Red Ice TV - The Murder of Little Mary Phagan with Mary Phagan-Kean

00:00:00.000 Welcome, ladies and gentlemen, Mary Fagan Keene is the great niece and namesake of Mary

00:00:23.460 Fagan, the 13-year-old girl who was murdered by Leo Frank in 1913.

00:00:28.080 The case was the catalyst for the creation of the ADL.

00:00:31.920 Now, Mary released an expanded 2025 edition of her book, The Murder of Little Mary Fagan, which originally was put out in 1987 with added chapters, documents, footnotes and commentary.

00:00:45.080 Now, this book is the great work of her lifetime, a personal journey, a tale of the shocking sex murder and abuse of her great aunt.

00:00:54.260 And it's the true story the ADL doesn't want to talk about.

00:00:58.080 Her book is the product of decades of research into trial records, newspapers, appeals, and family materials to present the Fagan family's perspective against the ADL's portrayal of Leo Frank as the innocent victim of anti-Semitism, not a pedophile murderer.

00:01:14.960 So welcome, Big Mary.

00:01:17.200 Thank you very much.

00:01:18.220 I'm pleased to be here.

00:01:19.800 Yes, I'm so happy to have you here.

00:01:21.120 This is going to be very good and interesting timing on Halloween as we're finally having this discussion.

00:01:27.480 Yes, yes, it is. It is a horror story. Now, you were raised not knowing your connection to

00:01:33.300 little Mary Fagan, and your family was basically silent about it. So let's talk about your personal

00:01:38.600 discovery of the murder and how you first heard about it. All right. My father was in the military,

00:01:44.240 so I'm a military brat, Air Force. Most of my growing up years were in Japan and Hawaii.

00:01:52.760 So when we came back to the mainland in the 60s, in 1967, I was 13 years old,

00:01:58.360 which I'm sure when you hear that number, you're going to think,

00:02:01.080 hmm, that was the age that little Mary Fagan was murdered.

00:02:04.700 So at 13, Charleston Air Force Base, I go to R.B. Stahl High School,

00:02:09.100 and my science teacher, Mr. Henry, was letting us through the line back in my day.

00:02:14.100 I'm 72 now, so back in my day, we had to stand up, and he had to go through the line,

00:02:18.240 and he never really looked at you.

00:02:19.300 He just marked at your name.

00:02:20.940 So I'm going through the line like everybody else, and I go, Mary Fagan.

00:02:26.220 And all of a sudden, his facial expression changes.

00:02:29.760 Everything is about his posture, and then he begins to look at me, and I'm thinking,

00:02:33.960 oh, my gosh, what have I done wrong?

00:02:37.040 I was nervous, and he took his hand, and with the pencil and pen in his hand,

00:02:41.740 he looked at the paper with my name, and he pointed to my name, and he said,

00:02:45.760 You know, back in the 1920s, there was a little girl with your name that was murdered in Atlanta.

00:02:53.740 Are you by chance related to her?

00:02:56.040 I told them I didn't know.

00:02:58.060 And it was a very, very heartbreaking thing for me to hear that somebody was murdered with my name.

00:03:03.760 And then it became even more strenuous for me when the boys told me that I was dead and I was reincarnated.

00:03:11.180 And you've got to remember, I'm 13 years old.

00:03:13.280 I don't understand all that stuff.

00:03:14.760 So I was very devastated that I was dead and, you know, reincarnated.

00:03:19.600 And I knew what reincarnated mean, but, you know, it just floored me that they just wouldn't let it go.

00:03:24.820 You know, it was always this constant to the end of school day.

00:03:27.220 Well, I walked home.

00:03:28.640 We were very secure on our Air Force base where we had military personnel always checking on us and making sure we get home safe.

00:03:34.920 So I got home and I was crying.

00:03:36.620 And just so happened that my daddy was home because he flew a lot.

00:03:40.740 He would be gone for six and eight weeks at a time.

00:03:43.280 And, you know, when I think about all this stuff, it's just like meant to be.

00:03:47.600 And you hate to say that, but there's a higher being that is looking out for you sometimes.

00:03:52.720 So I get in and I start crying.

00:03:55.580 And he said, what's wrong?

00:03:57.080 What's wrong?

00:03:57.600 What happened at school?

00:03:58.760 And I said, Mr. Henry, my science teacher, told me there was a little girl with my name that was murdered in the 1920s in Atlanta and asked me if I was related.

00:04:09.140 And I told him I didn't know.

00:04:10.440 Now you're talking about a military man. Strong, courageous, brave. Okay, here I go. I'm sorry. I always break down. Sorry. And he looks at me and he starts crying. I'm not understanding why he's crying.

00:04:31.440 And he said, let's go get some milk and sit down at the table, and I'll tell you what's going on.

00:04:37.360 I said, yes, sir.

00:04:39.260 So we go to the table, and he tells me that, yes, I am related to little Mary Fagan.

00:04:45.580 She was his aunt and my great-aunt.

00:04:49.300 She was my grandfather's baby sister.

00:04:52.600 She was raped and murdered in 1913 by Leo Frank, and she was found murdered in the pencil factory, and she was 13 years old.

00:05:00.680 Leo Frank was convicted of the crime, and eventually, unfortunately, he was lynched by a vigilance committee in 1915.

00:05:08.760 But you go back to school tomorrow, and you tell Mr. Henry that, yes, you are definitely related.

00:05:14.640 You're the great niece and namesake of her.

00:05:17.580 And I said, okay, well, I'm 13.

00:05:20.240 You know, I'm kind of dramatic with my hands.

00:05:22.020 I've also got Italian blood in me. 1.00

00:05:23.420 It goes in one ear and out the other.

00:05:25.360 I know I'm never, ever going to be asked that question again.

00:05:30.080 So I go on to my life. We decide that dad decides that we have to move to Atlanta because grandfather's getting sick and they want us to know our grandparents because since we were away for so many years, we didn't have opportunity to know our grandparents as well as we knew our grandmother, Frances, because she lived with us when we were in Hawaii and she stayed with us for a while in Charleston, South Carolina for five years.

00:05:53.240 we go back and my first day of high school i'm age 15 at the time shamrock high school i had six

00:06:01.780 classes every one of my teachers asked me that question i know that's what i said i'm hmm no

00:06:12.660 i'm 15 so i'm a little older a little bit more mature daddy and i never really had talked about

00:06:17.780 it i'd be curious to know what those teachers thought did they think leo was guilty you know

00:06:22.240 They never said, they just asked me the question, and I said, yes, I am related.

00:06:27.320 I'm the great niece and namesake, and that's all I said.

00:06:30.160 But my inquisitive mind was such that, what didn't my daddy tell me?

00:06:36.040 Why didn't all these teachers know about this?

00:06:39.240 What is going on here?

00:06:41.600 So that's my introduction.

00:06:43.720 So 15, 16, and 17, I go back with daddy to Georgia State University, and we start researching the case.

00:06:50.600 You've got to remember, we didn't have any digital stuff.

00:06:52.860 We didn't have the internet.

00:06:53.840 We didn't have to do anything.

00:06:54.820 You had to go in person to the library and do things.

00:06:57.620 He gave me a book, though, called A Little Girl is Dead by Harry Golden that was written in 1965.

00:07:02.720 And he said, this is one of the books that has been written about the case.

00:07:05.520 So I read it.

00:07:06.700 And then when I went to the archives at Georgia State and to the archive place in Atlanta, downtown Atlanta, I noticed something.

00:07:16.520 And I would come back and I would say, you know what, Daddy?

00:07:21.740 Harry Golden's book doesn't match what these newspaper articles say or what these other things say, the brief of evidence.

00:07:28.200 It's not matching here.

00:07:29.420 It's different.

00:07:30.340 He goes, right.

00:07:32.920 That's what I want from you.

00:07:34.740 I want you to learn your history, not just your oral history from the entire family,

00:07:41.940 but you need to learn the records and evidence of the history that you have i said yes sir

00:07:48.060 so i said harry golden's book said that there was hang the jew or will hang you well he never told

00:07:53.560 me leo frank was jewish yes now let me give you he never told me that i mean and that's that's

00:08:00.060 important which we're going to talk about but i just want to give a quick summary of the story i

00:08:03.560 know you did very quick but so on april 26 for people don't know in 20 1913 mary fagan she went

00:08:10.060 to atlanta's national pencil company to collect her one dollar 20 cent pay and she was found raped

00:08:16.520 and murdered her body was found the next morning in the basement by a black night watchman named

00:08:21.360 newt lee which we'll talk about now leo frank was the jewish sweatshop boss who was the last person

00:08:27.940 known to have seen her alive he was arrested and convicted in this big sensational trial lots of

00:08:33.420 headlines as she has found now the key prosecution witness was a black janitor jim conley who

00:08:39.800 admitted writing the notes and claimed frank confessed and ordered him to help dispose of the

00:08:44.460 body now the defense argued conley was the real killer this black janitor now appeals failed and

00:08:51.000 then in 1915 governor john slatton commuted frank's death sentence to life and then a mob of you know

00:08:59.180 prominent good white guys from marietta then kidnapped frank from prison and lynched him

00:09:04.040 and of course this case you know fueled the resurgence of the kkk which we always hear about

00:09:08.640 contributed to the founding of the ADL, which is very important, we'll get into. And in 1986,

00:09:14.320 Frank received a limited posthumous pardon that did not address guilt or innocence. Okay, so that's

00:09:21.600 the whole thing in a nutshell we're going to talk about. But what does your family think about it

00:09:26.900 today, including your book, the whole story, now that you guys have pulled together even more

00:09:31.780 evidence that's available? They are very proud of the fact that we have been able to produce this

00:09:38.100 book. Last year, it came out in 2025, and it explains all the hoaxes that have been, is what

00:09:45.480 I call them. But it's also called, another word that we use today is false narrative that has

00:09:51.260 been put out by American Jewish revisionists over the last 113 years. I will tell you that most of 0.66

00:09:58.200 the historians that they talk about are the same religious faith as Leo Frank, and they therefore

00:10:04.000 already have an immediate bias and you can tell right off the bat that that's the truth and you

00:10:10.600 know what they're doing today and what made me angry was that they started smearing little mary

00:10:15.400 fagin she was called little mary fagin because when they found her body in the basement the

00:10:20.180 detectives starnes found and found her body or looked at her body and pulled the sheet because 0.99

00:10:26.200 they weren't sure she was white or black because she had so much soot from where she was being

00:10:30.660 dragged from the elevator she was looking dark yeah it was awful it was awful experience for

00:10:35.340 me to go through I'm telling you it was having to read that I mean I cried for days after that

00:10:39.480 and um when they pulled her over he went oh my god it's a little girl and from that moment on

00:10:48.200 she became little Mary Fagan she was only 4'10 which is I'm I'm 4'10 and 3 quarters um so and

00:10:55.820 she weighed 107 pounds, which is why I weigh 108. So, we're very similar in a lot of respects with

00:11:02.420 that. So, she was a little girl, and she was only 13 years old. She would have been 14 on June 1st.

00:11:09.360 I remember seeing a 1988 mini-series with Peter Gallagher as Leo Frank, and the series strongly

00:11:20.180 lean towards defending leo yeah that's all i ever hear about poor leo he was the victim of

00:11:25.680 anti-semitism by these you know kkk racists who ended up defending a black man against him

00:11:31.360 and then i look and i was like oh it was written by george stevens jr who was also an associate

00:11:35.900 producer and director of location scenes on his dad's film the diary of anne frank now they weren't

00:11:41.940 of the tribe but they did a lot of work with the tribe the diary of anne frank was actually the

00:11:46.860 first american film centered on the holocaust i thought that was interesting but let's talk about

00:11:52.120 what you discovered about leo frank what is the truth about this guy the truth is is that he is

00:12:00.400 guilty of vicious rape and murder of my great aunt little mary fagan that is

00:12:08.440 be through evidence through my oral history i was able because i got mad that they were

00:12:14.640 smearing little mary fagin in the books they were calling her a tease a flirtatious 0.97

00:12:18.800 steve only in 2003 called her a la vicious woman okay so now she's not the victim anymore she

00:12:28.580 became the person that was not the victim leo frank is the victim yes well like i said i was

00:12:35.620 earlier told you i got mad and i decided you know i wrote the first book in 1987 and that's when

00:12:40.700 the miniseries came out ironically that you mentioned oh that's right yeah that's right

00:12:45.020 okay and that came out a lot of because of alonzo man who came out in 1982

00:12:49.880 and alonzo man with the national tennessean had you know what do you want to call them um tentative

00:12:58.980 movies tentative books tentative uh whatever they do in the movies and whatever to to do this to do

00:13:06.440 this case if Leo Frank was exonerated in 1983, which he was not exonerated based on Alonzo Mann's

00:13:15.200 testimony. He was not, not exonerated. So they had all these things going, and it just so happened

00:13:21.600 my book came out. I had a small publisher, Joan Dunphy, who's passed away, and she believed in

00:13:26.940 our story, and she believed that the truth needed to be known. Of course, we wrote NBC. They ignored

00:13:32.080 made they didn't want nothing to do with the faken family i will tell you now everything

00:13:35.420 anything they do now with the adl and everything way to hear what they've done since the last 40

00:13:41.320 years yeah i i mean yeah i want to get into this because this is so important to the adl this

00:13:48.420 story defending this pedophile murderer is like at the crux of the adl and i want to get to that

00:13:54.280 but what you know white southerners white you want to mention many i just want to say white 0.84

00:13:59.360 southerners at the time now leo frank he was this northern college educated you know jewish factory

00:14:04.900 superintendent um in the eyes of many of the the white southerners he represented this exploitative 0.65

00:14:10.700 kind of northern capitalist you know jewish capitalist that was preying on poor white

00:14:17.080 southern girls now it was uncle moses frank who was he was also part owner of this national

00:14:23.020 pencil company that leo worked for uh in the family business right and he leo frank was also

00:14:28.800 president of the atlanta chapter of the benai breath and after his conviction this was in 1913

00:14:34.460 the atlanta chapter they unanimously re-elected this guy as president like it didn't matter

00:14:40.200 these charges they just re-elected him anyway they didn't seem to mind um i also saw that there

00:14:46.200 were some contemporaries in georgia at the time that claimed that jewish money was being used to

00:14:50.940 free him because there was a lot of big orgs and and prominent you know people that were fundraising

00:14:57.000 and doing political pressure to commute his death sentence.

00:15:01.140 Yeah, what more can you tell us?

00:15:02.920 Yeah, everything you said is correct.

00:15:05.040 I'm going to go back to the miniseries

00:15:06.720 because I wanted you to know that when they did that,

00:15:09.640 everything about that miniseries is false.

00:15:14.400 The only truth in it are the names of the people,

00:15:18.300 Mary was murdered, and Leo Frank was lynched.

00:15:22.620 None of that miniseries is true at all.

00:15:25.080 I'm going to read you a, there was two people back in that time that were alive that were considered to be the experts in the field for the newspapers, Marietta Daily Journal, Bill Journey, and Celestine Sibling.

00:15:39.480 And like I said, that was my first book, but I'm going to let you, I'm going to read with you what he said, Bill Kenney said.

00:15:47.620 He said, oh, that was Celestine Sibling that said that one.

00:15:51.020 Okay, so here's what Bill said.

00:15:53.880 He said, Mary Fagan document is more fiction than fact.

00:15:58.740 This documedia is an idea whose time has never come.

00:16:02.700 It should quickly become a thing of the past.

00:16:05.780 Some well-known names were morally sullied by the miniseries.

00:16:09.320 NBC's nationally televised docudrama on the murder of Little Mary Fagan was a great work of fiction

00:16:14.400 with an incredible string of misstatements and distortions of fact that characterized the first South bashing episode.

00:16:21.100 And that was January 31st, 1998.

00:16:23.880 Unfortunately, the miniseries falsely puts the Fagan family in a bad light.

00:16:28.880 It's deplorable that a great TV network has so little regard for factual presentation 0.71

00:16:32.880 or historical accuracy, it's painful to have to again to rehash the historical facts."

00:16:38.880 That's what he said, and he was considered the expert.

00:16:40.880 He was the only person alive at that time that had the names of all the vigilance committee

00:16:46.880 that lynched Leo Frank in 1915.

00:16:49.880 now Celestine Sidling says

00:16:51.820 the murder of little Mary Fagan

00:16:53.560 oh she said oh I'm sorry I stayed up

00:16:55.700 two nights to watch television's

00:16:57.860 miniseries the murder of Mary Fagan

00:16:59.460 what a terrible thing to you

00:17:01.780 to do using the skills of fine actors

00:17:03.720 and technical crews for one of those based

00:17:05.640 on productions

00:17:06.560 that based on true story label won't wash

00:17:09.820 using the real names of people and places

00:17:11.580 and then fictionalizing their character and actions

00:17:13.720 left this viewer reeling with confusion

00:17:15.520 how much was true how much was expedient

00:17:18.060 concoction by script writers

00:17:19.520 I was glad that they finally worked in fiddling John Carson singing the death of Mary Fagan outside the trial.

00:17:25.060 But when the entire courtroom full of people got to their feet and started singing a hymn like the Mormon Tappanackal Choir in Salt Lake City, I burst into laughter.

00:17:35.460 So they both commented on my book and said that my book was very good and it was telling the truth.

00:17:39.960 And it was the first time that the people that I had facts and everything in there.

00:17:45.400 So that was interesting.

00:17:46.660 That's the miniseries.

00:17:47.640 and I felt like people need to know that

00:17:49.660 so what did they say about my book

00:17:51.760 Ms. Fagan, Bill Kenney

00:17:53.680 Ms. Fagan's book is a valuable

00:17:55.320 contribution to the literature on the

00:17:57.940 case not only because it furnishes

00:18:00.020 her to therefore generally unknown information

00:18:02.120 about the victim, the Fagan family

00:18:04.040 and their beliefs about Frank and Conley but also

00:18:06.020 because Ms. Fagan recites the facts

00:18:07.940 pertaining to the case. It is clear

00:18:10.120 from the narrative that the author unlike

00:18:11.880 so many other people who have accessed this

00:18:14.100 case has studied. Indeed the failing

00:18:16.020 of much that has been written on the Frank case is the author's reliance on inaccurate or

00:18:19.660 exaggerated summaries of the trial rather than the independent reviews of the

00:18:24.080 coroner's request and transcripts of the trial itself. As such, her book

00:18:28.160 besides containing a touching story of a family's grief contains historical fact

00:18:32.120 that created the emotions that still rage today. Celestine

00:18:35.960 Sibling mentioned my book. The Murder of Little Mary is the first book to be written by a member

00:18:40.080 of the slain child's family and a rather scholarly study of the case.

00:18:44.660 Mary Fagan is perhaps the most readable and certainly the most sore recapulation of the case.

00:18:48.880 Determined to learn all about the case that brought ever-fresh pain to her family,

00:18:52.600 the current Mary Fagan, a Marietta teacher of the blind,

00:18:55.300 spent 10 years collecting evidence on the case and interviewed surviving principals,

00:18:59.340 including Alonzo Mann, whose testimony resulted in a posthumous pardon for Frank

00:19:04.100 without addressing his guilt or innocence, from the Georgia Bardens of Paroles Boards in 1986.

00:19:09.400 Fagan herself strives for objectivity, ending her story with questions.

00:19:13.160 Will we ever know with complete certainty who killed Mary Fagan?

00:19:15.940 Has the answer gone to the grave with all the participants in the tragedy?

00:19:19.940 So that's the reason why I started again, because of that.

00:19:23.380 And it was a horrible experience to see what NBC did with that miniseries.

00:19:29.040 So, again, none of it was true.

00:19:31.120 It's fascinating that this is the story that they hone in on, though.

00:19:35.040 You know what I mean?

00:19:35.920 Like, this is your good guy here?

00:19:39.220 I mean, there was a Jewish publisher, Adolph Oaks, of the New York Times in this time.

00:19:45.020 Yeah, they were giving extensive coverage.

00:19:47.580 Yeah, you know about this.

00:19:48.560 And they were sympathetic to Frank.

00:19:50.500 Did it have something to do also with, it seemed like this family was more prominent.

00:19:54.160 His wife came, Lucille Frank, Selig Frank, came from a prominent family in Atlanta, right?

00:20:00.120 Founders of the temple, Atlanta's leading reform synagogue.

00:20:03.320 I mean, obviously, he was some kind of important person to the Jewish community, right?

00:20:09.000 I mean, why else are they defending him? I mean, because this guy also had a record of harassing numerous female factory employees who said he was sexually harassing them and his behavior was inappropriate. Right. Like this guy had that kind of track record.

00:20:23.080 yes he did and um out off ox is that you mentioned him i'll go ahead and tell you that part

00:20:29.520 so frank was convicted by uh well yeah frank was convicted and 1913 in august and the sentence was

00:20:37.900 death by hanging as soon as the conviction was stated his rabbi marks hightails it to new york

00:20:47.320 to Aldolf Ox, the New York Times.

00:20:50.980 One thing you need to know about Aldolf Ox,

00:20:52.900 he didn't give a darn about this trial.

00:20:56.360 Only printed like four or five articles about it,

00:20:59.520 but he didn't do daily coverage like the Atlanta papers did.

00:21:03.300 The Georgian, the Journal, and the Constitution,

00:21:05.500 and a Marietta paper as well.

00:21:08.160 So he went up to him, and he went there,

00:21:11.060 and he said, anti-Semitism.

00:21:12.900 Well, Aldolf Ox calls Lasker in Chicago the philanthropist, and he has all the money.

00:21:23.600 So they start a financial campaign for 113 years that continues today to exonerate Leo Frank for the murder of migrainiants.

00:21:34.600 So that's all you need to know about Aldolf Ox and Lasker.

00:21:39.060 That's what they did.

00:21:40.060 It was all that.

00:21:40.780 And that went on for on and on. 0.79

00:21:42.400 So what happened, if you don't mind, I don't mind telling you about how the Hang the Jew hoax came into part.

00:21:49.280 And part of it relates to these two guys.

00:21:51.560 Okay, so I want to kind of do that relationship here.

00:21:54.620 So Albert Ox hires a person by the name of C.P. Connelly.

00:21:59.780 And he asked him to write an article because he, in his book, let me go get his book real quick.

00:22:03.960 Oh, did I bring it up here?

00:22:05.200 A little book?

00:22:06.060 No, I did.

00:22:06.760 Sorry.

00:22:07.360 No worries.

00:22:08.620 Okay.

00:22:08.860 He's got the book, The Truth About the Frank Case, C.P. Connolly.

00:22:13.720 This is what he says in his book, okay?

00:22:19.740 Page 11.

00:22:20.940 See, I got it paperclip.

00:22:22.620 This is what he says. 0.66

00:22:24.420 Of course, he got the first thing of Mary Fagan.

00:22:26.720 She wasn't 14. 0.97

00:22:27.560 She was 13.

00:22:28.480 On the last day I was in Atlanta, I went to the office of one of Frank's lawyers to say goodbye.

00:22:33.500 The telephone rang. 1.00

00:22:34.520 If they don't hang that Jew, we'll hang you, came the message. 1.00

00:22:37.680 The lawyer tried to learn the name of his unknown minister, but without success. 0.99

00:22:42.240 After Frank had been convicted, and even before his trial, scores of such anonymous as messages came by letter and telephone to his lawyers.

00:22:49.000 Well, in December of 1914, he says that they're outside the courtroom yelling that.

00:22:56.800 Okay.

00:22:58.000 Big difference, isn't it?

00:22:59.820 Yes.

00:23:00.460 It was a telephone call.

00:23:01.520 there were no crowds out there hanging hanging off the corn off the buildings

00:23:06.640 blame saying those words so that the jury could hear them that is the biggest hoax there ever is

00:23:12.820 yeah and those hoaxes continue all the time and they continue today you know hey but i'm stopping

00:23:18.440 some of them and i'm so happy yes oh she's got this right you know i mean now let's also talk

00:23:23.560 about the irony in this because okay uh jim conley the black janitor was frank's frank's defense

00:23:30.100 accused him of the murder they're accusing this black guy and then there was new to lead the black

00:23:35.780 night watchman who they were also trying to implicate with the notes you know so jim connelly

00:23:41.940 uh the black janitor his final version of the story the one he testified was one leo frank

00:23:46.720 murdered mary fagan two he asked him to help move the body to the basement three that he

00:23:51.700 frank dictated the two notes found with the body which connelly wrote out those notes were written

00:23:56.640 to make it look like the black knight watchman newt lee had done it so the court story was a

00:24:02.180 jewish man uh killed her a black janitor helped move the body and frame another black man but

00:24:08.940 leo frank accused the black janitor oh my gosh this is so scrambled of committing the murder and

00:24:14.980 then lying to frame him now leo's lawyers introduced later affidavits including from

00:24:20.540 connelly's girlfriend claiming that connelly had privately confessed to the murder and there was

00:24:25.080 historians that have leaned towards that view that Connelly was more the perp. Now, what have you

00:24:30.880 discovered? Oh, I discovered so much. I tell you what, poor Jim Connelly is what I can say. That

00:24:38.120 man stood up for his life for one thing. I guess I'll go back because what people don't know and

00:24:44.260 what the ADL won't tell you is that Leo Frank framed three people for the murder of little

00:24:50.360 Mary Fagan by his comments to the detectives. And also, Leo Frank hired one of his defense

00:24:56.240 attorneys before he even interviewed with the detectives. So he got his own attorney

00:25:01.680 in there. So he tries to frame Newt Lee. Newt Lee finds the body, like you said. There's

00:25:08.020 two notes there. Newt Lee calls the police station. The police station come. The detectives

00:25:13.720 come. They go down the scuttle hole. This is one of Leo Frank's defense, that the murder

00:25:19.400 was convicted by Jim Conley

00:25:21.360 going down the scuttle hole.

00:25:23.300 It's everywhere in the newspaper articles.

00:25:25.240 I've confirmed that. You know how big the scuttle

00:25:27.480 hole is? Two feet

00:25:29.300 by two feet by

00:25:31.400 four feet and two inches.

00:25:33.460 Okay. Now, the

00:25:35.420 detectives had difficulty getting down

00:25:37.380 there, and it was 14 feet down.

00:25:39.940 So if he had thrown the body

00:25:41.360 of Mary Fagan, the autopsy report, which

00:25:43.440 we'll talk about later, would have indicated that,

00:25:45.440 but it did not. And the

00:25:47.340 Detectives said nobody could come down with another carrying a body.

00:25:53.440 Eventually, I will tell you that the defense gave up on that theory of Jim Connolly.

00:25:58.500 Okay, so that's what I'm saying.

00:26:00.220 But Newt Lee was the one, he looked at his time stamp,

00:26:03.820 and he checked every half hour that he was supposed to do for his basement,

00:26:08.240 and for the basement and everything.

00:26:09.680 Checked it, and Frank came by and said, oh, all correct.

00:26:12.180 Not a problem, not a problem.

00:26:13.720 The biggest mistake that was made by the detectives, in my opinion,

00:26:16.640 was the fact that they let Leo Frank take the time card

00:26:20.140 because it was a punch card.

00:26:22.200 And the next day he came back

00:26:24.320 and the punch card had left certain blanks at the time

00:26:29.260 that Newt Lee could murder Mary Fagan.

00:26:33.480 Interesting, isn't it?

00:26:34.660 I want you to know that Newt Lee stayed in prison

00:26:38.020 from that time that he come in April 28th or whatever.

00:26:41.840 I think it was April 28th when he,

00:26:43.280 yeah, April 28th, whatever,

00:26:45.400 until August 26th, the day after the sentencing of the trial of Leo Frank.

00:26:51.820 He was never released.

00:26:54.680 Now, so that's the first person.

00:26:57.180 The second person was a friend of the Fagan family, a white guy, John Gant,

00:27:01.700 who was in higher echelon up in the pencil factory,

00:27:05.880 and he was fired the week before because there was a shortage,

00:27:09.040 and he refused to pay the shortage.

00:27:10.500 I think the shortage was either $1 or $2.

00:27:12.820 I've seen $1, and I've seen $2 in places.

00:27:15.400 I just knew there was a shortage of funds, so I probably should just say that.

00:27:19.100 But anyway, he came to the pencil factory.

00:27:22.180 Oh, he told Newt Lee that he wanted to, he came at 4 o'clock.

00:27:25.160 That's important, too.

00:27:26.060 He came in at 4 o'clock.

00:27:27.320 He told Newt Lee, I need you to come back at 6 o'clock.

00:27:29.820 And he said, well, I can go lay down in the basement on the cot.

00:27:32.080 And Leo Frank said no.

00:27:35.060 Okay.

00:27:35.600 So John Gatt comes around 6 o'clock when Newt Lee comes.

00:27:39.640 And he tells the detectives to get his shoes that he left there.

00:27:46.860 But when the detectives questioned John Gant, Leo Frank told the detectives that John was very intimate with Mary Fagan.

00:28:00.660 Okay, so they arrested him. 0.71

00:28:03.600 And he was arrested, but thankfully, and I think it was white privilege, but he was relieved. 0.57

00:28:09.640 least within three to five days after he was arrested. And then the third person, of course, 0.62

00:28:13.780 was Jim Conley. I will tell you that it was definitely a racist trial, definitely racism

00:28:21.240 everywhere, but not against Leo Frank. It was against Newt Lee, Jim Conley, and all the other

00:28:27.260 Black people. Daddy told me, and which I forgot to mention, it was the first time ever in the

00:28:32.220 history of the South and Georgia that Black men and women were allowed to testify at a trial and

00:28:37.840 help convict a white man. So one of the other defenses that the defense had for Leo Frank was

00:28:44.020 white privilege. That was their defense, white privilege, the scuttle hole, and Jim Connolly did

00:28:50.120 it. Now, it's just interesting that today you don't hear like SPLC or, you know, black power 0.93

00:28:58.160 groups talking about this case. Like you just don't hear the racial stereotypes or the white

00:29:04.640 privilege claims when it's about this case because what it was how are they going to go here because

00:29:10.620 it's a a jewish guy who's blaming two black guys right so like that right there is going to make

00:29:17.300 their heads scramble like who do you side with but then somehow they blame the kkk for it all 0.97

00:29:22.260 but then it stops being about this little girl who was raped and murdered what about that all 0.99

00:29:28.600 of a sudden it's just about discrimination and oh jews were hated more than blacks and blah blah 0.82

00:29:34.160 law and right like the whole racial hierarchy and all that and that's not true and i will tell you

00:29:40.160 the it is a misrepresentation of using the kkk that was one of my biggest discoveries during

00:29:45.640 covid so what i found out the kkk had nothing to do with the lynching of leo frank or the rebirth

00:29:55.340 of the kkk nothing the vigilance committee they were not called the knights of mary fagan and

00:30:02.520 they were not part of the KKK. There was no evidence to support. In fact, that is something

00:30:06.640 I had to correct in my book. So I don't like making corrections, Amanda. You know what I'm

00:30:11.660 saying? And if it's the truth, it's the truth. You've got to write the truth. And so that's my

00:30:19.040 whole purpose is to show you that the truth has been revised. And more people are seeing the

00:30:26.560 point of view of the Fagan family now because of that. You know, they can see that. You have to

00:30:32.080 tell the truth yes and so this big thing about the kkk yeah nothing it had nothing to do you

00:30:41.300 know i mean i personally think any of the kkk stories are always nothing burgers

00:30:45.100 but i just know that that's not true in the mary fagan story the kkk did not revise itself and

00:30:52.480 that was one of the things that my dad told me my daddy told me that and he said it was you know

00:30:56.300 first time black people were testified it was to help form the new kkk he thought that

00:31:01.560 and he said the Knights of Mary Fagan he wasn't sure about it but he didn't think so but you know

00:31:05.760 he you know heard stories from his elders and I just told him that I had to find the historical

00:31:13.180 evidence to support what we are saying so that no one can say that we are not telling the truth

00:31:20.040 yeah and you know because I was always taught he always his biggest saying to me every time I

00:31:25.180 discovered something or did something he said truth wins and slowly the truth has been winning

00:31:30.580 with this case and i'm very excited to say that and announce that on your program today i'm glad

00:31:35.920 to hear it yeah that it's it's time for it now let's talk about alonzo mann's statements because

00:31:40.220 that was uh frank's young office boy in 1913 he gave multiple accounts after the murder testified

00:31:46.120 at trial without mentioning seeing the black janitor carrying the body or being threatened

00:31:50.900 and then he had this 1982 affidavit name was it 70 years later that was completely different now

00:31:58.120 walk us through because he's important right this alonzo man yeah he's very important and i forgot

00:32:04.420 to do what i said i was going to do but anyway if you have a copy of my book or want a copy of it

00:32:08.660 you can go to my website littlemaryfagan.com and order it or amazon but it's chapter 10 i go into

00:32:13.800 really good detail about alonzo man and i have some highlights of comparing his um travels

00:32:21.000 from the travel that he said that he testified.

00:32:27.460 And this picture on the left, I guess it's your right,

00:32:31.040 the one here with this picture here is very interesting.

00:32:34.360 This was in the National Tennessean, and this is exactly proof that I have

00:32:37.500 that I show you that they revised this history.

00:32:40.180 So that was the picture in it, and the original picture said,

00:32:43.980 well, eager, impatient crowd waiting for doors to open for Frank trial.

00:32:47.420 And there's women there and there's children there.

00:32:49.700 Well, what the Tennessean did is they took that picture and they changed the word crowd and put mobs.

00:32:54.040 I'm an educator.

00:32:55.380 I know what the definition of the crowd is.

00:32:57.280 And I know what the definition of mobs are, too.

00:33:01.060 So this is how they transfer the revision of the history.

00:33:06.060 They're changing the documents.

00:33:09.100 They're censoring the documents.

00:33:11.480 I got censored in 2019, along with the Nation of Islam's book.

00:33:16.640 Our books got censored.

00:33:17.700 from Amazon at one point.

00:33:21.720 I don't know why I'm on Amazon now.

00:33:23.780 Who knows, you know?

00:33:24.920 I'm not going to complain, right?

00:33:26.620 But that's how they do it.

00:33:28.260 That's what they do.

00:33:29.120 And with Alonzo, man, he had told his testimony.

00:33:32.960 I think he worked two Saturdays before, and that was it.

00:33:35.580 He said he left at 1130.

00:33:37.540 When he came back in 1982, and that was the year that I came out.

00:33:45.740 i asked the fagan family to come out i was very hurt but a school secretary called me and on a

00:33:54.920 saturday she called me and i thought god what is miss youngblood calling me on a saturday for

00:33:58.620 mary turn on the tv now you need to turn it on now okay okay wait wait big thing bonzo man says

00:34:06.040 that leo frank is innocent of the murder of mary fagan and that jim connelly the black guy did it

00:34:12.280 was he gotten to they've been they've been working this they're still working this case

00:34:19.380 that's why so in 1982 all this miniseries in business started but because they didn't exonerate

00:34:25.300 leo frank they never finished it they didn't get all their things that they wanted i think they

00:34:30.460 got a pulitzer prize is that what they call us yes yes but you know that should be taken away

00:34:35.860 in my opinion, because I can prove what they did

00:34:38.580 and how they gave a false narrative.

00:34:43.380 So, I mean, it just blows your mind.

00:34:45.860 So he told the story about his mom and all this stuff and his mom.

00:34:49.300 And why would he go back to the pencil factory on Monday

00:34:52.740 knowing that Jim Conley's going to be there?

00:34:56.840 He said he saw Jim Conley with the body of Mary Fagan.

00:34:59.600 And that's pretty much the difference between what the jury heard

00:35:05.140 and what happened according to him.

00:35:09.380 But with Fagan's family, I met him in person.

00:35:13.320 He came to my home.

00:35:15.420 I asked him if he knew Mary Fagan.

00:35:16.800 He said he didn't know her, but he knew of her

00:35:19.840 and that he remembers seeing her in a red wagon with bows in her hair.

00:35:23.320 I said, okay.

00:35:24.440 He did not see Jim Collingwood or Mary Fagan.

00:35:27.800 Now, remember, the scuttle hole is two feet by two feet by four feet, two inches.

00:35:31.880 The only way, there's two ways to get to the basement.

00:35:35.140 the elevator, and the scuttle hole.

00:35:39.580 So the scuttle hole was ruled out even in the defense.

00:35:41.860 But now he's saying that he saw him on the first floor.

00:35:46.960 How was he going to go get to the basement?

00:35:50.740 You know, I couldn't figure that out.

00:35:52.680 So I did more research, and I just found out that he claims all this.

00:35:55.700 I also found out, and I don't think, I think I did put it in my book,

00:35:59.200 but remember I told you about Celestine's sibling and Bill Kenny?

00:36:02.300 In the 50s, he came forward, and he went to the newspapers, and one of the Atlanta Journal people, I can't remember his name, but I think I put it in the book, he said that he had information regarding the trial of Leo Frank and that Leo Frank was innocent.

00:36:22.300 Well, they didn't believe him because they told me, I mean, Bill did, Mr. Kenny told me that he was known as a drunk, and so nobody believed him.

00:36:30.500 And also because Mrs. Frank was still alive at the time that they didn't want it.

00:36:34.860 Ralph McGill, that's who it was with the Atlanta Journal-Constitution.

00:36:38.020 Okay, so, you know, big editor.

00:36:39.980 And they decided not to print it at all.

00:36:42.580 So he had told a story in the Army.

00:36:44.100 He told it everywhere, but nobody believed him.

00:36:47.100 Now, all of a sudden, the American Jewish Committee and the American Committee,

00:36:51.140 the Atlanta Federation of Jewish and the ADL come involved with Alonzo Mann

00:36:56.440 and demand an exoneration from Leal.

00:37:01.140 Amazing. 1.00

00:37:02.300 They demand it.

00:37:03.400 They don't ask for it.

00:37:04.360 They demand it.

00:37:06.100 Yeah.

00:37:06.820 Okay?

00:37:07.280 So that's what happened with that.

00:37:09.140 And then that's when I, like I said, came out.

00:37:12.420 So I read something in the newspaper about it.

00:37:14.320 Secret again.

00:37:15.120 Okay, everything's secret.

00:37:17.040 And we had no idea this was happening,

00:37:18.760 that these three groups were meeting with the Georgia Pardons and Paroles Board

00:37:22.680 or asked to meet with the Georgia.

00:37:24.100 They wanted the governor to exonerate him, but in Georgia, the governor could not do it.

00:37:29.820 Joe Frank Harris could not do it.

00:37:30.920 He had to refer it to the Georgia Pardons and Paroles Board.

00:37:33.220 So they have a panel, and they decide on these things, and they do that when it comes to issues like that.

00:37:38.620 So I talked to my daddy, and I said, Daddy, I think we need to do something.

00:37:47.320 He said, Are you ready?

00:37:49.460 I said, Yes, sir, I'm ready.

00:37:51.640 I knew enough back then that I felt confident that I could argue and debate and win.

00:38:01.700 He said, what do you want to do?

00:38:03.140 I said, I'd like to call this Mr. Michael Wing that's listed in the newspaper with the

00:38:06.420 Georgian Pardons and Paroles Board and ask him that if they get an application for an

00:38:10.220 exoneration of Leo Frank, would they please notify the Fagan family since everything's

00:38:14.380 been done in secret and we never get any information. 0.83

00:38:17.860 He said, go for it.

00:38:19.700 You're going to laugh on this one.

00:38:20.920 So I called Mr. Wing, and he thought it was a prank call.

00:38:25.160 Yeah.

00:38:27.040 And, you know, he just said, what?

00:38:29.580 We were told that there was no close family related.

00:38:32.440 I said, that is incorrect information.

00:38:34.600 My grandfather was her brother.

00:38:37.420 My dad is my father, James Edward Fagan, and I'm Mary Fagan.

00:38:41.580 Was I married at the time?

00:38:42.500 Yeah, I was.

00:38:42.960 Mary Fagan Keene.

00:38:43.640 I'm Mary Fagan Keene.

00:38:45.020 And he said, well, I'm just so shocked.

00:38:47.600 He stuttered.

00:38:48.340 I mean, it was amazing.

00:38:49.120 And he said, but yes, I will do that for you.

00:38:51.840 If we get an application from those groups, we will notify you.

00:38:55.700 Sure enough, Silas Moore, his deputy assistant, a couple months in January called me and told me that they had gotten the complete application for exoneration of Leo Frank.

00:39:06.080 It was the first time ever that, and I felt good because it was the first time I ever came out and something really did happen that I wanted.

00:39:13.440 You know what I'm saying?

00:39:14.640 It was like a positive experience for me to continue what I needed to do,

00:39:19.180 and I know I needed to do more.

00:39:21.640 So that's how that happened.

00:39:23.140 Now, it was very strange that the board said that they would not interview anybody,

00:39:27.800 but they did interview my father and I.

00:39:31.640 So we went up there, and they asked, you know, my dad said, look,

00:39:35.840 and I'm proud of my daddy for this.

00:39:37.520 He said, I'm going to tell you here right now.

00:39:39.320 if the fagan family really felt that leo frank was innocent we would behind this

00:39:45.260 behind this exoneration but jim connelly's statements don't make make a difference

00:39:49.580 i mean alonzo mann's statements do not make a change

00:39:52.760 you know because he changed his statements yeah obviously someone got him it was all these years

00:40:00.360 later i didn't see him carrying about oh no and then you know how many years later oh i did see

00:40:05.920 him carrying the body it's kind of it's a little suspicious don't you think people said it was

00:40:11.060 suspicious and so my dad said we would be we would love to this is what he said he's basically said

00:40:16.960 we would like to join you in announcing the exoneration if you really think there is this

00:40:23.380 this evidence proves that jim connelly murdered mary fagan but at this time the fagan family does

00:40:29.140 not believe that. And, you know, and one of them, oh, I wish I could remember his name.

00:40:36.040 I know it wasn't that guy. No, Wayne Snow was the jerk, I think. Oh, I shouldn't have 0.99

00:40:40.440 said that. But anyway, the elder gentleman, he was the oldest and he was getting ready

00:40:45.200 to retire from the board. He looked at me and he said, Mary, this must be very difficult

00:40:50.120 for you. And I said, yes, sir, it is. It is. And so, but like I said, that was my coming

00:40:59.060 out, to be honest with you. I really came out. I want to ask you about the historical marker

00:41:04.080 near Mary's grave in Marietta. That was altered in 1995. So, tell us about what changed in the

00:41:10.920 wording, who was involved, what happened there. Okay, yeah. In 1994, the Marietta City Cemetery

00:41:16.700 decided that they were going to honor individuals there with historical markers.

00:41:22.280 And one of them was little Mary Fagan. They called my daddy and asked if they could put

00:41:27.480 a historical marker up there. My dad said, nope, don't want it. Don't need it. Her grave's the most

00:41:32.820 visited in the cemetery. She's got a beautiful plaque. She's got a grave that's just gorgeous,

00:41:39.180 you know, and it's made out of marble. And he said, nope, don't want it. So the mayor got involved,

00:41:45.720 Mayor Joe Mack Wilson, and called my daddy and said, Mr. Fagan, we would love for you to reconsider,

00:41:50.220 please. That is the most visited grave in the cemetery, and we would just like to direct people

00:41:55.140 to it and to read about the history. He said, how about this? If we

00:41:59.380 write the sign, we will let you approve what the verbiage

00:42:03.160 says. So my dad said, well, I need to think about it.

00:42:07.380 So he talked with me and he said, and the elders, the elders were still alive back then.

00:42:11.820 And he talked with the elders and he said, what do y'all think?

00:42:15.360 And they said, well, as long as you approve it, we agree to it. But we don't

00:42:19.420 want them putting up what they want to put up.

00:42:21.400 Okay, so interesting that a rabbi, Steve LeBeau, from his temple, comes to Georgia from Florida and hears about the Leo Frank case and does all this stuff.

00:42:33.000 So anyway, what happened, this is what he said, what it said.

00:42:36.760 I've got to read it from here for you.

00:42:38.480 And you can see that where I did it in the book, where I copied the original, and then, wow, they changed it.

00:42:43.820 And then this tells the articles about it.

00:42:47.020 So this is what it said.

00:42:48.320 Mary Fagan, celebrated in song as Little Mary Fagan after her murder on that Confederate Memorial Day, 1913, in Atlanta.

00:42:56.760 The grave is marked by the CSA veterans in 1915.

00:43:00.460 Tribute by Tom Watson set in 1933.

00:43:03.360 Leo Frank, sentenced to hang, granted clemency before lynching August 17, 1915.

00:43:09.100 His 1986 pardon, based on state's failure to protect him, apprehended the killers, not Frank's innocence.

00:43:15.780 Okay, is that the old one?

00:43:16.800 I don't know. That's the no one, isn't it? Yeah, that's it.

00:43:20.600 Okay, this is what they changed it to, the one you've got up there.

00:43:24.240 Celebrated in song as Little Mary Fagan after her murder at age 13 on April 26, 1913 in Atlanta.

00:43:30.700 Here's the venture.

00:43:31.840 The trial and conviction of Leo Frank were controversial,

00:43:35.860 as was the commutation of his death sentence four days before Confederate veterans marked her grave on June 25, 1915.

00:43:42.800 1915. He was abducted from prison and lynched August 17th, 1915. In 1986, he was issued a

00:43:49.680 pardon. That is fooling the public. So I got mad again. Here I go getting again. And I said,

00:43:57.080 Daddy, we got to do something about that. Oh, you got that other marker up there too that I

00:44:01.200 did win some on that one. They had to put without addressing his guilt or innocence on that one

00:44:06.160 because I wrote a letter and I told the transportation that does the historical

00:44:09.440 or marcos that they claim anti-semitism resulted in a guilty verdict no how about is the evidence

00:44:15.820 dude whatever happened to that you know again once again using it as a scapegoat right yeah

00:44:21.740 i mean that's what happened and you know so my my uh you know it it just goes on and on of how

00:44:29.560 they just revise everything yeah and very disheartening because i'm sure you think you're

00:44:34.960 one person and then um well now you're dealing with a very powerful lobby we're dealing with

00:44:41.220 the adl that still is after you know after people who are saying leo frank is guilty now what can

00:44:47.780 you tell us back then what have you learned about like the formation of the adl which was founded

00:44:53.360 in response to this case and the benai brith connection what can you tell us because they

00:44:59.060 But Nightbrook was the parent organization of ADL, right?

00:45:03.440 That's true.

00:45:04.020 He was president, like you said.

00:45:05.140 He was reelected after his conviction.

00:45:07.400 So in September of 1913, oh, here comes the name again.

00:45:12.260 And the city, Albert Lasker, Chicago, Aldolf Hawks, New York Times.

00:45:20.260 Remember, they had a campaign.

00:45:21.920 But a month after the conviction, they decided they were going to do a financial campaign

00:45:26.640 to say that leo frank was innocent of the murder of my great aunt however albert lasker in his own 0.78

00:45:32.880 biography said that he thought when he met leo frank that he was a sexual pervert 0.62

00:45:39.440 you know yeah and that was the reason he was convicted was a sexual pervert not anti-semitism

00:45:44.880 yeah exactly but they won't do that they don't they don't tell you about the there was 20 girls

00:45:50.880 and some were boys i just changed that i found out that was another discovery i found out that

00:45:55.760 one or two little boys oh i bet you also made comments that was just doesn't little girls but

00:46:00.080 they shared that he was making advances to girls in the in the factory so that was interesting 0.95

00:46:07.200 that's why it's because he was a sexual pervert not because he was jewish at all and i don't 0.63

00:46:13.120 believe i mean you know yes it was a difference between the war between the states and the 0.96

00:46:17.360 southern industrialization was changing and atlanta was changing and it was doing a lot of things in

00:46:22.000 there and there was some resentment still towards um people that came from the north i agree with

00:46:26.840 that i have no problem with that it was difficult you know but what they did was they made a lot of

00:46:31.380 factories where 10 and 12 year olds and 13 year olds all the way to age and up were working at

00:46:37.440 these factories child slave labor yeah there you go child slaver slave labor predators just like

00:46:44.840 Jeffrey Epstein. Exactly. Except the problem is Jeffrey Epstein's girls they don't get 0.63

00:46:51.560 I'm gonna cry. They don't they don't get a sentence. I mean he hung himself.

00:47:01.520 So they say. So they say. I wonder about that too. But you know at least they don't get resolve.

00:47:09.600 You know we felt that our family it's been resolved. We don't need to talk about it anymore.

00:47:14.840 So come on. Here it is. Here's all the stuff.

00:47:19.200 You know, but Leo Frank was just in an oh, the other thing that he did was Leo Frank said some things during his statement.

00:47:26.120 He was allowed to give a statement, but he he did not allow to be cross-examined, cross-examined.

00:47:30.260 He made that option. He did not choose to be cross-examined.

00:47:33.440 He said that he was busy on work on Saturday. I did. Oh, this is a great find for me.

00:47:39.080 I have the brief of evidence here in my room with my Mary Fagan stuff that I have left

00:47:43.240 because I donated most of it to Georgia State University.

00:47:46.480 But I found that all the documents that he gave the jury,

00:47:49.740 they were all dated April 24th and 25th.

00:47:52.660 None were dated April 26th, the day he was in the, the day she was murdered.

00:48:00.700 No documents have the date April 26th whatsoever

00:48:04.300 because it was Confederate Memorial Day.

00:48:07.660 That's right.

00:48:09.080 And the pay schedule had changed, which Mary had not seen the notices

00:48:13.000 because she was laid off the week before.

00:48:15.400 So she asked a friend to get the paycheck, and Leo Frank said no.

00:48:19.700 Or not Leo Frank, but the person that she went to the payroll thing said no.

00:48:25.440 And so that means he knew also that she was coming in on Saturday.

00:48:30.700 And she had made mention to my great-grandmother that he was bothering her.

00:48:34.640 and that's

00:48:36.380 great grandfather testified at the trial

00:48:38.720 that she said those things to her mother

00:48:40.800 and she was looking to resign

00:48:42.740 because she was laid off

00:48:44.660 and it was just like a perfect time 0.89

00:48:46.160 for her to quit

00:48:47.840 but he knew she was coming

00:48:50.600 that's the other thing I discovered too

00:48:52.660 but yeah he didn't do any work

00:48:55.060 he was supposed to go to the ball game with his

00:48:56.560 brother-in-law at 1 o'clock

00:48:58.300 for goodness sake so how did he get any work

00:49:00.240 this isn't there

00:49:01.720 so these are all the things that

00:49:03.280 the historians that are the same religious faith they refuse to acknowledge so they don't want to

00:49:08.820 they don't want to see the truth and i'm acknowledging them and i i'm calling them out

00:49:13.480 yeah what the rabbi labo did with that marker was

00:49:16.840 evil that's all i'm going to say it's desecrating a grave even though the markers outside her grave

00:49:23.800 like i said i got mad and then in 2016 all my elders were gone bill kenny everybody was gone

00:49:30.040 that I knew that were people that I trusted that knew about the case.

00:49:34.420 So I put my own marker up on Mary Fagan's grave.

00:49:37.320 I don't know if you have a picture of that or not.

00:49:39.080 But anyway, I put it up and I put little Mary Fagan is the daughter of Fannie and John Fagan.

00:49:45.440 She was born on June 1st, 1899 in Florence, Alabama.

00:49:48.900 She was a beautiful little girl with fair complexion, blue eyes, dimples, long reddish brown hair,

00:49:54.120 and was jovial and happy and thoughtful towards others.

00:49:56.620 On April 26, she went to plan to go get her paycheck of $1.20, and that was Confederate Memorial Day Parade.

00:50:03.420 She told her mother she would be home after the parade.

00:50:05.580 Mary did not return home that afternoon and was found raped and murdered in the basement of the National Pencil Company around 3 a.m. on April 27, 1913.

00:50:14.140 Mary was 13 years old.

00:50:15.900 Leo Frank, superintendent of the National Pencil Company, was arrested, tried, and convicted for the rape and murder of Mary Fagan.

00:50:21.620 Leo Frank was lynched August 17, 1950 by the Knights of Mary Fagan.

00:50:25.720 No Fagan was involved in the lynching.

00:50:27.640 The 1986 pardon does not exonerate

00:50:29.940 Leo Frank for the murder of Little Mary.

00:50:31.820 And on the bottom I put

00:50:32.860 Little Mary Fagan is not forgotten.

00:50:35.080 There's several errors in here

00:50:36.060 that I corrected in the book.

00:50:37.380 So I just want people to know

00:50:38.480 that I did that.

00:50:40.240 I need to correct that.

00:50:41.320 John, they got that as her stepfather.

00:50:43.300 Her real father was Joshua.

00:50:44.680 So I need to correct that.

00:50:45.820 I just didn't realize that one.

00:50:47.320 What was the other errors in there?

00:50:48.940 Oh, the rape and murder

00:50:49.880 that he was charged with rape and murder.

00:50:51.980 He was not charged for her rape,

00:50:53.780 but the autopsy report indicated that she was severely brutally raped so but she was he was

00:50:59.280 charged with murder and then the other thing was the Knights of Mary Fagan that did not exist as I

00:51:04.860 as I mentioned before they were called the Vigilance Committee and I found all the evidence

00:51:10.700 in even through the 1914s by looking through all the newspaper articles regarding the lynching

00:51:15.680 and every time it was called Vigilance Committee that's the rabbi that did the marker change

00:51:21.620 and he said despicable he said it was despicable because it was uh uh you know 0.61

00:51:27.300 oh my gosh a despicable human being yeah and then there's a green green blatt

00:51:34.000 and then he yeah and then he goes to mary's grave i told him he was not welcome anymore i told the 0.92

00:51:40.260 newspapers to tell him see he was not welcome yeah i get it to my stomach yeah obnoxiously sick

00:51:47.640 yep because he didn't care about that he said he said that marker was an insult to the jewish

00:51:52.160 community of maria well he's an insult to the jewish community of america for what he's done

00:51:56.740 oh you should have seen what he'd done on the anniversary of leo frank's luncheon it was

00:52:00.080 disgusting what did he do he had coca-cola bottles made saying that he was innocent t-shirts

00:52:04.980 everything i mean they are so committed like jonathan greenblatt posting how they are committed 0.89

00:52:14.880 to honoring leo frank's legacy what legacy child abuse sexual abuse and harassment and murder of

00:52:22.620 children why is this so important this case has remained a central reference point for this adl

00:52:29.100 ever since and like i said this is the best guy they have why do they need to rewrite this story

00:52:35.900 why is it so important i don't know i'm just trying to get to the root of that what do you

00:52:40.440 think in your conclusions why this story you know i just don't know i just don't know why the stories

00:52:49.960 are like that i have no idea but i will tell you this is that um jonathan greenblatt and i'm trying

00:52:59.180 to remember the exact year 2021 okay that's in i have my i wrote newsletters so i have all my

00:53:04.720 newsletters they're 2021 thanks to elon musk he got community noted for the first yeah readers

00:53:11.160 added some context here and most of the readers were uh 100 towards 98 towards uh that he was

00:53:20.240 guilty yeah and he had to cut off the comment yeah and there were some jews on the jury too

00:53:24.540 there were a few jews on there which was uh no there wasn't a couple of jews on the jury on the

00:53:30.160 jury on the grand jury okay okay yeah i need to clarify that a lot of people say the jury it's

00:53:35.300 the grand jury had five and only four were there and the absolute ruling was 21 to zero

00:53:41.000 to refer frank for trial for the murder of mary fagan yeah yeah but we're supposed to have

00:53:47.000 compassion for him now i want to also talk about the fulton county conviction integrity unit which

00:53:52.660 was what a mouthful orwellian created by atlanta's district attorney office in 2019 to review

00:53:58.720 potentially wrongful convictions and from the start which case did they want to review first

00:54:04.060 the leo frank case that's the one that they're going to re-examine you know it's amazing since

00:54:10.480 the start of this conviction integrity unit as you've said um you've had books removed other

00:54:19.200 people have had books removed documentaries banned court records have been taken offline

00:54:25.140 YouTube videos have been removed.

00:54:27.580 A lot of original newspaper archives are no longer available, right?

00:54:32.200 Right.

00:54:33.100 Exactly.

00:54:34.360 So 2019, so Governor, former Governor Roy Barnes,

00:54:37.600 he's not, you know, evidently, of course, not going to be one of my favorite people now,

00:54:42.360 but he and the rabbi worked in secret with a whole group of people in the state of Georgia,

00:54:48.940 very popular, very well-known, wealthy people in Georgia,

00:54:53.420 to talk to Powell Howard, the district attorney at the time,

00:54:56.860 to create this Conviction Integrity Unit.

00:54:59.640 What upset the Fagan family, as we knew, 0.94

00:55:03.860 it won, it was in secret,

00:55:05.940 but the biggest upset,

00:55:08.140 and they announced it on the day that my great-aunt was murdered.

00:55:16.280 With all the newspapers and everything,

00:55:19.420 it was pretty bad.

00:55:23.420 pretty bad you know the day she was murdered

00:55:27.100 are you there yeah i'm here i'm okay i'm sorry i'm sorry they they announced the day she was

00:55:35.460 murdered and so he lost to fanny willis who i'm sure you've heard of with trump and everything

00:55:40.160 so you know and ironically george um froy barnes her attorney is her attorney for the senate

00:55:48.220 committee here looking at her for all the things that she did with the rico case and so last april

00:55:54.700 on during the time that parade the musical was here and by the way it was written by alfred

00:56:00.540 uri who his who his uncle was the owner of the pencil factory oh he's the one that wrote uh

00:56:06.700 driving miss daisy yeah so they did that and then um he uh went to i lost my train of thought um

00:56:18.220 Oh, 2025, the day parade was due for a week there.

00:56:22.700 Donnie Willis announced that the case was being looked into.

00:56:25.980 And since then, we have not heard anything.

00:56:27.840 But the conviction integrity unit was just disgusting.

00:56:30.980 I mean, I wrote a letter.

00:56:31.900 They didn't want me in.

00:56:32.620 They hired Governor Barnes as a consultant.

00:56:35.900 And so what I did with the book is everywhere he went to speak about it,

00:56:40.140 guess who was in the front seat?

00:56:44.000 Umoa.

00:56:45.080 Mm-hmm. 0.98

00:56:46.560 Mm-hmm.

00:56:47.140 Yeah, so I've got chapters on all the best statements he has and newsletters that the rabbi and him did and everybody and every time and Fonnie Willis and Howard and how they've done it.

00:56:57.560 It's all documented. And I am very grateful for the people that have bought my book and that, you know, I always take questions.

00:57:05.260 So anytime anybody has questions, they're more than willing to come. They're more than welcome to contact me.

00:57:10.040 now let me ask you after after what six decades of research is there anything that is uncertain

00:57:16.400 uncertain in your mind at all about this case like any loose ends or possibilities that he

00:57:24.000 you know oh he's in he might be innocent no but i have to be honest you know when i was younger

00:57:31.660 i had those thoughts because you heard it so much yeah yeah yeah well and i think that it

00:57:39.240 You know, I was researching so much back at that time.

00:57:41.720 Like I said, I had 57, what, 58, 59 years of information, all the newspaper articles, the original.

00:57:51.080 And they're at my collection at Georgia State.

00:57:52.940 I have all the, when I had to go to the Georgia State, we had to have that mammograph machine, you know.

00:57:58.160 And Daddy and I had to make copies of them.

00:58:00.600 And the people at the Georgia State University was just so wonderful, the library there.

00:58:04.640 So that's one reason why we donated.

00:58:06.100 But the main reason why I donated is because the rabbi donated his materials.

00:58:12.320 And so, you know, I definitely have a lot more.

00:58:14.360 I have longer years than him, but he's not related and not nothing.

00:58:17.360 He's just he says he feels his he's his rabbi.

00:58:22.560 Let me tell you, they're organized, though, aren't they?

00:58:24.640 The way that they will rally around one of their own.

00:58:28.480 I mean, just Frank had he had institutional backing from the start.

00:58:32.280 Then these efforts by the ADL and all these groups to rehabilitate his image as this good guy, reexamining the case and the evidence, and they keep trying it until they get, you know, the right, the correct answers.

00:58:46.820 It's simply amazing.

00:58:47.880 Now, what about white Southerners?

00:58:49.160 Have they been rallying around, you know, the Fagan family in defense?

00:58:54.080 I have through podcast, yes.

00:58:56.560 And now I've gone worldwide.

00:58:58.700 But what about people in your community?

00:59:00.480 are they they like supportive have there been people you know throughout the years who have 0.93

00:59:05.080 been supportive of the fagans and in in your camp that are like yes leo frank was guilty and he 0.78

00:59:10.380 deserved to be lynched yes most people feel that way when i when i get through with them 0.89

00:59:15.900 you know i mean it's just that but you got to remember i never talked about it unless i was

00:59:21.720 asked that question so now i'm braver and i have courage and i have purpose to um defend

00:59:29.140 little Mary Fagan's virtue because she was a virgin and she was raped brutally

00:59:33.140 and murdered, you know, and it's really sad, you know, and like the one thing we didn't mention

00:59:39.920 that was Governor Slayton. The reason why the Fagan family was very, very upset with him is

00:59:45.540 because he was a member of the law firm that defended Leo Frank and the Fagan family felt

00:59:49.900 that he had earned compensation, financial compensation before he left office. Oh, yes,

00:59:55.320 i see well we need this to go down in history to reflect the the right history i feel like you know

01:00:01.840 that little mary fagan from the grave is still dealing with some of the enemies same enemies

01:00:08.120 that we are dealing with today you know it's it's it's mind-blowing like just the pursuit of

01:00:14.760 truth and setting the the true historical record has been such a battle you know in the last

01:00:21.800 especially in the last hundred years couple hundred years so how do you think this is going

01:00:26.520 to go down in history last question for you and any other closing thoughts you have anything we

01:00:30.580 didn't cover that you would like to say well i think how it's going to go down history is that

01:00:35.820 truth wins okay it better it better it may not be my time to see it all but i'm starting to see it

01:00:47.020 now. And it's wonderful that people acknowledge that. And I think a lot of people are upset

01:00:56.060 that, you know, Roy Barnes and the rabbi and all those other persons, several of them have died.

01:01:02.460 So out of respect, I'm not saying their names, but they're in my book because they were alive

01:01:06.340 at the time, you know. So, yeah. Okay. Tell people how they could support you and your work

01:01:12.100 and get a copy of your book as well. Okay. You can support me by going to my website

01:01:17.000 www.littlemaryfagan.com

01:01:20.060 and just for your information

01:01:21.560 I have the brief of trial of

01:01:22.740 evidence on there, I have all the

01:01:25.380 trials of the Supreme Court

01:01:26.740 and I have all the

01:01:29.420 books and everything that you can go

01:01:31.240 you can search what you want and I'm being fair

01:01:33.460 I will tell you that the

01:01:35.500 newspaper article, newspapers of the

01:01:37.540 day at the time were very pro-Frank

01:01:39.160 and you can see that

01:01:40.500 and not one time in those articles did they ever mention

01:01:43.440 Leo Frank was Jewish, not one time

01:01:45.560 And three editors of those three newspapers were Jewish as well.

01:01:49.460 So the one thing I want to say is he had 13 appeals all the way to our United States Supreme Court and not one challenged the verdict of guilty.

01:01:58.960 OK. All right. Well, Mary, thank you for your work and putting your face out there and your time and all your efforts.

01:02:05.300 I think that this is very important because the truth matters and the true history.

01:02:09.780 we need to set that record and we need to put that out there so that it's available for people

01:02:13.960 in the future future generations that they may find this so thank you so much i appreciate

01:02:18.820 everything and for you coming on today just one more thing all the monies that i make for the

01:02:23.540 book goes back into the website so that i can translate all the original newspapers and put

01:02:28.240 them in audio and print for people to search and do all kinds of things i'm not taking any of the

01:02:33.140 money it's going right back in there archival research which is important too because that's

01:02:37.560 kind of going away and being censored and all that so archiving some of the things while you

01:02:41.860 still can it's very important so you are right and thank you again for having me today my pleasure

01:02:47.080 i think that this case is so important to the adl because they believe a jewish life is inherently

01:02:54.280 more valuable than any other whether they're innocent or guilty and the written record

01:03:01.160 history must be made to say the same from the grave little mary continues to fight the

01:03:07.400 ADL, just as we do today. 0.66

01:03:10.000 Remember, they are the ones who push

01:03:11.700 to get us banned and blacklisted

01:03:13.620 from telling the truth.

01:03:15.500 Yes, the truth matters, fighting

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Red Ice TV - October 22, 2026

The Murder of Little Mary Phagan with Mary Phagan-Kean

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Transcript