Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - BONUS： God’s Love vs. Worldly Love with Allie & Phil Robertson

00:00:00.000 Hey guys, we've got something a little bit different for you today.

00:00:03.340 I recorded an interview with the guys of the Unashamed podcast with Phil Robertson,

00:00:11.040 Al Robertson, and we had an amazing conversation. And so I wanted to put that

00:00:16.000 interview on this feed to make sure that all of you got to hear it. Love these guys. We had an

00:00:21.980 awesome, really profound and encouraging conversation that I know you're going to love.

00:00:26.080 So here it is. I am unashamed. What about you?

00:00:33.680 So we are super excited today for two reasons. One is we dumped Jace,

00:00:39.520 which is always good or bad, depending on your perspective. But Jace had to go and work on his

00:00:45.940 treasure hunting show. So, but in his place, we have, we have a major upgrade on the Unashamed

00:00:54.440 podcast with Ms. Allie Bestucki. Mrs. Allie Bestucki is with us today. She's one of our fellow

00:01:00.460 Blaze hosts, which we love. So your first time actually in the lair, which we're excited because

00:01:07.720 you've been on the show before. I have. Yes. But we had to Zoom you because it was during the pandemic.

00:01:12.880 Yeah. All that. It's so much better to be in person, I think. Right. It just comes across a lot

00:01:16.700 better. I don't know about an upgrade, but I am honored to be here taking Jace's place.

00:01:20.000 And also we have, Zach is with us today. Zach has been MIA. People have been asking about you,

00:01:27.000 Zach. It's so funny because you get so much grief from Unashamed Nation because Zach used to fill

00:01:31.940 in for me a lot. And so it'd be like, well, it's better when Al's there. Zach's used two big words

00:01:38.040 and they're always throwing him under the bus. And so now I'm getting like, well, wait a minute,

00:01:42.640 where's Zach? We're missing Zach. Where's Zach? And I was like, okay, all we needed was a little bit

00:01:46.600 of a distance. So Zach is going to be taking Jace's chair today. Absolutely. It makes the

00:01:50.780 heart grow fonder. It does. So tell folks what you've been doing just so they'll know because

00:01:55.120 they keep asking me. Yeah. So we're working on a movie right now in Shreveport back in

00:01:59.220 Phil's old stomping grounds. And we've set up shop. We're going to start filming in hopefully three

00:02:06.280 weeks if everything goes as planned. So we've been over there doing pre-production and yeah,

00:02:11.500 it's going to be a powerful story. So definitely stay tuned. We'll let you guys know about what we're

00:02:15.460 doing because we want to definitely get our audience involved in all the pre-marketing

00:02:19.340 stuff. And it's going to take a, you know, take a lot of people to support this and get

00:02:22.500 it out. But it's a, it's a powerful story. Very powerful. So what's your, what's your take

00:02:26.400 on the story? What do you say? What's your take on it? It's embarrassing. That's it. Why

00:02:32.880 you only keep embarrassing me. And so because it's, it's from the era of dad's life that where

00:02:39.100 he wasn't a Christian. So Paul wrote about his past with, he just said, look, I'm the

00:02:45.260 worst. And I read what he was up to before Jesus struck him down on the road to Damascus.

00:02:51.380 He pretty much was the worst. And I thought, you know, it makes me feel a little better

00:02:55.920 that I was not as sorry and low down as this cat. But so now you just run with it. It is what it is.

00:03:05.860 Well, and you know, forgiveness is a powerful thing. I can tell you that. We've talked about

00:03:09.880 this before, dad, because of your, such a stark life change at 28. You know, you had those years

00:03:17.140 before that. And then out of that era, you know, we found out later, we have a sister,

00:03:21.580 Phyllis, that is now in our life. But you know, it was interesting because the, a lot of the national

00:03:26.780 response to you, even by those that don't like you was like, well, he said he was a bad guy.

00:03:32.560 Yeah. And then he turned it around. So I thought, you know, even if you're, if you're pretty open

00:03:37.340 that you had a past and that you weren't who you know, you are now, even people that don't like

00:03:42.660 you're like, well, you know, stuff happens. And I don't know if it's just because of their own

00:03:45.720 personal angst or whatever, but I noticed with dad, that was a lot of the response to when he found

00:03:50.720 out we had a sister. It wasn't like, oh, this guy's a hypocrite. Well, he had already detonated his 0.99

00:03:54.600 own time bomb, which is smart. But a lot of what we're doing in the film takes place in

00:03:59.900 Junction City, Arkansas, which you said you had a connection there, which is interesting.

00:04:04.540 So I've got to.

00:04:05.260 Yes. Very small world. So you coached football in Junction City, correct?

00:04:10.720 Yep.

00:04:11.200 So my dad and his family, when he was young, 1970s, moved to Junction City, Arkansas into the house

00:04:19.220 that you had just moved out of.

00:04:22.940 Isn't that a crazy small world? And so they moved to town. You had just moved out of a house that was

00:04:28.640 owned, I think, by the high school.

00:04:30.720 Correct.

00:04:31.120 You'd moved out so they could move in. And then he did end up playing for the Dragons,

00:04:35.140 but that was later.

00:04:35.820 Did you find any of my stuff around that?

00:04:38.040 I don't know about that. Before my time, I don't think so.

00:04:41.560 Just asking.

00:04:42.740 He's still looking for some of that stuff, Adam.

00:04:45.300 That is amazing.

00:04:46.100 Before I met Jesus at 28, after that, all the Junction City was behind me. I went from just a low-down

00:04:56.880 heathen to an ambassador, as though God were making his appeal to us. He's committed to us the message

00:05:06.220 of reconciliation. So where he put me, brought me up out of that background. Now I'm an ambassador, a messenger for Jesus. So it's a wonderful thing.

00:05:20.000 So a couple of weeks ago, Allie Beth, I was preaching at our local church here, and there was a big bus showed up, and it had about 40 high school girls on the bus. And they all get out. So I was like, hey. So I'll go back and meet them. And they were like, where are you guys from?

00:05:38.040 We said, well, we came to Junction City, Arkansas for a high school basketball tournament. And so we just had to come down here and visit y'all's church.

00:05:48.200 And so I thought about, Dad, the difference in when you were in Junction City. Now people are coming and saying, hey, we want to check you guys out spiritually, you know, find out what you're up to.

00:05:58.160 I've often wondered what kind of, but, you know, my old buddy, he watched me for 12 years after I came to Jesus. 12 years later, at first he came up and said, hey, let's go up the road. I said, no, I'm not going anywhere with y'all anymore.

00:06:16.400 I said, you're fellows who I ran with in the past. I said, you're looking for the old Phil Robertson. He died, you know, and was buried.

00:06:24.860 I was speaking of my baptism. And this is a new one, the new one. No more drunkenness. So hit the road. So they all drove out, left.

00:06:34.160 Well, he kind of kept up with me over a period of 12 years, called me up one night. I went to see him. And he said, guess what the doctor just told me? And I said, I have no idea.

00:06:46.100 He said, the doctor said I have an aneurysm near my heart that could explode at any moment. So I'm hanging by a thread. I have to lose some weight before they do surgery.

00:06:56.520 And this is the baseball coach at Junction City, right? And he was a biology teacher.

00:07:00.880 And a valid atheist. And I said, well, you've been an atheist all your life. Are you having second thoughts about it?

00:07:07.560 He said, I want to know what changed you that much. Because he was talking to me 12 years after I was converted.

00:07:15.060 So I shared Jesus with him. I baptized him. And then about 30 to 50 days later, a month and a half, the aneurysm did explode. So he cut it pretty thin. But he did make it.

00:07:32.500 Well, they called me up, asked me to do the funeral. And I said,

00:07:36.040 Which you'd never done a funeral before.

00:07:37.260 I said, I don't even own a suit. I said, I noticed most of them guys at funerals, they spiffed up.

00:07:41.680 But I said, I've never got around to purchasing a suit. So I think he might have got somebody that's, they said, no, he requested you. I said, okay, I'll be there. So I go up there. It's a packed house, you know, and, and I told him his story, that I would see him again.

00:08:02.500 Yeah. So.

00:08:04.660 That's pretty wild.

00:08:05.880 Your dad, I guess your dad may have played baseball. Did your dad play baseball?

00:08:09.740 Football. He played football at Junction City.

00:08:11.560 Put that in the movie.

00:08:13.180 Yeah. You know, I'm sure he'd be, I'm sure he'd be happy to make a cameo or something.

00:08:17.960 So he was, he was a teenager when they moved to Junction City?

00:08:21.060 Yes. He was a teenager. I don't remember what year it was. Maybe you would remember when you moved out of that house in Junction City.

00:08:27.060 We left about, we left Junction City.

00:08:28.860 70s.

00:08:29.460 72 or 73. So when we left that house, we, we moved, we still were in Junction City, sort of, but we moved up north right on the state line above it where, and we had a bar.

00:08:42.940 And so dad went from being a school teacher to running this bar, which is kind of the heart of, of the, the worst days for us.

00:08:50.240 This was a rough joint.

00:08:51.500 Yeah.

00:08:51.820 So he was still in Junction City. He just, we were kind of on the wrong side of town.

00:08:55.660 Right.

00:08:56.100 You know, during this era. So we were there about another year before we left. So that was right around 72, 73.

00:09:01.380 Yeah. I guess he would have been, well, he was born in 60, so he would have been like a preteen at that age.

00:09:07.000 It's amazing.

00:09:07.960 Yeah. What a small world.

00:09:09.720 Well, we have a lot of family. My whole, my dad's side of the family is all from Louisiana. My grandmother, we just buried her a couple of years ago, not too far from here. So, yep. A lot of connections.

00:09:18.800 Well, you know, which is pretty neat. So out of this house that you were describing. So we, when we moved there, I was four, 1969. We were there about three years.

00:09:28.800 And so from four to seven, that's sort of the year you start having memories. So like my idea of the school was right there. And I viewed it as a little small child. It's just this great wonderland because I had the school, the baseball field. There was a dump down there that I, you know, got to burn my feet a couple of times.

00:09:48.260 But when I went back and looked at it, because I spoke up there a few years ago and it was this little tiny, I mean, it was so small, but, you know, in a child's mind, it was huge.

00:09:59.760 So it was like, you know, kind of brought it into perspective that how much things had changed for me, although the area was still there.

00:10:06.260 The house wasn't there anymore. So where the house used to sit is like a bus barn now.

00:10:10.980 So they have like school buses and stuff there. So the old house is gone, which was my first place that I really remember living was in that Johnson City house, which is fascinating.

00:10:19.900 So Allie's podcast is called Relatable and it's on Blaze TV.

00:10:25.120 And also the book, the last time you were on here, we were talking about it was You're Not Enough and That's Okay.

00:10:29.280 Have you done anything since then? Are you working on anything?

00:10:31.800 I am working on another book, but it's in the very beginning stages. So what have I done since then? Well, I had another baby. So not a book, but very important.

00:10:43.500 And so I've been busy with that and the podcast and the next book will come out probably fall of 2023. So we've got a bit of a ways to go.

00:10:52.420 Excellent. Well, and dad. So you did an interview with dad, too, probably for one of his projects and you were pregnant.

00:10:58.180 Yes, the first time around.

00:10:59.420 Yeah, he remembered that. But but you said he didn't ask you, which I'm so proud of dad because that's so unlike him.

00:11:05.580 I learned my lesson the hard way.

00:11:07.660 You didn't say anything. And I was like eight months pregnant. So it would have been OK.

00:11:11.620 Yes. But I remember the story that he told me.

00:11:14.640 Yeah. One of the sisters, you know, girl, I didn't know you were pregnant. She said, I'm not. And I said, OK.

00:11:21.860 Last time you ever asked that question.

00:11:23.320 This kid got me out in the parking lot. She said, you idiot. 1.00

00:11:25.740 Don't ever ask anybody that. I learned my lesson on that one, you know. 1.00

00:11:31.500 Well, so so I bet that to jump off here today, I wanted your book to me.

00:11:39.080 It really exposed sort of our self-absorbed narcissistic culture.

00:11:46.660 You know, I mean, I thought it was so good for that.

00:11:49.160 And I look back. And so the last time we had you on, we were just a few months into the pandemic.

00:11:55.700 So I thought I want to ask you, since you were here and we had a great discussion, what it over the course of the last year and a half, looking at covid, the response to it, sort of our culture and how that is.

00:12:08.800 How how does that what have you seen over that year and a half as to what you wrote about in the book at our culture?

00:12:15.000 Or is it better? Is it worse? What do you think?

00:12:18.180 Something that I talk about in the book is that this idea that is fed to especially women, that you are enough, you're perfect the way that you are.

00:12:27.200 You don't need to change anything about yourself. Everything that you want, you absolutely deserve and you'll get it if you just work hard enough.

00:12:33.080 It's this very strange new age idea that really inside of you is like this perfect goddess.

00:12:38.040 And if you can just do enough work, you'll finally be able to manifest her.

00:12:42.460 And one of the questions that I posed in my book was, well, how is that going?

00:12:47.020 Is that actually helping the mental health issues that a lot of young people say that they struggle with today?

00:12:52.680 Is it helping the suicide rate? Is it helping people be more confident, more satisfied, more fulfilled?

00:12:57.620 It doesn't look like it because those numbers, those statistics for our generation, millennials and Generation Z, aren't doing well.

00:13:04.400 And yet we are the generations who have been told from birth that we are awesome, that we deserve a trophy no matter what, that life is all about us.

00:13:12.320 We've had these devices in our hands for, you know, over a decade at this point that have made us feel like everything is about us.

00:13:20.300 So if we are being told that everything is about us, that the world centers on us and that we're amazing, and yet we are the generation that's suffering more than previous generations with all of these issues of feeling unfulfilled and unsatisfied and desperate and purposeless, then maybe what we are being told and what we are being sold actually isn't helping us.

00:13:42.160 And I think that has been demonstrated even more so over the past couple of years as we've seen a lot of young people struggle more than ever with feelings of purposelessness and loneliness.

00:13:52.360 And I just keep hearing that the antidote to these things is just loving yourself more, is just thinking about yourself more, is just being more confident in yourself.

00:14:01.900 And the entire premise of my book, and I believe this more strongly than ever, is that the self can't beat both the problem and the solution.

00:14:10.360 If inside yourself you are finding these feelings of inadequacy and insufficiency and desperation and depression and anxiety and all that, you're not going to find the solution to those things in the same place that your problems are found.

00:14:23.760 And so the book is really about how the gospel offers something infinitely and eternally better, that Christians aren't called to self-attention and self-obsession, but to self-denial. 0.78

00:14:34.860 And that paradoxically, it doesn't make sense to our, you know, worldly, fleshly mind, but denying yourself, thinking less of yourself and thinking, really thinking of yourself less, is the key to the satisfaction and the fulfillment and the purpose that you're looking for and can really only be found outside of you in your Creator.

00:14:57.900 Yeah, that's well said.

00:14:59.500 It's very strong.

00:15:00.300 Let's take a break.

00:15:00.960 Zach, Jill wrote her book, Shallow, which to me has some of the same ideas in it that she just described.

00:15:11.500 Speak to that and just kind of how you guys, you know, try to stress that same thing with folks, especially younger people.

00:15:17.100 Yeah, we were on our way back from a conference, a writer's conference in Nashville, and this was several years ago.

00:15:22.420 I won't say the name of the author, but there was a big buzz about a particular author.

00:15:27.520 And I read, so we listened to her book on the way back, and it was basically, the message of the book was exactly what she said, bootstrap yourself up, work hard enough, you know, live your best life.

00:15:36.580 You do you.

00:15:37.360 Girl, wash your face, all that. 0.99

00:15:39.120 Yeah.

00:15:39.660 Got it.

00:15:40.400 Okay.

00:15:41.920 You said it, not me.

00:15:43.560 Oh, okay.

00:15:44.420 Wow.

00:15:44.720 But as I'm listening to it, I'm thinking, you know, the problem here is that in the back of my mind, I know that I'm not enough.

00:15:54.840 I mean, everybody really knows that in the end.

00:15:56.580 So, you know, this idea that we're going to bootstrap ourselves up.

00:15:59.600 And I think what Jill was speaking to in her book, same thing, is just like, we've got to get, like, we don't, like, I think the message that we're hearing in culture now is, is you're not that bad.

00:16:08.840 You know, God loves you the way you are, you're not that bad, and the message of the gospel is that God sees you and says, you're not that bad, you're actually much, much worse than you think you are.

00:16:18.420 Yeah.

00:16:18.940 And I affirm you there, I see you there while we were still sinners and enemies Christ died for us, Romans 5, and that's, I think that's where the gospel is so powerful, especially in the culture today where we are kind of under a new workspace system of righteousness.

00:16:34.180 And, but I think it's just appealing to this inner honesty of, like, like you said, the pragmatic question is, how's it working out for you?

00:16:42.500 You know, we're more miserable than ever, we're more isolated than ever, and I think COVID certainly exacerbated that.

00:16:48.180 But, I mean, these elements were there, and I think the gospel does provide the only solution to the problem because the gospel is about intimacy.

00:16:57.760 It's about restoring intimacy in us, but the only way we're going to be able to find intimacy is if we're known, and the only way that we're going to be known is if we let our depravity be seen, or at least admit that it's there, and then let God, like, say, I see you there, while you're in that place, you know, that's where I came for you, that's where I died for you.

00:17:17.500 So, yeah, I mean, I totally agree.

00:17:20.320 Well, don't you think, too, that the more selfish we are, the more it divides us in terms as a people?

00:17:28.900 I mean, because you think about when COVID first happened, it was a fairly unifying event at the beginning.

00:17:35.360 I mean, you know, the president comes out, and his people come out, and it's like, you know, we got to do something about this.

00:17:40.780 We're not sure, and so Americans were like, man, we got to, you know, do this together, you know, we're going to fight this thing.

00:17:48.800 But it has now, over two years, went from a fairly unifying event to the most, one of the most divisive things that I've ever seen.

00:17:57.640 So why is that?

00:17:59.180 I mean, what happened where people went in and said, hey, this is something we need to do together, and then now, all of a sudden, you can't.

00:18:07.360 Where did we go from the, I heard them talk about it here, there, what little news I get, but the me generation, what was meant by that?

00:18:19.080 The me generation, which one was it?

00:18:21.120 One we just come out of, the 35-year-olds?

00:18:24.040 No, the me generation was actually, I think it was Time Magazine that first called the baby boomers the me generation.

00:18:30.540 Yeah.

00:18:30.800 And then there was, I don't know if this is the official title of millennials.

00:18:34.280 Here comes their children.

00:18:35.720 The me, me, me generation.

00:18:38.380 Right.

00:18:39.120 I know.

00:18:39.600 So I don't know what generation B is, but.

00:18:41.280 It looks like to me, there's a deficit that took place during these generations coming and going.

00:18:50.360 I'm 75.

00:18:52.660 Love is patient.

00:18:55.820 You're like, that does not sit well with the impatient.

00:19:00.620 Love is kind.

00:19:03.280 Love does not envy.

00:19:05.140 So you don't worry about other people.

00:19:07.180 I wish I had what they had.

00:19:08.940 I don't have it.

00:19:09.660 I think there's something wrong with me.

00:19:11.080 They seem to be doing better.

00:19:12.840 It does not boast.

00:19:14.900 Love is not proud.

00:19:17.000 Love is not rude.

00:19:19.220 Love is not self-seeking.

00:19:21.520 Always concerned about you, you, you, you, the me generation.

00:19:25.220 You got that probably from your parents.

00:19:27.960 Love is not easily angered.

00:19:31.060 That would be a nice world if people were slow to get angry.

00:19:36.800 And this one, oh my goodness.

00:19:39.120 Love keeps no record of wrongs.

00:19:43.000 Like, what kind of person would I be if I kept no record of wrongs with the people I interact with?

00:19:53.100 I just let it go.

00:19:55.660 Love does not delight in evil, but rejoices with the truth.

00:19:59.900 Love always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

00:20:06.840 Love never fails.

00:20:07.840 So I'm just looking at it from watching my generation, the me generation, and their children.

00:20:17.000 I just looked at the whole thing, and I said, no wonder Jesus said the two greatest things that there is is love God and love each other.

00:20:28.600 That's the backbone of what I'm about here.

00:20:31.820 It seems simple, but it is rather profound to practice that, loving God and loving your neighbor.

00:20:41.460 And these qualities would come forth from you.

00:20:45.100 It looks like it would be easy to do, but as you live your life, you say, no, it's pretty tough.

00:20:52.620 Because it's selfless, right?

00:20:54.720 I mean, it's...

00:20:55.400 Well, it's a description of God.

00:20:57.240 First John 4, 8 says God is love.

00:20:58.680 All this wrangling within yourself that Alabeth was talking about, all that wrangling with you.

00:21:04.880 It's all about, it's this way instead of...

00:21:07.800 Well, to live a self-absorbed life ultimately is to live a life that's not...

00:21:15.680 We're made in the image of God, the Imago Dei.

00:21:17.880 You know, to live a self-absorbed life is to live a life that's not reflective of who God is.

00:21:23.780 God is outpouring.

00:21:25.840 He's an overflow of love.

00:21:27.280 He's tri... 0.78

00:21:27.900 Because He's triune.

00:21:29.240 You know, you think about, like, this concept of 1 John 4, 8, that God is love.

00:21:33.360 And that's not a description of, like, who He is.

00:21:35.500 He is love.

00:21:36.420 He is these things.

00:21:37.360 And, you know, I try to imagine, you know, this relationship, if you would call it, of father and son, that it's ontologically impossible for the son to manipulate the father.

00:21:49.860 Not that He doesn't do it.

00:21:51.100 He can't do it.

00:21:52.240 He can't abuse His father.

00:21:53.760 And His father, likewise, can't abuse Him.

00:21:55.780 And the spirit between them is this actual person, the Holy Spirit.

00:22:01.060 You think about, what would a relationship look like if it was completely impossible to abuse, to neglect, to manipulate, to position?

00:22:10.680 And it would be one.

00:22:12.020 It would be oneness.

00:22:13.060 And so you think about...

00:22:14.160 You start to explore who God is.

00:22:15.960 And I think, to Allie's point, when we...

00:22:18.620 We're trying to reflect that.

00:22:20.060 God made us to reflect that.

00:22:21.660 And that's why I think people are so miserable, is because they're not living in their true nature.

00:22:27.680 Like, when we're self-absorbed and we live these lifestyles that aren't reflective of who God is, then we're going to be miserable.

00:22:37.000 She was saying a while ago, you know, it's self-denial instead of self-fulfillment.

00:22:41.820 A big difference.

00:22:43.120 Yeah.

00:22:43.660 The fruit of the spirit that God gives us when we, by faith, come to it.

00:22:48.480 The fruit you'll see coming forth from God's people, number one of them is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control.

00:23:01.120 You say, boy.

00:23:02.540 And that's why it says against such things, there is no law.

00:23:06.640 It's the way to roll.

00:23:08.640 But it's a pretty tough sell in today's culture.

00:23:12.140 They just really have not thought it through.

00:23:14.580 So our job is to own them to the one who's the lover of mankind.

00:23:21.520 So, Ali, don't you think, so you introduce something like a virus, and then if your culture is self-absorbed, quickly people begin to think, like, how can we manipulate this situation to gain power? 0.62

00:23:36.580 So isn't that kind of what you saw at all levels of government and state government and even just individually with the Karens and the, you know, just the whole thing, right?

00:23:47.980 I mean, it spun out of control quickly.

00:23:50.860 There are so many different aspects to it.

00:23:52.440 One, it was an election year, whatever Trump said, you know, Democrats were going to say the opposite.

00:23:59.000 And so that made it complicated.

00:24:00.740 But I also saw, I think, this disagreement on what love actually is.

00:24:07.900 And you heard one side saying, well, love your neighbor.

00:24:11.020 Loving your neighbor means that you have to self-isolate, that you can't go to church in person, that you have to wear a mask, and you have to get the vaccine.

00:24:20.040 You have to be for vaccine mandates.

00:24:21.660 It's all of these things we were told by one subset of professing Christians that that is what it looks like to love your neighbor.

00:24:28.560 Essentially saying that if you don't agree with us on these things, that you don't love your neighbor.

00:24:33.100 I would say that is where the real divide came in when it came to the church and Christians disagreeing.

00:24:39.200 What is love?

00:24:40.400 What does it look like to actually love your neighbor as yourself?

00:24:44.040 Is it wearing a cloth covering over your face?

00:24:47.540 Because, you know, Anthony Fauci says so, does it mean having to watch a sermon online rather than congregating in person, as Scripture actually tells us to do?

00:24:57.500 I'm not sure.

00:24:58.400 So that, to me, it was helpful.

00:25:00.200 It was sad, but it was a helpful fault line to see that, essentially, this is not for the church a disagreement about masks or vaccines.

00:25:08.060 This is a disagreement about love.

00:25:09.620 What does love actually look like?

00:25:12.000 Of course, I'm not on the side that thinks that, you know, that you have to wear a cloth mask to love your neighbor.

00:25:17.260 You have to disagree or you have to agree with any COVID policy in particular.

00:25:22.260 But a lot of people did.

00:25:23.520 But I do think, to your point, and I can't speak to the motivations of everyone who kind of put out that line that in order to love your neighbor, you have to get a vaccine.

00:25:31.920 But it did come across to me as a little bit more self-serving.

00:25:35.840 That, look, now I have this physical manifestation of I'm loving.

00:25:39.900 So it doesn't matter if you sit on your couch, you never give to charity, you never help someone, you're never kind.

00:25:44.380 And as long as you just kind of have this what's called a virtue signal, I have this mask, I have my vaccine card, I can post about how terrible COVID is or whatever it is on social media, then I can check the box that I'm loving my neighbor.

00:25:57.680 Without actually having to be loving in any other way, without actually having to deny yourself and be like Christ, you can just do the thing that you've said is, you know, the loving thing to do.

00:26:09.600 And unfortunately, that was very divisive within the church.

00:26:13.520 But like I said, it kind of highlighted a helpful disagreement, a fundamental disagreement between different subsets of Christians.

00:26:20.100 I think that's a very strong point.

00:26:21.900 Let's take a break.

00:26:22.560 Let's take a break.

00:26:52.560 I thought, I don't think that's really getting the message across.

00:26:55.800 It's an opportunity for people, I think, to feel righteous, to feel virtuous without actually having to have any virtue, which is actually difficult to cultivate and grow.

00:27:06.180 It takes a lot of sacrifice.

00:27:07.460 But for a generation that is averse to true sacrifice and self-denial, wow, what an opportunity to look righteous and to sound awesome and virtuous and selfless by just wearing a mask and scolding other people for not wearing a mask.

00:27:22.080 That's a very easy way to kind of, you know, get your virtue points.

00:27:28.040 Yeah.

00:27:28.380 No, I think that's strong.

00:27:30.100 Well, and obviously, you know, it feels like now we're coming out, although I just had to travel again this last weekend.

00:27:36.780 And so I'm so not used to wearing a mask.

00:27:40.080 So I walk into the airport.

00:27:41.100 I don't even realize I'm not wearing one until I come up to the TSA check place.

00:27:45.500 That's how little the mask means now.

00:27:48.140 And then the lady's looking at me like, you have to wear it.

00:27:50.780 And I said, oh, yeah.

00:27:51.500 So I'm pulling out and then I'm on this whole thing.

00:27:54.320 I can't breathe.

00:27:55.120 I'm on the airplane.

00:27:56.380 And I just thought the whole time I'm sitting there and I'm like, why are we still doing this here?

00:28:00.600 Like in all the rules and they tear everything and you got to sip and chew and underneath the mask.

00:28:06.940 You just went through it probably flying there.

00:28:08.400 Well, I have, let's see, I have a totally mesh mask.

00:28:12.060 And so it's completely just porous.

00:28:15.200 And so it's not actually doing anything.

00:28:17.060 So if you are someone who thinks that a mask is helping you not get COVID, then you don't want to sit by me on a plane because that's what I have.

00:28:24.680 I never wore a mask and I never caught anything.

00:28:29.240 Yeah.

00:28:29.560 Well, you've got a mask.

00:28:30.780 A beard's quite the mask.

00:28:32.540 Yeah, it works.

00:28:32.880 Maybe, but we ran into a problem because people would come and they wanted me to baptize them.

00:28:39.340 And I said, well, maybe some kind of rope trick.

00:28:42.360 I get a rope around you.

00:28:43.600 But I have to stay six feet away from you at all times because I can't snatch you on the wall.

00:28:48.140 So I said, I'll tell you what, let's do the one who raises the dead.

00:28:52.400 Let's go with him and let's just go ahead and baptize and we'll see.

00:28:56.780 But I never wore a mask and never caught anything.

00:29:00.220 Show Allie the move you pulled.

00:29:02.940 The one time you went into your doctor and the woman told you, oh, sir, you've got to have a mask.

00:29:08.120 Show her the move you pulled.

00:29:09.760 You remember what it was?

00:29:10.760 Yeah, I just said, you're talking about it right now?

00:29:14.960 She said, yeah.

00:29:15.500 I said, okay.

00:29:17.600 Well, I just went like that.

00:29:19.040 And I said, all right, what about that?

00:29:21.480 Did she accept it?

00:29:23.240 Huh?

00:29:23.580 Yeah.

00:29:26.100 They probably just looked at dad and said, get that old coot and put him somewhere. 0.97

00:29:30.960 I mean, you think about how legalistic it is, though.

00:29:33.700 I figure baptizing somebody hundreds during the COVID thing, you would think at some point the disease would jump from them to me.

00:29:44.680 Yeah.

00:29:45.080 Hundreds.

00:29:46.060 Yeah.

00:29:46.380 Yeah.

00:29:46.540 We took our kids out of school during COVID.

00:29:48.180 But you say, did anything ever happen?

00:29:49.720 No?

00:29:50.020 No.

00:29:50.360 I didn't want them to look at a mask.

00:29:52.580 I don't think we've seen yet the psychological manifestation of seeing it, like not seeing facial expressions.

00:30:00.220 Yes.

00:30:00.660 Definitely.

00:30:01.360 I'm like, I don't want my kids to.

00:30:02.980 I want to know what y'all think about that.

00:30:04.520 I actually have that as my next question.

00:30:06.000 And especially for children that have gone through this, because I don't know that all schools are clear now, most are, but even some still are being forced to wear a mask.

00:30:16.500 So what's the long-term damage of that, you think, just as a culture, I mean, in terms of what Sad just mentioned?

00:30:23.260 Well, I think for young kids, we're definitely going to see developmental delays.

00:30:27.120 We've actually already seen that.

00:30:29.040 There are some studies coming out saying that there are speech delays.

00:30:31.660 There's actually lower IQs in kids that were born during COVID.

00:30:37.660 And, you know, for a lot of parents, maybe they don't have an option.

00:30:40.280 Maybe they have to send their kid to daycare. 0.98

00:30:41.760 They have to send their kid to a school that has, you know, a mask requirement.

00:30:46.380 And so I'm not putting all the blame on the parents.

00:30:49.260 But also, there are a lot of parents.

00:30:50.720 I see, you know, there are kids playing in parks in our neighborhood, and the kids have masks on, and the parents don't, so it's crazy.

00:30:57.780 So I do think we're going to see developmental delays.

00:30:59.900 I think we're probably going to see speech delays.

00:31:02.600 But I also think that it just kind of creates a culture of distrust and division.

00:31:06.540 In a time where division is one of our biggest problems, and we're talking about the importance of loving our neighbor, well, I mean, if you regard your child and you teach your child to regard other people primarily as a vector of a virus,

00:31:20.220 and as safety, as the first priority in everything, you are not discipling your kids to be a self-denying Christian and following the Jesus that touched lepers, for sure.

00:31:32.300 But also, I think it just creates a culture of fear in general, even outside of the church.

00:31:37.800 And that just makes me sad.

00:31:39.060 It makes me sad.

00:31:39.720 I don't think that creates a strong, cohesive society.

00:31:42.860 Yeah, I would argue, too, that I think on the right sometimes that we've taken this issue and we've turned it into kind of a political football as well.

00:31:52.940 And I think we have to have the conversation going back to intimacy and what are the things that are in our culture that are blocking intimacy?

00:32:04.160 Yeah.

00:32:04.880 And certainly, you know, me not being able to see a face is a blocking of intimacy.

00:32:09.700 I remember when I first got out of college and I would jump on an airplane and really up until COVID, I'd always talk to the person next to me.

00:32:18.660 And now, since COVID, I don't talk to anybody on an airplane because it's too much work.

00:32:23.140 It's like, what?

00:32:24.400 You can't understand them.

00:32:25.680 So everyone's just sitting there and nobody's communicating.

00:32:28.580 And then we wonder why Karen blows her top or whatever, and everyone's so angry or we're not connecting.

00:32:36.620 I think that there was a direct correlation with a lot of the racial problems that we've had in the church as well.

00:32:42.980 That all manifested and came out after COVID because we weren't meeting together.

00:32:47.860 Like the church that you're at, that Jill and I were at for a long time, is probably 50% African-American.

00:32:53.860 And so we were coming together on Sunday morning and we may have had, there may have been cultural differences in the body and all that, but we were coming together as the body of Christ.

00:33:03.420 And it was like, man, I got it.

00:33:04.880 We got to do life together and figure this out.

00:33:06.480 And even, I mean, there's Democrats in that church that we love and that we're, and we differ on things, but man, we're coming together.

00:33:12.440 And then when COVID happens, it just isolates everybody.

00:33:14.980 And then we're behind a screen and now I don't have to do life with you.

00:33:19.800 Well, that's a precursor for division and fights because I don't have to do life with you anymore.

00:33:24.960 And I think it's part of kind of this idea of like, like even like the metaverse and everything's going moving towards isolating people, keeping them in their home.

00:33:35.580 And I think the church has to come in at this point and we have to speak a message of not just redemption, but also restoration that we can restore back local communities and cultures and things of this sort.

00:33:47.600 But, and to me, I think that's why the local church and I think God's moving in like small churches again, which is really cool.

00:33:53.960 You know, like, it's like God's moving these little small communities and he's like, and you see it all over the country, all over the world right now.

00:33:59.380 Let's take another break.

00:34:04.060 Well, no, you're right.

00:34:05.180 And so I, I speak at a lot of events around the country and it's so evident that people want to be together, you know, cause I mean the enthusiasm level for places I've been, and I've been to a lot of, you know,

00:34:17.700 quote unquote blue states that have been under super strict lockdowns more than we have here or you have in Texas.

00:34:24.040 And, you know, they're just like, we can't wait to get together.

00:34:27.160 So it's just like these events are just bursting at the seams, you know, because it is, it's, it's been able to look at faces again and have conversations and being able to hear, you know, what people are saying and to be able to see that, I think, which is powerful.

00:34:39.780 So, so Allie, it's, you know, I follow you on social media and it's very evident that you're pro-God, pro-life, pro-God's order when it comes to gender and, you know, important things that we share with you.

00:34:52.880 What do you see as sort of the greatest threats to, to Christianity, to conservative, to traditional, you know, life in America?

00:35:03.100 What kind of, what do you see in, in terms of your discussions you're having and, you know, with the people you have on your podcast?

00:35:09.760 Well, I think my greatest concern is actually within the church and people who profess to be Christian teachers compromising on things that have to do with the creation order, the created order.

00:35:21.960 Genesis 1 issues.

00:35:22.960 I think really the big one is sexuality.

00:35:24.840 You see that kind of compromise first because it's personal.

00:35:28.780 People know someone who, you know, is gay or says that they are the opposite gender.

00:35:33.540 And because we don't want to offend, no one wants to offend, no one wants to, you know, be accused of being hateful or something.

00:35:41.220 That's typically, I think, the first thing that people compromise on, not to mention just the, the huge influence that the culture has on people.

00:35:51.700 And the pressure that young people feel, especially to be accepting of that. 0.68

00:35:55.920 I mean, it's considered not just bigoted and hateful, but you're almost like a social pariah if you don't accept this ridiculous, you know, maxim that trans women are women or whatever it is. 0.90

00:36:06.580 And I see compromise in that within the church. 0.91

00:36:10.240 Absolutely.

00:36:10.720 You know, people trying to say that that's not really what God meant in Genesis 1 and that we're just supposed to love.

00:36:18.880 Kind of going back to our earlier conversation about what actually love is, I still see that as a big fault line, as a big dividing line.

00:36:26.440 People who say that love is really just this superficial affirmation of people just being nice to people, just staying and doing what the culture wants you to say and do.

00:36:38.480 And you mentioned 1 John 4, 8, that God is love.

00:36:42.700 And something that I like to remind my audience is that we can't out love God.

00:36:47.920 And that's kind of what you see from some people who say, well, it's actually more loving to say that God did not create us male and female, that the definition of marriage is not between a man and a woman.

00:36:57.200 It's actually more loving to not say that to simply affirm people.

00:37:00.660 And so what they're essentially saying is that they have a higher standard of love than the God who says he is love.

00:37:07.240 But that's impossible because we're not love, but God is love.

00:37:10.620 So everything that God says is good and right and true or bad or wrong and a lie.

00:37:15.920 He says those things out of love.

00:37:17.760 So the most loving thing that we can do, and this is something I definitely want to emphasize to women who I think are most tempted in this way of just being like,

00:37:26.580 I don't want to be seen as hateful, the most loving thing that we can do is agree with God.

00:37:34.320 Yes, the world calls it controversial to say that God made us male and female or that abortion is wrong because God made us in his image.

00:37:43.040 But these are not political issues for the Christian.

00:37:45.400 They're not culture war issues for the Christian.

00:37:47.780 These are pre-political, pre-cultural, pre-societal issues for the Christian. 0.76

00:37:53.000 They're biblical issues that have become cultural and political.

00:37:56.820 And so it is the most loving thing I can do to agree with the God who is love about these so-called controversial culture war issues.

00:38:04.880 And so, again, it goes back to how we define love.

00:38:08.900 We define love by the God who is love and his standards and his law and what he says is right and wrong and good and bad, truth and a lie.

00:38:18.280 That, I think, maybe that's always been the essential problem within Christianity. 0.96

00:38:21.760 I mean, it kind of goes back to the garden.

00:38:24.680 Did God really say?

00:38:26.400 I still think that's the question that women and probably men, too, are being asked. 0.98

00:38:30.780 Did God really say that this is the definition of marriage or whatever it is?

00:38:35.640 And so, yeah, I think that's the issue, especially among young women today is caving to the culture when it comes to superficial worldly definitions of love. 0.99

00:38:45.460 I think it's a fear of being marginalized.

00:38:50.680 I mean, just confession, I mean, I fear that in my own life is like, okay, I don't want to be marginalized or cast into this particular category.

00:38:57.340 And I think that a lot of people are pushing back on terms like culture war.

00:39:03.100 Some of it, I mean, honestly, some of it, I'm like, I get a part of what they're saying.

00:39:08.260 You know, like we have, I think the church has taken, there's a segment of the church, and I've been guilty of this, of taking these things that you're talking about and turning them into issues and into political issues as opposed to, you know, we're really talking about people.

00:39:24.420 And we're talking about God's design, and I think we've kind of divorced that, and I think it's paved the way a lot of the kind of the, if you want to use the term like the woke left in the church, I think a lot of that is a reaction to hyper-nationalistic tendencies on the right.

00:39:41.220 Although, you know, we can't avoid to take pride in our country.

00:39:44.100 I don't think there's anything wrong with that.

00:39:45.480 But I think when we divorce that and that becomes primary over who God is and our allegiance to his kingdom, I think it paves the way for this.

00:39:53.940 And I think we need like an honesty.

00:39:56.180 John Stonestreet did a great podcast on Friday on this idea of this identity.

00:40:03.860 But I'm sure you've probably read Truman's book.

00:40:07.000 The Rise and Fall of the Modern Self.

00:40:08.420 Yes, and I thought he did such a great job at like detailing like how we got here and how we got to this place where even sexuality, for example, how did we get to a place where this is our identity now?

00:40:23.460 Like my sexual desire is my identity.

00:40:26.620 I see it on the right too, though.

00:40:28.560 It's manifested in a different way.

00:40:30.320 But I think kingdom people have to come in and bridge that gap.

00:40:34.620 I mean, do you see this as well?

00:40:36.120 Yeah, it's something I talk about in my book that when you – I think every problem that we have goes back to godlessness.

00:40:43.000 When you exchange the God of Scripture for the God of self, you worship yourself. 0.95

00:40:47.720 You lay anything on the altar of yourself, including truth, including other people's interests or needs.

00:40:55.300 You are completely self-serving in the same way that when you worship anything, you are going to serve that thing.

00:41:00.900 So when you exchange the God of Scripture for the God of self, something that I talk about in the book is that you start to take on two main values.

00:41:11.380 And I think that your primary values become autonomy and authenticity.

00:41:18.180 Now, autonomy and authenticity are not bad in themselves.

00:41:21.040 But when they become primary, when they are not submitted to God's law, then they just become selfishness.

00:41:28.100 Then you start to find your identity and your purpose inside yourself.

00:41:31.120 So autonomy, having complete control over everything you do, authenticity, just being yourself.

00:41:36.980 When those are your two main values, well, I just want to be myself and do what I want to do and I control my body, you get all kinds of immorality.

00:41:43.820 That's how you justify abortion.

00:41:45.540 That's how you justify gender switching. 1.00

00:41:47.800 That's how you justify all kinds of things that we do with our body because we worship ourselves.

00:41:52.340 We worship our bodies.

00:41:53.340 We worship our autonomy.

00:41:54.380 We worship our so-called authenticity.

00:41:57.320 Autonomy and authenticity can be good things when they are subjected to the law of God.

00:42:01.200 But when you are only subjected to yourself, then, like I said, you find your identity and your purpose and your calling in yourself.

00:42:09.060 And again, it goes back to that question that we asked earlier, how's that working out for you?

00:42:12.300 So it doesn't seem like it's working out very well.

00:42:14.820 Yeah.

00:42:15.220 And on that, let's take our last break.

00:42:22.220 Yeah, I think that's so good.

00:42:23.620 I was thinking where we're at, like Phil did a documentary film in 2000 and was it 15?

00:42:30.800 2015?

00:42:31.580 Yep.

00:42:32.160 And the essential message of it was built kind of off this, like a Francis Schaeffer concept of conservative humanism is still humanism.

00:42:41.540 Like I think he said it, the problem is not conservative or liberal.

00:42:46.920 Humanism doesn't matter the variation or the coloration of it.

00:42:49.540 It's the humanism that when we're getting the thing from within us as opposed to appealing to the triune God.

00:42:57.760 You know, I think that's – and I think the church has – particularly when we talk about politics, man, we're not – conservative politics, if we're being honest, we have – it's bankrupt because it's not founded on the God who is there.

00:43:13.880 It's not founded on a non-arbitrary anchor to reality, the Imago Dei, what the Declaration of Independence says, that rights come from God.

00:43:22.120 That's not the argument that people are making anymore.

00:43:24.720 It's supposed to.

00:43:25.320 That is what conservatism is supposed to be.

00:43:27.380 But I agree it's kind of gotten detached from that.

00:43:29.840 It's gotten – and so I think that the reason why we're losing culturally is because I have a hard time carrying the water for this current political movement on the right because I'm like, that's not of God.

00:43:41.180 Like, that's just as evil –

00:43:43.680 Like what?

00:43:44.340 Like, for example, like, we're not making the case for liberty based on the God who is there, and we're going to get behind – or I'll give you an example.

00:43:54.100 Like, we're going to – like, the bumper stickers, I see these stickers on the gas tanks now, and it's Biden pointing to the gas number.

00:44:00.840 I did that.

00:44:02.160 I'm like – and I'm not for Biden because he spent a lot of money too, but he wasn't the first person to spend money.

00:44:08.320 Well, the simplicity of it is governments, man-made constructs, governments.

00:44:15.840 The problem with them, as it's been proven over and over, the empires rise and all of them collapse.

00:44:26.360 It's because governments can't remove your sin, and governments can't raise you from the dead.

00:44:36.000 It's not possible.

00:44:37.380 So somewhere, the reality is right in front of you, and you say, it's going to take something bigger than governments to remove my sin and the escape from Satan, sin, guilt, law, put you under grace.

00:44:57.120 The grave, you say, only God can do that.

00:45:00.480 So that's where the governments are giving you the impression that they can fix all of your problems.

00:45:09.780 That's two of them that they can't touch.

00:45:12.080 They can't do it.

00:45:13.780 So your faith has to be rooted in something larger than governments, man-made constructs.

00:45:20.280 And you mentioned a while ago, we're members of the kingdom of God.

00:45:24.700 We're operating under a king, Jesus.

00:45:28.760 And you say, and we're in a constitutional republic.

00:45:33.100 It's good, but it does not meet.

00:45:35.960 Who's the founding father you quote about our system is wholly inadequate without God and the Bible?

00:45:48.320 Who's the second president?

00:45:49.680 What's his name?

00:45:50.960 Adams?

00:45:51.580 Yeah.

00:45:51.880 John Adams said that.

00:45:53.080 Yeah.

00:45:53.580 That you, without morality and without the Bible, without God, that you can't, the system will break down.

00:46:01.560 Yeah.

00:46:01.840 It's made for religious people. 1.00

00:46:03.900 That's right.

00:46:04.340 Is what he said.

00:46:05.380 Because.

00:46:05.920 He read Madison.

00:46:06.700 And when he read the Constitution, he said, this Constitution was written for a moral and religious people.

00:46:12.260 It is wholly inadequate for any other.

00:46:15.620 Meaning, if the people that are underneath and live by the Constitution, once you lose your religion and your faith in God, this is not going to work out for you.

00:46:31.120 It's really, to Allie's point, that self-discipline then becomes from something other than government.

00:46:37.720 That is correct.

00:46:38.460 And so, therefore, if that's how I approach life, then I can function in a society and in a system.

00:46:44.620 But you take that away, and I'm only depending on that entity to put that in my life, you're going to fail.

00:46:51.080 Because, like you said, either side is going to lose self-discipline and then only look for power and how to rule over people.

00:46:57.040 I feel love, and it's separate and apart from governments.

00:47:03.080 When governments, and even our own Constitution or Republic, when they say they love me, when God says it, I get it.

00:47:13.220 But when they say it, I'm like, I don't think they love me anymore.

00:47:16.520 Well, Dad used to say that.

00:47:17.580 He said, when's the last time you heard a politician say, I love you, deeply?

00:47:21.200 And you think about it, not very often.

00:47:23.000 I've never seen politicians get up and say, the first thing I want y'all to know is, I love you with all my heart.

00:47:29.860 They don't say that.

00:47:31.480 When I did that, when there was a speech up there, the guy in Wisconsin, what was his name?

00:47:36.080 Oh, yeah, the governor.

00:47:37.320 What was his name?

00:47:37.840 Yeah, the governor.

00:47:38.380 Ran for president, yeah.

00:47:40.020 Ran for president.

00:47:40.940 Oh, yeah.

00:47:41.440 I spoke before he spoke.

00:47:42.900 Walker, Scott Walker.

00:47:44.100 Yeah, and I just mentioned that, and he got up there on the mic, and he said, the first thing I want you folks to know, and it's really true,

00:47:51.080 he said, I got to thinking about it, he said, I don't tell them I love them.

00:47:55.900 He said, well, this dude just walked up here, old Robinson, and he said, I'm going to tell every one of you, I do love you.

00:48:01.900 I forgot that.

00:48:02.940 You had a repentance.

00:48:03.900 You had a response right there to your first sermon.

00:48:07.140 Well, I thought about that in Romans, because Zach, in the movie we talked, Rome was one of the civilizations we talked about.

00:48:13.680 So, Buma and Paul said in Romans 1, when you exchange the glory of God for, and then he went into what they were doing,

00:48:21.880 but you can just draw a blank there and put anything in the blank.

00:48:25.160 Anytime you exchange the glory of God for whatever it is that's currently the hot rage in your culture, then you're going to have problems.

00:48:31.620 And that's what happened to Rome.

00:48:33.240 That's what happened to everyone since then, and it's what we're seeing in America.

00:48:36.140 Because they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he, God, gave them over to a depraved mind to do what ought not to be done.

00:48:52.740 And you look at that, and every empire you see that rise and fall, that's why they all fall.

00:49:00.280 Well, it scares me when I look at our country and I say, whew, 75 years of watching it, I'm like, I've never seen it like this, ever.

00:49:09.020 Yeah, scary.

00:49:10.640 So, we're at the end of our podcast, Alice.

00:49:13.640 I want to, Relatable, which is on Blaze TV, but of course, anywhere you get your podcast, you can get that.

00:49:19.240 And also, You're Not Enough, and That's Okay, which is the book we've referenced quite a bit today.

00:49:24.500 So, be sure and look for Allie.

00:49:25.760 We're going to have, we have what we call an unashamed, an overtime segment, which, by the way, blazetv.com slash unashamed is how you subscribe to get this extra content.

00:49:37.060 And on there, I wanted to hear about your personal, we didn't have time to get to it on the regular podcast, your own personal spiritual journey.

00:49:43.640 So, we want to explore that a little bit.

00:49:44.940 So, come on over if you hadn't already signed up to Blaze TV and do that now.

00:49:51.020 Thanks for listening to the Unashamed podcast.

00:49:53.580 Help us out by rating us on iTunes.

00:49:56.640 And don't miss an episode by subscribing on YouTube, and be sure to click that little bell to get notified about new episodes.

00:50:03.660 And for even more content that you won't get anywhere else, subscribe to Blaze TV at blazetv.com slash unashamed.

Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - March 26, 2022

BONUS： God’s Love vs. Worldly Love with Allie & Phil Robertson

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