In this episode, Jeremy Wiseman is joined by Jerry Coria to discuss the latest developments in the Middle East and how they impact gold and precious metals in general. They discuss the impact of the Iran conflict, the $14B in redemptions from private funds and central banks' continued purchases of physical gold.
00:00:29.280We'll see what the outcome is politically in Canada.
00:00:32.520There's a lot of frustration and, again, a lot of uncertainty overall.
00:00:37.080And I feel like this is a good thing to talk about in terms of precious metals because we don't predict the future at Guildhall Wealth, but we certainly help people position for it.
00:00:49.520And let's talk about all of the things that are uncertain.
00:00:52.540Of course, along the way here, we'll discuss connecting the dots of things that we are seeing, for instance, redemptions in private funds, as well as central banks continue to acquire physical gold, and we'll give you a story on that.
00:01:09.860But let's get back to this idea of uncertainty.
00:01:12.080You know, Jerry, there's a lot of different narratives out there.
00:01:14.920A lot of, you know, everyone seems to have an answer.
00:01:17.900They know what the outcome is going to be.
00:01:19.760Some people are negative about the outcome, that there's going to be a lot of money printing, the stock market's going to crash, very, very gray sky. Others are very positive about the future. They think we're on the verge of the Middle East peace, and that could mean prosperity and growth.
00:01:41.280What's been your feedback throughout the week? And also, what's your take with regard to how gold should be navigating these type of waters?
00:01:48.560Yeah, I think it's very important to know the role of gold and the why. I think when we see the trend of following the central banks around the world, around the globe, continually buying gold, the important reserve that is decoupled away from currencies that are uncertain, certain correlations have totally broken down.
00:02:11.160the Canadian dollar used to be a commodity driven currency now that oil goes up the Canadian dollar
00:02:17.800is going down bonds as well doesn't offer that diversification any longer which is why
00:02:23.080even institutions like Goldman Sachs have allocated a position into gold for their clients
00:02:29.140things have changed rapidly and in this change of dynamic gold is that fundamental gold is that
00:02:37.700foundation where things change and uncertainty abounds gold is that certainty that people need
00:02:44.600countries need even companies major corps you mentioned redemptions and we're gonna get into
00:02:50.840that i think that's a huge one you want to have access to your funds and ultimately that's what
00:02:56.980gold and silver physically owned unencumbered outside of the banking system provides to everyone
00:03:03.400Well, let's talk about that in terms of redemptions because we're covering a lot of topics here. Over the past week, we had over $14 billion in private funds looking to get redemptions. About $7 billion were honored. And there were a lot of capital controls, effectively. There was a lot of blocking of people getting their money back.
00:03:27.360And I'm sure I saw another one today. I'm sure there's going to be more redemption requests coming on board because it starts to feel like a bank run. I do wonder if there's a correlation between the Iran conflict and these redemptions as well. Like who is redeeming and why are they redeeming? What do they know? Do they know something or are they responding to emotion?
00:03:49.900And I think ultimately, you know, gold doesn't necessarily depend on an outcome, but we are seeing these redemptions. So how does that play into precious metals? I noticed Turkey was selling gold. So gold is liquid versus equities.
00:04:07.260yes sometimes so it is that the bottom line it's a liquidity mismatch there is lack of liquidity
00:04:14.820and when they're when the system begins to crack the oil that started to spike we had oil spikes
00:04:21.980we had margin uh tightening uh margin rates rising lease rates rising it is overall a theme
00:04:30.000of deleveraging anything that was used as speculative financials and a lot of this
00:04:37.600over speculation is being dried out so as funds are looking to sell assets you're going towards
00:04:45.660the liquid so people are looking to you know institutions are selling like turkey look to
00:04:49.740sell look to the most liquid asset class which is gold to raise some funds but overall they're
00:04:57.260continually buying. They have said that they're going to buy into the next few months. So nothing
00:05:01.960has changed. It's a move away from paper and into hard assets as collateral. As far as these
00:05:09.960redemptions go, who would have thought? Who would have thought that these institutions like Goldman
00:05:15.480Sachs, we have Morgan Stanley. Before it was private or smaller regional banks that had the
00:05:23.880issue last year but now we have moved into the the the goose egg the golden goose eggs nothing
00:05:30.360could go wrong with these institutions but no as soon as confidence cracks and the sentiment or
00:05:39.420confidence dries up they want to take their money out bottom line and again these the idea of
00:05:44.480sentiment is outcome driven and to find out that your your funds aren't available would you have
00:05:51.880that issue if you're holding investment precious metal products versus having physical gold and
00:05:59.880silver products could you have the same issues in in that market that's such an important question
00:06:04.940i think and people need to understand that what guildhall does it's a one-to-one ownership you're
00:06:11.900owning physical bullion gold and silver outside of the banking system but in your name you have
00:06:17.420title ownership of these bars unfortunately for the system and people that thought they had
00:06:22.880exposure to gold and had this wealth insurance that you're looking for liquidity they quickly
00:06:27.640realized that there are there are also derivatives many financials and instrument financial instruments
00:06:36.500in gold are overly printed the gold the physical gold to paper ratio is about for whatever one
00:06:45.720ounce there's about 200 paper ounces available so or printed so they're way off and as far as
00:06:53.680silver is concerned there's about three to four hundred paper ounces for every one ounce of silver
00:06:57.900so you don't want to be the last one to try to get out of that system gold and silver you don't
00:07:02.900have that issue remember gold is the largest market in the world which is what makes it so
00:07:07.900so special bearing the largest market cap in the world and silver as well it's a large market
00:07:12.960uh battling for about two or three spot on the on the market cap but you have the liquidity and
00:07:18.880that's what it comes down to yeah i think that the the key thing here is that if you're invested
00:07:25.400with a company a fund for instance and you're asking for liquidity there's a counterparty risk
00:07:32.020and they have the ability to say no redemptions we need the funds and they they hold the cards
00:07:36.680and they say listen that's the risk that you took on with physical gold i'm talking physical not an
00:07:42.800investment, it's a universal asset. It's a very homogenous asset. You can take it anywhere around
00:07:48.400the world and sell it anywhere. You know, people that have purchased product at a company across
00:07:54.520the country come to our offices and sell it to us, right? They might buy from, you know, anywhere
00:08:02.000around the country, around the world. And if it's LBMA approved product, you can liquidate it. And,
00:08:07.360you know, if it's not with Gildall, maybe it's with someone else. The point is, is that it's
00:08:11.180universal and you can take it anywhere versus there are investments where, you know, if you've
00:08:16.580bought it with a particular company, it, you have to buy it and sell it with them. If it's a pool
00:08:23.220account, you're buying and selling it with them. You can't take delivery from that. Or you, you
00:08:27.840know, if you do, it's a arduous process to do that. So we have to be, we want to create a
00:08:35.820distinction here or help people understand that there's a difference between investing and
00:08:41.960ownership. When you own physical bullion, that's yours. It's universal. It's private. You're
00:08:48.020keeping your sovereignty. You can take it anywhere around the world and you can sell it to multiple,
00:08:53.140multiple dealers versus when it's an investment, you're bringing on counterparty risk. And we're
00:08:57.700not saying that that's a bad thing. There's reasons why you would do that. Maybe to keep
00:09:03.680liquid maybe you want to trade it maybe you don't want to pay those costs to get into an asset and
00:09:09.940own it fair you know I explain it as hey well do you want to rent or buy that's right right if you
00:09:15.300want to rent then you don't have to come up with a down payment so there can be lots of reasons and
00:09:20.140lots of good reasons to have investments in the gold and silver area but I think the the core
00:09:25.880foundation should be physical that is universal that you can take and sell anywhere of course
00:09:31.940it's very liquid with guild hall as well and with guild hall we offer three ways to own physical
00:09:37.300gold and silver you can buy it direct take it home you'll self-store it you'll have lots of options
00:09:42.620in terms of selling down the road you can store it with us at lbma and irock approved accredited
00:09:52.120facility now it's cirrock i think and it's fully secured fully insured you can easily liquidate
00:10:00.960the product or buy more product on a phone call, whether you're in Canada or on vacation
00:10:06.240or somewhere else in the world, maybe you've decided to move. We've got lots of clients
00:10:10.340in different parts of the world now that call us up to sell some product here and there.
00:10:15.400And we can also offer it within a registered account. And with that,
00:10:19.340fully allocated, fully segregated, this is the key for both. It's held in a vault facility
00:10:25.600outside the banking system. This is key. This helps keep your own sovereignty. This makes
00:10:31.680sure that you have no counterparty risk. This is very important when you don't know what outcomes
00:10:36.060are. This is a situation you can control. And we do that in registered accounts, a TFSA, RSP,
00:10:44.140Lira, LIF, RIF. You hold the physical gold and silver. It's in the vault allocated to you. You
00:10:49.820can go and visit your product. You can deregister it and take delivery, which we have taken home
00:10:55.140clients do um you know they don't need their riff money so they say hey i'll take the physical
00:10:59.980product or what i like they take out the the riff withdraw or lift withdraw and they put it into
00:11:05.460their tfsa beautiful which is pretty amazing i love that they can do that or they take it out
00:11:10.380and they i've had clients talk about taking the product out and giving it to their grandkids yes
00:11:15.180so now we've got generational wealth and sell what you would like to sell as opposed to a riff
00:11:19.800in another institution away from guildhall you would have to liquidate to get that cash withdrawal
00:11:25.620that's the only option that you have whereas with us you can take the cash if you'd like option one
00:11:31.920or option two a very unique thing is take the physical out in kind and we help you with the
00:11:36.800entire process but i think jeremy going back to the whole redemption and this in the topic
00:11:41.640i think the key takeaway is what we've noticed in the trend is there's more and more institutions
00:11:47.940all of these institutions over the last two weeks there's there's a number of them um you know about
00:11:53.720seven or eight institutions major ones and it seems like every single day it's a domino effect
00:11:58.540a cascade of people looking to take their money out of the banking system we've seen that before
00:12:03.620during the convoy where a lot of people had their was worried about getting their bank accounts
00:12:08.560frozen but when we talk about keeping your metal your physical bullion outside of the banking
00:12:14.220system. What does that mean? It's really about undigitizing your wealth. As Jim Rickards pointed
00:12:19.440out years ago, he mentioned one of the biggest concerns and things that we need to hedge against
00:12:24.480is potential hacks, potential freezing of accounts, people looking to get unbanked before getting
00:12:33.120debanked or vice versa. Yeah. I had a client ask me today, we had a great meeting and he said,
00:12:37.660let me ask you, what if they hacked into your computer system? Could they buy and sell my
00:12:43.100metals right i said no because it's it's fully allocated in the vault this is a fully manual
00:12:50.260system and it's the computer has no effect on it we're not trading in ones and zeros it's fully
00:12:57.540physical and we're dealing in the physical realm i mean yes there's emails or whatnot but uh it's
00:13:03.300all it's all purely physical all of the purchases you can't hack physical absolutely not it's sitting
00:13:09.200there on the floor there is no freezing of those accounts if the lights go out after a while and
00:13:16.480once the lights go back on and the power goes back on your bullion will be there as opposed to banks
00:13:21.600not singling any bank out but it's all digital it's ones and zeros you've tried to take out more
00:13:26.840than ten thousand dollars cash out of your bank you can't get it because the numbers that you see
00:13:31.280there are just digital as jeremy mentioned ones and zeros binary code so it's all digital by
00:13:37.480holding physical you are decoupling and de um i guess decentralizing your wealth away from that
00:13:46.500system uh that is illiquid that is over leveraged in that we're seeing the cascading of events now
00:13:53.420the big issue with those funds is that they promised liquidity but they've built it on
00:13:59.320illiquid loans a lot of private capital um that are that is trying to be redeemed when too many
00:14:05.240people want out at the same time. Jim Rickards mentions as well that would be called an ICE 9
00:14:10.140event. We've seen the CME lockdown. They can just freeze your funds, and that's exactly what's been
00:14:15.640going on. Imagine that you try to take your money out, and they say, nope, come back in two to three
00:14:20.160years. And we are seeing the likes of BlackRock having to inject their own funds. They had to
00:14:26.340actually inject 400 million of its own money to meet these demands, these A clientele looking for
00:14:32.780their money right now well the cascade is happening the bottom line is with this liquidity mismatch
00:14:38.040when the liquidity dries up which is the case around the world with turkey selling
00:14:43.880it dries up in the credit markets and the playbook is always the same and gold reacts
00:14:51.180either way you need more intervention more currency printing is on the way the helicopter
00:14:57.900money is around the corner the federal reserve will need to cut interest rates sooner than later
00:15:02.520actually i say they had to cut yesterday well even scott besant came out and said interest
00:15:07.440rates should be lower exactly so ultimately more money printing is on the currency printing is on
00:15:12.680the way and that's why this matters to myself and the staff on guildhall we want you to get in touch
00:15:19.320to find out how you can own physical precious metals the right way outside of the banking
00:15:24.340system and it's all broker assisted there's no buying and selling without your help without our
00:15:28.840help we will be there for you to talk about the market and help you make the best decision on how
00:15:34.000to allocate with a balanced approach and i think jerry beyond the illiquid illiquid liquid let's
00:15:41.600just say liquidity issues beyond liquidity issues you have a lot of uncertainty right now with the
00:15:49.720conflict in the middle east the political situation here in canada and i think people are emotionally
00:15:58.000heightened right now. And I just want to remind our audience that gold is up over 900% in the
00:16:05.380last 20 years. And in the last 20 years, we have seen, while gold has risen, there was a 10-year
00:16:12.480bull market in gold where we saw a conflict in Afghanistan, a conflict in Iraq. We had the
00:16:20.240subprime crisis. We had quantitative easing. And gold went from about $300 an ounce to upwards of
00:16:27.840$1,900 an ounce. Then between 2012-13 to today, we've seen the everything bubble. We've seen
00:16:39.400low interest rates, negative interest rates. We've seen continued money printing. We saw a pandemic
00:16:46.200that led to, in Canada, the highest money printing per capita of any country. And the printing
00:16:53.700presses have just continued. And now we have another conflict. And again, we don't know what
00:16:58.340these outcomes are going to be. But through all of that, gold is up over 900%, silver's up over
00:17:04.360700%. And these aren't investments, these are assets, because you can't control outcomes,
00:17:09.940but you can control where you store your wealth. And clearly, over the last 20 years,
00:17:15.300the trend is your friend. Now, the question here, Jerry, for the future, whether it's gray sky or
00:17:21.420blue sky, which I'd like to move towards. Let's talk about some of the blue sky and the effects
00:17:26.260on silver. But where are we at today? If prices are up 900 or the value of gold is up 900%
00:17:34.240over the last 20 years, what kind of room is there to run moving forward, regardless of outcome,
00:17:40.500good or bad? Yeah. Well, either way, I think you pointed out what's certain is that gold
00:17:46.560acts as your hedge and acts as a performer when you position correctly in gold physically
00:17:54.380and another thing that is certain is the printing press it's the same playbook they're going to do
00:18:00.100in good times or in bad times if there is a crisis they print and if things are good it's usually
00:18:06.520because of that printing press providing extra stimulus into every single market so where are
00:18:14.520we headed. One thing's for certain, the U.S. Federal Reserve, which has the world's reserve
00:18:19.940currency and everything is still priced in U.S. dollars, all rests upon their shoulders and laps
00:18:25.660right now. The responsibility is theirs. They are caught between a rock and a hard place between
00:18:30.820keeping rates higher for longer because of higher oil or cutting interest rates. And all of these
00:18:38.580institutions right now that we mentioned before they require liquidity and when that occurs
00:18:45.320they're going to be slashing interest rates i think this evening they're going to be announcing
00:18:49.580the federal deficit and depending on that number there is a projection of bringing back the forecast
00:18:56.520and projections for further rate cuts remember at the beginning of the conflict all of these fed
00:19:01.640members reduce their expectations for interest rate cuts which is super bullish for precious
00:19:07.200metals by the way it weakens the currency there was definitely a counterintuitive reaction
00:19:11.680why do you think that was well in the metals market well when you have the the oil price
00:19:17.960then the narrative is is inflationary when you have higher oil that means it's inflationary the
00:19:24.580federal reserve has to get off their high horse and start and get to work which means keeping
00:19:28.820rates higher for longer which is pushing the u.s dollar up and gold and silver as a trade is
00:19:34.520negatively correlated to the u.s is to the u.s dollar so right now if you're newer to the market
00:19:40.600silver and gold are not acting like this crisis hedge i mean it's coming to right it's coming to
00:19:45.100life right now um it's acting like what it truly is though it's the deepest most liquid market in
00:19:51.980the world and when uncertainty abounds when when countries need liquidity and they need funds
00:20:00.320to to get by yeah they have to unfortunately sell their gold positions and repatriate get that gold
00:20:09.020back into your possession and that's another trend that we're seeing is repatriating get
00:20:12.900positioned in that goal well i mean we can talk about that i i think you know price is a real
00:20:18.800driver of when people get into the market you see more people buying at higher prices than you do
00:20:25.120through a fear factor of oh my gosh there's a conflict in the middle east i should be buying
00:20:29.380gold you just don't see that you know by the microcosm of your desk true you just don't see
00:20:35.080that you see people buy when the price is high they want to get into the market and if the price
00:20:39.600comes down it can be disappointing but i want to i i remind people all the time it's it is
00:20:45.820like they say in real estate it's time in the market you know uh there's been plenty of times
00:20:50.960we've bought at higher prices and you know if everyone is buying at higher prices that's when
00:20:57.220we are usually making more so we're buying it at higher prices but it never bothers me
00:21:01.200and i tell i i tell people who are new to the market especially that you know because when
00:21:07.380you're buying into the market you're always going to be price conscious and i was talking to a um
00:21:12.800a client the other day i said you're not going to remember what you paid in 10 years but you'll
00:21:18.120count how many ounces you have and what they're worth today right in 10 years so let's let's so
00:21:25.080with that note, you know, that made him feel better. Let's talk about some of the positive
00:21:29.740things. Let's say that things do end up positively in with Iran that there's that the peace talks are
00:21:36.360successful, the straits open, there's prosperity, there's peace. What does that mean for the metals?
00:21:43.020Is that bad for gold? Is it positive for silver? Great question. I think this couples into why the
00:21:50.640why the forecast still remain the same for major institutions we have michael oliver still calling
00:21:56.800the very you know the three to six hundred dollars silver price we still have forecasts for anywhere
00:22:02.260from 10 up to twenty thousand dollars u.s per ounce for gold all of these projections still
00:22:08.720remain and that's by the end of this year we have two important call options by the end of this year
00:22:14.220that point to silver ending the year at 500 us per ounce and gold over close to 20 000 us per ounce
00:22:23.300so the forecasts have not have not changed they haven't closed these positions they're still
00:22:28.700they're still there because why because these institutions understand the next move the move
00:22:35.700is to cut interest rates so you mentioned uh the situation in iran when that crisis subsides whether
00:22:42.500it be a ceasefire deal or some sort of deal oil prices will drop and the federal reserve will be
00:22:48.440free free from fighting that inflation the oil price hike as oil drops they are free to cut
00:22:55.740interest rates and they're going to be cutting rapidly and printing rapidly but what this means
00:23:01.000is it's inflationary and the u.s dollar could possibly hyper inflate and the that's not very
00:23:09.340that's not very blue sky jerry it is though the next step to how do we solve that problem of
00:23:16.240hyperinflating that currency you need to safeguard that currency move away from oil which is not
00:23:23.180collateral and the discussion is and it's a serious discussion of backing the u.s dollar
00:23:28.820with gold backing the m2 money supply with gold backing the debts with gold so back to the ratio
00:23:35.680of where it once was so so what you're saying is is that if if the conflict is in the rearview
00:23:42.360mirror then then the solutions to the monetary problems like the current monetary setup um
00:23:51.400gets back on the table and we have to then reassess where that is because it really ended
00:23:58.360in 2008 somehow you know they weakened at bernie's it i turned it into a verb um that they that they
00:24:05.960were able to kind of kick the can kick the can make it seem like this system's still alive printed
00:24:10.760money to back it and keep it afloat but it's reached its its end here and you've got to create
00:24:16.440a new monetary system and we don't know what that's going to look like but with all these central
00:24:20.920banks buying gold all roads seem to be leading there absolutely they continue to buy consistent
00:24:27.880buying you have um turkey selling as you know as a result of their need for for liquidity but you
00:24:34.380have the czech republic continually buying 36 consecutive month you have china going into the
00:24:40.680market very deep uzbekistan um france just repatriated talk about that a little bit that's
00:24:47.320a very interesting story and now when we think about taking profit uh france had gold stored
00:24:53.980in the u.s fed in new york yep um and what did they do they wanted their gold back so they aimed
00:25:02.040to repatriate or bring the gold back to france what did they really own in new york truth be
00:25:08.540told the gold was actually rehypothecated a number of times which means that's speculation we don't
00:25:14.260know for sure but they sold what they had yes they sold their position right and it generated
00:25:20.620roughly 13 billion dollars in profit and what did they do did they buy some other share did they
00:25:27.660invest somewhere else did they buy some land or did they invest in you know infrastructure for ai
00:25:34.120no they went right back into gold they purchased their the profits they used their profits and
00:25:40.160proceeds to purchase the physical gold from switzerland to bring it home so what does that
00:25:46.000tell us they took their profits from this paper instrument. I'm going to say it. It was a paper
00:25:52.720instrument that was in the Federal Reserve because their need to get the collateral back
00:25:57.940within their reserves was of the utmost importance. Understanding that the currencies are going to
00:26:04.100depreciate rapidly. It doesn't matter which currency you're in. All currencies are moving
00:26:08.820down versus the ounces it's basically a replay of 1971 and charles de gaulle france said we want our
00:26:17.340gold back and they said well we'll give you our dollars and then they turned around and said okay
00:26:21.860we're gonna have to take those dollars and buy the gold with it so you know how else can you
00:26:26.400speculate other than to say that for whatever reason they couldn't deliver the gold to france
00:26:33.160and they were forced to give them the cash.
00:26:51.960It says a lot about they see where the future's going.
00:26:56.600Maybe part of it is protecting their own sovereignty,
00:26:59.420knowing that, hey, there's a lot of chaos,
00:27:01.120A lot of counterparty risk out there. We talked about the wealth funds. They're feeling that too. If you own gold, you're outside the system, you have your own wealth, you're sovereign, you can now have a seat at the table to help make those decisions.
00:27:14.960And I think it's very key. They're the smartest people in the world. You don't have to like them. I get that a lot of them are governmental, and we can all take issue with government. But at the end of the day, they understand what's happening to the monetary system, and they see the forest for the trees. And I think it's important for us to follow that lead as well.
00:27:37.440On the silver side, I know we didn't get to much today on the silver side. But ultimately, if there is a good outcome from peace talks, and you have growth and prosperity, silver is an industrial metal. And ultimately, what that means is you're going to need the demand on silver is going to be immense. It already is six years of deficits, critical mineral list.
00:28:05.760They're talking about putting a floor under the pricing, which would be helpful for any sort of manipulation that could be occurring in the market and help us get to true price discovery.
00:28:16.380And I think as well, I know we've got just a few seconds left here, Jerry, but in terms of where prices are going, we're not yet in a price discovery place.
00:28:24.300You know, people are trying to figure out where the price of gold and silver should be in dollars.
00:29:04.960Silver and gold are very much undervalued.
00:29:07.540And understanding when they start printing and cranking up the printing press, the money system cracks, the paper system cracks, and the flow out of the riskier assets will flow into a finite market of gold and silver.
00:29:21.380a very small market in silver in fact which is the reason why bank of america is calling you know
00:29:27.440two to three fifty for silver this year focusing primarily on the silver to gold ratio so we use
00:29:35.280these metrics because unfortunately the measuring sticks are broken inflation measurements are
00:29:40.460broken we don't know what the currency supply is but you get control of your money when you take
00:29:46.240your money outside of the banking system you maintain that control the access the sovereignty
00:29:51.280and you decouple your wealth away from the whipsaws of the day-to-day conflicts conflicts come and go
00:29:57.260but your gold and silver will remain the same same for yourself and the future generations to come
00:30:03.540yeah you you you can print as much money as you want but you can't print gold
00:30:07.660ultimately gold is a safe haven it's got great performance and a long way to go so if you want
00:30:15.260to own physical gold and physical silver, contact Guildhall Wealth. We'll show you how to get
00:30:20.040involved in the market, whether you want to take it home or store it or even put it as part of your
00:30:24.740retirement portfolio. That does it for another edition of The Real Money Show. Thank you so
00:30:29.140much for joining us. Can't wait to speak to you soon.
00:30:31.480catch the real money show here on rebel news saturdays at 1 p.m if you've missed an episode
00:30:45.400you can also catch the real money show on our youtube channel at guildhallwealth or follow us
00:30:50.480on spotify and follow us on twitter as well um the number again 1-877-8-SILVER the website
00:30:57.420guildhallwealth.com learn how to have physical gold and silver in your portfolio and we look