Rebel News Podcast - EZRA LEVANT ｜ Will America save free speech around the world through Big Tech？

00:00:00.000 Hello, my friends. What an amazing show. One of my favorite guys, one of my smartest friends

00:00:04.540 is Alan Bocari, and he knows everything about internet censorship and now incredibly internet

00:00:10.400 freedom with the U.S. State Department fighting for freedom around the world.

00:00:14.200 It's pretty exciting, and we've got a feature interview with him, one of the smartest guys

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00:01:08.180 Tonight, will America say free speech around the world through big tech? It's opposite time,

00:01:29.200 isn't it? It was quite different under Joe Biden. We'll have a feature interview with Alan Bocari.

00:01:33.680 It's August 4th, and this is the Ezra LeVant Show.

00:01:39.480 Shame on you, you censorious bug.

00:01:52.160 Justin Trudeau called it the Online Harms Act, Bill C-63. It would have become law had he not

00:01:57.900 dissolved Parliament. It was the Censorship Act that created three new censorship bureaucracies and

00:02:03.280 allowed massive fines. Well, the UK has that law. They call it the Online Safety Act, but it's very

00:02:10.980 similar. They're using it with great and brutal force, and obviously they're using it for political

00:02:17.400 purposes. What's interesting is that this time around, the United States has a Department of State

00:02:23.520 that really cares about freedom of speech. Under Joe Biden, the State Department worked with foreign

00:02:29.340 allies to limit internet freedom around the world. The State Department was actually with the bad guys

00:02:35.880 funding them. It's the opposite now. Now, Secretary Rubio points out people around the world who were

00:02:43.000 censoring Americans or American tech platforms and bans them. Just today, Alexandre de Moraes, the out-of-control,

00:02:52.660 crusading judge in Brazil that put censorship orders on social media, he was hit with a Magnitsky Act

00:03:00.240 sanctions, basically freezing him in any dealings with the U.S. Imagine that. The U.S. State Department

00:03:06.860 putting sanctions on censors. Well, what are they going to do in the UK? Because that Online Safety

00:03:14.320 Act is doing the same thing. Joining me now to talk about this is a man better positioned to talk

00:03:19.500 about this than just about anyone in the world. He was a senior tech editor at Breitbart.com. He's

00:03:24.420 from the UK originally, and now he works full-time for Freedom. In fact, that's the name of his

00:03:29.740 organization, Foundation for Freedom Online. You know who I'm talking about. He's the managing director

00:03:34.360 there, our good friend, Alam Bokhari. Alam, there's a lot going on, and Trump's freedom agenda

00:03:41.860 is spreading around the world. Tell me the latest.

00:03:45.160 So the Online Safety Act in the UK just went into force. It went into force on the 25th a few days

00:03:52.800 ago. And if you look at my Twitter feed, you'll see already examples of dissident political speech

00:03:59.560 being placed behind age filters. So you're asked on X to give up your driver's license to prove how old

00:04:07.280 you are, to prove you over 18 before you can access political content, which is very interesting because

00:04:12.980 the Labour government of the UK, their ministers who fully backed this law introduced by the previous

00:04:19.020 Conservative government, they're doing a media tour right now saying the online safety bill is only

00:04:24.820 about protecting children from harmful content like pornography. Well, it turns out some of that

00:04:29.860 harmful content that they're protecting people from is in fact political content. We've already seen

00:04:35.280 a opposition MP, Katie Lamb, yet put behind an age filter because she was talking about migrant crime.

00:04:42.140 On my feed, you'll see an account, a very funny account that simply makes fun of the UK for

00:04:48.000 occasionally looking like a third world country. People are being asked to prove their age to give

00:04:53.000 up their driver's license just to view that account. So this is how the Online Safety Act is being used

00:04:59.120 already. And as you said, Ezra, at the start, there was a similar law in Canada. There's going to be a

00:05:04.440 similar law in Australia. There's a vast censorship regime with similar measures in the European Union

00:05:09.560 called the Digital Services Act. This is an international assault, a convergence against free speech that

00:05:16.500 we're seeing in every single Western country around the world, except the United States now. But as you said,

00:05:21.320 the United States helped create this under Joe Biden. This is in part, we're dealing with the knock-on

00:05:27.060 effects of what the US government was doing under the previous administration when they backed censorship

00:05:32.200 all around the world. I'll add to that just today, an Irish court ruled against X or Twitter in favor

00:05:40.320 of the government bringing in more censorship laws. It looks like a big showdown. And normally,

00:05:45.220 America versus the world, where there's a lot more of the world than there are Americans, but all the

00:05:51.120 tech companies and all the economic power and the moral authority of that bully pulpit, I bet on Trump

00:05:58.220 and Secretary Rubio, who's sort of in charge of this, he has not been shy. I'm rooting for the

00:06:04.040 good guys. I want to come back to something you said a minute ago, which is in the UK, people now have

00:06:09.200 to enter a government piece of ID to see something. The government says that's just for things like

00:06:14.940 child abuse or pornography. They're doing that because who would be against that? Well, as you point out,

00:06:21.200 it's touching on regular politics stuff too. You said you have to prove you're 18, but it's more

00:06:27.760 than that, isn't it? If you're uploading a driver's license, you're saying your name. So you're showing

00:06:34.260 the government or whoever's collecting that info who you are. You can't read anything privately now.

00:06:40.900 And who knows if that data will be hacked? I mean, I don't want to be paranoid, but I don't trust the

00:06:45.380 government with my data. Do you? That's right. And you should see it as a stepping stone to ending

00:06:50.560 internet anonymity, which is a lot of the same supporters of these types of measures. They hate

00:06:55.680 online anonymity because that's the ultimate form of free speech. You're expressing your opinions

00:07:00.780 without putting your name out there, without risking your reputation. That's a form of free speech that's

00:07:05.420 even more powerful than regular social media. And by making people give up their personal

00:07:10.060 identifying information just to access political speech online, you're creating a stepping stone

00:07:15.660 to end anonymity. In addition, you're putting that information on an online database. You're

00:07:20.840 entrusting some third party with it, which may not be entirely secure. We just saw in the United States,

00:07:26.160 there was an app, it was called T. They asked every user to upload their driver's license. And it

00:07:32.220 turns out their security was really shitty. The entire database leaked. So there was an ironic element

00:07:38.320 of karma to it since the whole app was sort of a doxing platform, a Me Too platform, and then

00:07:42.240 everything leaked. But you're uploading these documents. How can you be sure that the place

00:07:47.960 you're uploading it to is secure, even if they're trying to be secure, even if they're not sharing

00:07:51.760 it with the government or with journalists? It could leak at a future date. You don't know how

00:07:56.000 secure that's going to be. Yeah, it really is Orwellian. Hey, there's one more thing I want to

00:08:00.620 point out. And can you corroborate this? I've seen this by a few people on Twitter, and it looks

00:08:05.060 authoritative that this Online Safety Act expressly says, and I mentioned some of the things, it's

00:08:10.800 designed to protect young viewers against violence and pornography and fraud and suicide. And again,

00:08:17.200 that's designed to get people to say, of course, I support that. But then they sneak the politics

00:08:22.960 into that. They did that in Canada's Bill C-63-2. So you have all these well-meaning things who could

00:08:29.380 possibly disagree with them, but stuck in there, and you correct me if I'm reading this wrong,

00:08:33.260 subject matter including, quote, illegal immigration and people smuggling. So you can't

00:08:41.220 talk about suicide, and I can understand. Go ahead. Yeah, we cannot let them have this narrative. This

00:08:47.520 is the narrative they're running with. They're even accusing Nigel Farage and the Reform Party,

00:08:51.640 which opposes this bill and has promised to repeal it, of being on the side of child predators. They're

00:08:56.180 completely running with this narrative. But if you go to the UK government's official guidelines

00:09:01.020 on the online safety bill, so the official government website, you'll see it's right

00:09:05.800 there in bold text. I put this on my Twitter feed as well, that the Act covers myths and

00:09:11.460 disinformation, that it covers hate speech, that it covers all of these pretexts that are used

00:09:16.240 for censoring political speech. And, you know, government ministers in the UK, when they're out

00:09:21.960 doing TV interviews, they'll only talk about the child protection measures. They won't talk about what

00:09:27.440 they're talking about in Parliament, where government ministers are saying, yes, this act does cover

00:09:32.480 misinformation. And in fact, government ministers have even said that a key purpose of the bill is

00:09:39.460 to prevent the kind of riots that were seen, the kind of public disturbances that were seen in the UK

00:09:45.580 last year, because people were organizing organically to protest immigration and migrant crime and illegal

00:09:53.700 immigration. That's not about protecting kids. That's about shutting down political activity.

00:09:59.940 That's what they really care about. And the protecting kids stuff is really just a Trojan horse.

00:10:05.340 And I'll say one more thing on this. It's not just a Trojan horse in the UK. It's also a Trojan horse

00:10:10.560 in America, because what you're seeing in America at the state level now is a big push for what's being

00:10:16.420 called media literacy and digital literacy lessons in schools. And again, there, the pretext is exactly

00:10:23.940 the same. People say we need to teach kids safe online browsing habits. But when you dig a little

00:10:29.360 deeper, the organizations that are providing the teaching curricula for digital literacy, for media

00:10:35.440 literacy, there are organizations like the Southern Poverty Law Center, there are organizations like

00:10:39.700 NewsGuard, there are organizations whose entire purpose is to tell people, don't go to websites that

00:10:46.000 carry political viewpoints we disagree with. That is what organizations like that do. And again,

00:10:51.100 they're using protecting kids as the Trojan horse to achieve that.

00:10:54.860 Right. You know, when I saw that they wanted to ban discussions of, quote, illegal immigration and

00:11:00.920 people smuggling, once upon a time, just look at those words, illegal immigration. Well, you just said it

00:11:06.100 was illegal. And people smuggling, that's human trafficking. You would think that a law would be to

00:11:11.780 crack down on those two things that are explicitly criminal. No, it's to stop people from talking

00:11:17.880 about it. And by the way, you know, they mean it because both the conservative and the labor party

00:11:22.760 were a party to this super injunction to stop anyone from talking about this massive secret airlift of

00:11:31.080 Afghans, like almost 200,000 of them, secret migration. Like the whole establishment is so locked into their

00:11:40.860 agenda. I don't get it. I was in the UK over the weekend, Alan, and I think ordinary people have

00:11:45.780 had it with mass illegal immigration and people smuggling. Why is the establishment digging in? I

00:11:52.500 don't get it. That's why the law is so important to them. And it's really important to them that's

00:11:57.220 come into effect at this time, because as you say, Ezra, there have been spontaneous protests this

00:12:01.940 summer as well. We had them last summer in the UK, but this summer as well, spontaneous protests

00:12:07.380 outside hotels that are housing illegal migrants. It's a domino effect. We saw a few protests in

00:12:13.120 Epping in East London a few weeks ago, and now they're spreading across the country. And how are

00:12:19.120 they spreading across the country? They're spreading across the country because people are currently

00:12:22.300 allowed to communicate on social media. They're allowed to communicate on Facebook, on WhatsApp,

00:12:27.400 on X. And that's how people are finding out about these protests, finding other people who are going to

00:12:32.580 them and organize. That's how social media should be used for democratic political organizing,

00:12:38.140 organic political organizing, not astroturf in any way. This is completely organic from the bottom up.

00:12:44.160 That is precisely the type of organization that threatens the establishment, that threatens the

00:12:49.640 regime. That's why they want to shut it down. That's why this law is so important to them. And,

00:12:54.460 you know, you mentioned that provision in the law about people smuggling and illegal immigration.

00:12:59.960 It's written in a kind of ambiguous way. You could say that's actually, they're saying,

00:13:05.520 well, we want to stop people smugglers from communicating on social media. But if you go to

00:13:11.600 what, I bet ministers will say that in public as well when they're trying to convince people to

00:13:15.520 support the law. But if you look at what they're saying in parliament, they're saying, no,

00:13:20.080 this is for covering misinformation that leads to public disturbances, that leads,

00:13:24.780 well, they'll call it rioting. But what they really mean is this organic energy you're seeing in

00:13:29.800 the UK to solve the immigration issue, this issue that the political establishment have ignored for

00:13:35.940 decades after decades, election after election, and are still ignoring it. And that's why there's so

00:13:40.540 much anger at the grassroots level. That's why there's so much energy. That's what they want to

00:13:44.900 shut down. Yeah. You know, you just listed a bunch of social media platforms from Instagram to

00:13:50.340 WhatsApp to just texting, I guess. And all the companies you named, not surprisingly,

00:13:56.320 are American, because that's where so many of the tech companies are. I can't even think off the top

00:14:01.720 of my head of a big British tech company. And that's no insult to the Brits. I just can't think

00:14:06.480 of one. Let me know if I'm missing one. And so, pardon me? OnlyFans is a British company. That's

00:14:12.080 Britain's contribution to the online UK system. Sorry about that. And that's the source of the hope is

00:14:18.400 that these are all American companies. And like I said, unlike the Biden administration,

00:14:22.760 Trump and Secretary Rubio are using this as a way into the other countries, because if you're going

00:14:28.960 to be fining not only the American platforms, but American users on an American platform, well,

00:14:37.120 now you're messing with the First Amendment. And I remember you and I talking about Mark Zuckerberg

00:14:41.800 when he sort of had his come to Jesus moment earlier this year and said, we're not going to censor

00:14:46.820 anymore. We're not going to ban talks about misgendering. And I remember the one thing he said

00:14:51.560 with the help of the State Department, because a company cannot fight a government. A company must

00:14:57.260 obey a government unless they have their government on their side, too. So it looks like Secretary Rubio

00:15:02.880 is actually backing up and the Congress are backing up companies like Rumble and Reddit and Twitter.

00:15:11.400 But they're actually deploying. Give me some more details on that. I mentioned the sanctions against

00:15:15.960 this crusading Brazilian judge. Give me another example.

00:15:18.580 This is really critical, actually, because this is the entire hope of the international censorship

00:15:24.000 industry, which includes many Americans who supported censorship under the previous administration.

00:15:29.020 They've actually said many, many times that they hope laws like the European Union's Digital

00:15:33.060 Services Act and the Online Safety Act will bring back some of the censorship that the

00:15:38.620 administration backed on the Joe Biden. And the Online Safety Act is actually a really great

00:15:45.260 example of how they can do it. There's a really devious provision in it. And what it says is,

00:15:50.680 in extreme circumstances, if the UK is dealing with a company that's refusing to comply, that's

00:15:57.580 refusing to censor its users, then what they can do is they can compel advertisers, they can compel

00:16:02.980 payment processors, and they can compel internet service providers to cut off that company.

00:16:08.240 That's the North Korea style. That's that North Korea move that Twitter was warning about in Canada.

00:16:13.860 Exactly. And the reason that's so dangerous, Ezra, is because even if you have a platform that's very,

00:16:20.720 very committed to free speech like X, like Gab, like Rumble, like many other companies,

00:16:25.700 they're only going to be as strong as the weakest link in their business partnerships.

00:16:33.520 So if their advertisers don't hold the line as well, if their payment processes don't hold the line

00:16:38.980 as well, then they can be put out of business by the UK government. They say they'll use it in extreme

00:16:43.360 circumstances. I wonder what those extreme circumstances will be. That's extremely dangerous.

00:16:48.500 And the only way it can be countered, I think, is if American regulators say, look, if you do this,

00:16:55.020 we're going to come after you. If you drop an American platform because a foreign government

00:16:59.040 demanded that you as a payment processor or an advertiser drop them as a platform, then we,

00:17:04.980 whether that's the FTC, the FCC, or some other regulatory body will come after you. That's the

00:17:09.200 only way to counter this international censorship strategy. It's very, very dangerous.

00:17:13.980 Right. I was thinking about Montreal's mayor, Valerie Plante, who cancelled a public venue for this

00:17:21.360 Christian pastor from America, and then fined a Christian church for hosting him for saying some

00:17:27.660 prayers. And she doesn't care about headlines. Montreal loves what she did. But if she was

00:17:34.920 banned by a State Department sanction, saying she's not allowed to go to Florida every Christmas,

00:17:41.360 she might think twice. And it's not, you know, throwing her in jail. She hasn't committed a war crime.

00:17:47.100 But if she's going to rough up American citizens and violate American senses of freedom,

00:17:54.060 why should she be allowed to go party in Florida when it's cold in Montreal? Let her stay there

00:17:59.140 in the slush or let her go to Cuba, which she probably does anyways. I think that Americans

00:18:04.960 can help free the world by doing this. Frankly, I wouldn't be surprised if Canada brings the Online

00:18:11.240 Harms Act back again. And I think everyone in Canada is going to roll over. The only people who

00:18:15.760 will save us are either the Elon Musk's of the world or the Marco Rubio's of the world. We're in

00:18:21.620 your hands, Alam.

00:18:23.480 The American government, yeah, they're one of, probably the only major government at the moment

00:18:28.000 who's fighting against censorship rather than fighting for censorship, fighting for more censorship.

00:18:32.340 And the other thing I would say on that note is, you know, it's not just, it's not even just about

00:18:39.520 regulations, it's also about tariffs and trade policy. That's another lever the US government

00:18:44.220 can use on this sort of thing. That's something that's been used in the case of Brazil, for example.

00:18:52.120 You look at what the US said about Brazil when they introduced 50% tariffs. They explicitly

00:18:57.440 mentioned the attacks on American companies as one of the reasons for that. And the only

00:19:02.320 online safety bill is following the same course. In fact, one of the things that previous, until

00:19:08.120 now, Brazil was distinct for is Brazil once arrested a Facebook employee, an employer of

00:19:14.180 an American company. This was back in 2016. They actually arrested a Facebook employee for

00:19:18.180 refusing to comply with online censorship borders. The UK's online safety bill does exactly the

00:19:25.500 same thing. They can arrest, criminally charge and imprison people for up to two years if

00:19:31.640 their company refuses to comply with Ofcom, which is UK's internet regulator.

00:19:37.440 And actually, American companies, including Gab, this was reported in Politico yesterday,

00:19:42.440 have already received letters from the UK regulator warning them that if they don't comply, they could be

00:19:47.940 subject to criminal charges. They could be subject to even imprisonment if they step foot in the UK.

00:19:53.440 So American citizens are now being warned by a UK government body that they could be jailed for refusing to

00:20:00.320 comply with censorship orders in their country.

00:20:02.440 Alam, I got to say, that's actually far worse than the Canadian proposal in the Online Harms Act. They talked about

00:20:09.040 fining US social media companies 8% of their global revenues, the audacity, the chutzpah, the madness of that. But even they

00:20:16.820 didn't have the audacity to call for prison terms. Just amazing. Well, let me ask you this. Elon Musk and Donald Trump, who were

00:20:24.660 sort of close friends for an important period of time, sort of had a falling out. I don't know if they operate together

00:20:31.440 anymore. But Elon Musk's closeness to Trump, I thought, was a great encourager for the free speech movement. Given that the

00:20:39.700 men are a little bit further apart these days, does the administration remain as committed to free speech for

00:20:46.740 social media, even without Elon Musk's direct participation?

00:20:51.940 Unquestionably so. And I, you know, in the course of my job, I talk, I often talk to people in the

00:20:57.320 administration who are involved in free speech matters, whether that's at the State Department or at other

00:21:02.960 agencies. They're all complete. This is the most pro-free speech administration, I think, that I've, certainly in my

00:21:09.440 life and that I've seen since I've been involved in politics and talking about politics. They are

00:21:14.480 completely committed. And it'll be interesting to see how this plays out because you have every other

00:21:19.440 Western government in the world going in the opposite direction. But I will say this, maybe we'll end on

00:21:25.380 this because we're talking about the UK. We're talking about the public, the spontaneous public

00:21:33.260 demonstrations in the UK. We're talking about how this bill has been introduced just at a time

00:21:39.320 when the UK government, I think, is the most nervous about disturbances from below, about grassroots

00:21:45.000 energy from below, where they've lost the support of the British public. They have a dismal rating in

00:21:50.840 the polls. And this really happens to every government that comes to power in the UK because

00:21:56.000 they refuse to tackle this key public concern of immigration. But here's why the UK, I think,

00:22:02.120 might be the first domino to fall. And I wouldn't say the US has been the first domino to fall in the

00:22:07.860 global regime just because it's very difficult for radical change of any kind to happen in the US.

00:22:12.940 That's just how the political institutions are set up. They're designed to halt radical change.

00:22:17.840 The UK is the opposite. In the UK, you don't have independent judiciary. You don't have judges that

00:22:24.600 can simply block a law if they don't like it, like we've been seeing in the US with Donald Trump's

00:22:29.720 agenda. You just have one or two federal judges throwing spanners in the world. That can't happen in the UK.

00:22:34.280 You also don't have the separation of the legislature and the executive, right? So you don't have a

00:22:42.400 White House and a House of Representatives. All the powers are in Parliament, in the House of Commons

00:22:47.500 especially. And you don't even have a powerful upper house in Parliament because the House of Lords,

00:22:54.360 the upper house, is not democratically elected. They have very little legitimacy. And as a result of

00:22:58.680 that, they have very little power. So all power in the UK is concentrated in the democratically

00:23:04.720 elected body of the House of Commons. And it's very easy for parties to win large majorities in

00:23:10.220 the House of Commons. They can't really be blocked by sort of moderate coalition, not even moderate

00:23:15.060 coalitions, but regime coalitions that you see happening in Europe. For all those reasons, it's

00:23:20.680 actually possible for a serious party of reform, a party that's dedicated to rebuilding the political

00:23:28.320 consensus from the ground up, from completely resetting and reversing on all the mistakes of

00:23:35.020 the last few decades. That is quite possible in the UK. I think that's one of the reasons why they're

00:23:39.840 so nervous about it, because it's kind of unique in the Western political world that they are able to

00:23:45.800 reset so easily, just overturn a previous consensus so quickly without any sort of other institution

00:23:52.320 standing in their way, if you have the right government. And the way to get the right government

00:23:57.560 is to have an election. And the way for an election to elect a reforming government, a radical government,

00:24:04.380 is for the people to be allowed to organize and speak freely online. That's what they're trying to stop.

00:24:09.760 Wow. You've been so generous with your time. And I know you have to go. And I know I've kept you

00:24:13.960 too long, but please let me ask you one last question. What practical advice would you have

00:24:19.360 for Canadians? And frankly, for me and Rebel News, because we're not just news people, we're activists.

00:24:24.580 How can we get the attention of the White House or the State Department on censorship here?

00:24:31.460 President Trump was talking about it when he met Keir Starmer. He was talking like it's exciting to see

00:24:37.220 him do it in the UK. How do we get America to care about Canada? Because we need the help.

00:24:42.300 I think what's really critical to understand with all of these laws, whether they're in Canada,

00:24:47.140 the UK, or the European Union, is that their ultimate target is not merely the citizens of

00:24:51.160 their own country. Their ultimate target is America and American citizens as well. It's

00:24:55.620 American free speech that they also want to shut down, because they realize that they can't let

00:25:00.700 America fall to anti-regime forces. If that happens too many times, then eventually the regime and its

00:25:07.360 allies all over the world will fall to similarly reformist governments. And that'll take away all

00:25:12.100 their power, it'll take away all their wealth. So a lot of this is designed to stop free speech,

00:25:17.320 not just in Canada, the UK, or Europe, but also in America itself. That's why you have in the

00:25:22.660 Canadian law, you mentioned, a percentage fine on global revenues that could cripple any tech company.

00:25:29.200 And that's exactly the same provision that you'll see in the UK Online Safety Act,

00:25:33.220 which has a 10% fine on revenues, or in the European Union's Digital Services Act, which has

00:25:38.220 a 6% fine on global turnover. This is how they're going to make sure that American tech platforms,

00:25:43.680 American companies, are forced to install these censorship systems that can then be used against

00:25:49.260 Americans as well.

00:25:51.600 Alan, I'm so grateful for your time. It goes so quickly, but I could talk to you for hours. I know

00:25:55.580 you've got real work to do fighting for freedom online. We're so grateful to you. Good luck,

00:26:00.260 keep it up, and we'll be watching. Thanks, Ezra. Good to be on.

00:26:04.180 Right on. There he is, Alan Bakari, Managing Director of Foundation for Freedom Online.

Rebel News Podcast - August 04, 2025

EZRA LEVANT ｜ Will America save free speech around the world through Big Tech？

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