Rebel News Podcast


INTERVIEW： Dr. Dennis Modry on Western alienation and separation


Summary

When Dr. Dennis Modry was on the show a few weeks ago, he hinted that he had some opinions about Western Separation. And I am ready to hear them. He's back on The Gunn Show with Dr. Sheila Gunn-Reed to talk about it.


Transcript

00:00:00.000 Oh, hello, Rebels. You're listening to a free audio only recording of my weekly Wednesday night
00:00:05.260 show, The Gun Show. Now tonight, my guest is Dr. Dennis Modry. He was on the show a little while
00:00:11.520 ago talking about what he thought were the failures of the province of Alberta's pandemic
00:00:17.660 response. And when he was on the show, he hinted that he had some opinions about Western separation
00:00:24.960 and I am ready to hear them. So he's on the show tonight. If you like listening to the
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00:01:33.500 Is Western separatism the answer to preventing yet another bungled response the next time a pandemic
00:01:40.080 comes along? A doctor who's already been highly critical of the province's pandemic response
00:01:44.500 sure thinks so. I'm Sheila Gunn-Reed and you're watching The Gunn Show.
00:02:05.740 Now, a few weeks ago, I had Dr. Dennis Modry on the show. Dr. Dennis Modry is a highly respected,
00:02:11.540 highly accomplished heart and thoracic surgeon here in Alberta. He's retired, but he did perform his
00:02:18.720 first heart transplant surgery at just age 34. I'm clearly not doing enough with my life. Anyway,
00:02:26.460 when Dr. Modry wrote an open letter to Premier Jason Kenney, critical of the province's pandemic
00:02:32.020 response and not just being a critic, but offering a solution and an off-ramp for change,
00:02:37.240 I wanted to hear from him because I felt like he had a very unique perspective in all of this as a
00:02:43.480 doctor. But there's so much more to Dr. Modry. He's someone that I would describe as a conservative
00:02:49.980 insider. He was on Premier Ralph Klein's finance committee when Ralph Klein paid down the Alberta
00:02:56.660 debt to zero. Modry sat on the finance committees for Premiers Lougheed, Getty, Klein,
00:03:04.480 and Stelmack. And he's also on the Wildrose Independence Party of Alberta Executive Board.
00:03:12.480 So he went from being someone who was working with Premiers who were ready to keep Alberta in
00:03:20.680 Confederation to now wanting Alberta to leave. And I wanted to hear more about that. Last time Dr.
00:03:28.300 Dennis Modry was on my show, he told me that he would be interested in sharing with me his ideas
00:03:33.020 about Western separation and Alberta independence. And friends, I got a deluge of emails from my
00:03:38.980 viewers saying, Sheila, Sheila, Sheila, when are you having Dr. Modry back on? So joining me today
00:03:43.900 in an interview we recorded yesterday morning is Dr. Dennis Modry, pandemic response critic and
00:03:51.020 Western separatist.
00:04:06.980 So joining me now from Calgary is Dr. Dennis Modry. And many of you will remember that I had Dr. Modry
00:04:13.960 on the show a little while ago to talk about his criticisms of the province's pandemic response.
00:04:19.840 And his solutions, he offered an off-ramp to the government about how to change courses
00:04:27.500 with regard to the pandemic. They haven't listened to him because the lockdown has gotten far worse
00:04:35.240 in Alberta. But during that interview, Dr. Modry said that he would be willing to come back on the
00:04:41.940 show to talk about Alberta independence. And that was very requested. People were emailing me asking me to
00:04:49.000 have Dr. Dennis Modry back on the show. So he's been very generous with his time. He's back on.
00:04:55.640 Dr. Dennis Modry, thank you so much for joining me.
00:04:59.700 Delighted to be here once again, Sheila.
00:05:02.140 Now, before we get into your opinions and your, I guess, solutions for the Alberta independence movement,
00:05:12.980 I wanted to talk to you about what happened over the weekend here in Alberta, because you and I were both there
00:05:18.540 at the whistle stop for the protest on Saturday. And Chris Scott, the owner of the whistle stop,
00:05:25.700 was ultimately arrested for breaching the restraining order that the province got against him
00:05:32.020 and Glenn Carrott of United We Roll and ultimately all of us, you and me, because we are unnamed Jane
00:05:38.580 and John Doe's in that restraining order, preventing us from promoting, organizing or attending what the
00:05:46.160 province calls illegal public gatherings, which is the Orwellian term they're using to describe
00:05:52.040 political protests and peaceful assembly these days. I just wanted to get your opinion on what happened
00:05:57.320 at the whistle stop. And I guess what's happening to Chris now, because as we're recording this on
00:06:02.520 Tuesday morning, he's still in jail. Right. Well, you know, obviously, to most right thinking people,
00:06:13.920 people shouldn't be jailed for expressing their views. And after all, we do have constitutional laws
00:06:23.480 that protect our freedoms and our rights to free speech and to assembly. And so this was certainly
00:06:32.260 a tremendous breach of those civil rights. No, no question about that. And the argument with respect to
00:06:43.260 containing COVID-19 by preventing an assembly like this just doesn't hold water with respect to the data.
00:06:50.860 And this is all going to play out in court, of course, over time. The class action lawsuit has
00:07:00.840 been launched in Canada, the Supreme Court has agreed to hear it. And so we'll see where all of this goes.
00:07:07.080 But as I've always said, follow the evidence. And what does the evidence tell you? And this is one of
00:07:16.740 those areas in terms of following the evidence where many politicians, the premier, Dr. Hinshaw, et cetera,
00:07:27.380 are not following the evidence. They're following their preconceived views based on historical evidence.
00:07:34.920 And that evidence has been proven to be spectacularly inaccurate as exactly what the premier said with
00:07:44.700 respect to about Teresa Tan, releasing modeling that time after time is spectacularly inaccurate is not
00:07:53.520 a great way to instill confidence in the public. But this is what has happened. And so to a very large
00:07:59.680 extent, Dr. Hinshaw, the premier, the government, and many people in the public have a really
00:08:08.380 great problem with what is cognitive dissonance, that inability to change their mind based on new
00:08:18.260 evidence. And so I think it's tragic that Pastor Palowski was even jailed, particularly in the manner
00:08:25.280 that had happened, which is really offensive, by any stretch of the imagination. And then with Chris
00:08:32.480 still being in jail, I'm quite, I mean, I don't know, I haven't spoken to him or anything. But it's
00:08:39.500 very likely that he's standing up for his, his civil rights, his freedom, and, and he's not going to
00:08:47.840 accept whatever criteria have been imposed on him, would were the case for him to be released. I don't
00:08:59.280 believe he's willing to accept that, which is why he's still in jail and Pastor Palowski is not. I mean,
00:09:05.840 we, we all get to a breaking point in terms of what we're willing to do and not do. And I just think
00:09:12.920 it's tragic what, what is happening and, and what is going on. But there are solutions, you know, to
00:09:19.280 this. Independence is one of them. Now, I just want to make a point, though, before we move on to
00:09:24.860 independence. Thank you for that very excellent segue. But you spoke at the protest at the whistle
00:09:31.980 stop. And I think the point needs to be made that by speaking at that protest, and you could have been,
00:09:43.260 taken off to jail, just like Chris was, and I just want to commend you on your bravery for being,
00:09:49.280 you know, putting yourself out there like that. Because I think like me, you're probably a little
00:09:53.960 too pretty for jail. Well, I'm not, I'm not so sure about that. I said to my wife before I left,
00:10:02.860 you know, I may or may not be coming home. And, and I thought, well, you know, I've, I've, I've,
00:10:09.920 I've never experienced being incarcerated, except in my own home because of COVID-19. And I've
00:10:17.580 objected to that and, and have rebelled against being incarcerated in my own home. But I thought
00:10:24.120 if, if I was, it would be a weight loss fitness program for me while I was there. So
00:10:30.100 now, Dr. Modry, you mentioned independence, and that's why I wanted to have you on the show. And
00:10:36.840 part of your speech at the whistle stop over the weekend did touch on that. First, I want to go
00:10:42.500 back a little bit. What do you think has led to this fomenting of a Western separatist sentiment?
00:10:52.240 I think we haven't seen something like this in about 10 or 15 years. I think the election of
00:10:57.400 Stephen Harper extinguished a lot of it. Oh, what's happening now that's causing it to rise again?
00:11:04.860 Well, I think there's a number of things. And I, before I get into the details on that,
00:11:11.580 you know, it's, it's worthwhile thinking about, there is now the Maverick Party, which was
00:11:19.360 formerly Wexit Canada. So there's a tremendous view by Westerners that Canada is broken and can't be
00:11:31.260 fixed. And there are hundreds of thousands of, of members, maybe millions now who have signed on to
00:11:40.360 the Wexit Canada concept, whether it be through the Maverick Party, or the provincial independence
00:11:48.340 parties. So you and you look at what's happened in Saskatchewan with the development of the Buffalo
00:11:54.280 Party, which is an independence party, having been in prior to the last election, they were only
00:12:02.300 operational for three months, but they came very close to winning the ridings they were competing in.
00:12:06.880 Yep. So, and then you look in Alberta, there's the Alberta Advantage Party, the, the Alberta
00:12:13.720 Independence Party, I guess it's the Independence Party of Alberta, now they changed their name,
00:12:19.300 Wildrose Independence Party of Alberta. And these parties are growing their, their memberships. And
00:12:26.440 eventually, I think they will come together at some point prior to the next election. And then we have
00:12:33.420 also in Northern BC, discontent with Vancouver, Victoria, Southern BC, if you will. And there's a movement
00:12:43.540 there as well, even as much as aligning itself with, with Alberta. And I think, you know, realistically,
00:12:52.940 if independence is, is, is going to occur, it probably would start with Alberta, because I think it's,
00:12:59.620 as the youngest demographic, and is probably harboring the greatest anger against the draconian policies
00:13:08.000 of the East, suppressing Alberta. And so there's a lot that I can say about, you know, why we are here
00:13:19.580 where we are now. But fundamentally, I think it's both economic related, with a whole bunch of related
00:13:28.540 problems to the problem with the economy. And I think it's now even accelerated because of the response of
00:13:38.520 government to managing COVID-19 or poorly managing it in the way they have undertaken thus far. So, I'm
00:13:49.580 does that sufficiently start off the... It does. It does. I think a lot of people are Western
00:13:55.960 separatists, as you know, just in the way of economic survival. They see the federal government
00:14:03.820 basically legislating them out of a job, landlocking the industry, attacking the industry. And I'm not
00:14:10.620 just talking about oil and gas. I'm also talking about the neglect of agriculture. And every time
00:14:15.700 Justin Trudeau goes to India, Canadian farmers get slapped with a tariff on their exports to India.
00:14:21.820 But I do think a lot of people now, especially during this last year or 14 months with response,
00:14:32.000 like they are moving into the separatist camp because of the response to COVID by the federal
00:14:38.740 government, but also I think in large part in response to the COVID regulations placed on us
00:14:46.600 by Jason Kenney, who is an avowed federalist. So, some of that I think too is backlash to Jason Kenney
00:14:51.760 as well. So, let me pose this question and then answer it. Okay. So, the question is,
00:15:03.720 why independence? Okay. So, I want to start off that way. Why independence? The first thing people
00:15:09.860 need to understand is that throughout Alberta's history, no federal government or provincial
00:15:18.380 government has ever been able to protect Alberta's interests or assure Alberta's future prosperity.
00:15:26.580 And the way to think about the evolution from being part of Canada to not being part of Canada
00:15:38.180 starts off with an understanding of just prior to Alberta's joining Confederation on September 1, 1905,
00:15:52.440 it's important to put in context what the purpose was of Alberta joining Confederation at that time.
00:16:03.620 And so, I don't misquote. I want to make reference to what the Interior Minister Clifford Sifton said.
00:16:14.380 He was the Minister of Interior and in the Sir Wilfrid Laurier Liberal government in the late 1800s, early 1900s.
00:16:26.380 And he was fundamentally responsible for bringing Alberta into Confederation. And he said in 1904,
00:16:35.480 just prior to Alberta joining Canada, he said,
00:16:40.320 We desire, in fact, every patriotic Canadian desires that the great trade of the prairies shall go to enrich our own people in the East
00:16:51.180 to build up our factories and our workshops of Eastern Canada and contribute in every legitimate way to its prosperity.
00:17:00.860 Now, although he may have meant well, he assumed that Western interests would be subordinated to those of the East as just the natural order of things.
00:17:11.860 Right.
00:17:12.160 Fast forward to today, Justin Trudeau's throne speech endorsed that view without even Sifton's legitimate nod to the idea that the relationship should be mutually beneficial.
00:17:24.920 So, we've seen that, in fact, over time, it has not been mutually beneficial, maybe in some ways, partially, etc.
00:17:34.200 But when you go from Alberta's union with Canada in September 1, 1905, and you look at what happened over the ensuing decades,
00:17:47.360 it was pretty impressive because the immigrants that came here and the people that were already here, our native population, were incredibly hard workers.
00:17:58.280 They had that work ethic, they were entrepreneurial, and they were building Alberta, and they were building Alberta at a rate that was exceeding many of the other regions in Canada,
00:18:09.980 to the extent that by the late 70s, there were two momentous things that were occurring within Canada.
00:18:18.760 One of them was the developing sentiment in Quebec for secession.
00:18:27.680 That was an extremely important development that was underway in the late 70s.
00:18:34.900 Secondly, was the massive demographic shift that was occurring from elsewhere in Canada to Alberta,
00:18:44.460 as well as Alberta becoming the economic center of power, and all of the major banks were moving their head offices to Calgary.
00:18:55.620 That was the intention.
00:18:57.360 The province was absolutely booming.
00:18:59.620 And so we all know what happened in 1980.
00:19:06.380 And no matter what you think of Pierre Elliott Trudeau and his finance minister and at that particular time, Mark Lalonde,
00:19:17.080 along with Bay Street in Montreal, they came up with a brilliant plan, an absolutely brilliant plan.
00:19:24.460 They were going to keep Quebec in Canada.
00:19:27.580 By buying them, by basically bribing them to stay in Canada.
00:19:35.980 And they were going to use, the source of that bribe was going to be Alberta's wealth.
00:19:43.640 And that was the genesis of the national energy policy.
00:19:48.200 And so in perpetuity, billions of dollars flows from Alberta.
00:19:53.840 And as you know, it's somewhere in the order of $640 or $50 billion now has flown out of Alberta since 1980,
00:20:02.160 of which the majority has gone to Quebec.
00:20:05.340 And no matter what the output is from Alberta, Quebec is guaranteed $10 billion.
00:20:11.700 Now, it's very important to understand that what the purpose of the national energy policy was.
00:20:20.580 It was not just to keep Quebec in Canada.
00:20:25.440 It was also to ensure that in perpetuity, Alberta could never rise up again and challenge the East for economic power, demographic or economic power.
00:20:39.260 And we've seen how that has played out within the Constitution, for example.
00:20:47.800 We do not have representation by population, either in the House of Commons or the Senate.
00:20:55.180 It's incredibly skewed in favor of the East.
00:20:59.360 Even the Supreme Court is a problem from the perspective that you've got three judges from Quebec, three from Ontario, two from the West, one from the East.
00:21:09.920 Even that doesn't pass muster with respect to a demographic fairness in terms of justices.
00:21:21.440 But it didn't matter that the national energy policy occurred at that time from this perspective.
00:21:32.640 Although there were thousands of businesses that went under and there were suicides, businesses left the province or went under, like I said.
00:21:43.860 Despite all of that, some things started to occur.
00:21:50.080 And it's only related to that entrepreneurial spirit that Albertans have and their hard work ethic that the economy started to rebound again.
00:22:02.360 And particularly with respect to the Klein government, it was quite amazing, you know, what had happened.
00:22:10.900 Because as you know, when he left office, we had a surplus budget.
00:22:14.220 I think the government had $33 billion in assets and $17 billion in cash.
00:22:22.360 The Heritage Trust Fund was topped up, etc.
00:22:24.800 We were in great shape.
00:22:25.880 We had a AAA bond rating.
00:22:27.160 Now, throughout the Getty era and the Klein era and the Stelmack era, I was privileged to be on the finance committees of those three conservative governments.
00:22:40.720 And I got to know Ralph extremely well.
00:22:44.540 But despite the fact that Alberta was doing well, in 2003, I had an idea.
00:22:51.540 And I had this idea because I didn't ever want to see a national energy policy type problem occur again.
00:23:01.320 And I also had this idea because there was this ongoing dysfunctional relationship between Alberta and Ottawa, between Klein and Gretchen.
00:23:12.500 And so at the annual general meeting of the provincial government in 2003 in Red Deer, I was walking with Ralph, just the two of us, and I told him about the idea that I had.
00:23:27.300 And I said to him, I said, Ralph, if you were the, no, I said, I've got a solution, I think, to the dysfunctional relationship between Alberta and Ottawa.
00:23:38.100 Would you like to hear about it?
00:23:39.180 And he said, yeah, absolutely.
00:23:42.740 And I said, OK, well, it's based on this question.
00:23:46.080 If you were the president or the prime minister of the sovereign country of Alberta and Canada came to you and said, we would like Alberta to join Confederation under the current terms and cost of membership.
00:23:58.840 Terms in which, for example, we don't have control of health care.
00:24:02.220 We're losing control of our environment.
00:24:04.460 And we've got billions every year that are going to Ottawa.
00:24:07.580 Under the current terms and cost of membership, would you want Alberta to join?
00:24:13.640 And I loved his answer because it stuck with me forever.
00:24:17.840 And the only day I die.
00:24:19.420 He said, to ask the question is to know the answer.
00:24:22.860 Of course not.
00:24:23.580 So that was a great segue for me to then say, Ralph, if you wouldn't join Alberta under the current, join Canada under the current terms and cost of membership, do you not think that you and caucus have an ethical and moral and an economic responsibility to fix Alberta's role in Confederation?
00:24:45.580 He said, yes.
00:24:46.580 And I said, OK, well, I've drafted some material.
00:24:51.140 Let me put it all together and I'll and I'll bring it to your attention.
00:24:54.780 So in August of that year, I completed the document that I had run through academics like Ted Morton, constitutional lawyers like Jerry Shapur, politicians such as Don Mazinkowski and Gary Marr and many others, and numerous business people.
00:25:14.100 It was about 100 people that reviewed the document made made suggestions, and I titled the document Alberta at the Crossroads Status Quo Refederation Autonomy.
00:25:24.300 It's 61 pages.
00:25:25.380 Happy to send it to anybody, send it to you, and you can send it to anybody who would like to read it.
00:25:29.740 But the purpose of that document was to give Ralph and his government what he needed to fix Alberta's role in Confederation.
00:25:44.940 And if he was unable to fix Alberta's role in Confederation, then there was an alternative solution, which was autonomy.
00:25:54.680 And how would you get to that point?
00:25:57.040 What is the lever that you need to fix Alberta's role in Confederation?
00:26:02.180 There is only one, and that is a referendum on secession that is successful.
00:26:09.880 That is the only way it will happen.
00:26:14.080 Now, let me fast forward to where we are now.
00:26:20.580 We've seen what is likely to come in the future.
00:26:25.200 Justin Trudeau has stated that he wants to phase out our oil and gas industry.
00:26:33.540 That is so ridiculous, despite what all of the climate alarmists are saying, because we're never going to be without a need for the hydrocarbon industry.
00:26:47.700 As I've pointed out before, there are over 6,000 products that emanate from the oil and gas industry.
00:26:55.660 We would go back to the Stone Age without it.
00:26:57.700 Now, in October of this year coming up, our premier is going to have, at least he has said, that he is going to have a referendum on equalization.
00:27:14.440 And it's pretty obvious that Albertans are not real happy about equalization.
00:27:23.780 And he will get a mandate from Albertans to take this request of the federal government to open the Constitution to change equalization.
00:27:38.440 Now, if you think about that and you understand anything about what is necessary to achieve that change to the Constitution,
00:27:51.240 it requires support by vote in the House of Commons, support by vote in the Senate, and it requires seven of 10 provinces' legislatures.
00:28:08.780 Now, understand that seven of 10 provinces' legislatures representing 50% of the population also voting in favor.
00:28:17.080 Well, the demographic for voting power is Eastern Canada.
00:28:22.980 Right.
00:28:24.040 It also requires one other thing, and that's for Quebec not to veto it, because in the Constitution, the way it's set with respect to equalization,
00:28:33.860 they're guaranteed $10 billion a year out of Alberta.
00:28:37.720 Well, we're seeing what's happening with the gutting of our economy.
00:28:41.820 So it's simply impossible to achieve the second objective of that paper that I drafted, Status Quo Refederation Autonomy.
00:28:58.260 Refederation meaning fixing Alberta's role in confederation.
00:29:02.620 This is what Jason would like to do.
00:29:04.360 And I admire the idea, but if he's unwilling to put independence on the table and achieve a mandate from Albertans,
00:29:16.600 it's impossible, in my opinion, to change the Constitution to benefit Alberta, Saskatchewan, and the West in general.
00:29:25.600 So that is why I've come to the conclusion that independence is the only path forward.
00:29:34.660 So the next question you're probably thinking to ask me, and interrupt me at any time, is how would we achieve that?
00:29:42.440 Yes.
00:29:42.620 How would we achieve that?
00:29:43.360 Yes, that's exactly the next question.
00:29:45.320 I wanted to know the how, because as you rightly point out, there's a lot of posturing from Jason Kenney all the time
00:29:52.440 about fixing the relationship with Ottawa, standing up to Ottawa, but there's never an or else on the table.
00:29:58.580 So how do we get to the or else?
00:30:00.900 Well, exactly.
00:30:02.120 That's the point.
00:30:03.180 And I remind the listeners as well that no federal government and no provincial government
00:30:09.920 has ever been able to protect Alberta's interests or assure Alberta's future prosperity.
00:30:14.900 So to think that Mr. Kenney is going to be able to do that by being a nice person and using logic,
00:30:24.920 it just isn't going to work.
00:30:27.160 He needs the economic clout that comes with Alberta being able to control all of its own affairs.
00:30:35.620 And it can only happen if Alberta has a referendum on independence.
00:30:42.300 So now, how can this happen?
00:30:44.440 Well, as someone who was the major co-author of what you see on the website of the Wildrose Independence Party
00:30:55.300 in terms of the founding principles, the purpose, the vision, the mission, and the policies,
00:31:00.840 it's pretty easy for me to speak to this.
00:31:03.600 So fundamentally, what is required to achieve independence is for the independence movement
00:31:15.360 to be able to inform, educate, engage, and inspire all Albertans on the rationale for independence,
00:31:30.060 the merits of independence, how we would make it happen,
00:31:34.600 and how we would assuage the concerns of those people who would be concerned about Alberta independence.
00:31:44.360 And the, if you will, what has been drafted is the algorithm to achieve those objectives.
00:31:52.800 It's quite lengthy, but if I were to boil it down, what it would require, for example,
00:31:59.760 would be for the three independence parties of Alberta to come together under one banner.
00:32:04.560 And I think for those people who are independence-minded, they're virtually demanding that that occur.
00:32:11.920 How it will occur with respect to the various boards is another matter,
00:32:16.680 but I hope there's enough goodwill for that to take place.
00:32:22.740 Either prior to a merger such as that, or with the three of them working independently together,
00:32:30.380 what is required is for the independence movement to influence several hundred thousand people in Alberta
00:32:42.600 to buy into independence as the only path forward to improve their quality of life,
00:32:50.420 to be the best place to start a business, start a family, and live life, you know,
00:32:59.920 with freedom and self-determination.
00:33:03.600 So one of the things that has to happen is that hundreds of thousands of people
00:33:08.800 need to align themselves with the independence movement.
00:33:13.260 Pick your party.
00:33:14.440 Personally, I think WIPA is way ahead of everybody else.
00:33:16.960 The Wild Rose Independence Party of Alberta is way ahead of everybody else.
00:33:20.260 I think there are around 7,500 members at this point in time,
00:33:24.660 and it's been growing fairly rapidly.
00:33:27.120 So I'm very pleased with that.
00:33:28.380 But apart from that, all of the CAs need to be set up, the constituency associations,
00:33:40.160 and again, this begs the question of the three parties coming together.
00:33:45.340 But finally, it requires resources.
00:33:49.160 People have to be willing to support the independence movement,
00:33:55.080 because how do you get the message out to all Albertans with respect to the rationale
00:34:02.440 for independence, the merits of independence, how we'll make it happen,
00:34:05.720 and how to assuage the concerns?
00:34:07.340 How do you get that message out when the mainstream media doesn't carry it?
00:34:11.860 So you're going to need billboards and taking out advertisements and papers,
00:34:17.420 newspapers, whatever is required to buy time within the mainstream media.
00:34:24.540 And, you know, media such as Rebel News and the Western Standard and True North, etc.,
00:34:32.520 are doing a fantastic job, but they have a limited readership.
00:34:36.260 I mean, it's large, but it doesn't get to all Albertans.
00:34:40.180 And Alberta has to be the region that leads the independence movement in Canada,
00:34:45.300 in terms of Western Canada, in my opinion.
00:34:49.080 So it takes signing up members, and it takes resources to get that message out.
00:34:57.920 And that's how it can happen.
00:35:01.040 There's a lot more detail in there, you know.
00:35:05.300 And one of the things that I get challenged with from time to time is,
00:35:08.880 well, how do you deal with certain issues such as being landlocked,
00:35:12.580 or how do you deal with vote splitting, etc., etc.
00:35:14.840 And there are 15 items or 15 points that we've identified for which we have
00:35:22.860 what I think are very cogent responses.
00:35:27.280 So they're not all firmly fixed in my head, but I have them here.
00:35:31.200 It's just that it would take a long time to go through all of that.
00:35:34.000 Sure.
00:35:34.360 I was thinking about that the other day with regard to the Alberta independence movement.
00:35:39.220 We get a lot of people saying, well, but what do you do about this?
00:35:47.920 And what do you do about that?
00:35:49.320 And looking back, the Quebec independence movement,
00:35:53.000 they sort of addressed all those how, the fine details of how.
00:35:59.560 And they got their movement to the point of, well, do they really want to stay,
00:36:03.660 or do they really want to go?
00:36:05.320 They had taken care of all the, what do we do about the RCMP?
00:36:10.220 What do we do about the military that are stationed here?
00:36:13.280 Should we vote for independence?
00:36:15.300 What do we do about the pension plan?
00:36:18.060 They already dealt with that.
00:36:19.780 So I guess my question is, when people ask those questions,
00:36:26.800 are we ready to give those answers to the point where that it's not even a question anymore?
00:36:34.740 Because it became at some point not a question when dealing with Quebec.
00:36:39.400 Yes, I absolutely think so.
00:36:42.060 I think the arguments in favor of independence,
00:36:46.920 in terms of dealing with all of those 15 points,
00:36:51.240 are very cogent, very easy to understand, and are very persuasive.
00:36:57.560 And the point that I'm getting at here is that messaging needs to get out.
00:37:02.780 And it will get out.
00:37:06.780 And I mean, really, what more can we do?
00:37:11.040 You know, let's take, for example, just a couple of things.
00:37:17.840 Take pensions, for example.
00:37:19.080 People are concerned about their pensions.
00:37:20.820 They don't need to be concerned about their pensions.
00:37:23.120 For example, right now, we're overpaying into the Canadian pension plan $3 billion a year,
00:37:29.340 which is not recognized as pension funds eligible for Albertans.
00:37:35.320 It just goes to the general conference.
00:37:37.000 So we're overpaying pensions.
00:37:38.180 But people who are pensioners, they will still get their pension.
00:37:45.020 Because what we don't know yet is in negotiating the final terms of separation,
00:37:52.420 does for people who have Canada pension plan right now and old age security,
00:37:59.500 do they want to just keep it from Canada?
00:38:03.660 Or will Canada negotiate with Alberta and say, you guys take it back.
00:38:08.940 We'll give you X amount of money, which is your component of it.
00:38:14.060 And then Alberta runs the Alberta pension plan and the Alberta old age security plan,
00:38:21.460 but has more money to put into it.
00:38:23.500 So those negotiations haven't taken place yet.
00:38:27.880 But for example, if a retired individual simply wants to keep their Canada pension plan
00:38:35.780 and their old age security, it doesn't matter if they're living in France or they're living in South Africa,
00:38:41.220 they're living in China or they're living in Alberta.
00:38:43.860 They're still going to get their pension, even if Alberta is a sovereign nation.
00:38:49.860 So when you think about it from that point of view, people don't need to be concerned about pensions.
00:39:00.300 Just as one example.
00:39:02.060 Sure.
00:39:02.260 And I think the other example people use a lot is, oh, well, you know, Alberta's landlocked.
00:39:07.200 And for me, I look at that and say, well, I'd much rather have a sovereign Alberta negotiating
00:39:14.400 with the United States for pipeline access than have it go through Justin Trudeau's ineptitude.
00:39:22.100 Well, let's take that one.
00:39:24.720 And I'll give you all of the arguments against that.
00:39:27.880 Because I think, you know, we could go through all 15 concerns, such as landlocked,
00:39:32.660 vote splitting, pensions, collection of taxes, engagement of the Indigenous population,
00:39:36.820 abortion, consolidating the independence parties, supremacy of God, family and business,
00:39:41.500 travel, firearms, et cetera, policing and military, possible flight of business and capital, et cetera.
00:39:48.540 We could drill down on all of those.
00:39:50.940 But let's just talk about being landlocked.
00:39:54.880 So we're already land slash policy locked, right?
00:39:59.880 It's both.
00:40:00.980 But we're mainly policy locked right now because we can't get our natural resources to Tidewater
00:40:07.400 with, as we've seen, because of Bill C-69 and Bill C-48.
00:40:16.240 Now, you're right.
00:40:17.640 Most trade goes south.
00:40:18.880 So the next thing is, is it wouldn't really be in Ottawa's interest to effectively embargo
00:40:26.360 Alberta, as much as leftist governments on Ottawa and several provinces might protest.
00:40:31.400 They still need Alberta's energy.
00:40:33.400 Without it, energy prices across Canada would certainly skyrocket.
00:40:36.840 And we're going to see that with respect to, I think it's the colonial pipeline in the U.S.
00:40:43.420 that was hacked.
00:40:45.000 Yes.
00:40:45.400 And there's gas stations now down there right now that are on that line.
00:40:51.260 And a whole bunch of states are on that line.
00:40:54.840 Can't get fuel to allow people to come and fill their car up.
00:41:00.920 But anyhow, as an independent nation, Alberta would have the legal and political right to
00:41:05.280 play hardball with Ottawa to force market access.
00:41:07.980 As a province, all Alberta can do is complain.
00:41:12.160 Fear tactics to quell Western sentiment for independence.
00:41:16.360 Well, that's definitely going to be used.
00:41:21.800 But at the same time, you know, we just have to not be fearful.
00:41:27.040 We can't be worse off than we are now.
00:41:31.560 I mean, like I said, we're already policy locked.
00:41:33.800 So how can it get worse?
00:41:35.200 We know that the intention is to shut down the Alberta oil and gas industry.
00:41:40.140 So if we do nothing, that is exactly what is going to happen.
00:41:44.020 So who knows how negotiations would go following independence for Alberta?
00:41:49.980 Personally, I think they would go very well.
00:41:52.060 Thanks to the First Nations, if Canada is divisible, then provinces are as well.
00:41:57.340 For example, if the population north and east of Hope, BC, voted for independence, would
00:42:02.180 the southwest population and Vancouver Island residents deny the northwest to access ports
00:42:07.720 at Prince Rupert, Kitimat, and Stewart?
00:42:09.900 This would give Alberta port access if we were independent.
00:42:15.600 The United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea in 1982 provided rights for landlocked
00:42:20.940 states to the sea, Articles 124 and 125.
00:42:27.100 International law does provide leverage.
00:42:30.480 Take Switzerland, for example.
00:42:32.260 Landlocked country has no problem getting its products.
00:42:35.500 If it's necessary to deal with an intransigent Canada or British Columbia, we can always block
00:42:40.120 east and west traffic of goods and services and people.
00:42:43.920 But again, this gets to the point.
00:42:45.880 It doesn't serve anybody's good doing that.
00:42:48.540 We could also be assisted, although I'm not sure where we are with this anymore, by certain
00:42:57.620 U.S. regions with respect to Keystone, as well as access to tidewater via the Gulf of Alaska.
00:43:04.060 But the final point is it's sort of the definition of insanity.
00:43:08.480 Given that no federalist Alberta government has ever been able to protect Alberta's interests,
00:43:13.120 like I said before, a vote for the UCP or the NDP will simply perpetuate the ongoing destruction
00:43:19.420 of our economy and the devastation of Alberta's livelihoods until we really truly are a have-not
00:43:26.400 province.
00:43:28.160 And I think only an independent Alberta can reverse that trend.
00:43:32.440 And is there a chance, is there a slim chance that we could remain in Canada?
00:43:40.380 Yeah, there's a slim chance.
00:43:42.080 But do we want to remain in Canada as an impoverished region?
00:43:46.520 Or do we want to remain in Canada as a full partner where we control our own destiny and
00:43:53.620 we have control of our natural resources?
00:43:57.260 We have the ability to be more competitive with respect to how we provide health care at
00:44:04.980 less cost with greater access.
00:44:06.800 And the only way to improve Alberta's role in confederation, really, is if you have the
00:44:16.040 hammer of a mandate from Albertans on independence.
00:44:21.300 That's the only lever that we have that will bring them to the table.
00:44:27.760 Bending down and begging on one knee or even two knees and begging for help isn't going to
00:44:36.780 cut it.
00:44:37.420 Look at what Jason did when he asked for $6 billion back.
00:44:41.740 He got $700 million.
00:44:43.820 So, you know, and this kind of thing is going on and on and on.
00:44:49.220 And it has for the last 115 years.
00:44:54.720 And I don't see why it will change.
00:44:57.800 The interests of the East will always subordinate the interests of the West.
00:45:03.760 Um, and there's not a thing that we can do it to do about it.
00:45:08.260 It's really the tyranny of democracy, you know, where the, uh, the voting power is in
00:45:13.900 the East and there's not a thing we can do about it.
00:45:17.100 You know, this next election will be really fascinating to see a provincial election will
00:45:21.920 be fascinating to see what, well, federal first, because the federal one is coming.
00:45:25.240 And, uh, but I will predict that, uh, the liberal party won't get one vote out of Saskatchewan
00:45:31.220 or Alberta.
00:45:32.320 No, no, I don't think so either.
00:45:34.020 And it won't matter one bit to the liberals.
00:45:36.340 And that's the problem with confederation.
00:45:39.160 Now, I guess the question remains, will our own government allow us to ask this question
00:45:46.080 of ourselves?
00:45:47.120 Should we stay or should we go?
00:45:49.820 Do you mean the UCP government?
00:45:51.560 Mm-hmm.
00:45:52.120 Yeah.
00:45:52.540 Well, you know something I, I, I've thought about this.
00:45:55.320 Um, and you know, one of the meetings that I had with Jason Kenney, uh, prior to the provincial,
00:46:03.720 last provincial election, uh, we met at the mark and I brought two documents to give him.
00:46:08.420 One was the document that I drafted for Ralph, um, Alberta's role, um, uh, yeah, improving
00:46:15.500 Alberta's role in confederation status quo, refederation autonomy, that 61 page document
00:46:20.680 I gave to him.
00:46:21.740 And I also discussed with him the question that I posed to Ralph as well.
00:46:25.240 And I gave him a document, document about Medicare is killing us, re-engineering the health
00:46:29.460 Canadian healthcare system.
00:46:30.640 And, um, and at that, at that, at that particular time, um, I thought that, uh, Jason, um, was
00:46:41.920 far more strategic, um, than, and maybe I'm missing something here, but then what I've seen
00:46:50.340 so far, but he is a master politician.
00:46:52.980 So think about, um, what happens over the course of the next, uh, 18 months.
00:46:59.760 Let's say, for example, the Wildrose independence party has signed up 300 or 400,000 members to
00:47:06.940 it.
00:47:07.180 Now, when, when the UCP party was elected, I think they had 130,000 members.
00:47:13.140 Um, but what would, what would he think if there were three or 400,000 members signed
00:47:19.980 up with the Wildrose independence party?
00:47:22.100 So being a, uh, a master strateg, uh, uh, strategist, a master strategist, and I think he is a pretty
00:47:33.620 good strategist.
00:47:34.300 Uh, he could simply say after the equalization referendum, uh, which he will win, but he'll,
00:47:42.740 he won't get any traction with Ottawa.
00:47:45.180 I'm convinced of that.
00:47:46.240 He could simply come to Alberta, Albertans and say, you know what, folks, I've tried my
00:47:52.420 best to fix, um, our relationship, uh, with Canada.
00:47:57.420 I've tried my best to fix equalization.
00:48:01.600 They're not willing to do anything about it.
00:48:04.780 Um, I've come to a point where I believe that our only path forward, uh,
00:48:12.740 um, or that we have to take a new path forward outside of confederation.
00:48:18.700 I mean, he could get to that point.
00:48:21.100 Sure.
00:48:21.400 Um, but whether he will or not, I, I, I just don't think he will.
00:48:26.220 I mean, he isn't about federalist and, uh, but you know, it's, it's like I say, take the
00:48:32.940 whole concept of cognitive dissonance, the inability to change your mind based on new
00:48:38.340 information.
00:48:39.120 Does he have cognitive dissonance with respect to moving on COVID-19?
00:48:44.920 It would appear that he's been conflicted, right?
00:48:49.000 Because sometimes he said, well, you know, we made a mistake on lockdowns, but here he
00:48:53.420 is again.
00:48:53.880 So does he have cognitive dissonance with respect to the whole concept of independence?
00:48:59.580 Maybe, but maybe he could overcome that and recognize that independence is really the best
00:49:07.420 path forward, uh, for Alberta.
00:49:10.120 Um, I can't say, um, you know, half the time, I don't know what I'm thinking, nevermind what
00:49:15.740 he's thinking, you know?
00:49:17.140 So, uh, so anyhow, um, I don't know if that sufficiently answers your question regarding the,
00:49:23.940 the current government, um, I, there are people in caucus that I know of that are very strong
00:49:30.940 supporters of independence.
00:49:32.560 Um, and maybe not so much as independence from the perspective of leaving the, the commonwealth,
00:49:41.620 but they very much are with respect to leaving Canada.
00:49:46.360 Yes.
00:49:47.180 I've heard that too, um, in some private conversations with some members of Jason Kenney's
00:49:51.900 caucus that, and, and they're like anything, there's a, uh, a diversity of views on what
00:49:58.680 independence means.
00:49:59.640 Does it mean more autonomy within Canada?
00:50:02.140 Well, I think that's, that ship has sailed that Ottawa is never going to let us have that.
00:50:06.560 Does it mean joining the United States?
00:50:08.820 Does it mean leaving the commonwealth?
00:50:10.420 Does it mean being an independent country within the commonwealth?
00:50:13.320 I think those are all discussions that, um, people will have, I think, um, within the
00:50:19.120 separatist movement, I think probably over the next 18 months to two years, uh, Dr. Dennis
00:50:24.720 Modry, thank you for being so generous with your time.
00:50:27.580 I think we're approaching about 50 minutes together.
00:50:32.080 Once again, once again, I, it's wonderful.
00:50:34.740 Um, I have to do very little talking, um, and a lot of listening, which is great for me.
00:50:39.580 Uh, you have a lot to say and it's very fascinating.
00:50:41.820 Um, I wonder what we can have you on next to talk about.
00:50:46.820 Well, I don't know.
00:50:48.020 I mean, um, how COVID-19 can screw up a, uh, retirement.
00:50:52.760 That would be one I can speak well to, you know, no, I don't, I, I don't know.
00:50:59.140 I think it's going to be an ongoing evolution with respect, not only to COVID-19 and with respect
00:51:03.920 to independence and, you know, certainly, um, you know, it would be, uh, not unreasonable
00:51:11.440 to talk in more detail about things pertaining to the rationale for independence, uh, the
00:51:18.500 merit, the merits of independence, you know, how people's lives can be dramatically improved
00:51:25.160 at every single level, um, and how, how independence even appeals, uh, to, um, people who are within
00:51:35.380 the NDP, um, um, and the unions, I mean, you know, workers want jobs, unions want employees
00:51:44.560 who have jobs, what, what generates that a booming economy, what's the best way to achieve
00:51:50.080 that.
00:51:50.540 And so, so I think the answers, uh, to a very large extent, um, to all of this, uh, can
00:51:59.360 be a subject for another conversation.
00:52:01.940 I look forward to it.
00:52:02.780 Thank you so much for your time today, Dr.
00:52:04.600 Modry.
00:52:06.380 Great.
00:52:07.120 Thanks a lot, Sheila.
00:52:07.920 Thanks.
00:52:08.440 All the best.
00:52:09.360 And goodbye, everybody.
00:52:10.500 I think the independence movement in Alberta has a bit of a communication problem right
00:52:23.160 now.
00:52:23.420 And in Quebec, they were able to get past the how of how it would all happen to be able
00:52:31.060 to ask the question.
00:52:32.400 And I think that's the stage the separatist movement is at in Alberta.
00:52:37.340 People are asking how, and if they are able to answer those questions, then I think it's
00:52:43.840 time to ask the question, should we stay or should we go?
00:52:49.320 Well, friends, that's the show for tonight.
00:52:51.100 Thank you as always for tuning in.
00:52:53.220 I'll see everybody back here or wherever I might be, but at the same time next week.
00:52:59.680 And remember, don't let the government tell you that you've had too much to think.
00:53:07.340 I'll see you next week.