Rebel News Podcast - March 08, 2019


Trudeau tells yet another version of his SNC-Lavalin story — “and he might get away with it”


Episode Stats


Length

42 minutes

Words per minute

173.57349

Word count

7,401

Sentence count

526

Harmful content

Misogyny

9

sentences flagged

Toxicity

12

sentences flagged

Hate speech

4

sentences flagged


Summary

Summaries generated with gmurro/bart-large-finetuned-filtered-spotify-podcast-summ .

Justin Trudeau gives yet another version of his story in the SNC-Lavalin scandal, and I think he might get away with it. Today's show also looks at why Canada's oil production is falling, and why it's a big deal.

Transcript

Transcript generated with Whisper (turbo).
Misogyny classifications generated with MilaNLProc/bert-base-uncased-ear-misogyny .
Toxicity classifications generated with s-nlp/roberta_toxicity_classifier .
Hate speech classifications generated with facebook/roberta-hate-speech-dynabench-r4-target .
00:00:00.000 Hello, my Rebels. Welcome to another free audio podcast. I'm getting some letters from folks who
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00:00:48.800 while you're listening, can you give me a good rating if you think it is indeed a good show?
00:00:52.880 I hope you think it is. Today, we look at Justin Trudeau's latest alibi in the SNC-Lavalin
00:00:59.300 fiasco. Without further ado, here's the free audio version of that show.
00:01:04.060 You're listening to a Rebel Media Podcast.
00:01:07.280 Tonight, Justin Trudeau gives yet another version of his story in the SNC-Lavalin scandal.
00:01:13.860 And I think he might get away with it. It's March 7th and this is the Ezra LeVant Show.
00:01:18.300 Why should others go to jail when you're a biggest carbon consumer I know?
00:01:24.100 There's 8,500 customers here and you won't give them an answer.
00:01:28.160 The only thing I have to say to the government about why I'm publishing it is because it's
00:01:32.560 my bloody right to do so.
00:01:39.440 You know, the biggest news I saw today was this.
00:01:42.540 The National Energy Board, NEB, is predicting that Canadian crude oil production will decrease
00:01:49.960 this year for the first time since 2009.
00:01:54.420 And they have a handy graph on the news story which shows that after a decade of very impressive
00:02:00.100 growth, Canadian oil production is falling.
00:02:04.420 How? How can that happen?
00:02:05.720 Canada has the third largest oil reserves in the world, behind only Venezuela and Saudi Arabia.
00:02:12.820 And we're right next to the huge markets of the United States thirsty for oil.
00:02:18.480 And we have both Atlantic and Pacific coasts so we could ship oil to anyone.
00:02:23.060 And we have the world's most ethical oil when measured by any standards.
00:02:27.140 Environmental responsibility, peace, the fair treatment of workers, human rights.
00:02:31.300 How on earth could our oil production actually be shrinking? 0.52
00:02:36.000 Well, Justin Trudeau and Rachel Notley are hell.
00:02:39.160 Carbon taxes, pipeline cancellations, production caps, and the general war on industry.
00:02:44.000 With more to come, I know I've shown this clip twice already this week, but I think you need
00:02:48.380 to see it a third time.
00:02:49.480 This is how insane our government is.
00:02:51.400 Project's decisions will be based on science, evidence, and indigenous traditional knowledge.
00:02:56.780 We're also taking a bigger picture look at the potential impacts of our proposed projects.
00:03:01.300 Instead of just looking at the environmental impacts, we'll look at how a project could
00:03:05.600 affect our communities and health, jobs and the economy over the long term, and we'll
00:03:10.740 also do a gender-based analysis.
00:03:13.060 Yeah.
00:03:14.020 Are you surprised our oil production is going down?
00:03:17.260 By contrast, the United States is now the largest oil producer in the world.
00:03:21.880 Massive growth, partly through technology.
00:03:24.980 Fracking has unlocked so much oil in places like North Dakota and the Permian Basin of Texas.
00:03:30.280 Texas, but also Donald Trump.
00:03:32.400 He's ended drilling bans.
00:03:35.180 He's fast-tracked pipelines.
00:03:37.220 America has a tiny fraction of the amount of oil reserves Canada has.
00:03:40.700 They don't have any oil sands, but they're doubling, tripling our production up here.
00:03:45.280 How is that possible?
00:03:47.360 Now, that's huge news, I think.
00:03:50.120 We're getting clobbered.
00:03:51.420 We should be owning this moment, but we're not.
00:03:53.360 I think this is a big reason we're headed into a recession in Canada, by the way.
00:03:58.740 But instead of dealing with that or the executive order signed by Donald Trump a few weeks ago
00:04:03.720 for his Buy American Trade Barriers, our whole political class is instead obsessed by Justin Trudeau's
00:04:09.560 scandals.
00:04:09.960 Even the U.S. ambassador, who should be fighting for Canadian exports to the United States,
00:04:16.100 fighting for a Canadian exemption to the Buy American order, he's busy holed up in Ottawa
00:04:20.700 with Trudeau trying to fix his corruption scandal.
00:04:24.180 I don't know why that's his job.
00:04:25.560 That's what he's doing instead of fighting for our jobs.
00:04:29.620 So yesterday, Gerald Butts came out with his side of the story.
00:04:33.280 It didn't rebut many of the points made by Jody Wilson-Raybould.
00:04:36.680 Gerald Butts himself was only at one meeting out of the 10 meetings in question.
00:04:42.880 There were 10 more phone calls, too.
00:04:45.060 But Gerald Butts coming out and essentially calling Wilson-Raybould a liar, blunted what
00:04:50.560 she had said, made it a he said, she said story, not really denying any facts.
00:04:56.280 I don't think he could, but denying feelings and saying it meant different things, saying
00:05:01.980 no, no, no, no, no.
00:05:02.680 He didn't pressure her to drop the criminal charges against SNC-Lavalin.
00:05:07.040 He was just trying to persuade her.
00:05:09.400 You see, there's a big difference.
00:05:11.960 Yeah, no, there's no difference.
00:05:13.780 But here's how it works.
00:05:15.020 Until yesterday, it was just she said and she said, Jody Wilson-Raybould and Jane Philpott,
00:05:21.220 the impressive cabinet minister who quit with a stunning letter saying she just couldn't
00:05:25.540 trust Trudeau anymore.
00:05:26.660 Yesterday, though, it became she said, she said, and he said.
00:05:30.860 And so today, Justin Trudeau himself weighed in as if he were above the fray, as if he
00:05:36.640 wasn't part of the scandal himself, as if he wasn't the heart of the scandal, as if he
00:05:40.860 wasn't the one who sent 10 of his staff to pressure Jody Wilson-Raybould.
00:05:44.580 He described himself as someone observing, commenting outside of it, as if he were a referee,
00:05:50.620 not a fighter in a battle.
00:05:52.180 You see, he said, there are two sides of the story.
00:05:55.540 There's Jody Wilson-Raybould and there's Gerald Butts.
00:05:57.900 And Justin Trudeau will now weigh in and tell you, well, you're both right.
00:06:02.080 He's made Butts the antagonist, unlike himself.
00:06:05.820 He's untainted.
00:06:07.200 It was Butts versus Raybould.
00:06:08.480 And now Trudeau will come in to show you what really happened.
00:06:11.140 Let me show you some clips.
00:06:12.740 I've taken time to review the testimony, to reflect on what has happened over the past
00:06:17.500 months and on what our next steps should be.
00:06:21.080 Oh, so he's reviewed things like a judge would review a case.
00:06:24.760 So he's not a party, no, no, no, he's not the accused, he's not an actor in this drama.
00:06:29.780 He's outside of it, he's a critic of it, he's an observer, he's neutral, like you and
00:06:34.520 I are.
00:06:34.980 We're just observing things, but he's more of a father figure.
00:06:37.440 He's reflected on what other people have done.
00:06:39.760 He's done some thinking about what other people could do better.
00:06:43.220 And yeah, sure, he interfered, but in a good way?
00:06:46.180 And as you heard, I reaffirmed that the decision was up to the Agide to make.
00:06:54.100 Yes, I did mention that I was a member for Papineau and I have the great honour to represent
00:07:00.080 Papineau and I've done this for more than 10 years.
00:07:03.960 I care about the families, workers and students in my writing.
00:07:08.140 But this comment wasn't partisan in nature.
00:07:12.260 Remember, Jody Wilson-Raybould said that he emphasised the Quebec election.
00:07:17.000 Trudeau emphasised his own personal re-election, his own personal seat in Quebec.
00:07:21.740 But no, no, no, no, you see, that's not partisan because he said it wasn't.
00:07:26.400 Oh, and he's been reflecting on this, he's been reviewing it, and he's happy to conclude
00:07:31.080 after some deep thoughts that he did nothing wrong.
00:07:34.380 Case closed.
00:07:35.140 So when Trudeau told Jody Wilson-Raybould to think about her decision again, and when
00:08:00.740 she was pressured literally 20 times, you see, he was just an ordinary MP doing what
00:08:06.520 you'd want any backbench MP to do.
00:08:09.340 He wasn't interfering with a justice minister that he could fire and did indeed fire.
00:08:14.880 No, no, no, no, no.
00:08:16.040 He was just a local advocate caring about jobs in the community.
00:08:21.100 I love the phrasing here, the third person language.
00:08:23.980 He wasn't in the fray.
00:08:24.980 He's the one judging the fray.
00:08:26.700 He's not implicated.
00:08:27.800 Each of these interactions was a conversation among colleagues about how to tackle a challenging
00:08:34.980 issue.
00:08:36.240 Each came at a time when my staff and I believed that the former minister of justice and attorney
00:08:42.680 general was open to considering other aspects of the public interest.
00:08:48.080 However, I now understand that she saw it differently.
00:08:52.520 I'm presiding over quarreling colleagues.
00:08:55.780 I'm not the problem.
00:08:56.560 No, no, no, I'm actually solving the problem here, people.
00:08:59.500 And sure, Jody Wilson-Raybould says she doesn't trust me, but that seems to be really her as
00:09:04.920 the problem, isn't it?
00:09:06.020 I mean, she got all paranoid and weird about things.
00:09:09.000 What has become clear through the various testimonies is that over the past months, there was an erosion
00:09:15.900 of trust between my office and specifically my former principal secretary and the former minister of justice and attorney general.
00:09:25.080 I was not aware of that erosion of trust.
00:09:29.320 As prime minister and leader of the federal ministry, I should have been.
00:09:33.540 And you see, when people say they don't trust him, when he's crooked, when he's corrupt, that's just a healthy discussion.
00:09:42.680 It doesn't mean anything.
00:09:43.960 It's sharing perspectives.
00:09:45.580 Many people have been sharing their advice, perspectives, and experience with me over these past weeks.
00:09:52.800 I believe that real leadership is about listening, learning, and compassion.
00:09:59.940 It's about the push and pull of robust discourse and honest debate.
00:10:05.900 It's about transparency and accountability.
00:10:08.720 So there you have it.
00:10:10.520 He's all about transparency and accountability.
00:10:13.420 I mean, sure, his MPs blocked the release of all internal communications on the subject.
00:10:18.720 But other than that, right?
00:10:20.780 And all those women saying he's untrustworthy?
00:10:23.540 Good talk, ladies. 1.00
00:10:25.040 Good talk.
00:10:26.680 You totally respect your right to experience things differently.
00:10:30.120 That the same interactions could be experienced very differently from one person to the next.
00:10:38.040 And I am not going to speak for the woman in question.
00:10:42.160 I would never presume to speak for her.
00:10:45.620 But I know that there is an awful lot of reflection to be had as we move forward as a society on how people perceive different interactions.
00:10:55.600 Like I said, I do not feel that I acted inappropriately in any way.
00:11:01.900 But I respect the fact that someone else might have experienced that differently.
00:11:08.040 Oh, sorry, that clip there was his excuse for sexually assaulting Rose Knight, the young lady back in Crest in B.C.
00:11:14.900 Same style, same alibi as today.
00:11:18.400 And by the way, don't think you'll be able to talk about corruption of justice because he's going to use the word justice more than you do.
00:11:26.420 I have spent my entire political career fighting for justice and for people, social justice, protecting Canadian jobs.
00:11:39.400 Well, since I started politics, I've always worked to the best of my abilities to represent people faithfully.
00:11:47.340 The SNC-Lavalin file was no exception to this rule.
00:11:52.180 Now, that's obviously untrue.
00:11:53.420 He hasn't lifted a finger for 200,000 unemployed oil and gas workers other than to cancel pipelines and bring in McKenna's crazy bill with gender analysis for pipelines.
00:12:03.160 He hasn't fought for jobs.
00:12:04.680 And I can't name any justice he's fought for.
00:12:06.680 He's actually fighting to exempt rich Quebec companies from justice.
00:12:11.020 But even that's not allowed.
00:12:13.440 In fact, it's illegal to consider job losses as a reason for not prosecuting a criminal company.
00:12:19.120 This is an excerpt from the criminal code.
00:12:21.840 Factors not to consider.
00:12:25.100 The national economic interest.
00:12:26.400 You see that right in the middle of that quote there?
00:12:28.060 But that's exactly the excuse he used.
00:12:30.280 And really, who's going to call him on it?
00:12:34.200 The CBC?
00:12:34.780 The CBC, Lavalin, is a company that employs 9,000 Canadians across this country.
00:12:41.440 They create many thousand spin-off jobs in peripheral industries.
00:12:46.880 They directly or indirectly put food on the table for countless families as one of Canada's major employers.
00:12:54.320 Yeah, he did this to stop people from starving?
00:12:59.220 He did this to put food on the table, people.
00:13:01.560 Because, God forbid, a company with a market capitalization of more than $6 billion.
00:13:06.960 That's what SNC, Lavalin, trades at on the stock market.
00:13:10.680 God forbid they'd have to pay, I don't know, $50 million in fines.
00:13:13.780 It's like lunch money to them.
00:13:16.060 I mean, they paid $48 million in bribes in Libya, but don't expect them to pay $48 million in fines.
00:13:21.380 I mean, otherwise there would be starvation in Quebec.
00:13:23.220 Trudeau's just putting food on the table.
00:13:25.400 Don't you know?
00:13:26.280 Put a kook. 0.82
00:13:26.940 But, hey, good talk, people.
00:13:29.380 I really enjoyed this talk about corruption.
00:13:31.040 I'll keep fighting for justice.
00:13:32.960 And he does that slow-talking thing that he does when he's treating us like schoolchildren.
00:13:40.360 Like we're at We Day or something.
00:13:43.900 Ultimately, I believe our government will be stronger for having wrestled with these issues.
00:13:49.840 All right, everyone, it's over.
00:13:52.280 You had the wrestling.
00:13:53.900 And guess what?
00:13:54.960 Everything's fine.
00:13:55.680 No need for more inquiries.
00:13:57.140 No need for a public inquiry.
00:13:58.780 No need for an independent inquiry.
00:14:00.600 No need for a criminal inquiry.
00:14:03.140 Trudeau has made all the inquiries.
00:14:04.840 And he says,
00:14:06.220 We're all stronger for this, mes amis.
00:14:09.860 Now, some reporters were a little bit skeptical.
00:14:11.780 But you can see the skepticism waning.
00:14:14.320 Let me show you a few replies.
00:14:15.580 The Minister Rosenblatt says that she told you on September 17th that she had made her decision.
00:14:20.740 And after that, you told your staff to continue to work on the file.
00:14:24.080 Why would you ask them to continue to work on it if she told you she'd already made up her mind?
00:14:28.180 Part of the terms of the DPA indicates that that decision can be taken by the Attorney General up until the very last minute of the trial.
00:14:40.460 So we considered that she was still open to hearing different arguments and different approaches on what her decision could be.
00:14:51.860 As we now learn through this testimony, that was not the case.
00:14:56.480 But like I said, there was an erosion of trust, a lack of communications to me and to my office about her state of mind on this.
00:15:11.480 And that is certainly something that I'm having to reflect on as a leader and that I'm looking forward to improving on as we go forward.
00:15:18.660 I've always tried to foster an environment in which people can come and share with me their concerns, large or small, whether they be cabinet ministers or caucus members.
00:15:28.660 But there's always room for improvement, obviously.
00:15:32.200 But that's not the law.
00:15:33.320 The law is clear.
00:15:34.000 This is actually directly from the Prime Minister's own website.
00:15:36.680 It is illegal for anyone to approach the Attorney General to pressure her.
00:15:42.020 Illegal.
00:15:42.720 She can consult with others if she chooses to.
00:15:45.220 They can't pester her not once, let alone 20 times.
00:15:47.400 Let me quote.
00:15:48.020 This is from the Prime Minister's own website.
00:15:50.640 It is appropriate for the Attorney General to consult with cabinet colleagues before exercising his or her powers under the DPP Act, that's the Public Prosecutions Act, in respect of any criminal proceedings, in order to fully assess the public policy considerations relevant to specific prosecutorial decisions.
00:16:08.180 Now, she did.
00:16:09.640 She consulted and she made her decision.
00:16:12.500 But Trudeau and his cronies wouldn't stop trying to get her to change her mind.
00:16:16.140 That's against the law.
00:16:18.240 She held the line, so they fired her. 0.95
00:16:21.020 Here was another question of the day.
00:16:22.640 Canadians are seeing two versions.
00:16:25.180 Why should they believe your version, Mr. Butts' version, as opposed to Ms. Wilson-Raybould's version?
00:16:30.780 I acknowledge that within my office, and with respect to the testimony by Ms. Wilson-Raybould, there are different perspectives.
00:16:44.600 As Prime Minister, I can reassure Canadians that the integrity of our institutions was never affected, our justice system and the independence of it was always maintained.
00:17:03.800 Situations were experienced differently, and I regret that.
00:17:11.640 I plan to ensure that we have measures in place to improve the way my office works when it comes to contact with ministers and caucus members.
00:17:29.360 But Canadians can rest assured that the rule of law remains fully intact.
00:17:37.040 Hey, guys, she just experienced it differently.
00:17:40.240 You know how women can be. 1.00
00:17:42.720 Well, you can't know because Trudeau won't actually waive her cabinet privilege over anything she was told after being sacked as the attorney general.
00:17:49.360 And they won't release any of her own emails like they selectively did for Gerald Butts.
00:17:55.660 Okay, but what about the politics?
00:17:57.300 What about the Quebec elections?
00:17:59.920 Prime Minister, you said off the top that transparency is an important part of leadership.
00:18:03.860 So in that vein, can you confirm for us what your staff said to Jody Wilson-Raybould exactly and whether they raised the political concerns,
00:18:10.920 such as needing to get re-elected in their conversations with her?
00:18:14.360 Because that's an important part of the story I think Canadians would like an answer on from your office.
00:18:17.880 I'm sure there were a broad range of issues discussed in these conversations.
00:18:22.340 We heard detailed testimony on that over the past couple of days.
00:18:28.220 And certainly the ethics commissioner will be looking into these matters to ensure that the highest ethical standards were kept and maintained and addressed.
00:18:37.600 This is something that continues to be a process.
00:18:40.460 Oh, so no denial, no denial that he was saying, you've got to do this so I can win in Quebec.
00:18:46.400 But he knows he's fine because his handpicked ethics counselor will review things.
00:18:51.440 And that's all that needs to happen here, people.
00:18:54.560 I say again, it's illegal to interfere in a criminal prosecution.
00:18:57.900 It's against Section 139 of the Criminal Code.
00:19:00.160 It's called obstruction.
00:19:02.200 Jody Wilson-Raybould could ask for advice and input if she needed it.
00:19:05.580 But then it's done.
00:19:07.720 It's not open for endless lobbying.
00:19:10.860 But we've just learned it's not done until Trudeau says it's done, until he gets his way.
00:19:16.480 Listening to Mr. Butts yesterday and again this morning,
00:19:20.580 the SNC-Lavalin cost two ministers Mr. Butts' position in summary.
00:19:26.480 It's a misunderstanding between your office and Ms. Wilson-Raybould.
00:19:32.700 That's what it boils down to.
00:19:35.880 There is a difference of perspective.
00:19:40.020 We feel that Ms. Wilson-Raybould was ready to consider other options.
00:19:48.260 And we have learned since that she was not open to that.
00:19:51.900 She considered that each time we mentioned it, it was inappropriate.
00:20:02.780 For me and my team to continue talking about such an important issue, well, that's part of our job.
00:20:09.260 Yeah, he really thought she liked the 20 calls and meetings. 0.99
00:20:13.600 Just like he thought Rose Knight was really into his ass-grabbing back in Creston, B.C. 1.00
00:20:19.400 And after all, she never said no, or at least she didn't say it enough times. 0.98
00:20:25.540 Prime Minister, can we come back to September 17th?
00:20:28.880 What exactly and precisely did you say to Jody Wilson-Raybould?
00:20:34.300 And what exactly did you not understand when she said, back off?
00:20:39.600 I said to her that I was preoccupied by the number of jobs involved in this, in Quebec and obviously across the country.
00:20:51.800 This is something that I was clear on.
00:20:54.500 And then I asked her, even though I heard that she had made a decision, she indicated to me that she had made a decision.
00:21:02.020 I asked her if she could revisit that decision, if she was open to considering, to looking at it once again.
00:21:10.100 And she said that she would.
00:21:13.020 As we look back and as we hear her testimony, as I understand, she went back and revisited it over the following days and reconfirmed her decision for herself.
00:21:23.740 And then felt that it was inappropriate when we continued to talk about it and have conversations about it over the course of the fall.
00:21:34.420 I wish she had come forward to me in the fall subsequent to that meeting to highlight that she did not.
00:21:42.380 And that, quite frankly, is something that I am reflecting on as a leader to make sure that everyone within my office and my cabinet and my caucus know that they can come forward to me with preoccupations like this.
00:21:55.260 I mean, come on.
00:21:56.320 Who are you going to believe?
00:21:58.560 Now, in recent days, Trudeau released a trial balloon to the media.
00:22:02.220 Should he apologize?
00:22:03.640 He's thinking of apologizing.
00:22:06.000 Because, you know, that's how all the heartfelt apologies are done.
00:22:08.700 They're focus grouped and tested out first.
00:22:10.900 Maybe run a quick poll.
00:22:12.380 And survey says no apology needed.
00:22:16.580 I will be making an Inuit apology this afternoon. 0.94
00:22:19.720 But in regards to standing up for jobs and defending the integrity of our rule of law, I continue to say that there was no inappropriate pressure.
00:22:34.900 Not just that.
00:22:36.520 He has nothing to apologize for.
00:22:38.660 In fact, you see, he's the one who was defending the rule of law.
00:22:41.780 Well, he actually said that.
00:22:42.980 He actually said he's the one on the side of the rule of law.
00:22:46.280 You thought it was Jody Wilson-Raybould? 0.98
00:22:47.620 Well, don't be silly. 0.98
00:22:48.960 That's just some girl from Vancouver. 1.00
00:22:51.080 We've already forgotten her name.
00:22:53.380 I say again what I said yesterday.
00:22:54.820 Unless the RCMP investigate, he's going to get away with this.
00:22:59.100 Oh, and the economy and all that?
00:23:01.500 Well, I'm sure you're just experiencing that differently than he is.
00:23:07.500 Stay with us for more.
00:23:08.560 In recent days, I have reviewed the testimony from the Justice Committee, including that given by Ms. Wilson-Raybould, Gerald Butts, the Clerk of the Privy Council, and the Deputy Minister of Justice and Deputy Attorney General, recalling various interactions.
00:23:37.940 Each of these interactions was a conversation among colleagues about how to tackle a challenging issue.
00:23:46.720 Each came at a time when my staff and I believed that the former Minister of Justice and Attorney General was open to considering other aspects of the public interest.
00:23:57.900 However, I now understand that she saw it differently.
00:24:03.280 Oh, he says that a lot, doesn't he?
00:24:05.100 That's actually the exact same wording he used when he was asked about the sexual assault on Rose Knight, a young reporter for the National Post in Creston, B.C. in the year 2000.
00:24:16.240 He apologized in the moment, but later last year when asked about it, he said, well, she just experienced it differently.
00:24:24.860 Is this excuse enough to get him off?
00:24:28.340 He had a press conference this morning and answered some questions.
00:24:31.880 Has he diffused the scandal?
00:24:34.440 Is it enough for liberal partisans to cheerlead their leader again?
00:24:38.500 Is it enough to make most of the media forget about the story?
00:24:41.940 Joining us now to talk about this is our friend Anthony Feary with the Toronto Sun.
00:24:46.220 Great to see you again, Anthony.
00:24:47.400 You have a new column out.
00:24:48.480 Let me read the headline.
00:24:49.940 This is all about credibility.
00:24:51.780 And Wilson-Raybould comes out on top.
00:24:54.240 Do you think Justin Trudeau's comments today tilted the scales at all, at least in the court of public opinion?
00:25:00.220 I don't at all, Ezra.
00:25:03.000 I mean, maybe slightly in the court of public opinion for people who would like to believe that he's done nothing wrong,
00:25:08.260 because I imagine for people very devoted to him, this is very unfortunate for them to see.
00:25:13.220 But all he's really done is do what I think Gerald Butts also did,
00:25:16.460 which was come forward and kind of muddy the waters a bit, dirty it all up.
00:25:20.140 And even though Jody Wilson-Raybould brought a lot of documentary evidence and cited text messages
00:25:25.060 and copious notes that she had taken after her meetings, Jerry Butts and Justin Trudeau really offered none of that.
00:25:30.980 And it's this sort of vague generalities, ambiguities.
00:25:34.080 But I think the oddest part of it, or perhaps the worst part of it all, is Trudeau made it seem like,
00:25:38.060 OK, the prime minister is coming down and he will have the final say.
00:25:41.580 I've had the final say there.
00:25:43.660 We can all go home now.
00:25:44.580 We'll go, hold on a second.
00:25:45.600 This maybe works as a public policy dispute if there's caucus members and cabinet ministers disagreeing.
00:25:51.260 And he comes in and says, no, this is final.
00:25:52.720 Well, but Ezra, this is an issue where obstruction of justice may have occurred.
00:25:57.020 And the prime minister is just one of many equal parties in this.
00:26:00.360 It is not up to him to have the final say.
00:26:03.280 It is up to the public prosecution service, the RCMP probe, the public inquiry, if there ever is one.
00:26:08.540 Of course, he wants to block it.
00:26:09.860 So absolutely not.
00:26:11.620 I mean, the question now is next steps for sure.
00:26:14.460 Yeah.
00:26:14.660 You know, he has this move and it's very effective.
00:26:18.060 You don't see it often.
00:26:19.300 I think he's perfected it.
00:26:20.240 Maybe he invented it, which is when he is in a scandal or a dispute, he comes in as if he's a pundit commenting on other things.
00:26:30.620 So I will now analyze for you what went on over there and I will be the judge of what happened.
00:26:37.500 And yeah, we could have done this better and that better, but I'm giving you the final word.
00:26:41.220 So it's like he's commenting as a third party or at arm's length when he was the center of it.
00:26:47.600 He did that here again.
00:26:49.500 These colleagues were working collegially.
00:26:52.140 We could have done this differently, but I conclude that our systems are like he he kept saying, I have concluded that our institutions are strong.
00:27:00.680 Well, he's the one who was the the controlling mind of the people who might have corrupted it.
00:27:08.100 It's not for him to be a pundit about him.
00:27:12.280 And my favorite part of it is when he says, I think there are lessons for all of us to take away from this.
00:27:17.160 You go, what do you mean all of us?
00:27:18.260 Don't wrote me into this.
00:27:19.260 This has nothing to do with me.
00:27:20.380 This has to do with very few of you on this.
00:27:22.940 And I think the main person who has the lessons are you yourself, Mr. Prime Minister.
00:27:27.100 So I think observers of the supernatural call what happened an out of body experience.
00:27:31.500 And you're right.
00:27:32.420 He does that a lot, although there are there are psychologists and experts like like Theodore Dalrymple has a book called The Knife Went In.
00:27:39.580 And it refers to a person who had who had stabbed someone.
00:27:42.520 And when they're talking about what happened, he said the knife went in.
00:27:45.700 It's like, well, the knife didn't go in.
00:27:46.620 You push the knife into the person.
00:27:48.240 But it is this sort of psychological play that people do to distance themselves from their own crimes.
00:27:53.180 That's a great analogy.
00:27:54.300 It's exactly what's going on here.
00:27:56.020 Now, I watched yesterday when Gerald Butts gave his testimony, and I think it was sort of a fog machine, like you say, muddying the waters.
00:28:04.040 But one thing was very clear to me is how the liberal MPs closed ranks to stop certain things from happening, to stop Butts from swearing in under oath, to stop a request to have all the text messages and SMS messages and emails on this matter being released.
00:28:24.000 Time and again, the liberal MPs blocked the disclosure of information that wasn't selected by the PMO.
00:28:32.600 In fact, Gerald Butts quoted from tweets, sorry, not tweets, quoted from text messages to him from Jody Wilson-Raybould that were handed to his lawyers by the PMO.
00:28:43.300 So we don't know what the other side of the story was.
00:28:46.760 We've had a very one-sided disclosure of information.
00:28:50.300 To me, that says it all.
00:28:51.860 If you're stopping the release of information, it's because you're afraid of the release of information.
00:28:57.920 That seems to be the simplest explanation.
00:29:01.500 Yeah, for sure.
00:29:02.060 The swearing under the oath thing, that's a bit of a red herring because they don't usually do that.
00:29:05.280 So I don't really care about that one way or the other.
00:29:07.500 But yes, the evidence is the main issue there.
00:29:10.940 Because as some observers have pointed out, it is against the law for a former employee of the prime minister's office or any other cabinet office to have all of these documentary evidence.
00:29:21.900 When you leave, you can just take the little drinking bird on your desk that goes up and down and the picture of your kids, and that's it.
00:29:28.640 You're not allowed to take your emails and your notes and everything.
00:29:31.620 So Jerry Butts had to leave those behind. 1.00
00:29:33.620 And at one point, someone asked him, how do you even have all of this?
00:29:36.440 You shouldn't be able to cite it.
00:29:37.660 Jody Wilson-Raybould could cite it because she's still in office, and then she was released from that confidentiality.
00:29:42.480 But how could Jerry Butts cite it?
00:29:43.620 And he kind of stammered and said, well, I don't know.
00:29:45.320 My legal counsel got it, meaning the PMO would have released it to his lawyers.
00:29:48.960 What is very interesting in all of this is when Marie Heinen wanted to ask for similar documents for the defense of Mark Norman,
00:29:55.320 she was trying to subpoena Jerry Butts and others in the prime minister's office to get this very evidence,
00:30:00.320 to get these sorts of items that Jerry Butts had already gotten from the PMO.
00:30:04.920 So you can really tell it's a case of picking and choosing here.
00:30:08.040 I mean, they're releasing this to some people, to Butts, not to Mark Norman.
00:30:11.200 Yeah. You know, we've seen in the United States Hillary Clinton using a private email to avoid the kind of archiving of documents 0.95
00:30:21.400 that normally happens with the high government official.
00:30:24.520 There were also other issues, security issues.
00:30:27.540 Would she be hacked? Could foreign governments see her homemade emails?
00:30:31.060 But I think it was mainly to hide it.
00:30:33.180 I have a concern, Anthony, that not only have we not released the official emails,
00:30:39.520 but it would not surprise me at all if there were private Gmail accounts or even other communications apps that were used.
00:30:47.800 And the only reason I say that is not just out of paranoia, but something else happened yesterday.
00:30:52.620 Anyway, Lisa Raitt, the conservative critic, was asking questions of the clerk of the Privy Council,
00:30:59.800 who's supposed to be a very senior, nonpartisan person,
00:31:02.860 who admitted he took a phone call directly from the chairman of SNC-Lavalin,
00:31:08.700 who, by the way, is a former clerk of the Privy Council himself.
00:31:11.620 It's such a cozy world.
00:31:13.600 So SNC-Lavalin made a direct phone call to the head of the Privy Council under Trudeau,
00:31:19.320 who did not, and it was not recorded in the lobbyist registry.
00:31:23.800 What does this mean in plain language?
00:31:25.860 That was a secret communication that we only learned about yesterday.
00:31:31.600 I don't think we learned about that before, and it certainly wasn't in the lobbyist registry.
00:31:35.220 I think there's a lot of things being hidden, just like in the Mark Norman case you referred to.
00:31:41.660 Yeah, I mean, I don't know about the G-mails.
00:31:43.960 I mean, I think it's a valid question to ask.
00:31:45.780 We have no reason to know sort of one way or the other right now.
00:31:49.220 But it's certainly fair to sort of go down that road of inquiry.
00:31:53.180 But I think you nailed it when you said cozy relationship.
00:31:56.300 Kevin Lynch, who is the former clerk, now the current clerk,
00:31:59.020 and they're all kind of calling each other up.
00:32:00.640 I mean, that's the issue here, and I think that's what's frustrating Canadians, 1.00
00:32:04.220 because the original sin in all of this is this DPA law.
00:32:06.960 And I'm kind of getting tired, as are of all these arguments,
00:32:09.580 where people say, well, what does the law say?
00:32:11.160 What does it not say?
00:32:12.540 I don't know.
00:32:12.980 I doubt the authenticity of the entire law,
00:32:14.960 because it was rammed in through the omnibus bill and so forth.
00:32:17.840 So we've got to ask questions about the whole affair here.
00:32:21.200 Yeah.
00:32:21.420 I want to show you a small extract from the law,
00:32:24.980 because the law is actually pretty black and white.
00:32:28.540 And there's a whole section of it.
00:32:29.940 We showed this yesterday.
00:32:31.060 I actually learned this from Ed Prucci, who's an excellent lawyer.
00:32:35.500 This is from the Criminal Code.
00:32:37.480 It's a section in the Deferred Prosecution Provisions
00:32:40.200 called Factors Not to Consider.
00:32:43.820 So it's pretty incredible.
00:32:44.860 And I'm just going to read this to you, Anthony.
00:32:48.340 Despite paragraph 2-1, if the organization, that would be SNC-Lavalin,
00:32:54.340 is alleged to have committed an offense under Section 3 or 4
00:32:57.360 of the Corruption of Foreign Public Officials Act,
00:33:00.400 The prosecutor must not, must not, N-O-T not, consider the national economic interest, 0.90
00:33:10.340 the potential effect on relations with the state other than Canada,
00:33:13.460 or the identity of the organization or individual involved.
00:33:16.620 It must not consider the national economic interest.
00:33:20.380 You cannot consider that.
00:33:21.980 That's what the law says.
00:33:23.040 Because I think that was the number one excuse offered up by Trudeau today
00:33:27.520 and Butts yesterday is, what about the jobs?
00:33:29.660 There's no evidence that jobs would be lost if the prosecution happened.
00:33:32.620 But even if it was, the law says you can't consider it.
00:33:36.000 Yeah, and it was Elizabeth May who did the great job grilling Jerry Butts of saying, 1.00
00:33:39.920 where did you even get this idea that 9,000 jobs was at risk?
00:33:42.520 Can you cite anything that you were told?
00:33:44.260 And he just kind of went, oh, I don't know,
00:33:46.080 like someone from Bill Marnot's department kind of said it.
00:33:48.440 He couldn't answer with specificity.
00:33:50.460 I mean, I think that nails it, that this is really just about spin.
00:33:54.620 And the liberals know that, you know, the rule since, you know, 0.99
00:33:57.220 James Carville said it's the economy, stupid, is that people care about the economy. 0.98
00:34:00.600 So, OK, if we just say we were doing this to save jobs and the robustness of the economy 0.98
00:34:04.640 and we were largely voted in on this idea about, you know,
00:34:07.780 supporting the economy for the middle class,
00:34:09.460 I think people will shrug it off based on that.
00:34:11.340 I think it's heavy on the spin factor.
00:34:13.540 Yeah.
00:34:14.000 You know, there's one more thing I want to mention about the not economic factor rule.
00:34:18.280 I was thinking, well, why would that be in there?
00:34:19.900 Well, what do you think of this, Anthony?
00:34:21.840 If there was a rule that you could say, well, you can't sue us because there would be job losses,
00:34:27.400 you can't sue us for economic reasons, that would give, that would favor big, rich companies
00:34:33.840 breaking the law and punish small, poor people from breaking the law.
00:34:38.840 It would weirdly say the richer you are, the more powerful you are,
00:34:43.440 the more likely you are to get off the hook.
00:34:45.460 You see what I mean?
00:34:46.140 If you're a big Enron, if you're a big Arthur Anderson, if you're a big, rich, corrupt company,
00:34:51.720 you could always say, yeah, sure, we're corrupt.
00:34:54.240 But, you know, you wouldn't want to stop our money making in our jobs.
00:34:57.740 So it would be perverse if you said, well, sure, they're crooked.
00:35:01.900 But, you know, they make so much money.
00:35:03.960 We can't stop that crookedness.
00:35:06.080 I think that's why that law is there.
00:35:07.700 And yeah, that's a little comment on my part.
00:35:09.700 But I got one more question for you, Anthony, and thank you for your time today.
00:35:13.940 Well, if I can just say to what you were saying there, though, Ezra,
00:35:16.280 I was recently revisiting Mitt Romney's 2008 op-ed in The New York Times,
00:35:20.440 where he discussed the merits of managed bankruptcy for the Detroit automakers.
00:35:24.900 And one of the original arguments about it, and he brought it again when he was running for president,
00:35:29.040 was he was saying, look, what you do with bankruptcy is you get the toxic assets out of it,
00:35:33.880 but nobody else gets harmed.
00:35:35.040 You get all the bad things out of the operation, and then you can restructure under the rules of bankruptcy.
00:35:40.280 And I think the merits to having that conversation here in Canada with a multitude of companies is very valid to have right now.
00:35:47.400 That's exactly what bankruptcy is.
00:35:49.800 Protect the valuable stuff.
00:35:51.740 Get rid of the bad stuff, which might be the board of directors, might be the executives.
00:35:56.940 You're exactly right.
00:35:57.820 I mean, a good engineer working for SNC-Lavalin and a good contract to do legit engineering, those things won't go away.
00:36:06.780 In a bankruptcy, what might go away is all the corrupt people.
00:36:09.940 That's a great point.
00:36:10.920 I got one last question for you, and I am depressed on this matter because I believe that they are over the worst of it.
00:36:19.220 By they, I mean Trudeau and Butz.
00:36:20.840 I believe that they've taken a licking, they've lost about 10 points in the polls, or they once had a lead, now they are a trail.
00:36:29.460 But I think that they've weathered the worst of it.
00:36:32.240 I think Trudeau and Butz have given enough talking points for the sympathetic media to come back to their aid.
00:36:39.240 It's still half a year out to the election campaign.
00:36:42.260 And I believe, and you tell me what you think of this, it's just a speculation, I believe that unless the RCMP are to launch an investigation, which I think would devastate them, I think they're through.
00:36:55.320 I think they're free and clear.
00:36:56.740 I think this will be forgotten, the media will help, and I think Trudeau's going to win the next election if this is all there is.
00:37:01.600 What do you think?
00:37:02.360 Well, I agree and I disagree.
00:37:03.660 I think you're right that the issue is whether or not the RCMP bring in a probe and investigation and issue charges.
00:37:09.240 Because the Ethics Commissioner, the Justice Committee, Trudeau keeps saying, have faith in them, value them, and so forth.
00:37:14.640 There's a reason he's saying that, because he largely controls the levers.
00:37:18.160 The Ethics Commissioner himself has said that he basically has no teeth, he'll just give Trudeau a $300 fine, so that's meaningless.
00:37:24.820 And the Justice Committee, the chair was handpicked by Trudeau, and the PMO we know has a say in the final reports.
00:37:30.120 And it's just a final report.
00:37:31.340 All it's going to say, Ezra, is the PMO should try better next time and separate the AG and the Justice Minister into two different roles.
00:37:38.260 Who cares?
00:37:39.740 I'm not sure.
00:37:41.140 I mean, I do think a lot of people feel like they've been taken for dupes by this guy.
00:37:47.800 Now, you and I have been saying this for several years now, but I think a lot of people are just coming around to that perspective now.
00:37:53.160 Even people who do share his sort of progressive values are feeling like the wool's been pulled over their eyes.
00:37:58.640 They're very frustrated.
00:37:59.880 I'm not so sure that there's an eagerness to get back to all of this.
00:38:03.320 You know, it was interesting, a liberal source telling a post-media colleague of mine that he said, look, we all want to be re-elected, us liberal MPs.
00:38:11.800 That's the thing, because, you know, they want to keep their jobs.
00:38:13.840 They'd rather them be in government than not.
00:38:15.300 But we want to be re-elected.
00:38:16.600 We're not saying we want to be re-elected under this guy.
00:38:19.400 So if there was, like, a Paul Martin machine waiting in the wings, he'd be toast.
00:38:24.160 He'd be shuffled out any time now.
00:38:25.900 There is not.
00:38:26.960 And I think when he banished the senators from the caucus five years ago, when they pushed the old guard out, I think it was a lot about that, a lot of insecurity about not wanting any of that waiting in the wings.
00:38:37.040 So if somebody wants to do some machinations in the months ahead, I think they could.
00:38:42.220 I don't know if people are going to drop this.
00:38:43.980 What I am seeing is there's going to be a coalescing narrative behind the sort of progressive and far-left people on social media saying whatever Trudeau did, even if he did break the law, it's better than that evil Andrew Scheer coming in and taking power.
00:38:57.060 So I think they're going to rally behind that argument.
00:38:59.660 They almost know Trudeau's at risk, and they're going to shift it from, OK, but what if Trudeau does lose office?
00:39:05.640 What about all the evils that could befall that?
00:39:07.560 So I think that's where the conversation will head.
00:39:09.380 Yeah, a lot of people have remarked that there are so few genuinely strong cabinet ministers.
00:39:14.980 I mean, so many of them are tokens or quotas, and that's not my view.
00:39:18.700 That's Trudeau.
00:39:19.460 That's how he describes them.
00:39:21.720 I mean, you're not going to have a leadership challenge from Bartish Chagher or Miriam Monsa for Christy Duncan or, you know, Seamus O'Regan.
00:39:29.380 Those are not powerhouses chomping at the bit.
00:39:32.180 There's really no other serious force.
00:39:35.560 Mark Garneau, I don't think he has an army.
00:39:38.300 I think that that is the Trudeau party.
00:39:40.940 He banished anyone else.
00:39:42.360 It'll be very interesting.
00:39:43.360 Anthony, I look forward to reading your articles in the weeks to come.
00:39:46.360 And starting with today's, let me just remind our people it's called This Is All About Credibility.
00:39:51.660 And Wilson-Raybould comes out on top.
00:39:53.720 You can read Anthony in The Toronto Sun.
00:39:55.560 Thanks for being with us today.
00:39:57.300 Thanks, Ezra.
00:39:57.800 Have a good one.
00:39:58.240 All right.
00:39:58.600 There you have it.
00:39:59.140 Stay with us.
00:39:59.940 More ahead on The Rebel.
00:40:08.300 Hey, welcome back to my monologue yesterday about Gerald Butts' testimony, sanctimony, and the SNC-Lavalin scandal.
00:40:18.560 Deborah writes, not testifying on her oath says it all. 0.96
00:40:21.700 Butts is a liar.
00:40:22.800 They let Jody testify first, knowing full well that they would counter anything she said and then gag her by not letting her return. 0.88
00:40:28.880 Yeah, and the selective disclosure of emails is just unbelievable, at least a rate the conservative critic picked up on that.
00:40:37.380 But so what?
00:40:37.940 That's a technical detail that 99% of Canadians wouldn't even know about.
00:40:43.520 Liza writes, too much time on Butts and Wernick?
00:40:47.260 No, sir, I can't get enough of it.
00:40:49.000 If these guys skip through this unscathed, Canada's reputation will never be repaired.
00:40:53.360 Well, Canada's reputation will never be repaired, but I'm not even worried about reputation.
00:40:56.400 That implies I'm worried what other people think as opposed to what the actual facts are.
00:41:00.880 I am worried about the rule of law itself being destroyed.
00:41:03.720 That's what's happening in real time here.
00:41:05.300 It's amazing to me that Jody Wilson-Raybould stood against that hurricane.
00:41:10.000 That doesn't happen too many times.
00:41:12.460 And if she gets blown over, I think we're on a dissent.
00:41:17.520 Robert writes, worthy of note, CTV News has started using the word, the term word salad with respect to Junior's remarks.
00:41:25.260 I believe Sheila Gunn-Reed has struck again.
00:41:27.780 Yeah, word salad.
00:41:29.040 It's such a funny way of saying it.
00:41:30.900 And the CBC in the personage of Neil MacDonald had some very funny things to say about Trudeau.
00:41:37.560 But I say again, I think he's going to blow over.
00:41:40.260 He's going to tough it out.
00:41:42.080 And six months from now, will people still be thinking about this?
00:41:44.680 I don't know.
00:41:46.400 On my interview with Pardes Saleh on Ilhan Omar's anti-Semitism, Paul writes,
00:41:49.980 Like in the UK with the Labour Party, the Democrats have become a racist party.
00:41:56.120 Yeah, it's certainly the battle that's going on in Canada.
00:41:59.020 I think the same battle is going on.
00:42:00.920 Justin Trudeau is now embracing the likes of Ikra Khalid, of M103, of Omar Al-Gabra, and even Ahmed Hassan.
00:42:10.520 And it's no longer the party that it used to be, because Justin Trudeau can do the math.
00:42:16.800 There's 350,000 Jews in Canada, and enough of them just out of inertia still vote liberal.
00:42:22.380 He can bank on that, but he doesn't even have to.
00:42:24.780 There's four times as many Muslims, and they're not all citizens yet, but they will be soon enough. 1.00
00:42:29.540 He can do the math.
00:42:31.360 Folks, that's our show for today.
00:42:32.680 Until tomorrow, on behalf of all of us here at Rebel World Headquarters, to you at home, good night.
00:42:36.660 And keep fighting for freedom.