Rebel News Podcast - Nations put their toughest human rights questions to China. Guess what Canada asked them...

00:00:00.000 Tonight, the countries of the world put their toughest human rights questions to China.

00:00:04.780 You'll never guess what Canada asked.

00:00:07.400 It's November 6th, and this is the Ezra Levant Show.

00:00:15.780 Why should others go to jail when you're a biggest carbon consumer I know?

00:00:19.580 There's 8,500 customers here, and you won't give them an answer.

00:00:23.300 You come here once a year with a sign, and you feel morally superior.

00:00:26.280 The only thing I have to say to the government about why I publish it is because it's my bloody right to do so.

00:00:37.060 Yesterday, I showed you the shocking news of Catherine McKenna serving as the vice chair of a committee of the government of the People's Republic of China.

00:00:47.920 That's her, on their government committee.

00:00:51.000 This isn't an international committee. This is not a bilateral Canada-China cooperation committee.

00:00:57.140 That would be fine.

00:00:58.900 This is China's own government agency whose explicit mission is to achieve China's national interests,

00:01:05.960 specifically the Communist Party's five-year plan.

00:01:08.440 It's right in their charter.

00:01:10.300 I've never heard such a thing of you, of a Canadian government minister working for a foreign country's government.

00:01:17.340 I mean, of course, it just adds to the crazy that Canadian taxpayers gave China $1.6 million a year for the privilege of McKenna working for them.

00:01:27.760 But, you know, we pay them, just to be clear.

00:01:31.600 But that's just money.

00:01:33.220 What about the ethics of having a Canadian cabinet minister working for the Communist Party of China?

00:01:38.600 It's unbelievable.

00:01:39.640 And, by the way, I haven't seen this reported anywhere else. Have you?

00:01:44.860 But it all sort of makes sense.

00:01:46.460 I mean, after all, China is Justin Trudeau's favorite country.

00:01:51.000 There's a level of admiration I actually have for China.

00:01:57.200 Because their basic dictatorship is allowing them to actually turn their economy around on a dime.

00:02:06.060 Their basic dictatorship.

00:02:07.720 Now, I have some more news for you today.

00:02:10.120 It's about human rights, something that Justin Trudeau says he cares about.

00:02:14.740 I mean, isn't that part of what being a liberal means?

00:02:17.900 Historically, at least. I think it does.

00:02:19.880 Liberal, the word, comes from the same Latin root as the word liberties.

00:02:24.700 Civil liberties.

00:02:25.620 It's something China has a lot of problems with. 0.99

00:02:27.720 They're the world's largest dictatorship.

00:02:29.420 They're a communist regime.

00:02:30.420 And although they no longer use many communist economic models, they certainly use communist methods of controlling people, spying on people, imprisoning people for political crimes, banning dissent, whether it's in the media or in politics or even religion.

00:02:45.320 There's no opposition party in China, of course.

00:02:47.260 There's no grassroots political groups.

00:02:49.260 It's the Falun Gong religious sect, which was briefly quite popular even amongst communist party members.

00:02:56.260 It scared the dictatorship so bad one day because they had this mass religious gathering that hadn't been detected by the regime.

00:03:04.360 So it was banned.

00:03:05.200 They just banned it out of panic.

00:03:06.280 I mean, remember, China is the country that sent tanks to dry over students having a democracy protest in the city square of Beijing.

00:03:16.740 So, yeah, how do you reconcile being a liberal and a China lover?

00:03:21.800 And by China lover, I don't mean loving the people or the culture or the language or the food. 0.85

00:03:27.520 If that's the definition, well, then I'm a China lover.

00:03:30.900 With Trudeau, though, he literally loves their dictatorship.

00:03:34.760 You heard him.

00:03:35.320 He loves their basic dictatorship.

00:03:37.660 He loves the worst thing about China.

00:03:41.240 He loves their secret police.

00:03:42.620 He loves their prison wardens.

00:03:44.060 He loves their spy systems.

00:03:45.580 He loves their gulags. 0.60

00:03:46.360 Sorry, if you love that part of China, their basic dictatorship, I guess that's the same way Trudeau loves that part of Cuba. 0.62

00:03:55.700 You actually hate the Chinese people, don't you? 1.00

00:03:58.980 Which brings me to our news today.

00:04:00.520 It's about this group, a human rights oriented NGO called UPR, which stands for Universal Periodic Review.

00:04:09.860 So it's a periodic review of human rights around the world.

00:04:12.900 They try to press governments to be more humane.

00:04:15.920 They focus on civil liberties.

00:04:17.860 So they're one of the good guys.

00:04:18.840 And they try to work with the UN and their functions.

00:04:22.080 They're based in Geneva, where the human rights machinery of the UN is.

00:04:26.060 It's an uphill battle for them, but good for them.

00:04:28.760 Okay, so let's focus on one narrow thing they do.

00:04:31.180 They ask countries to put questions about human rights.

00:04:34.600 And, of course, we're interested today in China.

00:04:37.360 So this is a list of questions proposed by different countries for China.

00:04:42.740 This is a document from this NGO called UPR.

00:04:46.220 Okay, are you with me so far?

00:04:47.640 Now, as you saw briefly there, countries put their advanced questions to China.

00:04:51.840 So they're giving them notice of the questions they're going to ask China about human rights.

00:04:56.300 So let's just start with the very first one on that list there, which happens to be Uruguay, which is a country in South America.

00:05:02.760 So Uruguay would like to know, I'm just quoting here, about what efforts have been made in the last years to ensure human rights defenders, journalists, and other civil society actors can carry out their work in a safe environment without fear of reprisals.

00:05:20.000 All right, that's not a bad question.

00:05:21.640 I mean, it's a bit limited in scope, but fair enough.

00:05:23.680 Okay, good question.

00:05:24.680 So Uruguay just had one question for China.

00:05:27.780 All right, let's keep going on the list, okay?

00:05:29.760 Next, as you can see, I'm just scrolling down here.

00:05:31.820 It's the United Kingdom.

00:05:33.740 Now, I don't propose to go through all of it.

00:05:36.100 It's too long.

00:05:37.680 But if you scroll through it slowly, you can see they ask about China's gulags in Xinjiang province.

00:05:44.600 They ask about the ethnic minority called the Uyghurs.

00:05:47.740 One of their questions is to, quote,

00:05:50.540 provide statistics on the numbers of those held involuntarily in the past five years.

00:05:56.980 That's a prickly question.

00:05:58.880 That's a good question.

00:05:59.620 The next question they have, by the way, is about Tibet.

00:06:04.180 I think that's good.

00:06:05.580 The next question, look at that.

00:06:07.200 They list a group of journalists and human rights activists by name,

00:06:11.720 and they demand their release without delaying.

00:06:14.740 That's getting pretty specific when you're naming actual journalists.

00:06:18.000 Then they get a bit more general.

00:06:19.360 This is the United Kingdom, by the way.

00:06:20.640 They ask about the full range of human rights in China, including, but not limited to, LGBT plus rights, women's rights and disability rights.

00:06:30.800 All right.

00:06:31.120 Now, frankly, I don't think those are as acute in China as elsewhere.

00:06:34.900 I mean, women aren't in gender apartheid in China like they are in Saudi Arabia or Iran. 0.99

00:06:39.740 My own sense is that disability rights, I mean, it's more of a question of poverty and a lack of resources to help people in China more than active discrimination.

00:06:50.040 I don't know about gay rights in China.

00:06:51.580 I sense it's likely more a cultural issue than a political issue.

00:06:54.740 But I just don't know.

00:06:55.840 When I think of gay rights, again, I think of places where they stone gays to death, mainly Muslim countries. 1.00

00:07:01.460 I don't think they do that in China.

00:07:03.760 But fair enough.

00:07:04.360 It's a question.

00:07:05.260 And then the last point, as you can see, this is the United Kingdom outright accusing China of torture and extrajudicial punishments.

00:07:15.060 That is pretty heavy duty.

00:07:16.700 That's how you ask a tough question at the United Nations, or in this case, through an NGO affiliated to the UN.

00:07:23.000 That's not bad work.

00:07:23.860 Would you agree?

00:07:24.360 Good for the UK.

00:07:26.060 Now, I'm not going to go through all the questions from all the countries.

00:07:28.860 You see that the Netherlands are next there.

00:07:31.880 Okay.

00:07:32.060 Now, similar questions.

00:07:33.360 Less accusatory than the Brits, but covering the bases. 0.86

00:07:35.740 Free speech, freedom from minorities, the rule of law. 0.99

00:07:38.340 They talk about the gay rights issue, too.

00:07:40.980 I like the Swedish questions.

00:07:43.440 Very plain, to the point.

00:07:45.980 What actions will the government of the PRC, that's the People's Republic of China, take to remove restrictions on freedom of expression and information?

00:07:53.400 That's a good one.

00:07:54.980 There's some questions about domestic violence.

00:07:57.300 Again, my own sense is that state violence is a bigger problem than domestic violence.

00:08:01.460 But look, I'm glad the Swedes are asking the questions, aren't you?

00:08:04.220 As you can imagine, Donald Trump's America just crushes it.

00:08:08.700 Tough, smart, detailed questions.

00:08:12.720 Asking about ethnic groups like the Uyghurs and the Tibetans.

00:08:16.020 Asking about the Falun Gong.

00:08:17.580 Good for them.

00:08:18.960 Asking about how China is undermining Hong Kong.

00:08:22.380 These are great questions.

00:08:24.100 USA fighting for freedom.

00:08:25.480 That's what they do.

00:08:26.080 Now, I'm going to skip ahead, if you don't mind.

00:08:29.320 There's too many questions, too many countries to go through them all.

00:08:32.380 Most Western countries did a variation on the themes I've shown you so far, right?

00:08:37.700 But let's look at some third world hell holes, to paraphrase Donald Trump.

00:08:42.200 Let's look at Pakistan. 0.95

00:08:43.560 Get ready to laugh or to cry.

00:08:44.940 And by the way, I'm going to end with Canada, if you're wondering where I'm going with this.

00:08:48.640 But here's Pakistan. 0.85

00:08:49.800 I'm going to read it all.

00:08:50.700 Every word, okay?

00:08:51.560 This is them holding China to account. 0.93

00:08:54.180 After the second cycle of UPR, China has published an assessment report on the implementation

00:08:58.800 of the National Human Rights Action Plan of China, 2012 to 2015, and the National Human

00:09:04.180 Rights Action Plan of China, 2016 to 2020.

00:09:08.640 What is the role of NGOs in drafting and implementing the National Human Rights Action Plan?

00:09:14.220 Oh, boy.

00:09:15.100 That's a tough question.

00:09:16.160 You got them there.

00:09:17.500 Here, let me read some more.

00:09:18.480 This gets gross here.

00:09:19.620 China has made tremendous achievements in implementing the right to development.

00:09:26.060 Could China share a relevant experience?

00:09:29.640 And then here's the last one.

00:09:31.120 It is understood that China will lift the entire impoverished population in rural areas

00:09:35.120 out of poverty under current standards by 2020.

00:09:38.240 What measures has China taken to ensure the real realization of this goal?

00:09:42.700 Oh, my God.

00:09:45.660 China, what's it like to be so awesome?

00:09:48.160 I have a question.

00:09:49.800 I'm from Pakistan.

00:09:50.600 I have a question from China.

00:09:51.820 How did you get to be so awesome?

00:09:55.140 That's Pakistan. 1.00

00:09:56.080 It's obviously dominated by China in many ways as a country.

00:10:00.360 But more to the point, it's as bad as China in human rights, right? 0.99

00:10:03.320 It's a bullying, authoritarian, racist country that commits terrorism against foreigners and

00:10:08.080 its own people.

00:10:08.820 So it's super tough questions for China.

00:10:11.240 Basically, can you tell us how wonderful you are?

00:10:13.260 It wouldn't surprise me if the questions were actually written by China.

00:10:17.360 I'm not even kidding.

00:10:19.240 Let's just look at one more authoritarian regime called Belarus.

00:10:22.660 That's really the last Stalinist country in Europe.

00:10:26.060 Here's our questions.

00:10:26.660 What policies has China adopted in recent years to build network infrastructure and enable

00:10:33.260 the Internet to benefit the people and improve their livelihood?

00:10:38.000 And is the proportion of ethnic minority officials in China equal to the proportion of their population

00:10:43.220 in the total population?

00:10:45.360 Pretty weak.

00:10:46.500 Pretty meek.

00:10:47.780 Hey, how's your Internet going?

00:10:49.480 Yeah, I don't think that's the number one human rights issue in China.

00:10:51.860 By the way, I don't know if you saw there, Switzerland was next, and they're pretty awesome.

00:10:58.220 Questions about disappeared booksellers, questions about the death penalty, and let me read just

00:11:02.880 one, okay?

00:11:04.880 With respect to the social credit system, what are the legal and judicial safeguards in place

00:11:10.400 to protect citizens' rights to privacy and freedom of expression?

00:11:14.220 Are citizens able to access the data collected about themselves and eventually contest punitive

00:11:19.060 measures resulting from low scores?

00:11:20.680 Now, in case you haven't heard, that's a new system where China collects every piece of 0.96

00:11:25.860 information about you, everything from your Internet searches to your traffic tickets,

00:11:30.460 and gives you a score.

00:11:31.860 That's what they call your social credit.

00:11:33.940 And you get rights and punishments that flow from your score.

00:11:37.180 It is a total Orwellian surveillance state, and it goes into a database that's your social

00:11:42.460 credit.

00:11:43.140 Now, it's probably coming here in five years, but it's already there.

00:11:47.100 Switzerland's on the file, and I'm glad they are, aren't you?

00:11:49.620 Okay, so we see two approaches here.

00:11:52.940 The Western liberal democracies asking tough, but I think fair questions of China.

00:11:57.880 I'd like the answers to them.

00:11:59.840 And then the third world rumps, the failed states, the hellholes to misquote Trump, like

00:12:07.260 Pakistan and Belarus, and there are a few others asking meek or softball questions that

00:12:12.720 aren't really even questions.

00:12:14.100 Okay, so where do you think Canada comes down?

00:12:18.740 Just go through our charter, right?

00:12:20.460 Freedom of speech, freedom of religion, freedom of association, freedom of assembly, the right

00:12:23.560 to vote, things like that.

00:12:25.160 Or get a little pricklier, phrase it about the gulags and police making people disappear.

00:12:30.420 On any of that, where do you think Canada stands on any of that?

00:12:33.280 Those are all things covered by other countries I showed you.

00:12:36.600 Okay, I'm going to show you now.

00:12:37.880 I'm going to read it in full.

00:12:39.120 Here is the full Canadian entry.

00:12:42.000 That's it.

00:12:44.000 What steps is China taking to grant equal marriage and family protections to LGBTI, I don't know

00:12:51.600 what I stands for, couples in its new civil code? 0.82

00:12:56.700 So that's it.

00:12:58.900 You just got one question about gay marriage, but not even gay marriage in reality, just in

00:13:03.840 some meaningless piece of paper called a civil code, not even going after actual discrimination

00:13:08.760 or violence, just looking for some press release by China, really.

00:13:12.440 That's it.

00:13:14.260 Is that the most pressing civil rights issue in China today?

00:13:16.880 A country with no press freedom, no religious freedom, no equal rights for ethnic minorities, 1.00

00:13:21.280 a country where the political party, the communists, control the police and the courts, a country

00:13:26.340 with no rule of law, no property rights, no personal rights, a country with gulags and torture

00:13:30.640 and murder, Trudeau wants to know when they're going to pass their gay marriage bill.

00:13:37.480 I don't know what, so that maybe a gay couple in a political prison, because they were thrown

00:13:43.760 there because they were complaining against Mao, they can finally get married in prison while

00:13:50.120 they're being tortured.

00:13:51.580 You know it's illegal in China to have a gay pride protest, because it's illegal in China

00:14:00.820 to have any protest march of any stripe.

00:14:05.200 There's no freedom of assembly, there's no freedom of speech, there's no political freedom.

00:14:09.860 Trudeau being an idiot on our streets, like that picture there, that's illegal in China whether

00:14:15.800 you're gay or straight, Trudeau doesn't care.

00:14:20.600 I'm sorry, let's play that clip one more time about Trudeau and China.

00:14:23.760 There's a level of admiration I actually have for China, because their basic dictatorship

00:14:33.520 is allowing them to actually turn their economy around on a dime.

00:14:37.980 Yeah, Justin Trudeau doesn't love China, and he doesn't love the Chinese people.

00:14:43.260 He loves the basic dictatorship of China, you heard it, himself.

00:14:48.100 And of course he loves himself.

00:14:52.220 Stay with us for more.

00:14:53.200 We've had very good discussions with China, we're getting much closer to doing something.

00:15:14.940 They very much want to make a deal.

00:15:16.820 As you know, their economy went way down since we've been doing this skirmish.

00:15:22.860 I spoke with President Xi yesterday.

00:15:25.820 They very much want to make a deal.

00:15:28.240 I think we'll make a deal with China, and I think it'll be a very fair deal for everybody, 0.70

00:15:32.860 but it will be a good deal for the United States.

00:15:35.420 Well, there's Donald Trump.

00:15:36.960 It's very interesting watching him deal with China, so different from other governments, 0.98

00:15:42.260 especially our own Canadian government.

00:15:44.340 Do you recall that our ambassador to China basically said more, more, more when asked

00:15:51.600 what terms he wants with China?

00:15:53.120 He'll take any deal.

00:15:54.660 Donald Trump seems to be pushing China away, making them want a deal more than he appears

00:16:00.660 to want it.

00:16:01.520 Well, let's talk to an expert on the subject, someone we've been talking to about China's

00:16:06.920 economy and military for quite some time, our good friend Gordon Chang, who's a columnist

00:16:12.300 with the Daily Beast and the author of a book titled The Coming Collapse of China.

00:16:16.640 Gordon, great to see you again.

00:16:18.040 Thanks for being here.

00:16:19.280 What do you make of Donald Trump basically announcing that China wants a deal more than

00:16:23.660 he does?

00:16:25.040 Well, this is good news, Ezra, because for four decades, the U.S. has been chasing China 0.99

00:16:30.520 for all sorts of things, including trade deals.

00:16:33.680 The problem with any trade deal with Beijing, especially right now, is that the Chinese are 1.00

00:16:38.580 not going to honor it.

00:16:39.740 And so really, these are one-way agreements.

00:16:42.960 And so I think what Trump is really trying to do, and we've seen this from the beginning

00:16:46.680 of this year, is disentangle the American and Chinese economies.

00:16:51.700 This really means that we're not going to be as hostage to Beijing as we have been in

00:16:56.980 the past.

00:16:57.420 So although, you know, this is going to be unfortunate, nonetheless, this is, I think, what absolutely

00:17:04.460 is required right now, because after four decades, we've seen that we cannot come to

00:17:09.040 terms with China, especially under Xi Jinping, the current ruler.

00:17:13.780 I understand the rationale for America's engagement policy.

00:17:18.480 I mean, it was Nixon and Kissinger who came up with the idea of triangulating against Stalin,

00:17:24.600 about having a counterweight to the Soviets.

00:17:28.020 And that was when China had a military force, a population, but was not an economic juggernaut.

00:17:35.840 Things have certainly changed, haven't they?

00:17:37.720 I mean, I think history may bear out that decision made 40 years ago.

00:17:44.020 But that dynamic really isn't at play today, is it?

00:17:47.960 No, it isn't.

00:17:48.700 You know, after the end of the Cold War, the rationale for relations with China really just

00:17:53.940 changed.

00:17:55.220 You know, right now, what we're seeing is China stealing hundreds of billions of dollars

00:17:59.120 of U.S. intellectual property each year.

00:18:01.240 This is important because we have an innovation-based economy.

00:18:05.540 And if we cannot commercialize our innovation, we just don't have very much of an economy.

00:18:10.540 And that's what this quote-unquote trade war really is about.

00:18:14.340 And President Trump's tariffs are imposed under Section 301 of the Trade Act of 1974 as a remedy

00:18:20.140 for intellectual property theft.

00:18:22.300 So, you know, regardless of what one thinks about trade, no one can be in favor of Chinese

00:18:27.900 crime.

00:18:28.880 Right.

00:18:29.280 Well, and it's so ubiquitous in China, counterfeits, knockoffs.

00:18:33.540 They're often of, you know, retail brands.

00:18:36.540 There's fake Starbucks.

00:18:37.720 There's clothing, expensive clothing brands.

00:18:41.280 There's knockoffs everywhere.

00:18:42.560 That's almost, I won't say it's amusing, but it feels small time.

00:18:49.980 But of course, there's larger scale ripoffs of the actual high-tech economy, technology

00:18:57.400 that's not trivial or laughable.

00:18:59.460 It puts companies out of business.

00:19:01.440 Well, it does.

00:19:03.440 And it puts countries out of business.

00:19:05.680 And really, this is what we have to focus in on.

00:19:08.980 When you look at all intellectual property theft, you know, as you say, knocking off a

00:19:14.660 Starbucks is not a mortal wound to the U.S. economy.

00:19:17.840 Now, the one thing that we should point out is that there's so much of that, that the numbers

00:19:22.260 are actually quite big, even for the trivial stuff.

00:19:25.280 But you're absolutely right that we should be concerned about the taking of innovation.

00:19:31.440 Because that's where the future of the 21st century is.

00:19:34.620 And we cannot allow a country just to steal it. 0.87

00:19:37.260 Because that gives them an enormous competitive advantage.

00:19:40.680 And that's just unacceptable.

00:19:42.780 I just read your column from a few days ago in The National Interest.

00:19:46.100 Let me quote the title of it.

00:19:47.720 The Trump Curveball.

00:19:49.580 This is what China didn't expect. 0.60

00:19:52.460 I want to get back to your main thesis in that column in a moment.

00:19:55.780 But you describe things in there that I haven't seen reported widely.

00:19:59.420 Namely, that President Xi is moving away from liberalization and free marketization and seems

00:20:07.600 to be retrenching in that command and control economy.

00:20:11.260 Can you give our viewers some details about that, please?

00:20:14.460 Yeah.

00:20:15.020 One of the most important things is that he's, first of all, shutting off the market to foreign 1.00

00:20:19.060 companies in a number of different ways.

00:20:21.120 These are non-tariff barriers.

00:20:22.700 So, for instance, there's cybersecurity law, national security law.

00:20:27.160 These prejudice foreign companies.

00:20:29.320 He's been using, for instance, law enforcement actions in a discriminatory manner.

00:20:36.420 You know, as China is putting together large state enterprises back into formal monopolies,

00:20:41.580 he's going after foreign companies under the anti-monopoly law.

00:20:44.960 This is just hideous.

00:20:46.000 But the most important thing is when you start looking at state industrial policy, the Made

00:20:51.340 in China 2025 initiative, where China seeks dominance in 10, now 11 critical sectors.

00:20:59.360 So this is where the future of the global economy is.

00:21:03.340 And China, through means which are violating their World Trade Organization obligations, are 0.78

00:21:08.740 doing a number of things to basically control 5G, wireless, robotics, artificial intelligence,

00:21:17.980 semiconductors, all the rest of it.

00:21:19.860 So this is where our critical focus should be.

00:21:23.160 That's a lot more serious than just knocking off a Ralph Lauren polo shirt.

00:21:27.580 I mean, if you're getting the lead of AI or 5G technology, that truly will own the 21st century.

00:21:34.280 I want to ask you, I mean, you and I have talked about Trump and China since the early

00:21:40.100 days of his administration.

00:21:42.340 We were talking then about punishing China's support for North Korea.

00:21:48.000 I know one of the worries you and I had talked about was that by tackling China's economy, 1.00

00:21:53.920 America would possibly be doing great damage to itself because they're great trading partners.

00:21:59.740 That doesn't seem to have happened.

00:22:01.960 And Trump has large tariffs on China.

00:22:04.960 It's in a way blacklisting China.

00:22:07.680 And the American economy seems to be quite strong.

00:22:10.520 Maybe it could be stronger, but it's certainly booming.

00:22:15.580 Is China actually hurting?

00:22:18.360 Does China feel like it's losing the trade war?

00:22:21.460 That's how Trump is projecting it.

00:22:24.000 I want to believe Trump, but he uses hyperbole from time to time.

00:22:27.800 Is China actually feeling some economic pain in their relationship with Trump's America?

00:22:34.440 I think that it is.

00:22:35.980 And part of it is because the U.S. tariffs are coming at a time where the Chinese economy

00:22:41.380 was already slowing.

00:22:43.160 So right now, Beijing, I think, is maybe not in a panic, but in a near panic about what

00:22:49.120 is occurring to the economy.

00:22:50.580 You know, at this particular time, it's very hard to figure out China because the numbers

00:22:56.520 coming out don't make sense.

00:22:58.380 But there's a clear notion that China is slowing down.

00:23:02.100 And large part of it is because of the tariffs that President Trump has been imposing.

00:23:08.000 This is going to be important because there's going to be much more effect on the tariffs going

00:23:12.420 forward because the Chinese economy has been able to get through because they accelerated a lot

00:23:18.000 of sales to the U.S. before the tariffs went into place.

00:23:21.980 In other words, they were borrowing from the future in order to make the present look better.

00:23:26.720 That future is coming to right now at fast speed for China. 0.88

00:23:31.860 And so that means that they're going to have some very, very difficult years ahead as this

00:23:36.780 trade war, quote unquote, continues.

00:23:39.600 I want to ask you a question about how America negotiates with China.

00:23:44.380 Canada just came through the end of a one-year negotiation with the U.S. trade representative

00:23:52.600 redoing NAFTA.

00:23:55.340 And I don't think any observer would say anything other than Canada got a haircut.

00:24:00.960 I mean, we at best held the line on a few items and we gave up things.

00:24:05.600 I happen to think that the things we gave up are better for the economy.

00:24:09.260 But we got roughed up by that U.S. trade rep.

00:24:12.720 But here's the thing, Gordon, Canada and the United States both respect the rule of law.

00:24:18.240 They're both high trust societies.

00:24:20.320 And even if we could quarrel over details, both sides know that the new trade deal will

00:24:26.380 pretty much be honored in good faith.

00:24:29.380 How does the U.S. trade rep, who's used to dealing with countries like the United Kingdom

00:24:34.700 and the European Union countries and Canada, how do you even engage with Chinese negotiators?

00:24:41.740 Because even if they are negotiating in good faith, which is a question with a dictatorship,

00:24:47.420 how do you know it can be given effect through courts, through taxes, through any of the

00:24:53.300 infrastructure of the state?

00:24:54.580 How do you even do a deal with a country that doesn't have an independent judiciary, for example?

00:24:59.700 Yeah, I don't think that you can, Ezra.

00:25:02.760 And that really is the critical point.

00:25:05.220 You know, we have seen so many trade arrangements with China, whether bilateral or multilateral.

00:25:11.780 And Beijing has not honored them.

00:25:13.800 And the breaches have been material and significant, not just minor things.

00:25:18.440 And as you point out, you don't have recourse to the courts in China, because there are not

00:25:23.580 any independent courts.

00:25:24.960 And China is a country that just doesn't believe in the notion of comparative advantage, which

00:25:30.760 is the basis of the global trading system.

00:25:33.400 So you have an extraordinarily selfish mentality.

00:25:36.540 And to make it all worse, you've got Xi Jinping, who actually believes in sort of a state-dominated

00:25:41.560 economy, taking China in a regressive direction.

00:25:45.320 So this is really bad news, not only for us, but for the Chinese as well, because we know

00:25:51.720 what a Maoist-type economy, a Maoist-type theology has actually done to China in the past.

00:25:58.660 And that scares me.

00:26:00.320 I mean, I don't want to be naive with regards to China.

00:26:03.560 And I think that Trump's principal disengagement, I'm going to use that phrase, is wise.

00:26:09.740 But what scares me is if President Xi actually takes China back to the bad old days.

00:26:15.700 Because despite all our quarrels with China, producing wealth and prosperity and lifting

00:26:20.800 people out of mass poverty is a good thing, no matter where you are on the spectrum.

00:26:24.500 I think that's my own view.

00:26:25.780 And I'm scared, reading your piece in the National Interest, of indications that the good things

00:26:32.340 that were there amidst the bad things are being set back.

00:26:36.940 I hope that, does President Xi, does he believe in at least economic liberalism, put aside the

00:26:46.420 political liberalism?

00:26:47.480 No, he doesn't?

00:26:48.720 I don't think so.

00:26:49.900 You know, I don't know what's in his head, Ezra, but I do know what he's doing.

00:26:53.740 And across the board, whether we're talking access to the Chinese market, or the role of

00:26:58.280 state enterprises, or the role of the state in the financial markets, you know, we see clear

00:27:03.360 regressive moves across the board.

00:27:05.760 And this is not just this year.

00:27:07.260 This has really been throughout Xi Jinping's tenure, which started at the end of 2012.

00:27:13.020 You know, and this is ironic, because next month, China celebrates the 40th anniversary

00:27:17.360 of the start of the reform era.

00:27:19.660 But China's not reforming.

00:27:21.600 It is closing itself up, and it's going in, you know, a Stalinist, Maoist type of economy.

00:27:28.280 And this is a concern, because obviously, it's not going to be good for foreign competitors.

00:27:34.060 But the biggest victims, of course, are the Chinese themselves. 1.00

00:27:37.880 Yeah, that's very true.

00:27:39.480 What amateur study I've made of the Cultural Revolution, the Great Leap Forward, is so

00:27:45.540 terrifying and so heartbreaking.

00:27:46.980 Any movement away from that Maoist past is a good thing.

00:27:52.160 And it scares me a little bit to hear that there's tendencies to regress.

00:27:56.000 I have one last question for you.

00:27:56.960 Being very generous with your time, I always learn so much from you, and I thank you for

00:28:00.380 your expertise.

00:28:00.880 I referenced the new Canada-US-Mexico revised trade deal, the revised NAFTA.

00:28:09.500 There was a provision there that I think surprised a number of people, that the United States retains

00:28:15.120 some sort of, I'm not going to say veto power, but they have the right to information and to

00:28:22.980 review Canadian trade deals with a non-market country.

00:28:28.460 I think they obviously were referring to China.

00:28:31.140 I don't know who else they could mean.

00:28:34.340 Canada accepted this.

00:28:36.440 Some people said, oh, this is a violation of Canadian sovereignty.

00:28:40.300 But it's obvious the United States is worried that Canada might be doing some deals with China

00:28:46.480 that are contrary to America's interests and that they want the right to know about.

00:28:50.340 Do you have any comments?

00:28:51.060 Have you heard about this provision?

00:28:52.300 Do you know anything about it?

00:28:53.180 This is really important, and it's not a violation of Canadian sovereignty if Ottawa

00:28:58.020 agrees to it.

00:28:58.860 Of course.

00:28:59.380 You know, all trade agreements have restrictions, and that's the reason why you have agreements.

00:29:04.320 So the United States and Mexico have also agreed to restrictions on their free action.

00:29:09.720 So, you know, to say this is a violation of Canadian sovereignty is ludicrous.

00:29:13.000 Right.

00:29:13.120 This is important because what the Trump administration is saying is that, yeah, we can trade among

00:29:20.280 ourselves because we have open economies, but you can't allow a closed economy like China

00:29:26.800 to, you know, prey upon free economies like ours.

00:29:30.340 And so I think it's absolutely appropriate for that provision to be in USMCA, you know, the

00:29:37.480 successor to NAFTA.

00:29:38.860 Well, that's a great point.

00:29:40.780 I mean, I agree with you.

00:29:42.220 If we agreed to it, you know, our duly elected government agreed to it, it is not a violation

00:29:48.140 of our sovereignty, but it certainly is a new requirement from our great ally, which I

00:29:53.640 think shows their concern.

00:29:55.040 Well, listen, Gordon, it's great to have you as always.

00:29:57.420 I could talk with you all day, but I know you have other demands on your time.

00:30:01.120 I look forward to our next talk.

00:30:02.980 And who knows?

00:30:04.340 Maybe President Trump's prediction will come to pass and there will be some improvement

00:30:08.440 in the bilateral relationship.

00:30:10.800 And hopefully, not only will it be good for America, but hopefully it will help coax China 0.99

00:30:16.180 on the right path, too.

00:30:17.400 Maybe we could talk about that as the news develops.

00:30:20.260 Thanks very much, Ezra.

00:30:21.420 Great to see you again.

00:30:22.320 Well, thank you so much.

00:30:23.720 That's our friend Gordon Chang.

00:30:25.060 He's a columnist with The Daily Beast.

00:30:27.100 His book is called The Coming Collapse of China.

00:30:28.880 And may I recommend his most recent article in the National Interest called The Trump Curveball.

00:30:34.720 This is what China didn't expect. 0.60

00:30:36.840 Always an education to talk to Gordon.

00:30:39.220 Stay with us.

00:30:40.260 More ahead on The Rebel.

00:30:41.060 Hey, welcome back.

00:30:53.780 On my monologue yesterday about Catherine McKenna being a co-chair on a Chinese government agency,

00:30:59.440 Betty writes, funny how there's money to give to the Chinese for McKenna to join their 1.00

00:31:04.780 organization, but Canadian veterans are asking for more money than the liberals have to give.

00:31:09.100 Yeah, you're so right.

00:31:11.380 I mean, listen, you can make the money argument, and money goes to priorities.

00:31:15.100 You're right.

00:31:16.680 But frankly, if it was $1 or $1 million, or if they were paying us $1 million, I find that

00:31:22.640 a secondary concern to, why are we having a cabinet minister who took an oath of loyalty

00:31:30.100 to our queen serving loyalty on a Communist Party government committee?

00:31:36.820 How can you be loyal to Canada while serving as the vice chair of a government of China

00:31:45.140 committee?

00:31:45.900 I thought that was a Canada-China council, because she was tweeting, China council, China

00:31:50.640 council.

00:31:50.840 I assumed that Canada was implied.

00:31:53.940 That is not a Canada-China council.

00:31:56.460 That is just a China council.

00:31:58.200 I can't believe no one else has even reported on this, or maybe I absolutely can believe

00:32:04.560 it.

00:32:06.020 Jonathan writes, McKenna has no business sitting on such a committee.

00:32:09.980 This is divided loyalties, plain and simple.

00:32:12.520 You're so right.

00:32:13.160 I remember when Stéphane Dion became leader, and Thomas Mulcair as well.

00:32:19.660 Both of those guys have a foreign passport.

00:32:23.500 Both have a French passport.

00:32:25.080 At least I know Dion did, I think Mulcair did also.

00:32:29.040 And the question is, if Stéphane Dion were to become a prime minister, or even leader

00:32:34.100 of the opposition, if you have a foreign passport, at least to me, a passport isn't just a set

00:32:39.720 of rights, it's a responsibility, duty, patriotism.

00:32:43.900 I mean, if, I don't even, I understand if you have two passports for reasons of sentimentality

00:32:49.220 or reasons of business, there are reasons.

00:32:51.060 But if you're at the political apex of a country, you can't ride two horses.

00:32:57.940 I mean, just, again, theoretically, there could be some trade dispute with France.

00:33:02.020 There could be some dispute at the United Nations.

00:33:05.220 It could be a border dispute with Saint-Pierre and Michelon over fishing.

00:33:10.120 How can you be loyal to both sides of that quarrel?

00:33:13.520 Thank God we would never have a serious mortal quarrel with France.

00:33:18.440 But with China?

00:33:21.680 How can you work loyally for the success of the Communist Party's five-year plan?

00:33:27.800 And again, I wouldn't ever say that Stéphane Dion or Thomas Mulcair actively and actually

00:33:34.200 worked for France.

00:33:35.840 That's the thing I wanted to avoid, the perception of that, by their dual citizenship.

00:33:42.440 Here, I don't think that Catherine McKenna has a Chinese passport.

00:33:47.020 But she's doing the thing that the passport would worry me about.

00:33:51.340 She's working loyally for the Chinese government.

00:33:54.160 It's worse than a passport.

00:33:55.580 A passport might be, you might have a passport for five different reasons.

00:33:58.860 It's not the passport itself that's the dangers of what the passport implies, that you could

00:34:03.920 be loyal to some other country.

00:34:05.420 Catherine McKenna, without the Chinese passport, is, by definition, loyal to this committee

00:34:10.140 of the Chinese government.

00:34:12.260 How, how, how is that okay?

00:34:16.220 On my interview with Don Lastin, Karen writes,

00:34:19.280 What an amazing, amazing interview.

00:34:20.640 I can't wait to watch the movie.

00:34:22.200 Very grateful that there is a movie like this out there.

00:34:24.420 But you have to remember, Donald Trump spoke to the heart of Americans.

00:34:27.160 So he's not a unique unicorn.

00:34:29.040 He represents the angry voter and normal Americans.

00:34:32.060 Well, I'm glad you liked that movie.

00:34:33.760 And it was, I liked watching it.

00:34:36.580 You know, because it was a, it was a good story, well told.

00:34:39.940 And I won't lie, the whole time I was thinking, this voice, you know, there's something about

00:34:45.460 a narrator.

00:34:46.160 It just, I felt, and I didn't know, I didn't put it together, who it was, to the very end

00:34:50.700 where I saw his name in the credits, Kelsey Grammer.

00:34:53.580 Well, that's the show for today.

00:34:55.020 The, do you think I'm too obsessed with this, this Trudeau-China thing?

00:34:58.700 I actually dug up a video clip, I think I'm going to show you tomorrow, that's even crazier,

00:35:03.500 or just as crazy, because nothing can be as crazy as a cabinet minister sitting on a government

00:35:10.480 committee for a foreign government.

00:35:12.440 How is that even allowed?

00:35:16.380 You know, I don't know, maybe we should petition the ethics commissioner.

00:35:19.120 How is that even allowed?

00:35:20.740 How is that ethical?

00:35:22.860 And why is not another journalist that I know of saying a peep about this?

00:35:28.280 If you see it out there, I'll do some research myself, but if you see any evidence of any

00:35:32.660 other journalist, or where's the Conservative Party opposition?

00:35:36.340 Where's the NDP opposition?

00:35:37.440 Talking about it, let me know, because as far as I know, no one has said a word against

00:35:42.020 this.

00:35:42.460 Don't you find that odd?

00:35:43.680 I sure do.

00:35:45.300 I sure do.

00:35:46.720 All right, folks, that's the show for today.

00:35:48.240 Hey, by the way, keep going to caravanreports.com.

00:35:52.100 David Menzies is safely back in Canada, but his reports, we've got some reports sort of stacked

00:35:57.360 up.

00:35:57.640 He did about 20 reports when he was down there.

00:35:59.700 So keep going to caravanreports.com.

00:36:01.380 He's got a very interesting interview with a young man from El Salvador who wants to come

00:36:05.840 to Canada.

00:36:06.800 You should watch that video.

00:36:08.100 All right, see you tomorrow, everybody.

00:36:09.520 Until then, keep fighting for free.

Rebel News Podcast - November 07, 2018

Nations put their toughest human rights questions to China. Guess what Canada asked them...

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