Rebel News Podcast - SHEILA GUNN REID ｜ Constitutional Lawyer Derek From： Coerced Vaccination and Fighting for Your Rights

00:00:00.000 Oh, hey, Rebels, it's me, Sheila Gunn-Reed, and you're listening to a free audio-only

00:00:03.980 recording of my weekly Wednesday night show, aptly called The Gun Show, but you know what?

00:00:08.900 This is the internet, so you can listen or watch whenever you feel like, because that's

00:00:13.400 the beauty of not being tied to terrestrial radio.

00:00:16.460 Now, tonight my guest is someone who, I guess if you pay attention to civil liberties in

00:00:21.900 Alberta, you already know who he is, but he might be a new face to some Rebel viewers

00:00:27.480 outside of the greatest province in Canada, greatest place on the face of the earth, Alberta.

00:00:34.380 It's Derek Frum, and he's a constitutional lawyer based out of Calgary, and tonight we're talking

00:00:39.800 about vaccine passports and how the coronavirus pandemic has really been used to crush civil

00:00:50.160 liberties, not only in Alberta, but really across the board and across the world.

00:00:55.240 Now, if you like listening to the show, then I promise you're going to love watching

00:00:58.080 it, but in order to watch, you need to be a subscriber to Rebel News Plus.

00:01:02.200 That's what we call our long-form TV-style shows here on Rebel News.

00:01:06.760 Subscribers get access to my show, as well as Ezra's nightly Ezra Levant show, David Menzies'

00:01:11.280 fun Friday night show, Rebel Roundup, and Andrew Chapados' new-ish show.

00:01:16.820 Andrew says, it's only $8 a month to subscribe, and we're doing something special during the

00:01:24.820 election.

00:01:25.480 We want to give you a sneak peek behind our paywall.

00:01:29.720 If you use the coupon code ELECTION at rebelnewsplus.com, we'll give you free access to our paywall

00:01:41.900 shows for the duration of the election, and then, when the election's all done, you can

00:01:49.420 decide if, you know, if you like us, and you want to go study.

00:01:54.120 So just go to rebelnewsplus.com, coupon code ELECTION for free, all access to our paywall

00:02:01.640 shows.

00:02:02.080 Now, please enjoy this free, audio-only version of my show.

00:02:15.280 Some governments and now private companies are imposing vaccine passports.

00:02:27.200 What's the motivation here?

00:02:28.640 Are vaccine passports even effective, and why is almost no one bothering to fight back 0.96

00:02:35.340 against them?

00:02:36.240 I'm Sheila Gunn-Reed, and you're watching The Gunn Show.

00:02:38.660 The province of British Columbia is currently bringing in a vaccine passport system that

00:03:01.020 doesn't even allow for medical or religious exemptions to the rules.

00:03:05.380 Just look at this, BC's vaccine card for public activities leaves disabled people feeling trapped.

00:03:13.660 As the province announced its plans for a proof-of-vaccine system for restaurants, concerts, and other

00:03:22.120 quote, non-essential spaces, there are concerns that people with disabilities and those who can't

00:03:29.760 get vaccinated are being excluded.

00:03:33.060 Now, the province of Quebec, they've lost their mind, too.

00:03:36.640 They're bringing in a similar vaccine passport system in the next couple of weeks using a QR code.

00:03:43.300 However, here in Alberta, our government has rejected the idea of a vaccine passport.

00:03:49.060 Our Premier, Jason Kenney, has even said that he will oppose any efforts by the federal government

00:03:55.160 to impose a vaccine passport system on us here in Alberta.

00:03:59.120 However, what's truly the difference if private companies are opting to do it instead of the

00:04:05.860 government, like the Edmonton Oilers and the Calgary Flames, who are making proof-of-vaccination

00:04:11.200 mandatory to attend a hockey game in a publicly funded facility?

00:04:18.060 And our Premier, who tells us he's against vaccine passports, he's notably silent on the issue.

00:04:24.560 Now, one person who is definitely not notably silent on the issue of vaccine passports is

00:04:30.360 Calgary-based constitutional lawyer Derek Frum, and he joined me tonight in an interview we

00:04:36.160 recorded yesterday night to discuss the constitutional issues with vaccine passports, the obvious

00:04:42.160 ineffectiveness of a vaccine passport in preventing the spread of the coronavirus, and why he thinks

00:04:48.340 coerced vaccination is the constitutional hill to die on.

00:04:54.560 Joining me now from his Calgary home is Calgary-based lawyer Derek Frum.

00:05:12.300 Now, Derek, you're a new face, I think, to Rebel viewers, but definitely not to me.

00:05:17.000 Why don't you give us a bit of a background about who and what you are, the things that

00:05:24.060 you have been working on in the past, because you're definitely not one of those homemade

00:05:30.700 lawyers that plague the internet post-COVID.

00:05:33.760 Give us a little bit of your CV, if you will.

00:05:37.240 Okay.

00:05:37.580 So I've been a lawyer for about 10 years, and I started my practice and I articled with the

00:05:43.820 Canadian Constitution Foundation in Calgary.

00:05:46.580 So originally I worked with John Carpe and then Marnie Soupkoff, Chris Schaefer, Howard

00:05:52.560 Anglin, a bunch of names that many people will know.

00:05:56.020 And I spent 10 years there.

00:05:57.940 And over that time, I was able to work through a number of important constitutional cases that

00:06:03.920 made it to the Supreme Court of Canada.

00:06:05.260 One that's very important and was a lot of work was the RV Como case, which was actually

00:06:12.540 an interprovincial trade case regarding beer.

00:06:14.960 That was about seven years of my life from its inception in, I think, about 2012, till

00:06:19.780 we got a decision seven years later from the Supreme Court.

00:06:23.280 So I've been a long time, my entire legal career, I've been an advocate for personal liberty,

00:06:28.580 for open borders within Canada, for economic freedom, and for the rights that are enshrined

00:06:35.480 in the Charter.

00:06:36.740 Now, one of the reasons I wanted to have you on the show is because you've been so outspoken.

00:06:41.580 One of the few lawyers out there, I think really with the exclusion of our Fight the Fines

00:06:46.520 lawyers and then the Justice Centre, you're one of the few lawyers out there that is so

00:06:50.060 outspoken about the trampling of civil liberties during the time of the coronavirus.

00:06:56.000 And lately, you've really been on my radar because you've been very outspoken against

00:07:02.120 vaccine passports in one form or another, either from government or from private business.

00:07:09.080 But why are you so concerned about vaccine passports?

00:07:13.460 Well, it's actually a long, long explanation will be required for that, but I'll try to keep

00:07:18.860 it short.

00:07:19.580 No, you can have all the time you want.

00:07:21.380 No, lovely.

00:07:22.180 No, that was a mistake.

00:07:23.160 So, it became very obvious early on when I was a young lawyer, well, 10 years ago, that

00:07:31.640 when government gives itself a tool, it creates a tool through legislation that it can use.

00:07:38.460 That tool isn't always used how it was expected to be used.

00:07:44.760 So, for instance, there's all sorts of legislation in Canada called civil forfeiture legislation.

00:07:51.960 And originally, that was intended to strip criminals of the proceeds that they earned through criminal

00:07:59.160 activity.

00:08:00.220 But it has since been completely turned on its head and turned into a revenue stream for government

00:08:06.860 agencies to strip Canadians who have done nothing wrong of their property and fill government

00:08:12.060 coffers.

00:08:12.560 So, this has happened, and it's not unusual to be able to follow a particular tool from

00:08:20.160 its inception to how it ultimately is used by government.

00:08:23.720 So, it was very obvious to me, because I'm familiar with this pattern, it is, I think,

00:08:29.400 inevitable for most legislation to have this result.

00:08:33.260 And when I see lockdowns happening, and the first one happening in Alberta last March, it

00:08:40.460 became very obvious to me that this was precedent setting for the future, that it will be used

00:08:44.820 by successive governments for other purposes.

00:08:47.520 And it's not a question of if that will happen, it's a question of when it will happen.

00:08:53.800 I can guarantee you that there is not a tool that the government ever gives itself that

00:09:00.820 it will not use again.

00:09:01.400 And so, for instance, this vaccine passport that we're all very concerned about now and

00:09:07.100 vaccine mandates, they're kind of two sides of the same coin in many ways.

00:09:10.320 But what that will be right now, it seems reasonable.

00:09:14.920 We're just going to use it for a temporary period of time, they say this.

00:09:18.880 But you know what?

00:09:20.020 I can tell you that when they find there's an appetite for it in Canada, or that the Canadian

00:09:25.460 population will, for the most part, tolerate this sort of violation of rights, and freedoms

00:09:31.260 are freedom to move freely and be participants in the economy and social life of our country.

00:09:36.820 If that is tolerated by Canadians, it will be used again. 0.99

00:09:41.480 And it will be different crises in the future.

00:09:44.360 And there's no question in my mind that Canadians get used to it, and it will show up again.

00:09:50.460 So that's why we need to fight this now.

00:09:53.240 This is really a hill to die on, because it's inevitable.

00:09:57.740 It's inevitable that it will be used against us in the future.

00:10:01.640 Well, we're seeing it already.

00:10:02.660 I mean, in British Columbia, they're bringing in a vaccine passport system that really

00:10:06.700 doesn't even allow for reasonable accommodation.

00:10:09.500 They're just saying, you have to get a vaccine.

00:10:12.640 You have to present your papers, as they say, if you want to participate in everyday normal

00:10:17.960 life.

00:10:18.380 And it doesn't even matter.

00:10:19.480 It's not tied to hospitalizations.

00:10:21.800 It's not tied to positive case counts.

00:10:24.500 Take that for whatever you will.

00:10:26.720 And there's no reasonable accommodation.

00:10:28.040 You can't say, well, I am an Orthodox Catholic.

00:10:33.060 I cannot take a vaccine that is made with fetal tissue.

00:10:36.300 The only vaccine that you have available for me today contains fetal cell lines.

00:10:41.700 I can't take that in good conscience.

00:10:43.500 It doesn't matter.

00:10:44.120 Then I can't participate in society.

00:10:46.000 There's none of those exemptions being made in BC.

00:10:48.920 What do you think the chances are that BC's vaccine passport system, with no accommodations,

00:10:56.360 what do you think the chances are that that would withstand a constitutional challenge?

00:11:02.860 So in 2016, if we were having this conversation, we would say it's clearly going to be found

00:11:09.740 to be unconstitutional.

00:11:10.880 In 2021, I don't know what to say.

00:11:16.800 I'm very discouraged, both at the members of my profession.

00:11:22.440 I'm very discouraged at how quickly Canadians caved in to fear.

00:11:27.520 And I'm very discouraged that our governments have decided that there's a one-size-fits-all

00:11:35.040 solution that they're trying to sell as a temporary solution.

00:11:39.740 But really is a permanent solution in disguise.

00:11:43.540 And this is what I mean by that.

00:11:45.600 So vaccine passport, if you don't participate and take the vaccine, you may lose your job.

00:11:53.980 You may lose your livelihood.

00:11:55.620 Your kids are impacted.

00:11:57.280 And so it's a coercive form of government incentive to force a particular type of behavior.

00:12:06.060 And they may say, well, it's just, it's a couple months long.

00:12:09.320 It's going to expire.

00:12:11.500 But if your need is to put food on the table now, if you want to participate, if you're

00:12:16.700 going to miss an opportunity or your kids are going to miss an opportunity for their

00:12:20.600 development in whatever that is, if that's sports, school, anything like that, some sort

00:12:26.220 of extracurricular activity.

00:12:28.180 People who miss those opportunities and just take a vaccine, those are actually permanent

00:12:35.060 consequences.

00:12:36.300 A child who is left behind, that could have repercussions for their entire life.

00:12:40.640 Not to be hyperbolic about it, but it could.

00:12:43.360 If you lose your job and you're having difficulty putting food on the table, there could be long

00:12:49.460 term consequences to that.

00:12:51.040 And if you choose, again, to take a vaccine, you betray your principles, you have this internal

00:12:57.300 conflict for the rest of your life, or let's say you suffer an adverse effect from the vaccine,

00:13:03.160 that could also be permanent.

00:13:05.600 And so I don't buy the government's argument that this is a reasonable way to do things and

00:13:11.860 that it's only temporary in nature.

00:13:13.540 Some of these consequences, the effect of a temporary mandate, a temporary vaccine passport

00:13:20.400 might be permanent in nature.

00:13:22.760 And so it's very discouraging to me the way they're selling it.

00:13:26.120 They should have reasonable accommodations built into it.

00:13:29.280 The most obvious one, and I think everyone who's a reasonable person can agree with this.

00:13:36.060 And that is a hill to die on when I say everyone who is a reasonable person can agree with what

00:13:41.180 I'm going to say.

00:13:41.700 If you've had COVID-19 and have recovered, you're immune.

00:13:47.800 You have better immunity than a vaccine will provide you with.

00:13:52.300 Broad immunity.

00:13:53.940 In fact, there's good evidence now that you risk more by taking the vaccine than someone

00:13:59.900 who hasn't been infected.

00:14:01.700 So the government is not only not listening to you, that you should be exempt from their

00:14:07.260 irrational little game that they've set up.

00:14:09.480 But they're putting you at risk for incentivizing you to do something that's more risky than

00:14:15.820 if you didn't do it.

00:14:17.440 So it's just very clear that this is not a well thought through plan.

00:14:23.060 And I've been struggling trying to figure out what the idea is behind it.

00:14:28.440 All I can think of is that we've gotten to the point where the mob, in the most sad sense

00:14:38.060 of the word, is now in control.

00:14:39.860 And politicians are responding to incentives driven by mob mentality.

00:14:44.320 And so they're grasping at straws, trying to maintain power.

00:14:49.020 And this is the last straw they've grasped at recently.

00:14:52.780 Yeah.

00:14:53.280 I mean, they do keep telling us to follow the signs, but it would seem that they are chasing

00:14:57.400 the politics and the votes here without getting too technical.

00:15:02.120 And this probably won't go up on YouTube.

00:15:04.340 It'll probably end up on Rumble anyway.

00:15:06.200 But I mean, when we see what's happening in Israel with one of the largest vaccination

00:15:13.540 rates in the free world, and the majority of their hospitalizations now are people who 0.97

00:15:20.780 have received the vaccine, as in sounds like the vaccine is failing six months out.

00:15:27.160 And instead of seeing that, examining the data, and reacting accordingly here in Canada, we

00:15:35.520 are just pursuing the same, I guess the right word is failure.

00:15:39.720 Yeah.

00:15:40.260 It's a failed strategy that we continue to pursue.

00:15:44.500 Lockdowns didn't prevent COVID from spreading.

00:15:48.040 The NPIs in general didn't.

00:15:50.380 The non-pharmaceutical interventions didn't prevent it from spreading.

00:15:54.000 Now, it can be responded to what I just said, that, well, we don't have a control group.

00:16:00.220 We don't know what would have happened if it weren't that way.

00:16:03.660 But you know that Sweden is still a pretty good example.

00:16:06.780 And I did check it today.

00:16:09.000 They are getting a few more cases than they have been through the summer, but their deaths

00:16:14.340 are still riding zero.

00:16:16.820 And it seems to me that we chose a flawed policy and we're sticking with it.

00:16:22.020 And we're going to do more of the same and expect different results.

00:16:25.220 And you're right.

00:16:26.240 The Israeli data is troubling.

00:16:28.060 I don't know at this point if it's an indication of what we call ADE or if it's an indication

00:16:37.940 of failing vaccine efficacy over time.

00:16:40.920 It seems to be one of the two.

00:16:44.220 I think we have enough data now to say, and there's scientific studies demonstrating this,

00:16:50.980 you don't have to take my word for it, that the vaccine efficacy is fading.

00:16:55.340 The longer out you are from your vaccine dosage that you took, the less immunity you still have.

00:17:03.080 And the data from the UK seems to be backing that up as well.

00:17:06.400 And so when we start looking at what we do know, vaccine efficacy seems to be fading.

00:17:15.680 And people who have taken the vaccine still are carrying the virus and are able to spread

00:17:21.720 the virus and do occasionally get sick from it.

00:17:26.220 So what purpose does a vaccine passport serve?

00:17:30.040 So if we run the game as a, like a game in our mind, like a game of chess, we know the rules.

00:17:37.480 Person A is vaccinated.

00:17:39.160 Person B is not.

00:17:40.980 Person A is worried.

00:17:42.420 Person B is not.

00:17:44.120 Person A has as much protection as they can from the pharmaceuticals as they can get at this point 0.92

00:17:50.160 in time.

00:17:51.200 And they can still get sick.

00:17:53.100 They can still spread the, the, the sickness to others, but yet they're demanding a person B, 0.99

00:18:00.060 that person B's liberty is restricted.

00:18:02.480 That is irrational.

00:18:04.620 That is a game that does not make any sense.

00:18:07.760 And, you know, if it were 2016, a court could clearly review that.

00:18:13.420 And under section one of the charter would say, government, you have to provide a very good

00:18:17.900 reason why you're restricting liberties the way you are.

00:18:20.320 And this restriction is beyond what is necessary.

00:18:24.680 And there's a good potential that the government's plan would be curbed by the courts.

00:18:29.800 But not in 2021.

00:18:32.200 And I think we, I think we've seen that all play out already at the COVID jail level with

00:18:40.700 our constitutional challenge of the COVID incarceration program of completely healthy, innocent people

00:18:46.680 abducted from the airport.

00:18:47.880 Uh, when you put it that way, it sounds crazy, but it's happening and it was upheld by the

00:18:53.260 court.

00:18:54.260 And the, the craziest thing that came out in that court case was if you presented at the

00:19:00.360 airport and you just said, you know what, I'm sick, they would send you straight home

00:19:06.280 to quarantine for 14 days.

00:19:08.340 If you present it as healthy, you had to quarantine for three days, then go home for 14 days.

00:19:13.580 So again, doesn't make any sense.

00:19:16.540 Right.

00:19:17.220 Yep.

00:19:18.120 And, uh, so kind of in a, in a joking way, I've been telling people to the two first casualties

00:19:25.600 of the COVID pandemic were rationality and the rule of law.

00:19:29.840 Yeah.

00:19:30.360 And so, I mean, we're, this whole thing can be viewed for, through a lens of like game

00:19:36.400 theory and no, we're, we discovered the rules as we've been going along as scientific studies

00:19:42.220 come out.

00:19:42.600 Oh, it's aerosol.

00:19:43.800 The spread is in the air.

00:19:44.880 Well, then at that point, masks became irrelevant.

00:19:48.240 And what we're really should be concerned about is the amount of air space around us in a room.

00:19:53.640 Smaller rooms get saturated more quickly with aerosol particles of virus.

00:19:58.220 And if we're in a large ventilated space, there's not much concern.

00:20:01.620 So my kids should never have been stopped from playing hockey this year.

00:20:05.840 It was irrational.

00:20:07.220 They're in a large space.

00:20:09.240 There's no concern about an aerosol particle being passed around at any great degree at that

00:20:13.720 such a large space.

00:20:14.760 Kids aren't at risk and masks were useless in that environment.

00:20:19.220 But no, we can't do that because the mob is in charge and the government will just comply

00:20:23.700 with whatever the mob wants.

00:20:25.100 So we have to punish children.

00:20:27.060 Yeah.

00:20:27.240 We're writing policy based on other people's irrational fear.

00:20:30.420 And so many of those people very rarely have children, but they want to hold your children

00:20:34.640 captive to their fear.

00:20:36.720 I wanted to ask you really quick before we move on about, I noticed the police in Toronto,

00:20:43.540 they've come out against forced vaccination and I'm having a really difficult time finding

00:20:48.920 Christian charity in my heart for them.

00:20:50.760 And I know that I should, because this is probably their little, you know, moment where

00:20:56.440 they're mugged by reality because this is starting to affect them.

00:20:59.640 But they spent a summer and a winter and a spring flattening protests of people who didn't

00:21:05.840 want to wear masks inside.

00:21:07.860 And now when the chickens come home to roost and they have to comply by the COVID regulations,

00:21:12.640 it's a bridge too far.

00:21:14.520 Do you think we're going to see more police forces speak out and more, even nurses and

00:21:19.220 doctors who, who has, they've had their unions acting as mouthpieces for the lockdown movement.

00:21:27.920 Do you think we're going to see more individuals in the public sector speak out against these

00:21:32.920 vaccine mandates?

00:21:33.860 I actually, I do, I do think that, and I think that the problem is, is kind of twofold.

00:21:40.940 One is Canadians are, are kind of asleep generally, we're, we're, we're talking of our governments.

00:21:46.880 We've never, our, like our generation has never had to fight for any sort of freedom at all.

00:21:52.480 But it's, it's been completely without cost to us.

00:21:56.280 And we've also never really seen the value of freedom demonstrated to us either.

00:22:02.180 We, we haven't been in the Dominican looking across, you know, at Haiti, or we haven't had

00:22:08.160 to escape Cuba.

00:22:09.240 We've never, most of us have never experienced that.

00:22:12.440 But there is, in my experience, there is one sort of Canadian that does understand that.

00:22:18.220 And Mr. Levant will appreciate this.

00:22:22.000 Canadians that have been dragged through vexatious human rights tribunal proceedings, all of a

00:22:28.220 sudden are woken up to the fact that we live in a country where you can't say what you want

00:22:33.060 to say freely.

00:22:34.060 You have to worry what your neighbours might think of what you're saying.

00:22:37.300 And that sort of thing, when a vexatious and frivolous complaint is made against somebody,

00:22:43.560 and they have to spend a year of their time responding to it, and they have to hire a lawyer,

00:22:47.940 it costs them 1000s of dollars. And even if they're exonerated in the end, their name is

00:22:54.300 dragged through the media as being a bigot. Those people come out the other end, and they

00:23:00.060 have very different views on freedom and liberty. They become zealots, and they understand. And

00:23:06.020 they understand because of their close proximity with having lost their freedom. And so I think

00:23:12.280 now I hope that those Canadians that have not appreciated what they have, now that they're

00:23:18.800 on the cusp of losing something very significant, maybe they'll wake up, maybe they'll stand up,

00:23:25.300 I really hope they will. Because I've got to tell you, it's, it's the majority of us. And we've been

00:23:32.220 saying this stupid bromide for a year and a half that we're all in this together, when nothing could 1.00

00:23:37.820 be further from the truth. We have not all been in this together. And we've been told telling our 1.00

00:23:43.140 kids, take one for the team. And just why, why we would tell our young men that they should get

00:23:50.000 vaccinated and risk the potential heart problems, when they're at zero risk from COVID is beyond me.

00:23:56.720 But you know what, this take one for the team thing needs to go by the wayside, because our team 0.96

00:24:02.800 sucks, and we shouldn't be loyal to it. We need to have people that actually understand

00:24:07.780 the importance of individual liberty. There's no one that knows what's in your best interest,

00:24:13.260 Sheila, better than you. The government should not be in the business of telling you what your 0.95

00:24:18.240 interests are. That is wrong. You know what your interests are better than anyone in the world.

00:24:24.620 Maybe you should take the advice to those around you that love you, because people can get confused

00:24:28.700 sometimes. But that's actually something they've earned through their relationship with you. No

00:24:33.900 bureaucrat sitting in Ottawa can tell you what you should do. They can't know you. They can't know

00:24:38.700 your life. Canadians need to wake up and realize that our number one enemy here is actually not a

00:24:44.620 virus. Our number one enemy is our governments using this against us. All of this is precedent

00:24:50.140 setting. Well, it's interesting to watch the evolution of this misplaced sense of civic duty,

00:24:58.500 that you have to participate in this mass experiment with what looks to be a failing medication to be a

00:25:08.020 good citizen. And if you care about freedom and everybody minding their own business and getting

00:25:12.360 to do what they want with their life and with their family, you're the bad guy. And the scold and

00:25:17.820 the tattletale is the good citizen now. It's very East Germany. Yeah, it is. And it does remind me of, 0.89

00:25:24.760 so I am not an expert on this. I've read a little bit of it, and I encountered some of it in law

00:25:29.900 school. But some of the interesting studies that were done on the German courts during the time

00:25:37.420 around World War II is fascinating. And about how the rule of law was often followed, but when the law

00:25:44.960 is perverse, the rule of law is nothing wonderful. Like you can have evil laws. Sure. And you can follow

00:25:53.140 them to a T. And so many conservatives and lawyers and liberals alike will say, the law was complied

00:26:00.840 with. Well, you know what? Evil laws should not be followed. And that's what makes a law evil. And

00:26:08.860 what makes people able to evaluate that? Well, they have to have a prior moral theory. You have to have

00:26:14.160 some sort of an ethical foundation for your life, where you can evaluate laws. And so that's the

00:26:22.400 other thing I worry about with Canada through all this, is I've seen, I've seen so many people that

00:26:27.880 I've respected fall in line, because it's the law, the government said this, well, I really hope that

00:26:36.180 you had a moral view of what's right and wrong. And that is a, you know, that's another argument that

00:26:43.040 we can have with people or discussion about what right and wrong are. But the fact that people won't

00:26:48.480 even evaluate what's happening is shocking to me, completely shocking, because that's exactly the

00:26:55.780 problem that they had in Germany. That's exactly the problem. The law was followed. The law was evil. 0.57

00:27:03.060 Like, people, you got to wake up, we got to evaluate what's happening, not just comply.

00:27:08.420 Well, and I think, to go off on a little bit of a tangent, but I think that's why

00:27:13.380 some of the crackdown, the COVID crackdown, particularly here in Alberta, was so harsh

00:27:18.640 on churches, is that the government can never bring people who answer to a higher moral code

00:27:25.060 into compliance with a bad law, because they are doing exactly what you're saying. They're

00:27:29.380 evaluating the law through a specific moral lens and saying, no, I cannot in good conscience

00:27:35.420 abide by that law. And I think that's why the crackdown was so harsh. It was meant to discourage

00:27:41.020 anybody else who's guided by that moral compass. Maybe they, you know, to discourage them from

00:27:48.700 getting the idea that maybe they should stand up to. Yeah, I would agree with that. And I mean,

00:27:54.880 it's sort of trite now, all these months later, but Caesar doesn't like competition.

00:28:01.680 Yeah. And, and I've learned, like, I've learned through my experience doing constitutional litigation

00:28:08.400 in a charity, that if you stand up, and you put your head up and fight the government,

00:28:13.760 what happens is they crush you, they absolutely come to crush you. So I had that conversation on

00:28:21.820 QR 77 with, with a host here in Calgary, just before Christmas. And we were discussing these sorts of

00:28:28.680 matters. And at that time, Pastor Coates had just done his now famous sermon and put it on YouTube.

00:28:35.640 And so I had that, that conversation. And, and then later, we took it offline. And, and the discussion

00:28:44.400 was, well, I hope, I hope the government of Alberta takes a reasonable approach. And I said, there's going

00:28:50.120 to be no reasonable approach. It doesn't work that way. If you, if you stand up against the government,

00:28:55.460 they have to make an example of you, they're coming to crush you. That's the only way it works.

00:29:00.580 So I had a client, Bruce Montague. He was famous back in late 90s, early 2000s, for protesting the gun

00:29:08.080 registry. He intent, he's a gunsmith from, from rural Ontario. And he intentionally did not register

00:29:16.380 his firearms collection. He wanted to get arrested to do a constitutional challenge. And so here he is,

00:29:23.020 he's just a guy who didn't do his paperwork. And he wanted to get his day in court. And so he finally,

00:29:29.060 after two years of trying, protesting it publicly, flaunting it in front of the RCMP, he finally got

00:29:34.720 arrested. And so what did they do? Well, they found him a couple of hours from home at a trade show.

00:29:41.960 They arrested him in front of his daughter. She was, I think, 12 at the time, left her stranded

00:29:46.500 without her dad. Dad got hauled off to prison. And that, so that was the first thing. So then the

00:29:52.960 next thing they did is they went after his gun collection, which fine, it was, it was part of

00:29:59.120 the criminal act. They took that. And then they went into his house. They took everything from his

00:30:04.320 house, his computers, his wife's cookbooks, the, all the silverware, the whole house was emptied. It was a

00:30:10.220 house that was empty. They took that from him. And then they started a civil forfeiture proceeding

00:30:15.740 against his house. They're going to take this 50 some year old man who tried to try to get his day

00:30:21.800 in court to do a constitutional challenge for the good of Canadians. And they're going to crush him.

00:30:27.160 They took his house away, his house that he built with his own hands. So this is what happens in my

00:30:32.720 experience is that they can't, they can't broach any competition. The government can't have a

00:30:37.920 competitor. It's a monopoly. They're the only game in town. They won't, they don't like it when other

00:30:44.100 people stand up to them. So Pastor Coates and the past, other pastors that have stood up,

00:30:49.920 this is the only response that could be expected. The government has to come in and crush them.

00:30:56.240 And that is not acceptable. That is not acceptable. Well, it's not even close to over yet. One of our

00:31:03.560 fight the fines clients church in the vine in Edmonton, they're still receiving tickets and

00:31:10.540 charges because they're sort of backdating them now to all the times that they didn't let Alberta

00:31:16.560 Health Services and Occupational Health and Safety, another long arm of the government they

00:31:21.260 used to crush these churches, come in and interrupt their services. So, you know, it never ends. And,

00:31:27.480 you know, when I see sort of backdating of tickets and charges, I know there's another lockdown coming,

00:31:34.280 just as you predict. They will do this again. And they're already taking care of the troublemakers in

00:31:39.500 advance. Yeah. Yeah. That's, I can guarantee they're thinking that way. And, you know, the government is

00:31:46.080 just another actor. They're a very special actor in society because they're venerated for some reason

00:31:53.220 by many Canadians as being somehow that when a politician or a bureaucrat works for the government,

00:31:59.980 that they suddenly stop being a human and they're an angel with the motivation of an angel.

00:32:06.140 It's mind-numbing to me how people can believe this with all the evidence to the contrary.

00:32:11.920 They're just another actor that has extraordinary powers and yet is not held in check. And that's

00:32:18.580 my big worry with all of this is that the constitution is supposed to hold the government

00:32:23.720 in check. It's supposed to be there. The rule of law is supposed to be there for Canadians to rely on

00:32:31.400 in times when we most need it. You know, in freedom of expression cases, it's not for saying things that

00:32:38.200 the status quo believes. Like, I like the colour of the sky when it's like it is outside right now.

00:32:44.320 That is not controversial. I don't need constitutional protection from the state when I say that. It's

00:32:50.180 when I say controversial things about controversial topics that the constitution has to be there to

00:32:55.760 protect me because that's what we've all agreed on. That's what it's for. But yet in times like this,

00:33:02.880 I find that the constitution is a very hard document to rely on. It's like being at a baseball game.

00:33:09.700 You have to, you're the cleanup batter, you have to win the game for your team. And you're going to

00:33:16.320 work with a bat that you know is going to shatter in your hand and cut you. You can't rely on it.

00:33:22.740 And that's what I worry right now with our with the constitution in the charter is that it is a broken

00:33:27.860 bat at a time when we need it. We need to hit one out of the park for freedom. That bat is going to

00:33:34.280 break in our hands and damage us. And we can't rely on it. And that that honestly is my biggest concern.

00:33:41.740 Yeah, as somebody once told me to view the constitution as a restraining order against

00:33:47.420 the government. You know, yeah, yeah, it should be it should be the rules of the game that they have

00:33:54.180 to follow. Yeah, they they find ways to get it. They sure do. Now I wanted to ask you really quickly

00:34:01.840 about Premier Jason Kenney, who has been noticeably absent during this federal campaign as one of the

00:34:10.260 at least now, although he wasn't always a vocal opponent against the lockdown. Jason Kenney

00:34:18.180 today is much different from Jason Kenney 90 days ago or a year ago. However, he's sort of been

00:34:24.800 disappeared, I think, from the campaign trail when normally he is out there in the forefront during

00:34:32.220 these things. But he has said that he would be against vaccine passports and he would fight the

00:34:41.340 federal government if they sought to impose one. And yet he hasn't said anything while Jason, while

00:34:48.300 Justin Trudeau won't shut up about vaccine passports. And while here in Alberta, we've seen

00:34:54.180 the flames, we've seen the oilers, they're all bringing in vaccine passports for you to be in 1.00

00:35:00.460 attendance and the stampede. Again, if you wanted to watch live music at the stampede, you had to

00:35:05.320 produce proof of vaccination or submit to a medical test, which I can't even believe I'm saying, but

00:35:10.640 that's the world we live in now. Where's Jason Kenney is my question for you.

00:35:14.480 Oh, boy, that is such a tough one. And I really hesitate to say what I think his motivations are,

00:35:23.720 because I just don't know. But he is noticeably absent. And I do recognize exactly what you said,

00:35:29.440 that he has come out on those issues in a very seemingly strong way. But I think the best judge

00:35:38.400 of future behavior is past behavior. And so this is the this is the Jason Kenney, who apologized last

00:35:46.980 May for shutting down schools and said it'll never happen again. And then lo and behold, what was it

00:35:52.540 twice, twice more, he did it to us, to my kids. And so past behavior, he's a, he's a man that seems to

00:36:01.040 say one thing and he does another. And, you know, this is a time in Canada's history where we require

00:36:08.020 strong leadership. Yeah, we require someone who, who doesn't have aspirations beyond doing what's

00:36:15.800 right. Someone who's not looking for a future in Ottawa. It requires a leader who is willing to take

00:36:24.760 a tough stand and look at the actual consequences of what he's doing. And the consequences of what

00:36:32.880 might be done to us and say, this is my hill to die on. That's, that's the type of leader that Alberta 0.91

00:36:40.780 requires right now. And it's going to be a leader that has to buck against popular trends. I mean,

00:36:48.780 there's a very concerted effort in the media right now. It's, you know, I think I could tell you the day

00:36:53.500 it started. I look back at my text messages, the day it started. Joseph Vipon, that doctor from

00:37:00.020 Calgary who works in the ER, started hitting the press that day advocating for more lockdowns and

00:37:07.240 vaccine passports. The Calgary Chamber of Commerce came out that day and advocated for vaccine passports.

00:37:14.780 I mean, this is, it's, it, it looks like a concerted effort. It doesn't make any sense when you

00:37:22.300 understand what the vaccines do. But my impression is that there's a lot of divergent interests at play

00:37:28.760 here. Public sector unions want one thing, and they're using this as an opportunity to get what

00:37:35.720 they want. The Chamber of Commerce is probably most interested in getting customers back. And they've

00:37:43.020 miscalculated thinking that the way we can get customers most comfortable back in, you know,

00:37:49.500 the, the flames arena and back in watching Oilers games that most, we can get more people back and

00:37:55.560 feeling more comfortable about it. If we can tell them the person sitting beside you has taken two

00:38:00.580 vaccine, vaccine doses. I think it's a calculation on their part. I think it's a miscalculation,

00:38:06.600 but that explains, I think why it's irrational from the point of view of, you know, looking at what

00:38:13.480 the vaccine is actually capable of doing. And Jason Kenney needs to step up and correct the record.

00:38:19.600 I think a strong leader would do so. But I'm always worried that there's that idea like,

00:38:27.680 oh, I'm moving on to Ottawa someday. And right now, Alberta, Alberta doesn't need someone who's looking

00:38:34.920 past doing the right thing now. Yeah, in a world of Cuomo's try to be a DeSantis. And I'm not sure

00:38:43.280 if we're not sure if we're getting that from Jason Kenney. Now, before I let you go, because I

00:38:47.940 promised you 20 minutes, and I think we're going on 35. I know that you have been giving advice to

00:38:55.440 people about vaccine passports and a little bit of employment advice with regard to people who work

00:39:01.360 in private industry who are potentially could face unemployment if they don't take the vaccine.

00:39:10.260 What is your one little bit of advice to those people out there?

00:39:15.260 Keep track of everything. I think the most important thing is right now with your employer,

00:39:20.500 all your interaction with them, whether you're unionized or not, whether you have a government

00:39:24.780 employer or a private employer, is you need to keep track of everything that happens. Build your case

00:39:31.560 now, collect the evidence. Every conversation, intentionally write down when it was,

00:39:37.540 what it was about. You need to have all that in place because if you're ultimately dismissed

00:39:42.600 because you stand up for your own rights, you will do far better when you speak to a lawyer at that

00:39:48.440 point if you have a clear line of evidence establishing your case. Well, Derek, I want to

00:39:55.280 thank you for being so generous with your time. I'm a little ashamed it's taken so long to have you on

00:39:59.520 the show because you're such a smart legal thinker and a true believer in freedom. And I hope that

00:40:04.880 you'll come back on again very soon. Yeah, I'd be happy to. Thanks, Derek.

00:40:16.800 Derek tells me he's absolutely inundated by people who are calling with concerns and legal questions

00:40:23.420 about being forced by their employers, both in the public and private sector, but also by their schools

00:40:29.800 and post-secondary institutions to receive a vaccine they are morally or medically opposed to. And friends,

00:40:37.820 we're getting the exact same thing here at Rebel News. People have questions. But for me, the question remains

00:40:44.860 as it has through the entirety of this pandemic. Where are all the civil liberties groups outside of,

00:40:51.320 of course, fightthefines.com and the Justice Centre and the Canadian Constitution Foundation to actually

00:40:58.380 stand up for the civil liberties of Canadians? You know, it's pretty easy to stand up for civil liberties

00:41:05.820 when no one, no government is taking them away. But it is hard work to fight the full force of the

00:41:12.800 government when the government is trying to crush you and make an example of you. Now, I'm not scared

00:41:18.340 of hard work. Derek is clearly not scared of hard work. But we are definitely finding out that a lot

00:41:24.400 of so-called civil libertarians fear hard work as much as they fear the coronavirus. Well, everybody,

00:41:31.620 that's the show for tonight. Thank you so much for tuning in. I'll see everybody back here at the same

00:41:37.240 time in the same place next weekend. Remember, don't let the government tell you that you've had too much to think.

00:41:42.800 olduğunu, like a lot of people here, don't let the government tell you if you're beginning to speak origembleness.

00:41:46.340 Are those sav cool?

00:41:47.780 And that's the same passage that we may be spending on.

00:41:48.920 How it is theANEMChair is not meant to understand, which is, as you know,

00:41:50.720 Ben, Svenja. You've got Run for determinants inань,

00:41:51.580 Seriality, that's perfect especially when you see the United States of London.

00:41:53.520 And so we concur people there already don't let the government say that,

00:41:54.900 so well- acne again. And you should say mira Biden.

00:41:59.980 So we're just looking forward to making that 90 million years ago,

00:42:03.720 if you've been using 30 advocating BO Liu çocuğ jedochisan,

00:42:06.160 you know UFO fills everyone except for theない Africa.

00:42:06.980 And we're going to think about this in half a year to connaughter interface.

00:42:07.800 How the lead help will happen?

00:42:09.240 ems staan goodness rural teams?

Rebel News Podcast - August 26, 2021

SHEILA GUNN REID ｜ Constitutional Lawyer Derek From： Coerced Vaccination and Fighting for Your Rights

Episode Stats

Summary

Transcript