:16.240 So when they reopen now and things start moving, we will see how this unreasonable delay issue is going to be dealt with.

00:32:25.240 It's very, very interesting from an academic point of view.

00:32:28.240 Definitely.

00:32:29.240 That we've got to remember.

00:32:30.240 And I chuckled at the number 2006.

00:32:32.240 But, you know, one person being ground down is a tragedy.

00:32:38.240 2000 is a statistic.

00:32:39.240 And so we always have to remember it's individual families going through this.

00:32:44.240 For a while there, the largest fine for any of our clients was $14,000.

00:32:50.240 It was the church in Prince Albert, Saskatchewan, which we have since won.

00:32:55.240 They dropped that.

00:32:56.240 Have you heard, you mentioned $3,000 fine multiplied by family members.

00:33:01.240 So you said somewhere around $20,000.

00:33:03.240 Is that the largest fine that you've seen out of these $2,000?

00:33:07.240 Yeah, I think so.

00:33:08.240 The $14,000 as an individual fine, I think that's the largest one that I've seen.

00:33:13.240 Yeah.

00:33:14.240 Yes.

00:33:15.240 But because, you know, there may be multiple family members getting those Quarantine Act tickets.

00:33:21.240 It just gets ridiculous.

00:33:23.240 And sometimes it may be four family members, two tickets per family member multiplied by four.

00:33:30.240 That's just a mind staggering amount.

00:33:33.240 Yeah.

00:33:34.240 Yeah.

00:33:35.240 I mean, just for the viewers, seriously, imagine if you had to come up with $14,000 or $20,000

00:33:39.240 for some foolish COVID hotel that was frankly more dangerous than just going home to your house. 0.95

00:33:46.240 It's just crazy. 0.98

00:33:47.240 Now, can you tell me, you mentioned cases are still coming in.

00:33:52.240 Mm-hmm.

00:33:53.240 You would think that the lockdown is easing in most parts of Canada.

00:33:58.240 So maybe the flow of cases would be declining.

00:34:02.240 How many cases on any given day are coming in?

00:34:04.240 It looked like a lot came in today.

00:34:05.240 Mm-hmm.

00:34:06.240 Well, I think I'd say maybe five to 10.

00:34:09.240 So I suspect our number now is higher than 2006.

00:34:13.240 Yeah.

00:34:14.240 This was a few days ago.

00:34:15.240 But the cases that are coming in, they are Quarantine Act tickets because people are still crossing the border by land and by air.

00:34:23.240 So I think this will continue to happen.

00:34:26.240 And some people believe that they may be exempt from a quarantining requirement or exempt from taking a COVID test.

00:34:36.240 And they're actually not exempt and then they get fined.

00:34:39.240 Right.

00:34:40.240 And then there are people who receive tickets before the lockdown was eased, but they haven't come to us yet.

00:34:48.240 Right.

00:34:49.240 And they're coming to us now.

00:34:50.240 Right.

00:34:51.240 So I suspect that we're still going to be getting a steady flow of tickets.

00:34:54.240 Yeah, I think you're right.

00:34:55.240 You know, I mean, when 2,000 people across this country, like really in almost every province and territory.

00:35:01.240 I don't think we have anyone in Nunavut.

00:35:03.240 I don't think we do.

00:35:05.240 But I know we have Yukon, Northwest Territories, obviously Ontario in the West, Quebec.

00:35:11.240 We have a whole Quebec law firm.

00:35:13.240 They're probably at several hundred now.

00:35:15.240 Over 200 people.

00:35:17.240 Yeah, it's incredible.

00:35:18.240 Well, I don't want to sound too proud of this because you don't want to be proud of helping in a disaster.

00:35:26.240 That's the wrong mindset.

00:35:29.240 But I am proud of our team.

00:35:32.240 You, Victoria, you're a lawyer and you're the coordinator.

00:35:35.240 The three paralegals.

00:35:37.240 I forgot about the new fellow we just hired to handle it.

00:35:39.240 So I'm proud of the team.

00:35:40.240 Let me say that.

00:35:41.240 I'm proud of the fact that we've assembled a network of lawyers coast to coast.

00:35:46.240 We do need help in Halifax and St. John's, if you can help us.

00:35:49.240 And obviously the greatest thanks goes to our viewers who paid for it.

00:35:55.240 Because everyone, you know, of the lawyers, we do pay.

00:35:59.240 Now, I think we do try and negotiate to keep their rates down.

00:36:02.240 I mean, if you give a lawyer 20 cases, he's going to give you a discount.

00:36:06.240 So I feel like we are being responsible with the money.

00:36:08.240 Definitely.

00:36:09.240 And yeah, and these are lawyers who are doing this for the principal.

00:36:13.240 I don't think they're looking to get rich.

00:36:16.240 And they are not, you know, recent graduates.

00:36:19.240 All of them are senior counsel, some former crown prosecutors.

00:36:22.240 Yeah, that's true.

00:36:23.240 They have, yeah, they have entire law firms behind them.

00:36:27.240 None of them practice alone.

00:36:28.240 So there is one head, you know, main lawyer that's representing the firm,

00:36:33.240 but they're working with many lawyers within their firm and paralegals and staff.

00:36:39.240 Yeah.

00:36:40.240 So it's a staggering amount of lawyers and staff and law firms that are working with us on this project.

00:36:46.240 Yeah.

00:36:47.240 I mean, and some of them our viewers probably know Leighton Gray.

00:36:49.240 Oh, yeah.

00:36:50.240 For example, Queens Council.

00:36:51.240 We've interviewed him actually as a guest a couple of years ago on the channel.

00:36:54.240 So, I mean, he's a very senior lawyer.

00:36:55.240 Oh, yes.

00:36:56.240 Anyone who's a QC, Queens Council, that means you've been around a while

00:36:59.240 and you're recognized by the government as being a leader in the profession.

00:37:04.240 Well, I just want to say one more thing because a few months ago we had an innovation that really helped us,

00:37:11.240 and it was the advent of the Democracy Fund, which is a registered CRA charity that has as one of its activities

00:37:19.240 civil liberties litigation.

00:37:21.240 And so all of a sudden the money we were raising and spending on these lawyers could be,

00:37:29.240 could receive a charitable tax receipt.

00:37:32.240 And that made a lot of difference because all of a sudden someone who was going to donate 50 bucks,

00:37:37.240 well, they could donate 60 or 70 or 80 and have the same net result.

00:37:42.240 As I like to joke, it reduces your taxes.

00:37:45.240 If you could pay $20 less in tax to Trudeau and have that money go to fight the fines,

00:37:50.240 why wouldn't you do it?

00:37:51.240 That's at least in my mind.

00:37:53.240 So the democracyfund.ca is the charity that's been helping us.

00:37:57.240 And I want to say that they are looking for a project manager.

00:38:02.240 So you would be working with Victoria and other folks on the team to continue the good work.

00:38:08.240 If you or someone you know would like to be a project manager for the Democracy Fund

00:38:13.240 working on civil liberties projects, other humanitarian projects,

00:38:17.240 go to thedemocracyfund.ca slash jobs and apply,

00:38:24.240 and you'll be working with great folks like Victoria.

00:38:27.240 Well, listen, thanks again.

00:38:29.240 I want to say we've done a lot of things in six and a half years at Rebel News.

00:38:34.240 Done a lot of interesting stories, not just here in Canada, but around the world.

00:38:37.240 We've been to a great many countries, you know, a great many crises from Hong Kong to Iraq,

00:38:42.240 to Israel, to Mexico, to all over America and Europe.

00:38:46.240 But I think that perhaps the greatest thing we have done in terms of changing the world

00:38:52.240 has been helping these 2006 families.

00:38:56.240 I really feel that way.

00:38:57.240 And I like to joke that when I get to heaven and they close the pearly gates on me

00:39:01.240 and say, you go downstairs, Levant.

00:39:03.240 I'll say, no, no, no.

00:39:04.240 And then I'll say, I did something worthwhile in my life.

00:39:09.240 And I helped people who needed it.

00:39:11.240 And Victoria, you were a key part of that.

00:39:13.240 Thank God.

00:39:14.240 And everyone who chipped in, whether it was 50 bucks or 500,

00:39:20.240 or there were some folks who gave even more.

00:39:22.240 So thank you to you.

00:39:23.240 Sounds like we're not out of the woods yet.

00:39:26.240 Oh, no.

00:39:27.240 I think we're just beginning because now courts will reopen

00:39:31.240 and this is when the fight will really start.

00:39:33.240 Yeah.

00:39:34.240 Well, we better keep fundraising then because it's one thing to take the cases.

00:39:38.240 It's another to run hundreds of trials.

00:39:40.240 But we have to.

00:39:41.240 Yeah.

00:39:42.240 Well, there you have it, an update.

00:39:44.240 2,006 cases plus, you know, 5, 10 more every day.

00:39:49.240 Thank you for your support.

00:39:50.240 If you want to join the team, the Democracy Fund is looking for a project manager.

00:39:55.240 Go to thedemocracyfund.ca slash jobs.

00:39:59.240 And as Victoria can show, it's a very meaningful job.

00:40:03.240 It's not just a job.

00:40:04.240 It's a way to help your fellow Canadian.

00:40:06.240 All right.

00:40:07.240 Stay with us more.

00:40:12.240 Hey, welcome back on my show last night.

00:40:21.240 Stark writes,

00:40:22.240 I work for the government.

00:40:23.240 Trust me.

00:40:24.240 No scarier words have been spoken.

00:40:26.240 Yeah.

00:40:27.240 Well, they're not even asking you to trust them.

00:40:28.240 They're just sort of forcing you to obey them.

00:40:30.240 It's even different, isn't it?

00:40:32.240 Brad writes,

00:40:33.240 Sounds like a message from a cult leader.

00:40:35.240 Yeah.

00:40:36.240 Jacinda Ardern, she has so many trappings of a cult leader, but that is oozing around the 1.00

00:40:41.240 world to Canada, even to Joe Biden.

00:40:44.240 M.Ed W. writes,

00:40:47.240 All government messages are identical.

00:40:49.240 I wonder who sends them their daily briefings to read to the public.

00:40:52.240 Well, that's the thing.

00:40:53.240 When Trump was in office, he was a real anomaly.

00:40:55.240 And since he was the president of the most powerful country in the world, that was enough to be

00:41:00.240 a dam against this mighty river of globalism and leftism.

00:41:04.240 But now that Joe Biden is there, the river runs through it.

00:41:07.240 And you've got everyone from Angela Merkel to Trudeau to, you know, pretty much to

00:41:14.240 Macron to pretty much every country in the world now on board.

00:41:18.240 Donald Trump resisted the tide.

00:41:21.240 I don't know if America is going to be transformed enough in the next four years to stop such a

00:41:26.240 president from ever being elected again.

00:41:28.240 Wouldn't surprise me.

00:41:29.240 That's our show for the day and for the week.

00:41:31.240 Hope you enjoyed it.

00:41:32.240 Until next time, on behalf of all of us here at Rebel World Headquarters, to you at home,

00:41:36.240 good night.

00:41:37.240 Keep fighting for freedom.

00:41:48.240 Good night.

00:41:49.240 Good night.

Rebel News Podcast - July 17, 2021

EZRA LEVANT ｜ President Biden tells Facebook to delete posts it finds “problematic”

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